Episode 19: Unique You: How Individuality Works and Why It Matters의 전체 녹취록

suppose, to some extent what I do in my book. And that is to put personality and behavior in the context of a human life. You know, at beginning of the book, I had these four laws of a unique individuality of UI, which is number one, nobody like you, nobody just like you has ever lived on this planet before nor ever will again. Law number two, you don't really know who you are because a lot of your processing as Freud recognized is unconscious. So, you know, we have swathes of activities and biases and so on, which Hugh in his wonderful podcast explores, I think, very well, which we have almost no access. We can do something to control them, but we don't do it terribly well. The third law is a corollary of that, says, well, we don't really know anybody else. Nobody else really knows us. So if you think you're going to inhabit somebody else's life or going to see from their perspective, think again. We can share a great deal. but we can't see with another's eyes. And the fourth law is these first three laws might seem to be rather bleak and take you away from your fellow humans, but the fourth law says we have to connect. Of course, Ricardo, the economist, was one of the first to recognize the importance of our connection because the connection of unique individuals is what makes all kinds of creative enterprise possible. It's what makes culture possible. It's what makes society possible. So my book has a very broad scope, both from the the deepest inside as it were of human individuality through to how cultures evolve and how society is functioned. Hugh Massie: Yeah, and and and you know, I think that there's you know, in that framework a lot of very interesting points because I think that none of us ever really know ourselves. It's always a constant peeling back of the layers and every life experience, in a way, if you if you want to call it that, teaches NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: you something about yourself, but it also it shapes you. I I think that I've always been very big on the point that. You know, DNA behavior we've been very big on is that the very early life experiences that you have, NIGEL: Yep. Hugh Massie: starting from conception, are very shaping. NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: So that by the time you're three, there is a hard wiring there. But that doesn't mean that that you stop evolving, getting shaped as a person or learning or learning more, but what's hard-coded in there is fairly set from early in life. What mixture of that is genetics NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: versus the early life experience is difficult to to break that down. Yeah. NIGEL: I tried to unravel that in the book a little bit. And I talk about it as being like, you're like somebody who's dropped onto a stage in a play that's already been going on. Because I mean, what you say is absolutely right, But of course, the story's been going on before you were born. And your parents have a history and your grandparents have a history. And my book is full of stories. And in some of those stories, see people telling... how much they're carrying legacies of generations through culture and so on, through these imprints that then, as you quite rightly say, take place in childhood. But the genetic uniqueness is a starting point, and it's an endpoint to some extent because it filters everything else. so we are, I follow the dictum of them. There was a man called Sir William Osler who was a surgeon general of America, he was a Canadian actually in the 19th century. And he said, don't ask what disease a patient has, ask what patient the disease has. Well, I moderate this to say, don't ask what world you're in, ask what you the world is in. And if you think you're having the same experience as somebody sitting next to you, think again, because for them, it'll have a meaning that's entirely their own. And moreover, one of the things, Hugh, what you think about this, it's one of the things I noticed in psychology was the complete absence of any idea about free will. Now, we don't have free will in the sense that we're not free, but we certainly have will and we can at any point in time, stop the action and walk off stage or walk onto another stage or, you know, we can do things in just because we have the gravitational forces. of our personality and our upbringing and these other factors that you mentioned, which are so strong, doesn't mean to say you can't resist them. mean, gravity doesn't make us lie on the floor, it enables us to fly. So, unless if you take that metaphor, this is the message, because people say my book is very optimistic, and I think it is an underlying core of deep optimism in my book about how we can not be masters of our own destiny, but we can certainly steer. Hugh Massie: Yeah, I say to people n to not be the victim, be the victor. And so while you might be born into a set of circumstances, for example, you know, when I my father died when I was one. you know, he had a terminal brain tumor diagnosed when I was about six months old. My mother right at that point got pregnant. So a month after my dad died, my brother's born. you know, and I think it's interesting because NIGEL: Gosh, Hugh Massie: Because it and that's not a sob story, but I think it's more that I've learned to embrace what that means, at least what I think it means. But in a way, my NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: life path is different to my brother's, who was born after NIGEL: yet. Hugh Massie: that. and and and and and so while we came up brought up in the same home, same opportunity, same school, we like some of the same NIGEL: Yep. Hugh Massie: sports, which happened a bit like cricket. which is very hereditary in our family, tennis. NIGEL: Thank Hugh Massie: but there's a there's a there's some very big personality differences, you know, i i in you know in in NIGEL: I mean, what you say is so interesting and it's so typical of so many of my students, typical and nothing is typical because they're all very different. But in the book, for

