23 | Replacing Mental Clutter with a Rest Practice, with Marissa McKool, MPH의 전체 녹취록

but I didn't know that's what it was. I felt resentful, but I also felt guilty. So I never said no to things and I was trying to do it all and a lot of the advice for feeling better, getting organized, having balance, was all kind of more tactical organizational system based, which definitely has its place but what I didn't realize, what I was struggling with was more my mindset and processing emotions. What I have found now working to help others is when we think about burnout or the way we talk about burnout, we leave out rest, we completely leave it out, we don't talk about it. I think that's a huge gap and a disservice. It's not just in the context of burnout, but in our society as a whole. Amelia: Yes. Well we're going to get into that and I know that I'm getting ahead of myself because I want to ask you a question that I will ask all of my guests, which is, we talk about organization, you're talking about rest. What did these ideas or concepts look like for you as a child or as you were growing up? Marissa: Yeah, so I love my mother dearly, but I have to say it felt a little chaotic growing up because I think she was experiencing what many women still do around the socialization of your value and worth is dependent on how clean your home looks or how much you do for others. She really struggled to do stuff for herself and she was always stressed out about how clean the house was and didn't want people to come over to see. So I kind of saw that and I got that modeled for me, at the same time there were so many things that were amazing. Like I could ask her, where is this and she knew exactly where it was? So she was just keeping a mental tally all the time, which I just can't imagine how much work that was for her. There are three kids, she worked a full-time graveyard shift.  So there was chaos. There was, I don't want to say disorganization, I saw how the patriarchy socialized her, but I also saw some of the amazing gifts she had to be able to keep track of things and keep on top of a lot of stuff. And she really didn't give herself permission to rest or slow down. She was on top of all her activities, what we needed, doctor's appointments but I know that was a lot for her. Amelia: That is exactly what my audience wants to hear because I talk a lot about the mental load, which is what you're referencing, keeping track of everything. And we don't realize, I think oftentimes what our children or other family members, what they see from the outside. So I appreciate that you shared your perspective from a child's eyes at that moment and then tied it into rest in particular, because I'm sure she wasn't often sitting down at the end of the day. I mean, how much did you witness that? Marissa: No, what I witnessed was, which I see in myself too, struggling to sit down for long periods. It's like you sit down and it's like, oh, I remember I have to do this other thing. Oh, I need to change the laundry. Oh, I need to do this. So it's up and down, up

and down. I remember, we'd watch TV or movies and that would happen a lot and now I do that all the time too. So this is in no way a criticism to her or anyone else, I think we're all socialized around this. She was socialized by her mom in the fifties, how she was socialized around her role as a housewife and a mom and all of that. So we all get these messages modeled for us from our family or just the movies or the patriarchy. And it's not criticism, it's just helpful to understand where they're coming from, where some of these behaviors or challenges might be coming from. Amelia: Yes and that is socialization, if you're not familiar with that particular word. It's exactly that, the messages that were sent from our family members and our community. So I love that real-life example for sure. So let's move into a little bit of rest chat. So I would love for you to define for everyone what you mean when you say rest, because I think most of us think about it in terms of a nap or sleeping in or going on a long vacation. Marissa: Yes and that's what we've been told. Amelia: I would also like to bring in a little bit in a moment of perfectionism and overworking our obstacles to rest. So what does rest mean for you on a weekly basis or within your world? Marissa: So, I mean, you're exactly right. We've been told rest is very limited to sleeping, to vacation, which I don't think is true at all. I actually think it's much more helpful to break down rest because we do have physical rest.  If you just ran a marathon, maybe not running for a little bit is the rest you need. We also have emotional rest, processing your emotions, allowing your emotions, not having them build up. We have mental rest, like the chatter in your brain, this negative self-talk and then there's physiological rest. The rest that's happening, we don't have much control over, like when you are sleeping, your muscles are repairing, for example or your brain is consolidating memories. So it's much bigger than a nap or vacation and also rest is specific and unique to each person. We're kind of sold to this idea that rest just fits in this box. It's one size fits all, one shoe size for everyone and that's not true.  