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WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.820 --> 00:00:03.810 Hello, I'm Corinna Harrod and this is the Monday Night Review. 2 00:00:06.150 --> 00:00:17.910 Hello and welcome to episode 229 of the Monday Night Review. 3 00:00:17.949 --> 00:00:19.329 How are you all doing? 4 00:00:29.469 --> 00:00:31.350 I have had a bit of a rubbish morning. I'm 5 00:00:31.390 --> 00:00:34.380 not going to lie. I don't want to sugarcoat things, 6 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:40.399 but also I'm aware. Please let me know. Please know 7 00:00:40.439 --> 00:00:43.079 that I'm aware of how this sounds because it is 8 00:00:43.140 --> 00:00:48.679 a luxury to spend Monday morning in bed. I've been 9 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.280 really struggling to get out of bed recently. Now, people 10 00:00:51.299 --> 00:00:55.369 with depression will know that that is... I don't necessarily 11 00:00:55.409 --> 00:01:01.869 feel particularly depressed, but it is... So hard. And I 12 00:01:01.909 --> 00:01:03.570 know that lots of people say, well, of course it's 13 00:01:03.729 --> 00:01:05.530 very hard to get out of bed. Lots of people 14 00:01:05.549 --> 00:01:07.349 would stay in bed if they could. Not the same. 15 00:01:08.129 --> 00:01:12.590 Not the same. It's a bit like when you are pregnant. 16 00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:15.439 There's a certain tiredness you get when you're pregnant. It 17 00:01:15.459 --> 00:01:18.659 doesn't mean that you're tired than everyone else. But there 18 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:21.120 is a feeling behind the tiredness when you're pregnant. A 19 00:01:21.219 --> 00:01:26.260 desperation behind the tiredness when you're pregnant. And then again, 20 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:32.109 there's a specific... desperation of tiredness when you have a newborn, 21 00:01:32.290 --> 00:01:36.390 which everyone goes, well, you know, everyone's tired. I think 22 00:01:36.430 --> 00:01:38.150 the thing that we overlook is, yes, when you have 23 00:01:38.170 --> 00:01:42.870 a newborn, you're very tired, but also your body has 24 00:01:42.950 --> 00:01:47.189 just gone through the equivalent of a car accident. And 25 00:01:47.469 --> 00:01:52.640 most people, if they'd been through that physical experience, would 26 00:01:52.700 --> 00:02:03.040 be sent to bed for a I'm not saying anything, 27 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:06.420 you know, I'm just saying at the moment, I'm finding 28 00:02:06.459 --> 00:02:07.939 it really difficult to get out of bed and I 29 00:02:07.980 --> 00:02:10.080 don't really know how to fix it. I'm a fixer. 30 00:02:11.060 --> 00:02:16.750 I like to work out systems of how to make 31 00:02:16.789 --> 00:02:20.389 things better and I just don't know. Now, obviously, I've 32 00:02:20.430 --> 00:02:24.270 had two weeks of kids home for half term. My 33 00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:28.789 husband's here today. Tomorrow, he'll go to London. I've got 34 00:02:28.830 --> 00:02:31.750 a work event. I've got three kids to get to school. 35 00:02:32.389 --> 00:02:34.270 So there'll be no option to stay in bed. And 36 00:02:34.289 --> 00:02:37.669 maybe that's what I need, the no option. Once I'm up, 37 00:02:37.729 --> 00:02:42.430 it's fine. It is literally the transition from bed to 38 00:02:42.469 --> 00:02:47.349 dress that I just dread every day. So that's where 39 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:52.159 we are. And also what I hate is it's a 40 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:55.060 waste of a day. Monday is quite a good work 41 00:02:55.099 --> 00:02:59.419 day for me because, as I said, Joe's here. So 42 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:01.680 I can quite often hole up in my office. He's 43 00:03:01.699 --> 00:03:05.319 a very good feeder. So he'll make lunch. He walks 44 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:07.699 the dogs. So I can get some solid work time. 45 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.300 And I've just, it feels like such a waste. It's 46 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:14.360 part of the reason, part of the reason I don't 47 00:03:14.379 --> 00:03:17.530 go out all night anymore is that I remember the 48 00:03:17.590 --> 00:03:21.629 last time, well, the last couple of times I was 49 00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:26.759 up when the sun came up. And I just thought, oh, 50 00:03:26.770 --> 00:03:30.120 this is so depressing. Something so depressing. You get to 51 00:03:30.139 --> 00:03:32.099 a stage where you're like, oh, the birds are singing. 52 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:37.330 This is too much. And I don't know what did it, 53 00:03:37.340 --> 00:03:39.530 because I used to love staying up all night. And 54 00:03:39.569 --> 00:03:42.229 I do get to a certain point. If I don't 55 00:03:42.270 --> 00:03:45.909 go to bed between 10 and 11, I sort of, 56 00:03:45.949 --> 00:03:49.270 my brain starts going, right, well, let's get loads of 57 00:03:49.289 --> 00:03:52.370 stuff done while everyone else is asleep. Let's huddle down 58 00:03:52.969 --> 00:03:56.919 and side quest all over the internet for weird shit. 59 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.900 Which works well if you're doing this podcast. Anyway, enough 60 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:07.580 of my woes. I hope everyone has had a good Halloween. 61 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.860 I'm going to call it a Halloween break. I know 62 00:04:10.900 --> 00:04:13.939 that not everyone has kids. Not everyone likes Halloween. But 63 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:18.680 I feel like because of Halloween, people sort of take 64 00:04:18.699 --> 00:04:21.759 their foot off the gas a little bit. My kids 65 00:04:21.810 --> 00:04:29.350 love Halloween. So we had a great Halloween. And... We 66 00:04:29.370 --> 00:04:36.139 did the pumpkin patch, which they love. And the kids 67 00:04:36.180 --> 00:04:39.319 had parties, Halloween parties. And my sister and my nephews 68 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.160 and my brother-in-law were down for a week. So we 69 00:04:42.180 --> 00:04:44.189 did lots of stuff. We went and saw the new 70 00:04:44.250 --> 00:04:49.430 Ghost movie. Oh my God. The new Ghost movie. I 71 00:04:49.470 --> 00:04:52.990 thought I wasn't going to