example, I talk about Hugh Massie: Yeah. NIGEL: Elvis Presley. Well, Elvis Presley was one of a pair of twins who died. The other twin died. And, you know, that was hugely consequential for his upbringing, how he was brought up and his view of himself and the world and so on. And to some extent, the tragedy that overtook him in the end. So we are part of this drama. In fact, one of the elements in the book, one of the, you could call it the methodology, and your viewers may be interested in the methodology, because I think it's a powerful and universal methodology for understanding a human life, is what I call my 4D framework. And the 4Ds, and these are like the four strands of colors that weave the unique fabric of a human life. So if you look at your life, you can unpick these different elements and see how they, I mean, they always flow together. Each one is independent on the other. The first is destiny. Well, by destiny, I don't mean what's foretold. I mean the givens in your life, what you were born with, the stuff you can't fix. And that's, as you said earlier, your DNA and your upbringing, the things from that early child, you're carrying those memories and so on. The second is drama, and that is life is inherently unpredictable. are improvisational creatures. We make things up as we go along. We have to because that's the way life is and we're very good at it. But the big events in life are life changing and often we're playing catch up. We are adapting to things that have happened that we didn't start necessarily. And the third D is deliberation. That is this free will idea or the will idea that you can start things and you can stop things. You can walk away from one life into another. You can say, I've had enough of this. I'm going to change my life. And people do. A lot of deliberation takes place in the aftermath. So I think in after the drama, when you figure out, that's what happened to me. That's what I now need to do. And the fourth is deliberation, is development, which is the learning that you can't control, stuff that goes on without your knowing it. And as well as the stuff, you deliberately engineer in your own development. So the courses you've been on and so on. But a lot of the most important learning we have in life comes from comes from things that happen to us and give us wisdom despite ourselves. Hugh Massie: Yep. Yeah, I think that the you know, I think what you're saying's What I agree with, I think that for me it it's the more that you understand self, and that's again is a continuous life journey, probably the better you can understand NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: the situ what to do in the situations that might come up. Or if you're going to make an about turn in life, you know, what should that choice be? I think that the clearer that you can understand what I call the hard wiring part. which is really where your energy is flowing, NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: then you can impose free will, right? Because just because

you and you NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: know while your life path might say to flow down a certain river, there might be some consequences down that that you don't want to face and you've got to go and do something else. Or I look at myself and say, okay, I was trained as a an a I was very as a kid, very focused on money, at least that's what everybody thought. Went and trained as an accountant. I was very good at it, tax specialist. Set up a family office type business, financial business. But really I had a ho a very strong desire, like you, I think, Nigel, was to understand the human being. And really what I was fascinated with was what were the choices people made with money, which is what came back. Not about NIGEL: So. Hugh Massie: making money, but what were the decisions they made. And That came back to understanding NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: unique individuals. And that's wrapped up starting from your very early life. and and you know, so that's NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: but I've made a number of choices in there to in a way go from the numbers side of the world to the human behavior side, from living in Sydney NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: and a great life to living in Atlanta, Georgia. you know, NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: which is where I came on the behavioral path. But that's that's NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: free will there. I'm sure that's free will. I don't NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: think it was just predestined completely. Maybe it was. you know, my mother's English living in Australia. NIGEL: No, and I think... The other element of that of course is the self. mean the hard wiring as you call it. I this involves I suppose things to do with your constitution and things to do with the way your brain functions, your cognitive system and your emotional system and so on. All of which to some degree can be measured. But then there's a whole trance of stuff that is fundamentally you could call social, which is the self. That is not the I, but the me. And the me is your image, the