Desalinating seawater, Tukaram Munde vs FSSAI, and selling hospital shifts의 전체 녹취록

are dependent on fishing as a direct means of livelihood, 35 00:02:08.770 --> 00:02:13.770 it also creates indirect employment in the way of transport 36 00:02:13.810 --> 00:02:21.210 of fish, sale of fish, export, storage solutions, cooking fish-based delicacies, etc. 37 00:02:21.689 --> 00:02:26.330 And besides this, Manori and Gorai also have lush farmlands. 38 00:02:26.750 --> 00:02:31.310 So there's a very thriving farming community based in these areas. 39 00:02:32.530 --> 00:02:35.250 Neonica tells us that its first phase is scheduled to 40 00:02:35.270 --> 00:02:39.729 be operational by December 2029, producing 200 million litres of 41 00:02:39.770 --> 00:02:42.909 drinking water every day, enough to meet the daily needs 42 00:02:43.030 --> 00:02:46.060 of up to 15 lakh people. But while the project 43 00:02:46.150 --> 00:02:49.969 promises to improve Mumbai's water security, it has also sparked 44 00:02:50.009 --> 00:02:52.569 opposition from the people who have depended on these coastal 45 00:02:52.610 --> 00:02:56.389 waters for generations. So to understand why is Mumbai turning 46 00:02:56.409 --> 00:02:59.840 to desalination to meet its water needs and what exactly 47 00:02:59.939 --> 00:03:03.680 are the fishing communities worried about, my colleague Echa Sharma. 48 00:03:03.340 --> 00:03:05.080 Speaks with Nayonika in this segment. 49 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.229 Nayonika, before we get into the protests... Could you tell 50 00:03:09.270 --> 00:03:13.129 our listeners a bit about how serious is Mumbai's water shortage? 51 00:03:13.590 --> 00:03:17.800 And why has the BMC decided that turning seawater into 52 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:19.800 drinking water is now necessary? 53 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.439 Yeah, you know, despite being a coastal city where we 54 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:26.639 are surrounded by the sea and seawater in three directions, 55 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.810 Mumbai is entirely dependent on rainwater for our current needs. 56 00:03:31.310 --> 00:03:35.419 portable water demands. Not only portable water, but even for 57 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:40.050 industrial and agricultural water demands, we depend on rainwater. How 58 00:03:40.110 --> 00:03:43.250 it works is that we have seven major reservoirs in 59 00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:47.389 and outside of Mumbai district. And these reservoirs get filled 60 00:03:47.530 --> 00:03:50.680 during the four months of monsoon season. And then through 61 00:03:50.740 --> 00:03:54.500 the dams, the water is transported across the city through 62 00:03:54.539 --> 00:03:59.580 a channel of tunnels and water pipelines throughout the year. 63 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:04.000 So Mumbai is entirely rain-dependent. It is so rain-dependent that 64 00:04:04.219 --> 00:04:07.250 should there be a year with poor rain, the city 65 00:04:07.289 --> 00:04:10.650 could face a severe water crisis. And the chances of 66 00:04:10.710 --> 00:04:14.650 crisis are high because Mumbai already is under a water 67 00:04:14.689 --> 00:04:15.650 supply shortfall. 68 00:04:16.069 --> 00:04:18.209 So currently, Mumbai is able to. 69 00:04:18.170 --> 00:04:23.290 Supply approximately 4,100 MLD of water every day. But the 70 00:04:23.430 --> 00:04:27.129 actual demand of the city stands at 4,650 MLD. So 71 00:04:27.509 --> 00:04:32.290 there's a huge shortfall. And this demand is further projected 72 00:04:32.350 --> 00:04:37.250 to grow beyond 6,000 MLD by 2024. And now with 73 00:04:37.649 --> 00:04:40.680 an El Nino, a strong El Nino system in place, 74 00:04:41.060 --> 00:04:44.600 where drought has spread across the state, the BMC is, 75 00:04:44.759 --> 00:04:47.949 you know, sort of taking up the cudgels to further 76 00:04:47.990 --> 00:04:51.209 diversify the sources of water that we have here. So 77 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:55.209 instead of being entirely dependent on rain, the idea is 78 00:04:55.269 --> 00:04:59.389 to now treat seawater, which is abundantly available in the city, 79 00:04:59.709 --> 00:05:03.709 and convert it into drinking water. And This, according to 80 00:05:03.750 --> 00:05:06.790 the BMC officials, is expected to play a crucial role 81 00:05:06.829 --> 00:05:09.910 in even bridging the gap that we have currently between 82 00:05:09.930 --> 00:05:12.689 the demand and the supply. So, you know, to put 83 00:05:12.730 --> 00:05:15.709 into perspective, in the first phase alone, when the plant 84 00:05:15.769 --> 00:05:18.750 is expected to treat up to 200 ml of water, 85 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.699 it is projected that this project will cater to up 86 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:25.319 to 15 lakh people in the western suburbs of Mumbai. 87 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.870 Right, and we understand that hundreds of fishermen and villagers 88 00:05:29.290 --> 00:05:32.689 are protesting against this project that is supposed to provide 89 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.529 drinking water to Mumbai. So, could you help us in 90 00:05:35.569 --> 00:05:38.389 understanding what exactly is happening in Manori? 91 00:05:39.029 --> 00:05:42.149 See, for now, I mean, Manori has been making the 92 00:05:42.189 --> 00:05:46.790 headlines of late because a land parcel of approximately 29 93 00:05:46.790 --> 00:05:50.730 hectares in this area has been earmarked for the construction 94 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:55.949 of Mumbai's first ever desalination project. And that is the 95 00:05:55.990 --> 00:05:59.589 project which is now drawing concerns and there have been 96 00:05:59.629 --> 00:06:04.610 protests by locals, fishermen and activists alike. This project is 97 00:06:04.750 --> 00:06:08.439 expected to come atop a small hillock, which used to 98 00:06:08.449 --> 00:06:12.100 traditionally serve as a grassland where the cattle grazed and 99 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.560 local fisher folk would dry their fish. And, you know, 100 00:06:15.620 --> 00:06:19.620 local children just spend their time playing. This site also 101 00:06:19.639 -->