One example I heard from someone, which I love, she said, my husband thinks traffic is restful, he loves sitting in traffic. I was like, that's a perfect example because a lot of people wouldn't think that. But it is so different for every person of what helps create mental rest or emotional rest or physical rest and it changes week to week, day to day for us in the chapters of our lives, it's so much more expansive than just taking a vacation, which can be restful of course but we've all also taken a vacation and not felt rested. We're just worried about all the activities and running around and worried about the emails when we get back and then we have that saying, I need a vacation for my vacation. So when we start to think about rest this way, it opens up a lot more potential to integrate more rest, mental or emotional into your life. Amelia: I love what you said about the traffic example because I don't resonate specifically with that, but I do know that I take several moments of silence oftentimes in the car if I'm alone before I transition to an appointment or an activity or into my home and when you talk about rest, can it also be short periods as well as longer periods? Because I feel like that is just re-energizing itself, sitting there, breathing deeply for three to five minutes before I head into my next activity. Marissa: Yeah, I mean I really think of rest as giving your mind and body what it needs. So sometimes it is just a few short breaths, sometimes it's stepping outside for your lunch. Sometimes it's taking care of your plants. I'm not a plant lady. I do not find them restful, but many people do. So it's just being able to respond to your mind and body and I think this is where we have a lot of barriers because we're socialized, we're taught, well rest is earned, rest is a reward. So you have to get it all done to then rest but when you're then overworking, when you're trying to get it all done, your mind and body is probably trying to tell you, this is too much. We need a little break but it's hard to tune into. It's really a skill to tune into. Amelia: So talk a little bit more about that, the overworking and maybe perfectionism when it comes to either the household or work-life integration. Marissa: Yeah, and to be honest, I think it's the same across and I've coached so many women. We start off coaching on career and work and then the same things are happening at home. Part of it is the patriarchy, which is the system that promotes various ideas about how folks should be socialized around their gender and their roles but particularly for people socialized as women we're taught by the patriarchy that your value and worth is dependent on doing everything for everyone else and what they think of you and being perfect and this happens very unconsciously or it sounds like little innocent thoughts in your brain that seem just like true facts and that can drive us to continue to spend all Saturday trying to get all 20 chores done and feel exhausted by the end of the day or at work, work late every night because we keep telling ourselves, I have to get this done. I have too much to do. Additionally, particularly in the US context, there's also this hustle culture that says success. You'll get happy once you get success and success comes from doing it all, always doing and that's all that matters. So those things unconsciously really drive a lot of us to not take a moment to rest for ourselves, to keep always busy doing stuff and to keep kind of feeling like we can't stop, that we have to, that we don't have a choice, which isn't true. Amelia: Yes. I know that's going to resonate so much with my listeners and again, we feel it, we know that we're on the hamster wheel, we know that we're in the

cycle, we can see the wheels sort of turning and there's the difference between knowing something I think in your head and then practicing it in real life. We know that we need rest, we know that we're overworking or that perfectionism may be flaring or we can see it show up in our own life. How do you suggest that folks actually change their behavior or try to get rest when the home or work projects aren't complete if things aren't tidy, if they're not clean to our personal standards that we've set for ourselves? Marissa: Yeah and what you're saying at the beginning of that, we're also really good at championing others to get rest and take a break  but it's much harder for us to be our own champion. I think sometimes what gets in the way, even if we know we're overworking or we know we want to create more time, is this concept called the arrival fallacy. And I forget who kind of created it, but it's this idea of like, well once I have this done then I can rest, then I can feel good. But then what happens, you get to that point, your brain thinks of 10 more things to do because there will always be more to do. Amelia: I call it the bottomless bucket.  Marissa: Yeah. So I think a lot of this I would actually start with the mindset of like what are those little innocuous thoughts that you're thinking, like oh I just have to get one more thing done or once this is done then I can relax and notice then when you try to relax, your brain just offers you a million more things. So a lot of times I encourage folks, even if it feels silly, even if your brain thinks it's stupid to start intentionally practicing thoughts like I can rest. Rest is available to me. I don't have to get it all done. I choose how to use my time and if that feels too far of a jump you can throw in like a maybe or it's possible, maybe I can rest, it's possible I could take a two minute break and that's the other piece I think when people try to start integrating rest, they don't set a doable goal. They're like, okay, every single day this week I'm going to read for an hour and maybe you haven't read leisurely in six months. That's just going to disrupt your life. You're not going to be able to continue it. Picking something that's more doable, okay, I want to read for 10 minutes this week and then practicing those thoughts, I get to choose to read. Rest is always available to me. I don't have to get to the laundry right now. I can read and then get to it. It does take that talking to yourself and talking yourself through it and practicing those thoughts, it's such an important piece of it because our socialization around this is so deep, so just doing a plan and taking action isn't going to work because those thoughts are still going to be there. You have to work on the thoughts. Amelia: Yes. And those are some of the kind of hidden or lesser known lesser disgusted things when it comes to taking rest and taking a break and changing your standards or expectations because of what I often talk about and many in the professional organizing industry is, of course you can set a goal of clearing out the attic in a weekend, but that often creates a sense of overwhelm and dread and then you end up not doing the organization project but starting. Marissa: And then you judge yourself and feel shame. Amelia: Exactly.  