WHY CAN’T WE JUST DO IT LIKE AMSTERDAM?의 전체 녹취록

seem to kind of be they went down well, I guess, in the cycling community and they went down really badly in the, in the hater community, which was. 00:02:55:10 - 00:02:56:03 John Simmerman Like a community. 00:02:56:04 - 00:02:59:01 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. 00:02:59:03 - 00:03:06:01 Daniel Abrahams Well, as we say, the United States. So that's what's happened. You know, that's what happens when you poke the bear, 00:03:06:03 - 00:03:20:27 John Simmerman When you are challenging the status quo of motor motor dumb and motor dominance and motor car dominance. If you poke that bear, then they get irritated. Yeah. How dare you? How dare you? 00:03:20:28 - 00:03:29:28 Daniel Abrahams But you know, at the same time, I guess I'm. I guess people listening to this podcast will be, you know, it's kind of preaching to the converted, I suppose, a bit of. 00:03:30:01 - 00:03:34:01 John Simmerman Well, hopefully we can break out of our echo chamber, you know what I mean? 00:03:34:02 - 00:04:01:05 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. And that's that was kind of part of the idea of the songs as well, is that if I make a really catchy pop song and that people might come across it and be like, that's a cool song, I'm singing the melody. And and then they kind of they get tricked into, you know, digging the lyrics and, and, you know, thinking and talking about the messages of the song and that it might be reaching people beyond the echo chamber. 00:04:01:05 - 00:04:01:17 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. 00:04:01:19 - 00:04:10:16 John Simmerman And so let's, let's rewind just a little bit. You and I got connected through Melissa Brentwood. Correct? 00:04:10:19 - 00:04:28:09 Daniel Abrahams Correct. Melissa was really lovely and and kind of shared my, my latest video. In fact, I think a couple of my videos with her, you know, that huge community of followers, which is obviously really helpful for me. And yeah, she put us in touch, which was really nice. 00:04:28:10 - 00:05:00:01 John Simmerman Yeah. No, I was delighted to to have that introduction. And Melissa and Chris have been on the the channel, the Active Towns channel many, many times. And my relationship and friendship with them goes back to when they still lived in Vancouver, Canada and before there was an Active Towns channel. So I've, I've kind of filmed with them and their children when they were walking to school one day way back in 2016 or something like that. 00:05:00:01 - 00:05:17:02 John Simmerman And so it's been a wonderful joy to to, you know, follow their career as they've just really hit the groove and hit the mark. They're in the Netherlands, they're in Delft. And yeah. So that was a fantastic introduction. 00:05:17:04 - 00:05:40:04 Daniel Abrahams Totally. And I think that's so inspirational because they they show people what is possible and not just in Holland, but in everywhere across the world. And they're kind of that's I contacted them about sharing my video because I saw the synergy there of like, it's it's what we often lack is not, you know, the know how or the solutions. 00:05:40:06 - 00:06:11:16 Daniel Abrahams And it's actually the stories and the kind of the imaginations and, and people kind of think, well, for example, Edinburgh, where I live, Edinburgh is so hilly and it's so car dominated in many parts and it would be so difficult to make it like Amsterdam. The weather's terrible, it's just not possible. Whereas actually it is maybe not exactly the same as the dam, but it could be a good version and it's really just lack of imagination, political willpower. 00:06:11:20 - 00:06:33:09 Daniel Abrahams And I think that was illuminating for me when I saw Melissa and Chris's posts about their visit to Edinburgh, because they showed kind of a rose tinted view of Edinburgh, they showed all the good bits, and I and I kind of come to the realization that that's what they do. They visit places and they show the really good bits. 00:06:33:09 - 00:06:55:03 Daniel Abrahams And I was kind of I was kind of annoyed for a second. I was like, but don't you know that like most of Edinburgh's terrible for bike lanes? But then I realized that this is what they're doing. They're showing. They're showing everyone else their story, everyone, all the good examples to to kind of just constantly push this message of it's possible. 00:06:55:04 - 00:06:56:14 Daniel Abrahams It's possible everywhere. 00:06:56:18 - 00:07:28:22 John Simmerman Yeah. And and I do the same thing. That's, that's the, the essence and the ultimate mission of the Active Towns channel is to try to project out the progress and the success stories that are happening around the globe. And so when I roll into a place like Edinburgh, all connect with a local and have them show me around, and ultimately we're able to, you know, highlight some of the projects and some of the things that are the success stories. 00:07:28:22 - 00:07:51:13 John Simmerman But, you know, depending on what they show me or depending on what I see by wandering around by myself and, and I'm constantly filming, I get a little bit of a mixture of everything. And sometimes I'll just be, you know, writing by myself and just doing a solo conversation with myself, critiquing what I'm seeing. The bonus, you know, the pluses and minuses. 00:07:51:14 - 00:08:14:02 John Simmerman And so sometimes people will say too, with as a criticism to my channel, it's like, yeah, you're just showing the good stuff. And it's like, well, I'm trying to show that even in a challenging situation, we can make progress. And that's one of the things that I love about your content and your music videos that you've put together is you humanize them. 00:08:14:02 - 00:08:40:17 John Simmerman And I'd love to play the first Our Streets video that opens with the young child getting ready to go out, and that'll give our our voices a little bit of a break and we can, you know, listen to some of your music and see some of the production that has that

you've put together. Now, this one was released some time ago, correct? 00:08:40:20 - 00:08:44:18 Daniel Abrahams Yeah, I think it was 2023. 00:08:44:21 - 00:08:45:10 John Simmerman Okay. 00:08:45:16 - 00:08:46:26 Daniel Abrahams I have to check that book. 00:08:46:28 - 00:08:50:23 John Simmerman Okay. Well let's let's press play and check it out. Sure. 00:08:50:26 - 00:09:23:21 Daniel Abrahams Cool. 00:09:23:23 - 00:09:38:04 Featured Video Audio The critical Mass Effect going to address the trouble on our streets, cause they're in a right mess. To make us no space for the rest. For the people on the planet. And the bicycle is better. 00:09:38:06 - 00:10:05:24 Featured Video Audio And the ice streets. When I see the streets. Little kids on the road. Go fight for their life. Cause the four by fours give them such a fright. They go into fast and away too big. But we're gonna fight back. Cause we go have the right now. Streets, the streets. 00:10:05:27 - 00:10:08:24 Featured Video Audio Streets. 00:10:08:27 - 00:10:11:24 Featured Video Audio Streets. 00:10:11:27 - 00:10:23:24 Featured Video Audio Will. 00:10:23:27 - 00:10:44:26 Featured Video Audio Look down like a mini Paradise. With the streets so quiet in the air. So nice I had to take to the streets with their bikes and their feet. Cause you can't change a thing. Sitting in your car. Seat two is good for wheels. But keeping up all this in the world on my. For the health of your body, in the health of the world. 00:10:44:27 - 00:11:01:06 Featured Video Audio Join us on your bike or tell them all the ice is the streets. Well I streets, but I streets. 00:11:01:09 - 00:11:55:03 Featured Video Audio Once again. Where once again some. What's on your side by side. The answer to crisis fight science and climate crisis and science and mind science. Since the streets fight science ever. So I decided to send them to the right side. The answer to my son. In some local economy. I signed up to press my science and climate crisis science, and I saw the answer shake the street, fight science under. 00:11:55:05 - 00:12:21:29 John Simmerman I love it, I love it, you know, it's so cool to. And of course critical mass which you very early in the video you'll you hear in the lyrics that you reference critical mass. And we see this concept of critical mass, which is a movement that was born in San Francisco of essentially just the people taking over the streets and saying, you know, we're not causing traffic, we are traffic. 