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You can't break it up.
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Welcome.
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We Ain't Dead Yet.
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The show where wisdom has wrinkles and our friendship and laughter are real.
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And life for 60 just keeps getting more interesting.
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I'm Constance Bauer.
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And I'm Lori Dube.
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And we'll be your host for Real Talk about life, love, health, friendship, parenting, sex, and more for women 60 and beyond.
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No filter, just facts, feelings, and fun.
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Because getting older doesn't mean fading out.
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It means showing up fully for all of it.
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And we'll explore everything from hot flashes to hot dates together.
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Hi, WADY listeners.
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Welcome back.
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So glad you're here.
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We're excited today to talk to our guest.
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Constance, who do we got today?
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Well, today we're thrilled to be meeting with Pro-Age Beauty Advocate Elise Harris.
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Elise is an international makeup and hair artist with decades of experience and a diverse clientele that has included celebrities, fashion beauty brands, even indie films.
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And she's contributed to iconic advertising campaigns and has worked with some of the world's most influential fashion, fine art, and beauty photographers.
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But currently, she is the director, producer, and veteran hair makeup artist behind the award-winning documentary Your Roots Are Showing, which explores the global silver hair movement and challenges societal ageism and sexism.
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Welcome, Elise.
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We are so thrilled to have you here.
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Thank you so much.
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I'm thrilled to be here.
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That is great.
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You know, we love on this podcast to talk about later in life career pivots.
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And, you know, you spent over 45 years as a high-profile international hair and makeup artist.
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You worked with icons like Anna Wintour, which I'm very jealous, and Gloria Steinem.
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Um, what was it like transitioning into, you know, first-time documentary filmmaker at age 65?
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What was that like?
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Steep learning curve?
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Oh, yes, a big learning curve.
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Um, and I would say that it wasn't a career transition so much as um a progression.
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Even though I've done hair and makeup for so long, the industry has changed dramatically from when I started to when I morphed quite spontaneously into a filmmaker.
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It wasn't a decision that I made, it was just an idea that I had.
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And I think the aging piece is that you realize it's now or never.
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And I can't get it wrong.
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If it doesn't work out, it's not gonna work out.
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But I the idea was so powerful, and I thought the subject was so important that I didn't spend a lot of energy thinking about what I didn't know how to do.
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I love that, Elise.
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The idea, was there an do you think at 45 you could have had that mindset that if it doesn't work out, if it's not, if it isn't right, it's no big deal.
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Well, me, yes.
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That's kind of the way I roll.
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You know, anything I've ever done in my career was kind of uh, you know, I was just winging it.
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I was it just jumped in the deep end.
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And um, so that, yeah, but at 45, different place in life.
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I had two kids at home and all the things.
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So at 65, there was a little more space to, you know, jump into a very deep end.
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And a little less stress about if this is not going to work out financially, right?
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You don't have two kids you're supporting or going to college.
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So yeah, maybe it's a little easier with the age piece too, in that way.
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Yeah.
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And I I really did make it on a shoestring.
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I made most of this with my phone, and so much of the content was submitted by women who were willing to self-record their own.
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I did not realize that part of it.
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You know, before we transition, which of course we're we're here to talk about mostly about the documentary, but I want to ask you one or two questions, if we could, about your sort of, I mean, the uh career before you morphed into this part, the hair and makeup career.
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Like, who was your most intimidating icon that you ever did makeup or hair for?
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Oh, wow.
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There were a lot, you know who it was?
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Who?
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Kathleen Battle.
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Really?
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Why?
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Well, she was notorious, first of all, for you know, eating hair, making people and spitting them out.
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I mean, only opera diva ever fired from
Load full transcript
the Met for her attitude.
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So she was intimidating.
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But, you know, at that point, it was a challenge for me not to do her hair and makeup, but to deal with her personality.
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So I kind of like those challenges, even though you know it can be exhausting.
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And did you win her over?
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Was it successful?
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I did because I worked with occasions, and I did get a lovely thank you note from her at one point.
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So these was hair and makeup something you played around with when you were a little girl?
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Very much.
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So this hair, very curly, very curly.
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It was tremendous uh in terms of the curliness and the volume.
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And this is, you know, before there was leave-in conditioner.
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So I did spend the better part of my childhood trying to get it straight, which was informative now that you know I look back, how I wound up here.
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Yep, that is it's crazy all the years.
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I mean, my hair is pretty naturally straight, but I had a daughter, very, very curly, same thing, just spent years trying to get it straight until we realized wait, this is so beautiful.
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Let's try to get it curlier, right?
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What what product can we get to make it curlier?
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So, yes.
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What is a beauty trend currently that you wish would disappear forever?
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Well, we're back on the uh super skinny.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You know, that that's very uh disturbing.
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I know I had such hope, you know, about 10 years ago when all these people were coming out curvy models and curvy this and that.
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It was so hopeful.
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Now it seems to be swinging back the other way.
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Why?
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Well, you know, it swung too far.
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Some of these curvy influencers were really beyond curve and they were unhealthy, and a few of them passed away as a result of their obesity.
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So then it swings back.
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So I kind of love for us to get rid of the extremes and just settle into something that's normal.
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Right.
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They were all just lumpy and bumpy and just normal people, right?
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We're not, yeah, yeah.
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It's really a shame.
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You know, with with even the obsession
with facial surgery, and I'm not saying no to any procedure, but the obsession.
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Yeah.
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That's that's a problem.
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We spend too much of our real estate in our heads thinking about what's wrong with ourselves, thinking about it.
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And then it becomes, yeah, you just keep going and going and going.
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Yeah.
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What were you gonna say, Laura?
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Just we're gonna talk a lot today about hair and gray hair or silver hair, whatever um we're gonna call it.
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But I think also wrinkles is another thing that, you know, right up there with hair that is, you know, people are fighting the whole aging process and um yeah, the the idea what what we can do around exceptions.
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But I think it's all tied together in this whole film.
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So let's let's since we've all been waiting for this, let's get into it a little bit.
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This film has been praised as heartwarming and empowering.
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You know, I was really moved in a way that I didn't anticipate.