00:06:22.259 has a very scenic view of the beach. So it 102 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:25.949 was also a very popular tourist spot. Now, however, that 103 00:06:26.129 --> 00:06:30.610 area has been barricaded by the BMC and the agency 104 00:06:30.649 --> 00:06:34.329 has now started doing ground survey, soil assessment to be 105 00:06:34.490 --> 00:06:37.069 able to finalize. 106 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.240 Their plans for desalination project. 107 00:06:39.459 --> 00:06:42.680 This project work is expected to be carried out over 108 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.649 the next three years. And the deadline is set at 109 00:06:46.750 --> 00:06:47.649 December 2029. 110 00:06:47.649 --> 00:06:48.149 Right. 111 00:06:48.939 --> 00:06:53.560 And Mumbai has been considering desalination for nearly 20 years, right? 112 00:06:53.980 --> 00:06:57.160 So what has changed now that makes the BMC confident 113 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.639 that this project can finally go ahead? 114 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:00.620 Yes. 115 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:03.800 So for 20 years, it didn't work out because there's 116 00:07:03.860 --> 00:07:07.540 always been concerns over the cost and land availability and 117 00:07:07.579 --> 00:07:10.540 even the technology because it's fairly new for India. 118 00:07:10.579 --> 00:07:11.879 We have plants everywhere. 119 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:16.220 Desalination plants in Chennai, which were commissioned in 2010. And 120 00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:19.899 this mechanism is very common globally. But in India, it 121 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:23.959 still remains a very new and up and coming project. 122 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:30.180 And even so, in 2007, actually, so nearly two decades ago, 123 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.879 the state government had appointed a committee which suggested that 124 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:42.149 Mumbai should have desalination plants. And gradually in 2009, Mumbai. 125 00:07:40.470 --> 00:07:43.029 Was facing an acute water crisis. 126 00:07:43.129 --> 00:07:46.490 So the BMC then, you know, took up the cudgels 127 00:07:46.569 --> 00:07:50.560 to sort of do some feasibility studies for the construction 128 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:55.040 of this plant. However, again, the concerns over high cost 129 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.379 and land acquisition came to fore and then the BMC 130 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:00.220 decided to cancel this proposal. 131 00:08:00.649 --> 00:08:01.850 Three years after 2016. 132 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:08.819 And 2019, the erstwhile environment minister, Aditya Thackeray of SENA UBT, 133 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.180 he showed interest in the project. 134 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.160 And then the plan was again revived. 135 00:08:14.620 --> 00:08:18.319 Then after that, in 2021, you know, the BMC sort 136 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:24.750 of signed MOUs. It had interactions with international companies, water 137 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:29.060 technology companies based in Israel. to sort of further build 138 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:33.440 on this idea of a desalination plant for Mumbai. You know, 139 00:08:33.620 --> 00:08:37.460 in 2023, after much deliberations, then the BMC finally floated 140 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:42.879 a tender. It was a 3,500 crore tender, which sought 141 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:47.129 to invite bidders to sort of, you know, build, develop 142 00:08:47.289 --> 00:08:52.059 and maintain a desalination plant in Banori. However, that proposal 143 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.360 kept drawing very feeble responses and then gradually it was cancelled. 144 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:02.929 And I think the final mark came in 2025 when 145 00:09:02.970 --> 00:09:08.470 the BMC again floated a fresh global tender. And gradually 146 00:09:08.590 --> 00:09:13.379 by December of last year, in 2025, a contract was 147 00:09:13.429 --> 00:09:15.259 awarded to a joint. 148 00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:17.620 Venture between an Indian and an Israeli company. 149 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.019 Now, for those who may not know already, this desalination 150 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:25.769 plant will use reverse osmosis, essentially the same basic technology 151 00:09:25.889 --> 00:09:29.250 found in many of our household water purifiers, but of course, 152 00:09:29.409 --> 00:09:33.490 on a vastly larger scale. So basically, seawater will be 153 00:09:33.570 --> 00:09:37.220 drawn through an underwater intake system. It will then be 154 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:41.120 screened and filtered and forced through a barrier under high 155 00:09:41.220 --> 00:09:44.980 pressure to remove salt. The treated water will then be 156 00:09:45.100 --> 00:09:50.759 remineralized and disinfected before distribution to homes and businesses. The 157 00:09:50.779 --> 00:09:55.750 process will also generate concentrated saline wastewater that will be 158 00:09:55.809 --> 00:09:58.909 returned to the sea from the outtake pipes, and this 159 00:09:58.950 --> 00:10:03.299 has raised concerns among the villagers. So, Nayonika, just how 160 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:06.440 worried are fishermen? And what does this mean for the 161 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:07.279 marine ecosystem? 