00:12:21:29 - 00:12:57:12 John Simmerman We you know, we are our have every bit as much of a right to this streetscape as, as anybody else. And what I love about old historic cities, like a San Francisco, like an Edinburgh, especially Edinburgh, is, you see those old historic buildings. And it doesn't take much imagination to imagine a street where there were no private automobiles, there were no cars because these cities existed before cars, before cars took over. 00:12:57:12 - 00:13:21:09 John Simmerman And so, you know, my coffee mug says that, you know, streets are for people because streets really were for people. They were the platform for society, for building wealth, for prosperity, for human flourishing, as that's that's what took place on the streets. You know, you'd. Yeah. I mean, it's just there's so it's so rich. And I want to pull up the website here for, for critical Edinburgh critical Mass here. 00:13:21:10 - 00:13:37:28 Daniel Abrahams So I just want to say, you know, you go to this, you go to the Scottish Archives, you know, and look at old photos of the Princes Street, which is the main street in Edinburgh. And it's, it's full of people, but it's also full of horses, it's full of bikes. And of course, no one's suggesting that we go back to horse drawn carriages. 00:13:37:28 - 00:13:46:16 Daniel Abrahams But again, it's this lack of the imagination saying it's always been like this. And actually, no it's not. And look how nice it was before it was filled with cars. Look at look how nice of you. 00:13:46:17 - 00:14:12:12 John Simmerman I don't want to look at the past with rose colored glasses. There was all sorts of of challenges and issues there. But really the point is, is that to say that our public realm, our largest public realm, our streets are only for one mode of transport, the private automobile. That's ludicrous. That's just revisionist history. That's not the truth. 00:14:12:12 - 00:14:45:28 John Simmerman So yeah. Yeah. So this is the point, though. You got engaged with just saying, hey, why is it like this? So how what? Take us back. How did this story emerge from you? What is the origin story for? For you as a musician and composer who suddenly gets engaged in bicycle activism and advocacy for safer streets for all ages and abilities? 00:14:46:00 - 00:15:14:19 Daniel Abrahams Well, I've always been, you know, interested and worried and passionate about environmental issues. And in fact, I studied engineering with renewable energy and worked for many years as an engineer on wind turbines and different forms of sustainable transport, specifically through a kind of novel type of hydraulic pump motor. So it's like making these machines more efficient by using more efficient hydraulics. 00:15:14:19 - 00:15:40:09 Daniel Abrahams So I've always kind of had that interest and also in campaigning for our university. But it was during kind of Covid lockdown that, you know, we were all quite confined in the UK to being inside. And and so that kind of was people were not inclined to make protests either in the street because it was kind of, you know, to many people in the same place. 00:15:40:09 - 00:16:00:04 Daniel Abrahams But at some point a group decided to do a protest. I'm not I can't quite remember what it was about, but it was effectively a critical mass and everyone was cycling spaced out so they weren't close to each other, but they were in the street taking over the whole street,

cycling along together. And a few of us were like, wow, this was amazing. 00:16:00:06 - 00:16:24:00 Daniel Abrahams What did we just do? And we realized that was a critical mass. What we just did and Edinburgh used to have many years ago, I think maybe like 15 years ago, it had a critical mass. And like most critical masses, I think in Europe, maybe around the world. It was Friday around 5 p.m., the kind of time where you caused the most aggro pose for motorists who were trying to get home to enjoy their weekend. 00:16:24:01 - 00:16:55:18 Daniel Abrahams And for some reason, we decided a group of us decided to change the time to Saturday at 2 p.m. we kind of wanted to make a family accessible version, and also a slightly more, I want to say friendly, but like maybe. Yeah, it's an interesting thing because I think we shouldn't be afraid of confrontation, but I think maybe if perhaps because we're afraid of confrontation with drivers on a Friday night as it's getting dark, we wanted to make that a different kind of vibe and make it really kind of fun. 00:16:55:18 - 00:17:13:25 Daniel Abrahams So we have make a big point of having music on loudspeakers in the ride, getting everyone to ring their bells, and we make a big point of, you know, that we're not there to be aggressive to anyone. We're there to kind of demonstrate what's possible, what streets sound like, what they feel like when they're filled with bicycles instead of cars. 00:17:13:26 - 00:17:36:10 Daniel Abrahams And so it kind of grew from nothing, really. The first ride was about ten people, and it grew to kind of its peak, I think, you know, 200, 250 people. And now it's kind of plateaued to maybe about 100, 150 every, every month. But I think it's been a really good success because the response we get in the street is amazing. 00:17:36:11 - 00:17:56:12 Daniel Abrahams You know, car drivers mostly love it. You know, they kind of get a lot of thumbs up and honking of horns. And pedestrians love it. You know, they see us coming. They're like, wow, they hear us first. They're like, what's that? Silence. What's that? Lack of motorists? And then they hear ringing bells to hear music. And then by the time we're passing them, they're like, this is amazing. 00:17:56:12 - 00:18:26:00 Daniel Abrahams Great. And so I think it's been it's been really nice in terms of like maybe tending some attitudes in Edinburgh and also giving a different element to the campaigning in a city because there's so many great campaign groups. For example, there's one called spokes and there are every council meeting, they're keeping track of every update on the transport committee and the council. 00:18:26:02 - 00:18:46:08 Daniel Abrahams They're producing maps of all the infrastructure in the city. And I think all that stuff is amazing. But I think it's also really important to have a kind of on the street presence to the campaigning, a chance for people to literally meet up, you know, because people are kind

of fed up of being online. I am well, I mean, I'm very happy to be here on this podcast, you know. 00:18:46:10 - 00:18:48:23 Daniel Abrahams Yes. How else how else could we chat to get tweeted? 00:18:48:23 - 00:19:05:19 John Simmerman Yeah. This is like the benefit of the Covid era is we all got used to having these conversations in these meetings and these recordings. And that's the origins of the podcast. As I launch the podcast at about, you know, at about the time of the lockdown. Yeah, yeah. 00:19:05:20 - 00:19:34:04 Daniel Abrahams But you know, there's there's only, I think, so much natural conversation you can have online, you know, with people who maybe have different opinions with you because it quickly turns into kind of flash in the pan opinions and kind of binary discussions. Whereas when you're on the street, then you engage with people, you pass them a flier, they're in a good mood, and you meet like minded people, you know, and and you say, okay, let's do something. 00:19:34:04 - 00:19:47:14 Daniel Abrahams And, you know, we've done some really cool stuff. We cycled from Edinburgh, Glasgow, which is about 50 miles for Cop26, and which coppers it one of the cop meetings. 00:19:47:14 - 00:19:49:02 John Simmerman Yeah. Yeah. It was not too long ago. 00:19:49:04 - 00:19:56:12 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. Cop 20. Cop 20 I confused because the number doesn't mean the year, does it? I think it was Cop26. 00:19:56:13 - 00:20:01:26 John Simmerman I think is the number of, of of meetings they've had or something like that. Yeah. 00:20:01:28 - 00:20:33:02 Daniel Abrahams And it was you know, it was a horrible day. It was windy and rainy and it was really, really tough. But we made it. We did a critical mass, you know, 50 miles literally on the motorway sometimes. And, you know, we've got a lot of really great press I think. So anyway, that was a bit of background. So critical mass in Edinburgh and me as a musician, I suppose I'm always making songs and making silly songs about, you know, my friend's silly birthday songs. 