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You know, I was just gonna watch it so like be educated before I interviewed you, but it was really moving to me, but also educational because I didn't realize you were gonna do a lot of this historical piece.
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So I learned a lot.
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So why don't we just take turn it over to you?
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Tell us a little bit about the documentary.
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Well, I saw what was happening, which was basically with the pandemic, more and more women were forced to confront their great roots.
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And more and more women said, Hey, wait a minute, what are my priorities?
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You know, we were in the pandemic, everybody's priorities took a big shift.
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And at the same time, it was more uh social media happening where people were spending more time on social media, and they were watching these influencers document their grow out.
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And so the social media provided this visual roadmap, and so I saw this happening after my my own experience of being silvering for 20 years already and hearing from so many women about why they couldn't stop dyeing their hair and what their fears and anxieties were.
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And I just saw this thing happen.
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Do you remember that?
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I remember just watching these women with the hair going down, down the line, going down thing, like, what are they doing?
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Yeah.
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Right.
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And and what was fascinating to
me as I paid attention to it, was the hair was almost a gateway to other things that would happen to women psychologically.
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They would get this new ownership, or or they would meet themselves.
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It would, that's why it's your roots.
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It would like they were coming home to whoever they were were.
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And yeah, and then confronting like what had they been hiding and why.
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And so I wanted the film to be joyful and I want it to be fun, and I knew it was gonna have a scrappy quality because I was using my phone for the most part, but I thought that's an advantage because we see so much that's very produced and very slick and very polished and very perfect.
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So I wanted this to be the opposite, which was very real.
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So where am I going with this?
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I I love but to stop for that for a minute because I just love the whole concept of that.
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That the point is, you know, we're looking at people who are all airbrushed now.
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And so you're doing the opposite thing, you know, looking at people who aren't airbrushed with a technique that wasn't airbrushed, that wasn't, you know, super slick and professional.
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Perfect.
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And I think it makes the women more relatable.
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Everybody in the film is somebody you might know somewhere.
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Um, the other part was that women who have uh chosen not to cover their gray have been judged really harshly over the years.
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So I didn't want to flip the script and make women who choose to cover their gray with joy or or thinking about not covering their gray or are never gonna think about not covering their.
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I didn't want those women to feel judged or intimidated.
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At least can I ask you?
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It was in your bio where you said you used the phrase cover your gray and versus dye your hair.
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Those seem like they're subtle but very different.
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Can you grab it?
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Right.
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So can you talk about a little bit of your your your wording of cover your gray, your choice to cover your gray?
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Well, um, you can dye your hair as a mode of self-expression.
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You could make it a fun color, you could add highlights, you could add low lights to you know, bring out dimension in your hair.
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But covering gray is a very specific thing.
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And that's on some level hiding.
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And on some level, for most women, it's not a comfortable, joyful process.
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Where for many women, dyeing their hair is a joyful, colorful process where they can be more of who they really are, or they can change at a you know pivotal point in life, go blonde, go darker, just have some fun with it.
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But covering gray, I wanted to isolate that from the the big pool of I think you're the first person.
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I've never heard that distinction before, but it makes a lot of sense to me because I see a lot of women who've gone or let themselves go gray, but then they have, you know, pink and purple and things, but right, that's still dyeing your hair, but it's not covering the gray.
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They're expressing themselves.
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And I think I came to this because in all of my years doing makeup, um, there was always a like in a commercial sense, this idea about covering our flaws, you know, fixing the problems.
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And I never really approached it that way.
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I wanted to, I didn't want to conceal, I wanted to reveal.
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And sometimes the way you reveal it.
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There's our bumper sticker, Lori.
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We're always looking for bumper stickers when we're talking to people, but there it is.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, how can I reveal what's beautiful about someone?
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And yeah, that might mean I soften some things that maybe they're not happy with, or I feel distract from their better features, but that's a reveal, it's not a conceal.
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It's not a conceal.
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That mindset is one that I applied to the whole hair dye.
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I like that.
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Can we go back to the film for a minute?
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But you were starting to say something that I really appreciated when you were talking about this in several interviews.
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I heard you say this about you were trying not to, for those of us like me, as nobody can see because we're not on video yet.
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Hopefully, we're going to at some point.
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But I've let the first quarter of my hair go my natural white, the rest I do cover.
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Um, and so for people like me, I do often feel judgment from women who don't cover their grays.
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And some of that is, I think, internalized pressure myself, but some I do feel even a community where going gray is much more the norm here, the community I'm in.
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And I do feel sometimes judged for the fact that I do choose to cover my grays.
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So I appreciated in the film that came
through that there wasn't a judgment about this.
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Yeah, I mean, there's too much judgment all the way around, and and that's not going to uplift us, you know.
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And I think that's part of the pro-aging idea to, you know, lift each other up because the constant judging and tearing one another down doesn't benefit anybody.
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It's like the worst of a mean girl junior high sentiment.
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Right.
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And that's what society was already doing to us about our hair, anyways.
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We shouldn't be doing it to each other.
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I mean, why do you think that society views a woman embracing her natural gray as a sort of a radical political act rather than just a cosmetic choice?
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I mean, why should it have to be that way?
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Well, it is, unfortunately.
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And it is in a good way, you know.
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Well, first, can I just say something about your hair?
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It's beautiful.
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And I look at what you've done, and I see that as something intentional.
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But very intentional.
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My intention during COVID was to do what everybody else did, but this direction, I was gonna go back across my head instead of down, so I didn't have that big line.
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And then I ended up just stopping it at this point for now, but we'll see.
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But you've played with it, you've taken and made it more of what it already is by you know making the back a little darker.
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So I think it's great.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Yes, I think it's cool that it's just an option that people would allow themselves, you know, and whether it's play, I love consists.
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I didn't know that about you.
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I'm not gonna let it go from the roots down, I'm gonna go from back, and that's why I'm gonna let it go gray.
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I mean, just you know, I always have to be a little different, so there.
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But I love that about you, and I think that just like that opens the door to the possibility for women.
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It doesn't have to be one or the other.
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One or the other.
