Rasmus Hougaard and Jacqueline Carter, The Mind of the Leader의 전체 녹취록

00:03:49.659 word meditation, I would not have dropped everything and gone 71 00:03:49.699 --> 00:03:53.129 to Nepal, right? Because I thought meditation was ridiculous. So 72 00:03:53.449 --> 00:03:55.830 what about it was attractive to you? 73 00:03:55.849 --> 00:03:59.259 Well, it definitely was ridiculous. Some of the first teachers 74 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:00.539 I met, that was pretty ridiculous. 75 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:01.979 Where were you living at the time? 76 00:04:02.139 --> 00:04:03.740 I was living in Copenhagen, Denmark. 77 00:04:05.090 --> 00:04:08.830 And so the early teachers you met in Copenhagen were …. 78 00:04:08.990 --> 00:04:11.509 No, I actually met the first teachers in Nepal. Oh, actually. 79 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:13.620 And that was a bit pretty esoteric, I would say. 80 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:17.720 Not like meditation or mindfulness as I would teach today 81 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:20.160 or as many of the teachers today, certainly in the West, 82 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:21.300 are teaching it. Pretty different. 83 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:23.399 And how old were you? What were you doing in 84 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:23.779 your life? 85 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:25.759 I was 18 and I was a student. 86 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:26.360 Okay. 87 00:04:26.579 --> 00:04:28.620 And your parents, how did they feel about the fact that. 88 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:30.560 You … My mother was afraid I would stay in 89 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.759 a monastery and never come back. But they were okay. 90 00:04:34.550 --> 00:04:36.910 And did you drop out of school to do this? 91 00:04:37.110 --> 00:04:40.170 No, I took a sabbatical for half a year and 92 00:04:40.769 --> 00:04:42.480 went off. And then I came back and then it's 93 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:46.079 been doing retreats and mainly studying with His Holiness Dalai 94 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:47.379 Lama for many years now. 95 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:48.199 Personally? 96 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:51.079 Yes, personally and in big audiences both. 97 00:04:51.370 --> 00:04:54.350 So how did you become a student? That's a pretty 98 00:04:54.389 --> 00:04:56.129 big deal. How did you become a student of the 99 00:04:56.149 --> 00:04:56.649 Dalai Lama? 100 00:04:57.389 --> 00:05:00.170 If you're, let's say, if you're committed enough to the 101 00:05:00.230 --> 00:05:03.509 practice and if you engage yourself in those circles, then 102 00:05:03.850 --> 00:05:04.550 that's what happens. 103 00:05:04.810 --> 00:05:08.610 So your practice is a Tibetan Buddhist practice? 104 00:05:09.069 --> 00:05:11.750 Yes, but I would say it's a Western form of that. 105 00:05:11.790 --> 00:05:15.740 So completely secular, completely scientific, more in the style that 106 00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:17.540 you would do it. So some of the teachers that 107 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:20.079 I've been following for the past 15 years are more 108 00:05:20.180 --> 00:05:23.250 Westernized teachers. So taking off the the

whistles and the 109 00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:25.550 bells and the colors and the mantras and all that stuff, 110 00:05:25.589 --> 00:05:26.889 and just a mind practice. 111 00:05:27.230 --> 00:05:29.769 Right, but if you're studying with the Dalai Lama, he's 112 00:05:29.810 --> 00:05:33.490 doing a lot of prostrations and prayers. 113 00:05:33.889 --> 00:05:37.629 Yeah, and when you meet him, you give him a kata. 114 00:05:37.709 --> 00:05:41.079 What's that? A kata, that's like this silk scarf you give, 115 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.959 and it's kind of a traditional Tibetan blessing. Nowadays, he 116 00:05:43.980 --> 00:05:46.839 just doesn't accept that. So he doesn't want that distance. 117 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.339 He doesn't want all that esoteric stuff. For him, it 118 00:05:49.379 --> 00:05:52.009 works because that's how he grew up. But as for Westerners, 119 00:05:52.060 --> 00:05:53.139 that's absolutely pointless. 120 00:05:53.939 --> 00:05:57.120 Gotcha. And what about you, Jackie? How did you get 121 00:05:57.160 --> 00:05:57.860 into meditation? 122 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:01.360 I actually started more from a scientific perspective. So I 123 00:06:01.379 --> 00:06:03.500 just thought it was so interesting, this idea of studying 124 00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:06.019 your mind. And so I really started more from reading. 125 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:08.819 I actually did read books on Buddhism and just thought 126 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.439 the whole idea of being able to, you can manage 127 00:06:11.490 --> 00:06:13.970 your mind, you can manage your thoughts. Your thoughts are 128 00:06:13.990 --> 00:06:15.889 not your own. I just thought that was so fascinating. 129 00:06:15.970 --> 00:06:17.870 So for many years, I took it very much from 130 00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:20.550 a head perspective. And it was really in my early 131 00:06:20.829 --> 00:06:22.649 20s that I went on my first retreat and started 132 00:06:22.730 --> 00:06:24.839 actually to realize, oh, this is not just something you 133 00:06:24.860 --> 00:06:27.279 think about. It's actually something that you need to practice. 134 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:29.990 What was that first retreat for you? 135 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:34.920 A Goenka retreat, which is a very intense, I don't 136 00:06:34.939 --> 00:06:35.949 know if you're familiar with it. 137 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:37.899 I am, but you should tell listeners who may not be. 138 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:38.500 Yeah. 139 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:43.329 So 10 days of silence, noble silence. So no eye contact, 140 00:06:43.430 --> 00:06:46.069 no contact at all with anybody and sitting for 10 141 00:06:46.069 --> 00:06:48.449 hours a day, which for some people sounds terrible, but 142 00:06:48.490 --> 00:06:51.069 I can just assure any listeners that it is one 143 00:06:51.089 --> 00:06:53.490 of the most amazing experiences to be able to really 144 00:06:53.689 --> 00:06:56.170 truly sit and be alone with your own mind and

145 00:06:56.209 --> 00:06:58.649 have that amazing experience. It's something I recommend to everyone. 146 00:06:58.970 --> 00:07:00.550 So you were in your 20s at the time. 147 00:07:00.569 --> 00:07:00.639 Yes. 148 00:07:00.810 --> 00:07:05.079 What kind of change did it bring about for you? 149 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.980 I mean, that's a difficult question because I think there's 150 00:07:07.060 --> 00:07:09.459 so many changes that it brings about. I think that 151 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:12.800 to start to be able to have that greater awareness 152 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.779 of the thoughts that you have, that there are choices 153 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.060 you can make about whether to take them down the 154 00:07:19.100 --> 00:07:21.139 rabbit hole that they take you down or to simply 155 00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:23.730 be able to observe them and let them go, to 156 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:28.209 recognize that Um, emotions are also just experiences that you have. 157 00:07:28.269 --> 00:07:29.889 They're not something that you have. They don't, you don't 158 00:07:29.910 --> 00:07:31.610 have to reside. They don't have to be the home 159 00:07:31.649 --> 00:07:33.410 that you reside in. They actually can be things that 160 00:07:33.430 --> 00:07:35.449 are just that you observe and that you learn from 161 00:07:35.490 --> 00:07:39.149 that you understand. So it really changed my entire, I 162 00:07:39.189 --> 00:07:42.500 would say it was transformative. It changed my relationship with my, 163 00:07:42.569 --> 00:07:45.079 with my thoughts, with my mind and just made me 164 00:07:45.139 --> 00:07:47.939 much more calm, much more relaxed and much more, I think, 165 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:50.920 reflective in terms of how I approached every situation every day, 166 00:07:51.019 --> 00:07:51.480 every moment. 167 00:07:52.259 --> 00:07:54.579 Do I detect a Canadian accent? 168 00:07:54.620 --> 00:07:57.079 You do, Dan. That's a very good ear. Yes. Did 169 00:07:57.100 --> 00:08:00.939 I say about? Something outed me. I'm not sure what 170 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:02.060 it was, but sorry. 171 00:08:02.339 --> 00:08:02.620 Where? 172 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:07.569 Sorry. Yeah, exactly. That was trying to, yes, be proud 173 00:08:07.610 --> 00:08:09.970 of my Canadian culture to apologize. Yes. 174 00:08:10.889 --> 00:08:11.509 Where in Canada? 175 00:08:11.930 --> 00:08:13.689 Originally from outside of Toronto. 176 00:08:13.970 --> 00:08:17.120 And what? were you doing at the time that you 177 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:18.879 were in your mid-20s? What was going on in your 178 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:21.160 life in your early 20s when you decided to take 179 00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:22.600 a retreat? What's your background? 180 00:08:22.699 --> 00:08:25.259 Yeah, I think that, well, for me, actually, I started 181 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:27.839 when I was 14 and my high school had a 182 00:08:27.860 --> 00:08:30.480 world religions course and

Buddhism was part of that. So 183 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:32.240 that was really, as I said, when I started just 184 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:35.600 reading a lot of books. But it wasn't really until 185 00:08:35.620 --> 00:08:37.639 I got into my 20s that I was able to 186 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:39.779 start to realize that, wait a minute, there was more 187 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:43.210 to this than that. And that was my experience. 188 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:44.909 And what is your professional training? 189 00:08:45.570 --> 00:08:48.149 My professional training is management consulting, so I was with 190 00:08:48.169 --> 00:08:50.480 Deloitte Consulting for many years. I have a background in 191 00:08:50.509 --> 00:08:54.419 organizational behavior, a master's in that. And it's one of 192 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:56.639 the things I just love. I just feel so passionate 193 00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:00.759 about helping organizations to enhance performance, and specifically my specialization 194 00:09:00.820 --> 00:09:03.919 is managing change. And for me, for many years, I 195 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:08.019 kept my meditation practice a secret because in Deloitte Consulting, 196 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:12.019 the fast-paced world of high-pressure consulting environment, The last thing 197 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:14.039 that I was going to tell anybody was that I 198 00:09:14.059 --> 00:09:16.899 like to sit on an uncomfortable cushion for extended periods 199 00:09:16.950 --> 00:09:19.029 of time and count my breaths. That was just never 200 00:09:19.129 --> 00:09:22.169 going to happen. And so it really took me a 201 00:09:22.190 --> 00:09:24.850 long time. For me, I talk about it as coming 202 00:09:24.870 --> 00:09:29.029 out of the closet as a mindfulness practitioner because I 203 00:09:29.070 --> 00:09:32.509 just realized the incredible benefit when you look at organizations 204 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:35.429 and how they manage change. The idea of being able 205 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.460 to integrate these practices into that environment is so powerful. 206 00:09:40.059 --> 00:09:42.620 But it's really– and again, I really respect people like 207 00:09:42.659 --> 00:09:45.659 yourself and others who have helped all of us be 208 00:09:45.710 --> 00:09:48.350 able to bring these into daily work life. And for us, 209 00:09:48.409 --> 00:09:50.610 our passion is bringing them into daily organizational life. 210 00:09:51.389 --> 00:09:53.190 And when you say us, what are you referring to? 211 00:09:53.389 --> 00:09:54.789 Potential Project. That's what we do. 212 00:09:54.889 --> 00:09:55.250 Tell us. 213 00:09:56.230 --> 00:09:57.490 What is the Potential Project? 214 00:09:58.250 --> 00:09:58.629 Rasmus? 215 00:10:00.220 --> 00:10:05.379 Potential Project is a global leadership organizational change and research firm. 216 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:08.960 So what we do is we're training basically leaders and 217 00:10:08.980 --> 00:10:12.279 employees in large organizations like Google and Microsoft and so 218 00:10:12.379 --> 00:10:16.860 on in becoming more clear-minded, focused, and calm. So basically 219 00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:20.289 mindfulness training for the corporate world. We've been doing this 220 00:10:20.309 --> 00:10:25.019 for about 12 years now and been training 170,000 people now. 221 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:29.860 It's a pretty extensive network of around 250 trainers around 222 00:10:29.899 --> 00:10:32.700 the world that is doing this work. Yeah, and our 223 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:35.980 mission is very simply to co-create a more peaceful, more 224 00:10:36.019 --> 00:10:40.340 kind world by helping people to have more calm, more focused, 225 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:41.960 and more kind minds, basically. 226 00:10:42.179 --> 00:10:46.019 How does sitting on a cushion or in a chair 227 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.000 or whatever... have any impact at all on the way 228 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:51.299 a corporation works? 229 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:55.299 Oh, it has everything to say about that. So what 230 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:58.769 we see today is that people are completely living in 231 00:10:58.789 --> 00:11:00.850 what we call a paid reality. They're under pressure. They're 232 00:11:00.889 --> 00:11:03.710 always on information overload and distracted. And as a result 233 00:11:03.750 --> 00:11:05.889 of that, we're basically losing our ability to pay attention. 234 00:11:06.009 --> 00:11:09.240 We just see from a research perspective that our ability 235 00:11:09.250 --> 00:11:11.620 to be focused is really declining. And that means people 236 00:11:11.659 --> 00:11:14.379 are running around like headless chicken and not really doing 237 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.000 what is most important. but just doing everything that calls 238 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:20.080 for their attention. And mindfulness is the opposite of that. 239 00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:22.379 It is the ability of managing our attention to really 240 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.659 be focused on what is most important right now. And 241 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:28.480 that helps, obviously, in performance and productivity, which is what 242 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.840 the company wants. But it also helps, like you've experienced 243 00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:34.480 from your own life, it helps to settle us and 244 00:11:34.539 --> 00:11:37.919 find more calm, more peace, and therefore more happiness, whether 245 00:11:37.990 --> 00:11:40.889 that's 10%, more or less, doesn't matter. But people just 246 00:11:40.929 --> 00:11:41.570 become happier. 247 00:11:42.309 --> 00:11:47.259 You know, I have done some meditation and I definitely 248 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:49.750 agree it's helped, but I still even just in the 249 00:11:49.779 --> 00:11:53.370 last couple of days feel overwhelmed and confused and like 250 00:11:53.470 --> 00:11:56.610 not sure what I should be focusing on and like 251 00:11:56.690 -->