00:20:33:02 - 00:20:53:13 Daniel Abrahams And so when I started making some cycling songs, I was like, you know what? I really, I really like this. I think this could have a good response. And, you know, you just have a gut feeling about what you want to do. And I decided for these, the first two cycling songs, Our Streets and Big Car, I decided I'm going to I'm going to make these, I'm going to produce them properly. 00:20:53:13 - 00:21:19:28 Daniel Abrahams And yeah, the first lyric is we need a critical mass. And that's meant in the sense of the people who know me. They know that it's meant in the sense of critical mass writing every month, taking over the streets. But of course, it's meant in the general sense of like, we need a critical mass of cyclists, we need a critical mass of campaigners to actually make the changes that we want to see and make, make the type of city where cycling is normal. 00:21:19:28 - 00:21:38:17 Daniel Abrahams And that should say that, like, I'm not I'm not into cycling in terms of a sport. I'm not into cycling as a hobby. Cycling is just how I get places, you know. And so that's the kind of focus of the song is, is like there's I think there's a lot of emphasis, at least in the UK, on cycling as a sport. 00:21:38:18 - 00:21:55:16 Daniel Abrahams People wearing Lycra and racing and, and that's awesome and I dig that. But what I want and what I think we need is this kind of normalization. Like we have a motor normalization at the moment but we need cycle normalization. Yeah. You know. 00:21:55:18 - 00:22:23:11 John Simmerman I love it I love it. And what I what I love about this, this mixture that you guys have have done is you've taken the concept of a critical mass ride and you've softened it around the edges, but you've also made it something that's that's appropriate for families, as you mentioned. And you know the words right at the top of the screen here, a big fun community ride for everyone. 00:22:23:18 - 00:23:03:12 John Simmerman That's huge. Because what we're talking about here is you're, you know, you're going you're rolling out on a, on a, on a Saturday, you know, every month except for December at 2 p.m.. And it is normalizing for the entire city, all the car drivers that are out there, that they can look out in the audience of the people and they can see friends, they can see people, they can relate to all ages, all abilities, which is very much different than the origins of who you saw out in the original critical masses, in the original critical masses. 00:23:03:12 - 00:23:29:21 John Simmerman It tend to be, you know, the freaks and the geeks, you know, of activism and cycle advocacy. And so there was an aggression to it. There was. Oh, it's those others. And so there was an othering type of situation. The, the the drivers. Yes. They were taking over the street. They were taking over the street at the very worst time that you could do so. 00:23:29:26 - 00:23:53:12 John Simmerman But because, you know, a lot of the the public couldn't relate to who they saw that was out there. It was like an othering type of thing. It's oh, it's those people, you know, just like we get with the, the sport, the, the lycra and the, you know, and the confidence writers. There's another ring. It's like, oh, I would never do that. 00:23:53:12 - 00:24:33:09 John Simmerman But then when you see a little girl heading out to on a bike to get to school, to get to a friend's house, to get to a park, to just go for an errand, it's like, oh, well, that's totally normal. And so I love this. I think it's fantastic. If I were to do one little like adjustment to like visuals in the communications that you have out there, it's I love the colorful graphic on here and the folks, but when I look at those images of those hunched over cyclists, the thing that comes to mind is bike racing. 00:24:33:12 - 00:25:00:11 John Simmerman You know,

they all look male. They all look like they're hunched over it. If I'm not sure who the artist is, but maybe if if we can give the artist a little direction and say, hey, let's, let's make this graphic look a little bit more like the beauty that is our actual ride, which is a community ride which is all ages, all abilities on upright bikes, nice and comfortable, you know, some with helmets, some not, you know, that kind of thing. 00:25:00:12 - 00:25:00:26 John Simmerman Yeah. 00:25:00:27 - 00:25:10:18 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. That's that's a that's a really good point. Actually, yes. It's our friend who does the graphics and they're kind of copying the Keith Haring you know, style. But that's. Yeah, it's a really good point. 00:25:10:19 - 00:25:39:21 John Simmerman And yeah I think that's important in the sense of the messages that we put out to communities is to say what this is all about. And really what this is all about is a community engaging the community. And I love the way that you phrase that of a critical mass, because when you think of politicians, what they think about is, do I have a critical mass of my electorate that would like to see safer streets for all ages and abilities? 00:25:39:21 - 00:25:42:01 John Simmerman So there's some parallels to that. 00:25:42:02 - 00:26:11:06 Daniel Abrahams Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, there is space for the more aggressive and the more conflict, I guess, driven, you know, campaigning because we're in dire straits, you know, like the climate crisis is accelerating. And I think it's right. I think it's right that people make protest which which causes conflict because, no, not not in a violent way, but in a, in a way of like disrupting normal activity. 00:26:11:06 - 00:26:19:00 Daniel Abrahams I think that's okay. But I think there's, there's space for lots, lots of different types of campaigning. And I think. 00:26:19:00 - 00:26:39:23 John Simmerman I would agree and, and I like to phrase it as this, is that if you look at the hierarchy of, of where we're at and or how we get things done within cities, you've got plenty of room for the activism, the activists that are literally laying down in the middle of the street and saying, we need to change. 00:26:39:23 - 00:27:13:21 John Simmerman And then you have your advocacy organizations, those that have, you know, official names and official designations, and they work collaboratively with the, the, the powers that be, whoever they might be to get things done. And then you have community groups, some organize, some unorganized, some that are loosely organized, like a community bike ride, critical mass like this. And folks, you can follow along with what they're doing out on blue Sky and Mastodon. 00:27:13:23 - 00:27:41:23 John Simmerman Those little all include those links in the show notes. And so I think that there's room for all of those levels of advocacy and activism, as well as just an individual agitator, an individual person

that starts working to talk with their neighbors and say, hey, we need to speak up if we want our leaders, the elected officials, to hear us, that we need to go a different direction. 00:27:41:23 - 00:28:18:27 John Simmerman And then the next layer up, obviously, is city staff, the municipality administrators, senior officials within, you know, the municipalities and the government and the national government, etc., all the way up to our elected officials who should be listening to what the community wants. And then that's where if we do our job well of educating and increasing awareness and coming together, then we can be that critical mass that the elected officials are going like, wow, this really is important to them. 00:28:18:27 - 00:28:31:01 John Simmerman And there's all these other benefits, including, as you mentioned, you know, climate change, public health, the air we breathe in, in our in our communities, etc.. Very important. 00:28:31:03 - 00:28:59:19 Daniel Abrahams Absolutely. And I think, you know, the the thing which critical mass is good at is showing what a silent majority wants because there's lots of research, like for example, Sustrans and organization in the UK showing that there's a majority of people who want to cycle, but they and the reason they don't is because they're afraid to. And so a critical mass is a way to show, for example, the council in Edinburgh, there is this demand. 