Mastering Workplace Negotiations | How to Ace Interviews with Dave Wolovsky의 전체 녹취록

that's the work behind the scenes. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:57.040 Um, and it does take time. 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:21.839 But then there's the work like right before the moment, which you can also do, um, which involves things like uh mindfulness and basically just understanding your signature of nerves and anxiety and anticipation and befriending it and notice like accepting that it's gonna happen no matter what for the rest of your life, whenever you go into a high-stakes moment. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:36.800 Because even if you're like an expert at something, you are going to have times where you're reaching for a higher level of something, and that's going to feel intense and make you anxious, and you're gonna get the same feeling of nerves that you've always gotten. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:39.120 Yeah, so true. 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:44.000 I just want to underscore what you said that it takes practice. 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:50.240 It takes practice to detach yourself from the outcome, right? 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:57.439 Because as you said, we all the reason we are feeling anxious is because we want it so bad. 00:06:57.759 --> 00:06:59.920 But how do you find that balance? 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:07.600 And you put it just so beautifully that, you know, preparation is going to be a big aspect, a big part of it. 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:18.160 Just building up on that, interviews often feel like a stressful interrogation rather than like a balanced two-way conversation, right? 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:28.639 Uh what specific shift in mindset helps candidates treat the meeting as a mutual like evaluation of fit? 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:38.079 Yeah, because ideally you want to walk into it and think like I am evaluating them as well as they're evaluating me. 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:45.600 And um, and really I would say also an ideal place to be is you're happy to talk about yourself. 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:48.160 Like that's that's the key, right? 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:51.120 For networking and for uh interviews. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:08:15.680 Because when you're in a space, a headspace where you don't really feel comfortable showing up and and talking about yourself, or you're not really excited to talk about yourself, then um you come across as guarded and you're not able to focus as much because you're like, oh, you know, like, oh, I hope they don't ask this question or something like that. 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:21.920 That's often a blocker for people in interviews, is they have one question that they really don't want to talk about. 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:26.879 And a lot of work that I do with people for interviews is like, let's talk about that, right? 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:33.360 Let's get to that question so that you can have a story that you feel comfortable telling. 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:40.799 And that, because usually when you get into the details of the truth, you can find some way of explaining it that makes sense. 00:08:40.960 -->

00:08:51.279 Because, like, you know, most of our decisions in life, they make sense in context, but we're afraid of, you know, oh, I don't know how to explain it, or they're not gonna see it the way I saw it, or something like that. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:09:05.600 So when you um clear that up inside you, and you're just like, oh yeah, if they do ask this, I could answer it, then you show up differently altogether because you don't have that one saying that you're like trying to protect and hide. 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:08.080 Yeah, absolutely. 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:08.879 Absolutely. 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.919 That's a great tip because honestly, I never placed it that way. 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:22.080 Like that everything makes sense given the context, given what context it took place in. 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:40.639 So if you could have that story ready in which the context is part of the approach you're taking, or or whatever you have to present to the organization or to your boss about, then it's like, oh, it completely makes sense. 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:43.519 Like, you know, why would I guard it? 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:44.879 Just like you said. 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:58.240 And I think it it is a great way to balance the power dynamic in the room too, because often if you're going for an annual review and or a job interview, guess what? 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:02.399 We're always thinking, well, they have more power. 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:08.879 So I have to now present in a way that, you know, that I really want this. 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:17.039 I want that job, or I want that promotion, or I want that increase in my pay. 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:24.799 So are there any other practical techniques to just subtly balance the power dynamic? 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:25.600 Mm-hmm. 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.279 Yeah, I mean, for both of these examples, it's kind of similar. 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:36.000 And for negotiations in general, again, this goes back to the behind the scenes work, which is finding other options. 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:48.639 It takes time, it's hard, it's stressful, but it is the only real way to make sure that when you show up, you don't have that too much of like wanting it, right? 00:10:48.799 --> 00:11:11.200 And then what happens is that it is that power dynamic like is radically different where you're if you don't have any other options or you don't have information about like where you stand and you don't feel good about where you stand in general, then you're always going to show up with more kind of neediness, urgency, and things like that. 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.759 And again, that's not that's not easy, right? 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:15.120 That's that is the hard work. 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:18.879 That is the substance of a job search or performance review, like promotion. 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:24.159 That's the work is is making sure that you are looking for other options. 