Chris Smith | Always Hiring, Never Staffed: The People Problem Holding Integrators Back의 전체 녹취록

are facing. 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:11.120 So Chris brings Chris brings a wealth of experience and knowledge to this topic. 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:12.159 And I can't wait to dive in. 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:13.680 Chris, thanks so much for being here. 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:15.840 Jason, thanks for having me. 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:17.039 Absolutely. 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:20.719 So uh as a reminder to everybody, we love for these to be two-way dialogues. 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:27.439 So if you have any questions, comments, feedback throughout the course of today's webinar, please do not hesitate to drop those into the chat. 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:44.800 A quick preview of coming attractions here, some of the high-level topics that we're going to get into, why reactive hiring keeps producing the same mistakes, how to get ahead of the game, how to spot the pattern behind a bad hire before you make the next one, where retention quietly breaks down, and what actually keeps good people on your team. 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:49.680 A lot of hiring challenges are uh ultimately retention challenges at their core. 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:52.560 If you can keep the right people, then hiring becomes less of a need. 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:53.759 So we'll get into some of that. 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.319 And then how structure, including frameworks like EOS, change the way teams grow and develop. 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:01.120 So again, really looking forward to jumping into these topics. 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:05.680 If you have anything to add to the conversation, once again, please do drop that into the chat. 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:10.080 As we go, we will do our best to uh respond to all of those comments. 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:17.840 Chris, as we kick things off here, um I wanted to start the conversation about the importance of uh calibration. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:32.080 So you and I had a pre-planning discussion, and you talked about really one of the number one things that you want to make sure people on this call come away with is the importance of really reconciling what it is that they need with what the market that they're in actually supports. 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:33.919 Can you unpack that for us? 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:34.960 Sure. 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.879 I think um everybody starts to hire because they're in a pin point. 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:44.240 Hey, we have more work than we have humans to do it or hours to do it, and now we need some people to help us. 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:46.400 And so they're responding to that pain. 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:55.680 And what comes out of that is it'd be really great if, and then they list out this laundry list of things and then they just imagine that that somehow exists out in the marketplace. 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:02.080 And I think that that question is really where the thing starts to, you know, off by an inch, off by a mile kind of idea. 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:12.400 And calibrating what's out there in the marketplace to what your needs are is really crucial, not your wish list, not the dream, not the unicorn. 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:15.120 But what do I need to get the job done kind of fundamentally? 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:19.439 And then what am I going to have to teach that might not exist natively out there in the marketplace? 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:26.879 And I think if you can start there, and this is true whether we're talking about technicians or salespeople, it doesn't really matter, project managers for that matter. 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:34.720 If you're not successful in finding the folks that you envision in your head, it might be because those folks actually just aren't out there. 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:35.040 Yeah. 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:48.720 And I think that that practical kind of conversation is just if we start off with realistic expectations and then we go out there, we can get those people to being productive in our in our businesses that much faster, as opposed to spinning the wheels. 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:49.519 Yeah. 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:58.800 In product development, we have a framework uh we did not invent, we um, you know, stole this idea from others called the uh the Moscow method. 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:05.040 And if you envision that word, there's uh M and S and C and W. 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:09.519 So it's must-have, should have, could have, and won't have. 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:20.240 And when we're planning a big feature, you know, we talk about there's this laundry list of features that we want to include in this in this release, but then we categorize them and we say, okay, is this a must-have? 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.759 Is this a should have, like ideally, but it's not a deal breaker? 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:30.959 Is this a could, which is like, okay, maybe it's not super important, and then won't is like, okay, we're just not gonna include this. 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:50.800 All right, would you recommend maybe like it doesn't have to necessarily be something that formal, but like maybe there's a parallel here when you're hiring of like looking at your list of these are the things that ideally we would want to have, and maybe stack ranking those or prioritizing them and saying these are the ones that are like deal breakers if they're not there, but everything else is kind of a wish list. 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:55.680 Is that that type of framework something that you would might recommend people go through? 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:56.240 Yes. 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:59.600 And then I would say, what are the exceptions to your wish list? 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:02.480 So I'll I'll give you a few different ways you could think about that. 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:10.879 So one example might be everything on this job is computer based, which would lend itself to be a fully remote role. 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:16.079 But I'm gonna put 5% of that role that forces it to be an in-person

function. 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:21.360 And now instead of being able to hire for a remote role, I have to have it directly local to me. 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:38.959 And I think that those types of questions about the categorizations that you made, Jason, about how you might prioritize that list, I would sit down and say if it opens up a different level of talent, I'm gonna figure out how to excise off that 5% and open up an infinitely larger talent pool for me. 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:43.439 The next question might be things that you would train for versus things that they must have. 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.920 So, an example of that, if we look at control systems as an example, it's a great one. 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.759 Maybe you're a control four shop, but they come with savant skill. 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:52.319 Great. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.560 I'm teaching them the C4 thing that they don't know. 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.399 I'm not holding out just for that one thing. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:01.920 And so I think that that kind of question starts to become what are those kind of components? 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:11.920 And if you can zoom out from it just a little bit, what would you change about your wish list that opens up a new opportunity for the right humans to join the team? 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:13.519 That to me is key. 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:21.279 I I could see like there could be one or two bullet points on your list that if you just remove those, your Canada pool goes up dramatically, right? 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:25.279 So finding where those step functions are uh in terms of your wish list makes sense. 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:37.040 You alluded to training there, and I know from conversations with you that you really emphasize the outsized impact that a good training program can have on your recruiting and hiring efforts. 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:46.160 Can you talk about that idea and how do you encourage integrators to think about training as it relates to the upstream questions of recruiting and hiring? 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:58.800 Yeah, I think if you're open-minded to folks and can imagine a pyramid, if you will, and the higher up the pyramid, the less training somebody might need, and the lower down the pyramid, maybe the more training they might need respected to something. 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:00.879 The pyramid gets wider at the base. 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:02.079 There's more people to talk to. 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:08.240 And so I think that that question about training is are you open-minded to opening up a broader group of people to talk to? 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:11.199 Then I think about training in the actuality. 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:18.079 So um onboarding, and I don't mean this in terms of you hand them to your HR person and they get them into your, you know, payroll system. 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.759 I mean the concept of actually onboarding them into your entire machine. 00:08:21.920 -->