00:28:59:20 - 00:29:22:21 Daniel Abrahams You just can't see it. But if we'll show it to you. Probably every Saturday. Exactly. And you know, people, people come on this ride because they feel safe to do so. And I know, you know, many people, some people have come on, some people have borrowed a bike to come on the ride because they didn't have one. And they finished the ride with like three offers of bikes and people who've got spares, you know. 00:29:22:22 - 00:29:49:18 Daniel Abrahams And there's one woman, for example, who she started coming on the rides feeling quite uncertain, feeling unsafe to be writing even at a critical mass. And now is one of the main organizers. And it's like you were saying, you know, it's a completely nonhierarchical organization. I'm actually not that involved anymore. And I think that's a really healthy thing that people, people come and go and it keeps their energy going. 00:29:49:24 - 00:30:15:06 Daniel Abrahams And and just to kind of come back to what you were saying about, like different roles, you know, sometimes we questioned ourselves. We think like, what are we actually achieving here? You know, we don't have specific demands. We're not we're not demanding a specific bike lane here. We're not specifically demanding certain reduction in car numbers. But I think it's that kind of demonstration of demand. 00:30:15:06 - 00:30:28:18 Daniel Abrahams And it works hand in hand with what other organizations are doing, like lobbying for specific changes and what people in the council are doing to implement those changes. And it's I read a lot of the author, Rebecca Solnit. I don't know if you know her. 00:30:28:19 - 00:30:30:02 John Simmerman I don't know. 00:30:30:04 - 00:31:00:26 Daniel Abrahams She's fantastic. And she writes a lot about environmentalism, feminism, other issues. She's American author, and it's writes a lot about like, hope and how people can feel despondent because they think, well, we did all those campaigns, for example, for occupy, Occupy Wall Street, and nothing came of it. But she kind of draws all these lines to all the changes which happened because of that, which weren't direct, but they were the way in which they change people's imaginations and they changed. 00:31:01:00 - 00:31:09:12 Daniel Abrahams You know, they kind of changed the the Overton window of what feels possible or what seems normal or and you know, and. 00:31:09:13 - 00:31:12:25 John Simmerman Do you know, if you have like, bike busses. 00:31:12:27 - 00:31:13:10 John Simmerman You know. 00:31:13:18 - 00:31:15:18 Daniel Abrahams Yeah, we have some bike busses in. 00:31:15:20 - 00:31:23:25 John Simmerman Writing to school and all that. Have you ever had a mass where it's critical just for the kids? 00:31:24:02 - 00:31:37:12 Daniel Abrahams We have. I've, I've been involved in a couple. I think people have been a bit nervous to do them because of this kind of worry about responsibility. And if something goes wrong, then it's kind of. 00:31:37:19 - 00:31:40:00 John Simmerman Not that you need it because I think yours. 00:31:40:01 - 00:31:47:09 John Simmerman Is that has evolved or is a family friendly event and you've got kids here anyways. 00:31:47:10 - 00:31:52:28 Daniel Abrahams Yeah, I think we've had like one month through old babies on the ride in cargo bikes and we, you know, we have. 00:31:53:00 - 00:32:24:04 John Simmerman Yeah, I certainly don't want to insinuate that you need to have something else but to to what you were talking about, of adjusting that Overton window, that shift that takes place. I talked about this all the time is that open streets, events, critical mass events, community bike rides, the bike busses, these are all opportunities for us to gently and nonthreatening, change people's perceptions as to, you know, what our streets are for. 00:32:24:08 - 00:32:59:28 John Simmerman It's a gentle little nudge that streets are for people, and I think that that's that's the real. Even if you don't have, like you said, a real action, you know, attached to it. Of, you know, this is what we're doing this for is to do this. I think the fact that it's just in the background, just a very, very approachable way to shift that Overton window, to be able to make it a little bit more acceptable that as people, we can occupy the space. 00:33:00:01 - 00:33:19:12 John Simmerman It's just brilliant, I think, and again, in a non-threatening way. Now, you slipped a couple things in there that I want to follow up with. One. You're an

engineer, okay. Are you familiar with the the professor of engineering, Wes Marshall, who wrote the book killed by a traffic Engineer? 00:33:19:14 - 00:33:20:08 Daniel Abrahams No. 00:33:20:10 - 00:33:49:23 John Simmerman Okay, you need to you need to watch that interview that I think, with Wes and maybe even pick up his book a lot. One of the things that people don't understand about traffic engineers is that they may have one, maybe two courses, actual, you know, formal courses in their basic civil engineering curriculum that is specific to traffic. That's it. 00:33:49:25 - 00:34:23:03 John Simmerman They don't have much. They are not experts. They are first and foremost civil engineers that, you know, have done, worked on, you know, turbines and pumps and flow and all these types of things. And if you think about that and you understand that that's only recently where some programs, some academic programs are leaning much more into what it means to be a traffic planner and a traffic engineer and a transportation and a mobility engineer and designer. 00:34:23:05 - 00:34:59:05 John Simmerman And we're starting to change the fact that a lot of what we end up with and have ended up with looks more like plumbing, looks more like traffic, sewers, they're trying to, you know, maintain and maximize and prioritize flow. So with that being said, you're you're, you know, you're a composer, you're a musician, you're a recovering engineer. But it wouldn't take much for you to become a traffic and transportation expert, because they literally do not have that much formal training. 00:34:59:05 - 00:35:29:07 John Simmerman They don't. What is important as as an engineer, you know this because you are one, is that it's a way of thinking, it's a way of problem solving. And so we need to give our transportation professionals and our transportation engineers better problems to solve. And rather than solving for traffic flow and speed and the throughput of motor vehicles, we need to say, hey, this is the problem we need you to solve. 00:35:29:08 - 00:35:50:02 John Simmerman We want to solve for more people oriented streets, more people oriented communities. And rather than level of service loss, which is the throughput of motor vehicles, we want you to go for a level of satisfaction. If you want to keep the Los acronym, let's listen to that. 00:35:50:02 - 00:35:54:22 Daniel Abrahams Up and maybe give them all a free trip to Holland as part of that. Yeah, yeah. 00:35:54:22 - 00:36:14:19 John Simmerman Which we're going to get to which we're going to get to oh, the other loss maybe level of safety instead of satisfaction. Maybe it's loss, maybe safety and satisfaction. The other thing that you mentioned, which is going to prompt the next video that we're going to play, is and we saw a little bit of a hint of it in the first video is the big cars. 00:36:14:19 - 00:36:20:27 John Simmerman You mentioned big cars. So let's play the big cars video. And how would