idea of yourself that you have grown with, that's based upon autobiographical memory and based upon relationships and what people say about you and what people believe about you and what you believe about yourself because of what other people say about you. And so we put together this image and it's continually changing. And sometimes... And the self is a great producer of narratives and it's the narratives that drive behavior. And certainly when I've done in behavioral, my studies of behavioral finance and other, other, other areas, the narratives that people tend to bring into situations are hugely consequential. And some of them are very damaging. Some of them, you know, our parents and educators and all sorts of people could give you narratives about who you are that are really not. is a suit of clothing that doesn't fit you. And I find this particularly interesting. Hugh Massie: It's it's fault. It's a serious It's a series of it's really false beliefs. Yep. NIGEL:

I also wanted to make a comment about money, since you mentioned money. Your viewers may be interested to know that I blog on LinkedIn. I also have a course on the psychology of money on LinkedIn. But one of my recent blogs on LinkedIn, and please do follow me and correspond with me if you're interested. But one of them I did recently was about what happens to people when they get suddenly rich and why it doesn't make them happy. And one of the chief reasons is all of a sudden they don't realize to what extent they are taken from a world of which they are competent and they know their way around into a world where they're not competent and they don't know their way around. I mean, it's not for nothing that the rich hang out with the rich. don't, because they don't have any choice apart from the other, they don't know who else to trust. don't know who their friends are and so on. And if you are if you win the lottery and so on, it's a it's it's extremely become a famous football. You these footballers, the World Cup, a lot of them need a great deal of surrogate parenting to avoid themselves going off the rails because they're they're living in a in a world which is very strange and has and is temporary as well. So, you know, the is the self can get quite deluded about it's gonna be okay wherever I go and wherever I do. Whereas in fact, actually, you may find yourself in a world where the boundaries and the contours are quite unfamiliar. I'm sorry I interrupted you, Hugh, but I just wanted to make that point about money because I thought it's an interesting, as it were, extension to some extent of the point you were making. Hugh Massie: Well well, I think money's a money's a huge emotional, you know, has a huge, you know, emotional forces. We we do a lot talk a lot about the energy of money, you know, and it has you know, a huge impact on people even if they're not aware of it. And even wealthy people face extreme pressures, with money, NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: depending on how they came into it. There can be the windfall. from selling a business or being a sports star and getting paid a lot, but there can be inheritance as well. And and and that's NIGEL: Yep. Hugh Massie: that's problematic. And then you've got to process, you know, a lot of people are processing their family life that comes with the NIGEL: Thank you. Hugh Massie: money or that's how the money came about. And they've got different perspectives on that. and I think those come from, you know, our unique individualism. That's why I'm fascinated by your book unique you because I think you're trying to we're moving to the holy grail of understanding NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: people as unique individuals to then unpack NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: how do they need to be treated, dealt with, managed, or managed themselves, related to, interacted with. I think that's really the to me is the big point in here. you know, you mentioned Taylor made soup. I I've always wanted to put a tailor made suit on every person. and I think with AI today, we can get we can't hundred percent get there, but we can get closer. you know. NIGEL: I agree. I think we're entering an age of UI of unique individuality as well as an age of AI. And as I say in the book, I think it's our last line of defense against AI to some extent, because we got to crave the things that AI can't do. And you can see that already. I one of my sons is a performing musician and live performance is something people really wants. Recording music doesn't really do it for you. And live contact in, you know, what we're doing now, we're trying to make it as lifelike as possible that you can see the person. So we, these human aspects are increasingly, I think, going to be to be valued. But at the same time, we are entering a world of personalization. So we already have personalized marketing, which is a pain in the pain in the neck, we think we all agree. But also we got personalized medicine, which cures the pain in the neck, you could say. But that's going to come to so many areas of life. One of the most interesting principles, if you don't mind a little theoretical digression here, in the evolutionary theory, is the idea of niche construction. You know, we have natural selection and we sexual selection, which is about choosing the right partner. And those are the things that shape most species, the social species especially. But some species like beavers construct environments for themselves. And human beings are niche constructors par excellence. It's one of the things we do best. So every organization is to some extent an experiment in can it deal with the challenges