162 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:10.929 Yeah, so for fishermen, you know, they account for the 163 00:10:10.990 --> 00:10:15.330 largest chunk of the population in this belt. So desalination 164 00:10:15.409 --> 00:10:19.190 plant and how it works has naturally created a concern. 165 00:10:19.590 --> 00:10:24.149 The biggest concerns surround around the impact on the marine ecosystem, 166 00:10:24.590 --> 00:10:28.610 the fish breeding and eventually the catch of fish. You know, 167 00:10:28.649 --> 00:10:31.970 not only in Manori, but these concerns echo even in 168 00:10:32.009 --> 00:10:35.309 the nearby villages of that area. So speaking about the 169 00:10:35.450 --> 00:10:39.129 intake outlet, the concerns have largely been around the fact that, 170 00:10:39.149 --> 00:10:43.000 you know, This

water, this intake outlet, it will be 171 00:10:43.019 --> 00:10:45.440 like a tunnel. So it's going to draw water from 172 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:49.299 the sea. And many of the generational fisher folk are 173 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:53.090 concerned about the smaller baby fish, the eggs and the 174 00:10:53.139 --> 00:10:55.870 fish breed. They're worried that it's going to get sucked 175 00:10:55.929 --> 00:10:59.330 into the pipe due to the suction pull of the tunnel. 176 00:10:59.669 --> 00:11:03.990 When it comes to another concern, it largely centers around 177 00:11:04.009 --> 00:11:09.179 the fact that Many fish, even eels for that matter, 178 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.690 more expensive catch like lobsters, they all come to the 179 00:11:13.809 --> 00:11:17.629 coast or the rocky side for breeding. The fisher folk 180 00:11:17.649 --> 00:11:21.230 have highlighted that they prefer to breed in a quiet area, 181 00:11:21.269 --> 00:11:24.080 but they are worried that with the development of the plant, 182 00:11:24.740 --> 00:11:29.379 the entire quietitude, the tranquil of the area will be disturbed. Also, 183 00:11:29.419 --> 00:11:32.259 they are worried that the facility will increase. 184 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.110 The movement and the churn in the water. So, they 185 00:11:34.230 --> 00:11:37.230 are concerned about these factors. When it comes to the 186 00:11:37.529 --> 00:11:41.730 outlet part of it, the outfall area of the tunnel, 187 00:11:42.049 --> 00:11:46.220 they are concerned that the brine, which is concentrated seawater, 188 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.840 it's going to eventually be discharged into the sea and 189 00:11:49.980 --> 00:11:54.639 increase the salinity of the water. So they are concerned that, 190 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:57.399 you know, while this may not have an immediate impact 191 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:00.320 on the population of the fish, they are worried that 192 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:03.340 gradually fewer fish will come here to breed. And this 193 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:06.750 is going to have a direct impact on the you know, 194 00:12:06.789 --> 00:12:08.470 the livelihoods of people here. 195 00:12:08.570 --> 00:12:11.269 Having said that, when we went there, when we. 196 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:14.529 Spoke to the locals, the biggest cause of anger was 197 00:12:14.549 --> 00:12:18.169 the fact that their concerns are currently not being addressed. 198 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:20.980 This has further fuelled worries along the coast. 199 00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:24.960 Right, and Nayonika, as you mentioned earlier, fishing here is 200 00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:29.179 not just an occupation, but an entire local economy. So 201 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:32.590 how many families depend on the sea? And what makes 202 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:34.789 this fishing economy vulnerable? 203 00:12:35.529 --> 00:12:40.009 Right, so according to the local estimates, the villages of Manori, 204 00:12:40.149 --> 00:12:43.929 Uttan and Gorai are home to over 20,000 fishing families, 205 00:12:44.409 --> 00:12:48.419 which directly depend on fishing. If they do not fish, 206 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.279 then like I said earlier, they are engaged in some 207 00:12:52.340 --> 00:12:53.519 kind of allied work. 208 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.299 Since they are directly dependent on fishing. 209 00:12:56.019 --> 00:12:59.840 As a livelihood, any change in the population of fish, 210 00:13:00.220 --> 00:13:03.639 the change in fish breeding patterns is going to impact 211 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:06.590 their catch significantly. which is going to directly impact the 212 00:13:06.629 --> 00:13:09.679 source of income. So for them, it's not just a 213 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:14.100 matter of, you know, raising protests. They've been constantly saying 214 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:19.000 that it is for them a cause of their entire livelihood. 