00:08:24.800 And so we have an onboarding methodology at our company. 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:32.960 Um, and so we take people from effectively being brand new to then becoming billable and then being fully billable over a period of time. 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:36.960 And that onboarding plan is in and of itself a training methodology. 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:46.240 And then I think there's the ongoing concept of training where once somebody is fully onboarded to the machine, how are we evolving their skill set even further to meet our needs? 00:08:46.399 --> 00:09:00.960 And we actually had a methodology for that at my previous company, and it's something that we talk to our current clients about, which is how do you keep people one retained, but meeting the needs of your business because they're trained to achieve what it is that you need out of them. 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:01.679 Mm-hmm. 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:04.559 There's a couple of different things I'd love to respond to there. 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:06.080 I'm gonna start with the onboarding. 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:18.080 So, onboarding is one of those topics that we all know as business leaders, business owners is so critical to get new employees into your company and help them hit the ground running. 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:25.279 The practical execution of a good onboarding program is another matter entirely just because it's difficult, right? 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:33.759 We're we're small businesses here, we've we're wearing a lot of hats, we're running around, we're trying to keep the wheels, you know, from falling off the bus sometimes. 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:35.759 And like, how do you think about that? 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:48.799 Uh, how do you encourage integrators to think about that in terms of like, how do you structure an onboarding program that that can actually work in the practical day-to-day realities of a crazy busy integration business? 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:49.919 Yeah. 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.200 Uh the first one is intent, right? 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:56.399 Um, I I imagine this actually looking at it from the inverse. 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:57.919 What happens when I do it wrong? 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:12.080 So if I do this wrong, I will have just found this person and I'll have gone through the hiring process, and then I will have gone through an offer letter and then they signed it, and then they're here and now they're gone because I didn't onboard them well. 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:14.399 So, what's the cost of all that? 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:16.799 Like whatever that is, what's the cost of that? 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:21.519 And so I think on the other hand, if we're really thinking long term, which ideally we should be, right? 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:22.879 We're looking to hire in the long term. 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:28.159 We're not usually looking to quote unquote staff or you know, for a short-term need. 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.279 If that's true,

well, then I need people to stick around. 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:33.200 Okay, so what's that involve? 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:38.000 And so we actually laid that out in our company, and uh, we use a Slack canvas. 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:44.799 And so when somebody onboards, they have a Slack canvas and that's their onboarding canvas, and they cover everything about our company. 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:46.000 I mean, everything. 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:50.240 And then there's getting them into meeting rhythms, and then there's allowing them to shadow. 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.279 Best Buy has a methodology called CSA do, right? 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:59.360 So, like these types of ideas are just how do we onboard somebody to every component of the business? 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.159 Now, some of the things that we do are video recordings. 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:07.440 So we use Loom, we do screen recordings, and then somebody can watch those things, learn how to do it, and then they can execute. 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.639 And once they've done it and signed off, we can check the box. 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:21.120 So some things are going to be shadowing, some things are going to be watching videos, some things might be related to content that exists out there from a manufacturer or an industry-related resource. 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.080 So each one of those things can come from differing places. 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:37.440 But I think the question is if it's really important to the fundamental of the business, I want them armed and dangerous with that coming out of the gate, not something that, hey, if and when the event, then I somehow magically explained it to you, right? 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.039 After you've stepped all over yourself. 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.559 We're trying to do that on the preemptive side of that, on the onboarding. 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:44.559 Yeah, I think that that's helpful advice. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:53.519 And uh one thing that I would add to that is just um as somebody who worked in integration companies for over a decade, I know how crazy busy things can get. 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:58.000 The big the biggest thing that I would say is like just start somewhere. 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:06.320 If if you're if your onboarding process is a bit of a chaotic mess right now, like understand that like for the next hire, it doesn't have to be perfect. 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:11.840 Just try to make it better than it is now with every hire that you make and get it documented. 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:23.039 Just sit down with Notion or Google Docs or whatever tool that you use and just you know go through the exercise of writing down like what are the core things that we need somebody to learn and make sure that there's a list. 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.720 Again, a spreadsheet, a Notion Doc, a Google Doc, like anything can work. 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:35.600 And even just that simple step of getting it all on

the page will help you identify further iterations that you can implement to just continually get better with every hire. 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.039 I'll give you a few kind of elements that I think are easy. 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:41.360 The first is set up a 30, 60, 90. 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.360 So just open up a document, right? 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:45.519 Start typing 30, 60, 90. 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:47.440 What would somebody have achieved by then? 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:55.279 And if you can imagine the concept of discovery, becoming proficient, highly skilled, they can have grades of that. 00:12:55.440 --> 00:13:07.120 So some things might go from beginning to fully end in the 30-day window, but some things might be big enough that we're only biting off a segment of it in 30, a further segment in 60, and a further segment in 90. 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:10.960 As you lay that out onto the page, you're gonna kind of blink at that. 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:15.440 And then what I say is take what's in your 30 day and literally go put it into their calendar. 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.320 Put it into their calendar in 30-minute increments. 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:23.840 If there's too much stuff in your 30 day to fit on the calendar, you know it's too much stuff to go do. 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:31.279 Um, if on the other hand, you put that 30 days onto the calendar and there's way too much free time, you probably haven't made it ambitious enough. 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:36.480 And so I think that that question, it's it's not role to roll, although you will do that. 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:43.200 It's person within the role dependent because they're starting from a different place than somebody else that you might have hired. 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.240 And so I think that that question is really based on each individual. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.879 Now there's gonna be core functions that everyone's gonna want to know. 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:50.159 What are your core values? 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:52.080 What's your standard meeting rhythms, right? 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:53.279 All those types of things. 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.840 But then there's gonna be specific trainings that are either manufacturer, industry, what have you. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:02.159 They need to find their way into that calendar so that that person comes armed with that toolkit. 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:03.759 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.039 Um, zooming back out. 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.159 So you talked about training in broadly speaking, two different buckets. 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:15.360 There was the onboarding considerations, and then there's the ongoing upskilling and proficiency training for existing employees. 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:20.080 There was an audience question that came in beforehand that I'd love to tee up here. 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:27.360 Bill Xtrand said, What are other companies doing to maintain technician skills and product training while keeping project timelines on task? 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:35.600 He says at some point, all of our technicians may need to know a skill, but it is impractical to send everyone at the same time on a trip to get trained. 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:37.519 Is there advice that you could give? 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.000 And by the way, I'll open this to folks in the audience as well. 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:52.000 If you have perspectives here that you can share about how you balance this need to provide ongoing training to technicians with the day-to-day realities of the business and keeping projects on track. 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.799 Chris, is there any advice that you would give to Bill or other integrators who may be struggling with this? 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:58.000 First, we know Bill. 00:14:58.080 --> 00:14:59.440 So hey, Bill, thanks for the question. 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:00.559 Really appreciate it. 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:08.320 Um, so yes, our opinion of this when I ran integration company was that we knew what our needs were. 00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.480 Not everyone had to have the highest level of training of anything. 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:16.879 But we did know that we needed a primary and a backup for every key function. 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:20.799 That could be programming, that could be system design, I mean, any number of things. 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:27.759 And so when you sit down and you think about, okay, what's your primary and backup for every key function? 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.440 You now know where the holes are in your machine. 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.639 Now, that is not the employee's job to fix that. 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:40.000 That is your job as a manager and leader to make sure that your machine is resilient. 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:44.159 So if that's true, what do you think I'm doing with that calendar? 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:49.039 I'm putting where those trainings need to be for that individual so that my machine is resilient. 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.440 And I'm building the rest of it around that. 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:55.519 Because the alternative, when we talk about flipping the thing around, is not great, right? 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.240 The alternative is not having a resilient machine. 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:05.440 Um, and so I look at those types of things and I go, that's my job as the leader and the manager to create that opportunity. 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.679 Now, fundamentally, I don't need to send everyone, quote unquote, away to a training. 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:10.960 That doesn't make any sense. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.240 But there are definite people that need to be attending certain types of trainings. 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.320 So we were a big Lutron shop as an example. 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:18.960 We knew that Lutron held certain trainings throughout the year. 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.639 Our job was to determine who