of the world around it and can it satisfy the interests and needs of the people it needs to run it as members? And can you fulfill those two criteria? Well, the idea of niche construction, I think when you think about it, means that actually we're going to get more and more kind of unique organizations. where you can enable the functionality of your organization in its own way, in the best way possible through how you configure, how you make decisions, how you communicate, how you use tools. I can see it at level of households and work. And I think we're really on the baby slopes of a big mountain here. And I think it'll be our grandchildren who actually are the ones who begin to understand this because we're in the very, very early stages. that's as long as nobody with the power of AI blows us all up out of sheer spite, which is probably the biggest threat we face from AI, if you ask me. Hugh Massie: Well, I I I think that while we're addressing that, and you mentioned a few interesting words there, you know, personalisation, Nigel, and that, you know, we've got personalised marketing, personalised health. But even if I took personalised marketing and a lot of personalized services, they are still driven from simple demographic or basic demographic and financial information. That are not yet getting to individuality

in any near level. You know, I'm on a quest NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: to deal with that through using psychometric instruments that can go of levels deeper. That's not saying that the psychometric instrument knows everything about the person because it doesn't. But it can go beyond that. And I think that you're opening up the door with unique you and and and this conversation about you are your unique individuality to really as you say, to sow the seeds that we can go further. And AI potentially, because of, you know, algorithms and you know quantum technology that's coming, can allow us to deal with every human being, uniquely. and that's also if the y human being wants to be dealt with uniquely as well. I think we've got to you know allow choice in there as well. But There isn't much private information left in the world anyway. But, you know, I think that's the thing I'd like to make sure we're clear about, you know, for the audience on personalization, that it can go a lot further than it is. AI NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: offers us the opportunity if it's done the right way. so that UI NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: does equal AI in a way, or a UI is forefront, powered with AI. That but we're not there yet. There's a lot of assumptions. NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: still made in AI models. And and this is the problem I think you were alluding to with behavioral economics, you know, that there's been professors, you know, like Daniel Kahneman, have done great work. It's it's opened up our minds to new what you know new thinking about decision making behavior. But it's still left saying, well, or the world's still saying, or everybody makes, you know, values gains two times to the one of a loss, right? you know, the loss aversion theory and or you know wants to avoid losses two times to the making of a gain. but we're all unique. So that can't be that can't be true. Some of it's f it's ten times, some of it's three, and some of it's one, right? NIGEL: Yes, it isn't Exactly. mean, that's completely right. but because this is the way, I mean, I think you have to look at the nature of science and economics as a science and psychology as a science. And really, their whole history has been dedicated to making reliable generalizations. to saying that under these conditions, this will happen under these conditions, most people will do this. And that's fine. And we, and that's very useful and very helpful because it does tell us about, about hard drive biases that we have. but of course for them. What we call uniqueness is they call error variants. They call error. In other words, this is the stuff you can't explain is the people who don't fit in the frame. Well, there's not enough of them to be a headache. But yet when you look more closely, as you say, people are spread across the spectrum. I prospect theory, the idea that the value of loss is... exceeds those gains is present in other species from us. It's not just humans. Birds will forage much more riskily

when there's food shortages and so on. all of those things happen. But again, even birds are individuals and they do it differently. And if you look at any individual, can say, well, if you look at the whole, I'm sure your followers know about cognitive biases and the whole suite of them, confirmation bias and so on. We all have them, but we all have our own unique, as it were, profile of those biases. And we'd do as well to say, you know, what's your bias? What's the one that trips you up most often? I use this word zemblanity in the book. I've stolen it from a novelist, William Boyd, who said zemblanity is kind of bad stuff that happens to us because we make it happen. And we do, you we make the same mistakes over and over again, but they are mistakes, they're characteristic of us and as individuals. And it's as well to be aware of them. And I think that's one of the things I discovered when I studying traders on trading floors is that, there are traders who had much more self-awareness about those biases and therefore the power to try to correct them than those who believed. that by power of will they could move the market, know, who are ultimately fools. And of course they congratulated Hugh Massie: Yeah, that NIGEL: them and congratulated themselves