00:11:58.570 I have too many ideas and I'm running them in 252 00:11:58.750 --> 00:12:00.950 too many different directions. So it's not a panacea. 253 00:12:01.269 --> 00:12:05.059 No, definitely not. There's no silver bullet around meditation. I 254 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:08.139 think meditation helps if we do the practice. If we don't, 255 00:12:08.179 --> 00:12:10.679 it doesn't help. Knowing about it doesn't help. Reading about 256 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:13.379 it doesn't help. Doing the practice helps. doesn't solve all 257 00:12:13.419 --> 00:12:16.580 problems it solves some and on a foundational level it 258 00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:20.230 helps us to be more calm focused and centered but 259 00:12:20.250 --> 00:12:21.889 we also need to work on how we live our 260 00:12:21.929 --> 00:12:24.370 lives obviously and that's what we have specialized in how 261 00:12:24.409 --> 00:12:29.350 do we help people in the corporates to embed the 262 00:12:29.389 --> 00:12:32.190 practice of mindfulness into how they deal with emails how 263 00:12:32.230 --> 00:12:35.470 they conduct their meetings how they set their priorities and 264 00:12:35.529 --> 00:12:37.610 how they get good sleep and how they make sure 265 00:12:37.629 --> 00:12:40.720 to have better work-life balance So it's not just sitting 266 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:43.519 for 10 or 20 minutes a day. It's also about 267 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:48.009 how you utilize those techniques of mastering the mind into 268 00:12:48.049 --> 00:12:48.669 everything you do. 269 00:12:48.850 --> 00:12:50.389 I actually think that that may be one of the 270 00:12:50.470 --> 00:12:52.909 areas where I have a shortcoming in my practice is 271 00:12:52.990 --> 00:12:55.070 that I do the practice, but I'm not sure I 272 00:12:55.450 --> 00:12:57.620 really integrate it into a lot of things, which is 273 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:00.159 embarrassing to admit. So let's talk about some of them. 274 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:02.159 How can you be mindful on your email? 275 00:13:03.100 --> 00:13:04.820 Well, I think the first thing is just be aware 276 00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:07.480 that at different times in the day, it's not always 277 00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:09.179 best to do email. So one of the things that 278 00:13:09.220 --> 00:13:11.320 we know is that first thing in the morning, if 279 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:14.110 you've had a good night's sleep, is actually when hopefully 280 00:13:14.129 --> 00:13:17.230 you have the most creative, most expansive mind. And if 281 00:13:17.269 --> 00:13:19.970 you download your email, which too many people do first 282 00:13:19.990 --> 00:13:22.230 thing in the morning, checking it on their phone, you're 283 00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:25.480 basically dumping a whole bunch of clutter in a mind 284 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:28.860 that actually potentially has really good space to solve creative problems. 285 00:13:29.460 --> 00:13:31.830 So just simply looking at when do you check your

286 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:33.870 email through the day would actually be just a simple 287 00:13:33.909 --> 00:13:35.850 way to be more mindful and create less clutter. 288 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:41.809 I'm fascinated by this. For me as a newsman, I 289 00:13:41.889 --> 00:13:45.600 need to– I feel, but maybe I'm wrong, that when 290 00:13:45.649 --> 00:13:47.159 I wake up in the morning, I need to find 291 00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:50.700 out what happened overnight, any sort of missiles from the boss. 292 00:13:50.779 --> 00:13:52.919 Not that my boss sends that many missiles, but whatever. 293 00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:56.940 It seems to me like I feel this pressure to 294 00:13:57.500 --> 00:14:01.039 check in. check the news, make sure that no emergency 295 00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:04.279 has broken out in my, any of my professional endeavors 296 00:14:04.299 --> 00:14:06.840 or anything like that. But you're saying, I mean, do 297 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:08.960 you think it would be responsible for me to say, no, 298 00:14:08.980 --> 00:14:11.110 you know, maybe instead the first thing I should do 299 00:14:11.259 --> 00:14:14.350 is pick up the big creative project I'm working on 300 00:14:14.389 --> 00:14:15.809 and focus on that for a couple of minutes. 301 00:14:16.110 --> 00:14:18.590 Yeah, I, well, and I think every job is different. 302 00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:21.610 Of course, you know, in news that may be appropriate 303 00:14:21.629 --> 00:14:23.309 that you need to check, but I mean, could you 304 00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:25.879 wait like maybe the first hour and not check it 305 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.500 for the first hour? To be able to do some 306 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:30.539 other things. I mean, just from a mind perspective, this 307 00:14:30.580 --> 00:14:33.279 is about understanding our mind and making sure that we 308 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.039 use it to the best of our ability. And honestly, 309 00:14:36.620 --> 00:14:38.250 checking your emails first thing in the morning, it may 310 00:14:38.259 --> 00:14:41.149 be necessary, but it is creating clutter. It's cluttering that 311 00:14:41.490 --> 00:14:42.769 potentially spacious open mind. 312 00:14:42.950 --> 00:14:47.809 I've never spent a happy hour or two checking and 313 00:14:47.850 --> 00:14:48.330 answering emails. 314 00:14:48.690 --> 00:14:49.269 Exactly. 315 00:14:49.289 --> 00:14:50.669 Good awareness. 316 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:52.799 And have you ever been more creative from checking emails? 317 00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:52.879 No. 318 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:55.259 Like, is it ever bringing fantastic ideas, right? 319 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:55.539 No. 320 00:14:55.659 --> 00:14:58.090 It's a complete... We drain on our creativity and in 321 00:14:58.570 --> 00:15:01.610 many ways our performance. And when we look at emails 322 00:15:01.669 --> 00:15:05.049 in general, you know, 90% of it is rubbish and 323 00:15:05.090 --> 00:15:07.470 we really don't need to attend to it. And I 324 00:15:07.490 --> 00:15:09.590 know that sounds radical, but it's really true. If you 325 00:15:09.629 --> 00:15:11.429 go back and check the emails, like if you go 326 00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:13.309 on a vacation for a week and you come back, 327 00:15:13.889 --> 00:15:16.750 how much of that can you just purge? Because it's redundant. 328 00:15:16.870 --> 00:15:19.250 It has been taken care of even without your interference. 329 00:15:20.309 --> 00:15:23.809 Yeah, well, also at ABC News, there's an enormous amount 330 00:15:23.830 --> 00:15:26.230 of email around the news events of the day. And 331 00:15:26.250 --> 00:15:31.529 I also am on a regrettable but tremendous amount of 332 00:15:33.340 --> 00:15:36.299 spam PR type stuff. So I have a lot of 333 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:38.700 easy pruning I could do. But there are still– I 334 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.860 mean I helped to– I'm a co-founder of a business. 335 00:15:41.019 --> 00:15:44.799 I host a couple of shows here. So there are 336 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.679 things I do have to pay attention. And I have 337 00:15:47.710 --> 00:15:51.120 creative projects going with various– people in the building and 338 00:15:51.129 --> 00:15:53.320 I need to nurture them and make sure I don't 339 00:15:53.379 --> 00:15:56.159 miss stuff. But it's a pain in the butt. 340 00:15:56.539 --> 00:15:58.340 But do you need to pay attention first thing in 341 00:15:58.379 --> 00:15:58.759 the morning? 342 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.519 Well, I actually– That's the challenge. That's why I'm really– 343 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.080 that's why I honed in on that because I agree 344 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.100 first thing in the morning is, in my experience, when 345 00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:12.470 it's the most fertile territory mentally. And I also agree 346 00:16:12.529 --> 00:16:15.870 that getting sucked into the minutia of whatever on your 347 00:16:15.929 --> 00:16:22.450 email is– Like kryptonite for your creative capacity. Correct. So 348 00:16:22.509 --> 00:16:26.019 that seems like a problematic move I've been making and 349 00:16:26.059 --> 00:16:28.080 maybe I need to rethink it. That's why I hopped 350 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:28.340 on that. 351 00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:30.539 Well, and the other aspect of it is looking at 352 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:32.940 just notifications. I mean, one of the things that we 353 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.789 know is every time we get a pop-up notification, whether 354 00:16:35.830 --> 00:16:38.450 it's email or text or whatever it might be, it's 355 00:16:38.470 --> 00:16:40.590 a distraction for the mind that takes us away from 356 00:16:40.629 --> 00:16:43.419 whatever we were doing. And one of the things is 357 00:16:43.460 --> 00:16:46.559 just to really look at are those notifications actually valuable 358 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:49.370 for you? Do you have your email like Outlook open 359 00:16:49.409 --> 00:16:51.370 all the time and

it's distracting you from other work? 360 00:16:51.389 --> 00:16:51.679 I do. 361 00:16:51.690 --> 00:16:52.029 And yes. 362 00:16:52.110 --> 00:16:54.509 Then maybe not because, I mean, seriously. 363 00:16:54.529 --> 00:16:55.570 Just shut it down. 364 00:16:55.629 --> 00:16:58.139 Just shut it down and just decide when are you 365 00:16:58.279 --> 00:16:59.379 actually going to check your email. 366 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:00.899 You're talking about like when you're on your desktop. 367 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:02.500 When you're on your desktop, exactly. 368 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.160 On your phone for that matter. A real cool study 369 00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:08.519 from Stanford came out a few years ago finding that 370 00:17:08.619 --> 00:17:11.539 the more often we let ourselves distract by incoming messages 371 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.119 because of the pings or the pongs or the notifications 372 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.400 coming up, the more our prefrontal cortex will shrink. And 373 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:21.039 the prefrontal cortex is associated with our ability to actually 374 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:24.289 be focused and our executive function. So having a thinner 375 00:17:24.329 --> 00:17:26.990 prefrontal cortex is really a challenge in terms of living 376 00:17:27.049 --> 00:17:27.829 a meaningful life. 377 00:17:28.210 --> 00:17:30.730 I agree there are structural things you can do like 378 00:17:30.769 --> 00:17:34.210 turning off the But then there's also, I notice, a 379 00:17:34.250 --> 00:17:37.079 real tick that if I'm working on something creative and 380 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.839 I hit a tough spot, I immediately want to reach 381 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:44.200 for Instagram or email or some dopamine hit. 382 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.759 Yes, exactly. And I think that's habit. And it's also, 383 00:17:47.779 --> 00:17:50.920 I think it's just like any quick fix, right? It's 384 00:17:51.019 --> 00:17:53.529 like reaching for a chocolate bar. And I think that 385 00:17:53.569 --> 00:17:56.710 the invitation is, does that really help you? If it does, great. 386 00:17:56.789 --> 00:17:58.809 I mean, maybe that does help you get over that 387 00:17:58.890 --> 00:18:01.859 creative thing. Yeah, it probably does, and it probably just 388 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:05.759 sucks you in to a distraction fest, which is wonderful 389 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.859 for the mind because the mind loves tapping into novelty 390 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:14.109 and something new. But what could be more beneficial is 391 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.490 going for a walk, getting some space, taking a performance break, 392 00:18:17.609 --> 00:18:20.569 or maybe doing one minute of mindfulness practice just to 393 00:18:20.609 --> 00:18:22.190 be able to clear the clutter because that's what you 394 00:18:22.210 --> 00:18:23.490 really need, a spacious mind. 395 00:18:23.670 --> 00:18:27.730 I hate to be the annoying person. who espouses taking 396 00:18:27.769 --> 00:18:33.170 a walk or meditating in those moments. But the fact 397 00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:36.809 of the matter is now that I have a marginally 398 00:18:37.109 --> 00:18:42.690 improved self-awareness through meditation, I notice that when I step outside, 399 00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:47.799 all the baloney that I was worried about, some significant 400 00:18:47.890 --> 00:18:49.130 percentage of it evaporates. 401 00:18:49.230 --> 00:18:49.730 Exactly. 402 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:52.819 And I'm seeing things more clearly in a different way 403 00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:55.299 with a different perspective. Or if I sit and meditate, 404 00:18:55.789 --> 00:18:58.009 I may– I found this when I was writing my 405 00:18:58.069 --> 00:19:00.289 last book and I was really miserable the whole time. 406 00:19:00.509 --> 00:19:03.769 And occasionally I would pull away and just meditate, which 407 00:19:03.930 --> 00:19:08.089 felt counterintuitive. But often the problem that I was trying 408 00:19:08.109 --> 00:19:10.569 to solve, I would get answers, not necessarily the answers 409 00:19:10.609 --> 00:19:13.599 I was looking for. And sometimes they were stupid. But 410 00:19:14.019 --> 00:19:16.960 sometimes there was something really there. But it was certainly 411 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:20.660 a geyser of new ideas that were not available to 412 00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:23.740 me when I was standing there. Intermittently pounding my head 413 00:19:23.779 --> 00:19:26.019 against the computer screen and checking social media. 414 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:27.359 Exactly. Exactly. 415 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:29.559 Okay. 416 00:19:29.619 --> 00:19:31.759 This is a challenge that I'm going to have to tackle. 417 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.509 This sounds like an intervention for us, Dan. This is exciting. 418 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:38.750 What else can we help you with? Well, I'm prepared 419 00:19:38.849 --> 00:19:40.430 to continue to ask because I'm going to use this 420 00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:43.910 podcast to my own personal benefit. And if you don't 421 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:47.950 want to listen, no, you should listen. What else? Sleep 422 00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:49.930 was the other thing you mentioned in terms of health. 423 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:50.400 People. 424 00:19:50.539 --> 00:19:54.220 No, actually, before I get to sleep, meetings. I think 425 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.980 this is another area where I don't do a good 426 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:59.079 job of bringing mindfulness to the table. I often find 427 00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:01.890 that's me at my worst in meetings, especially if we're 428 00:20:02.609 --> 00:20:07.549 discussing a creative project that I'm trying to push forward 429 00:20:07.609 --> 00:20:10.789 and I notice that I'm impatient with other people or 430 00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:13.930 if they're not fully understanding everything I have in my head, 431 00:20:13.990 --> 00:20:16.450 I can't believe how