00:11:24.559 --> 00:12:00.080 And that being said, if you don't feel like you have other options, then you know, the the realistic assessment of where you are and and how you stand in in the state of things with this negotiation or interview, it's important to be able to be realistic about that and not like, you know, if you try to come across as like, oh, I'm evaluating you as well, but the reality in your brain subconsciously is like, uh-oh, I hope I get this. 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:08.399 It's gonna come across as as arrogant and like overstated, overly uh sort of like like performative, you know. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:09.840 Absolutely. 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:18.000 So yeah, so the the substance of the work is making sure that you're you're hustling to like get information, get other options. 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:19.120 Yeah. 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:28.320 Um and and honestly, though, some you know, like every every negotiation interview, whatever, is the start of a relationship or the continuing of a relationship. 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:32.639 And so in many ways, it's always a test of the other person. 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.159 Do I want to be continue a relationship with this person? 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:41.360 So when you negotiate, it it's also a like a test. 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.679 Do you, you know, where are you gonna get red flags? 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:55.360 Are you going to you don't because you don't want to enter a situation where you start a job, for example, or you continue a job with a boss that that's just gonna make your life horrible. 00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:01.120 Like it's better to do the hustling and get the other options than to like let that happen. 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:01.600 Yeah. 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:02.559 Absolutely. 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:12.639 And I wanna just uh expand on a couple of things you just said that uh you should always be hustling and go in with a couple of options, like in your hand, right? 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:19.039 I understand it's not always possible, but you know, try to make that happen if you can. 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:37.120 The other thing that you said, which is wonderful because I've come across so many people who took the job because their situation warranted that, you know, they should take the job, but then they just stayed there for three months and then they're like, uh, this is not a good fit. 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:43.679 And I'm not saying, you know, that don't try and you know, trying and experimenting is part of it. 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:54.960 However, to increase your chances of ending up in an organization where you're a good fit, all of these things do come into play. 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.399 Like, did you do the work beforehand, right? 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:00.960 Did you have multiple options? 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:12.240 Did you try to understand beforehand if this relationship is the relationship that you want to continue with this team, with this

organization? 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.320 So all good stuff, really. 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:28.799 I and I don't think so that when we are, especially if we are job hunting, there is a certain aspect of desperation there, uh which kind of takes over. 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:48.799 But if we could give ourselves like a certain time period, like three to six months for job hunting, and then put all these practical tips that you shared, Dave, into practice, I think we would end up in an organization where we would like to stay long term. 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:50.399 Yeah. 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.200 And actually, if I if I can continue with that, because I think that's a really important point. 00:14:55.360 --> 00:15:00.240 And this is the people who really need the help the most are those who feel very desperate. 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:07.919 And that is one of those stories that I have worked with people a lot on, which is why am I looking for so long? 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:12.080 Like I hope they don't ask me why I haven't had a job for a year, right? 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:26.240 And the the reality is, I have never worked with someone who is not doing something interesting or important without the job, right? 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.000 They're searching, but they're doing something. 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:43.039 And so, like, if you find that story that's authentic to you and you enjoy talking about, um, it really changes everything because you you get these blinders in the desperation where you're like, oh, I have nothing. 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.000 And it's really, I mean, I've never found it to be true, where someone is just doing nothing, right? 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.960 They're like, if you don't have a job, you have time on your hands. 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:56.240 So you're probably doing something, you're learning something, you are whatever, networking in different ways. 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.399 And so that's one thing, which is get clear on your story. 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.799 But the other thing is the hustle itself. 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:10.720 Uh, one of the most important things I that I have found personally in working with people is make the hustle easy. 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:20.320 You have to, the ease of it is the only goal because the job search is so uncertain that it stops when you get lucky. 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:25.600 And so you just have to keep going and survive the process long enough to get lucky. 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.360 Okay, I want to expand on that a little further. 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.559 You said it stops when you get get lucky. 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.240 What do you mean by that? 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:36.159 I mean it's so uncertain. 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:42.159 Like the factors, you know, you you get an interview, you're like, oh wow, I didn't think I would get this, or whatever, and you get offers. 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:51.840 It's there, there's the factors that