needed to be in those Lutron trainings. 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:28.240 And then we would staff accordingly to that and we would plan our production schedules accordingly. 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.200 And so we knew that we were going to be short staffed that week. 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.639 I knew that I needed to do that to make sure that my machine was resilient. 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:35.360 Yeah. 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:41.200 I think there is an element to of this where it's just like it just comes down to raw discipline. 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:46.240 You have to put the time on the calendar, protect the time for your team, and then just treat that as sacred. 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:50.159 Like it's so easy to go into your calendar and block time for training. 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.000 And then it's also easy to push that time because something more pressing comes up, right? 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:56.240 And so you have to really have the discipline. 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:01.600 And I sometimes like, and this is I'm giving myself advice here too, because we all struggle with this. 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:11.519 Um, but like really asking yourself the question of like, well, if this employee got sick for a day and just couldn't come to work, guess what I'd do? 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:13.200 We'd we'd figure it out, right? 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.279 So the same thing is with training. 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:24.000 Like you just have to say, okay, training is an immovable object on this person's calendar, and and we just need to do whatever it takes to work around that. 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:26.880 And um, you know, also don't let perfect be the enemy of good. 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:32.640 Like if you put those time blocks on the calendar and every now and then they slip, okay, but like don't give up. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:38.799 Stick with the discipline and make sure that over time you're you're putting in that effort to protect that time and space for your team. 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:46.720 And I would say some of those things are going to be more flexible than others, you know, and off-site training out of manufacturers that only happens once a year. 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:48.720 Guess what I'm not punting on? 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:49.200 Right. 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.920 Now, those we're only sending to people when they're a must-have, not a nice to have. 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:54.240 Yeah. 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:58.640 Now, there might be times when you would say, ooh, this is a nice to have type of training. 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:00.079 I can punt on that. 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:06.079 Or it is an online related thing, whether it gets done this Tuesday or next Tuesday is actually irrelevant. 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:07.519 I can punt on that. 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:12.640 And I think the question is whenever we put something on the calendar, you were only allowed to move it once. 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:13.119 Right. 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:20.559 Like manually moving it over was then your kind of indicator that you had done it one time and now we had to stick to it. 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.079 Or the plan was ill ill-conceived, right? 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:25.920 You're like, I don't need to send this person to that. 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:27.519 Why, why am I blocking timeout? 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:33.839 So I would sit down and um, I call it primary backup, and I have a little spreadsheet that I use to kind of lay out the functions. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.079 And then we start dropping people's names into it. 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.160 And then we sit down and we say, where are the holes? 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:43.039 And I think that that kind of question for every team, by the way, this can happen within departments too. 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.839 It doesn't, it's not just the entire company as a whole. 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.200 So teams can sit down and understand what their training requirements are. 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:53.920 And I think the best organizations are ones that view themselves to be training and development organizations. 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:54.400 Yeah. 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:55.519 Yeah, I like that. 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.559 Um, shifting gears a little bit, question came into the chat that I think is a good one and would love to hear your perspectives on. 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:02.160 What are your thoughts on 1099s? 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.000 So going with independent contractors versus W-2 employees. 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:07.519 Great question. 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.920 And I think it depends a bit on the what, right? 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:11.680 The what role, what function. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.279 As an example, we outsourced our shade installation labor. 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:19.359 We had a great company that we partnered with and we effectively outsourced to them. 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:22.400 Um, so I think in certain cases it can be great. 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:30.480 Um, keep in mind you need to be really careful about trying to treat a 1099 like a W-2 because there's all sorts of rules around it. 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.720 So you should be talking to employment attorneys. 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.359 You also need to know who your 1099s really are. 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:39.119 So you can't have 1099s that are only employed by you as an example. 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.359 Um, so keep thinking about those types of kind of legal related questions. 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:48.160 Uh there's also limiting factors to how you can engage with those types of people. 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:55.680 Um, one of our clients actually had a salesperson who was interested in, you know, potentially switching from being a W-2 to a 1099. 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.799 And I looked at it and I went, that's not gonna work, right? 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.839 Like that's not gonna be functional

inside of your business. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.839 And so it then also sets a bad precedent for other salespeople in the organization. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.039 And so I think that these types of questions need to be really looked at. 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:13.599 In some cases, they're they're very logical conclusions and you can absolutely go down that path. 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.599 And in other cases, there are gonna be very practical reasons why that's not a great idea. 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.880 And so I don't think it's a hard, fast yes or no question. 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:27.279 I think it's it really needs to be looked at case by case and you know, happy to unpack those types of things with our clients. 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.720 So the answer to this question, like so many others, is it depends. 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.119 Um, but that's a good framework um to think through. 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:35.200 And I think those are good perspectives. 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:37.920 Um let's talk about timing. 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:42.240 So before I kick off this question to you, Chris, I'm gonna launch a poll. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:49.519 If everybody on the webinar could take a minute to provide your perspectives here, it would be super helpful to know uh where everyone's at. 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.359 So there is a poll up on the screen, and it's what what kicks off your hiring process. 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:59.440 So while we're waiting for responses to that come in, Chris, timing is a big thing here. 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:14.319 And I can imagine, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I can imagine that you, as somebody who helps integrators with staffing and recruiting and hiring, that you're probably more frequently than you would like getting phone calls from integrators whose hair is on fire because they need a person yesterday. 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.039 Uh, I'm curious, like never happens. 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:18.720 Um, yeah. 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.240 So so how does timing play out for the most successful integrators? 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:23.680 How do you think about this? 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:31.279 Are there ways that you encourage integrators to think about the timing of starting uh the search for for the next candidate? 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:46.400 The the downside to being under timing pressure is that you're more likely to misstep and or overlook uh a problem that given more time frame, given more flexibility, you probably would have addressed and said no to. 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:51.119 And so I think the first one is is are you being intentional about your hiring? 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:57.039 And so when I hear somebody saying, My hair is on fire, I don't hear intentionality, I hear rush, Daniel can see it, right? 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:03.200 Um, and so if we can be intentional, you Can take a look at your sales funnel. 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:05.519 You can take a look at your close rate. 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:10.880 You can take a look at the projects that you see coming through your sales machine and when you're likely to sign for those. 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:15.759 And you can be anticipating labor needs ahead of you, right? 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.240 Looking further than the nose of your car, right? 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:20.319 Looking further than the dips of your skis. 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:25.039 And I think that that question is if you can be in that way, better things can happen. 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:30.640 The second is that the people that are out there looking for jobs are looking kind of in intervals. 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:38.000 And so if you can imagine the labor pool in a 30 to 45 day window is going to look different in the next 30 to 45 days. 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.759 Those people have come off the market and they're no longer available. 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:50.319 And so what happens if you try and time that and you look in your 30 to 45 day window and you don't find the person that you really want to be on your team? 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.119 And then now are we just going to force the issue? 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:55.759 That seems like a weird kind of question. 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:02.880 So the longer we give ourselves, the better it is to be able to find the human that we want for any given seat. 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:05.279 Um, and things happen, by the way. 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:13.599 So let's say we do find the right person and something happens towards the very end of that process where that person proves not to be the right person. 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:20.480 Like I've gotten through multiple rounds of interview to get to the final one to then go, ooh, we've discovered something and I'm glad we dodged that bullet. 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:27.279 Well, I don't then want to have to force myself to move through with that process just because that would be a very bad decision. 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:31.680 And so I think this idea about giving yourself space to breathe is really, really important. 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.160 Um, I know a question came up uh in the chat window about, you know, potential temp labor. 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:40.720 I think there's ways to augment forces if what you're feeling is near-term pressure. 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:48.400 And I think that this question is about the long-term strategy for your hiring and giving yourself the best shot at long-term success. 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:53.119 And if that's true, giving yourself a little bit more space to breathe will only help you. 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:57.839 Um, and and that would be my general suggestion to anyone for any position in any market. 00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.119 I think that that's helpful. 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:02.319 And I'm gonna share the results to the poll here in just a second, but I wanted to ask a follow-up. 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:11.599 So if I'm a if I'm a business