dumb they are. Of course, I 432 00:20:16.470 --> 00:20:19.750 haven't even explained it to them. So how does one 433 00:20:19.809 --> 00:20:21.819 bring the practice into meetings? 434 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.140 The first thing is to be prepared for the meeting. 435 00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:28.259 What often happens in many organizations is that we have 436 00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:31.359 back-to-back meetings, meaning we're kind of a few minutes late 437 00:20:31.420 --> 00:20:34.339 for after one meeting, so a meeting runs over. meaning 438 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:36.339 we'll be too late for the next meeting, meaning we're 439 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.480 going to enter that meeting in the 15 first minutes. 440 00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:41.059 We're just going to be focused on wrapping up what 441 00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:43.619 happened in the previous meetings. We're constantly behind from a 442 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.200 mental point of view. So a really practical thing is 443 00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:49.160 to always end meetings five minutes before time. And like 444 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.720 in your outlook, always schedule so that you have at 445 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.019 least five minutes of transition time. And what you do 446 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:57.309 in that transition time is you basically prepare yourself mentally. 447 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.829 So whether you're walking to another meeting room or whether 448 00:21:00.869 --> 00:21:03.150 you're just sitting and waiting for a conference call or 449 00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:06.519 a phone call, Rather than checking Instagram or emails or 450 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.480 Facebook or whatever, just take one minute or even just 451 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.839 30 seconds to just sit there and just breathe. Just 452 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.230 take a short pause whereby your mind settles a little bit, 453 00:21:15.869 --> 00:21:17.670 and your mind will be more clear for the next meeting. 454 00:21:17.690 --> 00:21:20.710 A couple of years ago, I started volunteering in a hospice, 455 00:21:21.390 --> 00:21:26.009 and I was trained by a pair of Zen Buddhist 456 00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:28.779 priests who have actually been on this podcast before, one 457 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:33.180 of our early podcasts with Zen. chodo and koshin they're 458 00:21:33.220 --> 00:21:36.440 married zen buddhist priests and they run this program trains 459 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.140 people how to be hospice care providers and they had 460 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:41.920 this piece of advice they gave me that was great 461 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:45.769 advice that i haven't utterly failed to apply in any 462 00:21:45.809 --> 00:21:48.630 meaningful way in my actual life but when you're going 463 00:21:48.670 --> 00:21:52.190 from room to room they say they said koshin said 464 00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:55.730 that often we are like these huge macy's day parade 465 00:21:55.930 --> 00:21:58.859 floats like our head is the whole thing And we're 466 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:00.640 not in any way connected to our body. And we're 467 00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:03.500 just kind of all head floating from meeting to meeting 468 00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:05.420 and just bringing with the stuff from the last meeting 469 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:08.900 into the next meeting. And they basically said, just make 470 00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:12.769 a little tiny imperceptible ritual of perhaps just touching the 471 00:22:12.809 --> 00:22:16.650 doorframe as you're going from hospice bed to hospice bed, 472 00:22:16.750 --> 00:22:19.190 going from room to room to talk to these residents 473 00:22:19.829 --> 00:22:24.579 to reset, to just remind the mind that this is 474 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.640 a new interaction here. And I noticed even yesterday I 475 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:31.809 went into this one meeting here at ABC. The culture 476 00:22:31.890 --> 00:22:34.490 is often such that even we often have a lot 477 00:22:34.509 --> 00:22:36.710 of unscheduled meetings like we got to catch this one 478 00:22:36.849 --> 00:22:39.470 editor at one point. And there's one senior producer at 479 00:22:39.529 --> 00:22:42.009 one point to get her to sign off on our plan. 480 00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:44.950 And we've got five minutes and she's half checking her email. 481 00:22:44.990 --> 00:22:47.519 And so you're kind of rushed. And I didn't take 482 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:51.619 any reset. I just came barreling into it. And, you know, 483 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:54.339 it was fine, but didn't I felt like I didn't. 484 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:56.680 conduct myself the way I would have liked to have 485 00:22:56.700 --> 00:23:00.369 conducted myself. And anyway, that was a word salad there, 486 00:23:00.430 --> 00:23:01.710 but I don't know if you want to react. 487 00:23:01.769 --> 00:23:03.589 Well, I think, I think Dan, first of all, it's 488 00:23:03.609 --> 00:23:05.849 great awareness, right? In terms of, and I think that's 489 00:23:05.910 --> 00:23:07.430 one of the things, the other things that the practice 490 00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:09.690 gives us is it gives us an awareness. Am I 491 00:23:09.750 --> 00:23:11.349 in the right state of mind to be having this 492 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:13.809 meeting right now? Because if I'm not like, for example, 493 00:23:13.849 --> 00:23:16.799 especially if you're, you know, trying to convince something, somebody 494 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.730 of something, Or maybe if you're giving somebody feedback, like 495 00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:21.950 you really need to check in to make sure, am 496 00:23:22.049 --> 00:23:23.930 I in the right state of mind to be having 497 00:23:24.009 --> 00:23:26.670 this important discussion? But I think the other thing that 498 00:23:26.690 --> 00:23:28.009 you point out, and this is one of the things 499 00:23:28.049 --> 00:23:30.710 that we look at is, of course, organizations aren't just 500

00:23:30.789 --> 00:23:34.519 about individuals. They're individuals working within a collective, within a culture. 501 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.259 And what we really look at is not just about 502 00:23:37.339 --> 00:23:39.599 you walking in with the right frame of mind to 503 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:41.799 be able to have the most effective meeting. But what 504 00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:44.220 about your colleagues? You know, like you say, like if 505 00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:47.000 you're rushing and grabbing people on the fly and How 506 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.799 really truly prepared is that producer to have that conversation? Now, 507 00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:53.059 you said it went well, but I mean, are you 508 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:55.660 actually being kind of grabbing the person on the run? 509 00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.240 If it's a really important discussion, should you give her 510 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.619 a chance to be able to clear her clutter to 511 00:24:01.660 --> 00:24:03.920 maybe have some time to make sure she's fully prepared? 512 00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:06.859 Because if she's not in the right mind state, your 513 00:24:06.940 --> 00:24:08.900 chance of being successful is diminished. 514 00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.740 Yes, I think that's absolutely correct. It would require a 515 00:24:12.819 --> 00:24:15.880 big cultural shift here that's much more systemic than I 516 00:24:16.329 --> 00:24:20.250 And personally capable for, because if I hadn't cluttered this 517 00:24:20.289 --> 00:24:21.910 woman's mind, somebody else would have. 518 00:24:21.930 --> 00:24:22.130 Yes. 519 00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:27.220 So it's not like this was some unique lightning bolt. 520 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.880 It's just that her day is a series of lightning bolts. 521 00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:35.049 And so you just, but we can't progress unless we 522 00:24:35.069 --> 00:24:37.349 get her sign off. And so it's, It's just a 523 00:24:37.369 --> 00:24:38.670 complicated environment here. 524 00:24:38.789 --> 00:24:41.410 But I think that the question that we would have 525 00:24:41.569 --> 00:24:45.210 is not a radical change overnight, but are there small 526 00:24:45.250 --> 00:24:48.109 ways from a cultural perspective? Because if you know that 527 00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:50.730 everybody is walking around with cluttered minds and Macy Day 528 00:24:50.769 --> 00:24:55.609 Parade's big inflated balloons over their heads, is that the 529 00:24:55.650 --> 00:24:59.069 most effective way to operate? And could having just maybe 530 00:24:59.269 --> 00:25:04.599 a little integrating– drips of mindfulness, drips of mindfulness practice, 531 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:07.420 drips of being able to help people clear the clutter, 532 00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:10.799 touch the wall. Everybody do that, just a little bit more, 533 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:14.480 10% maybe, maybe even only 5%. But would that help 534 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:18.380 you in terms of being more effective, being less stressed, collectively, 535 00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:21.880 maybe even enhance your performance, enhance your creativity, enhance your output? 536 00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:24.140 What are the other drips of mindfulness that would help 537 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:28.079 in terms of how we interact face-to-face in our meetings 538 00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:33.170 in a professional environment? We've talked about resetting before a meeting, 539 00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:36.029 either on a walk or with a 30-second sit in 540 00:25:36.069 --> 00:25:38.690 the room. We've talked about the Chodo and Koshin thing 541 00:25:38.710 --> 00:25:41.150 of touching the doorframe and being aware that you have 542 00:25:41.190 --> 00:25:44.730 the Macy's Day proclivity. What are other things that we 543 00:25:44.769 --> 00:25:47.430 could maybe think about doing based on our meditation practices 544 00:25:47.470 --> 00:25:48.910 that would make us more effective in meetings? 545 00:25:50.470 --> 00:25:52.380 I would say silencing our mind as much as we 546 00:25:52.390 --> 00:25:54.410 can because, as you say, when we come with that 547 00:25:54.470 --> 00:25:56.900 big head, that head is so full and it's so cluttered, 548 00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:00.240 it's so basically confused. that we don't necessarily see what 549 00:26:00.380 --> 00:26:04.980 is most important in this conversation. So taking that time 550 00:26:05.049 --> 00:26:07.190 to prepare, but then when you're in it, actually take 551 00:26:07.230 --> 00:26:09.710 time to listen and not listen to your inner voice, 552 00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:12.650 but listen to what's going on out there and see 553 00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:15.430 what emerges from that. If we try to come into 554 00:26:15.450 --> 00:26:18.700 a meeting always trying to solve things, we don't solve 555 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:20.759 a lot because we're so busy trying to solve that 556 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:23.619 our rational mind is just running amok. And often when 557 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.240 we try to just slow that down a little bit, 558 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:29.970 things go much faster. We try to implement this in Carlsberg, 559 00:26:29.990 --> 00:26:32.369 where we do this with all of our clients, basically. Carlsberg. 560 00:26:32.769 --> 00:26:35.630 The beer company? Yeah, the beer company. Interesting. Yeah, they 561 00:26:35.650 --> 00:26:38.250 do good work, obviously, and the beer company, interesting. But 562 00:26:38.269 --> 00:26:40.470 they basically started doing this thing of taking a one-minute 563 00:26:40.490 --> 00:26:44.309 pause and being more attentive to listening during the meeting 564 00:26:44.410 --> 00:26:48.369 as teams. And they wanted to measure the effects of that. 565 00:26:48.490 --> 00:26:50.710 And they actually found that they reduced the meeting time 566 00:26:50.730 --> 00:26:56.410 with 35%. That's significant return on investment for taking one 567 00:26:56.529

--> 00:26:59.190 minute of break at the beginning of each meeting. And 568 00:26:59.210 --> 00:27:01.849 it was not a cultural change. Not a meditating. They 569 00:27:01.890 --> 00:27:03.789 just said, okay, now we'll just for one minute, we 570 00:27:03.849 --> 00:27:06.809 won't check our devices and we won't have conversations. We'll 571 00:27:06.829 --> 00:27:08.730 just be present in the room. That's all they said. 572 00:27:09.450 --> 00:27:13.119 And it wasn't like a big cultural change, no big 573 00:27:13.170 --> 00:27:16.279 reasons why. They just did it and then they measured 574 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:16.720 what it is. 575 00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:19.559 You know what's crazy? I mean, I'm a co-founder of 576 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.940 a company, 10% Happier. We don't do this stuff. 577 00:27:22.980 --> 00:27:24.700 That's a great example, yeah. 578 00:27:24.859 --> 00:27:26.440 So we should be doing this stuff. 579 00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:27.079 Yeah, totally, yeah. 580 00:27:27.140 --> 00:27:31.420 I mean although having said that, sometimes when I'm– our 581 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:34.190 headquarters are in Boston. Sometimes when I'm there, I'll say, hey, guys, 582 00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:36.809 can we do a guided meditation? And always everybody is 583 00:27:36.829 --> 00:27:39.150 a little surprised that I've suggested that. But it's not 584 00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:42.549 culturally weird. Everybody is psyched to do it. Whereas here 585 00:27:42.569 --> 00:27:44.289 at ABC, I think it would be a little. 586 00:27:44.259 --> 00:27:45.759 But I think, Dan, you don't have to call it 587 00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:46.700 a guided meditation. 588 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:47.220 No, I know you don't. 589 00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:49.420 You can call it whatever makes sense in that culture. 590 00:27:49.460 --> 00:27:51.240 Like one of the things, and what we find is 591 00:27:51.309 --> 00:27:53.190 one of the things we just say, hey, you know, 592 00:27:53.230 --> 00:27:55.130 we're all running back to back. I'm sure you just 593 00:27:55.170 --> 00:27:57.730 came from somewhere. Would everybody like just a minute to 594 00:27:57.750 --> 00:28:01.230 just settle in? That's it. Like just make it really simple. 595 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:05.190 And most people say, okay. Thank you. That is so nice. 596 00:28:05.609 --> 00:28:07.599 Just take a moment and just to be able to 597 00:28:07.650 --> 00:28:10.599 allow yourself to fully arrive. You're here physically, but just 598 00:28:10.660 --> 00:28:14.240 allow yourself to arrive mentally or whatever works, the language, 599 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.440 the culture that makes sense. But another thing that I 600 00:28:17.500 --> 00:28:20.240 think is really important in terms of organizations and cultures 601 00:28:20.289 --> 00:28:22.410 and meetings, but it's also true just in general, is 602 00:28:22.450 --> 00:28:25.210 to really look at your priorities. I think that too 603 00:28:25.269 --> 00:28:27.809 many people, the reason why their heads are so cluttered 604 00:28:27.869 --> 00:28:30.900 is because They've got too many things that are top priorities. 605 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.819 And we know from a mind perspective that we cannot. 606 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:34.579 That's my problem. 607 00:28:34.779 --> 00:28:35.819 Okay. Well, there. Yeah. 608 00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:36.660 Go on. 609 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:37.539 No, no, no. 610 00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:38.039 Okay. 611 00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:41.940 Well, it's just that we can't handle from a mental perspective, 612 00:28:41.980 --> 00:28:46.140 you know, 20, 30 top priorities. That's just impossible. And 613 00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:48.640 that makes us overwhelmed because we have this list of 614 00:28:48.700 --> 00:28:50.789 all these things that we really, really, really, really need 615 00:28:50.829 --> 00:28:53.390 to do. And we really, really, really can't because we really, really, 616 00:28:53.410 --> 00:28:56.230 really don't have enough time or enough headspace to be 617 00:28:56.250 --> 00:28:58.569 able to effectively get them done. So one of the 618 00:28:58.630 --> 00:29:01.349 things is just to be able to be really disciplined 619 00:29:01.369 --> 00:29:04.230 with yourself and say, okay, you've got only so many 620 00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:06.920 hours in the day. What truly are your two or 621 00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:10.220 three top priorities? When are you actually going to do them? 622 00:29:10.299 --> 00:29:12.640 So schedule those into your day to make sure that 623 00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:15.799 you've got space to actually get those done. And the 624 00:29:15.859 --> 00:29:19.150 key thing is those other, however many they are, seven, 625 00:29:19.369 --> 00:29:22.839 you know, 10, 20 things. Maybe you'll get to them, 626 00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:25.849 but don't think about them because if you're thinking about 627 00:29:25.869 --> 00:29:27.829 the things that you can't get done today, you're just 628 00:29:27.869 --> 00:29:30.970 distracting yourself from– you're taking away from the time that 629 00:29:31.009 --> 00:29:33.930 you actually can do the things that realistically you can 630 00:29:33.970 --> 00:29:35.529 get done and that you really need to get done. 631 00:29:36.049 --> 00:29:38.269 So the ability to be able to let go of 632 00:29:38.650 --> 00:29:41.950 priorities– and I'm putting air quotes on that, priorities that 633 00:29:41.970 --> 00:29:45.170 you really have to be disciplined about saying you can't 634 00:29:45.190 --> 00:29:47.339 get done today is such a great way to be 635 00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:49.039 able to have more focus and more clarity. 636 00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:51.119 If somebody needed this in their life, and I have 637 00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:53.700 a friend who needs this in his life, his initials 638 00:29:53.779 --> 00:29:59.690 are Dan Harris. How would you go about implementing what 639 00:29:59.730 --> 00:30:02.349

