Backrooms, Obsession & The Ring | Allegory Lounge의 전체 녹취록

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:27.360 Yeah, yeah. 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:29.040 You do surrender to it. 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:31.439 Definitely, definitely. 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.800 Bear is such a coward in obsession. 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:37.279 It was so hard for me to watch Bear. 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:43.839 At first, I could find it in myself to relate to his desperation. 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.800 You know, I kind of wanted to like him at first. 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:47.360 Right. 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:55.920 It seemed there was a certain eagerness that seemed sweet in a way for me. 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:58.240 I wonder, did it come across that way to you? 00:04:58.480 --> 00:04:59.920 Yeah, there was something. 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.879 Oh, he's the nice guy in the group, uh-huh. 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:03.279 Right? 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:03.920 Uh-huh. 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:05.920 He's the sensitive guy in the group. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.319 That's how he comes across at the start. 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.759 But then you see more and more he's actually very cowardly. 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:14.240 Right. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:19.199 And has no confidence, no, no healthy ego strength at all. 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:22.480 And therefore no respect for anyone else. 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:23.120 Really. 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:23.600 Really? 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.240 It's all about his own desire. 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:49.759 And his own like he's like, and then trying to be the good guy, and trying to be the good guy, and trying to be the good guy, and repressing what maybe we would want to call his shadow, or this part of him that is more selfish or more like self-absorbed, he then is like like eking out all of this kind of violent energy onto Nikki. 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:50.720 Yes. 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:52.879 Yeah, say more about that. 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:54.240 Which part? 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:59.360 Just like how he suppresses this thing and so how it manifests, how it comes out. 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:24.560 Yeah, I think when when I first watched him, I I felt like you could see his like lack of owning his own like kind of aggression, his own um sense of disappointment, his own sense of like even being able to bear some sort of reality. 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:48.480 And it does come across sweet, sensitive, kind, but in by betraying his own needs, I think he he then all of that stuff gets like pushed down and it and it comes out in this manipulative way, in this way where you actually find by his acting out that he doesn't truly care for Nikki, right? 00:06:48.639 --> 00:07:02.000 He can act like that, but we find out that he he really cares about himself only, even though he portrays or seems like such a generous person, I thought at the beginning. 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:02.959 Right. 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:03.759 Yeah. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:09.279 I just heard my neighbor wheel down his trash and I got distracted. 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:09.519 Yeah. 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:10.639 Hope it didn't catch it. 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.079 It's Thursday. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:21.600 Um yeah, he just he and I and I want to feel bad. 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:22.800 You want to feel bad for him. 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:23.680 Like you do. 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:30.240 You do want to feel bad for him, someone who doesn't have that it's like the lack of reciprocity in the world. 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:30.639 Sure. 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:34.079 Yes, but also the self-love part, right? 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:35.279 That he doesn't have any of that. 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:42.879 And so you want to kind of, you know, oh, I hope you find some confidence in yourself and love yourself. 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:46.079 You're kind of rooting for him a little bit at the very beginning. 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:46.879 At the very beginning. 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:47.120 Yeah. 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:55.600 You're like, that's the sweetest thing he says about the, you know, when they're at the cafe and he's practicing on the, you know, and he's practicing what he would say to her. 00:07:55.759 --> 00:08:16.560 Um, and yeah, it sounds like he's really in touch, but um but when he makes a wish to change her feelings towards him, realizes that it is not really who she is, and continues to use her, then we have the issue of consent, right? 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:18.720 And so we know that's a big theme in that one. 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:19.120 Yeah. 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:36.879 But what I find most striking about the movie is this like the idea of magical thinking, which um in anthropology and cultural anthropology, it is it is part of one, it's described as one of our cognitive capabilities. 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.480 So, like, in addition to so like another example is like irritative thinking. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:40.879 Yep. 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:47.039 This is unique to humans where I can think about what you're what you're thinking about, what I'm thinking. 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:48.480 Irrative, right? 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.120 Like it's just going back, back and forth, back and forth. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:51.679 Yeah. 00:08:52.000 --> 00:09:20.879 Magical thinking is another thing that's unique to us, which is when our current conditions don't meet our expectations and are not giving us what we want, and we feel a sense of like urgency and um and disappointment or frustration, um, then we will appeal to something or someone on the other side of the veil of the natural world to give us some knowledge of the future or to give us something. 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:21.759 Intervene, something. 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.720 To intervene in some way, give us give us a solution. 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:25.120 Yeah. 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:25.600 Yeah. 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:26.240 Back. 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.639 So that's something we uniquely

do. 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:31.279 And we have all these rituals to do that, right? 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:31.519 Yeah. 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:44.559 I mean, religion is based off of magical thinking, yes, you know, praying and seeking and and hoping for something to come in and control and change the situation to meet what what our expectations are and what we want or our desires are. 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:45.039 Right. 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:53.759 Um, and so he he and this is great too because it's it's the commoditization of magical stuff, right? 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.639 Of this thing that we do, which so ineffable. 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:00.320 Like yeah, that's so ineffable, so so unreachable, right? 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:02.799 But buy it for you know$3.99. 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:03.519 Right, yeah. 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:03.919 Right. 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:04.320 Yeah. 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:12.879 Um, one of the funniest things is when he calls the he calls the customer support and they're like completely unhelpful, you know, just like so like in the substance. 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:15.600 Oh, you want to put in a cancellation request. 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:17.120 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:18.240 Well, we don't do that. 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:19.600 We don't do it. 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:29.679 It mocks him, they just mock him, and it it it's like this yeah, like he he's trying. 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:34.240 It's this cheap thing that he buys that he makes the swish on a limb. 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:49.840 He's not thinking ahead, he's not really thinking anything of it, and now he's stuck and he's stuck in it, and there's this mocking of like you what you think you can just take back, you you cannot think about what you're gonna do. 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:51.840 Yeah, didn't you read the box? 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:53.440 It's on the box, yeah. 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:54.080 Mm-hmm. 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:54.960 Yeah. 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:05.919 But I also feel that that frustration as like a customer who's called, and I and I know that being on the other end of that is not easy. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:06.559 No. 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:29.360 Um, but you know, it is it it's so it's so frustrating in our culture, which is you know, run by capitalism and our our behaviors and everything is all tied and connected to that mentality of kind of, you know, you work, you purchase, that makes the economy grow and this, you know, and the world goes round. 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:29.840 Yeah. 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:44.240 And and this idea of like of the thing you signed up for not giving you what you expected, and then not being able to find any solution with the problem, any remedy for it. 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:45.279 That's the perfect word. 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:46.320 Yeah, right. 00:11:46.879 --> 00:12:14.480 And then I think, okay, if we're thinking about power in capitalism, like if these corporations hold all of this power, is it unfair to expect a sort uh some sort what level of individual responsibility is even fair to expect on the consumer aka bear here of like really? 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:24.159 I mean it is he controlled by like is he just is he also the victim of this commoditization? 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:25.120 I think so. 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:25.519 Yeah. 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:27.840 I mean, that's the whole zombie trope. 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:28.240 Yeah. 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:41.919 Is this fear we have of like just being mindless consumerists in this uh culture and having no agency, feeling like we are we really making choices for ourselves? 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:46.639 Or is our culture conditioning us to make these choices? 00:12:47.360 --> 00:13:02.320 And there's a lot of argument that would show that um we're not making these choices for ours for ourselves, considering what is sold to us, the advertisements, the the algorithms that we are constantly being told what to think and what to want. 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:08.080 Um so I feel for him as a consumer. 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:11.840 I feel for him in that way, but but nothing else. 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:12.799 But nothing else. 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.240 And then he perpetuates this on onto Nikki. 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:27.679 Like we see him being trapped in and and in this role as a consumer of not having a certain amount of agency or power, and then he like really doubles down on how he inflicts that onto Nikki. 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:40.159 So just I find the it's happening to him, and now he's going to exert it on someone else, and then be blind, choose to be blind to it for some time is he does quite an interesting play. 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:45.840 Yeah, I mean it's serving him, it is, so he's fine with it, it's not serving Nikki. 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.159 No, oh my gosh, and as long as she doesn't misbehave, he's cool with it. 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:57.200 But he only seems to get worried or upset when she does something inconvenient, right? 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:04.000 Like makes the mess on the floor, like knead him, you know, like cook his cat. 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:08.480 But as long as she's pleasant, right? 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:10.240 He's cool with the arrangement. 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:11.360 Cool enough. 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:13.919 Forgiving her body, he's cool with it. 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:27.600 Um man, you just said something to uh oh, when in the customer support, the the the person says, uh it sounds like you have a moral obligation to take care of her now. 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:28.080 Yeah. 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:32.320 And um, and she, you know, he doesn't. 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:32.720 No. 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:38.080 And the whole time you're I'm just like waiting for him to like, okay, man, you signed up for this. 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:38.559 Yeah. 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:39.600 You made this wish. 00:14:39.679 -->

00:14:44.879 Yeah, of course, you didn't really think anything was gonna happen, but you were hoping something was gonna happen, and it did. 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:45.679 Yeah. 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:52.480 So you do have a moral obligation to now soothe her and take care of her. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.480 Like when she just all the wounds. 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:56.080 I'm like, take care of her wounds, man. 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.639 Like, just like it just lets her bleed. 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:00.559 Yeah, he doesn't even get up. 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:01.440 I'm sorry to get this. 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:02.240 No, no, no, no. 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:03.039 It's so frustrating. 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:03.759 Yeah. 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:05.279 At the party, right? 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.679 When she starts, yeah, he just kind of sits there and everyone's like, gosh, dude. 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:10.960 Yeah, what are you doing? 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:17.279 This is where his cowardice really begins to reveal itself, all the way through the end, where it's so funny. 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:19.840 So many times in this movie I've laughed out loud. 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:29.200 Um, and one of the times was when he's considering killing himself and he tries to, yeah, and he goes back on it twice. 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:30.399 Twice. 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:44.720 And I just I just laughed out loud because it was just so funny the way the music drops off um when he's like, you know, trying to throw up uh, you know, throw, you know, get rid of the medication he took or whatever to do what he was he was doing there. 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.440 And um I mean, so funny. 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.279 He's just a coward to the end. 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:56.879 And he's an anti-hero, he does not have a positive arc, he is not someone we look at at any point. 00:15:57.039 --> 00:15:59.039 Thank God he doesn't redeem himself. 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:00.320 He doesn't at all. 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:00.960 He doesn't. 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.279 In fact, he like he he's his demise comes out of his wish, right? 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.799 Not only the demise of his friends, yeah, but his own. 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:16.720 Because if he hadn't wished that on Nikki, she wouldn't have wished it back and led him not to be able to throw up those pills. 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:17.279 Right. 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:18.240 Right, right. 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.639 And at least at the very end, she wakes up in time. 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:30.879 Because then I I know this is like this would have been a Romeo and Juliet moment where the other wakes up and the other thinks the other's dead, and then they're like, Okay, I'm gonna take my life too. 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:41.919 And so we get some redemption of that ancient myth, you know, finally, like, oh thank God, Nikki awakes in time, but she's awaking to I mean, horror. 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:43.759 Three people dead in that apartment. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.559 Her whole world, really, her whole world. 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:52.559 Yeah, I'm laughing a lot because it's it's the funniest movie to me. 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.799 It's um, I think it's being categorized as a as a comedy. 00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:58.480 I hope so wild to me. 00:16:58.720 --> 00:16:59.360 I hope so. 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:00.320 We'll see what happens. 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:06.559 But anyway, I love when you talked about it being funny because I'll tell you when I watched it, no part of me admitted funny. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.440 I did not see that part at all. 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:10.559 At all, at all. 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:11.759 It really got me. 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:12.480 It got me. 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.160 Oh, we know we've talked about this too. 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:23.920 Um, when she's in the shower and he's like, honey, I'm gonna go hang out with the boys, and like you can hear the water faucet turning off really suddenly. 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:24.559 Okay. 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:31.279 I've said that before. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:33.599 I've been there, done that. 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:47.599 Um, yeah, and so there's that codependence humor, you know, just like how we all have been in the situation of like this unhealthy wanting and desire of the other person. 