are external to you that you don't control are so many that you can only do so much, right? 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:56.639 You can craft your stories well, you can apply, and you can talk to people. 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:58.879 And that's pretty much all you can do. 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:03.039 And yes, if you if you do a lot of that, like it's a numbers game. 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:11.119 So what happens is eventually you get lucky, you hit the right moment at the right company or whatever, and you just have no idea. 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.599 So the so a lot of people like don't understand this. 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:29.759 And it's a very to me, it's very clear and simple, and I've but I like have to explain it uh to everybody kind of a few times, is that ease of the process, the ability to continue is the only thing that matters. 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:36.640 Because if you if you focus on too much quality and you like, like, all right, let's just give an example. 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:48.319 Let's say you spend um three hours on one application, how likely are you to like when are you gonna be ready to apply again? 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:52.079 If you spend three hours, right, you're gonna be drained. 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:53.759 You're gonna be like, okay, this sucks. 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:55.039 I can't do this for six months. 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:56.000 Are you kidding? 00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:57.279 Yeah. 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:03.680 But what if you spent you know, 10 minutes on an application and three hours is like 180 minutes? 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:09.279 So that's 18 applications, and you did one of those a day, and you just like just focus on that. 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:21.440 What happens is each application, um, if you spend 10 minutes on it, meaning you're looking at it, you're taking in information, you're tweaking it a little bit, you're gonna, the quality is going to go up incrementally. 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:21.920 Yeah. 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.640 And you're not gonna get drained to the point where you're like, I give up, I can't keep doing this. 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:41.039 Because that's that's the real problem is people just they sabotage by like forcing themselves to spend so much time on one application and then just being like, you know, God, I hope this works, because otherwise I can't do anymore. 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:41.839 Yeah. 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:43.119 Yeah, exactly. 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:44.160 No, I agree. 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.039 I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said. 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:53.359 And thanks for, you know, just expanding that because it's it's a difficult process to grasp. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:05.200 A lot of times, as you just said, that we just are spending so much time and energy into one thing, then we are like, okay, how can it becomes harder to multiply that, right? 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:14.160 So, and I think for anything which is hard or the

outcome is worth it, but the process is hard. 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:18.880 The just like you said, the whole goal should be to make it easier. 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:51.039 So, you know, how can you have that resume ready, which you can just customize, you know, based on let's say that you have three ideal job, you know, descriptions in your head, and maybe you have done the work to put them out on a Google Doc, then how do you just switch the resume from one to the other, or just have that um customized resume ready to go so you don't have to spend that much time, right? 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.160 It all depends upon how many tries. 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.400 It's like a trial and error process, how many times are you trying? 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:00.240 So that's a great way to put it. 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:01.200 I love it. 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:11.920 So I have a few questions that a lot of like my clients have asked, corporate clients have asked, and I'm gonna ask you those next. 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.720 And they are related to salary negotiation. 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:26.480 So one of the questions is from Phil, and Phil asked me, when is the best time to bring up salary in an interview? 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.160 So for we're talking about like for a new job, right? 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.440 Yes, yeah. 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:45.519 So um my philosophy uh, and whenever I do it and and work with people on it, is basically to take it slow and do it later. 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.400 Because like often also it just depends. 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:56.480 The company, sometimes the company will just say, This is the salary, are you okay with that in the first interview, right? 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.079 And if that happens, it's hard to negotiate after that. 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:01.599 You kind of just have to decide. 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:17.359 But if a company, you know, if and what that usually means, if they're really clear, like this is the salary, take it or leave it, is that they they feel like they're in a very strong position where they have a lot of applicants for for this job or a lot of the same role, similar roles. 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.559 And yeah, and so in that case, you just assess. 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:25.440 But if they don't say anything in the beginning, then you don't say anything in the beginning. 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:31.359 That's my general philosophy because your leverage is them wanting you. 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:44.000 It just comes across as it doesn't come across great, and it just you don't have any power or like, or leverage, leverage meaning the ability to get them to want something in the very beginning, right? 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:54.640 But after you've done a few interviews, maybe you've met your manager, maybe you've met their manager or the CEO or whatever, you have more leverage because you've started to create relationships. 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.359 And so