you just described, which sounds very sane. 640 00:30:03.529 --> 00:30:06.369 Well, the way that we work with individuals and organizations 641 00:30:06.450 --> 00:30:09.509 is through a series of interventions. So a series of 642 00:30:09.569 --> 00:30:12.650 sessions like this, perhaps, is just talking about, you know, 643 00:30:12.710 --> 00:30:14.490 tell me about your daily life. Tell me about the 644 00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:17.920 challenges that you face from a mental perspective and looking 645 00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:20.539 for ways to not only do the 10 minutes of training, 646 00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:23.859 which we do have, and we make that very simple and, again, 647 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:27.680 with nothing fancy, just simple focusing on the breath, But 648 00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.140 more importantly– well, I would say not more importantly is 649 00:30:30.569 --> 00:30:34.170 and then how can we apply that to daily work life? 650 00:30:34.289 --> 00:30:36.069 And then we just walk through what are the things 651 00:30:36.089 --> 00:30:38.470 that you do every day and how would applying a 652 00:30:38.490 --> 00:30:40.650 little bit more focus, a little bit more calm, a 653 00:30:40.670 --> 00:30:43.650 little bit more clarity, how would that help you? And just, again, 654 00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:45.950 each week looking– because we also know that the other 655 00:30:45.970 --> 00:30:48.150 thing is we know that we don't change our habits 656 00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:50.839 all in one shot. So the idea is to have 657 00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:53.759 a series of short, sharp interventions where we could say, okay, 658 00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.880 this week, Dan, what would be– okay, so we've had 659 00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:58.420 this conversation about e-mails. What are you going to commit 660 00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:00.440 to do next week? And then next week we can 661 00:31:00.460 --> 00:31:02.589 touch base and follow up and look at maybe next 662 00:31:02.630 --> 00:31:05.569 week we'll focus on meetings. So just have a series 663 00:31:05.910 --> 00:31:10.029 of giving you easy things to do, tangible, practical, that 664 00:31:10.049 --> 00:31:12.890 will actually hopefully save you time and energy and help 665 00:31:12.910 --> 00:31:17.849 you be more effective, but over a series of different interventions. Gotcha. 666 00:31:18.809 --> 00:31:19.089 Sleep. 667 00:31:19.750 --> 00:31:25.079 You mentioned sleep. I haven't seen any evidence that meditation 668 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.869 actually helps with sleep. But maybe it does. Maybe the 669 00:31:27.890 --> 00:31:30.910 science just isn't good enough. But riff if you would. 670 00:31:31.809 --> 00:31:34.569 Yeah, so there's been research on this. Susan Carlson from, 671 00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:37.480 I think she's from Calgary. I can't remember. Anyway, a 672 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.319 researcher has done research on sleep and mindfulness, specifically finding 673 00:31:41.359

--> 00:31:45.140 that it improves sleep quality on the Pittsburgh Sleep Quality Index, 674 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:47.319 which is seven parts of sleep, like how quick do 675 00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:49.160 you fall asleep, how deep does you sleep, how often 676 00:31:49.180 --> 00:31:51.200 do you wake up, and so on. On average, it 677 00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:55.779 improves all of those on 37%. It's pretty significant. I 678 00:31:55.819 --> 00:32:00.039 think the reason for that is mindfulness helps to calm 679 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:03.720 the mind and when we have sleep challenges, it's not 680 00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:05.720 the body that is the problem, it's the mind that 681 00:32:05.819 --> 00:32:10.079 keeps us busy obviously. So what we recommend for sleep 682 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:12.769 is if you want to avoid sleep drugs and so on, 683 00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:15.789 just to do a few minutes of mindfulness practice just 684 00:32:15.829 --> 00:32:18.130 before you go to bed so that you can let 685 00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:21.089 go of all the unresolved issues from the day and 686 00:32:21.130 --> 00:32:23.000 not having to deal with them in a in a 687 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:27.819 half-unconscious state, in sleep state, basically. That's the first thing. 688 00:32:28.579 --> 00:32:30.839 Do a bit of mindfulness. And the way you lie 689 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.599 down on your bed, lie down on your back and 690 00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:36.940 just breathe out, relax, breathe out, relax. Every time you 691 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.940 breathe out, just relax. And the moment you start to 692 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.359 fall asleep, you turn on your side, so you make 693 00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:44.849 a conscious shift between the actual practice of mindfulness and 694 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:48.269 mindful relaxation to then falling asleep. So that's a really 695 00:32:48.309 --> 00:32:50.170 important point. And then when you wake up at night, 696 00:32:50.210 --> 00:32:53.009 which some people do and can't fall asleep again, You 697 00:32:53.029 --> 00:32:55.650 just repeat this pattern. So it's pretty simple. 698 00:32:56.170 --> 00:32:58.970 There's also some more radical things about sleep. If you 699 00:32:59.009 --> 00:33:00.829 really want to have a good night's sleep is one 700 00:33:00.890 --> 00:33:04.170 hour before you go to bed, no devices. Yeah. And that's, 701 00:33:04.430 --> 00:33:06.450 I mean, for many people, they're like, there's no way 702 00:33:06.529 --> 00:33:09.170 I can do that. But I mean, again, the idea 703 00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:11.210 is that we know that if we have too many 704 00:33:11.250 --> 00:33:13.349 thoughts in our head, it's our thoughts that keep us up. 705 00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:16.710 So if we can do things to clear the clutter, like, 706 00:33:16.829 --> 00:33:19.950 you know, going for a walk or exercising or, you know, 707 00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:22.690 playing with your pets, you know, doing something that's a 708 00:33:22.710 --> 00:33:26.769 more perceptual activity, taking a shower, anything that wakes us 709 00:33:26.890 --> 00:33:28.890 up into a perceptual mode, which is really what we 710 00:33:28.930 --> 00:33:31.690 need for sleep, as opposed to a conceptual mode where 711 00:33:31.710 --> 00:33:34.339 we're thinking or oftentimes ruminating about things. 712 00:33:36.220 --> 00:33:38.539 Yeah, there's another tip that my dad, when I was little, 713 00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:41.940 used to give, which was I would complain to him 714 00:33:42.940 --> 00:33:44.859 that I couldn't sleep. And he would say, bend over 715 00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:46.529 and run as fast as you can into the wall. 716 00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:49.180 That was a great. 717 00:33:49.240 --> 00:33:50.420 Did that work well for you? 718 00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:51.140 I never tried it. 719 00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:52.000 Oh, really? 720 00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:54.299 It's an interesting one. It could put you in a 721 00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:55.500 perceptual state. 722 00:33:55.859 --> 00:33:59.619 The wall, impact, the running. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. 723 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.779 We didn't recommend that one, but we'll consider it, Dan. 724 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:03.240 Thank you. 725 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:06.240 Stay tuned. More of our conversation is on the way 726 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:14.320 after this. So you've written a couple of books. The 727 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:17.369 most recent one is The Mind of the Leader by 728 00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:18.980 both of you. Tell me about the book. 729 00:34:20.739 --> 00:34:24.000 It's basically a research, a four-year research study with the 730 00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:27.949 Harvard Business Review where we have assessed 35,000 leaders around 731 00:34:27.969 --> 00:34:32.670 the world and interviewed 250-some CXOs around the world from 732 00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:34.769 Microsoft and McKinsey and Accenture. 733 00:34:34.789 --> 00:34:34.869 CXOs? 734 00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:41.530 Chief whatever officer. So that could be CEO, CFO, COO, whatever. 735 00:34:41.590 --> 00:34:46.469 Basically to figure out what kind of mental qualities are 736 00:34:46.489 --> 00:34:52.800 needed for leaders nowadays to be effectual in creating engagement, motivation, 737 00:34:53.019 --> 00:34:56.659 and basically drive great performance in their teams and their organizations. 738 00:34:56.820 --> 00:35:00.739 What are those qualities that leaders need to have? And 739 00:35:00.860 --> 00:35:03.199 out of this whole research, the three qualities that stood 740 00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:06.000 out really clearly was first of all, mindfulness. Because without mindfulness, 741 00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.239 You really don't have anything. You're not focused. You're not self-aware. 742 00:35:09.260 --> 00:35:11.489 You're not present with your people. So without that, you 743 00:35:11.530 --> 00:35:14.269 kind of lose out on all