when the tide raises all boats, they go look how clever I am, I made a profit, you know. Hugh Massie: So just just to switch gears, 'cause something I found very interesting in the book and I think it's would be interesting for the listeners, is is is the importance and the power of relationships. Because I think that I've always seen that relationships with people, and that could be a short term interaction or it could be a long term interaction. are part of shaping who you are and the life path that you follow. and that yeah so I'm just interested in your you know you to share more perspective on perhaps on the power of relationships NIGEL: Yes, gladly, thank you. Yeah. Hugh Massie: to your life journey and becoming the person who you are. NIGEL: Yes, well, I mean, there's something called the reflected self, which is the idea that you get to know yourself through relationships. And I think there's a lot to that. know, if you're children who are feral, who are rather rare cases of kids have been found raised by dogs and things, when when humans have been abandoned by humans. struggle hugely to form relationships. Forming relationships is such an essential part. And indeed, on the chapter on relationships, I start out talking about Rabindranath Tagore, the Indian poet and writer, having a relationship with a stray dog, and he wrote a rather nice poem about a dog. And I thought the relationship between humans and dogs is very interesting, because I had a dog and I lost a dog, and it gave me feelings that I didn't know. I had really that you could have these feelings about an animal. And it was kind of a mystery to me about, so what part of being human is this engaged with? And of course, you know, with humans, the story is much more complex. I think I'd like to break it down really to three elements and three elements to some extent correspond. to what I use as the three elements of identity. There's the element of identity, which I call the beast being, which is you as an animal and those instincts and those feelings and so on. And we have a capacity for resonance. I think we have a, imagine yourself as being made of a unique substance, which of course you are. Well, unique substance, the whole concept of resonance is what frequency does something vibrate, for example. know, wood vibrates at a different resonance to steel. So, so we have this capacity for resonance and we resonate with situations, we resonate with people, and we resonate with music, we resonate with things in ways that are quite mysterious to us. And of course, that's largely what's happening between you and the dog or you and even with a baby and so on, something is happening of which you have very little control. And it's a very powerful sort of resonance. The second element, is the I part of you, the part of you that is now listening to me and me speaking and you joining in and so on. we all, this is ego and we live in this window of consciousness. And this part of the relationship is harmony, is that when you're with somebody, you feel okay with that person and the being okay with somebody in your space with somebody. And we know there's people who are great for 10 minutes and that's about it, you and there are people who you really spend long periods of time Hugh Massie: Yeah. NIGEL: with and because you can rely on that harmony. And the third element is, is meaning. And that comes from the self and the self is this store of memories and identity and images and your idea about who you are, the me part of you, not the I part of you, but the me, your concept of yourself. And within that stand, you you have your own private garden, which I call the umvel, your own world. And in that private garden is congregated with the people you know and love. And they have meaning for you and you have meaning for them. And they're part of your story. And you can see that when relationships form, the balance of these changes and shifts over time, you might start out with with a lot of resonance and ego. And then as it were, the self becomes more and more important. In that sense, the person becomes more more embedded in your life and your identity. And then of course, when the person dies or goes, they leave a hole and they leave a massive hole. And there's a space there because through relationships, we connect with other worlds. We don't just connect with other people. They bring with them a whole world. that is not your world and that's the joy of relationships is to embody them. Now, we have lots more, you might think more trivial relationships like with your boss or your subordinates, they're not trivial really, no relationship is trivial. But they might be more transient

and people might have, I think, quite wrong expectations about what they're going to get out of some of these relationships. And of course, with social media, we're now in a world where it's much harder to know who to trust and who not to trust. And the person you're having a relationship may turn out to be a chatbot, you know, or Hugh Massie: Yeah. NIGEL: worse, know, or catfish or something, you know, people who disassemble. So again, I think what implication of my book is, real relationship. I do know actually people who've done a lot of online dating. not me, but younger people and so on, but who who got very disillusioned with it because it's it's it's not much better than random. and until you kind of do you kind of smell the other person really and metaphorically, do you know whether you know it looks good on paper until you even if they're honest, you that you have to have that chemistry as we call it. And that is, that's very much down to that resonance, element of relationships. Was that what you