215 00:13:19.539 --> 00:13:22.120 And one of the most interesting insights for me was 216 00:13:22.500 --> 00:13:26.450 how the villagers actually brought fishermen from Chennai to understand 217 00:13:26.529 --> 00:13:29.850 what happened around the desalination plant there. So could you 218 00:13:29.870 --> 00:13:30.629 tell us a bit about that? 219 00:13:31.350 --> 00:13:31.629 Right. 220 00:13:31.710 --> 00:13:34.350 So when the locals in the area first found out 221 00:13:34.409 --> 00:13:36.970 that there's going to be a desalination plant, there was 222 00:13:36.990 --> 00:13:41.029 a lot of unawareness about the project. Because like we 223 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:44.080 had discussed earlier, it's still a very new concept. 224 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:45.659 So they started doing their. 225 00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:50.519 Own research and they also spoke to the local corporator 226 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.990 in the area. Interestingly, the local corporator told them that, 227 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.789 you know, there's already a plant in Chennai and people 228 00:13:56.850 --> 00:13:59.960 there are facing no problems. This is how they found 229 00:14:00.059 --> 00:14:03.259 out that there is some kind of facility, some kind 230 00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:07.750 of similar facility which is operational in Chennai. And the 231 00:14:07.809 --> 00:14:11.629 fisher folk here on the west coast in Manori somehow 232 00:14:11.690 --> 00:14:12.289 managed to. 233 00:14:12.210 --> 00:14:13.929 Get in touch with the fisher folk there. 234 00:14:13.990 --> 00:14:17.269 They also got in touch with the activists in Chennai 235 00:14:17.330 --> 00:14:20.200 where a desalination plant is already operational. 236 00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:23.460 So they had this exchange of dialogue and then. 237 00:14:24.379 --> 00:14:27.580 Eventually, there was so much worry amongst the locals in 238 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.220 this area that they pooled in money and they flew 239 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.909 in two people from Chennai, the fisher folk

and an 240 00:14:33.990 --> 00:14:37.090 activist from Chennai who came to Bombay, who came to 241 00:14:37.110 --> 00:14:41.080 the village here in Manori and had a dialogue with them. 242 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.860 And when they spoke to them, they realized how badly 243 00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:48.940 the livelihoods of the fisher folk in Chennai had been impacted. 244 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:53.590 They realized that they were facing problems owing to soil erosion. 245 00:14:53.870 --> 00:14:56.549 The catch of the fish was going down. There were 246 00:14:56.590 --> 00:14:57.690 multiple concerns. 247 00:14:57.830 --> 00:15:02.080 And during this dialogue, the fishermen in Chennai also explained 248 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:04.799 to them, I mean, explain to the locals in Manori 249 00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:08.200 as to how to sort of map the coordinates, how 250 00:15:08.259 --> 00:15:12.779 to understand what's happening when, how to apply for applications for, 251 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:14.700 you know, information from the government. 252 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:17.399 And this exchange of dialogue led. 253 00:15:17.259 --> 00:15:20.460 To awareness amongst the locals in Manori, Gorai and the 254 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:21.200 Uttan belt. 255 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:21.940 Right. 256 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.259 And it's not just fishermen who are worried. You highlight 257 00:15:25.370 --> 00:15:28.669 how farmers in the surrounding villages are also opposing the project. 258 00:15:29.149 --> 00:15:30.809 So what exactly are their concerns? 259 00:15:31.610 --> 00:15:31.950 Right. 260 00:15:32.070 --> 00:15:36.659 So being a coastal area, Manori and its nearby regions, 261 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:42.419 they predominantly have coconut, paddy and mango yield. But when 262 00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:45.340 we went there, farmers also told us that they grow 263 00:15:45.379 --> 00:15:50.590 vegetables like chillies and brinjals, tomatoes, pumpkins, you name it. 264 00:15:50.669 --> 00:15:53.710 They have vast fields, you know. So according to the 265 00:15:53.750 --> 00:15:57.490 farmer community, the increase in the salinity of water and 266 00:15:57.570 --> 00:16:01.490 eventually increase in salinity in the air also will impact 267 00:16:01.509 --> 00:16:05.909 the growth of their native crops. So that primary concern 268 00:16:05.929 --> 00:16:09.769 has led the Farmers Association to even write to the 269 00:16:09.809 --> 00:16:13.649 authorities in opposition to the project. They've also joined the 270 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:15.409 fishermen now in the protests. 271 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.240 And Ayonika, how has the BMC responded? Because you mentioned 272 00:16:19.299 --> 00:16:22.279 earlier that the fishermen's concerns haven't been heard. 273 00:16:23.139 --> 00:16:27.059 So the BMC had initially had a dialogue with the 274 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:31.700 local community. And according to the locals, that was more 275 00:16:31.779 --> 00:16:35.389 about a sort of presentation from the BMC's end. 276 00:16:35.649 --> 00:16:38.570 According to the locals, the concerns of the villagers were 277 00:16:38.610 --> 00:16:39.169 not heard. 