parameters. The second one 744 00:35:14.289 --> 00:35:16.449 is selflessness, which is a bit of a surprise to us. 745 00:35:17.170 --> 00:35:19.909 Selflessness in terms of leading for the greater good and 746 00:35:19.929 --> 00:35:23.409 for the benefit of the majority, not for your own interest, 747 00:35:23.489 --> 00:35:25.150 because if you do that, people are not going to 748 00:35:25.170 --> 00:35:28.110 be willing to work hard for you. The last one 749 00:35:28.179 --> 00:35:30.719 is compassion, which is the intention to be of benefit 750 00:35:30.739 --> 00:35:33.659 for others. If you as a leader show up compassion- 751 00:35:34.269 --> 00:35:36.449 with compassion and you have actually compassion for the people 752 00:35:36.469 --> 00:35:39.070 you're leading and for the clients that you're, you're serving, 753 00:35:39.829 --> 00:35:41.730 they will know you have their back and they will 754 00:35:41.829 --> 00:35:45.050 come back and they will work harder for you. So mindfulness, 755 00:35:45.070 --> 00:35:48.230 self and compassion were the three qualities that are really 756 00:35:48.510 --> 00:35:49.929 key for leaders nowadays. 757 00:35:50.130 --> 00:35:53.190 Two complaints you often hear or pushbacks you often hear 758 00:35:53.210 --> 00:35:55.929 to the idea of compassion in a professional context. One is, 759 00:35:56.550 --> 00:35:59.030 isn't it going to lead you to be pushed around? 760 00:36:00.510 --> 00:36:00.699 Right. 761 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:03.400 So there's the challenge both with, yeah, yeah. There is 762 00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:05.719 a challenge of both self and compassion that people will 763 00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:09.159 think that you become a doormat, which is not the case. 764 00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:12.219 Compassion doesn't mean that you're always soft and fluffy and 765 00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:15.780 like petting people and giving them what they want, trying 766 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:18.639 to please them. It can be about giving the tough feedback. 767 00:36:18.659 --> 00:36:20.570 It can be about laying people off, but doing it 768 00:36:20.610 --> 00:36:23.090 with the intention to be of benefit rather than just 769 00:36:23.550 --> 00:36:27.630 be ruthless and tough. Compassion is not soft. It's actually 770 00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:30.309 pretty hard because it means you show up as a 771 00:36:30.349 --> 00:36:32.670 human being in the act of doing tough things to 772 00:36:32.710 --> 00:36:35.760 other people. Which is your job as a leader? So 773 00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:38.139 compassion is not soft. It's pretty hard, actually. 774 00:36:40.019 --> 00:36:44.730 Here's the second question. If selflessness and compassion are two 775 00:36:44.769 --> 00:36:46.730 of the most important things these people are telling, the 776 00:36:46.789 --> 00:36:51.590 CXO people are telling you, why do so many toxic 777 00:36:51.630 --> 00:36:52.389 people succeed? 778 00:36:54.699 --> 00:36:58.880 There's equal research. Our research was a four-year project with 779 00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:03.329 a pretty big data sample. There's also research from people 780 00:37:03.369 --> 00:37:06.619 like Jeffrey Pfeffer from Stanford. It's basically saying if you 781 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:09.519 want to race fast in ranks, you need to be 782 00:37:09.739 --> 00:37:12.380 all about yourself and you need to be ruthless and tough. 783 00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:14.980 That's the way of getting a great career. So there 784 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.699 seems to be evidence for both of those paths. I 785 00:37:17.739 --> 00:37:21.030 think for each leader is a decision of what do 786 00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:23.429 you want to bring into the world and also who 787 00:37:23.489 --> 00:37:25.510 is it that you want to be. We can certainly 788 00:37:25.550 --> 00:37:28.050 see that with those qualities of basically being good and 789 00:37:28.090 --> 00:37:30.969 doing good, you have a good chance of racing faster. 790 00:37:31.460 --> 00:37:34.119 There's also evidence that shows, though, that if you are 791 00:37:34.179 --> 00:37:37.519 ruthless and if you're all about yourself, that it'll be short-lived. 792 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:39.599 You know, people won't work for you for very long. 793 00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:43.449 People will not necessarily– they certainly won't stay late. They 794 00:37:43.469 --> 00:37:45.170 certainly won't put in the extra effort. And I think 795 00:37:45.190 --> 00:37:49.070 what we're seeing now in organizations is engagement scores continue 796 00:37:49.110 --> 00:37:51.590 to see the Gallup poll results. Only 14% of the 797 00:37:51.630 --> 00:37:53.909 global workforce is engaged, and it doesn't look like it's 798 00:37:53.929 --> 00:37:56.429 going to go up anytime soon. And I think that 799 00:37:56.550 --> 00:37:58.650 now as we're looking at the jobs that we have 800 00:37:58.849 --> 00:38:02.050 are so much more about collaboration because no one person 801 00:38:02.090 --> 00:38:04.710 can have all of the answers. We need to be 802 00:38:04.769 --> 00:38:06.389 able to be present with each other. We need to 803 00:38:06.489 --> 00:38:08.889 actually enjoy working together because we're probably going to be 804 00:38:08.949 --> 00:38:12.739 working a lot together. If we don't have the social cohesion, 805 00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:14.860 if we don't have the trust, if I don't know, Dan, 806 00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:18.460 that you have my back, really, how long term, how 807 00:38:18.500 --> 00:38:20.980 effective are we going to be in terms of our relationship? 808 00:38:21.019 --> 00:38:23.340 Maybe for a short period of time, a short sprint. 809 00:38:23.889 --> 00:38:25.650 But over the long haul, which I think is what 810 00:38:25.670 --> 00:38:29.110 we're seeing now is really troubling for organizations is they're 811 00:38:29.130 --> 00:38:31.739 not able to build loyalty and trust and social cohesion 812 00:38:31.840 -->

00:38:32.820 over an extended period of time. 813 00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:35.119 What I see of particularly toxic people is they're very 814 00:38:35.139 --> 00:38:37.760 good at managing up and therefore get the promotions and 815 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:39.389 then you have to work for terrifying people. 816 00:38:39.670 --> 00:38:42.130 Yeah. And I think that what we're seeing though from 817 00:38:42.170 --> 00:38:45.789 a leadership perspective– is that how long is the team 818 00:38:45.829 --> 00:38:48.949 going to stick around? I mean, right now, especially, I mean, 819 00:38:49.329 --> 00:38:52.530 right now, anybody can work from their couch. And if 820 00:38:52.570 --> 00:38:54.469 they're smart and if they're capable, they can get a 821 00:38:54.489 --> 00:38:55.650 job anywhere in the world. 822 00:38:56.250 --> 00:38:58.670 Yeah, 3.5% unemployment or whatever we're at. 823 00:38:58.710 --> 00:39:01.309 Well, exactly. So I think the thing is, is that 824 00:39:01.389 --> 00:39:04.829 in the war for talent, if you're a jerk and 825 00:39:04.849 --> 00:39:08.309 you're treating your people like crap, how successful are you 826 00:39:08.329 --> 00:39:11.349 going to be? That's the bottom line. And also, I mean, 827 00:39:11.449 --> 00:39:13.059 what kind of person do you want to be? But 828 00:39:13.099 --> 00:39:15.900 if you're beyond that question, then in terms of actually 829 00:39:15.940 --> 00:39:21.590 your ability to be able to manage in today's complex, diverse, 830 00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:26.769 global worlds where creativity is becoming more and more important 831 00:39:26.829 --> 00:39:29.969 for every different– like Carlsberg, they need creativity as well. 832 00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:33.639 much as any other organization now. You need team. 833 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.289 But you mentioned this study out of– this guy out 834 00:39:38.329 --> 00:39:41.929 of Stanford who's found the opposite. So what is– how– 835 00:39:42.010 --> 00:39:43.230 if he were in the room, what would he be 836 00:39:43.269 --> 00:39:43.730 saying now? 837 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.469 He would probably say, well, it seems both of those 838 00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:49.989 options are great. And I hope he would say, so 839 00:39:50.090 --> 00:39:51.429 what do you want to be? What do you want 840 00:39:51.449 --> 00:39:54.789 to bring into the world? But his research is compelling. 841 00:39:55.110 --> 00:39:57.110 Do the power play. Do what is good for you. 842 00:39:57.210 --> 00:39:59.409 And that's going to get you up there a little 843 00:39:59.449 --> 00:40:02.769 bit faster. But he would also say it's short-lived, as 844 00:40:03.030 --> 00:40:05.610 Jacqueline says. The team is not going to stay around 845 00:40:05.650 --> 00:40:09.289 for long. At some point, you may be told on 846 00:40:09.409 --> 00:40:12.809 that you're a bastard. And in the long term, it 847 00:40:12.849 --> 00:40:15.559 won't support you. And it won't feel good for you anyway. 848 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:15.760 No. 849 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:17.800 I mean that's the other thing is that it doesn't 850 00:40:17.980 --> 00:40:18.480 feel good. 851 00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:19.619 Yeah. 852 00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:22.789 You know, many of the people who are bastards are 853 00:40:22.909 --> 00:40:27.110 not mindful. They're not quite aware of the pain. But 854 00:40:27.170 --> 00:40:28.789 it doesn't feel good. 855 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:32.039 Well, I think that's the other thing that we know is, 856 00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:34.179 and I think the research is backing this up, but 857 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:38.119 we actually know that we are social beings. We look 858 00:40:38.570 --> 00:40:41.329 from our ancestors, we look to be able to have 859 00:40:41.429 --> 00:40:44.170 communities and we look to be able to support each other. 860 00:40:44.849 --> 00:40:47.170 And we know that when we're not kind to others, 861 00:40:47.230 --> 00:40:49.750 it actually affects us from a neurological perspective. We may 862 00:40:49.829 --> 00:40:53.210 not be consciously aware of it, but subconsciously we know 863 00:40:53.250 --> 00:40:56.170 it doesn't feel good and it has long-term negative effects. 864 00:40:56.190 --> 00:40:58.380 So I think that those people that are that are 865 00:40:58.579 --> 00:41:00.800 rising up the ranks and feel like, wow, I'm amassing 866 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:04.050 a lot of power and money and maybe on the 867 00:41:04.090 --> 00:41:06.309 outside it may seem like I have it all. My 868 00:41:06.369 --> 00:41:08.429 question is I don't really think they're very happy. 869 00:41:08.449 --> 00:41:11.489 And I think that's also from an organizational point of view. 870 00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:15.389 There's massive research now finding that organizations that are actually 871 00:41:15.449 --> 00:41:18.969 truly caring for their people are doing financially much better 872 00:41:18.989 --> 00:41:22.150 as well. So there's a real business case for basically 873 00:41:22.190 --> 00:41:24.070 bringing good into leadership. 874 00:41:24.090 --> 00:41:26.079 But isn't that– so we talked in the micro level 875 00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:28.610 of how you can be a doormat of– People worry 876 00:41:28.630 --> 00:41:31.030 you can be a doormat if you're compassionate, but what 877 00:41:31.050 --> 00:41:33.489 about on the macro level for an individual corporation? If 878 00:41:33.510 --> 00:41:38.349 you're giving great health benefits, whatever, how does that help 879 00:41:38.389 --> 00:41:38.949 the bottom line? 880 00:41:39.190 --> 00:41:41.659 Right. I think we share a great story of one 881 00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:43.920 of the organizations that we work closely with in this research, 882 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.480 which is Marriott, which is one of the biggest companies 883 00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:50.559 in the world. The merger will start with now 750,000 employees, 884 00:41:50.980 --> 00:41:55.739 so

a massive, massive organization. They have a business philosophy, 885 00:41:55.780 --> 00:41:58.360 which is if we take care of our people, They 886 00:41:58.409 --> 00:42:00.730 take care of our guests and the guests will return. 887 00:42:01.309 --> 00:42:03.590 So that's basically the business philosophy. It's not like the 888 00:42:03.909 --> 00:42:06.789 HR promise or a way of thinking about people. It's 889 00:42:06.809 --> 00:42:09.949 the business philosophy. And it sounds good and it's something 890 00:42:09.969 --> 00:42:12.329 that most organizations would say, yeah, we think that as well. 891 00:42:12.349 --> 00:42:14.199 The question is, what do you do when rubber hits 892 00:42:14.219 --> 00:42:17.239 the road? And Marriott had a real crush back or 893 00:42:17.260 --> 00:42:21.539 a crunch back in the financial crisis in 2008 and 894 00:42:21.539 --> 00:42:25.760 2009 when companies stopped traveling and people canceled their vacations. 895 00:42:26.409 --> 00:42:29.510 Nobody went to hotels for any reason. So they went 896 00:42:29.570 --> 00:42:34.260 from a global occupancy rate of 87 to 4 within 897 00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:37.239 a few months, meaning basically they had millions of hotel 898 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:40.380 rooms that were empty and they had hundreds of thousands 899 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:43.710 of people that basically had nothing to do. And the chairman, 900 00:42:43.730 --> 00:42:46.929 Bill Marriott, he asked the CEO and the CHRO, the 901 00:42:47.110 --> 00:42:50.210 HR director, to come into the boardroom and said, what's 902 00:42:50.230 --> 00:42:53.719 the situation? And the CEO basically shared, it's looking really bad. 903 00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:56.579 We are having red numbers. We have to change something. 904 00:42:57.159 --> 00:42:59.739 The biggest cost is our people. So he turned to 905 00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:02.519 the HR director, David Rodriguez, and said, so David, what 906 00:43:02.539 --> 00:43:05.139 can we do about this? And David said, first of all, 907 00:43:05.179 --> 00:43:07.320 we can lay off people. That's what all companies are 908 00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:10.460 doing right now. And Bill just instinctively said, well, that 909 00:43:10.500 --> 00:43:12.460 would be wrong because people will not be able to 910 00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:14.739 pay their mortgage. They won't be able to put their 911 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.199 kids through education. We can't do that. That's not compassionate. 912 00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:19.940 So what is the plan B? And David said, well, 913 00:43:21.010 --> 00:43:24.389 It'll be painful, but we can reduce everybody's hours. The 914 00:43:24.429 --> 00:43:27.389 downside of that is that people will lose their health coverage. 915 00:43:28.050 --> 00:43:30.889 And Bill Marriott again, then he said, well, that sounds 916 00:43:30.929 --> 00:43:32.530 like a good plan. Let's do that. But we'll have 917 00:43:32.550 --> 00:43:35.500 to suspend the rule about