owner, I'm an integrator, and I'm like feeling the need to hire is is on the near horizon, what sort of timelines should I expect? 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:22.000 Like if I don't do this often and the labor market's always shifting, so this is a kind of a moving target, I would imagine, from the time that I say, okay, I need to hire. 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:25.279 Maybe I'm doing that with the co-team, maybe I'm doing that independently. 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:34.160 But from that time that I make the decision to the time where I've actually got somebody who's signed an offer letter, what should I be thinking about in terms of a timeline there? 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:35.519 How long does that take? 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.000 Gosh, I hate to say it depends, but I'll give you some times. 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:38.799 No, it's okay. 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:39.519 It depends. 00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:40.559 It's okay. 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:42.480 But yeah, like a framework, right? 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:43.119 Yep. 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.440 So for things that are more ubiquitous. 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:49.680 So let's talk about warehouse workers and maybe bookkeepers and those types of things. 00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.640 In other words, every business has them, not just our industry. 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:54.640 That time frame can be much shorter. 00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:04.480 And for things that are going to be a bit more um technical specific, let's say a programmer or an engineer or somebody like that, those timeframes can elongate. 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.359 And so I think that there's an important distinction, number one. 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.640 In terms of kind of process, just think through this for a moment. 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:18.079 We need to post a job, we need to begin to review resumes, we need to do initial rounds of interviews, we need to do follow-up interviews. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.759 We then potentially need to have some kind of like a field or office trial day. 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:24.880 And then we need to get an offer letter signed and accepted. 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:30.079 And that person, if they're employed, now needs to give notice to whomever they're currently employed with. 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:34.000 That process on the short side, 60 days, right? 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:35.039 On the short side. 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:35.279 Yeah. 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:40.400 And now if we sit down and we say on the long side, could that be 60 to 90 days or longer? 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:41.039 Yes. 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:46.160 And could it be even longer than that if we're looking for something very specifically technical? 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:47.920 Yes, it could be much longer than that. 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:54.319 And so I think that these types of questions, again, are about that pyramid question and about where we would hire for. 00:25:54.559 --> 00:26:00.799 And so I would like to pose this question out there to everyone who's thinking about their next hire, respective to whatever it is. 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:06.960 If I was to find somebody lower down the pyramid who needed more training, but I could have them start sooner. 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:13.200 Or I'm gonna wait to find somebody who's further up the pyramid, but they're gonna start much later. 00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:17.759 If I was to pit those two horses against each other, which one gets to the finish line faster? 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:20.400 And it's a really, really interesting question. 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:26.640 And if you're truly open-minded to it and your organization has a training component, you get the option of both. 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:27.519 Right. 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:34.559 If you don't, you might only get the option of finding the person who's got all of those skills, and you might just be waiting. 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:39.359 And meanwhile, we're busy not producing work, and meanwhile, we're busy not producing net profit. 00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:44.079 And so I think that those types of questions need to really be thought about structurally in a business. 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:44.799 Yeah. 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.799 And I think that that comes back to that idea of intentionality that you've mentioned a few times. 00:26:48.880 --> 00:27:00.160 And I'm taking that away already from this discussion, is when it comes to recruiting and hiring, a real deliberate focus on intentionality in this whole process is really, really critical. 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.839 Um, I'm gonna go ahead and share the results of this poll. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.920 So it's pretty evenly spread, actually. 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:10.000 We've got a handful of options that are all kind of vying for that lead spot. 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.480 The the team is already stretched thin. 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.119 Uh, we're always recruiting, even with no open role. 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:16.799 25% of respondents said that. 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:17.599 That's cool to see. 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.440 I think that's a great approach if you're in a the position to do that as a company. 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:26.720 Uh we're we certainly try to adopt that at One Vision, and it's a great place to be if you're able to. 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:33.759 Um, and then yeah, someone gives notice or we land a big project or new line of work are tied at 17%. 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:38.079 Chris, I'd love to hear just your responses to these survey results. 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:39.119 Absolutely. 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.200 So as you mentioned, really even. 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:46.480 But if you're always in the position to have conversations with people, I think it's your best bet. 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:51.519 That doesn't mean you might always hire somebody, but you'd at least be open-minded the conversation. 00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:56.319 At my previous company, we

actually kept a very short list of people that we were open-minded to hiring. 00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.839 And we actually invited those people to our events, right? 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:03.359 Like Christmas parties and socials and all those types of things. 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.960 And we were trying to keep them close to our ecosystem. 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:11.039 And so I think that the very first option that you listed there is kind of like that. 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:12.480 Be open-minded to it. 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.920 The other one is, and this is a really good takeaway for everyone here. 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:20.720 Let's say you're posting up a job for a technician and we get lots of resumes that come in. 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.599 And what shows up is actually a project manager. 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.480 And it actually looks like a qualified PM. 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.200 Do you think I'm saying no to that resume? 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:30.880 No, I'm having that conversation. 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:36.240 Like I'm talking to that person because we need to figure out if that person needs to be on our short list or not. 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:42.240 I may not be able to bring that person for a job, but when I interview them, I'm going to have that dialogue with them right then and there. 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.680 Hey, I don't think you're right for this role, but I'd love to have a conversation with you about this. 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:47.759 Your resume really interested me. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.799 And so I think that first option that you gave is really that. 00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:52.799 The someone gives notice part. 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.440 So that's being highly reactive. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:00.160 Um, if somebody is giving notice to you, and by the way, this does happen, right? 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.519 People are relocating, there's all sorts of reasons why it might happen. 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:13.920 Um, but I think fundamentally this comes back to the primary backup question we talked about, which is do you have a fallback position plan for when that type of thing happens? 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:16.079 Um, what would happen in the event of? 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.799 And so I think it's a really, really interesting one there. 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:20.559 The team is already stretched thin. 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.119 So look, we run the same type of strategy here. 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:24.960 We know what our billable time is. 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:29.359 And so when we're fundamentally at capacity, we're gonna need to be hiring. 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.680 And so we're seeing that coming at us and we're trying to be reactive to that. 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:41.920 Um, for the folks that are in the stretch thin part, you can absolutely start to look at your sales uh backlogs and understand what that might look like coming forward. 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:46.160 And if you can do that, you you can become less reactive and more predictive. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:48.880 Um, you know, land a big project or new line of work. 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.759 I think what's interesting about that is you've got a little bit of time to react, right? 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:58.880 So from the time you land the project, you usually don't have to immediately deploy resources right to a job site, at least in this industry. 00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:04.559 Um, so you've got some more time to be um kind of planning as opposed to purely reactive. 00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.880 And then the look, we rarely hire some people who are kind of at a static run rate state, right? 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:10.960 And so it's really not a big issue for them. 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:13.279 And I think that that's there's nothing wrong with that. 00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:22.400 Um, I think for any of these people, what would be the risk profile if one of those folks were to give notice or if you were to land a big project, et cetera? 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.000 What would your plan be? 00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:30.240 And I think if you at least have that plan kind of laid out and knowing what it is, it's like in case of emergency break glass. 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:33.759 If you've already got that plan kind of lined up, you're in good shape. 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:41.599 Um, I would just be really worried about anybody where if somebody were to resign or you were to land a project, you couldn't be responsive enough in the timeliness. 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.359 That's probably the statement where we need to go kind of revisit what the plan looks like. 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:45.920 Yeah. 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:58.400 And it and it probably makes sense to look at that primary backup plan like across the company, but definitely when you're looking at like key roles like a crestron programmer or something like that, right? 00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:23.200 Like if this person up and decides to up and leave and gives us a two-week notice, what's our plan so that we're not having to go out there again with our hair on fire to scramble to find a crestron programmer, even if we just have a backup that's good enough to buy us a little bit of breathing room so that we can go bring on a more senior person, somebody that can just help us get by in those critical roles, again, like a programmer, project manager, those types of things. 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:24.799 Uh, that makes a lot of sense. 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:33.119 Let's shift gears and talk about the actual job listings, job descriptions, postings. 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:38.720 How do you encourage people to think about we we're all out there in this? 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.359 If you've ever gone, I mean, we're employed, right? 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.759 So we're not probably you're spending a lot of time. 00:31:43.839 --> 00:32:02.079 I'm not spending a lot of time on job boards, but when I