Marissa: I think that's another big piece is really looking at the self-judgment or the shame and the guilt because it's kind of two sides to one coin. Those emotions, especially if you're not processing them or working on them, they can drive a lot of these behaviors. Guilt can drive you to continue to do more. Shame, like feeling judgment of yourself for not doing enough can drive you to not rest and so being mindful of those and really working through processing them and creating the ability to feel proud because I guarantee all of you listening, there are things in your life you can be proud of. Things every day you're doing, you can be proud of and feel good about yourself and generating that emotion will create more momentum to give yourself permission to rest and take a break than the shame and guilt will. Amelia: I love it. I often tell my audience that they're more organized than they think. Marissa: Yes. We're always so hard on ourselves and that I think comes from the patriarchy too, with perfectionism. Amelia: Yes. This is so good. I love it. So I want to tell a brief story. I often consciously set aside time for rest, specifically in the summer. Sometimes I do in the winter, but I try to take three or four weeks where I am actively practicing rest and for those of you listening, it's not that I'm not meeting with clients and doing my minimum expectations with work, but that I'm consciously sort of moving myself into this space of not doing the shoulds or the full package that I might do. I communicate this to my family members, I say I'm practicing resting and honestly it doesn't always feel amazing. So I would love for you to talk about that process of going into rest and maybe I would offer, for me, I would forewarn that your journey to rest may not always feel awesome at the beginning. Marissa: Yeah. We've kind of also been told this idea that rest feels magical and so good and then if it doesn't feel that way, most of us stop resting because we're like we haven't earned it or something's gone wrong. The truth is rest is 50-50. Half the time you take rest, whatever that looks like, it's not going to feel amazing. And half the time it will feel really good and that's just how it's going to be for the rest of your life. I think once you accept that, that it is 50-50 so much easier to take rest and when you take rest and you feel that discomfort, especially at the beginning, especially if you're not used to giving yourself permission to rest, your brain's going to keep chattering on about what you should be doing. You might feel some guilt. That's okay. It doesn't mean anything. You can sit through that

discomfort and I like to think of rest as a practice, like meditation, like yoga, me sitting through that discomfort. It's not necessarily to get to some point where I feel a sense of bliss, it's to practice rest. The more you practice it, the easier it is to get through that discomfort and there are times where rest will feel really good. It's just not going to always be that way and that's not why we always do it. Sometimes we do it because our brain needs to recharge, our body needs to recharge, we need to process emotions. This is why it's important to see rest as more than just a spa day. It's for our mind and body ultimately. Amelia: Yes. That's amazing. And I will say, again, I wasn't taking full steps away from my work and my clients, but just consciously excluding things that might be habits of mine and I will say that the first week was super hard, those thoughts were coming in, pouring in and week two it got a little bit quieter, which is why I think I intentionally gave myself three weeks or a month because I know that when you step off the plane, even from vacation, your mind is still in that loop of all the things that are happening at home, all the things that are happening at work and oftentimes it does take a day or two. There's a transition phase into relaxation and rest. So I'm glad that you touched on that in particular, the 50 50. Marissa: Yeah. I think when people hear, I'm a rest coach, they have this idea that I've gotten to a place of enlightenment and I'm just enjoying it. I'm blissful and just relax all the time. That's not true. That's not what a rested life is at all. We are humans. We live in a complex world. The patriarchy and hustle culture continue to send us messages. We have full lives that we're balancing. We have tragedies, we have negative emotions. Like a rested life doesn't mean you are in bliss all the time. It means you are practicing, again practicing not perfecting, listening to your mind and body, giving yourself what you need. You won't be perfect at it and it doesn't have to be, I'm going to take a year off and travel. If that's rest for you, that's great but rest can look so many different ways.  