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like it. I lolled. Never 72 00:04:53.029 --> 00:04:56.329 laugh out loud at films. But I laughed out loud 73 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.139 at this one. It's really nice. If someone said, we've 74 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:01.959 got to go again, I'd happily go again. I thought 75 00:05:01.980 --> 00:05:07.569 it was really good. So that's my film recommendation. If 76 00:05:07.589 --> 00:05:11.170 you've got... I mean, my nine-year-old loved it. My 14-year-old 77 00:05:11.189 --> 00:05:15.490 loved it. It was great. I loved it. I'm 43. 78 00:05:15.490 --> 00:05:18.189 So we did some nice stuff. We still haven't got 79 00:05:18.209 --> 00:05:21.759 the heating on. How's everyone else doing? My husband just 80 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:24.399 looked at the price of oil and was like, it's 81 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:26.740 the highest it's ever been. 82 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:27.079 Woo-hoo! 83 00:05:28.029 --> 00:05:30.769 No heating on for us. We've got lovely fires throughout 84 00:05:30.810 --> 00:05:33.149 our house though, so we'll probably start. We lit a 85 00:05:33.170 --> 00:05:38.329 fire last night. It was my eldest's 14th birthday yesterday. 86 00:05:39.170 --> 00:05:42.410 So we snuggled in. All the boys have been really 87 00:05:43.129 --> 00:05:48.040 into the traitors. So they watched the traitors and snuggled 88 00:05:48.139 --> 00:05:54.100 in and we lit a fire. And that was quite 89 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:58.009 cosy and nice. also have to say a huge congratulations 90 00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:03.339 to pod member uh stacy on the arrival of her 91 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:07.779 lovely little bundle over on halloween i think a halloween 92 00:06:07.819 --> 00:06:13.199 baby uh so well done stacy giving birth is not 93 00:06:13.220 --> 00:06:15.939 for the faint of heart and i hope you're in 94 00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:20.610 a nice baby bubble i the problem with having kids 95 00:06:20.649 --> 00:06:22.779 birthdays is is that we spent quite a lot of 96 00:06:22.819 --> 00:06:25.620 time looking at all his previous birthdays on my phone. 97 00:06:25.699 --> 00:06:31.939 I just searched up November 1st. And I mean, whoever 98 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:40.040 said the greatest superpower, or someone said one day with 99 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:45.420 each of your babies as babies, but you know now 100 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:46.879 what you know now, if you see what I mean. 101 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:53.620 So it's stress-free. And there's one particular picture of my child, 102 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:57.819 my eldest, and I can remember taking the picture. I 103 00:06:57.860 --> 00:07:02.319 can exactly remember the day. And because the nice thing about, 104 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:05.100 because I've got one autumnal baby and two summer babies, 105 00:07:05.620 --> 00:07:10.139 the nice thing about an autumnal baby is you kind 106 00:07:10.180 --> 00:07:13.779 of get sorted for Christmas. You're a bit more up 107 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:18.079 and running by Christmas. So you can do Christmassy stuff. 108 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:21.680 I mean, my husband, we had a Christmas drinks party 109 00:07:23.939 --> 00:07:27.540 when my newborn was about five weeks old so I 110 00:07:27.779 --> 00:07:31.439 was definitely up and running but we we did a 111 00:07:31.579 --> 00:07:35.620 lot when they're tiny I wish also I wish I 112 00:07:35.670 --> 00:07:38.149 knew this you don't have to leave the house with 113 00:07:38.170 --> 00:07:41.730 them and do everything when they're tiny because they'll want 114 00:07:41.750 --> 00:07:43.870 to leave the house and do stuff for the rest 115 00:07:43.889 --> 00:07:49.550 of their lives so when they're newborn newborn we just 116 00:07:49.629 --> 00:07:52.639 and with my first one because it was dark and 117 00:07:52.939 --> 00:07:58.459 wet and horrid, we just snuggled and watched ITV3 dramas. 118 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:06.870 There was a lot of Agatha Christie, Midsommar Murder, probably 119 00:08:06.910 --> 00:08:10.949 quite a lot of Murder, She Wrote. And we just 120 00:08:11.029 --> 00:08:15.129 snuggled in and I had my dog mouse, Pot Dog One, 121 00:08:15.730 --> 00:08:19.569 who was a dream, loved the baby. It was her baby, really. 122 00:08:20.459 --> 00:08:23.540 So we would just, the three of us, sit on 123 00:08:23.579 --> 00:08:28.720 the sofa, all coached in, and watch it. And at 124 00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:31.129 the time, your brain tells you these terrible things, like 125 00:08:31.149 --> 00:08:34.850 you're lazy, or you should be doing stuff. I mean, 126 00:08:35.210 --> 00:08:39.529 I think also, 14 years ago, Instagram was a different beast. 127 00:08:40.409 --> 00:08:43.639 So you didn't necessarily have people showing you their best 128 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:48.080 of reels. There was more food in general. And you saw... 129 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:50.100 your friends' posts, so you were like, oh, I like 130 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.620 this person, I'll follow them, oh, and then I'll see 131 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:56.169 their posts, what a novelty, so all of that, but 132 00:08:56.210 --> 00:09:00.009 I just had this always feeling of, I should be 133 00:09:00.049 --> 00:09:01.750 doing more, I should be achieving more, I should be, 134 00:09:02.210 --> 00:09:04.590 and I'm not very good at just being, even though 135 00:09:05.789 --> 00:09:07.169 that's what I want to be doing all the time, 136 00:09:07.190 --> 00:09:12.409 it's just lying on the sofa watching ITV3, so I 137 00:09:12.450 --> 00:09:19.720 can remember that day incredibly vividly, and Yeah, just one 138 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:24.720 day with each of your babies as tiny babies. Knowing 139 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:27.340 now what you know now and having your shit together. 140 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:30.679 That would be pretty unbeatable. So, say, see, I hope 141 00:09:30.700 --> 00:09:35.269 you're in a baby bubble. You'll have plenty of time 142 00:09:35.289 -->

00:09:38.490 to get that. I mean, I will say, my baby's 143 00:09:38.570 --> 00:09:42.649 napped outside in their pram. My baby's napped outside. Their 144 00:09:42.669 --> 00:09:45.669 daytime naps were outside in their prams, whatever the weather. 145 00:09:46.250 --> 00:09:46.450 And.... 146 00:09:48.460 --> 00:09:50.539 We did get some fresh air every day because that 147 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.259 was part of the good thing about having the dog. 148 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:59.490 I think Joe took three days paternity leave for our 149 00:09:59.549 --> 00:10:02.320 first one. so I was up and out and walking 150 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:06.379 the dog and that is quite good because it means 151 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:09.879 we used to go out go around the park back 152 00:10:09.980 --> 00:10:15.320 in job done so yeah get out a little bit 153 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:19.820 if you can but don't feel bad for Lying around 154 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:26.549 with the baby. Because you need it. So yes. We've 155 00:10:26.590 --> 00:10:29.409 had a very Halloweeny time. We go trick or treating 156 00:10:29.429 --> 00:10:31.830 around the village. One of the things that makes me 157 00:10:31.850 --> 00:10:33.909 feel guilty as a mother. Is we moved from a 158 00:10:33.950 --> 00:10:37.789 place in London. Our street in London. And the surrounding 159 00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:41.399 streets in London. Were absolutely American level crazy. For trick 160 00:10:41.419 --> 00:10:45.980 or treating. And my kids are obsessed with Halloween. And 161 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.860 we've moved them to a village. Which is very good. 162 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:48.950 But. 163 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.259 In rural terms, very good village for trick-or-treating. But we 164 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.350 are on the edge of the village