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No, people notice all the time and ask me about it.
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You know, Elise, you mentioned in other interviews that the concept for your film was a little bit unusual.
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It literally downloaded into your brain through a vision.
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Can you tell
us a little bit?
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So that's really the truth.
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I was it was about 65 years old, right about there, and I was having one of those nights where you just don't even sleep.
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And uh I could tell the dawn was upon us because it was creeping in from the window.
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And I really just sort of said to the universe, I need a project.
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And uh it really hit me like like lightning.
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And I felt something while I was half asleep that was visceral.
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It was it was in my mouth, and I said, Okay, I'm getting a message.
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What is it?
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And uh they were little vintage baby blocks that spelled your roots are showing.
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That's what I saw in my mind's eye, and it was so clear and so unnegotiable that I knew, okay, I'm making a documentary about this moment.
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And I said to my husband, guess what?
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I'm gonna make a documentary.
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He's like, Okay, good.
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You think you were nuts?
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Yes, of course.
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But um, you know, he's used to me, you know, having these ideas that might, you know, take over my life for a few years.
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And yeah, it was a bit obsessive, but I knew it was important and I knew I could do it.
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I just had to figure out how.
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So it came out though fully formed like this just the idea to see and with this double entange about the roots and the whole thing was there.
00:16:53.519 --> 00:17:02.080
Oh, also, you know, the journey that women go on when they go through this process, they are coming home to their roots, they're getting rooted.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.079
And a number of times in the process, people say, I don't know about that title.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:06.880
I think you should go.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.519
I was like, that is the title.
00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:10.559
That is the title.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.680
At least can I ask you?
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:21.759
Because I'm so interested in the whole spirituality thing, in terms of visions before or messages before, or have you seen the blocks before?
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.160
You know, I have never seen the blocks before.
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.119
But what have you seen?
00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:31.680
Um I do keep my eyes open for uh signs and omens, and and I have had prophetic dreams.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:47.440
Yes, um, you know, it's not a a big um everyday kind of thing, but I would say I'm pretty uh intuitive and um bit empathetic, you know.
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:48.000
Yeah.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.000
So I think that's surely the case.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:58.319
I mean, I did for years, actually, you know, between the ages of 20 and 30, I did not have a television and you know, I didn't have the internet.
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:02.079
And so I spent a lot of years reading uh metaphysical books.
00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:02.319
Yeah.
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.880
Everybody was in New York City at the time.
00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:09.359
There was a store called Samuel Weiser, and it was all of that stuff.
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:15.359
And I would just go in there and wait for something to you know fall off the shelf, and I would get that, you know.
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.200
So there was that uh period of time where I kind of developed.
00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:19.759
Yeah.
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:21.839
You're speaking Lori's language now.
00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.200
You are tell us a little bit about this.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:41.039
You know, like if you were inclined to believe these things or live this way, you know, you wouldn't say it because you're a judge, you'd be written off as being a little less um you know so and oh, incredible.
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:43.039
And now, who cares?
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:44.000
Good.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.079
I'm gonna I'm a good wish, you know.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.519
Maybe you're right.
00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.440
Maybe I'm clearly in this case you were because it was prophetic.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.519
So tell us a little bit to me.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.839
I mean, there were so many interesting parts about the film, but one of them was the history of all of this because I didn't know.
00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:06.480
I mean, I thought I did know some of it, but I don't think many of us understand the history of this graveolution, uh, if that's what they're calling it.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.319
So tell us a couple, just a couple factoids maybe about the history.
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:15.759
Well, of the movement of um women embracing their hair or hair dye, which goes.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:17.119
Hair dye, hair dye.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.160
Well, you know, I had to research this because I didn't really know, but I thought, how do we get here?
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:22.640
Yeah.
00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:30.799
You know, this is a big industry, but clearly women have been playing with their appearance in cosmetics since forever, the beginning of time.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:37.680
And so, yes, the ancient Egyptians wanted their hair to be darker black because that was a status symbol.
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:44.880
You know, we've always used appearance to you know project certain things, status, whatnot.
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:49.599
So they used the blood of black animals, thinking that would make their hair dark.
00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:54.880
Umward, you know, blondes were very desirable.
00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:07.920
And during the Roman Empire, the prostitutes were required to have blonde or golden
hair because it uh made them, you know, more desirable or alluring, but it also um made them identifiable.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:21.759
So hair's always been a big identifier, and manipulating it one way or the other really does, you know, it's the first thing you see when someone walks in the room, kind of.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:22.079
Yes.
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:24.960
And you're ever in a picture, you go, how's my hair?
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:25.359
You know?
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:26.480
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:26.799
You're right.
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.400
before something, you know?
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:31.920
Have you ever heard this?
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:41.279
I this was not in the film, but I read this someplace that in the 18th century women, I think men too, but women wore those big wigs to cover their grays when they got older.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:57.039
And the the wigs were coated with lard to hold it in place, which attracted mice, so they would sleep with cages over their heads to protect these wigs, which I thought was crazy, but it's no crazier than us putting toxic chemicals on our head, right?
00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:57.680
Oh, yeah.
00:20:57.680 --> 00:20:59.440
We also used mercury.
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.000
Um, they would lose lead.
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.960
Uh, it was just just awful.
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.640
And not that it's any better now.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:14.799
You know, these chemicals that are in hair dye now and straighteners, and for women who do both, particularly women of color, it's a toxic brew.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:24.240
And um I didn't want to hammer that because we all do toxic things, but you know, I thought it was important to look at it with a very broad brush.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.480
The history of hair dye, the beauty industrial complex, where do we get our ideas?
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:37.119
Because I wanted the film to be about hair, but that's merely a portal to talk about.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:38.319
The story.
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:38.720
Yeah.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:41.920
How have the corporate beauty brands reacted to your message here?
00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:42.480
Do you know?
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:46.880
Well, there are a number of beauty brands who are now, you know, it's follow the money.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:58.079
There's a number of brands who've sprung up to address the needs of silver hair because gray hair does have different needs, and women want to take care of their hair.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:00.960
So there's been a tremendous Tremendous shift.