It's so important to really see it as unique and personal because for some of you listening, you might have different circumstances than me or than Amelia. That doesn't mean you can't rest. It's just about figuring out what rest looks like to you, given what's going on in your life no matter where you live, how many kids you have. If you're a single parent, if you work, your financial situation, you can rest no matter what's going on. It's you figuring out what it is to you Amelia: And such a value that you offer your clients and your community because what you're teaching is a skill that people can implement or activate at any moment. So it's not just taking a year off from life and then coming back home to the same issues or problems or internal self-judgment. You're offering and teaching folks how to really activate this on a weekly basis or any time that they notice. Marissa: And it is a skill, we've kind of been taught like rest is just a gift you're given. Magically it'll feel good if you get enough done and that keeps us on the hamster wheel. It's a skill to integrate rest into your day-to-day life and allow the flexibility of it and the fluidity and to not be perfect. It's a skill everyone can build and everyone can practice and when you do, you are able to get, you talk about like mental clutter, clutter-free life. You start, this helps with that, decreasing the mental clutter, processing emotions and as you know, that translates into how we show up in our life, how we show up to our kids, to our work, to our home organization. It's all connected. Amelia: Yes, totally. I want to talk about a little bit more about the process of actually how unlearning these patriarchal standards, these messages, just our internal process that were our current habits, how unlearning and checking in with oneself, checking in with one's partner, having these open conversations and dialogue within a home. How does that make a difference when one partner or one person stands up and says like, hey, it's time for rest. I'm changing my life, I'm going to start practicing this. Marissa: Yeah. Sometimes, as you've probably talked about and folks listening understand, when one person does that, whether the rest that they're saying is me and my partner just had this conversation, we need to shift up how we're doing the dishes so it's distributed differently because we need rest. The balance is off. That is basically changing a norm in your household or changing a habit and sometimes that's a challenge. Sometimes the other person may have different thoughts than you, may struggle to adapt, you might struggle to adapt because you're in this habit. But when you think of it as an ongoing skill, an ongoing practice, it's not all or nothing, then you can just take little steps, just one thing at a time. So what we did with the example of the dishes, it was like, okay, let's try out a system where we just split the days, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we take every other day whatnot. Let's just try it out for a week and then we can talk about how we feel afterwards. So it wasn't like, this is forever and I have to always do this perfectly and you have to change. It was like, okay, together, let's just try something new and we can always tweak it again and honestly if we move, if we have kids, we'll probably have to tweak it again. Amelia: Yes and as a certified fair play facilitator, that really resonates with me because just having the conversation is the first starting point and understanding why it's important to give a partner a break and one person carry the mental load and complete a task from beginning to end is huge but the ultimate goal is always really to have an hour to yourself a week, have some space for you to pursue a personal passion or an interest, which I

imagine even just refilling your cup or doing something that you love. I'm curious if that also falls into the category of rest. Marissa: Yeah. Oh my gosh, joy is such an important part of rest. Connection with people is such an important part of rest. For some people like myself, alone time is a really important part of recharging for me, for other people not as much. So the purpose is to free some of that up and what I find is we want to go to all or nothing again where it's like, oh, just shifting the dishes, that's not enough so we just don't do it. But that's not true, even just like 10 minutes can make a huge difference. And as you do it, you build momentum and you can shift more habits and there can be this piece of just avoiding even having that conversation because of the underlying guilt or shame that you might not be aware you're even feeling. There might be some challenges depending on your partner's socialization, whether it's from the patriarchy or family of having the discussion about why this is important.  So for example, I do a lot of our travel planning and some of that is actual, but a lot of it is me thinking through logistics. That's work. My partner never would think to do that unless I say, hey, can you do this? It's just not something that comes to his mind. So having to explain, here I'm doing this piece, I'm really thinking through logistics to make our trips easier. That takes some of my time. Amelia: It does. Marissa: They might not completely understand it. That's okay. It doesn't mean it's not important to share and have that conversation. Amelia: Yes. To make visible what is happening behind the scenes. That's absolutely huge. Well this has been tremendous. I have loved talking to you. Marissa: This has been great and you talk so much about like decluttered life connecting to mental and emotional experience, which is so true. When it comes to organizing and having an organized home or clean, I think we've been sold this idea, it looks one way and that's so not true. When you declutter your mind, when you get mental and emotional rest, you can give yourself permission