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.119 Um, so that was relatable, which is why it was so funny. 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:52.640 So, what do you think about? 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:57.440 I have like one outstanding question that I keep playing with. 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:02.480 He wishes for her to love him. 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:09.759 She doesn't end up loving him, she's uh ends up obsessed with him. 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.400 He we find does isn't loving towards her. 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:23.200 I guess the my question is like, is is this also a commentary on like what is love? 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:24.240 Oh gosh. 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:27.119 Because he asks her at one point, well, do you do you even like me? 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:28.480 Or do you like me? 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.000 And she's like, Well, I love you. 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.559 But um yeah, is it a separate thing than like? 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:36.960 Well, it is the ineffable, right? 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:47.759 It is it is it does happen in the part of the mind where words don't happen, so it's hard to describe how and why you love somebody. 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:48.319 Yeah. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.279 Um or language, excuse me, language. 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:57.920 So it's happening in a different part of the mind, unless research has changed and there's something new information about there. 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:03.920 Don't quote me on that, but last I checked, that's why it's hard to articulate why we love the people we do. 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:04.480 Right. 00:19:04.640 -->

00:19:08.160 Um, but yeah, is it is it a I think that's so great. 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.960 Like, what is what is yeah is it? 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:25.680 Like, I even just if I'm thinking about Nikki, Nikki's love towards Bear, not wanting him to go be with his friends, I wouldn't categorize as loving. 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:26.640 Right. 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:27.119 No. 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:30.400 I mean, we can go through all Bear's actions, like none of that feels loving either. 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.039 But it's it's I don't know, I play with it. 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:34.400 It's a hard thing to describe. 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:36.640 I don't really know where to go. 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:45.279 No, it's all very unhealthy, toxic, codependent stuff on her on her end, but she's not herself. 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:45.759 Yeah. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:50.720 But what she is displaying is that's not love. 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:53.279 I'm sure you've been, I'm we've been there, yes, right? 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.279 With that person where it's like you and it feels like love. 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:05.200 And then and then now we've had the oh my gosh, the luck, the incredible luck of finding love in our lives. 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:10.720 Yes, and knowing that that was that's not even close to what love is. 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.319 Love does not control. 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:14.079 Love does not control. 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.000 And that it's what's happening at both sides of the equation there. 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.319 Yeah, Nikki not within her control. 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:25.200 So glad you brought this up because we we all it's it's cliche, but love is a choice, right? 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:26.880 That's something we hear all the time. 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:35.119 She had no choice, and I think sometimes in those toxic relationships, it feels like it's not a choice. 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:49.599 It feels like something has like there's an overriding of the system somewhere, and it doesn't feel like I'm I like I consciously really like and want to make this person happy, like this person and want to make them happy. 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:54.480 And right, it's like something there's a bewitchment happening. 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:56.880 Um interesting. 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:58.400 I don't know what else to go on beyond. 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.759 Yeah, I don't know how else to uh to play there, but it's just it's been stewing. 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:03.759 Yeah, that's great. 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:17.680 Um there is we were talking about magic and in backrooms when Clark has made his descent, like he is hanging out there, he's made a life. 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:24.799 Yes, he's made a life, he's eating the still life, the other like projections of humans or whatever. 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:27.839 He's resigned to this world. 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:34.480 Well, there's a scene when Mary Mary finds

him, comes across him, but before she does, right, there's this mural, this like crazy. 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:35.200 Do you remember that? 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:43.759 Yes, with all this art and I and I paused on something and I saw that on the wall it said, um, Clark did all this. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:45.759 Why think in terms of magic? 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:47.359 Be realistic. 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:56.480 And so I was just thinking so much about how, like, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to um demonize for lack of better word. 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:58.880 Um, actually, that's perfect word for this. 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:01.200 Um The idea of magical thinking. 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:02.559 This is something we do. 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:03.680 We do this. 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.319 Um, and I feel like Clark needs a little bit of magic. 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:08.000 He needs a little bit of hope. 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:18.240 He needs to be able to see beyond his reality because he's so stuck in his loops and his neural pathways of least resistance, as Mary calls it. 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:18.880 Right? 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:35.279 Like he's so there all the time that and and and he's he's just trying to justify everything, rationalize everything, and this creates this victimization and this whining attitude that Mary calls him out at uh out on at the dining table. 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:38.880 Yeah, you know, and he needs some magic, he needs some hope. 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:45.359 And I think that's what magical thinking does for us is it gives us hope, or we can't see any at face value. 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:45.759 Yeah. 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:51.200 Hope inspiration, something that can help us transcend what we know. 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:52.160 Right. 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:56.480 And and to believe that there is something different or something better, right? 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:57.519 That makes a lot of sense. 00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.519 Yeah, you know, he needs some of it. 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.039 Yeah, Bear needs less of it. 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:09.839 Bear needs some agency and some trust in himself, and he needs to, you know, figure out to bear reality, yeah. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:11.519 Yeah, that's it. 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:26.240 And that's the kind of the theme is like this acceptance and this lack of it, this lack of like taking ownership, but that takes a lot of um love, self-love. 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:27.839 That takes that work. 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:40.000 And so when Mary's like, I don't know how to get you out of this, your brain is wired that wired that way, and he's like, Well, how do I, you know, help me get out, or what he asks something and she's like, I don't know how to help you with this, honestly. 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:42.559 She's going through her own thing, she is, right? 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:48.720 But in the work you do, it's about building that self-esteem, right? 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.359 I mean, as a psychotherapist, that's a huge part of it. 00:23:51.440 --> 00:24:06.640 That's a huge part of my journey and growth was like, until I could trust that my well and capacity for love, that I could fill it up, that I would be okay giving some of it away. 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:07.279 Yeah. 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:08.480 I would be safe. 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.039 Yeah. 