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:05.839
As a matter of fact, L'Oreal, you would think, you know, the nemesis.
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:15.359
Um they have developed an entire educational program so that colorists can learn how to help women transition using gray.
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:16.160
Really?
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:21.680
Yeah, because for a lot of women, growing out a whole head of hair dye is not the end of the story.
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:28.880
A lot of women get to that place and maybe their hair is a little blah, you know, and maybe they want it to be a little different.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.359
And so gray blending is the answer there.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.039
And so gray blending.
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.200
Tell them what is that exactly?
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:39.759
Well, let's say your hair is and you're growing it out.
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:41.519
Now you got this skunk stripe.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:41.920
Yeah.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.960
You don't want this harsh line of demarcation.
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:51.440
So a gray blending specialist will analyze the gray pattern that's there.
00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:58.079
And using a whole host of techniques, depending on what they're dealing with, they'll add lowlights and highlights.
00:22:58.799 --> 00:22:58.960
Okay.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.039
I want to do this so bad.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:05.680
We we had an episode with Stephanie Odell, who I think you know, celebrate the gray.
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:09.039
And she gave us the name of some woman who's famous, I guess, for gray blending.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.319
And I'm trying to get in touch with her.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:11.680
She's in California, unfortunately.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.799
But if I have a trip out there, I may do a visit to her about this.
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.279
Yes, that's that's uh Farah Hurdle.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:18.559
Yes, yes.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.839
She does gorgeous work, and she's a nice person.
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:23.839
And she's an educator now.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:24.880
And you know what?
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:29.119
There's some of these gray blending artists that you see that are very theatrical.
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:33.119
Woman walks in one thing, she goes out, she looks like a movie star with silver hair.
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.200
Well, forget it, because they don't look that way in a month or two.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:37.599
Right.
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.640
I was gonna say, then you just become a slave to doing that part of it too.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:43.440
Is that a thing?
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:50.480
Where your hair, like you let your hair go gray, and then you're not happy with the gray, so you end up doing tinkering with the gray.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:51.359
That's a thing too.
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:56.240
Well, yeah, it's not that you're not happy with it, but maybe you want to enhance it a little bit.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:05.039
Maybe you just when my my hair first started growing out, and it wasn't really growing out from a whole dye thing, you know, I'd used a semi-permanent once or twice.
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:17.119
Anyway, so when enough gray had come in, my base color had lost some vibrancy because you know, we're losing the melanin all around, and so the whole head
might be a little blah.
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:21.599
And so at that point, I just got some low lights, meaning the opposite of highlights.
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:29.839
I just got these dark streaks that ran through the whole head, and that just you know brought it back to having some style and some pizzazz.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:41.519
So gray blending is is wonderful, really, because it also um there's less dye on the scalp, so it minimizes some of the health risks.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:46.079
I love yours because it's got the white and the gray, which I've never seen before.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:47.839
It's got both mixed in.
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:49.039
And check this out.
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.079
I wish somebody oh my goodness, you're totally black underneath.
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:53.519
Yeah, it's all dark.
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:56.720
Sometimes when it's longer, I wear it up and I've got the whole two-tone.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:57.920
Is that normal?
00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:59.920
I mean, is that does that happen frequently?
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:09.440
As a matter of fact, who we were just discussing, Farah Hurdle, she likes to call it peep people's animal print because everybody's very individual.
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:11.839
What their patterns are another thing.
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:20.559
Women will see, maybe you know, they'll see their hairline if they grow it out a little bit and they go, well, it's not very attractive, or it's not, it's not flattering.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:24.880
Well, they have no idea what the pattern is all over their head.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:31.440
They might have some really fabulous streaks, or they might have like dark underneath, they might have a pattern, you know.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:37.759
And the younger you are when you quit the dye, the more you can appreciate and enjoy those patterns.
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:38.640
Patterns.
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:39.920
They're called animal patterns.
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:40.480
I love this.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:41.200
Animal patterns.
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:43.599
Another thing to research, Lori, we got to figure out.
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:43.839
Yeah.
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:45.680
So I know you love animals.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:54.559
You know, of all the individual hair stories that you captured in the film, was there one that really moved you or surprised you or just stuck, stuck with you?
00:25:54.880 --> 00:26:00.559
There are so many, and and we had to, you know, edit 18 hours of video.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:00.880
Wow.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:04.079
So people gave me a very long life story.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.920
And I think the woman, there was two.
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:21.519
The woman, she's sitting on her bed and she's kind of full figured, and she just talked about she was dying her hair from the time she was a teenager, and at the same time, she was getting a curvy body, and it was just so awful for her.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.839
And it was just so awful.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:33.119
Uh, you know, by the time she quit dyeing her hair in her 30s, very much because her husband helped uh encourage her, which is great.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:40.319
Yeah, she stopped wearing all the baggy clothes and she was able to embrace her body, and that's very powerful.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.920
So she was very, you know, that that that really got me.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:51.440
And then the other woman who opens the film and closes it, she's another young woman dyeing her hair from the time she was in middle school.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:57.279
She just follows through her whole life, and it was just heartbreaking, truly.
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:03.039
You know, what her mother was that's the woman who took whose mother took her, right, when she was 14 to the oh that one.
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:08.319
And so then, you know, she goes off to university and her mother can't dye her hair anymore.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:09.839
She can't afford it.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:18.000
So she volunteers as a model, you know, at hair salons, and she has to go in there and let them do her hair however they want.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:24.640
So she had every color in the rainbow because they're learning on her, and it destroys her hair.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:28:01.759
And then she has her first child, and then you know, she's got to deal with the roots, and her mother would travel up to dye her hair, and she's got a kid, and then she got a second kid who had some issues with his hearing, and so she had these health concerns, and then comes COVID, and she was working in a grocery store during COVID, really like stressing out about her kids and COVID and working in the public, you know, and for her, all of a sudden, all these other things finally trunked the need to cover her.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:02.240
Great.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:08.240
And the shocking thing, because she's blonde anyway, the shocking thing was nobody cared.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:09.839
Nobody looked at her.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:12.319
I mean, what she had spent her whole life.