278 00:16:39.470 --> 00:16:42.570 Having said that, the BMC for its part, you know, 279 00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:45.669 it maintains that the project is not going to have 280 00:16:45.789 --> 00:16:49.750 any impact on the marine life. the concerns over brine, 281 00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:54.320 you know, the discharge from the plant, which has become 282 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:55.539 a source of controversy. 283 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.830 The BMC says that it will have no impact on 284 00:16:57.870 --> 00:16:58.389 marine life. 285 00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:03.960 According to civic records, the brine discharge is mainly concentrated 286 00:17:04.059 --> 00:17:08.160 seawater with high salinity. It does not include any toxic 287 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.529 chemicals or heavy metals. So the BMC said that, you know, 288 00:17:12.569 --> 00:17:15.089 it's not going to cause any shock to the marine life. 289 00:17:15.410 --> 00:17:16.710 And they've also maintained. 290 00:17:16.329 --> 00:17:20.049 That they're going to use multiple diffusers, ambient salinity and 291 00:17:20.109 --> 00:17:24.849 also maintain strict chemical standards as per the MPCB norms 292 00:17:24.930 --> 00:17:29.519 to ensure that there's no harmful impact. Besides that, you know, 293 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:34.390 they've also said that specific features have been incorporated in 294 00:17:34.430 --> 00:17:37.849 the plant which are not existent at the time when 295 00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:39.829 the Chennai plant was built in 2010. 296 00:17:39.829 --> 00:17:42.650 So, they believe that the concerns. 297 00:17:42.069 --> 00:17:46.059 Which have been flagged by citing the problems in Chennai 298 00:17:46.230 --> 00:17:49.940 will not be faced in Mumbai because the technology is 299 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:51.140 much more advanced. 300 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:54.339 So, for instance, you know, this could get a little scientific. 301 00:17:54.970 --> 00:17:59.160 But the official said that there are intake heads which 302 00:17:59.259 --> 00:18:01.940 are situated below the low tide levels. 303 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:04.240 They're also very much deep into the sea. 304 00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:08.329 And They've also designed it in a way that allows 305 00:18:08.589 --> 00:18:12.890 velocity at a very reduced rate to prevent any organism 306 00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:17.130 from getting trapped in the intake screen, you know. Additionally, 307 00:18:17.150 --> 00:18:21.750 they've also said that unlike older desalination plants, which used 308 00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:25.569 to use the thermal technology, this particular plant is going 309 00:18:25.609 --> 00:18:28.630 to use reverse osmosis in which there is no heating 310 00:18:28.710 --> 00:18:32.890 of water. And even the brine will

be within 1 311 00:18:32.890 --> 00:18:37.289 degree Celsius of the ambient seawater. So the BMC for 312 00:18:37.329 --> 00:18:39.980 its part maintains that, you know, there's no big cause 313 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.640 for concern. There's no cause for concern when it comes 314 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:43.960 to the livelihoods of people. 315 00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:47.720 And I think we know that Mumbai is already considering 316 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:52.430 another desalination plant at Versova. So, does this resistance in 317 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:55.829 Manori kind of speak about the larger problem that persists 318 00:18:55.990 --> 00:19:00.490 with how the city plans its coastal infrastructure, particularly when 319 00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:04.170 the people who depend on the coastline may not be 320 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:05.880 the primary beneficiaries as such? 321 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:07.539 Yes, of course. 322 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.930 In fact, the locals that we met now have already 323 00:19:10.990 --> 00:19:15.710 been speaking in contempt of the plant planned in Varsova. 324 00:19:16.190 --> 00:19:19.019 And the coastal, the fisher folk community in Mumbai have 325 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.660 always been very vocal about their concerns and their voice 326 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:26.269 holds a lot of import in the state. So the 327 00:19:26.329 --> 00:19:30.390 concerns are naturally going to come when it comes to 328 00:19:30.430 --> 00:19:34.779 the upcoming plant. The similar concerns will be flagged by locals, 329 00:19:34.859 --> 00:19:38.160 not only in the fishing communities of Versova, but also 330 00:19:38.220 --> 00:19:42.500 in other fishing beds. For now, however, it remains to 331 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:46.509 be seen how this project is going to unfold. Because 332 00:19:46.950 --> 00:19:49.970 for now, the locals have raised demands of a dietitian. 333 00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:53.619 while the BNC has said that they are open to discussion. 334 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.029 So it still remains to be seen how this project 335 00:19:57.049 --> 00:19:59.950 will unfold and how it will set a kind of 336 00:20:00.009 --> 00:20:02.789 standard for the next upcoming plant of BNC. 337 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:10.700 And next, we talk about a petition by the Maharashtra 338 00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:15.559 government against the National Food Regulator, FSSAI. Earlier this month, 339 00:20:15.619 --> 00:20:19.769 Maharashtra's Food Safety Commissioner Tukaram Munde, who has recently been 340 00:20:19.789 --> 00:20:22.869 in the spotlight for his strict action against food businesses 341 00:20:23.250 --> 00:20:26.910 violating safety norms, approached the Bombay High Court against the 342 00:20:26.990 --> 00:20:30.430 National Food Regulator, the Food Safety and Standards Authority of. 343 00:20:30.450 --> 00:20:31.750 India or FSSAI. 344 00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:35.069 In his petition, he alleged that the National Regulator