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:20.079 And Bear and Clark just feel so, Clark's in this case, feels so depleted by his wife, by his circumstance, by the world. 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:22.880 His dreams have been put on the side. 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:43.039 And he doesn't know how to love himself enough to fill up his own well, right, so that he could be uh an agent in the world, you know, like a co-creator in his world alongside life. 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:44.720 He gives up his agency. 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:45.119 Yeah. 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:46.400 Both of them really do. 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.559 But yeah, Clark, he gives up his agency and he's and he's mad about it. 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:51.759 He's so mad about it. 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:53.359 He's so resentful. 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:55.039 So much rage in him. 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:59.279 And you just like watch it seethe. 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:02.559 And I think we know what that feels like. 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:15.119 The this I know what it feels like, this resistance to take responsibility for the ways in which we've contributed to the pain in our own lives. 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:31.039 There is some like you know, you talk about non-acceptance, and it feels like Clark he can't accept he can't accept his own choices. 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:31.359 Yeah. 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:35.200 And that they've led him to he can't accept responsibility, really. 00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:36.160 He can't. 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:37.359 He he can't. 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:37.759 Right. 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:46.079 And he resents those like his wife, who he talks about, who who dare to want more, or who dare to take that. 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:47.200 Yes, right. 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:51.759 Who dare to need anyone else or rely on anyone else. 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:53.440 And he hates it. 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.559 Yeah, because it's what he wants for himself. 00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:02.480 But he he would never feel comfortable enough saying it. 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:06.480 And what you said about like what the work that we do in psychotherapy is so right. 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:23.440 I think a lot of what we, you know, in session, there's a lot of focus, at least in how I practice psychotherapy, in gaining insight into why I am enacting the patterns that I'm enacting and what are they? 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:23.759 Yeah. 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:36.799 And that insight is important only as so far as I believe as it gives you enough courage to like make the leap into doing something

different, and then you can experience something different. 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:51.759 So we talk about these cognitive loops from and and different people have different theories about this, but from from where I practice, I believe that changing your thinking isn't what gets you out of the cognitive loop. 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:56.799 It's experience something in the world that changes, that really changes. 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:03.920 And so you need a certain amount of courage, a certain amount of hope or magical thinking to see a possibility. 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.839 To see a possibility and to trust it enough to give it a shot. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:08.319 Okay. 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:13.200 And is it because the new experience creates a new neural pathway, like another way out? 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:21.039 A new way of, oh, um, okay, agoraphor agoraphobia, which Mary's mom suffers from. 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:21.519 Yep. 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:22.000 Right? 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:27.839 So, like if she were to create new experiences where of herself where she's safe outside, perhaps, right? 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:33.359 She's creating, and then she has the experience that tells her, Oh, I did that, I was safe. 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:34.640 And we build on that. 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:35.680 And we build on that. 00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:38.559 And that's the whole like theory behind like exposure therapy. 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:39.839 I was thinking exposure therapy. 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:40.000 Yeah. 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:41.759 It's the whole theory behind exposure therapy. 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:42.960 I survived it, I did that. 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:43.440 Right. 00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:51.200 And in relationships, and reg in regards to trust, which is I think a lot of what's at play in these films, and a lot of what a lot of us struggle with. 00:27:51.279 --> 00:28:04.559 Like agoraphobia might be something that we know or we can understand in a certain sense, but I think it's so much more universal to have a lot of fear and worry about trusting in someone or even in ourselves. 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:13.839 And that feels like the leap that we really try to take in that thinking of like, could something be different? 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:22.319 Because you get it's hard to convince yourself of what you know when it doesn't line up to like what your bones know. 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:27.279 So that experience is like letting that settle down into your into your bones. 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:28.720 Yeah, that's convincing. 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:29.519 Right. 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:38.880 You know, if everyone I've ever known has betrayed me, sure, I can know that I guess there are people out there that wouldn't do that, but until I really experience it, right? 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:41.440 It's gonna be tough. 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.319 Yeah, that's that mind-body connection. 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:57.119 I I'm thinking

about the loop, the constant, and so in the ring, she is so trapped in this place. 00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:13.920 Um and she has this gift called like it's called I've I've heard it, I've read it called a few things, but like um photokinetic or like photo psychic projections, she is uh thermogenesis. 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.640 Like she's basically able to project images and create images just with her mind. 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:21.359 I didn't even consider how she was creating these images. 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:22.000 Yeah, okay. 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:22.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.839 I know techno kinetic is like another term I heard. 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.680 I've heard so many, I've read so many different terms. 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:28.400 Like, what is it? 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:37.119 But there is a Japanese actual word for this phenomenon, and there was some research done around a group of women who apparently were creating some things. 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:43.039 I I did not look into the to the study or anything like that, but that's what this is, that's what the Japanese version is based off. 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:52.319 So this is her gift, this is her thing, and um it's her gift, it's turned into a curse because she hasn't been loved, right? 00:29:52.559 --> 00:30:05.440 So speaking of a well, not not filled, you know, like she is she's such an interesting um character because I don't think she means to harm Samara. 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:06.480 Yeah Samara. 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:10.559 Um but well no, no, no, no, no. 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:15.359 When she's she says I do mean to, I do intend to. 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:15.759 Yeah. 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:16.240 Yeah. 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:19.359 She does intend to pass on the trauma and the pain. 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:20.720 She wants to be heard. 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:28.480 Um, but I think if she knew there was another way, she wouldn't want to, I guess is what I mean. 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:34.559 If she knew there was another possibility, that she wouldn't want that for herself. 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:35.759 She would want rest. 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.720 I think we have to believe that to like keep our own hope. 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:57.359 But I think that's part of even at the end, I think that's part of what makes the film so uncomfortable is you know, there's a moment where we believe that all she needed was to be heard, yeah, right. 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:09.599 To be set free, and then found and discovered, and found and discovered and understood, right, and and and you're so right that would set her free, but it didn't. 