have gone and looked, like very clear to me that things have fundamentally changed over the last call it five years, and that with AI now, there's just, you know, tons of people out, like they're looking, applying at a fast rate, blasting through job descriptions, trying to find the right fit. 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:08.799 How do you write a post or a job description that actually attracts people, the want to come work for your company? 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:17.599 One of the things that we hear from applicants about the posts that we use tends to be I was actually really attracted to the language of it. 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:21.519 I was really attracted to the tonality of it, to the humanity of it. 00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:29.119 And so I think one of the questions that I would always ask is does it feel like a human wrote it or another human? 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:42.319 Now, it's okay if AI wrote it and it can sound like that, but I would sit down and say if it feels really mechanical and if it feels very like purely matter of fact, and if it feels legal or HR related, you have missed. 00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:44.720 Full stop, right? 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:48.240 I think that it needs to be attractive. 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:49.759 It's an advertisement. 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.880 And so I think that this question is what are you advertising? 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:55.039 Like, is it your culture? 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:02.880 Is it that you're actually a fun place to work and that people can hear and see that right from the way the the context of it's written? 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.319 And so I start to think about what does the applicant want? 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:11.599 Actually, it's not much about what you want as the employer or even the hiring manager. 00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:12.799 What do they want? 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:15.519 Why would they want to make this move? 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:22.160 Because actually, right now, this isn't about a bunch of people that are unemployed just sitting around waiting for your job to appear so that they can have a job. 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:24.559 It's most of these folks are actually employed. 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:27.920 So why would they want to be at your company? 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:33.839 And if you can start to understand their motivations, they're not getting the training that they want. 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:39.119 They have schedules that are highly prohibitive or weird on-call schedules. 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:45.359 They've got people that can't keep them fully employed a full 40 hours a work week. 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:54.720 So you start to realize where it is that people are coming from, and then you become a safe haven that is the counterpoint to all of that nonsense that they're leaving. 00:33:54.880 --> 00:34:07.119 And I think if you can figure out what that looks like and do it in about 400 words or less and talk to them about what they want, not about what you

want, you will have much better success than not. 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:11.920 And so what we see often when we're looking at job posts is that those things just aren't being addressed. 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:13.199 What's the schedule? 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:14.480 Who do I report to? 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:15.760 What are your core values? 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:16.719 What does it pay? 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:18.239 What's the benefits? 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.880 All of that stuff is what they want to know. 00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:25.119 And you should be telling them because transparency is amazing, right? 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:30.159 And you start from that position, everybody's on a level playing field that way, and that's a good thing, not a bad thing. 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.639 And so we see just a lot of folks that just don't, they're just not thinking that way. 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:45.039 I don't think they're intentionally trying to be the opposite of that, but they're kind of writing a mechanical thing that feels pretty dry and uninteresting and for them, and you go, I kind of get why it's not successful. 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:46.079 It may it makes sense. 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:55.599 I've done a ton of writing in my career, and that's one of the things that you you consistently hear when people give advice about writing, is you have to really make sure that you're writing for the reader. 00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:06.480 And that sounds like a really obvious thing when you say it out loud, but it is a subtle shift that you really have to pay attention to to pick up on when you're doing it right versus when you're doing it wrong. 00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:17.280 And I think that makes total sense in the world of writing job posting, job postings and job descriptions is you really have to make sure that the writing you're putting out there is for the reader, not for you. 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:24.320 Speaking of which, job posting and job description, I know you've told me, aren't the same thing. 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.559 Unpack that for the audience. 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:30.960 Yeah, I think when people think about a job description, they think about an internal document. 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:32.159 It's pretty lengthy, right? 00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:35.920 I've seen them 3,000 words, you know, multiple pages. 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:43.920 And you look at this and you go, okay, what you've written is a brief, not so brief, about how this whole thing functions inside of your organization. 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.760 But when we're putting up a job post, that's an advertisement. 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:57.599 And so I the joke I kind of like to say is, you know, imagine if Coca-Cola's billboard said makes you fat and gives you diabetes, it'd be very technically correct, but it's not actually drawing a lot of people into that. 00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.239 But it says enjoy, and everyone's like, ah, I gotta have it. 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.440 And so I think that this kind of question is is very similar. 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:13.519 If the thing you're putting out onto indeed Zippercruiter Monster, your company LinkedIn page, if all of that was written by, you know, HR and legal, we've missed. 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.440 Like there, there is your distinction in kind of how you talk about that. 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.960 And so I think it's okay to have both documents. 00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:26.159 It's not saying you can only live with one or the other, it's know the place for that respective document. 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:48.800 It's almost like thinking about it like a conversion funnel, the same way you, when you do like marketing, the idea is you give an initial email that's very high level, you try to keep it short and just enough to get there, get them to click, and then they go to a landing page where there's a little bit more information, and then you try to convert them to there where you get into the sales process and you really go deep. 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:55.039 So thinking about it maybe in a similar way where recruiting, you mentioned it, is an advertisement. 00:36:55.199 --> 00:37:03.440 You are selling your company to somebody else and thinking about it in that conversion funnel sense of like, don't try to get everything in that first bit. 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:14.639 Make sure the job posting is accurate and you know enough that they know what's going on, but it it shouldn't be overwhelming and it shouldn't drown them in legalese or HR stuff. 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:24.880 And Jason, maybe to put a really kind of easy metric to it, what are the 20% of things that will consume 80% of their time in their day-to-day? 00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:26.800 Like what is that? 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:34.800 And if you can really put that list down to five to 10 simple bullets about what you do every day, that is enough, right? 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.280 Like that is what you materially get done. 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:39.440 Yes, I understand that there's edge cases. 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.639 And then the other stuff to help you guys with your word count to make it more simple is leave out all the nonsense. 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.480 I get that you want a team player. 00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:48.960 I understand you want somebody who's detail-oriented. 00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:56.559 Putting that on your job post is not helping anybody apply or not apply for that job, nor is it helping you find somebody who is those things or not those things. 00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:02.960 So you might as well just take all that stuff off that is really kind of just superfluous. 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:03.679 Yeah. 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:04.480 Yep. 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.440 Let's go to the next stage in the process, interviewing. 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:14.800 So I know you help your clients with this, but let's speak to an integrator who may not be