you like to set this up before we press play? 00:36:20:27 - 00:36:46:07 Daniel Abrahams I know that cause a bigger in the US, but in the, in the in Europe over the past 10 to 15 years, cars have been getting bigger and bigger. And year on year they get wider, they get longer, they're heavier. And the impact for safety, the impact for air quality and perception of the street, everything is terrible, is terrible. 00:36:46:08 - 00:37:17:19 John Simmerman On behalf of all of Americans, I apologize. We we also shipped we also kind of exported the car domination and the transportation engineers and even even in Amsterdam, which we're going to be visiting Amsterdam soon. Even in Amsterdam around the 1950s, they were taking guidance from American transportation engineers. Again, these are not experts. These are people who are focused on traffic, sewers, making people, you know, getting as many cars through as possible. 00:37:17:19 - 00:37:47:13 John Simmerman They were taking guidance for them. So fortunately, and we saw a little bit of this in your first video, fortunately, the Dutch fought back. There was the stop to Kinder Morte movement and other types of things that took place. Okay, let's play some. Let's play big car. 00:37:47:15 - 00:37:56:22 Featured Video Audio I was cycling home with my pal Deborah. We were taking a time of poaching ever. 00:37:56:25 - 00:38:08:16 Featured Video Audio When a big old rushing came racing towards us. It was cold and we were leather seats. So plush. Come on, what's the rush? And I say. 00:38:08:16 - 00:38:09:26 Featured Video Audio Hey, man. 00:38:09:28 - 00:38:13:21 Featured Video Audio In your big car. Money's. 00:38:13:21 - 00:38:46:03 Featured Video Audio Only getting so far. Cool. Jaguar, you're a big star. You could have told me right over my handlebars. Tell me what you ever discovered. And it's not so wild Rover that you drive. It's just about big enough to be a small school bus. Have you ever been on one of those? Like all the rest of us. And we don't make a fuss. 00:38:46:05 - 00:39:21:10 Featured Video Audio And I said, hey, man, in your big car, money's only getting so far. Oh, Chrysler, you're a big star. You could have left me with a face full of muddy scars. Why are you driving a truck? The the. When your hands have never even touched the bare soil? It just snarled at me with a venomous laughter as his tailpipe spat and dribbled dirty oil. 00:39:21:16 - 00:39:43:15 Featured Video Audio I could see his blood begin to boil. 00:39:43:17 - 00:40:14:18 Featured Video Audio Maybe. I think this song is like something. You'll say that you're not the one to blame. Yes, trying to save the game, but to finish the job is gonna cause us to pay. Well, he's doing the way in his oversize man cage with me and Deborah there in his cloud of dusty rage, shouting, what's out, mama? Gonna take your fat Jaguar? 00:40:14:21 - 00:40:47:20 Featured Video Audio And with the money we'll give all the kids a new guitar. You won't get far, you won't get far. And I said, hey man, in a big car. My money's only getting so far. Oh, Jack. You up. You're a big star. You could have fooled me right over the handles. I know you in your bingo. You'll be my knees. 00:40:47:20 - 00:41:36:03 Featured Video Audio Only getting so far from the prize. Let your mates on. You could let me in the best for the bloody scars. Hey now. Your money selling it to you so. 00:41:36:05 - 00:41:40:24 John Simmerman So let me guess that that got you some. Some hate. 00:41:40:27 - 00:41:56:18 Daniel Abrahams Me, some hate. I also slightly cringe listening to that because I haven't listened to it for a while. It's, you know, there are streets in Amsterdam. The one, the one that maybe you're going to play later. It's really about kind of telling a story and getting people on board, whereas this song is really just like me getting my rage off my chest. 00:41:56:18 - 00:42:13:05 Daniel Abrahams And anyone who's cycled, you know, through commuter traffic in a city and has had people from Big Shout at them, knows that there's you need it gets pretty frustrating and you need to you need to vent. 00:42:13:06 - 00:42:19:12 John Simmerman And again these were a couple years ago. These were these were a few years ago that you did these first two correct. 00:42:19:14 - 00:42:39:20 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And I should mention I don't know if people kind of also it was my chance to rhyme Deborah which is which was definitely one of my best lines. But people maybe don't realize that Jaguar is the very kind of posh car brand in the UK, and also the kind of reference to discovery is like one of the big. 00:42:39:22 - 00:42:57:16 Daniel Abrahams One of the main big cars in the UK is Land Rover Discovery, and they always have. They always have these names like Discovery Warrior, as if you're going to use your car to kind of like discover the North Pole or like fight off Russia, I don't know. So it's kind of taking the piss of that, I suppose. 00:42:57:18 - 00:43:05:12 John Simmerman Yeah. Tom flood and I have had this discussion. You know, he was a recovering. 00:43:05:15 - 00:43:35:08 John Simmerman AD man who worked in the automobile industry in the early parts of his career. He became a father, and then he became a Safe streets activist. And we talked a little bit about how the automobile industry motored him, sells, you know, these different images, everything from freedom and exploration and discovery to to images of aggressiveness and like the demon cars. 00:43:35:08 - 00:44:04:18 John Simmerman And so, yeah, sometimes it hurts, you know, when you look at yourself in the mirror and say, am I part of some silly arms race where we're buying bigger and bigger and bigger motor vehicles, you know, and I had to chuckle with your one line in there about the tractor. And, you know, I grew up on a ranch, I grew up on a farm. 00:44:04:18 - 00:44:20:28 John Simmerman And so we had

several big pickup trucks and tractors and things of that nature. So I know what it means to have a truck because you need a truck. But I also know what it means to have a truck just because you want to send out a message that I have a big truck. 00:44:21:00 - 00:44:25:24 Daniel Abrahams Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of I'm protecting my family by having a really big. 00:44:25:26 - 00:44:28:14 John Simmerman That's what I'm just like that. Well, that aren't protect. 00:44:28:16 - 00:44:32:23 Daniel Abrahams Yeah, you're protecting your family. But basically we're all going to. Yeah. 00:44:32:28 - 00:44:56:22 John Simmerman But we know that that's not true too, because we still see I mean, you know, the United States is better at this than most because we have traffic engineers that, you know, design streets for speed. And so, you know, we're incredibly efficient at killing people in large numbers, you know, nearly 40,000 a year. And so the vast majority of those are people in cars. 00:44:56:22 - 00:45:20:22 John Simmerman So you think that you're getting safer, but it's a false sense of security when you combine that amount of speed, that amount of physical mass. I mean, it's it's physics. So I think we teased this enough. I think we need to to to, you know, do a little taste of the Amsterdam. I do want you to introduce this formally, though, before we play this. 00:45:20:22 - 00:45:28:16 John Simmerman What was the inspiration for this? Because you take this film to a whole nother level. 00:45:28:18 - 00:45:52:04 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. So, so I guess this is a bit of a development on one of the verses in our street which is talking about, you know, why couldn't we do it like Amsterdam? And it's one of the reposts that you often hear from people when you start talking about, like making your city a bit more like a Dutch city, which is that we don't we're not flat, we don't have the weather like they do. 00:45:52:05 - 00:46:14:04 Daniel Abrahams We don't have the history of it do. And so it's a kind of chance to remind people that actually it rains a lot in Holland. And it's true that it's flat. You can't deny that one. But it hasn't always been like that. They actually protested, like we talked about in the 60s to make that happen. And so like most of these songs, you know, they just it just kind of comes to me in a kind of flash. 00:46:14:05 - 00:46:41:06 Daniel Abrahams And it's not like a kind of there's a big analysis and research period. It's just it comes to me and the kind of there's this sort of like lightning bolt of like, I need to make this and it kind of quickly gets written. And then after the fact, I'd be kind of thinking about it refining and, you know, finally kind of had the idea for the video, which was inspired by the Dutch, sorry, German graphic animator Jan Kaminsky. 00:46:41:06 - 00:47:10:01 Daniel Abrahams And I've loved his stuff for a long time, and I actually asked him if he would be interesting, interested in