were thinking here? Hugh Massie: Definitely, I think it's yeah, I think well, I think that there's a couple of points there. I think it's probably hard to really trust someone until you actually meet them. you can get a feeling NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: online. I mean, online in this world is better than nothing. you know, just like we're talking and and in a way building some bond but about conversing with topics that we're deeply passionate about, I suppose provides some meaning, but there'd be nothing like perhaps an an in person meeting, even if it was for an hour. but it's not always possible. NIGEL: Yeah, how are we going have a beer after this, Hugh? It's not possible, unfortunately. Hugh Massie: Well, when I'm next in the UK, we will go and have a beer. NIGEL: Okay. Hugh Massie: but you know, I think the word the thing I wanted to harp on, maybe or draw to the attention for the for the audience is i and you and you somewhat mentioned it there, Nigel, was opportunities. and maybe it's just because of my lens on the lens on the world that I'm an opportunist, but and believe in opportunities. But it To my mind, it's through people that opportunities come. And so that if you can connect with the right people, people come on your path that in a way shape your destiny. Like my my path to human behavior, I already figured out personalization was about human behavior. But I needed to meet NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: someone to show me how to do it. And then my life NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: path changed. And that's when I then came to America because she set up the meetings. Now, Carol happened to be in my world and working with DNA for 24 years, but there are other people that that are very shaping on your path that might only be in your life for a month, right? But they open your eyes up to something that's very deep. good or bad, right? It it's not always NIGEL: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Hugh Massie: all good, right? but but it's part of your life learning, I think, and that shaping who you are comes from others. NIGEL: Yes. It's very interesting because in the book, amongst the many stories I tell, I'm always intrigued because often grandparents are really key figures rather than parents. know, grandparents who are free of all that control stuff that tends to bog down parent-child relationships. and then can be kind of different kinds of role models for people. But also people who just, as you say, who come from out the blue. I've had quite a few in my own life where I've come across people that... But of course, this takes us to a wider element, which I talk about quite a lot in the book, about the stages of life. And there are no fixed stages of life. Let's just get this out of the way. People have written about stages of life. You can forget all of that. They're clearly biological. you can, most you can say you've got childhood, adolescence, midlife and old age. know, but those are just boundary markers. don't tell you anything. So forget all the rest of it. Because your life is a story of chapters. And the story is... punctuated equilibrium. is a concept again from evolutionary theory. Because this is how evolution operates. Things, you get some massive events, usually climate change. And then you get some extinction event or something. And then all of sudden you get a new equilibrium, a new species come and fill the gap and then, you know, so asteroid. wiping out the dinosaurs, so that's part of punctuated equilibrium. punctuated equilibrium occurs everywhere in life and it occurs in human lives. Our lives are made up of these asteroids hitting planet you and leaving craters on planet you in which new stuff will grow and stuff will get reshaped and they can be very painful. So again, when I look at the The stories that my executives tell me, are, so many of are about, know, well, I've often stood in front of a class and say, has anybody ever been fired? And occasionally, somebody might put their hand up. I always put my hand up to encourage them. And then I said, how did you feel about it? And they said, well, I felt awful at the time, but on retrospect, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And you say, OK, why was it the best thing that happened to the best thing that happened to you because it forces you to recalibrate pretty well everything. The more major it is, the more you have to recalibrate. And the recalibrating of priorities, the recalibrating of goals sets you off on a new chapter. relationships are major punctuation events, if you like, within that. But there are lots of others as well. mean, and of course, I'm talking about the loss of relationships too. How's that impact? Hugh Massie: But I think I just wanted to bring out that relationships are major and that in shaping in your life and that you know there are good and bad relationships or there's you know, as you say, there could be good or bad events around a relationship and how you respond to them, but