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:18.559 And that I think was the most terrifying piece because don't we want to believe that that's enough? 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:32.160 That that's enough, and that that that anyone can can really be like loved and understood out of their ability or propensity to inflict violence. 00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:34.400 Yeah, that's right. 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.400 And it's just you're so right. 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:38.880 What does that mean? 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:39.680 Scary. 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:40.799 Yeah, it is scary. 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:49.200 Is our I mean, is that just something innate in us to I mean, yeah, hurt people hurt, bullies are bullied, right? 00:31:49.359 --> 00:32:00.240 Like um it's just and when you don't know better, like Rachel, for example, Rachel thinks she figured it. 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:12.079 She we she we think she found the way, but then when she realizes she didn't, um then now she's like desperate to save her son. 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:12.880 Right. 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:27.920 And there is not time, and she doesn't know any other way, and so her only option is to help him like inflict more violence onto whoever the next person is. 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.960 I mean, he even asked, so what happens to the next person? 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:32.799 But it's like, I don't care. 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:46.480 Yeah, like at some point when we don't know and we don't have these answers, there is a certain necessity, and I think we all hold it in us to like when survival is on the line or the survival of the people that we love. 00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:52.400 I don't know if there's many limits to what we uh are willing to do. 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.200 Yeah, it reminds me of this ethical conundrum. 00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:03.680 There's like another, it's not it's a conundrum in that we there's there's care ethics, which is the idea of like, have you heard of care ethics? 00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:20.319 Like, this is how innately women make moral decisions, and we will prioritize the safety of our family unit over the greater good. 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:21.839 And that is okay. 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:26.079 That is part of according to this like branch of philosophy, yeah. 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.799 That's okay, that's part of why we've survived. 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:30.400 Yeah, that's part of the story. 00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:41.920 Yeah, um, whereas like the justice ethics, um, and I have not revisited these these terms in a long time, but this is more like it's it's the trolley problem in ethics. 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:53.119 Like you choose the the one that you know yeah, or you you will sacrifice one for the great for the good for many, and that's justifiable. 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:54.160 That's okay. 00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:04.240 Um, but again, the the woman will, you know, um, or the maternal figure in the in the in the place will protect the child the child first. 00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:06.079 Well sacrifice the many for the one. 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:06.640 Yes. 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:07.839 Yeah, exactly. 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:09.280 Yeah, exactly. 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:16.079 Um, so just a little ethical conundrum of like what to do, you know, and uh was that the right choice?

00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:19.840 Or do you make your own, do you are you the last one? 00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:25.119 Do you let yourself die um in order to protect the rest of the world, or do you continue it? 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.920 And I just I think she made the decision I would have made as a mom. 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:30.480 Yeah. 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:40.639 But um, and that's that's the beauty of like right, like both energies and why there's why it's so important to the bigger picture of in our survival. 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:40.960 Yeah. 00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:53.119 We need both both decisions, both options, and then we need to have the agency to to think uh specifically in a moment too, and make a third option, you know, um, and think creatively. 00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:04.960 But um I just think about like the generational curses, like the things we just pass on and pass on, and the cycles we try to break that we've inherited from our parents. 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:15.840 Um and uh and it's it's kind of just a never-ending thing to to the ring's point. 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:21.840 It's a never-ending thing, and it is just part of the collective. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:28.480 As Rachel does, and yet she still passes this on to her son. 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.400 And the whole she's aware, I think. 00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:31.519 Yeah, she's aware, yeah. 00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:55.440 And I hope, I I think the hope is that, or at least the hope that I ended up noticing in myself was that maybe he will have a certain commitment throughout his life to figure out how to actually resolve this rather than resigning to this perpetual passing down. 00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:56.320 Yeah. 00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:05.360 Um I had the idea, and I almost feel bad for this, was like showing it to someone who it just does not serve society. 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:05.920 Uh-huh. 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:06.400 You know? 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:06.800 Uh-huh. 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:07.679 Do you know what I mean? 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:07.920 Yeah. 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.599 And they're like, okay, that's where we're gonna end. 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:11.679 Yeah, and that's where it'll end, and then let them die, and then we're done. 00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:12.320 And then we're done. 00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:13.840 I got an answer. 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:14.880 Right, right. 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:18.639 Um or then I thought, okay, this is just an initiation. 00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:24.239 Everybody in the society watches it and then gives it to the next person, and then everybody has to watch it. 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:30.320 Oh, and then we all you all survive, but we all hold, yeah, we all hold the burden of it. 00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:32.000 Yeah, interesting. 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:37.039 Um, and it doesn't have to be scapegoated onto one person. 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:49.679 But I think it tells us also that like trauma, the desire to hurt um others, so it is a way to normalize our own trauma. 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:50.880 That's why we do it. 00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:55.199 And that is just part of us. 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:56.960 Yeah, it's just part of what we do. 00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.280 Just like magical thinking is just part of what we do. 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:06.239 Like, it's just in our nature, and that's why these movies are so great and they tell us so much about our nature. 00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:06.639 Yeah. 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:22.079 Um, there was a reference in um in Backrooms where the scientist's family, yeah, they're watching a movie, and then he sees a cart, and then he sees the commercial of Captain Clark, you know. 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.639 The movie they're watching is never ending story. 00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:26.159 Oh, is it? 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:28.719 I love that you notice these details. 00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:29.519 Yes, yes. 00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:31.360 I mean, it's never ending story. 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:33.280 It's just one of my favorite movies of all time. 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:51.440 And um it just thought it was just so and I'm I'm digging, I'm really reaching here, but I just I just thought it was so funny of like the the this is the never-ending story, the the shadows that we we hide, that we bury, um, like Clark does. 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:55.840 Um, the cautionary tale of the shadow winning, yeah, like Clark's situation. 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:57.920 Captain Captain Clark, Captain Clark winning. 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:07.119 Um the of course, um, in the ring as well, that just the perpetuating, like it just it never ends. 00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.480 It's just part of the way things are. 00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:14.159 And I think we we some lessons we learn and we move on. 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:20.320 We've talked about this before, but also um some of it we it's just a continual, you know, just continuous work. 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:21.599 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:24.639 And like for Mary, she's she's working on that. 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:36.239 She's a she's a therapist, yeah, and she's working on her childhood trauma the entire time and to the point where she's holding on to a relic of her past, literally, while she's in the back rooms. 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:49.519 Um, and she uses it, she weaponizes it to protect herself, which is that was a great allegory for um using our past experiences to help us survive in the present. 00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:54.639 Like we developed those strategies for a reason they're effective. 00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.079 They're effective. 00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:04.880 Um I've been noticing how sensitive I am lately to like to just some friendships. 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:22.559 Um, I was thinking about my younger sister and um just other just feeling like God, I'm just so so sensitive, and then I just feel like hurt, and then like I just have this wall just wants to come up so