and trick-or-treaters don't 165 00:10:56.389 --> 00:10:58.750 come down here. So I think the boys feel a 166 00:10:58.789 --> 00:11:01.929 little bit like they would like trick-or-treaters to come to us. 167 00:11:01.990 --> 00:11:04.710 But anyway, my mum lives in the village. So we 168 00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:09.110 walk up the hill, go to my mum, say hi, 169 00:11:09.269 --> 00:11:12.009 and then we trick-or-treat round. She likes to hand out 170 00:11:12.029 --> 00:11:14.389 sweets at her house so that she can see what 171 00:11:14.409 --> 00:11:17.820 the kids are wearing. Because also for her... When she lived, 172 00:11:18.220 --> 00:11:20.539 before she moved, she lived on the other side of 173 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:22.980 the village. And so she never had trick-or-treaters when we 174 00:11:23.019 --> 00:11:25.220 were young. We never went out trick-or-treating and it wasn't 175 00:11:25.259 --> 00:11:29.769 such a big deal. So she's now, it's her first 176 00:11:30.110 --> 00:11:33.210 trick-or-treating house as well. So she likes to see what 177 00:11:33.230 --> 00:11:37.049 all the kids are wearing. And then she makes us 178 00:11:37.090 --> 00:11:40.690 a delicious supper and we play Halloween bingo, which she 179 00:11:40.710 --> 00:11:43.509 bought in Sainsbury's and is a real banger. We all 180 00:11:43.529 --> 00:11:47.879 love it. So that's become a really nice Halloween tradition. 181 00:11:50.139 --> 00:11:52.879 And then the next day is my baby boy's birthday. Also, 182 00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:54.460 we had to spend the whole of Halloween with me saying, 183 00:11:54.580 --> 00:11:59.879 this time, 14 years ago, which the child is very 184 00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:02.919 tolerant about, but it just blows my mind to have 185 00:12:02.940 --> 00:12:05.990 a 14-year-old. He's about to edge up taller than me. 186 00:12:06.889 --> 00:12:09.169 I mean, I've got a couple of centimetres on him, 187 00:12:09.190 --> 00:12:13.519 but it'll happen before I know it. And what I... 188 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:17.120 quite like about this time of year, it's very uncool 189 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:23.059 of me, it's very, I'm a pro-animal person, pro-people person, 190 00:12:24.500 --> 00:12:28.039 I love fireworks, I love bonfire night, I love fireworks, 191 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:29.620 and again, I think part of that comes from when 192 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:33.259 the kids were little, and you have Halloween, and they 193 00:12:33.299 --> 00:12:35.600 were so obsessed with Halloween, so there's this pressure to 194 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.299 do it well, and their costumes right, and decorate the 195 00:12:39.340 --> 00:12:42.659 house enough, and even during COVID, I made a COVID-friendly 196 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.669 Halloween trail for all the kids at school so that 197 00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:48.889 they were in groups of five and they were safe 198 00:12:48.970 --> 00:12:52.870 and everything like that but just because they loved Halloween 199 00:12:52.889 --> 00:12:55.769 so much it felt unfair that they should miss out 200 00:12:57.750 --> 00:13:00.259 and then it would be my eldest birthday and there's 201 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:02.100 all that pressure to make sure he has a good 202 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:04.139 day and he gets what he wants and all of 203 00:13:04.179 --> 00:13:07.120 that and then I would and I would just find 204 00:13:07.139 --> 00:13:12.779 that by bonfire night I would be so up for 205 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.820 standing next to a bonfire watching fireworks. And our house 206 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:20.080 in London was opposite a park that had the best 207 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:26.379 fireworks display ever. It was so good. And we could 208 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:30.139 sit in what was our bedroom and then later became 209 00:13:30.179 --> 00:13:34.370 my son's bedroom on the toppish floor of our house. 210 00:13:34.509 --> 00:13:36.450 We could all sit on the sofa in a row 211 00:13:37.110 --> 00:13:40.149 and get free fireworks display. And it was so good 212 00:13:40.169 --> 00:13:42.669 because when the babies were little, when

we moved to 213 00:13:42.710 --> 00:13:46.049 that house, Ned was two. Ned was two and a half. 214 00:13:46.429 --> 00:13:49.610 Jim was nine months. Jack didn't exist yet. And so 215 00:13:49.629 --> 00:13:51.250 you sort of don't want to be taking them out 216 00:13:51.269 --> 00:13:55.419 for a bonfire night at that age. But we could 217 00:13:55.460 --> 00:13:58.159 just sit there and watch it. And it was so fun. 218 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:02.440 And then bloody COVID. They stopped doing it and they've 219 00:14:02.500 --> 00:14:05.090 never started doing it again. Made me really sad because 220 00:14:05.299 --> 00:14:10.169 one of the first things I remember doing with Joe 221 00:14:10.210 --> 00:14:12.070 when we first met, we first met in the summer. 222 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.440 And that autumn, he had friends that lived in houses 223 00:14:15.460 --> 00:14:17.240 around the park and they used to block it off 224 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:19.419 so that you had to go through a certain gate 225 00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:22.500 to get in with your ticket to the fireworks. But 226 00:14:22.539 --> 00:14:24.570 because we knew a friend who lived on the park, 227 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:27.490 we could go through and they would have drinks at 228 00:14:27.529 --> 00:14:30.129 their house and we'd all stand in their garden and 229 00:14:30.169 --> 00:14:32.850 watch the fireworks. And it was just one of those 230 00:14:32.929 --> 00:14:35.769 things that when you're in your early 20s and your 231 00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:38.490 cool London boyfriend's got these friends and you can go 232 00:14:38.509 --> 00:14:40.820 and watch the fireworks, it was really, it's just a 233 00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:45.340 really seminal point of, my relationship with Germans oh they've 234 00:14:45.379 --> 00:14:48.940 stopped it no joy I was reading about it to 235 00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:52.799 see whether they'd started it again and they said that 236 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:57.419 in 2000 2023 they tried to do a ethical laser 237 00:14:57.460 --> 00:15:02.779 show a light show but that didn't take off so 238 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:05.700 they only did it once and I totally get that 239 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:10.039 there's animals I lived with my pod dog one absolutely 240 00:15:10.090 --> 00:15:13.289 hated fireworks and would spend quite a lot of October 241 00:15:13.309 --> 00:15:16.490 and November with a sock over her ears. If you 242 00:15:16.529 --> 00:15:18.220 do have a dog that doesn't like fireworks, I do 243 00:15:18.250 --> 00:15:21.860 recommend chopping the toes off a sock. Then you can 244 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:24.539 put it over their ears and it keeps their ears 245 00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:27.620 down and it muffles it. It definitely worked for her, 246 00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:31.929 made it better. And I have friends whose pets need Valium. 