had 345 00:20:35.150 --> 00:20:39.519 created a parallel regulatory mechanism and encroached on the state's powers. 346 00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:42.599 And he also argued that the Centre had restricted the 347 00:20:42.630 --> 00:20:45.980 powers of the Commissioner and his officers. Now, the petition 348 00:20:46.019 --> 00:20:49.779 has brought into focus how food safety is regulated in India, 349 00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:53.220 how responsibilities are divided between the Centre and the states, 350 00:20:53.619 --> 00:20:56.980 and the limitations of the current system. So, to understand 351 00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.640 the concerns raised in the petition and what they mean 352 00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:02.400 for food safety regulation in India, we speak with the 353 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.200 Indian Express's Anona Dutt. Anona, can you first tell us 354 00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:09.460 what exactly Tokaram Munde is saying through this petition? 355 00:21:10.230 --> 00:21:13.450 So what he's saying is that the central agency, through 356 00:21:13.490 --> 00:21:17.809 its various guidelines over the years, has actually encroached on 357 00:21:17.849 --> 00:21:21.869 the powers of the state food safety officers. And it 358 00:21:21.890 --> 00:21:28.819 has created sort of a parallel regulatory mechanism for certain companies, especially, 359 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:33.440 you know, the big companies that are dealing with high-risk 360 00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:37.079 foods like, you know, perishable items such as meats, milk, 361 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:39.519 which was anyway allowed in the Act, but it has 362 00:21:39.579 --> 00:21:43.690 also encroached upon other activities with bigger companies, which is 363 00:21:43.710 --> 00:21:48.349 the contention, because the state commissioners cannot inspect on their 364 00:21:48.430 --> 00:21:52.170 own these facilities, which are granted a central license. 365 00:21:53.029 --> 00:21:55.720 And coming to the food regulation, tell us what is 366 00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:59.140 the division of responsibilities between the centre and the state? 367 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:01.599 What all does the centre have under its control? 368 00:22:02.690 --> 00:22:03.990 So the Food. 369 00:22:03.769 --> 00:22:07.609 Safety Act actually says that the centre can grant licences, 370 00:22:07.650 --> 00:22:11.329 like I mentioned, to companies which have a very high turnover, 371 00:22:11.509 --> 00:22:15.109 especially when they are working in high-risk food sectors and 372 00:22:15.130 --> 00:22:15.990 perishable items. 373 00:22:16.309 --> 00:22:17.490 But it also. 374 00:22:17.259 --> 00:22:23.440 Encompasses companies which operate across state borders. So there is 375 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:28.480 no problem of these companies having to seek multiple licenses 376 00:22:28.539 --> 00:22:33.519 from different states. However, the Act does not stipulate any, 377 00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:36.859 you know, creating any cadre of officers known as the 378 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:41.940 Central Food Safety Officers. But the Centre has created such 379 00:22:41.980 --> 00:22:46.119 a cadre and the Central Authority and has been using 380 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:50.119 these officers to inspect the, you know, premises which are 381 00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:54.720 licensed under the Central License. And in these premises, the 382 00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:57.859 food safety officers from the state are not allowed to 383 00:22:58.289 --> 00:23:04.210 conduct individual inspections, except for in some extenuating circumstances, like 384 00:23:04.250 --> 00:23:07.029 if there is an emergency or there has been like 385 00:23:07.069 --> 00:23:10.259 a report of some outbreak and the action has to 386 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:14.799 be taken immediately. Barring those cases, the state regulators cannot 387 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:18.809 inspect the premises without the central team. So this was 388 00:23:19.049 --> 00:23:21.950 actually one of the major points of contention because it 389 00:23:22.410 --> 00:23:25.539 takes away the power from the food safety officers who 390 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:28.579 are actually the designated officers as per the Act. to 391 00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:32.579 carry out the inspections, seize, you know, samples, conduct the 392 00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:37.430 tests and then launch whatever prosecution, whether civil or criminal. 393 00:23:37.869 --> 00:23:40.930 That was all what the state authorities had to do. 394 00:23:40.990 --> 00:23:43.720 But now some of it is also done by the centre. 395 00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:46.559 And now coming to the state, what all does it 396 00:23:46.579 --> 00:23:47.420 have under its ambit? 