yeah, and you're creating trust, you're building trust, I mean. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.359 Yeah, you're building trust. 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:01.920 Exactly. 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:13.839 So if you feel like you are doing a good job in that and you feel that the the pay is like a little low for what I have made or whatever, it's good to find a reason if you can. 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:16.160 I actually posted on LinkedIn about this today. 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:16.799 Nice. 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:34.480 Basically that the the three steps of communication that I recommend, especially just if you're kind of don't feel super strong, like you're afraid of getting the job rescinded, the the offer rescinded, is just one is like affirm that yes, I really like this company. 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:39.119 I like, I think I would do really good at this job, and I'm excited to do this job well. 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.400 Two is at the same time, I do think it's worth a little bit more. 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:46.079 You know, it's worth X more to do this job. 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:54.960 Um, based on, and again, you could come up with like, I used to get paid this much for this role, or I've seen in my research other roles, or you don't even need a reason. 00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.400 You can just say, I would like X more, you know? 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:00.880 And you don't really have to give a reason. 00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:05.759 And they will like it, that can even be stronger sometimes because they can't refute it. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:18.720 But then, and then you end with basically like, but I understand that there are limitations and you let me know how much you can do more, and let's find something that aligns with both of us. 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.480 Absolutely. 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:21.519 Absolutely. 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:40.880 And sometimes it's also in the multiple interviews or series of interviews, as you mentioned, you can each and every time you're sitting across from the team or the managers or the boss or the CEO, you can be building up on what you have to offer. 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:42.960 What are you bringing to the table? 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.400 Because at the end of the day, that's gonna decide your salary, right? 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:53.279 What results are you gonna be able to bring into this organization with the work that you're gonna perform? 00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:02.079 So every time you go, there should be something that you can add to the to what you're offering. 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.319 I think that always helps. 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:14.640 I just wanna underscore you what you said, that if you could just delay the process or the bringing the number up. 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:23.200 And I and I've seen a lot of people actually do it very early on where they are they are feeling the need to know what the number is gonna be. 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:29.519 So then they they bring it up themselves, where where it should be the other way around, as you just explained to us. 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.400 So great. 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.559 Thanks for explaining that. 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:33.200 Okay. 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.839 The next question is from Jeff, and it's about promotion strategies. 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.200 Jeff said that requesting a promotion can easily trigger intense imposter syndrome, right? 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.319 When he feels like he needs to be at its sharpest. 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:56.000 Do you have any tips that you suggest to people in that situation who are dreading the conversation with their boss? 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:09.519 There's a lot of things you can do in terms of like building relationships and becoming that person who's like your boss really values. 00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:24.079 And and that kind of all comes down to just seeing like what is their what's their stress coming from, and how can I use my skills to like take some of their stress away. 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:32.319 That's generally, even though it seems obvious maybe to say, most people don't think that way. 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:35.359 They think in terms of doing their job well. 00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:44.640 And also, by the way, most people are so focused on how other people are not letting them do their job well, like, oh, this person's getting my way, this person's getting my way, right? 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:47.200 So a lot of people spend so much time there. 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:56.000 And, you know, yeah, I mean, if you're trying to get promoted, there's always an aspect of just like having to go above and beyond a little bit. 00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.400 And I mean, usually there is. 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:00.480 So there's there's that. 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:05.920 But then, and the more you can do that, the less imposter syndrome you'll generally feel. 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:24.640 But then on the other hand, there's like I would again recommend just always be casually looking for other jobs because you that's where you get a little bit of that feeling, like, oh, if this doesn't work out, I'll be okay. 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.400 And, you know, you might be applying or you might not be. 00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:38.240 I would apply just for like go through the process so that when you if you do get laid off or you do decide to quit, you're not like out of practice completely. 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:46.000 And so I I don't I go on job interview, I apply for jobs and go on interviews just myself to test things. 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.480 And also to keep that's a great way to do it. 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.000 Yeah, it's like uh SAT tutors, they take the SAT themselves, right? 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.920 Like you you just you you keep up with it. 00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:58.720 And it's just especially if you're in a good place, like that's the best time to do it. 00:26:58.880 -->