247 00:15:32.009 --> 00:15:34.190 I totally get it. There's a time and a place. 248 00:15:34.850 --> 00:15:39.549 But I actually think one night, go for it and 249 00:15:39.590 --> 00:15:43.220 then stop but I would say that living in London 250 00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:46.519 during Diwali is noisy for fireworks it's not just fireworks 251 00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:50.220 night and the problem is is that not everyone is 252 00:15:50.259 --> 00:15:52.259 good with fireworks I get it I get it you 253 00:15:52.299 --> 00:15:54.379 don't need to tell me why fireworks are a problem 254 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.100 but I love them I think they're beautiful I wouldn't 255 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.700 mind if they were soundless um I think they're lovely 256 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.580 I think there's something communal about everyone looking at these 257 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:07.799 beautiful things in the sky that we've made I think 258 00:16:07.820 --> 00:16:11.490 they look great from planes I think having a big 259 00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:15.429 bonfire that everyone gathers around, there is something communal and 260 00:16:15.529 --> 00:16:18.549 nice about it that I'm unwilling to let go. And 261 00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:20.129 I think part of the reason I'm struggling to get 262 00:16:20.190 --> 00:16:24.090 out of bed is just everything is so grindingly awful. 263 00:16:24.350 --> 00:16:27.870 Everything is so expensive. It's difficult enough to be living 264 00:16:27.889 --> 00:16:31.970 in this world. Raising children with questions is so depressing. 265 00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:37.870 And when you cut out things like bonfire night, It's like, well, 266 00:16:38.009 --> 00:16:40.289 should we have any joy at all? And I'm aware 267 00:16:40.330 --> 00:16:42.360 that there's health and safety, and I know that animals 268 00:16:42.389 --> 00:16:44.980 struggle and all of that, but is there a middle 269 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:50.179 ground between nothing? Anyway, it's my rant about bonfires, but 270 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.860 I love it. Also, I don't know, Ned was supposed 271 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.159 to be born on the 5th of November, so there's 272 00:16:57.179 --> 00:16:59.950 just this whole, I don't know, I feel very emotionally 273 00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:04.990 attached to Bonfire Night. And I'm sad about it. I'm 274 00:17:05.009 --> 00:17:09.140 going to be away in Harrogate next weekend. So I'm 275 00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:11.500 hoping that Harrogate... Harrogate, are you going to do some 276 00:17:12.220 --> 00:17:15.279 fireworks for me? We're going on a ghost tour on 277 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.569 Friday night and we're going for an afternoon tea. So 278 00:17:19.250 --> 00:17:26.089 there's room, Harrogate, for some bonfire fireworks shenanigans. Just letting 279 00:17:26.109 --> 00:17:32.049 you know. And speaking of that, every year since I 280 00:17:32.089 --> 00:17:34.319 started this podcast, I have meant to do this topic 281 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:38.759 at this time of year And every year I have failed, 282 00:17:38.930

--> 00:17:41.799 but not this year. No, no. And actually part of 283 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:44.140 what's made me feel quite festive is this week I've 284 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.839 been researching this. It felt like a really big topic 285 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:50.579 because we all know how my brain works. It goes 286 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:53.240 out and out and out. Zoom out, zoom out, zoom out. 287 00:17:53.299 --> 00:17:57.079 And I was about to start. We were back in 288 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.920 the depths of the English monarchy for a while there, 289 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.220 but I've clawed myself back. I also feel like when 290 00:18:04.259 --> 00:18:09.069 I do a history subject... I feel like somewhere in 291 00:18:09.089 --> 00:18:13.549 the ether, my father is clutching his head and wondering 292 00:18:13.589 --> 00:18:17.670 where he went wrong with his youngest child. But snuggle in. 293 00:18:18.109 --> 00:18:23.440 Snuggle in. Get cosy. Stacey, get the baby cosy. In fact, 294 00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:26.980 drop the baby off with me and you have a break. 295 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:30.000 I'm a sucker for a newborn. I know that lots 296 00:18:30.019 --> 00:18:35.450 of people can live without the baby phase. Give me 297 00:18:35.470 --> 00:18:40.009 a newborn to nine months and I am in heaven. 298 00:18:42.690 --> 00:18:46.430 It's the night of the 4th of November, 1605. Beneath 299 00:18:46.450 --> 00:18:49.029 the Palace of Westminster in a cellar rented as a 300 00:18:49.109 --> 00:18:51.990 storeroom for firewood, a tall man in a heavy cloak 301 00:18:52.109 --> 00:18:55.849 is checking his work. Stacked behind the logs and bundles 302 00:18:55.950 --> 00:18:59.809 of kindling are 36 barrels of gunpowder, some two and 303 00:18:59.829 --> 00:19:01.990 a half tonnes of it, enough to turn the House 304 00:19:02.009 --> 00:19:04.980 of Lords into a crater. and to hurl its stones 305 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:08.799 across the Thames. In about 24 hours, King James I 306 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.130 will walk into the chamber above to open Parliament. His 307 00:19:12.269 --> 00:19:15.470 eldest son will be with him, his ministers, his bishops, 308 00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:19.490 his judges, and if everything goes to plan, none of 309 00:19:19.529 --> 00:19:21.990 them will walk out again. The man in the cloak 310 00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:26.730 is called John Johnson. He has a slow-burning fuse, which 311 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:29.359 the same could be sent for me, a watch and 312 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.980 a tinderbox. He's been waiting for this for over a year. 313 00:19:33.490 --> 00:19:36.710 He does not know that outside soldiers are already on 314 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:40.240 their way. Today we are going to talk about the 315 00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:44.579 gunpowder plot. How a small band of English Catholics came 316 00:19:44.619 --> 00:19:47.420 within hours of changing the course of history and I 317 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.099 would say the architecture of London. why they are so 318 00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:53.700 desperate to do so and how it all came crashing down. 319 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.680 I bet there are quite a few of you in 320 00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:58.819 the UK who don't know the full story of this, 321 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.029 but also for people who are not in the UK 322 00:20:03.529 --> 00:20:07.019 who maybe don't know what we do, why we do it, 323 