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:18.160
Yeah, agonizing about how crazy that it took all of that, right, to get her to that place.
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:29.279
I mean, that did actually, that was one of the parts where I think I was moved to tears when she was just talking about how when her mom took her for the hair appointment when she was 14 and she was so anxious about other people seeing her.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:34.079
And I thought, this is like we we we've lost the we've lost the point here.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:43.440
And you know that other thing, I don't know if you remember, she's sitting there, and a girl in the other chair is given a really stern warning who wants to dye her hair black.
00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.720
No, you don't want to do this.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.039
But nobody had that conversation
with her with her.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:54.000
Covering the grays was she had to not only acceptable, but yes, but what had to be had had to happen.
00:28:54.640 --> 00:29:00.240
Can I ask you how how are we oh I was just gonna ask, how are how can people watch the the movie?
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:08.799
The easiest way to find the film is your rootsar showingfilm.com, which we will have in the show notes for sure.
00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:09.359
Great.
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:11.759
That is the easiest way to find it.
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:28.799
But there's another another place that I'm gonna put in the film in the show notes as well that Stephanie, who we've already just talked about, Odell, that we interviewed, is scheduled to be a co-panelist with you and Jackie Getz, who was another one of our interview guests, for an on-demand screening of the documentary.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.200
And there'll be a subsequent QA session.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:32.400
This is through Sanctuary.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:37.039
So people who don't know that it's an online magazine all about empowering, you know, inspiring women.
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:40.079
So that's going to be going on for like the month of September, right?
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:41.279
I think into October.
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:44.400
I will tell you, it starts uh September 12th.
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.400
And what's particularly nice about that offering is two things.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.799
One, you can watch it at your own time.
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:51.359
Okay.
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.039
There's a three-week window.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:03.440
It's the same price as if you go to my website, but the first 20 people to buy tickets are actually going to get a gift from Hair Story, which is a fabulous hair brand.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.640
They're going to get their startup kit, which is worth $69.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:13.119
And then you have this Zoom panel conversation that'll be October 14th.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:14.960
And there's some terrific panelists.
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:16.640
Oh, these powerhouse women.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:16.960
Yeah.
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:30.960
You know, Jackie Getz, the deep style, and Farrah Hurdle, the gray blinding artist, and Stephanie Odell, and myself, and a psychologist, because this is this is a psychological issue.
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:31.359
Yes.
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:32.240
All right.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.920
I'm signing up as soon as we as soon as we're off of here because I want to be one of the first 20.
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:44.960
So you know, I feel like did I recognize, I'm pretty sure I recognize some of the women in the documentary as models from Stephanie's Celebrate the Gray.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:46.400
Could there have been some crossover?
00:30:46.720 --> 00:31:07.039
Yes, you know, it's kind of uh the movement has certain players in it, you know, and the women that are in the film uh
that kind of work with Stephanie came to me versus because I was all over the internet and I was looking at influencers and content creators to see who I liked, see who I could invite to be involved.
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:08.799
And so there are a few of them.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:09.279
That's great.
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:13.519
I was like, I'm pretty sure I'd recognize them because I'd just been looking at Stephanie's site and I thought so.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.920
So yeah, I mean, what's the energy like in the rooms?
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:20.400
They've been having all these independent film festivals and screenings at community centers.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.599
I mean, is it great?
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:23.359
It's terrific, let me tell you.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:36.000
And um, when people are in the room and watch it together, there is an alchemy because there is something, there are many topics that we hit on that a lot of people relate to and didn't even know.
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:48.400
Like, wow, you know, how our mothers influence the way we feel about ourselves and about what we think is beautiful and what was wrong with us or what needed fixing, you know, and whether we're gonna dye our hair or not.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.319
I think our mothers are very involved in that.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:50.640
Yeah.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:32:00.079
A lot of mothers who might be of a certain age who are dyeing their hair, the last thing they want is their daughter to be gray and they're got some other color.
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:01.279
Um, and you know what?
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:02.960
I didn't answer this question.
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.000
What makes not dyeing your gray hair political?
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:17.200
It is a statement against a patriarchal society that is male-dominated, which is the definition of patriarchy.
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:19.759
Um it's we understand what you mean.
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:20.400
Absolutely.
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:32.960
I remember my father would not allow my mother that my parents were divorced many years ago, he would not allow her to come down if she didn't have her hair all, you know, always dyed, but but done, coiffed, you know, couldn't come down even for breakfast.
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:36.799
He wouldn't allow her to have breakfast.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:45.759
Yeah, that's kind of just my father who I love very much, who's passed away recently, but that was one of the that was part of the patriarchy, and he it was just the norm again.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:46.640
So yeah.
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:50.480
Yeah, and it's it's also a pushback against an age of society.
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:56.400
Yes, yes, you know, we're saying, no, you know, we're getting older and we're gonna be good with that.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:57.759
And what's wrong with that, right?
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:07.519
I mean, I feel like we talk about that a lot on this podcast, which is yeah,
we do all these things to avoid getting older or to pretend we're not getting older when we should be saying, like, what's so wrong with getting older?
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:08.000
Right?
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.519
It's a good thing, it's a blessing.
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.200
What about the disconnect?
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:13.279
Yeah, you know, there they would be.
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:18.720
I sometimes think, what would it be like if you didn't see yourself in a mirror for decades?
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.880
And then one day you saw yourself.
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:21.759
The shock.
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:27.599
Well, in a way, not watching your hair transition through life sets up a weird disconnect.
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:33.759
Not only do you not know what you look like, so many women have no idea what color their hair actually is.
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:34.319
Wow.
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.119
Strange for me and a little disconcerting.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.400
But then it becomes the disconnect in our appearance.
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:51.920
If we do all these patchwork things to make ourselves look younger, younger than who, but younger, then at some point it just looks like the puzzle pieces don't fit.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:52.559
Don't fit.
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.799
I think I've heard you say that about facelips.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:56.799
And when you said it, I thought that's exactly right.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:57.759
I don't have any problem.
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.799
I have many friends who've had them, and it's fine if that's what you want to do.