00:27:02.319 And then yeah, you have less imposter syndrome if you know you have other options. 00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:05.200 So, you know, those two things are good. 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.599 Yeah, and and yeah, so thinking about your belief. 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:26.000 No, I think these two, if we just thought uh kept these two practical tips front and center before beforehand in most organizations and on most teams, people know when their a promotion interview or annual review is gonna come up. 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:27.759 You know, they they know ahead of time. 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:43.759 So that being said, if you can start doing that work three months ahead, figuring things out, like how you can best help your boss and the organization to bring results and then have some options in the back, you'll be fine. 00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:54.000 I want to double-click on the first one though, because as you mentioned, a lot of us, we including me sometimes, we are not thinking in those terms, right? 00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:11.519 And I was listening to this podcast, and this professor, Emory University professor was on, and she's like, I've been teaching MBA graduate students for years, and every year she picks like teaching assistants from her cohorts. 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:18.880 And she said that I always have more applications than the positions for TAs. 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:25.440 And she said that this one application stood out over her tenure 10 years at Emory. 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:37.279 And she's like, this applicant, she wrote to me that I understand that as a teaching assistant, my job is gonna be to help you grade papers. 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:45.519 And I also understand that you are teaching four courses this semester, which means you have 600 students under you. 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:53.680 So I would love to help you grade their papers and help with some extra work. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:10.880 And I'm I also know that you are part of this ABC research, which I would love to get just, you know, introduced to if you feel like once I've helped you grading those papers. 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:16.400 And she's like, all the other applicants they get it the other way around. 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:23.200 They're like, oh, so professor, how can we actually get into your research program? 00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:39.519 And she was like, this applicant got down to the fact that uh she understands how busy I am and how she's gonna be able to help me and you know help me be more productive in my work. 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:50.079 And then her second ask was okay, will I be able to get some time doing the research with you as well? 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:52.480 Right? 00:29:53.599 --> 00:30:06.480 So I I believe exactly what you were saying, that a lot of times we're just thinking, you know, it's so hard to get the work accomplished, which we have on our to-do list. 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:13.359 How can we even think about helping our boss or helping the department get ahead? 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:24.720 But I think that's where exactly that roadblock is or obstacle exists, where we have to reframe, reframe that question that, oh, start thinking of ways to make things smoother. 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:31.759 And not only would they make them smoother and more productive for you, but for your whole team too. 00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.920 I think it that's how it works. 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:48.240 So how can team members and employees best quantify their workplace value in a yearly review meeting, which we kind of like just touched upon? 00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:00.559 And the reason I bring this up again is because a lot of people, especially women, female clients, they're like, uh, that's so like cringe. 00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:09.119 I can't do it because I will sound so self-centered and boastful, and I don't boost about myself. 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:12.559 So what do you have to say about that? 00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:13.519 Mm-hmm. 00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:15.200 Yeah, there's a lot here. 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:22.720 First of all, I will just say that most of most of my clients are female, most of my clients are women, and yeah, and I don't know why. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.079 I think it's just my personality, I guess, but there is a difference, you know. 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:28.960 You you kind of do have to approach it differently as a woman. 00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:37.200 But in terms of like quantifying stuff, the quick answer for like how you can present it is it goes both ways. 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:49.839 You quantify stuff so that you can um show that you're performing well, but you also quantify stuff so that the company knows whether you're performing well. 00:31:50.319 --> 00:32:00.480 And so if you can frame it that way, you can say, you know, uh and by the way, I would recommend telling someone beforehand that you are doing this. 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:08.160 It makes more sense like to do that, and then later be like, by the way, you know I quantify stuff about my work, right? 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:09.599 Here's what I have, right? 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:19.200 Instead of at the last like minute, which a lot of people, that's why it's cringy, is if you're like, hey, by the way, I have these like stats that I don't even you don't know about them. 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.440 I don't even know if you care about them or whatever. 00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:32.559 But that's so that's a good way to approach it, is is to be like, look, I would like to find ways to kind of quantify my work so that we are clear on like whether I'm doing well or not. 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:51.279 You know, and that by the way, just that alone shows a ton of courage and confidence, which if you don't have it, it's hard to to do that, but you know, do that work a little bit first, get clear on your strengths, get clear on your story and stuff like that, and then be like,

