Mini Episode: An Outdated Model of Leadership의 전체 녹취록

saying leader of, not only leader of your organization, but I mean the kind of leader in us. 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:47.040 The what is what is that that we're even referring to when we're talking about leader? 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:55.439 And I think we're referring to, I I heard this definition years ago, and I'm not gonna remember who said it, but it certainly wasn't me. 00:05:55.600 --> 00:06:02.800 Um, I think I was listening to one of those like self-help books on leadership, and the definition was a leader is somebody who goes first. 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.000 If anybody knows where I got that from, please feel free to let me know. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.639 But a leader goes first is what they said. 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:11.519 And I really liked that definition. 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.040 I don't think it's comprehensive. 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.079 I don't think that's maybe all that a leader does. 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:49.120 But I was taking that definition and saying, oh, partly what a leader does is that they're the one or they are one of the ones that face the unknown, face what hasn't happened yet or isn't known yet, and they're willing to engage with the unknown rather than um the places in our lives where we're sort of engaging with uh what we think is known or somewhat stable and making moves there or continuing to stabilize. 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:57.680 A leader might be someone that is moving into a new space or making new connections, seemingly new connections. 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:15.360 So if we work with that definition of um of what leadership is, is going first or going into the unknown, a stance towards the unknown, then I think we can all think of places in our lives where we are leaders and places in our lives where we are not leaders. 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:26.720 I can think of places in my life where I'm certainly not a leader where I do not know how to enter the unknown or um I look to other people uh that are maybe further along. 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.240 And I can be in my own leadership and also look to other people that are further on. 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:32.319 So I think it can be a kind of blended state. 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:33.600 It's not just one or the other. 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:42.240 And it's certainly not, I think I talk about this on the episode with Kazu, it's not an identity that carries throughout every aspect of our lives. 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.120 Um, though sometimes we pretend like it does. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:51.279 We think if I'm a leader here, then I must be a leader over here when there's actually no correlation to the skills that you need. 00:07:52.319 --> 00:08:04.079 Um so if if we kind of play with that, that that's what a leader is, I I've talked a lot about one orientation to the unknown being certainty. 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:06.399 We want certainty, we crave certainty. 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:10.319 That gives us certain certain, it gives us a

uh stability. 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:12.720 Like I have a sense of what comes next. 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.839 And um, I feel certain this will happen. 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:31.360 And I think given the fact that we are spinning uh on a rock inside of infinite space where the the whole everything that's going on is is incomprehensible to us. 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:47.440 The thing that we would crave in in that kind of circumstance where we are aware of our fragility, or we could become aware of the real fragility of our lives, the thing that we would crave is certainty. 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:51.360 The thing that we would seek out in other people is certainty. 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:59.519 And the thing about certainty, it's like, I know what will happen, I know what is needed, I know what is right, I know what is next. 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:14.480 That certainty allows us to for a moment let go of that existential weight that we have of like, what the hell is even going on? 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:25.600 And why am I not, why am I powerless or relatively powerless to control my circumstances? 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:43.600 And so when someone comes around and they're like, I know what this is and I know what to do, I know how change works here, I know what is next, it alleviates something, some kind of um rub or challenge that we feel internally. 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:47.919 It's it's we get to put that down for a minute if somebody else is certain. 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:50.720 And I think we have wanted that certainty for a long time. 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.320 And I think that certainty has lulled many of us to sleep. 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:08.159 Um, if someone else is certain, I can just kind of live and play inside of these walls and let those other things be determined by people who are seemingly more qualified. 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:12.159 So we let we let go when someone else is certain. 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:14.720 And I think that is a quality we've wanted from leaders. 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:19.840 We've said a leader projects certainty in the world. 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:22.639 And we can put our trust in that certainty. 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:38.480 Now, what they have to do in order to either ensure that certainty, ensure the things that happen that they predict, or to confuse us and turn us around when those things don't happen, that's a whole other realm of trickery and magic. 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.759 But what we're looking for out of someone is a sense of certainty, often. 00:10:44.639 --> 00:11:00.799 I think the other thing that we are um looking for, or and I'm speaking real broad strokes, but trained to look for is a sense of like dominance or power over is another way of saying that. 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:07.120 It's like whatever I face, I will address it and move forward on this agenda. 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:46.559 And I think we see this a lot in the current administration, the the kind of um re-establishing of this idea that might is right, that there's some kind of joining with the so-called natural logic of the world to say that those with more uh power, and in this sense, the the the ability to um uh just have you know really heavy, violent power that that means that that's who's in the right. 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:53.600 Um we see that trying to be re-established, that that's that's the logic we should live by. 