using the co-team and is planning to do this internally. 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:22.400 What are some strategies and frameworks that you would recommend people understand and adopt in order to get the most out of interviews? 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:23.519 Because it can be really hard. 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:35.519 I mean, I when I interview people, I'm always like worried that I'm not asking the right questions to really elicit like the true story, quote unquote, or to get to the things that I really ultimately need to understand. 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.000 So, how do you recommend people approach that? 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.119 So the first is don't try and get it all done at once. 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.039 You may have different rounds of interviews. 00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:52.559 And so understand what the purpose of each round of interview is respectively, and who needs to be participating in it and what the outcome of that interview wants to be. 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.960 So I think that's a really important first step. 00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.119 So if I were to give you an example, we do a Zoom interview that's 30 minutes. 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:02.639 We, in our case, because we're remote, we do a Zoom interview that's an hour. 00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:04.400 They are very different interviews. 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:10.079 If we were doing an in-person role, we'd do the Zoom for 30 minutes and then an in-person for an hour. 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:12.480 And they would be effectively the same hour interview. 00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:14.320 The difference would just be where it happened. 00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:21.280 Then the next one is that we actually do a shadow day or what we call a field or office trial day. 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:29.760 That would look different for a technician than it would for an engineer, than it would for an accounting person, but you can imagine that you're effectively turning the thumbscrews technically. 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:33.440 Um, and so if you can imagine each of those interviews has a purpose. 00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:38.800 So in the first 30-minute Zoom interview, it's like, can you actually show up to the Zoom interview? 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:40.159 Can you get on Zoom? 00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:42.800 Um, you know, on time, well presented, well spoken. 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:44.719 Did they seem intelligent, friendly, authentic? 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:45.920 Did they act like an adult? 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:47.440 We're trying to flesh out that. 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:51.599 We're getting through 10 years of work history, why they move through their businesses. 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:53.840 We're trying to understand narrative arc. 00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:00.079 And then we're getting into a little bit of the technical to understand, okay, are we, are we having the right kind of conversation? 00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:01.920 Or are they way out of their depth? 00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:04.639 And

then we're jumping down into personality fit. 00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:07.440 Um, so we're looking for people that are hungry, humble, and smart. 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:09.679 So smart CQ, emotional intelligence. 00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.199 We're looking for that across everyone we hire for, no matter what the position. 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.599 And then we're looking for compensation requirements. 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:20.639 In about half the states, you can't ask what you do make, but you can ask what would you like to make. 00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:24.079 And if you post it on the job, now we're talking about people commensurate with that. 00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:29.920 When we've vetted through that, we're left with maybe two or three humans that are worth an in-person interview. 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:30.960 Maybe, right? 00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:36.159 And so at that point, now when we go to the in-person interview, we're diving much, much deeper. 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:39.599 I don't need to keep having the same conversation from the first one. 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:43.119 We're diving into the traits that would make somebody successful. 00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:46.000 The easiest book on this is from Eric Herring Call. 00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:48.320 It's called How to Hire A Players. 00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:50.159 And it's a very simple book. 00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:54.159 I can send you kind of a synthesis in a single sheet that talks about what it says. 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:59.360 But we use that method internally and we prescribe it to our clients to use if they're interested. 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:00.719 It's very simple to do. 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:02.079 It doesn't cost any money. 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:03.920 There's nothing to buy, right? 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:11.840 But if you can get really good at this methodology, what you'll do is you'll vet through the people who are likely to be good at this role and not good at this role. 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:16.800 And by the way, this is also useful for if you want to promote an internal employee into that role. 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:23.920 You can run through the exact same exercise and say, ah, they are not indexing heavy enough on the A side of this to be good. 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:31.119 And then from there, we can jump into actually doing the field or office trial day, respective to the position. 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:34.559 And so from there, that will look again different to the position and role. 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:40.000 But for instance, it might be shadowing an accounting person and having them run through some things to make sure that they know. 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:44.880 With engineering, it might be flipping through some documentation and having them point to some things. 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:49.840 With people in the technical side, it might be terminating cables or having them do a ride-along. 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:57.519 And so these types of things are

the way to go, ah, whenever we've had a bad hire, which part of our mechanism would have picked that up? 00:41:57.679 --> 00:41:58.880 And how did we miss it? 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:04.000 And how can we tune for it in the future so we do less of those things and do more of them right? 00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.599 And so I think that those types of things just have a method. 00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:13.920 And then that way when things don't go well, you can say, ah, I've got a place to come back into my method and revise or retune. 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:15.280 Yeah, got it. 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:24.639 I'd love to share with you something that I think about when I do hiring and then get your response to it and see if this is a framework, if there's a framework around this for others to think about. 00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:46.800 So I've I've realized over the years that I've managed more and more people that there are a set of traits, and I won't give like the full list right now, but like a set of call it five to eight traits, sometimes depending on the role and so forth, that that I know just generally I want to find in a person no matter what I'm hiring them for. 00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:57.119 Essentially, examples of these would be things like high levels of curiosity, um a sense of agency, uh those, you know, initiative, these kinds of things. 00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:08.079 Are are there is there guidance that you would recommend for integrators to maybe come up with a list of these generalizable traits that might apply across a really broad swath of jobs? 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:17.119 And if so, is there recommendations that you can give for how to identify what those are and maybe tease them out through an interview, an interviewing process? 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:19.679 I wouldn't say no to that idea. 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:27.119 What I would say is that I may not need curiosity in one of my roles, like you may need it in all of yours. 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:37.920 And I think that one of those questions, then the how to hire a players discussion is really about what are the traits that make someone successful in this role at this budget versus at this role at this budget. 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:39.679 Those may look very different. 00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:47.199 And I think that that question about just going down one general side may not actually make them a better fit for this role or that role. 00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:57.920 And so what I would say is yes, and yes, you can do your core things, but actually, if they hit all the things they need for this job, I may not worry about the curiosity one. 00:43:58.480 --> 00:43:59.760 And I think that that question is. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:09.599 More you need to look at the roles individually and then really understand is that required in this role for this budget that we are paying, or is it not practical? 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:10.800 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:11.119 Yep. 00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.280 So once again, it depends, right? 00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:16.079 That that's helpful. 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.239 Uh okay, let's talk about retention. 00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:33.119 We are coming down the home stretch here, and I want to make sure that we that we give retention its due time because ultimately, like we talked about at the beginning, a lot of the challenges around hiring and recruiting can be avoided if you manage to keep people for a long time, right? 00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:46.000 So if you're constantly churning out your best employees, then you're struggling with hiring and you think you have a hiring problem, but ultimately the hiring is just a symptom of a bigger problem, which is you're not keeping the right people on your team for long enough. 00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:54.079 So, what are some of the core, I guess, building blocks, might you say, about a good retention strategy within an integration company? 00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:04.480 So we'll hit a few, and I don't want to jump past any of them and say, of course, you know these to be true, but it starts with hiring correctly. 00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:11.679 And I actually think that there's a lot of people that are not hiring correctly, and therefore their retention is a function of that. 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:16.000 They are washing out people that maybe they should be washing out, or those people should have washed out. 00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:20.079 And so I think that making sure you're actually hiring correctly is really crucial. 00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:24.559 Second one is I'm gonna put the onus back on managers and leaders. 00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:32.480 Do you have managers and leaders that are good managers and leaders and are actually being managers and leaders? 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:38.400 And you would know, because they have time in their calendar to do exactly that, and someone taught them how to be that way. 00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:47.679 And so one of the questions that I see a lot of is people who are washing through folks in their organization, and it might not be the employees' fault at all. 00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:50.719 And I think that that is a really, really interesting discussion. 00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:58.480 And I've seen this in a number of clients where departments will go through higher churn cycles than other departments in the organization. 00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:03.039 And you look at who's running that department and you go, there's a reason why that's happening. 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:08.800 Um, it could be because they're not hiring it correctly, it could be because they're then not managing or leading it correctly. 00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:19.519 And so um, one of the things that I think about is once you get those things checked off the list and you're doing those parts right, now the next question is, what are we doing to make these people happy? 00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.079 And one of my favorite things