health coverage. People need their 918 00:43:35.539 --> 00:43:39.559 health coverage. So it was costly for Marriott through a 919 00:43:39.960 --> 00:43:43.400 year and a half. But after that recession, they came 920 00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:46.219 out with the highest engagement scores that they had ever had. 921 00:43:47.099 --> 00:43:50.389 And they have really high engagement scores in general. They 922 00:43:50.429 --> 00:43:54.889 have higher engagement scores than organizations like Google or Microsoft 923 00:43:55.449 --> 00:43:58.110 that have high-paid people and people with high education, which 924 00:43:58.130 --> 00:44:01.650 is normally equated with high engagement scores. But Marriott really 925 00:44:01.690 --> 00:44:04.199 have people that are committed to their work because they're 926 00:44:04.219 --> 00:44:06.639 taken care of. So I think in a macro perspective, 927 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:08.840 it really makes sense, and we see this in many 928 00:44:08.860 --> 00:44:10.139 of the organizations that we work with. 929 00:44:10.699 --> 00:44:15.239 What do you guys counsel your readers or clients or 930 00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:18.320 whoever you're dealing with about– and this is a non-sequitur, 931 00:44:18.340 --> 00:44:24.179 I apologize– about dealing with toxic folks in the workplace 932 00:44:25.300 --> 00:44:28.320 or dealing with the toddler at home because he's really 933 00:44:28.340 --> 00:44:32.539 changing some of those diapers. No, I'm kidding about the kid. 934 00:44:32.599 --> 00:44:36.489 But on the grownups who are toxic and you just 935 00:44:36.530 --> 00:44:39.010 find them in the workplace, I think a lot of 936 00:44:39.070 --> 00:44:43.190 us wonder how do we work with those folks while 937 00:44:43.250 --> 00:44:45.269 not abandoning our ideals? 938 00:44:45.829 --> 00:44:48.150 I think that for me, the one thing that I 939 00:44:48.389 --> 00:44:52.570 often look with organizations is to try to get that 940 00:44:52.730 --> 00:44:54.849 individual to see whether that's actually helping them or not. 941 00:44:54.989 --> 00:44:58.570 So everybody, we all are driven by our motivations, right? 942 00:44:58.630 --> 00:45:01.989 So is that actually truly being effective for that person? 943 00:45:02.030 --> 00:45:04.860 And is there any way that you can look at 944 00:45:04.889 --> 00:45:07.300 what's important to that person? And maybe it is around 945 00:45:07.340 --> 00:45:09.300 the team. You know, maybe it is around, you know what? 946 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:12.400 And we often see this. People will come to us 947 00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:15.710 because a leader is they're having extreme turnover within their team. 948 00:45:15.750 --> 00:45:18.000 And we say, okay, so this is a problem. You're getting, 949 00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:20.719 you know, bad turnover within your team. You're getting, you know, 950 00:45:21.139 --> 00:45:23.800 whatever reviews, you know, your 360 reviews are coming back 951 00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:26.619 all negative. So is there something that actually is a 952 00:45:26.659 --> 00:45:28.639 pain point that they would say is an, they would 953 00:45:28.659 --> 00:45:30.900 agree is a pain point that then you could be 954 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:32.510 able to use to be able to open a door 955 00:45:32.530 --> 00:45:35.590 to a conversation. But honestly, I mean, you. 956 00:45:35.050 --> 00:45:36.630 Know, you can't do that if it's your boss though. 957 00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:40.579 Well, yeah, and I think that's a tough situation. I mean, 958 00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:43.440 but I think that to me, I would say that 959 00:45:43.539 --> 00:45:45.860 if you can't find a way that they can be 960 00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:49.420 motivated to even slightly look at how their behavior may 961 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:51.989 or may not be effective for you, that's just a 962 00:45:52.050 --> 00:45:54.849 tough situation. I would say then, again, for you, if 963 00:45:54.869 --> 00:45:57.150 you don't have any other choice, you need the job, 964 00:45:57.170 --> 00:45:58.570 you need to stay in the job, I would say 965 00:45:58.590 --> 00:46:01.389 then the practice is actually probably really important to you 966 00:46:01.409 --> 00:46:03.489 and make sure you're doing a lot of self-care and 967 00:46:03.630 --> 00:46:06.530 self-compassion because it sounds like in a situation like that, 968 00:46:06.550 --> 00:46:09.710 you might need it. But my experience is that I 969 00:46:10.489 --> 00:46:14.369 believe in positive things about human beings. I think that 970 00:46:14.829 --> 00:46:17.469 most people, if they're shown a better way to be 971 00:46:17.530 --> 00:46:21.710 able to lead that includes being kind to people, I 972 00:46:22.150 --> 00:46:25.389 actually think most people are open to that. You just 973 00:46:25.429 --> 00:46:27.840 may have to help them see that perhaps it's been 974 00:46:27.860 --> 00:46:30.619 the way that they were led. It's habit. It's like 975 00:46:30.659 --> 00:46:32.539 that's what they think that bosses are supposed to be like. 976 00:46:32.579 --> 00:46:35.429 Bosses are supposed to be jerks. And if there's any way, 977 00:46:35.469 --> 00:46:37.760 maybe give them our book. I don't know. Something that 978 00:46:37.820 --> 00:46:40.460 might help inspire them to see that there's an alternative. 979 00:46:40.860 --> 00:46:42.539 And I think that's the big thing that we see 980 00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:46.099 in organizations and leaders right now is that too many leaders, 981 00:46:46.539 --> 00:46:48.849 I think, are habitual in terms of how they think 982 00:46:48.889 --> 00:46:50.949 they're supposed to lead. And it's not working for them. 983 00:46:51.030 --> 00:46:52.909 It's not helping them. It's not helping their teams. It's 984 00:46:52.929 --> 00:46:55.289 not helping their mind. And I think what we're really 985 00:46:55.349 --> 00:46:57.949 seeing is there's a new wave of we need a

986 00:46:58.050 --> 00:46:59.960 new way of leading. We need a new way of 987 00:47:00.019 --> 00:47:03.139 showing up. Which is much more about being human, which 988 00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:05.840 is much more about being real, being mindful, being selfless, 989 00:47:05.860 --> 00:47:09.050 being compassionate. And it seems anyway that a lot of 990 00:47:09.090 --> 00:47:11.869 other people are supporting that. Find another leader that supports– 991 00:47:11.949 --> 00:47:14.030 that is a better role model and see if they 992 00:47:14.050 --> 00:47:17.469 would be– mentor that person or connect with them. Find 993 00:47:17.510 --> 00:47:19.030 some way. Yeah. 994 00:47:19.590 --> 00:47:21.719 The other book that I know that you've written, I 995 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:24.239 don't know if you wrote it together, One Second Ahead? 996 00:47:24.380 --> 00:47:24.619 Yes. 997 00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:25.800 Is that you solo? 998 00:47:26.139 --> 00:47:26.619 No, together. 999 00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:29.159 Together. Okay. So tell me about that book or either 1000 00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:29.639 one of you can. 1001 00:47:29.659 --> 00:47:31.860 So that's kind of where the interview started. That is 1002 00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:37.599 really about incorporating mindfulness into all daily work activities. So 1003 00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:39.280 we talked about the emails and the meetings and the 1004 00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:42.260 sleep and the prioritization and so on. So it's really 1005 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.369 a book about how to become more effective and therefore 1006 00:47:45.449 --> 00:47:49.199 more calm, more clear-minded, more creative, more resilient people. by 1007 00:47:49.300 --> 00:47:53.230 utilizing mindfulness in a fast-paced, busy business life. 1008 00:47:53.769 --> 00:47:57.710 Do you ever struggle implementing any of the aforementioned? 1009 00:47:58.650 --> 00:48:02.070 I would be lying if I said, no, I never struggle. 1010 00:48:02.090 --> 00:48:04.019 He's perfect. 1011 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.340 He never struggles. 1012 00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:08.239 No, it is. I mean, we live the lives of 1013 00:48:08.300 --> 00:48:11.920 our clients. So we run our global organization. So we 1014 00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:14.099 have emails coming in in all time zones. We have 1015 00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:16.219 meetings in all time zones. We are managing around 500 1016 00:48:16.219 --> 00:48:20.869 large clients. So we're living their life. We're traveling, most 1017 00:48:20.889 --> 00:48:24.050 of us, probably 150 to 200 days a year. So 1018 00:48:24.070 --> 00:48:26.969 we know the reality that they are in. Do we 1019 00:48:27.090 --> 00:48:29.889 always manage to do everything that we say? Of course 1020 00:48:29.909 --> 00:48:32.449 we don't. That would be ridiculous. What we are, I 1021 00:48:32.849 --> 00:48:35.789 think both of us, 100% committed to is the daily 1022 00:48:35.829 --> 00:48:40.699 practice because without that, it seems just things are falling apart. 1023 00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:42.530 How much meditation do you do? Every day? 1024 00:48:42.809 --> 00:48:45.489 Depends how busy it is. If it's vacation, I think 1025 00:48:45.530 --> 00:48:47.219 at least I go a little bit more lazy. I 1026 00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:50.199 don't need it as much. But when it's busy, especially 1027 00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.719 when traveling a lot, it's at least 20 to 40 1028 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:53.400 minutes in the morning. 1029 00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:57.260 Do you ever get really pissed off? I have a 1030 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:03.039 hard time imagining that. I would say that. 1031 00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:06.380 It's not in my culture, Dan. But I think that 1032 00:49:06.500 --> 00:49:09.559 what I find is that, I think what Rasmus was 1033 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:13.619 saying about the practices, I find that I can tell. 1034 00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:15.679 I think what the practice has given me is I 1035 00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:18.150 can tell when I need to pull away. And I 1036 00:49:18.190 --> 00:49:20.820 think that's probably one of the most valuable. valuable things 1037 00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.539 that the practice has given me is that if I'm 1038 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:25.840 in a meeting and I'm starting to notice, wow, you know, 1039 00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:27.449 I'm starting to feel a little bit of tension in 1040 00:49:27.469 --> 00:49:29.090 my body, or I'm starting to feel a little bit 1041 00:49:29.110 --> 00:49:32.489 of frustration arising. I've practiced enough to know that I 1042 00:49:32.530 --> 00:49:35.760 can see it before it takes over. And I can say, 1043 00:49:35.780 --> 00:49:39.400 you know what, I'm so sorry, but I've got to 1044 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:41.519 call it quits on this meeting. And I mean, I 1045 00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:44.739 really seriously, like, because I know that I'm, whatever I 1046 00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:47.139 might say next is not going to be my best self. 1047 00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:51.280 And so for me, if, People don't balk at that? 1048 00:49:51.380 --> 00:49:54.159 Well, I think that people respect it because if I say, 1049 00:49:54.199 --> 00:49:56.889 you know what, Dan, I really– this is really important 1050 00:49:56.929 --> 00:49:58.710 to me and you're really important to me and this 1051 00:49:58.769 --> 00:50:00.710 conversation is really important to me. But I'm not in 1052 00:50:00.750 --> 00:50:02.849 the right headspace to have this conversation right now and 1053 00:50:02.869 --> 00:50:05.349 this applies to the toddler and maybe not so much. Sorry, 1054 00:50:05.369 --> 00:50:06.510 I just had to throw that in because I thought 1055 00:50:06.530 --> 00:50:08.739 that was cute. But this applies I think in the 1056 00:50:08.780 --> 00:50:12.099 workplace but also in all of our social interactions. I 1057 00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:14.400 think that it's so important for us to be able 1058 00:50:14.460 -->

00:50:17.760 to call it and to say, I am not going 1059 00:50:17.780 --> 00:50:21.219 to be my best self in this moment. So can 1060 00:50:21.260 --> 00:50:24.469 I just go take a break to be able to 1061 00:50:24.510 --> 00:50:26.630 make sure that I can clear my head and I 1062 00:50:26.690 --> 00:50:29.269 can come back and be able to be more calm, 1063 00:50:29.289 --> 00:50:31.570 more clear, more focused. So I'm not just reactive. I 1064 00:50:31.610 --> 00:50:35.610 want to be responsive to every moment. And if I 1065 00:50:35.670 --> 00:50:37.590 know I can't be, then I should do something about 1066 00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:38.619 it and take responsibility. 1067 00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:42.519 That all makes sense. What concern I have, um, We 1068 00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:46.070 on the 10% Happier app, we have a communications course. 1069 00:50:46.409 --> 00:50:49.809 And the teacher is this amazing guy, Oren Sofer, who's 1070 00:50:49.829 --> 00:50:53.769 been on this podcast at least once. And one of 1071 00:50:53.829 --> 00:50:56.710 the qualms I had in the production of that course, 1072 00:50:56.730 --> 00:50:58.469 and I would run it, I sort of peppered him 1073 00:50:58.510 --> 00:51:00.320 in the videos a lot about this. And I would 1074 00:51:00.860 --> 00:51:02.639 put the same question to you guys, which is, how 1075 00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:06.400 do you implement this stuff, especially around communication, without sounding 1076 00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:11.610 a little programmed, without sounding a little earnest? uh, with this, 1077 00:51:11.909 --> 00:51:14.369 you know, like this conversation is really important to me. 1078 00:51:14.510 --> 00:51:17.110 You're really important to me. So, I mean, I think 1079 00:51:17.130 --> 00:51:18.449 that was an effective thing to say. And if I 1080 00:51:18.449 --> 00:51:20.059 was in the receiving end of that, I would like it. 1081 00:51:20.349 --> 00:51:22.769 But I also, I wonder whether I'd think, well, okay, is, 1082 00:51:23.570 --> 00:51:25.969 is that sincere or is that, you know, or is that, 1083 00:51:26.219 --> 00:51:29.110 is that, you know, is she so earnest that like she'd, 1084 00:51:29.139 --> 00:51:32.019 you know, can't drop an F bomb or drink Carlsberg 1085 00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.719 or whatever. So I, do you think, do you understand 1086 00:51:35.739 --> 00:51:36.219 where I'm getting? 1087 00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:39.139 I totally understand where you're getting. And I think that Tim, 1088 00:51:39.849 --> 00:51:41.750 From our perspective, I would say that that's why it's 1089 00:51:41.769 --> 00:51:43.920 so important to make this part of the culture. Because 1090 00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:46.199 if I was the only one doing it, it might 1091 00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:49.420 seem weird. It might seem countercultural. But if we all 1092 00:51:49.579 --> 00:51:52.760 have an understanding of our crazy minds, right, we know 1093 00:51:52.780 --> 00:51:55.789 that we get distracted easily. We know that when we're reactive, 1094 00:51:55.809 --> 00:51:58.590 when we're emotional, and we know that emotions are a 1095 00:51:58.630 --> 00:52:00.630 huge part of our lives and they're a huge part 1096 00:52:00.650 --> 00:52:03.969 of our work, we know that sometimes that cannot help 1097 00:52:04.030 --> 00:52:06.239 us be our best selves. If we can make that 1098 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:10.099 not just me being earnest but actually being– us being 1099 00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:13.650 effective as a team and we can introduce the language 1100 00:52:14.170 --> 00:52:20.010 of attention, of emotional regulation, of responsivity versus reactivity, then 1101 00:52:20.050 --> 00:52:21.730 I think it becomes not so weird. So I totally 1102 00:52:21.750 --> 00:52:23.449 agree with you. If it was just me, it might 1103 00:52:23.510 --> 00:52:25.230 seem weird. But let's make it part of the culture 1104 00:52:25.349 --> 00:52:27.150 because it can be beneficial for all of us. 1105 00:52:27.170 --> 00:52:28.369 But then isn't the whole culture weird? 1106 00:52:28.929 --> 00:52:30.090 And is that such a bad thing? 1107 00:52:31.380 --> 00:52:33.119 But I think what I would add to that is 1108 00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:38.130 also– To me, being mindful is not about not being tough. 1109 00:52:38.289 --> 00:52:42.059 It's not about not being fast. To me, mindfulness is 1110 00:52:42.099 --> 00:52:46.179 about being fast. It's about having a mental velocity and 1111 00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:50.320 agility that can allow you to switch from being really 1112 00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:52.619 focused and calm in a conversation. And then you have 1113 00:52:52.659 --> 00:52:56.539 a conversation that requires that you bring some toughness into that. 1114 00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:59.219 There's absolutely no contradiction between those. So I don't think 1115 00:52:59.260 --> 00:53:02.929 that mindfulness is about being soft or fluffy or weird. 1116 00:53:03.449 --> 00:53:05.170 It's about doing the right thing and being aware of 1117 00:53:05.190 --> 00:53:06.869 what is the right thing right now. And that can 1118 00:53:06.889 --> 00:53:07.610 be really fast. 1119 00:53:07.929 --> 00:53:10.369 Final question from me. I know you guys have heard 1120 00:53:10.409 --> 00:53:12.690 this a million times, but what about the beef from 1121 00:53:12.730 --> 00:53:16.789 the mindfulness crowd? And I actually think some of these folks, 1122 00:53:16.869 --> 00:53:21.780 these sort of Buddhist purists, have a point that the– 1123 00:53:22.690 --> 00:53:25.210 in other words, their argument is that we're turning mindfulness 1124 00:53:25.250 --> 00:53:28.789 into mick mindfulness by bringing into these corporations, focusing on 1125 00:53:29.329 --> 00:53:34.369 performance and perhaps– playing into the desire of management to 1126 00:53:34.389 --> 00:53:39.010 have happy, compliant, super productive employees. What's your take on 1127 00:53:39.050 -->