working on our streets, and he said he would love to be was too busy. And so I got in touch for this new song and video called Amsterdam. And he was super keen to be involved. And he he basically makes these animations where he'll take a streetscape and he'll use his graphic design wizardry to transform it. 00:47:10:03 - 00:47:34:28 Daniel Abrahams What it could be. He removes the cars, he adds trees, he adds benches, he adds people walking and wheeling and and so I asked him basically to do that for some streets in Edinburgh as part of my video. And so the concept of the video is that there's this kind of golden frame which is on the back of my bike, and this frame is like a vision of into utopia or a division into what's possible. 00:47:35:00 - 00:47:57:28 Daniel Abrahams And so you look inside the frame and you see the cityscape be transformed by Yan's animations. But the other part of the video is basically me dancing around on a bridge, and that that bridge is kind of anyone who knows the ban. Wolfpack will know that it's kind of inspired by one of their videos, but that's the other side of it. 00:47:57:28 - 00:48:24:08 Daniel Abrahams Is that as well as critiquing what hasn't happened. It's also celebrating what has happened, because that bridge is the kind of key piece of infrastructure which links to import and cycle lanes in the city. And it's actually it's great. It's really, really good. And so I guess the good thing about including it is like saying there's a lot of work to do, but we have also made some good steps and let's celebrate that. 00:48:24:09 - 00:48:48:05 Daniel Abrahams And so you see that. You see that in the video too. And it's and it's also it's just kind of yeah, a really kind of fun because I think a lot of campaigning can feel a bit dry, can feel a bit like and you know, that's all I saw was actually went where I did engineering and energy before music because I was like, I need to do something important, I need, I need to contribute to making the world a better place. 00:48:48:05 - 00:49:15:19 Daniel Abrahams And music, music can't do that. And then it kind of after years of doing engineering, I kind of had the revelation that actually you need to do what what you're passionate about and you need to kind of like find the way to make your passion meaningful. And so I hope that the music videos are playing a part in the kind of joyous, joyous part of celebrating cycling and and campaigning. 00:49:15:22 - 00:49:25:27 Daniel Abrahams And they're not more important than people who actually designing the bike lanes. But I'm kind of leaning it. I'm leaning into what I'm good at and leaning into what I love. 00:49:25:29 - 00:49:49:22 John Simmerman Yeah, well, and what's cool too, is we're you establish the type of quote unquote cyclist that you are. You're not the typical cyclist. You're not the image that people think of when they think of the word cyclist. You know, you're you're not a recreational or a sport cyclist. You just are a person who rides a bike to get to meaningful destinations. 00:49:49:22 - 00:50:22:13 John Simmerman And as part of that, it's actually a joyous way of getting around, you know, when it's safe and inviting, it's there's so much joy that that can be had from that. The other thing I want to mention, since we brought up the barriers that bring people bring up, is Chris Brundtland is famous for saying that, you know, all of those excuses that you hear when people say, oh, it's too hot here, it's too hilly here, it's too wet here, it's too cold here. 00:50:22:16 - 00:50:52:01 John Simmerman Those are just excuses to keep the status quo of drive everywhere for everything. And yes, you have to take into consideration your topography, the fact that you have lots of steep hills there, and that's fine. I mean, you take that into consideration and that's one of the brilliance of what the the bicycle is, and especially with the electric assist, you know, bikes. 00:50:52:01 - 00:51:20:10 John Simmerman Now the technology has gotten that all ages and all abilities can get around, even in the steepest of hill conditions. And so I think that we have to understand what those typical responses are of, oh, we can't do that because dot dot dot or this or that, etc. A lot of it is just, you know, wanting to to hold on to what we have, which is drive everywhere for everything. 00:51:20:11 - 00:51:36:23 John Simmerman It's not really in good faith. And I think that's the term that Chris uses is those are excuses that are not really given in good faith. But yes, you're right. You have to take into consideration the fact that, you know, you're a hilly environment. I got around just fine on my Brompton, you know. 00:51:36:26 - 00:51:57:14 Daniel Abrahams Yeah, cool. But we have a bike hire scheme which has came in last year and it's it's been expanding rapidly and it's actually there's been quite an uptake in cycling since it came in. And the bikes are electric assist. And you just see people of all ages whizzing around on them and they're amazing. You know, you just had the app and you find one. 00:51:57:14 - 00:52:04:17 Daniel Abrahams And I think it's been a really good success. And I think that is changing people's notions of what's possible in Edinburgh. Yeah. 00:52:04:18 - 00:52:20:04 John Simmerman All right. Well let's through the magic of technology. Let's go to Amsterdam. 00:52:20:06 - 00:52:52:17 Featured Video Audio Work up. We just do it like I'm still down. I want to ride my bike just like they do. Why can't we just be like, I'm still down when I write, I'm free. There would be bicycles everywhere. Sailing back and forth without a care on every street and even motorways with sweet breezes blowing through the hair. We wouldn't be afraid to ride. 00:52:52:18 - 00:53:30:14 Featured Video Audio Wrapped head to toe and flashing lights. But my love, accosted by my side, were be holding hands and feeling high. So why can't we just do

it like I'm just a down? I want to ride my bike just like they do. Why can't we just be like Amsterdam? Where? And I'm free. 00:53:30:17 - 00:53:52:18 Featured Video Audio You say we've got the wrong terrain. Are you? Cried it. There's just too much rain. But they wanted it and built the lanes. And I know that we could be the same. So tell me, why can't we just do it like I'm standing? I want to ride my bike just like they do. 00:53:52:20 - 00:54:22:18 Featured Video Audio Why can't we just be like Amsterdam? When I write, I'm free. This world could be so good. Happy. We just need to see. When you write, you're free. 00:54:22:20 - 00:55:47:25 Featured Video Audio Like the creatures do. If I can't stand up. So I want to grab my bikes like they do. Because why can't we just feel I can't stand up? When you write, you're free. This work, we just do it. I can't stand up. So I want to grab my bunches like they do me. Why can't we just feel I can't stand up when you ride your free? 00:55:47:27 - 00:55:55:15 John Simmerman Let's make it happen I love it. Congratulations, man, that is such a beautiful music video. 00:55:55:21 - 00:56:12:27 Daniel Abrahams Thank you John. Well, I should you know, I can't really take much credit for it. You know, credit to to the director. Marie and Caspar filmed it and both of them who edited it and Jan who did the animations, you know, so I really just made the music and and just kind of let them, let them at it with the video. 00:56:12:27 - 00:56:16:00 Daniel Abrahams So but that's, that's the joy of like collaborating. 00:56:16:02 - 00:56:49:18 John Simmerman What's interesting to the imagery. And I'm glad that the imagery was what it was, because I try to remind folks and I talk with Melissa and Chris about this all the time, is that the beauty of the Dutch cycle Network is 60 to 70% of it is shared space. It's essentially streets that have been traffic calmed down to a level where at 30km/h or less, all ages and abilities feel safe getting around their city. 00:56:49:18 - 00:57:33:06 John Simmerman And so you don't need protected and separated cycle infrastructure everywhere. That would be impossible. That is reserved only for streets where motor vehicle traffic is prioritized to travel faster than essentially 20mph, you know, faster than 30km/h. And so the imagery of of a streetscape being a people oriented place where people in wheelchairs are being able to feel like they can, you know, roll through down the street and across the street and kids can be there all ages, all abilities, and it doesn't need to everything be protected and separated. 00:57:33:07 - 00:57:55:02 John Simmerman Cycle infrastructure. The Dutch mantra is share when possible, separate when necessary. Simple as that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really beautiful. Really beautiful. What has been the response to this video compared to the earlier works that you have done? 00:57:55:05 - 00:58:05:17 Daniel Abrahams The earlier ones was when I was still