quickly in those scenarios. 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:34.480 Um because my little brand of trauma from a kid was abandonment and neglect, and plus physical uh abuse, violence. 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.000 And so I'm just so quick to go go there. 00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:51.199 Like it's just it's it's one of those things where I was just journaling and writing about it, just like I'm noticing that interesting, like the walls are coming up quick still. 00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:51.760 Uh-huh. 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:55.360 Whoa, I thought we've worked on this, but it's a never-ending story. 00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:55.920 It is. 00:39:56.079 --> 00:40:02.960 It just new triggers happen that create old, you know, that cause old behaviors to come back up. 00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:23.679 And there's a certain amount of working through with each new relationship, and then even with the same person and each changing season, it is kind of a re like a revisiting often that that has to happen, I think, to to rebuild this sort of sense of of safety. 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:24.079 Yeah. 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.960 Like I matter enough to you. 00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:34.400 It's like Mary's copy at the end that's stuck and it's in this traumatic pose, and it's like that will always kind of be there. 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:35.519 That'll always be there. 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:36.079 Yeah. 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:36.719 You know? 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:37.840 And yeah. 00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:42.719 So I've got this like thing with backrooms, and I want to run it by you. 00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:52.000 I I like to think about each of the characters as part of Clark's own psyche. 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:52.639 Yes. 00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:56.400 And so play with me here. 00:40:57.280 --> 00:40:58.480 I think I know where you're going. 00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:05.039 I, you know, we have most clearly Captain Clark as Clark's shadow. 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:17.599 He's scary, he's wild, he's, you know, messy, and um he may not be all that bad, we find out. 00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.519 Um, but he's definitely been banished down there. 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:22.320 Yeah. 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:26.960 We also have Kat and Bobby. 00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:31.199 And when I think about Kat and Bobby as they exist in the back room. 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:32.400 This is the young couple. 00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:33.119 This is the younger. 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.159 This is the assistant manager and his and her girl boyfriend. 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:36.719 Yes. 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:37.519 Yeah. 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:44.159 And I and I can't help but feel that they represent parts of Clark as well. 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:48.320 I've heard you say this, and I love this idea so much. 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:48.800 Yeah. 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:49.679 I love it. 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:55.280 So I wish I knew more about this idea and this concept of the anima. 00:41:55.920 --> 00:42:09.840 Um,

but at face value, what I understand about it is that the anima is part of ourselves that inhabits kind of the opposite gender or sexual role that we kind of that our ego tends to inhabit. 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:16.079 So for Clark, I think Kat represents his anima or his inner feminine. 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:24.719 And what we notice, like the big contrast at first, is when Clark goes to the back rooms, he just walks on in there. 00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:29.599 There are some disturbing things that he like he's disconnected from his intuition. 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:33.920 Where I see Kat as being very connected to her intuition. 00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.119 She is weary about this adventure. 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:41.599 She is taking in some of these things that don't feel right. 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.599 And she's expressing those sentiments. 00:42:45.760 --> 00:43:01.760 And so I feel that part of Clark's descent into kind of being overwhelmed by his shadow is due to his, like, the distance that he has between him and his anima, his inner feminine. 00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:02.079 Yeah. 00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:22.880 I mean, the disdain that he has for his wife kind of shows you this disgust with feminine traits of dependence, of hope, even of maybe not realistic thinking, but a sort of magical um follow your dream sort of thing. 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:24.639 Follow your gut back to the intuition. 00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:25.920 Follow your gut. 00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:36.800 And and and he is so turned off by it that I think he just completely expels it, which leads him vulnerable to being captured and stuck there. 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:39.760 I mean, his own shadow just it kills him. 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:40.559 Right. 00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:42.960 Um, I struggle with Bobby. 00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.679 I want to know, like, I'm like, is Bobby part of him? 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:47.679 What do you think about Bobby? 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.039 If we're gonna take that lens. 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:54.719 Yeah, well, you've said too, where just the the youth, like the younger, right? 00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:59.039 Like the younger version of oneself back to like the the freedom. 00:43:59.280 --> 00:43:59.440 Yeah. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:00.559 Dreams. 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:02.000 He's in he's a film student. 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:07.840 He has to his he says at one point that the camera is kind of attached to him because it's attached to a student ID. 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:08.159 Yeah. 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:11.440 So we know he's in school for film, following his dreams. 00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:17.599 I mean, the most, oh my gosh, the most fantastical thing someone can do, and he's doing it. 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:19.039 So not practical. 00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:19.840 And he's doing it. 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:21.039 So not practical. 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:42.000 And he's living this very, they allude to this very like luscious sensual relationship with Kat, which is like Clark's life is barren from that aliveness, that um like eroticism that Bobby gets to experience because he's somewhat connected to this like life-giving energy. 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:42.639 Yeah. 00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:44.719 Um, and I think Clark's jealous. 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:46.159 I think Clark's jealous too. 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:46.880 So jealous. 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:49.199 And when we find so he's willing to sacrifice him. 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:49.760 Oh, definitely. 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:50.559 Go down there. 00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:50.960 Yeah. 00:44:51.280 --> 00:45:02.320 And when we find her head in the fridge, cat's head in the fridge, he's like, I try to help her, but yeah, she's, you know, he really thinks his way, it's a solution, though he knows it's not even working for himself. 