they're all shaping, NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: even though you didn't love it at the time. NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: That person's taught you a lesson that if you've taken it on board and self reflect a little bit maybe the black cloud gets lifted and you flourish. And I think that's the you know, the important point out of that. But I also, you know, I think that brings me to to another thing that you talk about in the book is is comparing yeah. NIGEL: Can you just make a very quick point on the back of that, because you said it's very important. The other thing is, I think that it's very important is different people bring different things out in us. And I think somehow, you know, that's part of self development is to say, you know, relationships, you you with you go with certain people, and you have a different kind of experience with that person you would with anybody else. And it's like, It's the uniqueness squared is what makes relationships so interesting. It's UI squared. And each relationship has that capacity to do something really very surprising in you as well as in elsewhere. Sorry, injured it, but do continue. Hugh Massie: No, I think that yeah, that's that's good you said that. I like UI squared because I think it's multiplying and it could be infinite, the NIGEL: Yes. Hugh Massie: impact of it. That so one thing though I think that's sort of feeds on this a little bit, and you know, i i in terms of talking about individuality, relationships, your life journey, the seasons of life. I because I've always, you know, everyone says sort of by the age of forty you should be here. By 60, you should be there, you know, that everybody retires at 65. But no one's life journey is the same. I've seen some people, including my stepfather, become very successful at the age of 70. you know, NIGEL: Yep. Hugh Massie: plods along for a while, extremely competent, but suddenly the one thing that happens, it's a you know, that allows a quantum leap to be made. and I think that In today's age where mental health is such a big issue, comparing ourselves to others is somewhat of a crime. and it's natural that we all do it. Okay, that person over there's 40 and made a lot of money and driving these cars and wife looks great and they're going on first class holidays. And I want to be that too, and I want to go and live in that neighborhood and be like them. But you don't know what other NIGEL: No. Hugh Massie: turmoils that they might be having, other problems, the misery that they might have. They might have a health issue coming up somewhere with a family or in the family or a child. You don't know how they made their money. And so I think that NIGEL: But you do, yeah. I mean, even if they're happy, they're not you. And they're not having what you're having. you need to stop and smell the roses. I mean, like you said about like on relationships, people say, oh, why can't I have a relationship? Why can't we have a relationship? A couple of them say, why can't we have a relationship like those two do? Well, it's because you're not those people. And these compare, the thing is, of course, Evolution has designed us to make comparisons for very good reasons, partly for the law of comparative advantage, for the Ricardo principle of joining with people who are different for the benefits of synergies. Knowing what you've got is an essential precursor to bargaining or doing any kind of deal with anybody else in life. So we do need to make some comparisons in order to figure out what we've got. But to make a global comparison and say, want to be like somebody else, it's just complete nonsense. And moreover, other and social media making this, turning this into a real circus, I think, for young people there where they go online, they see somebody in who seems to have a exactly like you say, they're having a great life, but you don't really know what's going on and you're better off not knowing. And the other thing that is happening is people looking for social identities, looking for a group where they belong, the group that has got people in it just like me. And so you, and again, in the internet age, you can narrow the groups down and down and down to get some tiny, highly specified group of people who share all your tastes and interests. And as soon as you meet them, you realize you have nothing in common with them, you know, apart from those things you have in common. And those things are not turned up. and not the things that is important. You don't have resonance. You don't have that animal feeling of this is somebody who I want to be close to. So I I fear that we've been driven in completely the wrong direction by social media, completely the wrong direction. And my hope is that the UI concept can gain enough purchase. that we could see it as being a real counterbalance to the madness that's unfolded before our eyes. We seem to be at a kind of the worst place possible at the moment. I think it's got to get better. Thank you, I believe. I hope so. Hugh Massie: Yeah, I think that's what we would desire for humanity is that we can make it better and that for everybody's unique individuality to be recognized. But I think for it to be recognized, we all got to be prepared to embrace our own unique individuality, whatever that brings. You know, there's it brings with it a set of strengths, NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: struggles. probably a trauma NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: or two for all of us somewhere, but embracing it is then what allows each of us as humans to flourish NIGEL: Yeah. Hugh Massie: in the context of our own life. You know, you're you're a brilliant you know behavioral scientist, it's preeminent in the world. what you've done is just as important in my mind as what Steve Jobs did in in building Apple. your bank account may not be exactly the same as his, but does that matter? But but I think that's that's NIGEL: Well, thank you. Yeah, well, I wouldn't mind a share of that, but anyway. Yeah,