on Twitter and I wasn't really active, but you know, I put the videos on Twitter and I think there's a big cycling community on there. And they they went quite far. 00:58:05:17 - 00:58:07:25 John Simmerman And there used to be. 00:58:07:27 - 00:58:18:15 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. Right. There used to be. Yeah. And also there's a, there's a lot of haters and they also, you know, kind of got picked up by the kind of by the hooligans or something. And whereas now. 00:58:18:18 - 00:58:20:29 John Simmerman I apologize for that as well. 00:58:21:02 - 00:58:45:20 Daniel Abrahams No. And now there's, you know, the kind of it was released on various social media channels. And I think it got a really good response. You know, it was shared a lot, possibly in the kind of echo chambers, you know, but there was also kind of comments from around the world coming in and. 00:58:45:23 - 00:58:49:24 Daniel Abrahams Yeah, I don't know, it's kind of. 00:58:49:26 - 00:59:01:24 Daniel Abrahams I'm very self-critical as well. So when I've released, I kind of work a lot to release a song and then I'll be like, oh, is it even good? And does anyone even like it? And was it even worth making? 00:59:01:26 - 00:59:07:18 John Simmerman So it was worth making. Yes, definitively it was worth making. 00:59:07:25 - 00:59:35:11 Daniel Abrahams Okay. Yeah. So you know, but again it's comes back to this thing that I was talking about that Rebecca Solnit talks about of like accepting that your contributions and various like actions, it's really hard to quantify what their effectiveness is, what the benefit was. But I think if you if you believe in them and you kind of think that they're worth while and that they're fun to do anyway, then you know, why not do them? 00:59:35:11 - 00:59:51:21 Daniel Abrahams And I'll never know how beneficial this was in a sense. But you know, if you feel it kind of I feel compelled to do these things, really. So kind of it's irrelevant really, in the end, how successful it was. 00:59:51:24 - 01:00:21:09 John Simmerman And this is a still shot again of Yann Kaminski, brilliant work that he does. And he just has an entire library of really fun and exciting transformation street transformations. He's he's really thrived in this environment of of decarbonizing de motor vehicle izing streetscapes. And so you'll see the stop signs and the, you know, and all these things just going up into the air. 01:00:21:09 - 01:00:40:07 Daniel Abrahams So with no AI, by the way, he does it all himself by hand on the computer. So yeah, but check out his work. It's incredible. And he's these were kind of like quick, quick. This is kind of these were kind of just quick ones for him I suppose. You know he was like he was like, I've got a bit of time, I'll do what I can. 01:00:40:13 - 01:00:47:03 Daniel Abrahams But if look on his website, you'll see the kind of the huge transformations of Mexico City and Paris and stuff. 01:00:47:07 - 01:01:15:01 John Simmerman Yeah, yeah. And again, imagining what our streetscapes can be turning our streets over, especially in historic older cities, turning the streets back over to the people I mean, and I always re-emphasize that over and over and over again, turning the streets back over to people because the streets were meant for people to begin with. And so we're just it's not like we're taking stuff away. 01:01:15:03 - 01:01:19:02 John Simmerman We're just transforming it back to what it was before. 01:01:19:04 - 01:01:21:26 Daniel Abrahams And making it more pleasant for everybody, you know? 01:01:21:27 - 01:02:00:06 John Simmerman Exactly. Yes, yes. And I think that that's one of the things that bicycle advocates and activists sometimes miss is they're so focused on getting their way and getting some wins here and there that again, it's that othering thing. It seems like it's a war against everybody else versus transforming the message into what we really want to do is to create a more people oriented environment where everyone benefits, including people who have to drive. 01:02:00:08 - 01:02:15:00 John Simmerman You know, maybe that's their job. They will thrive and survive much better. And, you know, and you're welcome, because these types of transformations could save your life one day. 01:02:15:02 - 01:02:24:02 Daniel Abrahams Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. You know, people, people who need to use cars will have more, will be able to move around the city more easily because they'll be less people. 01:02:24:04 - 01:03:00:01 John Simmerman That's a that's a really, really good point, Daniel. People will oftentimes point to the Netherlands and say, yeah, it's a great place to ride a bike. You know, again, extensive cycle networks in city after city after city. But and again, that cycle network is that combination of the the shared spaces, the strats and the, the the local access roads, the that are very slow speed traffic and low volumes and then the separated pathways and the protected infrastructure. 01:03:00:01 - 01:03:27:03 John Simmerman But more importantly, there's a there's a redundancy of mobility networks. And so in any given day, you may be a person who walks to your destination, you may be a person who writes a bike to your destination. You may take transit or you may drive a car. And they have the highest satisfaction rates of car drivers. Why? Because a significant number of the population isn't dependent on writing driving a car. 01:03:27:03 - 01:04:01:00 John Simmerman And so they all work together. There's a redundancy of the mobility networks, and there's a very, very intentional integration of them as well. So you can ride your bike to the train station to jump on the train to, to go from Amsterdam to Utrecht, as an example. Yeah, yeah. The other thing that I love about the imagery that is included here in the music video is the imagery of transforming this into a more eco friendly environment. 01:04:01:00 - 01:04:25:21 John Simmerman You've

got permeable pavers here, you've got rain gardens here, you've got birds that are in place here. And I don't know, there might be even a pollinator or to maybe there's a few bees in there as well. And I think this is another important point to make is that, no, this isn't just about entitled cyclists who just want their space. 01:04:25:21 - 01:04:36:00 John Simmerman And this is about creating a more sustainable and livable environment for everybody. And that's good for the environment as well. 01:04:36:02 - 01:04:56:04 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Adaptation. Yeah. Because, you know, there's this past week there's been heatwaves in Europe and you know, cities which are just concrete jungles. They're going to feel it more than cities who have some trees to cool to cool it down. You know. So yeah, it's it's not just important. It's necessary. 01:04:56:09 - 01:05:25:26 John Simmerman Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning the heat wave. Yeah. So why can't we just be like Amsterdam? Amsterdam wasn't the Amsterdam that we know now. Back in the 1950s and 1960s and into the 70s, because they went all in on making space for cars and they became a car choked place that the streets had, you know, tragic incidences all the time. 01:05:25:26 - 01:05:44:01 John Simmerman So even Amsterdam wasn't the Amsterdam we know now. So, Daniel, you've had a chance to let this sink in a bit and you've had a chance to let this video get out there. What are you hearing back from people when they respond to this question? Why can't we be just like Amsterdam? 01:05:44:07 - 01:05:50:07 Daniel Abrahams I think I mean, people agreeing basically. 01:05:50:08 - 01:05:50:20 John Simmerman Yeah. 01:05:50:20 - 01:05:57:15 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. You know, you know, like, yeah, I think sorry, I've slightly lost the train in my thought really, but. 01:05:57:16 - 01:06:01:06 John Simmerman Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think you're right. I mean, people are basically agreeing. 01:06:01:06 - 01:06:22:04 John Simmerman They're saying, well, yeah, you're kind of right. I guess the next thing is when the bigger global question of why can't we be like Amsterdam? And that is okay, how do we actually do this? How do we take card dependency and change that? That's a huge thing to try to change. 01:06:22:07 - 01:06:46:28 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. But but you know, we need to stop because even if it's not perfect, we need to start because it it took years and years for Holland to Amsterdam to get where they got to. And they're still improving. So even if we're even if we start now and it's not perfect and there's iterations, you know, we'll be progressing and we'll be improving and we'll start to get a critical mass that we talked about before. 