00:53:40.239 this critique? 1128 00:53:41.159 --> 00:53:44.820 I think there's value to that for sure. And coming 1129 00:53:44.860 --> 00:53:47.719 from a Buddhist background myself and having been a researcher 1130 00:53:47.739 --> 00:53:52.449 for years, I totally buy into that, at least in theory. 1131 00:53:52.949 --> 00:53:57.969 Two things, the compliance aspect. We don't see people becoming 1132 00:53:57.989 --> 00:54:00.250 more compliant. We see people, and we have worked with 1133 00:54:00.289 --> 00:54:02.920 hundreds of thousands, and I personally worked with at least 1134 00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:06.260 a few thousand people. I see people becoming more self-aware 1135 00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:09.639 and standing more up for what they believe is right. 1136 00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:12.969 So I have seen people going against ethical or unethical 1137 00:54:13.010 --> 00:54:18.369 decisions in organizations because mindfulness simply allowed them, they could 1138 00:54:18.449 --> 00:54:21.119 not just sit and watch that. So I don't believe 1139 00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:25.039 in the compliance. It's not like taking Valium. No, it's not. 1140 00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:26.199 It's totally not like that. 1141 00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:27.880 Nothing against Valium. 1142 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:31.320 It's probably a good thing. But yeah, that's one thing. 1143 00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:33.260 I don't believe in the compliance thing. The thing about 1144 00:54:33.659 --> 00:54:35.480 is it's just going to turn people into– are we 1145 00:54:35.500 --> 00:54:38.340 just feeding the dragon here? Are we just making people 1146 00:54:38.409 --> 00:54:42.650 more productive? I think there's a risk of that and 1147 00:54:42.750 --> 00:54:46.030 it depends how you teach the mindfulness, what is it 1148 00:54:46.070 --> 00:54:48.590 that you bring into the teaching of the actual practice. 1149 00:54:49.059 --> 00:54:51.320 Yeah, because you're bringing in all this like Canadian stuff 1150 00:54:51.380 --> 00:54:56.199 around compassion and kindness and being present for other people. 1151 00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:58.820 And so it's not just one second ahead with your 1152 00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:00.780 email being able to respond quicker. 1153 00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:02.599 So if you do it just for that sake, I 1154 00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:06.119 think it's a complete missed opportunity of creating something positive 1155 00:55:06.139 --> 00:55:06.599 in the world. 1156 00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:07.880 Go Canada. 1157 00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:13.139 Go Canada. 1158 00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:14.820 Do you want to bite at that apple before we go? 1159 00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:19.019 I would just say that I think that for me, 1160 00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:22.000 the big thing is, is the way that we're working today, 1161 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.920 is it working for us? And if it's not working, 1162 00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:26.860 and I think that this is what we see, a 1163 00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:30.969 lot of organizations, they're not embracing this because they think that, 1164 00:55:31.389 --> 00:55:34.210 you know, it'll make their people more productive or they're 1165 00:55:34.269 --> 00:55:36.989 really looking at this because the way that we're working 1166 00:55:37.030 --> 00:55:40.650 today is not effective. And the idea of being more focused, 1167 00:55:40.670 --> 00:55:44.590 more calm, more clear-minded, wow, actually, could actually be nicer. 1168 00:55:44.610 --> 00:55:46.130 It could be a nicer place to work. And lo 1169 00:55:46.150 --> 00:55:48.610 and behold, it also can make us more productive. Yeah. 1170 00:55:48.630 --> 00:55:50.829 I mean, your timing is good because for me, some 1171 00:55:50.849 --> 00:55:52.829 of the ways that I'm working are not working for me. 1172 00:55:52.889 --> 00:55:56.170 So it's good to have the conversation. Before we go, 1173 00:55:56.289 --> 00:56:00.369 let's just plug everything you've got. Whoever wants to go 1174 00:56:00.550 --> 00:56:03.780 can just give us all the books, all the social 1175 00:56:03.820 --> 00:56:05.300 media handles, the websites. 1176 00:56:05.730 --> 00:56:09.389 Whatever. Everything. We suck at this. We are really not 1177 00:56:09.429 --> 00:56:12.909 a commercial company. We're set up in a not-for-profit principle. 1178 00:56:12.929 --> 00:56:14.489 So we're not here for the commercial gain, I have 1179 00:56:14.530 --> 00:56:17.219 to say. Having said that, if anybody's interested in bringing 1180 00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:23.480 mindfulness to their organization, go to www.potentialproject.com. 1181 00:56:23.500 --> 00:56:24.820 So you're a 501c3? 1182 00:56:25.260 --> 00:56:25.480 Three? 1183 00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:27.079 You're a 501c3. 1184 00:56:27.099 --> 00:56:30.380 We're based at a company that's founded in Europe, so 1185 00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:32.500 it's a whole different structure there. 1186 00:56:32.539 --> 00:56:33.760 But it's a non-profit. 1187 00:56:33.989 --> 00:56:36.730 It's operated on not-for-profit principles. It means there are no 1188 00:56:36.769 --> 00:56:40.210 shareholders getting any returns. There's no profit paid out. There's 1189 00:56:40.230 --> 00:56:43.289 no bonuses. There's pretty low salaries to everybody because we 1190 00:56:43.309 --> 00:56:46.010 believe so much that the methods of mindfulness, self, and 1191 00:56:46.030 --> 00:56:49.280 compassion should be freely available to everybody. So we're doing 1192 00:56:49.300 --> 00:56:51.760 this work because we really believe it's important. But we 1193 00:56:51.780 --> 00:56:54.840 do it in a very professional, not in an esoteric way. 1194 00:56:54.860 --> 00:56:56.360 How do you support yourselves in New York City? 1195 00:56:56.659 --> 00:56:58.920 We're all getting a salary, and the company is paying 1196 00:56:58.960 --> 00:56:59.659 for the expenses. 1197 00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:00.619 Okay. 1198 00:57:00.860 --> 00:57:01.659 Yeah.

1199 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.980 And books? One Second Ahead. 1200 00:57:04.059 --> 00:57:07.480 One Second Ahead and The Mind of the Leader from Harvard. Yeah, 1201 00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:09.949 great books. Read them. All right. 1202 00:57:10.789 --> 00:57:12.610 Thank you both. Really appreciate it. Great job. 1203 00:57:12.730 --> 00:57:12.960 Thanks, Dan. 1204 00:57:12.969 --> 00:57:13.469 Thank you, Dan. 1205 00:57:13.489 --> 00:57:13.989 Appreciate it. 1206 00:57:14.269 --> 00:57:17.730 Thank you to Jacqueline and Rasmus for coming on the show. 1207 00:57:17.889 --> 00:57:20.710 I learned a lot. So let's get to the voicemails. 1208 00:57:20.969 --> 00:57:21.530 Here's number one. 1209 00:57:21.550 --> 00:57:26.619 Hi, Dan. My name is Julie. And my question is 1210 00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:29.380 focusing on the breath has always been a bit difficult 1211 00:57:29.500 --> 00:57:32.199 for me. Because as soon as I start to focus 1212 00:57:32.260 --> 00:57:36.500 on my breath, I either hold my breath or I hyperventilate. 1213 00:57:37.460 --> 00:57:40.019 And I don't know if this has ever been addressed 1214 00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:44.989 in any kind of meditation work that's out there, but 1215 00:57:45.329 --> 00:57:48.010 I find it's hard for me to focus on my breath. 1216 00:57:48.869 --> 00:57:51.510 Is there something else to practice meditation that you can 1217 00:57:51.610 --> 00:57:53.050 focus on besides your breath? 1218 00:57:53.489 --> 00:57:53.909 Thanks, Dan. 1219 00:57:54.949 --> 00:57:57.369 Thank you, Julie. The good news is this is super common. 1220 00:57:58.230 --> 00:58:02.829 And yes, there are many, many options you can focus on. 1221 00:58:03.530 --> 00:58:07.789 If feeling the breath coming in and going out makes 1222 00:58:07.849 --> 00:58:11.409 you anxious or sometimes you hold your breath or hyperventilate 1223 00:58:11.469 --> 00:58:13.969 or some people feel like even if they're not getting 1224 00:58:14.010 --> 00:58:17.110 an anxious response, they worry. We had another voicemail that 1225 00:58:17.139 --> 00:58:19.619 we're not playing on the show this week, but from 1226 00:58:19.659 --> 00:58:22.000 a young man named Jesse in San Diego who worries 1227 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:25.889 that– that he might be controlling his breath too much. 1228 00:58:26.130 --> 00:58:28.300 I've had that issue before. So there are lots of 1229 00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:30.800 other ways to meditate. You can just focus on the 1230 00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:34.360 feeling of your body sitting. And then when you get distracted, 1231 00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:36.800 start again. Or you can just pick one spot on 1232 00:58:36.820 --> 00:58:41.159 the body, like your bottom on the cushion or the 1233 00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:44.900 feeling of your hands touching one another, if you've got 1234 00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:49.639 them cuffed together. So the body is a great You 1235 00:58:49.659 --> 00:58:52.480 can also do body scan meditations where you start at 1236 00:58:53.199 --> 00:58:55.719 your head and work your way down to the toes. 1237 00:58:56.139 --> 00:58:59.320 You can focus on sounds. You can do open awareness 1238 00:58:59.380 --> 00:59:03.030 where you're just focused on whatever naturally arises. And then 1239 00:59:03.050 --> 00:59:04.989 when you get distracted, you start again. You can do 1240 00:59:05.050 --> 00:59:09.210 loving kindness meditation. We have all of the aforementioned flavors 1241 00:59:09.250 --> 00:59:12.139 of meditation online. on the app. If you want more 1242 00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:16.460 granular advice about where to find specific styles of meditation 1243 00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:20.300 on the app, use your coach. A lot of users 1244 00:59:21.300 --> 00:59:24.510 aren't really tuned into this, but if you use the app, 1245 00:59:24.590 --> 00:59:27.710 you get a coach who will answer your questions very quickly. 1246 00:59:27.750 --> 00:59:30.250 Just go to the Find your coach within the app 1247 00:59:30.670 --> 00:59:33.860 and type in a question, and she or he will 1248 00:59:33.900 --> 00:59:36.960 get back to you lickety-split, and they love doing this, 1249 00:59:37.219 --> 00:59:39.559 and they will get as deep as you want on 1250 00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:43.889 any question about which you are curious. So good news 1251 00:59:43.929 --> 00:59:46.489 for you, Julie. Thanks for that question. Also, thanks to Jesse. 1252 00:59:46.510 --> 00:59:49.110 Although we're not playing your voicemail, we appreciated both of 1253 00:59:49.150 --> 00:59:51.530 those questions. Here's voicemail number two. 1254 00:59:52.070 --> 00:59:55.920 Hi, Dan. This is Justin calling from Ottawa, Ontario in Canada. 1255 00:59:56.599 --> 00:59:59.909 I had a question and a comment. Maybe I'll start 1256 00:59:59.929 --> 01:00:02.750 with the question. First, as always, thank you so much 1257 01:00:02.789 --> 01:00:06.190 for all the work you do. You really deepened my 1258 01:00:06.269 --> 01:00:10.030 practice and introduced me to so many teachers and teachings 1259 01:00:10.050 --> 01:00:13.449 that have really changed my life. So, my first question 1260 01:00:13.949 --> 01:00:17.469 is about lineage and how you feel about lineage, because 1261 01:00:17.510 --> 01:00:21.179 obviously in the West, we don't really think about lineage 1262 01:00:21.530 --> 01:00:25.670 very much. But if you're approaching it from a Buddhist 1263 01:00:25.690 --> 01:00:29.780 perspective or even trying to find the right teacher, you know, 1264 01:00:29.820 --> 01:00:33.079 there's considerations like do you study with a Theravadan teacher? 1265 01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:36.480 Do you study with a Zen teacher? Do you study 1266 01:00:36.519 --> 01:00:41.320 with a Vajrayana teacher? And is that lineage important or 1267 01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:46.940 are the teachings and sessions and meditations more important? Anyways, 1268 01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:49.159 it's a question I've been