397 00:23:48.230 --> 00:23:52.269 So the state can regulate all other food business operators. 398 00:23:52.289 --> 00:23:53.869 So whether it's packaged food or. 399 00:23:53.849 --> 00:23:59.170 Even restaurants or certain hawkers, all of that comes under 400 00:23:59.230 --> 00:24:02.859 state regulation. So they have to get a state license 401 00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:06.940 and the state food officers can conduct these inspections. But 402 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.480 in any case where the company has a turnover of 403 00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:13.799 over 50 crores and has a central license, they can 404 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:17.920 now only be inspected by the central authority, like I mentioned. 405 00:24:18.609 --> 00:24:21.549 So now keeping this in mind, what has Maharashtra government's 406 00:24:21.609 --> 00:24:22.430 petition questioned? 407 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:26.079 So like I mentioned, one of the key things is having, 408 00:24:26.130 --> 00:24:30.119 you know, the central food safety officers, which the act 409 00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:34.319 technically does not mention because it says the commissioner can 410 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:38.920 appoint a food safety officer, but only the heads of 411 00:24:38.960 -->

00:24:43.180 the state food regulatory authorities can are known as commissioners, 412 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:47.400 whereas the head of the central regulatory body FSSAI is 413 00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:51.500 a CEO. So the petition challenges that why is CEO 414 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.849 appointing these so-called central food safety officers. Secondly, of course, 415 00:24:56.250 --> 00:24:59.589 like I mentioned, they have taken away through its order 416 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:04.950 in May 2023, they have taken away certain powers from 417 00:25:04.990 --> 00:25:07.819 the state food safety regulators in that they are They 418 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:13.059 cannot conduct inspections in these centrally licensed places on their own. 419 00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:16.619 And third, of course, another important point that has been 420 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:20.440 raised is that the center has also started this online 421 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:22.849 portal for the compliance system. 422 00:25:23.309 --> 00:25:28.150 It does various things, including the licensing part. And that Mr. 423 00:25:28.250 --> 00:25:30.369 Munday has alleged that that is. 424 00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:34.349 Also taking away more and more food businesses from these 425 00:25:34.390 --> 00:25:35.230 state inspections. 426 00:25:35.819 --> 00:25:38.180 And we also understand that the petition says that the 427 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.809 centre has brought more food businesses under its own authority, right? 428 00:25:42.390 --> 00:25:43.559 So tell us how is that? 429 00:25:44.269 --> 00:25:44.509 Yes. 430 00:25:44.849 --> 00:25:47.890 So there are two things here. One is the allegation 431 00:25:47.930 --> 00:25:50.289 by not just Maharashtra. 432 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:52.970 FDA, but some of the food safety officers from the 433 00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:57.529 states that I spoke to is that increasingly more food 434 00:25:57.569 --> 00:26:01.250 businesses are being brought under the central license. For example, 435 00:26:01.690 --> 00:26:06.670 all e-commerce platforms, the five-star hotels are certain categories which 436 00:26:06.690 --> 00:26:09.529 have been brought under central license. And the second thing 437 00:26:09.710 --> 00:26:14.210 is the authority to conduct food inspections in these places. 438 00:26:14.690 --> 00:26:19.539 So with the 2023 order, these centrally licensed places cannot 439 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.759 be inspected by the state food safety regulator. So earlier, 440 00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:28.059 even though certain businesses, especially the products that were being imported, 441 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:32.640 came under the central authority, the state regulators could still 442 00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:36.000 conduct inspections in these spaces. So this is what the 443 00:26:36.019 --> 00:26:39.400 Maharashtra government has alleged that the centre is taking away 444 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:41.079 some of its role. 445 00:26:41.700 -->

00:26:45.480 And with these changes, what challenges has the state been facing? 446 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:46.890 So there are. 447 00:26:46.829 --> 00:26:50.329 Certain challenges that the states have started facing because of 448 00:26:50.390 --> 00:26:55.309 this new division of roles. One of which is, you know, 449 00:26:55.569 --> 00:26:59.690 cases slipping through the cracks. So first, the authority has 450 00:26:59.849 --> 00:27:03.650 made a demarcation that certain businesses would be inspected by it, 451 00:27:03.950 --> 00:27:07.769 while the others with the state licenses would be inspected 452 00:27:07.829 --> 00:27:11.450 by the state regulators. However, there have been instances pointed 453 00:27:11.509 --> 00:27:15.430 out by various food safety officers where the center has 454 00:27:15.589 --> 00:27:20.210 also conducted inspections in places which technically then should have 455 00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:22.579 been inspected by the state authorities. 