okay, hey boss, like I'm gonna start quantifying certain things. 00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:53.440 Here's what I think makes sense for my like performance. 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:54.319 What do you think? 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.680 You know, so start beforehand and then later you have that. 00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:58.559 Yeah. 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.640 But yeah, a lot of places these days will have their KPIs, right? 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.440 So it's kind of already baked into it for you. 00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:12.000 But yeah, like, you know, often startups kind of don't as much, and and even corporate places, like they might not. 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:13.759 So yeah. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.279 Yeah, no, that's great. 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:16.319 That's awesome. 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:24.160 That if you can just put it out there, what you're about to say, and like set a little bit of an expectation, then people are expecting it. 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:32.799 Like, you know, then then it doesn't sound like you were self-centered, but yeah, numbers matter, like data matters. 00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.480 So I think everybody understands that in every organization. 00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:37.359 So just say that. 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:42.720 Oh, I'd like to quantify, just like you said, or as you know, I I like to quantify. 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:51.279 So this is what I've done in the last two quarters, and I just wanted to make sure that I present that in our meeting today. 00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.519 And they're gonna be like, wow, great! Like this is awesome, right? 00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:03.279 We didn't even have to ask for it, or we didn't have to go through and look for those results ourselves and the on the back end. 00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:05.200 Like she she she was ready. 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:09.840 Um, and there's nothing like it's not as cringy as we think, actually. 00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:12.239 People want that from you. 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:14.880 So that's that's great. 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:18.239 Okay, this question is from Rachel. 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:26.000 What is your go-to strategy for recovering if a high-stakes answer goes like completely sideways? 00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:32.000 Because she she has been passed over for promotion like three times. 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:37.119 And she's like, every time I sit across, I think I just end up saying something wrong. 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:45.360 She's still in the organization because she believes that they're a good fit, but the annual reviews are not going well. 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:46.480 Hmm. 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.599 Yeah, I I don't think the problem is the moment itself. 00:34:52.480 --> 00:35:02.800 I think if you're really uh in my experience, digging into these kinds of situations, you it's not like you said the wrong thing in that moment. 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:07.599 It's that the framing of your role. 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.880 Yeah, the

framing of your role and like within the organization is not right. 00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:29.840 And you need to look at that a little bit more and do one-on-one conversations with a few different people to build that story, make sure that you're clear on like where do you sit really and why, not just like why am I not getting promoted, but why am I helpful? 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:30.480 You know? 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:39.519 And and that could be one way to ask at the end, like, you know, if it's not, it's like you can like establish why uh why are you still there, right? 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.679 Like, what do they really value in you? 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:50.000 And again, I would just go back if you've been passed over three times, I wouldn't expect anything different than the fourth time. 00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.519 So I would start looking elsewhere, you know. 00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:59.360 I I don't think there, I think also at three times, you're probably feeling like trust has been broken in you. 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.320 And so, like, it's hard to come back from that too. 00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.000 Your work is not gonna be as good for them. 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.280 You're not gonna like really care as much, you're not gonna trust them. 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:12.000 I would just, you know, uh Yeah, start looking outside. 00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:13.440 That's what I said to her. 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:21.599 And I think I I if you don't mind, we can just double-click a little more on this situation because I think it happens to a lot of people. 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:26.639 And I've heard this over and over again, and I want your take on this. 00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:35.920 The biggest obstacle for her is her annual review is with the VP of the organization. 00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:45.440 Her she is directly reporting to a manager, and she's like, you know, her day-to-day or whatever, like quarterly basis review is with the manager. 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.960 I'm like, maybe you need to communicate more often with the VP. 00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:54.159 If if that's what's happening, you know, for your annual review, you're sitting across from a different person. 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.920 And she's like, but I feel like my manager should be advocating for me. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.960 And I'm yeah, I'm like, I don't know about that. 00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:14.800 Maybe you have to find a way, like, you know, why why that communication isn't happening, and and maybe find a way to communicate more often with the VP. 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.440 What do you think about that? 00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:18.559 Mm-hmm. 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:19.599 Yeah, both. 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:26.559 I think, you know, find ways to yeah, directly show your wins to the VP. 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:33.599 And again, find out, yeah, find out why they what stresses them out and how you can contribute to that in a way that they see more.