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:05.680
But I've thought about it when I look at people, I think there's something I can't put my finger on.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:06.559
That's that's what it was.
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.000
It's a disconnect because they don't look like the age that I know they are, and there's this weird disconnect.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:15.119
They don't look bad necessarily, but they don't look their age.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.280
But why do we aspire to that?
00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:18.000
Why?
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:21.119
You know, and some of it's a very patriarchy again.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:26.880
You know, I often say, you know, I separate eyelashes for a living, and so I do look at it closely.
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:36.400
And if I see a face that is just so taut, and then I see a neck that's crinkled, I I go And the hands, the hands are always a giveaway too.
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:40.559
You know, like where do we where do we draw these lines?
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:50.000
I mean, and there's a big buffet of options, and some of them are good and fun and doable, and maybe they make us feel good, but then you know, why?
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:50.800
But why?
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.440
And which ones and how often and why?
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:54.320
Oh, it's a sort of sort of thing.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.400
It becomes a slippery slope, right?
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:59.440
And we can't stop death, which is what I mean.
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.760
I know that's what it's about for me a lot of the times.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.840
It's like trying to think I can be the one to avoid the end, but but you can't.
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:17.760
So, you know, what is your advice to somebody, you know, f like me, who wants to ditch the die, but you know, I'm going really slow here because I'm terrified of the things you said, even though I'd like them not to be true.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.800
I know society will make me invisible.
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:24.079
I know that the patriarchy will make me less relevant.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:28.159
I all those things will happen when I do ditch the die completely.
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:29.119
So, what's your advice?
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.239
It's a movement.
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:35.199
This is a movement, and the more women do it, the more, you know, what was her name?
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.239
Diana Vreeland, very famous Vogue editor.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.039
She had this phrase, the eye has to travel.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:45.599
And that means we need to look at something long enough to normalize it.
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.079
I mean, think about the first time we saw skinny jeans.
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:49.679
Oh, weird, terrible, da-da-da.
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:51.440
Wears them.
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:55.519
And then come wide leg, oh, weird, terrible, you know, oh, they're great.
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:58.400
We have to get used to the the look of things.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:04.400
So the more women, particularly, I might add you, Constance, very attractive women, do it.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:07.360
We change the we change the narrative.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.079
And the more younger women do it, the more we see it.
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:14.239
We can see it for what it is, which And I think a lot of younger women are doing that now.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:19.840
And I'm really proud of you know my daughter and and their generation, because I do think they're saying that.
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.360
Look, we're gonna be the ones to really do this in a big group.
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:29.039
So they can't there can't be this kind of discrimination when it's a whole group of people doing it like this.
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:32.960
Yeah, and then we can you know take away the associations.
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.480
Gray equals very old and decrepit.
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:36.719
Right.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.559
Well, it doesn't at all.
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:44.159
What if it just meant just a reasonable level of maturity, which starts in our teens?
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:44.800
Correct.
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:45.519
And wisdom.
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.519
I mean, and there was a time when that was true.
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:57.039
When we talked to my mom
about this, you know, she's able to say, you know, when when we all started going gray, I mean, she went very early, which is why she dyed it, and my dad, as I said, required it.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:01.599
But when she reached the age and all her friends were going gray, they all just went gray.
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:02.880
It wasn't really a thing.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:08.239
People didn't dye their hair, they went gray, and all women in their 60s were gray.
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:10.159
And it was just the way it was.
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:14.000
And so it wasn't, there wasn't enough as much stigma, I think, about it.
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:19.039
One of the things that really bugs me, and I know you've talked about this, but is about the double standard, right?
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:26.000
So men with gray hair are what silver foxes, distinguished, all the different words they say to the George Clooneys of the world, right?
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:32.719
What did your research into this history of hair dye reveal about like how deeply ingrained is that double standard?
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:34.559
Well, it's very deeply ingrained.
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:35.760
I think everybody knows it.
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:49.599
And if you really you look right in the the below the surface, what it's about is it's by forcing women to look young forever and making that the ideal, it disempowers women.
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:58.079
And the men who can mature, be distinguished in silver foxes and and all of that, they stay in positions of power.
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.559
And if we're just young and cute, well, that's all we are.
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:05.280
Well, there it is, just layered in for us.
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:14.159
Yeah, that's why I end the film with that glorious dinner quote because she knew it, you know.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:17.679
Women really should be running things, yeah.
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:20.639
And then we'd all be gray, right?
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:21.760
And be very happy.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:32.320
We'll be you know, we'll be it will be a better balance, you know, more things will be taken care of if women are in those seats of power.
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:37.599
Well, here's hoping, and maybe that's a nice place, Lori, to come in for a landing.
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.079
Can you believe this that I'm saying?
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.679
But that just seemed like such a perfect place to pull things together.
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:50.800
But before we end, I tried this alone, Lori, the last episode when we weren't on there, but I'm gonna try it again because I kind of liked it.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:52.880
This is I saw this on another podcast.
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.440
Okay, I have quick, like maybe three.
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:59.199
Three quick, these are quick, not long inches, rapid fire questions for you.
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:01.519
Just answer in like one or two words, right?
00:39:01.519
--> 00:39:02.159
Okay.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.960
If you could have dinner with any historic feminists, who would it be?
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:10.000
Oh, it would be back to Gloria Steinem.
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:11.599
Me too.
00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:12.719
How do we do that?
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:13.440
Can we do it?
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:14.079
I don't know.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:14.719
I want to do it.
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:17.360
I've done her makeup, you know, so I would like to see her again.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:17.840
Wow.
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:18.480
Oh, that's right.
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:19.039
I knew that.
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:19.440
Okay.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:25.440
Maybe she'll hear this and she'll want to have dinner with us because I would love to have dinner with her.
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:26.480
Let's see.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:28.639
I've got a whole bunch of these, so I can only get three though.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:33.280
Um, what is the number one myth about gray hair that you want to bust?
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:35.679
That is old and ugly.
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:36.719
Good one.
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:38.400
Here, here, here, here.
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:49.199
All right, we're gonna end with this will be a lowball one, but this is because I want to really get people to be watching this film because I think it's important and moving and interesting and educational and all those things.