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:54.879 Um, dominance. 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:00.159 And I think in many ways we have also in all kind of across the board. 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:06.879 And I don't, I don't just mean in kind of the the the legislative or government spaces. 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:16.480 I mean also in our organizations, sometimes in our communities, it's like those who are willing to um push through whatever it is that they feel. 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:29.039 Now, they may do it in manipulative ways, they may hide their hand as they do it, but those who must and do win are often uh seen as leaders. 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:35.200 And those are qualities we look for in leaders, especially if you're like, well, you're gonna do that on behalf of my community, that's appealing to me. 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:36.639 I want you to do that. 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:50.480 Um so yeah, that and I this other piece that is one that I have um, I don't know, kind of felt in my my own leadership in moments. 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:59.919 It's like what we've looked for in a leader is someone that is willing to do things that other people are not willing to do. 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:08.879 And I think this is just a true statement of anyone who matures is that sometimes you have to make hard decisions. 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:12.159 Sometimes you have to make a decision where none of the options are good. 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:16.080 None of the options leave you going, oh, that was right. 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:32.159 Our world is so complicated and things are so intertwined, and um there's no this is what I talk about when I'm talking about innocence on this um podcast and breaking up with this idea of innocence. 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:38.240 I think there are moments where you actually don't get to have clean hands. 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:53.759 And if you try to imagine that you have clean hands, either you're going to um put off the decision making to someone else, or you're gonna pretend that what you're doing doesn't have the ramifications that it does. 00:13:54.000 --> 00:14:01.600 But I think that we're all in many ways implicated in the way the world functions at different scales and to different degrees. 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:16.639 But sometimes there are decisions you make that do not result in you feeling good about who you are, but still they are decisions that seemingly must be made. 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:29.840 Um, so I think leaders have to make those kinds of decisions and be willing, I guess, to um not have to be

good or innocent all the time. 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:36.159 They don't have to be seen as good or innocent all the time in order to um act in the world. 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:44.799 And I think that's a that's a hard one for a lot of us, but I actually think it's a sign of maturation that we're not clinging to these ideas that we're good all the time. 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:56.480 And so we're we're gonna try to recruit people into that image of who we are, or we're gonna we're going to yeah, try to put things off that are ours to do. 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:30.799 Um but I think that the challenge of that is sometimes we we end up taking it to the nth degree, and that someone who's callous and doesn't care about other people, this whole conversation around empathy and whether or not it's valuable or not, um, is to me an attempt to go a leader, someone that doesn't care about other people and can make callous decisions, can make those kinds of decisions without getting mired down in feeling for others and the experience of others. 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:40.480 And it's it's this kind of portrait that's I think is deeply influenced by many things. 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:46.159 Colonization, I think it's influenced by patriarchy, um uh white supremacy, et cetera. 00:15:46.240 --> 00:16:01.200 This image that is cast of what a leader is is someone that knows or is willing to shape the condition so that they can appear certain, someone that's willing to dominate over others, and someone that can make decisions and not care. 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:15.200 And again, I think this is a leadership image that may change and shift depending on where you're positioned and what's acceptable in the world that you're in. 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:29.360 But I think persist those those kind of underneath those qualities kind of persist um across the board when I think about people that I've followed over the years, or I think about um people that I've witnessed over the years. 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:39.519 So one of the things I was thinking about in this episode was like, well, who are leaders that I have that are leading in a different way, that are doing this in a different way? 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:52.960 And I really struggled to produce an image that could sit alongside this other image that I have, of which I I have there's many in that number that I can think of on every scale. 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:55.519 So I was like, who are those folks? 00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:03.519 I can think of a few people here and there, but I think the fact that it's hard to think about a different way of leading is telling. 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.279 Is really it's really, really telling to me. 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:15.119 So I was like, what are the what are the what are the qualities of leadership? 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:21.039 Or um how might we step into the unknown? 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:22.960 What's another orientation to the unknown? 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:33.920 And one of the things that came up for me is like you're also you're still looking for an individual as a leader to measure against this other image that you have. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:18:03.519 And so it might be that leadership, so-called, isn't best looked at as an individual quality, but is maybe also perceived in a group or a body, like that's the function of a council or something, for example, where you can work with and play off each other's strengths, but it's not just on one individual to kind of maintain um one position or stance over time. 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:12.480 And the other thing I've been considering is this thing that I I teach a lot at the Embodiment Institute is almost this continuum. 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:18.160 And usually we talk about it as like, what does it take to be a transformational character? 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:26.240 And it's this continuum of states that we want to have access to, um, or really a couple states that we want to have access to. 