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:14.159 And then he finds some relief in the idea of like, I don't need to change, I don't need to cultivate or integrate myself with the anima, with my uh with the inner child. 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:15.840 My inner child, thank you. 00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:17.599 Um, I don't need to do any of that. 00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:17.920 No. 00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:22.000 Um, and he tells the shadow that, and then you know, his shadow takes over. 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:22.960 Takes over. 00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:28.079 That's why I think, you know, we've talked before about why did Mary, Dr. 00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:30.239 Mary, why did she smile at the end? 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:33.440 At the end where she's like, Well, can I leave? 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.480 And they tell her, Well, it's not up to us. 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:37.519 Do you remember this part? 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:38.239 Yeah, oh yeah. 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:39.440 And she does have that smile. 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:40.960 And she kind of smirks. 00:45:41.119 --> 00:46:06.079 And and the way that I interpret it is that if we're going from this lens of they're all part of Clark's psyche, I think that that shows that if she gets to stay, maybe the smirk is maybe Clark is willing to keep a little part of what I've said, of what I've been able, some insight that I've been able to give to him. 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:10.000 And that I think the smile is maybe there's still hope left for Clark. 00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:10.719 For Clark. 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:10.960 Okay. 00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:11.679 For Clark. 00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:29.119 If he can integrate, or if he decides to retain some of Mary and his psyche and let it kind of ruminate there in the background, maybe there is still hope that he that he hasn't been banished down there forever. 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.480 Maybe there is some possibility he could be redeemed. 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:34.639 That's kind of how I would like to think about this. 00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:46.159 Um it's funny because the way you think about that, I'm I'm gonna do to you what you did to me

on the ring, where it's like, I don't think that is a possibility for Clark at all. 00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:56.000 Clark is gone, just like um, and then what's her name is uh Samara, where she really just wanted she wants to hurt. 00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:58.480 Yeah there is no redemption there. 00:46:58.639 --> 00:46:59.599 She's across that line. 00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:01.039 She's crossed that line. 00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:03.679 Clark has crossed that line. 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:20.079 He's the cautionary tale, and Mary is the hope for us that she could she can run through and not stay, not befriend the shadow, but fight it and leave it. 00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:20.639 Yeah. 00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:23.679 Um and uh find a way out. 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:25.119 Yes, yes. 00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:32.880 And leave leave the projection behind, acknowledging and knowing it's it's there, right? 00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:35.039 That's part of part of how it works. 00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:35.519 Yeah. 00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:39.199 But um, but I'll find the way out. 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:44.400 And I and she looks back and uh when she's in this room, she hears the seagulls. 00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:46.000 You can hear the seagulls coming through. 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:48.719 So I think that's an indication that she's back out. 00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:49.599 Actually out. 00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:50.800 Actually out. 00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:54.159 But she is confined with the scientist. 00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:57.440 It's not up to him if she's released or not. 00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:57.920 Yeah. 00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:04.400 I mean, this is has to be pretty traumatic given that she was trapped growing up in a home. 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:06.159 Maybe that's part of her smile. 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:06.639 Yeah. 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:11.920 Maybe that is there's a certain comfort into like, oh no, I'm trapped again. 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:12.559 Yeah. 00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:13.519 Could be that. 00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:14.079 I don't know. 00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:14.880 Exactly. 00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:15.360 Yeah. 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:20.320 Um, but I like to think that she's gonna get out. 00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:27.840 That she's gonna help them understand how as much as she understands about the psyche, give them the information they need. 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:34.000 Um, you know, bring bring the boon, the boon back to the community that she's been through this journey, this. 00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:39.599 And in an actual way, she's actually our protagonist because she's the one who's who's grown, who's changed. 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:43.039 Clark doesn't change, so he's not our our real hero there. 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:43.679 No. 00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:45.199 Um, she is. 00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:47.280 I love that. 00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:48.000 I'm with you. 00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:48.559 I agree. 00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:48.960 Yeah. 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:49.679

You know, yeah. 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:51.519 And what do we know about the hero's journey? 00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:56.800 At the end, you come back with some boon for your community, some some knowledge, some solution. 00:48:57.360 --> 00:48:58.960 So that's my hope for it. 00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:06.639 And I I mean, it's a horror, it's horror, it's thriller, so it could go all types of way, but it could. 00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:08.320 But um, I like to think of it that way. 00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:09.760 But I think we have to have that hope. 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:13.119 I think, I mean, in the in the work that I do, I feel like I have to have that hope. 00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:13.920 Yeah. 00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:30.960 Um a belief that that things can change and that people can heal and that something else can be created out of some a life that is like really um colored by hurt and pain and trauma. 00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:32.159 Of course. 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:41.519 And I yeah, I just I feel like I ha we have to believe that it's possible. 00:49:41.760 --> 00:50:00.320 And the horror that I think is being depicted across these films is that the reality is that many, many people don't get to make that full loop, do not end up accessing the ability to like integrate, to heal, to shift something meaningfully. 00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:06.800 Yeah, but instead they they get stuck in this perpetual loop of of human suffering. 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:15.280 And then I wonder, then is the choice to like find some sort of meaning or beauty in that? 00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:22.880 Yeah, which we did tackle in our episode about the about Groundhog Day. 00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:29.280 Yes, yes, he lives in a loop, he finds meaning and purpose within the loop, and then that's how he transcends. 00:50:29.440 --> 00:50:30.239 That's how he can get out. 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:32.639 That's how he gets out as he creates it. 00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:36.719 Um yeah, and that takes imagination. 00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:40.000 So is that if we're going back to the ring? 00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:40.400 Yeah. 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:42.159 What's the the son's name? 00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:42.880 David. 00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:44.480 David, I think, yeah. 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:56.400 Is that David's task then to make some meaning out of the loop that he has now been roped into and is also perpetuating. 00:50:56.719 --> 00:50:57.199 Yeah. 00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:06.159 I mean, it's different than the but I love that you're calling out David because it it falls on the next generation often, unfortunately. 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:06.800 Yeah. 00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.280 Um to take just one half step. 00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:09.920 I'm further. 00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:11.039 I'm doing that, right? 00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:16.719 Like I feel like I took my parents took a step, I'm taking a step, we're all just that's the that's the work. 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:24.400 It is on him, it is on