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:53.599
So describe your film's ultimate message in three words.
00:39:53.599 --> 00:40:01.039
Informative, uplifting, empowering.
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:04.079
I would absolutely agree with all those.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:05.119
That moving.
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:08.000
I would add moving too, because I was very moved.
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:08.559
Thank you.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.280
I cannot thank you enough for being with us today, Elise.
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:13.119
Oh, it's so good to be here.
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:14.079
This was great.
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:17.440
I'm getting off to sign up right now for the documentary viewing.
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:19.840
You're gonna love those hair care products.
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:21.280
Oh, that sounds perfect.
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:23.599
Okay, and please stay in touch with us.
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:24.480
I will.
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:24.880
All right.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:25.360
Thank you.
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:25.840
Good luck.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:26.320
Thank you.
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:27.199
Take care.
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:28.559
Bye-bye.
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:32.639
Hi, WADY listeners.
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:33.760
Thanks for staying with us.
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.199
Um, we're just gonna take a quick conversation, a quick walk around the block.
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:43.280
Um, I just actually got back from a long trip, but I'm a little jet lagged, and um, so I don't have a ton of energy um to bring it up.
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:46.800
Like I said, she just flew in from Switzerland and her arms are really tired.
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.760
That was like a dad joke that my dad used to say out.
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.039
That is a dad joke.
00:40:51.280 --> 00:41:08.000
But I do wanna I do think, you know, like all of you, we Constance and I both have been thinking about our hair and our own hair journeys, and um this certainly is um evoking lots of feelings, this whole concept of whether we should cover our gray hair.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:09.599
I love that distinction.
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:16.559
That is really good distinction because my thought always was if I do go totally white, I am gonna be one of the old ladies.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:22.719
I want to do like pink and purple and things like that, because I like my hair has always been a self-expression place for me.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:28.559
And I don't I felt like when I went gray or white for me, it would be the end of that, but it doesn't have to be.
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:30.320
Yeah.
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:37.920
You know, I I am actually more attached to the volume of my hair than the color of my hair.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:39.199
I want to shout out uh.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:40.079
What do you mean?
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.239
Um say that I mean by the volume.
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:51.599
I mean, I've been let I've been letting my hair go gray now, I want to say, for probably I'm 65, at least for maybe 10 years.
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:51.840
Okay.
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:53.199
And this is all brought on.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:59.920
I want to just shout out my friend Mary Beth, who who started this movement when we were pretty we were young women.
00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:06.480
Um, but the idea she ended up becoming a um uh like a model for older women.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:09.760
She's beautiful, so um but she let her hair grow curly.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:14.719
She she wasn't with Stephanie, she did this years ago when she probably started when she was 50.
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:27.840
But um, so I've always also been attached to my hair, but mostly because it was like very big and curly, and it was something noticeable about me.
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:36.480
Um over time my hair has gotten thinner, and it doesn't stick out as far, you know, from my head.
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:37.599
And that's it.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.599
I just always assumed you cut it that way.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.760
I didn't realize it did that on its own.
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.360
No, it it's do it it's it's doing it on its own.
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:51.440
And I realize that what's it you know, I mean I'm very attached to the size of my hair more than the color.
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:56.719
So honestly, this conversation is a little like it hasn't been painful for me to let my hair go gray.
00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:57.039
Uh-huh.
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:03.760
Um, and
over ten years, you know, it's still kind of taking its time, but it's clearly not it's clearly not dark anymore.
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:09.199
Um, but not fully gray, but it's more the volume of my hair that's there anything they can do.
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:14.480
I mean, I don't know, my hair's got too much volume, so I've never looked into this, but isn't there something they can do to create volume?
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.519
There's all kinds of shampoos I always see that create volume.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.320
I think there's like meds you can take and vitamins you can take.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:22.159
That you wouldn't want to do, but I meant yeah.
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:23.039
Not shampoo.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:27.199
I I they see these volumizing shampoos everywhere they talk about doesn't work.
00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:27.920
Not really.
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:28.400
Not really.
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:29.039
Okay.
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.360
Um well then that's another acceptance piece.
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.800
Maybe we need to have somebody on talking about the volume of hair to talk about that.
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:39.119
If that's no, I just think our hair is our hair's changing in lots of ways.
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:43.840
This right, besides just being um the color, which is sort of the first thing.
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:47.519
Well, I would say mine also mine hasn't changed in volume, to be honest.
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.239
It's still too voluminous, and I'm always fighting with that.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.039
But what has changed is the texture.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:58.800
I my hair was always very um, you know, it once I if I blow dried it, it was very silky and smooth.
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.880
If I did blow dry it, it was Wavy but not kinky.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:14.400
But now I've gotten you know the white part of my hair is very kinky, which and I have to like use stuff to blast it down to my head because otherwise it's sticking up like a crazy person all over the place.
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:19.599
So I think, yeah, I mean all kinds of things happen when you get older that you don't know is gonna happen.
00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:30.400
I just found a big white hair, not pubic, don't think I'm gonna say that again, which I always bring up, but I found a big white hair under my chin the other day, and I thought, for God's sake, how long has that been there?
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:33.760
Why isn't Neil or one of my friends said something about it?
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:37.039
It was really long, so it couldn't have been just from two days ago or something.
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:38.480
And nobody said anything.
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:40.880
I had this big long white hair under my chin.
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.679
Is that gonna be the new version of spinach in your teeth?
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:46.239
Your good friends tell you when you have a long hair growing up.
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:52.719
I actually had an agreement with my daughter when they lived at home about this, but they're not here anymore, so they don't do it for me.
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:58.559
But I think we should all do that for each other, because who wants to walk around with a big white hair under I mean, maybe that's another thing.
00:44:58.559 --> 00:44:59.440
We just have to accept.
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.639
Like, okay, who cares if there was a big white hair under my chin?
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:05.199
But I'm not ready for that acceptance yet, I don't think.
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:07.840
That just seems like I'm not sure our daughters want a piece of that either.