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:33.200 And one of those states is will, and that's an orientation to the unknown. 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:44.480 So that means that I come to the unknown with a certain kind of generativity or creativity, that there's something here I can create or do or make. 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:45.920 Or maybe I have an idea. 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:55.279 Maybe I have listened to others, I've considered, and I do have an idea that I want to make happen in the world. 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:59.359 And so I organize myself in order to make that happen. 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:06.720 That will is not something that we want to let go of or disown, that will does things in the world. 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:17.599 When I will myself to uh work outside and plant my garden, that there's all this fruit that comes from that. 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:31.599 When I will myself, actually, for me, to expand my presence and ability to be here more often, it has all of these um ramifications for my relationships with the people I care about. 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:42.559 Um, when I will myself to write a book, which I had no idea how I would do that, but I created a way to do that, broke it into these chunks. 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:56.160 And every day I sat down and I wrote, and every day I sat down and I wrote, that took an in an organization of my power, of my resources in order to do that and to create that in the world. 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:58.319 So will is something. 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:06.400 You know, it's it doesn't mean that no matter what gets in my way, this thing will happen, but it means I have an idea. 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:08.079 There's something we have an idea. 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:12.640 We want to move into the world and we want to express our will towards it. 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:31.759 The other move that kind of complements will is surrender, having the move of surrender, which I don't think a lot of us even notice that surrender

is a thing or value surrender, but surrender to me is that um sense of letting something bigger than you take over. 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.839 And you can interpret it in a spiritual sense. 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:43.519 Um, you can think about it even just on the level of the body that sometimes you need a moment of integration. 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:52.880 Like if you've done a lot of studying or learning, you need to let the body rest, the integration happen, the unconscious to work things out. 00:20:53.039 --> 00:21:17.680 Um, you need to kind of surrender to that which isn't done through your thinking or or willing or doing that there are things that happen, whether it's processes in the body or spiritual processes, whatever it might be, that happen, not uh not on account of you making it happen. 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.279 There are things that are already logics that are already happening. 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.480 We live, we die, the sun rises and sets. 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.759 You your brain operates in a certain way. 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.920 Um, your heart beats in a certain way, you digest food in a certain way. 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.400 You didn't invent that, you didn't make that. 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:51.519 There are forces and logics that are happening through you and inside of your body, and sometimes it serves us to have the move of letting that which is trying to happen without us thinking happen. 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:54.640 And that's surrender. 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.559 And I always say that's the hardest thing to teach. 00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759 You can't teach it, you know. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.559 But it's really the foundation of body work. 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:20.720 It's a it's the foundation of all of the things that I think we do in embodiment of letting the body lead comes from the ability to do this move that only can be done inside of you, which is letting something else move. 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.960 I tell the story, see if I can do it quickly, of I was reaching. 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:26.400 That's a little example. 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:33.519 I was reaching under my bed and something was just out of my reach, and I kind of like stretched a little too hard to get it. 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:37.119 And I felt in my shoulder my muscles twist up. 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:38.480 And I stayed there. 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:46.880 And rather than tighten around it, oh, try to protect it, pull out my arm and massage it out. 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:51.680 I stayed there and I just felt the subtlety of the muscles twisting. 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.839 And I waited. 00:22:54.079 --> 00:23:09.519 I didn't know what I was waiting for, but I was like, let me just stay here, even though it hurts, and see if I can make room for what my body or those muscles might be trying to do. 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:25.279 And I waited and I got a little bit of um, it was probably um the muscle

moving, but it gave me an indication that I needed to just shift my shoulder a little bit and shift my neck a little bit. 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:32.640 And in that moment, I felt slowly and painfully the muscles just kind of unknown. 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:36.160 And I felt it happen. 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:37.359 I was like, oh my God. 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.519 And I pulled my arm slowly out. 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:57.759 And I had uh pain kind of at the side of where it had happened, but I knew that I would have had pain all along my neck, my neck probably would have been seized up all down my arm, back, um, if I had gone with the impulse to, ah, ouch. 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:00.799 I'm gonna seize up everything and and protect that. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.839 Rather than, that's what my mind would, oh, something bad has happened. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:13.359 Ah, rather than surrender to the body's impulses, which were clear in that moment. 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:29.119 And this obviously isn't true for every injury we have, but the muscles were trying to come back to their position, and what they required was relaxation on my part in order to do that. 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:35.599 So surrendering to these logics, so much can happen. 