00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.840 And also have a conversation with the manager. 00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.159 What is your view of me and like in the team? 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:46.000 And what do you think the VP thinks about our team? 00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:59.599 And you know, just kind of getting a whole lay of the land, like something is going on that's that's unclear to this person, and you you have to be willing to like find out what it is if you want to stay. 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:11.280 And everyone, I think this is the actually goes back to like uh every problem as an adult is there's always a layer of I shouldn't have to do this. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:21.119 And if you get really caught in that, then you you don't get what you want because you don't have the the energy to go after it. 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:26.400 Whereas people call it like ownership or something, but it's like it's like, oh, things I shouldn't have to do this. 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:27.519 My manager should be doing this. 00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:29.440 It's like, yeah, yes, they should. 00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.199 Like a great manager does that. 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:37.760 Your manager is not great, so you are now the one who has to do the thing. 00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:38.400 Yeah. 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:44.239 As the scene, coaching, like you have to remove the word should out of your vocabulary, right? 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:54.400 That like that's what the basis of coaching is like completely get rid of the word because it's always gonna come back and haunt you in different ways. 00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:10.639 Because, yes, to the to your point, when we are saying should in any situation or for anything or any person, we're kind of giving control to that person, control to that situation and removing ownership, right? 00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:17.440 So as much ownership as you take in that situation, the better it's gonna be for you and you will understand it better. 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:27.840 Once you understand it better, then you know exactly what you need to do, like the steps you need to take to get to that outcome that you want, right? 00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:36.719 If you're overly reliant on this other person or another team to get that accomplished, guess what? 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:41.599 I mean, you have to know what is going on and take ownership of it. 00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:44.639 So I that's what how I see it. 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:47.039 If you would like to add to it, go for it. 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:47.519 Yeah. 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:56.000 Well, I think your point was really subtle and really important, which is that every thing is about like learning. 00:39:56.159 --> 00:40:03.599 Like every step you take, every application you send out in the job search, you learn a little bit, you you change a little bit. 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:11.599 And every conversation you have at a job that's like around this topic where you're trying to figure out what's going on, how do I move up? 00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:13.039 You get that information. 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:21.840 And the the cool thing about that is that everything you learn is not just applicable to your current situation, but for the future, right? 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:26.400 So you may be in another job later where similar situation. 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:32.960 And if you've gone through this process, you'll be able to prevent what being passed over three times. 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:45.440 And the way I like to say it is every big challenge prepares you for even bigger challenges in the future and makes smaller challenges in the future even smaller. 00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:47.039 Absolutely. 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:48.159 Absolutely. 00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:53.519 Oh, those are such great words to actually kind of wrap it up. 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:54.960 This was great. 00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:04.000 Thanks for sharing all the great tips on how to approach job interviews and workplace negotiations. 00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.639 Any parting words for our listeners? 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:18.159 I guess just to summarize, I would say like when you are afraid of talking about some part of yourself, dig into that. 00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:24.320 You know, find the story, find the story that you are enjoy telling and practice that. 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:30.480 And then you will open up more, talk to more people, and it's always talking to more people that gets better things, right? 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:32.559 Inside a company, outside a company. 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:34.239 And it has to feel authentic. 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.519 And feeling fake is one of the it's just so hard. 00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:38.400 It doesn't help. 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:39.440 It doesn't help you. 00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:40.000 Yeah. 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:48.880 And then doing your work to get other options and stuff so that you, when the big moment comes, you're a little bit more calm because you're not, it's not all or nothing. 00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:50.559 Absolutely. 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:51.519 Absolutely. 00:41:51.840 --> 00:42:13.039 Figure out how you can present yourself as an authentic person, as an authentic human, and then at the same time continue the hustle, continue the work, really double down on the work because the more, the more shots you take, the more chances you have to score a slam dunk. 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:14.159 So that's great. 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:15.440 That's a great takeaway. 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:21.039 Uh, Dave, where can our listeners and viewers find you and learn more about your work? 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:21.679 Yeah. 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:23.519 So I mean, I'm I'm on LinkedIn. 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:27.519 I do have a small but growing YouTube and Instagram. 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:29.119 Uh, they're effortwise. 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.880 It's all effortwise now and effortwise.com. 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:33.760 Yeah. 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:34.960 Amazing. 00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:46.159 So I'm gonna put the link to your website, effortwise.com and your social media and your LinkedIn account, so that everybody can learn more about your work. 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:47.760 Thank you for joining us. 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:57.119 And please send this interview to someone who you know is looking for a job and or their annual review is coming up. 00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:11.039 Just send this interview to someone because I think Dave gave us so many helpful practical tips, which we don't think of ourselves because we're just so in the thick of it. 00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:17.039 We're like just so focused on the application process andor the work. 00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:21.519 If you're within the organization, you're like, oh no, this is the last quarter. 00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:23.679 I have to show certain KPIs. 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:26.159 Like, I'm so down into it. 00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:29.119 I can't think of the steps I need to take for my review. 00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:37.760 Just listening to this 40-minute conversation is gonna change the outcome of that interview for them. 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:40.719 So please, please share it with someone. 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:48.079 Maybe it's you, maybe it's somebody in your on your team, maybe it's your sister, you know, your brothers, siblings, cousins. 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.119 Please share it and send it out to them. 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.320 Dave, once again, thank you so much for joining us. 00:43:54.559 --> 00:44:02.079 And to our viewers and listeners, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon and listening to us in a podcast format. 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:03.440 Bye for now. 00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:04.320 Thank you.