456 00:27:22.900 --> 00:27:25.180 Which creates its own unique challenges. 457 00:27:25.299 --> 00:27:30.880 So, for example, one food safety officer from Delhi told 458 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:35.140 us that in certain cases where inspection is carried out 459 00:27:35.180 --> 00:27:38.829 by the central authority, when the state authority goes to court, 460 00:27:39.069 --> 00:27:42.730 the officer is asked to identify the person from whom 461 00:27:43.109 --> 00:27:46.750 The sample was collected and since the state food safety 462 00:27:46.789 --> 00:27:49.670 officer was not present at the time of inspection, they 463 00:27:49.690 --> 00:27:53.390 cannot do that. They cannot identify the proprietor or the 464 00:27:53.509 --> 00:27:57.819 person whose permission was taken while collecting the samples. 465 00:27:58.099 --> 00:28:01.779 So that again results in the cases failing in court. 466 00:28:06.569 --> 00:28:08.410 And in the end, we talk about a trend that 467 00:28:08.450 --> 00:28:12.869 has emerged in West Bengal, where interns in medical colleges negotiate, 468 00:28:13.029 --> 00:28:17.329 buy and sell hospital shifts on WhatsApp. The Indian Express's 469 00:28:17.369 --> 00:28:20.990 Sweety Kumari reported that in government medical colleges in Bengal, 470 00:28:21.430 --> 00:28:25.369 shift switches that started as informal peer arrangements among medical 471 00:28:25.390 --> 00:28:29.390 interns have turned into a cash-for-duty network, that operates across 472 00:28:29.490 --> 00:28:32.349 medical colleges in Kolkata and other parts of the state, 473 00:28:32.710 --> 00:28:36.660 allowing interns to trade mandatory rotatory shifts for amounts ranging 474 00:28:36.700 --> 00:28:40.299 from Rs 200 to Rs 600 per hour. One such group, 475 00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:45.000 named Internship Replacement, contains more than 255 members who regularly 476 00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:49.049 broadcast shift availability and the money expected in return. Now 477 00:28:49.089 --> 00:28:51.410 to keep a check on the interns, the State Health 478 00:28:51.450 --> 00:28:55.160 Department has rolled out a biometric attendance system. Health Minister 479 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:58.900 Sharadwath Makhopadhyay, who says he came across a dental college 480 00:28:58.980 --> 00:29:02.480 intern performing duties on behalf of an MBBS intern during 481 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.630 a surprise inspection at Murshidabad Medical College, held a meeting 482 00:29:06.670 --> 00:29:10.470 this month with principals and vice-principals of medical colleges where 483 00:29:10.490 --> 00:29:13.880 the issue was discussed. Sources said that principals of three 484 00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:17.400 medical colleges across the state had no idea about this 485 00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:21.200 network under their roofs. Mukhopadhyay told Sweety that the practice 486 00:29:21.220 --> 00:29:24.900 has been found to be widespread across almost all government hospitals. 487 00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:28.390 Officials said that on an average, a medical college and 488 00:29:28.450 --> 00:29:31.990 hospital in Bengal has around 250 interns who must put 489 00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:35.329 in minimum hours for an MBBS degree, performing duties such 490 00:29:35.390 --> 00:29:38.450 as taking down case histories of patients for a monthly 491 00:29:38.490 --> 00:29:39.200 stipend of Rs 40-50. 492 00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:41.079 Rs 50,000. 493 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:43.740 Only on health grounds or an emergency is an intern 494 00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:47.539 allowed exemption from duty with the requirement that missed hours 495 00:29:47.579 --> 00:29:50.259 be completed later. One of the officers added that there 496 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:54.049 is no attendance system as such in place. Mukhopadhyay said 497 00:29:54.109 --> 00:29:57.329 that the government intends to eradicate all malpractices from the 498 00:29:57.369 --> 00:30:00.490 system that started during the tenure of the previous government. 499 00:30:01.049 --> 00:30:03.990 On the other hand, medical interns have also shared concerns. 500 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:07.579 that not everyone should face the consequences of something a 501 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:10.700 few have been indulging in, and that the government also 502 00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:13.839 needs to address the unbearable work pressure and the appalling 503 00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:17.480 basic conditions the interns have to face daily, from unsanitary 504 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:19.700 washrooms to a lack of proper rest areas. 505 00:30:20.140 --> 00:30:21.380 However, an intern. 506 00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:23.799 Also told Sweety that the swapping of duties is an 507 00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:26.289 open secret given the number of hours that they have 508 00:30:26.329 --> 00:30:26.619 to work. 509 00:30:29.829 --> 00:30:32.490 You were listening to Three Things by the Indian Express. 510 00:30:32.769 --> 00:30:36.789 Today's episode was edited and mixed by Suresh Pawar and 511 00:30:36.849 --> 00:30:39.029 produced by Ichha Sharma and me. 512 00:30:39.049 --> 00:30:39.970 Niharika Nanda. 513 00:30:40.190 --> 00:30:42.170 If you like the show, then do subscribe to us 514 00:30:42.410 --> 00:30:45.170 wherever you get your podcasts. 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