is so simple. 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.119 And it was taught to me was did you ask? 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:30.639 So, what one employee wants and what another employee wants are not necessarily the same thing. 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:33.519 And if you haven't asked, you don't know. 00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:38.880 And if all we're doing is saying a one size fits all and this is what we get, then that's what we get. 00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:44.880 And I think that this question needs to kind of be asked more regularly from people like what is important to you? 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:49.599 And for some people, it might be money, and for some people it might be schedule, and for some people it might be title. 00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:51.760 Um, for some people, training. 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:53.840 Different people have different needs. 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:59.119 And I think fundamentally, if you want to retain good quality people, you should know what they want. 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:04.800 I it may sound really weird to ask it that way, but um I see a lot of companies not doing that. 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.480 And so it's not surprising then that they become disconnected. 00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:12.639 The other part would be frequency of your communication with those individuals. 00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:16.159 So there's a lot of people, and and I hear this a lot. 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:19.039 I just want to hire somebody that I don't have to tell what to do. 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:24.079 And they're basically abdicating managerial and leadership responsibility. 00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:27.760 Um, but also they might just be saying, I don't have the time for that. 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.639 Okay, well, I'm not surprised that that person left. 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:31.119 Right? 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:38.079 Because if you don't have time for that individual, they're going to move further and further outside of your orbit. 00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:43.760 And if they move far enough outside of your orbit, there's no gravitational pull keeping them in, they will spin out. 00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:48.159 And I think that that question is about practical meeting rhythms. 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:51.599 And those will be different with different types of positions in an organization. 00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.079 So not everyone meets weekly as an example. 00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:55.199 Not everyone meets monthly. 00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:57.920 Some people meet bi-monthly and some people meet quarterly. 00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:02.000 But I think this question is who's responsible for that individual? 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:04.960 And that to me would probably tell you an awful lot. 00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:06.559 What does that rhythm look like? 00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:08.159 What does that meeting look like? 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:09.679 What's on that agenda? 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.000 Do we know that that person is happy? 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:17.679 Do

we know that they're moving through their progression and training in a way that's good for us as a business and that makes them happy? 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:22.320 If that's all true, then the answer is we've probably got a tighter gravitational orbit. 00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:24.239 And if we don't, probably less so. 00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:24.639 Yeah. 00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:28.239 And so I think those are kind of the key components of it. 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:33.519 Um, and then there might be, you know, edge case, you know, specifics as to why an employee might not stay. 00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:34.719 Yeah, that's helpful. 00:48:34.880 --> 00:48:39.360 I I especially like the did you ask thing because I think like sometimes we just need to be reminded. 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.400 We we can miss things because they're so obvious, right? 00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:47.840 And uh at the end of the day, I think it's a good reminder that just these are just human relationships. 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:55.760 And ultimately, it's very intuitive if you just stop and think about like, I need to understand the people on my team and what it is that motivates them. 00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:58.400 And am I giving enough effort? 00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:16.000 I may not be able to check every box that they want, but do they see me genuinely wanting to know and genuinely making a you know continuous moves in that direction to get better as a company at helping them achieve their goals, uh, as well as as you know, them helping like it needs to be symbiotic, right? 00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:23.920 They're helping me achieve my goals as a leader and as a business, and I need to be helping them achieve their goals as a motivated, um, career-oriented individual. 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:25.519 So I think that's really helpful. 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:28.639 Um, we're gonna wrap things up here shortly. 00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:38.320 I want to put out a call to the audience to see if there's any other questions, comments, or feedback about anything that we have touched on thus far while we're waiting to see if any of those come in. 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:43.599 There was one additional audience question, Chris, that we got when we sent out the email to register. 00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:45.039 And that question was from Anthony. 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:51.440 And he said, How do you attract and retain entry-level techs in a market where they're constantly being poached? 00:49:51.599 --> 00:50:08.880 This I think is a great question because we all know it in this industry that there's a lot of like within any given geography, there's, you know, this group of good, highly trained technicians that sometimes kind of make the rounds um from company to company because they're constantly, like he's Anthony said, being poached. 00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:11.199 How do you reconcile with that dynamic? 00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:14.880 Yeah, that we call that term rock hoppers, right? 00:50:14.960