no, but I think. Hugh Massie: Well, but but but but generations to come are gonna benefit from what you've done, right? Yeah. NIGEL: Well, that's kind of you say so and I hope so. I mean, in the book, I talk about essential wants and existential wants. And a lot of the time we're driven by essential wants, which is that, you you want to acquire enough resources, you want to be satisfied with your satisfaction, want to, you need to have access to things when you want them and need them, you want to feel safe. you know, Maslow talked about these, these are the kind of security and safety and stuff. But Heidegger, the German philosopher said, we are the only creature for whom our Hugh Massie: So so as w yep. NIGEL: own existence is an issue. And he, from that I talk about three existential ones that we have, to savor, to signify, and to be seen. To savor meaning to enjoy being in the moment in this beautiful world. And I think that is something that seems to pass a lot of people by, that they don't experience their own experience in a way. And yet people that think increasingly recognize and want holidays and so on, they give them experiences. The second one is the one we were just talking about, is to signify. know, okay, I've written a book, we'll see if it signifies or not. I haven't built Apple, you know, that clearly signify. But, you as you say, you've made a difference already just by existing and having a family and having friends. You're already a force in the life of others. You already signify. I think understanding how you signify and valuing that, that signification is really important. And people who don't value what they signify, people are missing out. There's a wonderful movie on that topic called It's a Wonderful Life with a famous Frank Capra movie, but on that very theme where a man wants to commit suicide because he's failed all his community in his savings and loan company. And a little angel comes along, he's an old little old man who shows him what life would have been like without him. In other words, he shows the man how he's signified in ways that the man didn't understand. And the third one, possibly the most, perhaps the one that's in some ways most painful for other people is to be seen. you use this expression just now and you're completely right. know, people want to be seen and that uniqueness. And if we can, the biggest thing we can do is to see each other, is to really try to see each other as, and appreciate each other's uniqueness. And there's not nearly of that. enough of that goes on. In my book, I tell a story about a young man, a drug addict in prison, he had a terrible life. And his life turned around the first time somebody really said, I see you, I see who you are, and I see what's valuable in you. And it was transforming because through all those schools and all that prison and so on, endured, there was nobody who saw, everybody said, His life was, he was worthless and his life was worthless. So, so, yeah, so I think that's, that for me is, it's a humanistic message, I think you could say, and I hope it's one that resonates. Hugh Massie: Yeah yeah, I think we're you know wanting to bring to the world and you're bringing to the world through unique you, a humanistic message of understanding unique individuality, it is there. Every in my mind, every human needs to embrace their own and then they need to bring that forward. and that's where your individuality then can become your identity in a way. otherwise there's always a gap, you know. But if you're tr pretending be someone else or don't show show yourself up the right way others will see you the wrong way too and you know so this is I think this is very important work and you are you know I think done a great job at dispelling some of the myths about people's individuality and when it comes from. I think that's also very important in what you've done, Nigel. NIGEL: Thank you Hugh, thank you, well I really appreciate that. Hugh Massie: So so how do people just yeah, as we as we wrap up, because I've got to wrap up, how do we how do people go and find you? NIGEL: Okay, well, I think probably LinkedIn is the first place to stop. Look at my LinkedIn profile. I blog every week. I do a short weekly blog every week on LinkedIn. And you can please write to me and I will respond. And I'm always happy to answer questions and speak and to spread the word if I can. And you can, yeah. Hugh Massie: And also e everybody you can go and buy the book Unique U. it's there on Amazon. NIGEL: Yes, the book is on Amazon. I mean, I don't know what the discounting rate is where you are, but it may be cheaper than getting the discounted. You can get a discounted copy. think you have access for to get it direct from Ingram Spark, who giving a very nice, I think it's 25 % discount for readers. you have to add postage onto that. Either way, I hope you get the book. I hope you love the book. And I hope you do post a nice review on Amazon, which is really important to spread the word. It's probably my publishers now say this is the way to get the word out there. So if you do get the book and you do love the book, please tell the world because that would be super. Not for my sake, but for the book's sake. It has a life of its own. Hugh Massie: Absolutely. Well I I I'll be one of the first to do that myself and 'cause I love reading it. And for everybody unique you, go and find it on Amazon. You can get a twenty five percent discount. We'll put the links to that in this podcast and and go from there. So so thank you, Nigel. NIGEL: Super. Hugh Massie: It's great to spend time with you today and I look forward to more great conversations. NIGEL: Thank you, Hugh. And I really appreciate I really appreciate, you know, your level of interest and commitment and what you're doing in this podcast, I think is absolutely wonderful. anyway, I can support you in the future. I'd be very happy to do so. So thank you. Hugh Massie: Thank you.