00:20:08.650 --> 00:20:12.039 here you go. To understand the plot, we have to 324 00:20:12.099 --> 00:20:15.140 understand the England these men lived in, because the gunpowder 325 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:17.660 plot was not born of madness out of nowhere, and 326 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.960 it was not the only plot at the time. It 327 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.539 was born of fear, grievance, and a very particular kind 328 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:28.750 of hope that curdled. Rewind to the 1530s. I told 329 00:20:28.769 --> 00:20:33.890 you I went back. Henry VIII breaks with Rome. So 330 00:20:33.930 --> 00:20:36.430 he's not only famous for the sheer amount of wives 331 00:20:36.470 --> 00:20:42.150 he managed to get through, but also because he... breaks 332 00:20:42.190 --> 00:20:44.930 with Rome, makes himself the head of the English church, 333 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:48.059 and a country that had been Catholic for nearly a 334 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:53.240 thousand years begins a long and painful wrench. Under his 335 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:57.799 son Edward, the Reformation goes further. Then under his daughter Mary, 336 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:03.660 England swings back to Rome and Catholicism. She famously burns 337 00:21:03.819 --> 00:21:07.990 around 280 Protestants at the stake, earning herself the nickname 338 00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:12.099 Bloody Mary, which you've probably also heard of. I'd like 339 00:21:12.140 --> 00:21:14.920 to note as a sideline that compared to male monarchs 340 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.440 before and after her, she really doesn't kill that many people. 341 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.900 Seems a bit harsh. Also, her sister has a fair go. 342 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.799 So I feel sorry for Bloody Mary. I mean, she 343 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:29.849 did burn a lot of people at stake. But if 344 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:33.930 we think about wars and raged and people beheaded and 345 00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:38.150 that kind of thing, revolts put down, she's really not 346 00:21:39.529 --> 00:21:42.980 doing that much. Then comes Elizabeth in 1558, who settles 347 00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:47.589 the church again as Protestant. For English Catholics, the Elizabethan 348 00:21:47.630 --> 00:21:52.130 decades were a slow squeeze. Attending Church of England services 349 00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:57.289 became compulsory and those who refused, known as recusants, were 350 00:21:57.450 --> 00:22:00.410 fined heavily, a shilling a week at first and

later 351 00:22:00.450 --> 00:22:03.819 far more. And also if you were gentry, you got 352 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.779 fined a hell of a lot. Catholic priests were treated 353 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:10.980 as traitors, saying mass could cost you your life. Hundreds 354 00:22:11.059 --> 00:22:14.819 of priests, many trained at seminaries on the continent, slipped 355 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:18.799 into England in disguise and many were caught, hanged, drawn 356 00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:23.829 and quartered. Ordinary families who sheltered them risked their property 357 00:22:24.009 --> 00:22:26.990 and their necks. There were around 3 million people in 358 00:22:27.049 --> 00:22:32.769 England in 1570. Approximately 40,000 of them were Catholic. Elizabeth 359 00:22:32.970 --> 00:22:36.930 passed the religious settlement where anyone who was appointed to 360 00:22:36.970 --> 00:22:39.990 a public or church office had to swear an allegiance 361 00:22:40.009 --> 00:22:42.369 to the monarch as the head of church and state. 362 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.740 The great houses of Catholic gentry built hiding places for 363 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.960 these priests, tiny cramped chambers behind panelling and under staircases 364 00:22:52.180 --> 00:22:56.180 known as priest holes. Many survive today. A man named 365 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:00.440 Nicholas Owen, a carpenter and a Jesuit lay brother, designed 366 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:03.529 so many of them that he became a legend. He 367 00:23:03.569 --> 00:23:06.470 would later be tortured to death in the tower. Lovely. 368 00:23:07.730 --> 00:23:11.809 And the government had reasons for its suspicion, which is important. 369 00:23:12.150 --> 00:23:17.519 In 1570, the Pope had excommunicated Elizabeth, effectively declaring her 370 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:22.900 subjects free of loyalty to her. And almost saying, although 371 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:29.000 not in a very Catholic-y way, if you're Catholic, I've 372 00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:34.740 excommunicated her. She is therefore a baddie. And you could 373 00:23:34.859 --> 00:23:37.099 bump her off and be doing us all a favour. 374 00:23:37.380 --> 00:23:42.140 And that's probably fine. Plots to assassinate her, like the 375 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:45.119 Babington plot of 1586, were real and they were happening 376 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:48.759 all the time. And in 1588, Catholic Spain sent the 377 00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:54.369 Armada against England. To Elizabeth's ministers, Catholic meant a potential traitor. 378 00:23:54.710 --> 00:23:57.710 To English Catholics, the question was brutal. Could you be 379 00:23:57.789 --> 00:24:01.430 loyal to your queen and faithful to your church at 380 00:24:01.470 --> 00:24:06.079 the same time? Then in March 1603, Elizabeth dies childless 381 00:24:06.259 --> 00:24:09.859 at the age of 69. And there's a whole hoo-ha 382 00:24:10.059 --> 00:24:14.380 about who's... Luckily, she has been quite organised about this, 383 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:20.660 unlike some monarchs. And the throne passes to her cousin, 384 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.680 James VI of Scotland, who becomes James I of England. 385 00:24:25.869 --> 00:24:28.309 And the Catholics dare to hope. 386 00:24:28.329 --> 00:24:28.400 Why? 387 00:24:28.869 --> 00:24:33.420 Because James's mother was Mary, Queen of Scots. a Catholic 388 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:37.980 who had been executed on Elizabeth's orders. James I's wife, 389 00:24:38.180 --> 00:24:42.089 Anne of Denmark, had flirted with Catholicism and James had 390 00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:46.289 sent signals, some of them vague, some of them encouraging, 391 00:24:46.349 --> 00:24:51.890 that he might ease the persecution. He was himself a Protestant, 392 00:24:52.269 --> 00:24:57.480 but his mother was staunchly Catholic and this led people 393 00:24:57.539 --> 00:25:00.279 to hope that perhaps he would be a bit more lenient. 