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:47.839 So will and surrender, I think of these as is as ways that we can face the unknown, and to me, are qualities of leadership that we might possess either on the individual or collective level right now. 00:24:48.240 --> 00:25:09.039 The challenge that we see, and where it produces, I think, these models of leadership that can be become so entrenched and not self-reflective and not changeable, where they lose their power is that will with the introduction of fear or just habit can contract into control. 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:17.119 And our our willing something in the world can become it must happen. 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:21.039 It must happen no matter what. 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:33.200 And then we face every obstacle, we face every relationship, we face every opportunity, whatever it is, with that energy of this is control. 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:55.359 And it might from the outside look like, oh, well, they have something that they're trying to create in the world, but we lose sight of what the cost is, and we're willing to do more and more in order to make that happen because we are um contracted into control, and that's where we can start to move away from living our values and start to contract into whatever it takes. 00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:58.480 The contraction of control. 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:02.640 And I think that's really the basis of our model of leadership right now. 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:17.839 If we swing the pendulum to the other side, the surrender move, that being able to let what is bigger come through, when that is contracted and maybe fear is introduced and we contract around it, that becomes a kind of resignation. 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.000 That becomes a giving up. 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:26.559 That can be really complementary to styles of leadership that are like whatever it takes. 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:30.400 But the contraction of surrender is to me resignation. 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:40.880 I think these are important distinctions because will without the capacity to surrender, surrender without the capacity to will. 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:50.720 There's probably a word of a state that blends these two, or there we might come up with a word, but that is the area of play, I think. 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.880 That's the area of exploration. 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:54.960 That's what we might embody. 00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.200 How do I will and move forward? 00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:58.640 How do I fall down? 00:26:58.880 --> 00:26:59.440 Let go. 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:00.640 How do I move forward? 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.079 How do I fall? 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:08.640 We practice these because these are the real capacity, these are these are wise skills. 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:16.079 Because sometimes you're faced with something that the cost is too high or will take you out of alignment. 00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:17.200 So you surrender. 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:24.160 Sometimes you meet an opening that will be served by you offering what it is that you have and you will. 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:33.119 And this fluidity and leadership, I think, is um it's hard to come by. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:44.880 It's maybe hard for me to even recognize, but it's what I want to kind of invite us towards, each of us and and wherever it is that we lead or work, how do we practice in that space of will and surrender? 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:47.359 How do we practice into that fluidity? 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:55.599 And how this is a challenge for me of being someone that like longs for this but has trouble recognizing it. 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:05.759 How do we look for leadership, if that's the word that we want to keep using, in in odd places where we don't expect it? 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.799 Maybe it's an unexpected configuration. 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:20.000 And how can we go, oh yeah, that, that, that's a way of approaching the unknown that I want to play with, that I want to follow, that I want to learn from, whatever it is. 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:34.160 Um, looking for it in an odd and unusual configurations and places and moments and identifying it so that we can create more models, collective models for how it could be. 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:37.279 Yeah. 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.480 That that's what I'm thinking about lately. 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.519 That's what I'm practicing in in my own life. 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.079 Um, trying to figure out how we do that. 00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:49.920 Would love to hear any of your thoughts and feedback today. 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:58.559 I'm gonna wrap it there, but grateful for you all um listening to this podcast, being in this conversation. 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:05.599 You can, as always, join us over on Patreon um where there's a lot of folks sharing their feedback on the episode. 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:11.119 Would would love to hear from you all on this particular uh episode, what's coming up for you. 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:20.559 And um we will be next back next week with a a really exciting um guest episode that I'm really excited for you all to hear. 00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.440 And um, yeah, thank you all for listening as usual. 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:24.960 Uh until soon. 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:30.960 Becoming the people is produced by Devin Delania, sound engineered and edited by Michael Main. 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.200 Our theme song was created by Miyata. 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:42.559 And if you're enjoying these conversations, please subscribe, rate, and especially, especially leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:47.440 And if you haven't already, please join us over at the Patreon Prentice Hempel. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.440 We are having a great time over there, building community, learning together. 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:52.400 Come join us. 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:56.079 And as always, thank you for listening to Becoming the People. 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:07.759 We're becoming the people, the people, the people, the people, the people and the people we're becoming the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, becoming the people.