--> 00:50:18.159 People that hop from rock to rock to rock, and and it's definitely a flag. 00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:23.280 And we're not a big fan of those types of folks because it's hard to build a business around those types of people. 00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:27.599 Um the question he originally asked was around entry level. 00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:29.760 And so I think there's two ways to think about this. 00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:34.239 There's apprentice technicians who fundamentally are so entry-level that they don't know anything, right? 00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:37.039 We're actually trying to teach them kind of the ground up. 00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:43.840 So apprentice techs have one strategy, and then there's the entry-level techs, which would be like the cable pulling technicians, in my opinion. 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:46.960 Like that to me feels like an entry-level tech, not an apprentice. 00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:49.440 So let's talk about apprentices first. 00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:54.960 If you're going to attract apprentices, that's absolutely something you can do. 00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:57.199 Keep in mind you want a separate post for that. 00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:59.119 It has a pace scale that's lower. 00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:04.480 Um, it has absolutely a conversation on the job post about how we're teaching you these things. 00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:09.119 Um, and then you're going to have some basic requirements like do you know which end of a screwdriver to hold? 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:11.840 And are you fine being on a ladder and things like that? 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.400 So when we start to talk about apprentices, that is a strategy. 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:17.920 And you can absolutely go do that. 00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:19.920 And we do that for our clients today. 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.079 So we would highly recommend other companies doing it. 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:23.519 It's it's a great way to be. 00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.159 You do have to be a training and development organization. 00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:30.559 You do have to wait to teach the apprentices the things that they want to learn and do. 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:36.239 And they want to know how long am I going to be an apprentice before the next thing happens and I get to learn. 00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:41.679 So if you don't have those things planned out, I would go figure that out before you start hunting for apprentices. 00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:50.880 The other thing to consider for apprentices, because you're looking at the very base of the pyramid, you have the most people to talk to in the category. 00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:56.960 You're going to spend more time and energy weeding through embedding them because you can't really do it from the resume. 00:51:57.199 --> 00:51:59.440 And I think that that's just something to be aware of. 00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:04.960 You're going to consume more time and energy to find the right people out of such a wide pool. 00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:08.159 Separately, is what goes a notch up from that? 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:13.599 One of my favorite places to find technicians is commercial cabling technicians. 00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:21.039 So they pull a wire from here to there, they terminate it, they test it, they mount a device at the end of it and do so straight. 00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:25.599 They rack equipment and they typically can lace up equipment racks. 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:28.559 They don't know usually what all this stuff does. 00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:30.639 That's not where their energy is. 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:34.960 But those folks do all of the infrastructure work super well. 00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:38.320 And there are programs teaching them how to do that. 00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:40.400 And so they come armed. 00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:42.639 The downside is they can't go anywhere. 00:52:42.800 --> 00:52:44.400 Once they've done that, they stop. 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:50.559 And so if you start to look at how many of those people, the best of them, are looking for their next thing. 00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:52.559 And their companies can't do that. 00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:57.119 They have plateaued in their ability to learn and grow and touch new technologies. 00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:00.400 They're looking for where to go to do that. 00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:04.000 If I'm a business owner, I want to be that place. 00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:13.360 I want to be the place where the best 2% to 3% of those folks in any market go, that's where I go to get my next thing or my next knowledge. 00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:16.480 And I think that works very, very well. 00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:23.119 The other one, uh, which I think is kind of an untapped resource, is managed service providers, people who do outsourced IT. 00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:33.119 Now, not all of them have physical components, but some that do are pulling wire, managing networks, and physically on site dealing with racks and all that type of thing. 00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:39.599 Some of those folks have really skilled network capabilities and some have comp TIAs, others have C CNA certs. 00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:42.000 That's a 900-page course catalog. 00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:49.039 If you can figure out how to do a C CNA in 900 pages, I'll send you to Lutron School for three or four days. 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:49.599 Right. 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:54.159 Like those are the types of people where if you can say, well, what's your next step? 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:55.840 Oh, I can provide that for you. 00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:58.000 Let me teach you and help you grow. 00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:02.719 They come with an amazing fundamental capability and I'd want to optimize it. 00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:04.320 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:10.239 And I think when it comes to this poaching thing, too, it just a lot of it probably goes back to this retention conversation that we just had.

00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:21.039 And fundamentally, there are people out there, like you said, that you call them the rock hoppers, who probably, if you can pick up on those signals that that's just who they are, then avoid them to begin with. 00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:24.960 So let's put them aside in their own bucket and talk about everybody else. 00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:37.519 And fundamentally, you know, I I think, and I'd be open, Chris, to you challenging me on this, but like most people don't love the process of searching for a job and changing jobs and having to get retrained and all that stuff. 00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:55.119 Like generally, people would prefer to stay at a company that's taking, provided that company is taking good care of them, providing them opportunities to grow, compensating them fairly, and doing the basics well in terms of understanding what it is that they want and providing a good experience for them day in and day out. 00:54:55.280 --> 00:55:05.519 So I think focusing on the things you can control of providing that for your employees and trusting that like maybe they're gonna get poached, that's a bit out of your control. 00:55:05.679 --> 00:55:10.239 But what you can focus on is all of those boxes that we just talked about checking. 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:17.280 And that's your best hedge against uh this dynamic of your best employees or your entry-level employees being poached. 00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:23.840 During the interview cycle, because we ask for the last 10 years, why did you leave each position? 00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:27.760 We have a really good amount of data about why people say that. 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:36.239 Um, now there's some things where everyone else is the problem, and therefore that individual is the problem, but there are actually really good reasons why people are leaving companies. 00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:49.360 And I think if you could hear what those reasons were, and then you could really honestly hold up a mirror and look at your own business, and then you could sit down and say, we're actually really good in these categories and these aren't the threats. 00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:55.039 But those applicants are raising questions about their previous employers and we resemble that. 00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:03.360 Maybe I'd want to start to address those things and figure out how we don't have that weakness. 00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:08.719 And if we do, we become a magnet for talent and it becomes easier to retain talent. 00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:11.039 And if we don't, the opposite is true. 00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:21.280 And I think that that level of scrutiny, internal scrutiny, is what's required if you want to be, you know, able to attract and then retain those folks. 00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:29.840 If you had to break it down to like the top maybe one to three reasons, like when you ask people why they're leaving jobs, what what are the top things that you hear? 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.880 Uh training is one. 00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:33.119 Yeah. 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:33.440 Right. 00:56:33.599 --> 00:56:35.519 I don't see the growth opportunity here. 00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:37.519 And it's not just purely pay, right? 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:39.360 It's it's like I feel stuck. 00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:42.000 There's nothing else for me to do beyond what I'm doing. 00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:44.880 Um, another would be schedule. 00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:55.280 And I say that either because the schedule itself is prohibitive, or they're unable to keep that person fully employed for the 40 hours a week required. 00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:58.480 Super common problem with technicians, by the way. 00:56:58.639 --> 00:57:00.960 Um, so I think something to think about. 00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:07.760 Um, and then I while I think pay and benefits kind of go hand in hand. 00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:13.760 Um, different companies are in differing positions, but you hear those types of things a lot. 00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:19.280 And so all of those things are are fixable problems within any organization. 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:20.320 Got it. 00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:21.280 All right, Chris. 00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:22.880 Well, this has been a really fun conversation. 00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:24.239 No additional questions have come in. 00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:25.679 So we're gonna go ahead and wrap up. 00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:28.320 Really appreciate you sharing all these insights, super helpful. 00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:30.480 Even for me, I learned a ton during this discussion. 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:33.199 So, really, again, thank you for spending the time with us. 00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:43.679 If anybody is uh on the call with us today or listening to the recording and wants to connect with you to learn more about what you're doing or ask a follow-up question, what would be the best way for them to do that? 00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:51.280 Our website is the T H E co-teamt.com, thecoteam.com. 00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:56.880 And if you want to reach out to me directly, it's Chris C H R I S at thecodeam.com. 00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:57.840 All right, excellent. 00:57:57.920 --> 00:57:58.800 Well, Chris, thanks again. 00:57:58.880 --> 00:57:59.840 This has been fun. 00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:00.880 Thanks, Jason. 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:02.159 I always appreciate our time. 00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:02.800 You got it. 00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:03.280 Take care.