394 00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:04.029 So Catholic gentry even paid their fines that they were 395 00:25:04.049 --> 00:25:08.529 having to pay for not going to church with a 396 00:25:08.609 --> 00:25:12.470 feeling of waiting out the storm. A bit like we're 397 00:25:12.490 --> 00:25:17.470 all feeling now with Donald Trump, just saying. But hope 398 00:25:17.509 --> 00:25:21.900 was short-lived. James was a convinced Protestant and quickly proved 399 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.619 that tolerance had its limits. In 1604, he made it 400 00:25:25.660 --> 00:25:30.980 clear that he'd continue enforcing the laws against recusancy, But 401 00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:35.740 he also made it clear that rather than hanging, drawing 402 00:25:35.779 --> 00:25:38.589 and quartering people, he'd rather they just left the country. 403 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.789 So you were more likely to be shipped out of 404 00:25:41.809 --> 00:25:46.750 the country, banished from the country than killed by James I. 405 00:25:47.430 --> 00:25:50.250 He ordered Catholic priests to leave the country and he 406 00:25:50.589 --> 00:25:54.450 continued with the fines. And for some Catholics, it felt 407 00:25:54.490 --> 00:25:56.990 like a door slamming in their faces just when it 408 00:25:57.849 --> 00:26:02.599 seemed to open. It's in this atmosphere in the spring 409 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.420 of 1604 that a small group of men begin to 410 00:26:05.500 --> 00:26:10.670 talk about something far more drastic than prayer or petition. 411 00:26:13.930 --> 00:26:16.549 The story of the plot is the story of about 412 00:26:16.549 --> 00:26:21.170 13 men. This is not a gang of wild-eyed outsiders. 413 00:26:21.470 --> 00:26:25.619 Most of them were well-born, well-connected and in several cases 414 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:31.150 closely related to each other. The leader, Robert Catesby, was 415 00:26:31.309 --> 00:26:36.869 born around 1573 into an old Warwickshire family, devout Catholic gentry. 416 00:26:37.609 --> 00:26:41.259 Contemporaries describe him as

tall, around six foot two, athletic, 417 00:26:41.450 --> 00:26:46.240 magnetic and charming. He definitely has the charisma of a leader, 418 00:26:46.339 --> 00:26:49.099 which I think is partly why this plot goes so far. 419 00:26:49.539 --> 00:26:52.480 Catesby had married a Protestant heiress, but when she dies, 420 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.359 he goes back to Catholicism in a big way. He's 421 00:26:55.460 --> 00:27:01.599 basically radicalised and that is... modern parlance what this is 422 00:27:01.779 --> 00:27:11.460 we're basically looking at radicalized terrorists he'd been involved in 423 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.460 the Essex rebellion against Elizabeth in 1601 he'd been wounded 424 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:19.210 and heavily fined but escaped with his life it's thought 425 00:27:19.309 --> 00:27:25.279 it's implied basically that his charisma got him through And 426 00:27:25.420 --> 00:27:28.640 through losing his wife and his father, he'd emerged from 427 00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:34.599 it all more fervent and more embittered than before. Catesby 428 00:27:34.660 --> 00:27:37.109 had a gift, the sort of charisma that makes other 429 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:39.970 men follow them somewhere they know they should not go. 430 00:27:40.650 --> 00:27:43.250 One of his fellow conspirators would later say that Catesby 431 00:27:43.289 --> 00:27:45.170 had a way of making you feel that to refuse 432 00:27:45.210 --> 00:27:50.670 him was to refuse God. In early 1604, Catesby gathered 433 00:27:50.690 --> 00:27:54.200 some trusted friends in a London inn, among them Thomas Winter, 434 00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:57.990 an educated, well-travelled man who'd been to Spain in search 435 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:01.900 of help for English Catholics. John Wright, a famous swordsman, 436 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:04.720 not in that way, one of the best in England, 437 00:28:04.819 --> 00:28:08.519 and Thomas Percy, a distant relative of the Earl of Northumberland, 438 00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:11.680 described as a tall, impressive figure, but known for his 439 00:28:11.789 --> 00:28:16.849 hot temper and a reputation for violence. By June 1604, 440 00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:22.029 he held a job as the king's gentleman pensioners, so 441 00:28:22.089 --> 00:28:25.220 basically a bodyguard to the king. And this gives him 442 00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:28.039 a reason to set up a London base and means 443 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:31.519 that he has access to court. When they meet on 444 00:28:31.539 --> 00:28:34.900 the 20th of May in 1604, Percy famously says, quote, 445 00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:39.420 Shall we always gentlemen talk and never do anything? According 446 00:28:39.609 --> 00:28:43.589 to Winter's later confession, Catesby announced his idea to blow 447 00:28:43.650 --> 00:28:46.269 up the House of Lords with gunpowder, with the king 448 00:28:46.589 --> 00:28:49.950 and the lords and the commons inside it. The men 449 00:28:50.009 --> 00:28:53.329 had their doubts. Winter in particular argued that the plan 450 00:28:53.809 --> 00:28:56.170 would be terrible, that it would cost innocent lives and 451 00:28:56.230 --> 00:29:00.049 bring down yet worse persecution on the Catholics, which is 452 00:29:00.150 --> 00:29:06.789 very true. Catesby pressed on and Winter came round. And 453 00:29:06.869 --> 00:29:11.140 now we come to a man whose name, rather unfairly, 454 00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:16.519 has eclipsed the rest. Guy Fawkes, born in York in 1570. 455 00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:19.700 He's raised a Protestant and his father, a legal official, 456 00:29:20.069 --> 00:29:22.329 died when he was a boy. His mother remarries a 457 00:29:22.369 --> 00:29:27.410 Catholic and Guy converts. At about 23, he sold his 458 00:29:27.450 --> 00:29:30.759 inheritance and went to the Spanish Netherlands to fight for 459 00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:35.630 Catholic Spain against Dutch Protestants. So this is the thing. 460 00:29:35.630 --> 00:29:40.150 He's he's not just a converted catholic he is fought 461 00:29:40.430 --> 00:29:44.119 for years for the catholic cause he spent about a 462 00:29:44.150 --> 00:29:46.710 decade as a professional soldier taking part in the siege 463 00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:52.299 of calais in 1596 and he gained something very useful 464 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:56.960 for a conspiracy expertise with explosives and a cool head 465 00:29:57.140 --> 00:30:01.630 under pressure In 1603, he travelled to Spain seeking support 466 00:30:01.650 --> 00:30:04.609 for the English Catholic cause with no success. They basically 467 00:30:04.650 --> 00:30:08.829 tried to persuade the King of Spain to come to 468 00:30:08.950 --> 00:30:14.759 England where the Catholic masses of England would meet them 469 00:30:14.990 --> 00:30:20.400 and then they would take over. But rightly so, the 470 00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:22.460 King of Spain didn't want to. He quite liked having 471 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:26.059 a good relationship with James I, so he thought that 472 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.880 was more important. I think it is a good call. 473 00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:35.619 In 1604, Thomas Winter, who knew him, brought him back 474 00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:38.920 to England to help with Catesby's plan. Now, Fawkes is 475 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.259 an ideal recruit. He spent years abroad, so he's largely 476 00:30:42.380 --> 00:30:46.700 unknown in London. He's a soldier who understood gunpowder, and 477 00:30:46.769 --> 00:30:50.670 he was, by the accounts we have, resolute and deeply pious. 478 00:30:51.190 --> 00:30:54.289 He would move in with Thomas Percy at Westminster, acting 479 00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:59.619 as his servant, taking on the alias, John Johnson. He 480 00:30:59.660 --> 00:31:02.839 became the man trusted with the most dangerous work, guarding 481 00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:06.660 the cellar and on the night, lighting the fuse. Over 482 00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:10.740 the following months, the circle