us and the next generation, and so on and so on. 00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:37.119 I mean, that's where change and growth happens on the whole uh that on that scale for humanity is like zooming out and seeing how far, how far we've come and how far we still need to go. 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:41.679 Poor David. 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:42.320 That's a lot. 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:44.480 I don't want to deal with that. 00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:47.440 And he knows he feels that weight. 00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:48.719 He feels that weight. 00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:50.000 Yeah, he does. 00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:50.719 He does. 00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:51.920 It's so much. 00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:53.199 I remember seeing that movie. 00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:54.880 I saw it in the theater when it came out. 00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:55.519 Did you really? 00:51:55.679 --> 00:52:01.280 And I did not watch any more, any more scary movies for like the next decade after that. 00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:03.360 I was ruined after the ring. 00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:07.360 I what that was one of the first scary movies I remember watching. 00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:08.239 Oh, really? 00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:10.880 And I remember being terrified. 00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:14.320 And I find it interesting watching it today. 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:16.719 I mean, I was probably a preteen when it came out. 00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:17.360 I don't remember. 00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:19.039 Do you remember do you know what year it came out? 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:20.480 Yeah, I was in high school, I think. 00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:20.880 Okay. 00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:22.239 I don't know what year. 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:23.519 Oh, it's 2002. 00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:24.239 2002. 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:25.199 Okay, so it was 12. 00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:25.519 Yeah. 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:26.000 12. 00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:26.880 You were 12? 00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:27.440 12. 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:29.599 I was a sophomore, so whatever that is. 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:30.719 Yeah, yeah. 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:32.800 Like 15, 16, 16. 00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:33.679 16. 00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:34.880 Um. 00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:45.440 And I don't think I could see any of what we're looking at today from that, from the lens of when I was 12. 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:46.639 I was just terrified. 00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:49.360 Oh my god, it must have been turning out of the face. 00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:50.000 Yeah. 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:50.960 Me too. 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:52.800 Of this girl who's gonna come out of the TV. 00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:56.800 Yeah, I was getting nothing but terror at 16 from this movie. 00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:58.800 But it is quite beautiful. 00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:18.800 One more thing to say about David, because it's just coming to me, is he when he is asked to perpetuate the violence of creating a copy, he is resigned to it, but his like loss of innocence happened far earlier. 00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:23.280 He was calling his mom Rachel from the beginning of the film. 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:26.159 Which is oh yeah, her by her name. 00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:26.960 By her name. 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:28.000 Yeah, you're right. 00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:30.800 He was last at school. 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:42.239 She you you see how Rachel reacts, and you can tell she's she's preoccupied because of her own trauma and her own stuff. 00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:46.400 I mean, she's she walks into the school to come pick him up late. 00:53:46.480 --> 00:54:00.000 Yeah, she's yelling on the phone, and she's perpetuating a certain kind of violence there, and then you come in and she kind of dismisses his drawing that the teacher is trying to get her to like, can you look? 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:00.639 Can you see him? 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:02.239 And she's like, he's fine. 00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:04.320 He's fine, he's fine, he's fine. 00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:12.960 And so even when she ultimately learns this lesson of like some children, they I think she says, like, children. 00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:16.960 Um sometimes children yell, cry, or draw pictures. 00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:17.440 Right. 00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.800 And she can finally see, she like gets that insight. 00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:23.840 Yeah, but the damage has already been done to David. 00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:36.000 Like there can be some healing, but he he's his innocence had been lost like far before he was recruited to perpetuate more harm. 00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:36.800 That's good. 00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:37.679 I didn't even go there. 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.800 Yeah, I didn't even I just thought it was strange he would call her Rachel. 00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:41.440 Yeah. 00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:42.639 But you're so right. 00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:44.480 Like she was a mother. 00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:46.000 No, not to him. 00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:47.679 A peer, maybe. 00:54:48.639 --> 00:54:48.880 Yeah. 00:54:49.119 --> 00:54:49.440 To him. 00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:56.079 He was grieving the loss of his cousin who dies at the beginning, um, who he adored. 00:54:57.039 --> 00:55:00.320 Um she seems un unaffected now. 00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:03.519 Yeah, unaffected and is not really helping him cook with grief. 00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:06.639 Yeah, it's inconvenient for her phone calls. 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:08.800 Yeah, yeah, that she has to take on this. 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:09.599 They're very important. 00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:11.599 You know, important journalism things. 00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:12.239 Right. 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:14.400 But at the end, she's willing to take the day off. 00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:15.519 Don't you have to go into work? 00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:16.079 Not today. 00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:16.960 Yeah, not today. 00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:17.360 You're right. 00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:19.119 So she she is our hero there. 00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:19.599 Yeah. 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:25.119 She does grow and change, um, where she does become a better mom out of it. 00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:27.360 She becomes beautiful. 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:28.320 It is beautiful. 00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:30.880 She learns how to attach and connect with him. 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:46.960 Which, like, I think maybe that is their there is there's some hope that she may have not solved all of the problems, but at least now David has an attuned present mother, and there could be some some improvement or reconciliation within the relationship. 00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:50.559 And maybe then David can take that next step. 00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:53.199 I will take hope wherever I can find it. 00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:56.880 That sounds like a good good ending. 00:55:57.840 --> 00:55:58.880 Yeah, I love. 00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:00.400 Well, this is fun. 00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:01.119 This was fun. 00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:02.320 Good place to end, yeah. 00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:03.519 Hope yeah. 00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:05.440 From horror to hope. 00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:06.719 From horror to hope. 00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:07.599 How good. 00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:09.440 Cool. 00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:10.639 Cheers.