01:06:46:29 - 01:07:15:19 John Simmerman I think that's a really, really profound point that you just made there is that it took decades for them to get from the 1970s, when the stopped Kinder Mort and the other protests that were taking place at that time. We also had the oil embargo. And so you had all sorts of of shocks in the system, global oil system, just like we are right now. 01:07:15:21 - 01:07:39:15 John Simmerman You know, there was a confluence of things that took place. And people sometimes don't realize and remember that a lot of these decisions came down to a single vote at the various municipalities. I mean, it was this was not just a slam dunk. And if you go back and you look at the footage to some of those protests were violent. 01:07:39:17 - 01:08:06:08 John Simmerman This was not just, you know, all rosy and, oh, hey, let's do this. I mean, it was hard fought to your point to it has taken decades for them to get to where they are now. They just happen to be 50 years ahead of us. Okay. But your other point is, and another thing I like to emphasize all the time is they have a commitment to continuous improvement. 01:08:06:09 - 01:08:11:08 John Simmerman They're constantly tweaking. They're constantly looking at ways to make it even better. 01:08:11:08 - 01:08:20:20 Daniel Abrahams The good thing is that they've done that. We don't need to reinvent the wheel to start from scratch because like, like Melissa and Chris's work, we can learn from them. And then. 01:08:20:25 - 01:08:22:04 John Simmerman You know, yeah, they like to. 01:08:22:10 - 01:08:47:19 John Simmerman They like to emphasize and they talk about this in their first book, the blueprint for for for Dutch Cycle Network. And the learnings there is that it's a blueprint, but it's not copy paste. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, but you do have to adapt it to your environment because your environment in Edinburgh is different. You know, as we've established, you've got the hills. 01:08:47:19 - 01:09:15:23 John Simmerman And so we have to think about ways to take the basics, the key tenants and adapt them to the environment and adapt them to the culture to make them work. You know, in a way that's going to work for Edinburgh, in a way that's going to work for Austin, Texas, where I was and, you know, we were when we were in Austin, you know, we had a long standing relationship with the Dutch cycling embassy that dates back over a decade. 01:09:15:23 - 01:09:38:15 John Simmerman And so we have what's called a Dutch inspired version to that network that's been in place. And it's phenomenal. I'm in talks with with Chris and Melissa about here in Hawaii. We need to get them out here to the islands to to do the same. But yeah, it'll it'll have to have its own flavor. It'll have to have its own sort of twist to it. 01:09:38:16 - 01:09:44:21 John Simmerman Yeah. Not a simple copy paste for sure, but to your point, not reinventing the wheel each time. Yes. 01:09:44:26 - 01:09:46:19 Daniel Abrahams Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah. 01:09:46:22 - 01:09:49:16 John Simmerman Final thoughts Daniel, as we bring this to a close. 01:09:49:17 - 01:10:16:29 Daniel Abrahams I guess it's like like at the end

of the video, at the end of the credits, it's like, let's stop. Imagine we don't need to just imagine a better future. Let's just make it happen. Let's just start, you know, and I think we kind of know the solutions. We know the arguments. And it's just about kind of everyone digging in and like getting involved and in a way which in a way which speaks to them and change is kind of inevitable. 01:10:16:29 - 01:10:38:28 Daniel Abrahams And it doesn't seem like that until, until until it's past the fact. And then it kind of seems obvious, you know, it didn't it didn't before women had the vote and it didn't seem obvious that they would get it. But after after people campaigned for it, then years later, it's obvious that that was going to happen and needed to happen. 01:10:39:01 - 01:11:06:07 Daniel Abrahams So I think, you know, keeping that in mind and keeping hopeful, I suppose, because I struggle with that. It's like keeping hopeful because we read the news and you think, my God, it's this is tragic. You know, like it's just so scary what's happening politically, environmentally, around the world. And it's I think we have to kind of like hold each other up and be hopeful and and like that hope. 01:11:06:07 - 01:11:15:21 Daniel Abrahams Help is doing. Hope is hope is making stuff happen. Hope. Hope isn't thinking. It's all going to be fine. It's actually taking the the steps to make it. 01:11:15:21 - 01:11:24:02 John Simmerman So my final two questions for you is no puppies and no children were harmed in the making of these videos, correct? 01:11:24:04 - 01:11:25:07 Daniel Abrahams Correct. 01:11:25:09 - 01:11:32:13 John Simmerman Very good. And what's next for you? Do we have more productions in the works for the future? 01:11:32:14 - 01:11:59:21 Daniel Abrahams There's there's no more cycling videos in the works. But in Edinburgh, Finn's Festival, which is a huge arts festival in August, I'm going to be performing the songs live, which is a bit scary, and in a couple of weeks I'm actually going to the Netherlands for the premiere of a string quartet, which I wrote for a Dutch string quartet, and so I'm really looking forward to just like working with the quartet. 01:11:59:23 - 01:12:11:23 Daniel Abrahams Nothing to do with cycling. And but I will be cycling and getting the train to go to the concerts and rehearsals. So that's just kind of. You know, that's going to be.. 01:12:11:26 - 01:12:13:18 John Simmerman Yeah that's great. 01:12:13:21 - 01:12:18:04 Daniel Abrahams So yeah, I'm looking forward to that. To raise the supplies to to just be that be there and experience that. 01:12:18:05 - 01:12:25:29 John Simmerman Yeah. Do you have some links that you can send to us either on YouTube or otherwise on your music. 01:12:26:02 - 01:12:27:14 Daniel Abrahams On the string quartet? 01:12:27:15 - 01:12:27:28 Featured Video Audio Yeah. 01:12:27:29 - 01:12:29:18 John Simmerman Yeah, that type of it's. 01:12:29:20 - 01:12:51:26 Daniel Abrahams Yeah. It's a, it's almost finished. And so the piece isn't you can't listen to it yet, but there's a butter quartet and the piece is called The Same Air. And it's about kind of how Scottish people used to live in this part of the Netherlands called Verda. And there will be a recording made at some point, I think. 01:12:51:27 - 01:13:10:16 John Simmerman Okay, keep us posted because, you know, folks are going to be watching this and they're going to be, well, we want to hear this music. So keep us posted. Send those links over when you get them out and they're ready to go. Daniel Abrams, this has been such a joy and pleasure having you on the Active Towns Channel. 01:13:10:23 - 01:13:12:05 John Simmerman Mahalo. 01:13:12:08 - 01:13:14:29 Daniel Abrahams It was my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. John. 01:13:15:00 - 01:13:29:22 John Simmerman Hey, think you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Daniel. And if you did, please. Hey, give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and be sure to ring that notification bell. 01:13:29:22 - 01:13:48:11 John Simmerman And again, if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an active Town's ambassador. Hey, super easy to do right here in YouTube. You can you just click on the join button as well as make a YouTube Super Thanks contribution or navigate over to Active Towns. Click on the support tab at the top of the page. 01:13:48:11 - 01:14:09:22 John Simmerman There's several different options, including making a charitable donation to my nonprofit advocates for Healthy Communities, where you can become a member of my Patreon. Patrons do get early in ad free access to all this video content, and this is a great opportunity to acknowledge all my active towns in supporting the channel financially. I simply could not produce this content without your support. 01:14:09:23 - 01:14:22:29 John Simmerman Mahalo. New logo. Thank you very much. Again, thank you so much for tuning in today. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers and aloha!