grew. Robert Wintour, Thomas's brother. 483 00:31:11.140 --> 00:31:15.660 Christopher Wright, John's brother. Thomas Bates, Catesby's servant, who learned 484 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:17.759 to the plot almost by accident and was drawn in. 485 00:31:18.259 --> 00:31:21.829 John Grant, a gentleman from Warwickshire in whose house, Norbury 486 00:31:21.869 --> 00:31:26.009 Manor in Warwickshire, a rebellion was to be gathered. Robert Keyes, 487 00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:30.720 an impoverished Catholic gentleman. Ambrose Rookwood, a young wealthy man 488 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.859 who was a skilled horseman and whose stables could supply 489 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.859 horses for the escape. And Sir Everard Digby, a rich, young, 490 00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:41.750 devout Catholic knight whose money would fund the uprising that 491 00:31:41.769 --> 00:31:46.859 was to follow the explosion. Finally, Francis Tresham, Catesby's cousin, 492 00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:49.440 and as we'll see, a crucial figure in how this 493 00:31:49.619 --> 00:31:53.670 all unraveled. And as for the priests, the Jesuits, Henry Garnet, 494 00:31:53.730 --> 00:31:57.349 the head of the Jesuit mission in England, and Oswald Tessimonde. 495 00:31:58.210 --> 00:32:01.089 learned of the plot in different ways tesman from catesby 496 00:32:01.170 --> 00:32:05.109 in confession garnett from tesman also under what he regarded 497 00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:08.650 the seal of confession garnett according to later accounts tried 498 00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:11.990 to dissuade catesby and wrote to rome asking the pope 499 00:32:12.150 --> 00:32:16.349 to forbid violent action but because the seal of confession 500 00:32:16.630 --> 00:32:19.910 he could not warn the authorities that decision would cost 501 00:32:19.930 --> 00:32:24.769 him his life And here's something I don't think lots 502 00:32:24.809 --> 00:32:28.170 of people think about when we think about the Gunpowder Plot. 503 00:32:28.369 --> 00:32:31.170 What exactly was the plan? It's a plan of two halves. 504 00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:35.019 The first was the explosion. We know about that. The second, 505 00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:38.579 which is often forgotten, is what was meant to happen after. 506 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.839 And partly why it's forgotten is, obviously, we never got 507 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:49.900 that far. In May 1604, Thomas Percy rented a modest 508 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.910 house next to the Palace of Westminster. Remember, he's one 509 00:32:53.930 --> 00:32:57.109 of the king's bodyguards, so this is all completely normal. 510 00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:00.369 And the conspirators' first idea was to dig a mine, 511 00:33:00.390 --> 00:33:05.269 a tunnel, from this house under the House of Lords. 512 00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:09.230 In the winter of 1604, as the story goes... they 513 00:33:09.269 --> 00:33:11.549 begin to dig, and it's gruelling. The walls of the 514 00:33:11.589 --> 00:33:15.869 old palace were

enormously thick, in some places nine feet. 515 00:33:16.410 --> 00:33:20.720 The men were gentlemen, not labourers. By the standard account, 516 00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:23.960 they dug for weeks, working by candlelight and eating cold 517 00:33:24.019 --> 00:33:28.160 food to avoid drawing attention with smoke. Then, according to 518 00:33:28.259 --> 00:33:32.470 Fawkes's own later account, they heard a rumbling noise from 519 00:33:32.529 --> 00:33:36.150 above them. Terrified that they'd been discovered, they sent Fawkes 520 00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:39.170 to investigate. It turns out that it was the sound 521 00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:42.950 of a man clearing out a storeroom, a cellar that 522 00:33:42.990 --> 00:33:46.890 lay directly beneath the House of Lords, which was being let. 523 00:33:47.549 --> 00:33:51.170 This was an extraordinary stroke of luck. Percy immediately leased 524 00:33:51.210 --> 00:33:55.299 the cellar, a vaulted undercroft directly beneath the chamber. The 525 00:33:55.339 --> 00:33:59.539 mine was abandoned. Instead, they'd simply fill the cellar with gunpowder. 526 00:34:01.059 --> 00:34:04.269 Over the following months, the barrels came in. Gunpowder in 527 00:34:04.289 --> 00:34:07.210 the early 17th century was tightly controlled and Catesby and 528 00:34:07.230 --> 00:34:09.889 his men had to source it carefully from stocks of 529 00:34:09.929 --> 00:34:14.260 their own and from other supporters. But because James I 530 00:34:14.380 --> 00:34:18.179 had called off the war with Spain, there was quite 531 00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:22.420 a lot of it knocking around. So they had all 532 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.809 this gunpowder ready for the fight with Spain. The war 533 00:34:25.889 --> 00:34:29.349 is called off. Suddenly you can get gunpowder quite cheap. 534 00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:33.719 By the autumn of 1605, a total of 36 barrels, 535 00:34:33.820 --> 00:34:35.559 around two and a half tons, were hidden in the 536 00:34:35.619 --> 00:34:39.400 cellar and covered with iron bars, stones, firewood and coal 537 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:43.079 to disguise them, and it's thought to add destructive force. 538 00:34:44.059 --> 00:34:49.300 The delay from summer to autumn is crucial. Parliament is 539 00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:53.110 scheduled to open on the 7th of February 1605, but 540 00:34:53.150 --> 00:34:57.030 it kept being postponed from February to July, then July 541 00:34:57.250 --> 00:35:01.260 to October 1605. largely because of an outbreak of plague 542 00:35:01.389 --> 00:35:05.610 in London. And finally, it was set to the 5th 543 00:35:05.630 --> 00:35:10.449 of November 1605. And this gave the conspirators time to prepare, 544 00:35:11.570 --> 00:35:14.050 but it did also give their secret more time to leak. 545 00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:17.340 Now for the second half of the plan. Catesby was 546 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:20.059 not just a bomber, he was planning a coup. The 547 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:22.400 idea was