to stop judging and have your, like if you looked at my office right now, a lot of people would say, that's not organized. This works for me, I have no judgment but it took me so long to get here and I had to do that mental and emotional work. Amelia: I love that and the notes that I took down were on the different types of rest that you spoke about. The mental, the emotional, the physiological, like that is just huge, to think about it in a multidimensional way because we do put so much pressure on ourselves and I talk about why domestic perfection is a myth and really aiming for that goal will actually cause you more stress and strain than necessary and will probably take you further from rest and relaxation, joy and connection. Marissa: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Amelia: So the last question I want to ask you, we spoke in the beginning about what organization or rest looked like in your childhood. What is one way that you employ the idea of organization in your life now? Marissa: So I thought about this a lot because I really used to be at such a place where I was that person who was trying to be perfect. I would be so mean to myself if I didn't open the mail right when it came in, or if I didn't pay the bills right when I got them, or I didn't have the laundry done. I mean I was like a drill sergeant to myself. Now I've just come to a place of accepting that I can't have everything perfectly done and organized in every area of my life. I don't have the time or energy. So how that has kind of shifted out is in my work, that's where I put a lot of my energy for being organized and on top of things and I've really let go of some of this stuff at home for me. That works for me.  So I let my mail pile up sometimes and I let my laundry overflow sometimes and that's okay because I know me doing that allows me to put more energy elsewhere where I want to be more organized right now and that's probably going to shift at some point. It's not forever, but it is for right now. So I think the way I've started to look at organization differently than when I grew up is that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You can choose where you want to focus it and other places you can let go of the judgment and not make it mean anything about yourself. Amelia: That's so beautifully said. It's combining a sense of having clear priorities. Marissa: Yes. Amelia: Personal permission and an alignment between the two. Marissa: Yes and I am in a partnership. So the other piece of that is I do prioritize the things we share in showing up to that partnership and contributing and also having those discussions when we need to alter shift stuff or asking for if I need something. So that's another area I prioritize, but I just had to come to a place where I can't prioritize all of it. I can't all be perfectly organized and clean and I'm just going to decide intentionally on purpose where I do want to focus and not judge myself where I'm not. And that's okay. Amelia: Thank you so much for saying that. I love it. Well I know I could talk to you for hours Marissa, tell everyone how they can connect with you and follow you. I know you have an amazing podcast called Redefining Rest podcast for public health professionals. So tell us all the things. Marissa: Yeah, you can come check that out even if you don't work in public health, lots of folks, social workers, doctors, teachers, so many folks actually listen in because there's not many spaces where rest is being talked about and talked about around socialization. So anywhere you get a podcast, you can check that out. If you're on LinkedIn you can connect with me, Marissa McCool and on Instagram I'm tagged public health coach. Come send me a message if you have questions. Love to connect with all of you. Amelia: Yes. And I think you have a course on your website?  Marissa: Yes I do. So right now I have a free course called “How to Delegate to Reduce Your Workload” and actually I'm so glad you brought this up because when I originally released this on LinkedIn, someone commented about something with their partner and I reply to say I delegate to my partner all the time and they were shocked that I said that. I think delegation just means entrusting a task to someone else. So if you struggle with entrusting a task to teenage kids or to your partner, not just at work, I encourage you to come take it, how to delegate to reduce your workload. It talks through all of the discomfort you might feel and what delegation looks like in those contexts. Amelia: The keyword there that just popped out at me is trust. Marissa: Yes. Amelia: And this is why we could continue talking because I think that that's a challenge for many women as well to trust that the other person will do it and follow through fully. So I'm sure your course is very valuable. Marissa: Yeah and it also doesn't mean like, hey, you do this, I'm your authoritative leader. It's not like that either, it's a request to someone and entrusting them and then it's a conversation ultimately. Amelia: Beautifully said. Well, thank you so much for your time and it was lovely chatting with you.  Marissa: Thanks so much for having me. Great meeting you all. Hope we connect soon. Outro: Hey, y'all my monthly Second Friday's Workshop Series is here. Join me on the second Friday of every month in 2023 for a practical, no frills, come as you are hour of teaching and coaching. I'll show you exactly how I handle one area of home organization, then the floor will be open for questions and coaching. We'll troubleshoot what's feeling challenging for you and get you unstuck on the spot. Find out more and register at www.apleasantsolution.com/workshops or via Instagram @apleasantsolution. Can't wait to meet you.