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:10.000
I mean, I would I remember that with my mom.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.480
I I didn't love being being in charge of that.
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:14.320
Being in charge of plucking her hair.
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:18.000
No, I loved her in many ways, but that I didn't that was not one.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:23.760
I my my mom never asked me to do that, but I did have to cut my dad's toenails, and I was not a big fan of that, I have to say.
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:24.800
But I did it.
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:25.360
Wow.
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:27.119
That was a lovely thing to do.
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:42.000
So but I think this hair thing, as she said, and as we've said before, it's emblematic of so many other pieces, as you even brought up in this one, like we've got wrinkles, our boobs are traveling south, our you know, hair is getting kinky and less volume.
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:44.880
It's just about you know acceptance.
00:45:44.880 --> 00:46:00.000
Yeah, it all goes lead back to acceptance, I think, and finding your way there some more quickly than others, and some taking our pokey time to get there, but hopefully we're all just working on it at least, thinking about it, talking about it.
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:12.960
And maybe if we can find just i accepting that it's changing, but also a place of like comfort and even maybe joy wherever it is we are.
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:25.679
I mean, I think of our interview with Jackie, um Jackie Getz, who talks about, you know, she she uses clothes as a metaphor for, you know, so many things about growth and evolving and loss and everything.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:35.519
But the idea that um I mean we accept, but even maybe embrace this is what what is beauty now.
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:36.079
I know.
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:39.519
You know, not just oh, it's not what it used to be.
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:41.840
But like that is so hard for me.
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:44.800
But it's one it's something I try to do almost daily basis.
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:54.800
Like I'll look at other people who are older and have accepted that because they're wrinkled and gray, whatever, and I think I think they're beautiful, but I don't think that when I look at myself.
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:56.800
I d I just it's hard.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:03.440
So I am learning to do that, but it is not an easy process, I don't think, and society is certainly not helpful to us.
00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:07.599
Although hopefully things that she said are changing in our daughter's generations.
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.480
It's only like our physical parents.
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.639
If I can just say I was just on this really lucky, beautiful hiking trip.
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:19.440
And um, yeah, at 65 I can't I can't do what I've done.
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:19.920
Right.
00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:22.239
Um, and I still want to do.
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:30.719
And in my mind there was a lot of feelings around why can't you do as much as you you know you think you should do.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.320
So these self-critical thoughts about that you should be able to do more.
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:34.719
Right.
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:36.880
So maybe we can say, I don't care about my gray hair.
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:43.840
Look at I'm I'm easy breezy about aging, but you know, but when I couldn't get up the big hill, I was there's nothing easy breezy about me.
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:45.119
Or or my thoughts.
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:55.679
We each have all different battles to, you know, but but hopefully you're right, on some of the grounds, some of the fronts, we're doing better than others, and maybe it's about giving ourselves some grace too about the places we're not doing so well.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:01.840
I mean, we're about to leave on a big biking trip, and I think I'm on the verge of saying I'm gonna do the e-bike.
00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:08.559
Because I'm looking and I'm thinking, right now I don't I've had some setbacks physically and you know, medical stuff going on.
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:14.320
I thought I don't think I can do this in a joyous way, the way I want to do it on a regular bike.
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:18.320
So I'm gonna make that decision, and yeah, part of me feels like a weenie.
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:21.360
And why, but then I think, yeah, why should I?
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.199
Who am I comparing myself against who?
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:23.679
Right?
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:24.079
Right.
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:34.400
But I I did think about what you said, and I was thinking more about which way is gonna bring me more joy right now, not where I want to be, but right now, and I thought I think the e-bike's gonna bring me more joy at the moment.
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:39.199
So I think I'm gonna do it, and I'm pretty psyched about having come to that decision, you know.
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:40.559
That's a big deal.
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:47.440
I know, you know, letting yourself do something easier without it having to mean a whole bunch of things.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.000
Yes around decline and y opening the door to death and all that stuff.
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:57.840
But that's gotta be part of it because I'm thinking now
as you said this, if I had been younger, I would have made that decision in a second.
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:05.519
If I had been 40 and had a bunch of medical setbacks going on and going on this trip and I had to decide, I absolutely would have said, Oh yeah, I'm going on an e-bike.
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:09.440
Not that they had e-bikes then, but I would have said that because it didn't mean the same.
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:11.360
I didn't realize it till you just said that.
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:13.119
It didn't mean the same thing to me.
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:17.920
Then it would have been like, okay, it's a temporary thing because I have some stuff going on and I will go back to my norm.
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.079
This feels to me like a slippery slope.
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:21.679
Like if I do this, that's it.
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:24.880
The rest is gonna start going downhill too if I give into this.
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:26.400
That was oh, thank you.
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:35.920
That was a big Well that kind of relates to remember a while ago I tripped and fell in a restaurant with my son, and I said, like, oh my god, I'm I'm getting so old, what's wrong with me?
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.679
And he's like, Mom, I fall.
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:44.719
People fall, you know, and it's like, oh, I'm just assuming because it's happening now, I'm in, you know, the slippery slope of decline.
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:48.639
And actually, it's just my foot was caught on the syrup on the floor of the pancake house.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:49.599
Yep, yep.
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:51.679
So it is yeah, it's a tricky time.
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:52.400
This is tricky.
00:49:52.400 --> 00:50:03.199
This is why we have the podcast to talk about these things, but trick balance accepting the things that are about aging and dealing with them, but not attributing everything to aging because it isn't all about that.
00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:08.079
It's yeah, it is a tricky time, and I think I have a feeling it just gets trickier.
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:10.719
You know, it's not like then it's we're gonna coast.
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:14.239
So, like we're just we're just putting on our training, our tricky training wheels.
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:15.440
Oh boy.
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:19.119
Thanks, Lloyd, for ending with that hi, hi note.
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.519
All right, take it easy.
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:23.280
WADY listeners, thanks for going to the show.
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:26.480
All right, take care everyone.
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:27.599
All right, bye, WADY.
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:31.519
You've been listening to We Ain't Dead Yet.
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:33.199
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00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:36.719
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00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:39.440
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00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:41.199
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00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:43.679
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