thinking about a lot and 1269 01:00:49.579 --> 01:00:52.769 felt torn between different lineages at different times. So I was... 1270 01:00:53.789 --> 01:00:56.389 Wondering what you thought about that. For my comment, I 1271 01:00:56.409 --> 01:01:00.289 was just really taken by the voicemail on your Ruth 1272 01:01:00.349 --> 01:01:05.050 King episode with the lady who was talking about her 1273 01:01:05.110 --> 01:01:09.900 issues with confronting anxiety during meditation. And actually, one of 1274 01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:13.239 the coaches on the 10% Happier app gave me such 1275 01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:15.849 good advice for this, and I just wanted to share it. 1276 01:01:17.380 --> 01:01:21.440 And she was saying when anxieties come up or very 1277 01:01:21.500 --> 01:01:25.260 strong emotions come up during meditation, meditation, you know, you 1278 01:01:25.300 --> 01:01:29.219 can note it, note how it feels. And then you 1279 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:31.880 can kind of make a decision at that point whether 1280 01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:36.760 you're going to return to your focus and kind of 1281 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:40.300 just let that emotion be there or really dive into 1282 01:01:40.340 --> 01:01:43.539 the feeling of the emotion and accept it. And she 1283 01:01:43.639 --> 01:01:47.800 described as kind of like whitewater rapids, like just as 1284 01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:49.949 you're hitting the curve, are you going to go for 1285 01:01:49.989 --> 01:01:52.760 it or not? And maybe that's one approach that could 1286 01:01:52.780 --> 01:01:57.400 be helpful because if you're feeling super stressed out and 1287 01:01:57.460 --> 01:02:00.699 that anxiety or emotion is just too powerful, it's totally 1288 01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:04.800 okay to just note it and say, oh, that's this, 1289 01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:07.130 and then return to your focus, and then sometimes you 1290 01:02:07.170 --> 01:02:09.849 might be able to jump into the waters. Anyways, that 1291 01:02:09.889 --> 01:02:12.909 was a very long message, but thank you so much again, 1292 01:02:13.190 --> 01:02:15.349 and thank you for everything you do. 1293 01:02:16.150 --> 01:02:18.570 Thank you. So much to respond to there. I think 1294 01:02:18.610 --> 01:02:21.389 I can do this pretty quickly. On the how to 1295 01:02:21.429 --> 01:02:23.909 deal with anxiety thing. It reminds me of something Jeff 1296 01:02:23.929 --> 01:02:27.869 Warren has talked about the teacher, Jeff Warren, who's quite 1297 01:02:28.010 --> 01:02:31.429 popular on the app, which is that you can focus 1298 01:02:31.570 --> 01:02:35.869 in or focus away. So if you've got a strong emotion, 1299 01:02:35.889 --> 01:02:40.230 like anxiety, one move is to focus into as the 1300 01:02:40.349 --> 01:02:45.119 coach who was consulting with, with Justin said, you know, 1301 01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:49.610 jump into the, into the rapids, and really examine what 1302 01:02:49.650 --> 01:02:52.550 it's like, this feeling of anger or anxiety or fear. 1303 01:02:54.530 --> 01:02:58.429 And in so examining it, you can break it down 1304 01:02:58.510 --> 01:03:01.630 into its component parts of what kind of thoughts come up, 1305 01:03:01.710 --> 01:03:04.590 what's it like in your body, and ultimately that can 1306 01:03:04.630 --> 01:03:10.989 lead you to seeing it as both impermanent, changing, and 1307 01:03:11.030 --> 01:03:15.059 also impersonal. And that is a great way to unhook 1308 01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:21.670 from these often massively powerful emotions that we think are 1309 01:03:21.909 --> 01:03:25.150 ours in some way, but in fact are just these 1310 01:03:25.230 --> 01:03:28.880 passing storms that we don't own, really, and they don't 1311 01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:31.579 have to own us. The other is to focus away. 1312 01:03:31.619 --> 01:03:33.599 So focus in would be to dive into the thing. 1313 01:03:33.619 --> 01:03:37.780 Focus away would be to focus on the feeling of 1314 01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:39.840 your breath coming in and going out, making a note 1315 01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:43.909 every time anxiety gets really prominent. But instead, you're going 1316 01:03:43.929 --> 01:03:51.170 to stay with the often calming features of So those 1317 01:03:51.210 --> 01:03:55.389 are two, in my experience, great ways to work in 1318 01:03:55.409 --> 01:03:59.239 those situations. I'm glad the coach gave you good advice. 1319 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:02.579 I'm not surprised because our coaches are really highly trained meditators. 1320 01:04:03.679 --> 01:04:06.679 But your question had to do with lineage. So should 1321 01:04:06.760 --> 01:04:09.510 lineage be important when you're picking a meditation teacher? I'm 1322 01:04:09.530 --> 01:04:11.489 going to give you my opinion. This is just one 1323 01:04:11.530 --> 01:04:17.849 guy's opinion. My opinion is that it's really about the teachers. 1324 01:04:18.699 --> 01:04:24.460 do you respond well to the teacher? Now, obviously, lineage 1325 01:04:24.820 --> 01:04:29.880 will be intermingled with that. In other words, your feelings, 1326 01:04:31.579 --> 01:04:35.550 whether you relate to somebody, in part will speak to 1327 01:04:35.590 --> 01:04:40.210 that person's personal predilections and their taste and the type 1328 01:04:40.230 --> 01:04:44.130 of practice that they may have gravitated towards will be 1329 01:04:44.170 --> 01:04:46.150 the type of practice that you would gravitate towards. So 1330 01:04:47.909 --> 01:04:51.309 But for me, it's really just about the person first. 1331 01:04:51.809 --> 01:04:53.440 And the thing I'm always looking for, and I've said 1332 01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:56.099 this on the podcast, is how, well, I guess two things. 1333 01:04:56.280 --> 01:05:00.559 One is, do they have a real background, an extensive 1334 01:05:01.300 --> 01:05:04.179 grounding in the practice? Have they done this for a while? 1335 01:05:04.260 --> 01:05:06.360 Have they studied it

seriously? Have they done a lot 1336 01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:09.090 of retreats? Who are their teachers? That to me is 1337 01:05:09.110 --> 01:05:11.710 always very interesting. And then also, what are they like? 1338 01:05:12.130 --> 01:05:16.849 Do they seem like they're putting the precepts of the 1339 01:05:16.889 --> 01:05:19.989 practice to work in their own lives, I'm always interested 1340 01:05:20.010 --> 01:05:23.789 in like how seriously do they take themselves. To me, 1341 01:05:23.829 --> 01:05:26.599 that just seems like a really interesting data point because 1342 01:05:26.860 --> 01:05:32.360 when people take themselves too seriously, that's somehow just my 1343 01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:35.920 antenna go up when that's the case. Just by way 1344 01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:40.119 of an example, Joseph Goldstein who's been practicing meditation for 1345 01:05:40.119 --> 01:05:43.559 50 years also extremely popular on the 10% Happier app, 1346 01:05:43.699 --> 01:05:46.639 also my personal meditation teacher, also a guy who's never 1347 01:05:46.679 --> 01:05:49.199 showed up on this podcast, although we are doing an 1348 01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:53.059 event together in April in Boston, which will be on 1349 01:05:53.099 --> 01:05:54.880 this podcast, and you can get tickets to that if 1350 01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:57.900 you Google it. I forget the link. We'll put it 1351 01:05:57.920 --> 01:06:00.260 in the show notes, but if you just Google Dan Harris, 1352 01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:04.050 Joseph Goldstein, Boston event, something should come up. It's put 1353 01:06:04.110 --> 01:06:08.699 on by the Cambridge Insight Meditation Center, CIMC. It's a 1354 01:06:08.739 --> 01:06:13.880 benefit for CIMC and IMS, the Insight Meditation Society. That's 1355 01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:16.239 in Boston in April. You should go to it. And 1356 01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:18.320 then he'll finally be on the podcast as soon as 1357 01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:21.960 we post it. Anyway, I digress. Joseph doesn't take himself 1358 01:06:21.980 --> 01:06:24.420 seriously at all. He takes the Dharma seriously. He takes 1359 01:06:24.519 --> 01:06:27.960 your practice, if you're one of his students, very seriously. 1360 01:06:28.539 --> 01:06:31.480 But when he's talking about himself, he's incredibly light. And that, 1361 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:35.090 to me, just seems like a really interesting thing. This 1362 01:06:35.210 --> 01:06:39.090 is just one man's opinion. There are– on the question 1363 01:06:39.110 --> 01:06:43.320 of lineage, there are many flavors of Buddhism as you 1364 01:06:43.619 --> 01:06:45.860 listed some of them, Justin. Theravada, which is kind of 1365 01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:50.280 the old school. There's Zen. There's Tibetan. And then even 1366 01:06:50.460 --> 01:06:53.699 within those, there are lots of little nooks and crannies. 1367 01:06:54.059 --> 01:07:02.679 So– and major schools within Tibetan Buddhism, within Zen, within Theravada. 1368

01:07:02.739 --> 01:07:07.090 So– I think these things are interesting, but personally, it's 1369 01:07:07.170 --> 01:07:09.880 really been about the teacher first for me. The one 1370 01:07:09.909 --> 01:07:13.239 other thing I'll say, and I think I've said this before, 1371 01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:16.019 but it bears repeating, that people, when they get excited 1372 01:07:16.039 --> 01:07:19.480 about meditation, often want to sort of hoover up everything. 1373 01:07:20.179 --> 01:07:24.070 But I would argue that when you're going to– when 1374 01:07:24.090 --> 01:07:26.469 it comes to your practice and your teacher, I would 1375 01:07:26.510 --> 01:07:31.309 pick one thing to start with, one school, one teacher, 1376 01:07:31.659 --> 01:07:36.090 one– practice or one set of related practices taught by– 1377 01:07:36.110 --> 01:07:40.159 in a particular tradition and really go for that for 1378 01:07:40.179 --> 01:07:43.119 a couple of years rather than trying a million things 1379 01:07:43.219 --> 01:07:47.400 all at once because it's really hard to know what's 1380 01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:50.139 working when you do the latter, when you're just doing 1381 01:07:50.199 --> 01:07:52.429 everything at once. And then once you have a grounding 1382 01:07:52.769 --> 01:07:56.070 in one type of– one lineage per se or one 1383 01:07:56.110 --> 01:07:59.769 teacher or one style, then I think doing a little 1384 01:07:59.789 --> 01:08:01.800 taste testing from there So I think it makes sense 1385 01:08:01.820 --> 01:08:03.679 to do taste testing at the beginning to really get 1386 01:08:03.699 --> 01:08:07.639 a sense of what resonates with you and then to 1387 01:08:07.739 --> 01:08:09.699 commit for a while. And then you might want to 1388 01:08:09.739 --> 01:08:12.320 pop your head up and look around and do some 1389 01:08:12.409 --> 01:08:17.350 comparative practicing. But again, that's just one guy's opinion. Really 1390 01:08:17.369 --> 01:08:19.970 appreciate these voicemails, guys. Keep them coming. And as I've 1391 01:08:19.989 --> 01:08:24.010 said before, we are now going to or soon start 1392 01:08:24.050 --> 01:08:27.350 having teachers answer the questions. And I'm told that the 1393 01:08:27.369 --> 01:08:29.010 first teacher who's going to be answering a bunch of 1394 01:08:29.050 --> 01:08:31.979 questions in the very near future– We've got a ringer 1395 01:08:32.020 --> 01:08:36.859 for this one, Sharon Salzberg, one of the most important 1396 01:08:37.479 --> 01:08:42.680 and well-known, eminent, and lovable meditation teachers on planet Earth. 1397 01:08:43.899 --> 01:08:47.060 Thank you for listening to the 10% Happier podcast. We 1398 01:08:47.119 --> 01:08:50.489 love that we have a growing and engaged audience. We'll 1399 01:08:50.510 --> 01:08:53.130 be back next Wednesday with another show. I'm going to 1400 01:08:53.170 --> 01:08:54.970 say what I always say at the end of the show, 1401 01:08:55.069 --> 01:08:58.289 but please don't dismiss this as a perfunctory thing. If 1402 01:08:58.350 --> 01:09:02.140 you go on to your, wherever you get your podcasts, 1403 01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:04.520 where you go on to the player, and if you 1404 01:09:04.659 --> 01:09:07.479 give us a rating and a review, especially, I mean, 1405 01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:10.720 I'm just, I'm like somewhat biased toward five-star reviews, but 1406 01:09:10.739 --> 01:09:12.800 you know, I'm not trying to put my thumb on 1407 01:09:12.819 --> 01:09:14.510 the scale here, but if you give us a rating 1408 01:09:14.590 --> 01:09:17.899 or a review, That really helps us in the rankings, 1409 01:09:18.140 --> 01:09:20.350 and so it makes it easier for people to find 1410 01:09:20.729 --> 01:09:24.029 the show. So doing that or telling people about us 1411 01:09:24.090 --> 01:09:28.489 on social media, all of that is incredibly helpful and 1412 01:09:28.590 --> 01:09:31.489 helps us continue to do what we do, and we 1413 01:09:31.529 --> 01:09:34.380 love what we do. So please, if you've got a moment, 1414 01:09:34.500 --> 01:09:36.880 do that. I want to thank, before I go, the 1415 01:09:36.899 --> 01:09:40.380 producers of the show, Ryan Kessler and also Samuel Johns. 1416 01:09:41.109 --> 01:09:43.350 And we will see you again next week. If you 1417 01:09:43.390 --> 01:09:45.930 have ideas for guests, hit me up on Twitter. We 1418 01:09:45.970 --> 01:09:47.760 really do look at that, at Dan E. 1419 01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:48.199 Harris. 1420 01:09:49.020 --> 01:09:49.500 We'll see you soon.