that on the day of the explosion, a 548 00:35:22.460 --> 00:35:26.059 rebellion would rise in the Midlands, centred on the area 549 00:35:26.139 --> 00:35:29.789 around Dunchurch in Warwickshire, A hunting party would be gathered 550 00:35:30.289 --> 00:35:32.610 under the cover of a day's sport led by Sir 551 00:35:32.690 --> 00:35:37.289 Everett Digby. Meanwhile, a group would seize the king's nine-year-old daughter, 552 00:35:37.369 --> 00:35:41.610 Princess Elizabeth, who was being kept at Coombe Abbey near Coventry. 553 00:35:42.210 --> 00:35:46.889 She would be proclaimed queen with a Catholic regent and 554 00:35:46.909 --> 00:35:51.329 the aim was to install a Catholic-friendly government. As for 555 00:35:51.349 --> 00:35:53.309 the king's sons, Prince Henry the heir would be in 556 00:35:53.369 --> 00:35:56.289 Parliament that day and killed in the blast. The younger son, Charles, 557 00:35:56.530 --> 00:35:59.190 who would then become Charles I actually, was then fought, 558 00:35:59.469 --> 00:36:03.510 who would need to be seized and dealt with. The plan, frankly, 559 00:36:03.550 --> 00:36:06.199 was dark and sketchy at this point and historians argue 560 00:36:06.219 --> 00:36:09.139 about how realistic any of it was. So basically the 561 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.599 idea was dispose of... James I had three children. He 562 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:17.460 would be in Parliament with his eldest son, Henry. They 563 00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:21.400 would both be blown up. Then the next in line 564 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:27.179 is Elizabeth, and she's nine, young enough to need a regent, 565 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:32.480 but also young enough... Also, I think the fact that 566 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.860 she's a woman, even though we've had Mary and we've 567 00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:40.179 had Elizabeth, people would be more up for a woman 568 00:36:40.219 --> 00:36:43.880 having a regent. I mean, a nine-year-old, you're going to 569 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.750 have one anyway, I think, but... she would definitely have 570 00:36:47.809 --> 00:36:51.780 been more malleable. There's another problem that the plotters couldn't ignore. 571 00:36:51.860 --> 00:36:54.039 Parliament on the day would not only contain the King, 572 00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:56.219 the Lords and the Commons, it would also contain a 573 00:36:56.260 --> 00:36:59.860 number of Catholic peers, men sympathetic to the cause, or 574 00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:04.070 at least who were their friends and family. And what 575 00:37:04.110 --> 00:37:06.489 were they going to do about them? Now, one famous 576 00:37:06.510 --> 00:37:09.570 account has Thomas Percy asking Catesby about this and Catesby 577 00:37:09.650 --> 00:37:12.630 replying coldly that they must perish since the good of 578 00:37:12.670 --> 00:37:18.030 the cause outweighed the loss of a few. It shows 579 00:37:18.070 --> 00:37:19.989 the logic of the men inside the plot. It's also 580 00:37:20.329 --> 00:37:24.070 classic terrorism chat, isn't it? And also, I haven't been 581 00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:27.570 able to work out, if Fawkes was going to light 582 00:37:27.610 --> 00:37:30.530 the fuse and then, I guess, hop on a horse 583 00:37:31.809 --> 00:37:34.880 and go as fast as possible, how far is he 584 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:39.139 going to get before it goes? But anyway, this is 585 00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:42.400 a concern for some, not a concern for others, but 586 00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:45.360 it's precisely this worry that could have broken this conspiracy 587 00:37:45.389 --> 00:37:47.780 completely open parliament is due to open on the 5th 588 00:37:47.820 --> 00:37:52.800 of november it's about the 26th of november 605 when 589 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:57.119 william parker lord monteagle a catholic peer and a man 590 00:37:57.139 --> 00:37:59.300 with family links to some of the plotters is at 591 00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:01.900 dinner at his house in hoxton on the outskirts of 592 00:38:01.940 --> 00:38:04.179 london he has been out of the city for some 593 00:38:04.300 --> 00:38:07.139 time and has just returned as he sits down the 594 00:38:07.179 --> 00:38:09.730 servant brings him a letter A stranger, he says, has 595 00:38:09.769 --> 00:38:12.110 handed it to him in the street and told him 596 00:38:12.550 --> 00:38:15.489 to give it to his lord. Monteagle opens it and 597 00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:23.349 it's read aloud. It's unsigned and it's a warning. So, 598 00:38:23.670 --> 00:38:25.010 I'm not going to read it to you word for word. 599 00:38:25.090 --> 00:38:26.780 It's a long document in the English at the time, 600 00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:28.320 but I can tell you what it says. The writer 601 00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:31.460 says he has a care for Monteagle's safety. Out of 602 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:35.440 affection for him, he urges him to find some excuse 603 00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:38.199 to stay away from the opening of Parliament. God and man, 604 00:38:38.260 --> 00:38:40.960 he says, have decided to punish the wickedness of the times. 605 00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:44.659 A terrible blow will fall upon Parliament and those present 606 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.679 will not see who has struck it. The danger, it says, 607 00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:51.670 will be over as quickly as it takes to burn 608 00:38:51.710 --> 00:38:55.110 the letter. And he adds that he hopes Monteagle will 609 00:38:55.150 --> 00:38:57.670 make good use of it. I think it's quite important 610 00:38:57.710 --> 00:39:03.280 also to flag that When you think about it, you think, well, 611 00:39:03.300 --> 00:39:06.969 it's very much Catholics versus Protestants, and all Catholics must 612 00:39:06.989 --> 00:39:09.210 be anti the Protestant king. I don't think that's the 613 00:39:09.250 --> 00:39:11.670 case at all. I think you can be sort of 614 00:39:11.789 --> 00:39:20.170 pro-James I, but not Protestant. And so, Monteagle's alarmed. He 615 00:39:20.210

--> 00:39:22.929 leaves dinner. He takes the letter straight to Whitehall, to 616 00:39:22.949 --> 00:39:27.809 the Chief Minister, Robert Cecil, the Earl of Salisbury. And 617 00:39:27.849 --> 00:39:33.699 that's what I mean. He's got... no... He may be Catholic, 618 00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:36.980 but that's not his first loyalty. Who wrote this letter? 619 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.929 This is one of the great unsolved questions of the story. 620 00:39:40.269 --> 00:39:45.690 The prime suspect is Francis Tresham, Monteagle's brother-in-law, who'd been 621 00:39:45.730 --> 00:39:47.909 admitted to the plot very late, and is said to 622 00:39:47.949 --> 00:39:50.929 be deeply anxious about the fate of relatives amongst the peers. 623 00:39:51.369 --> 00:39:53.889 Tresham always denied it, even in the last weeks of 624 00:39:53.929 --> 00:39:58.110 his life, though he died in the tower in December 625 00:39:58.110 --> 00:40:00.460 1605 before he could stand trial, but he was adamant 626 00:40:00.619 --> 00:40:02.420 to the end that he did not send the letter. 627 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:06.699 Other candidates include Thomas Ward, a servant of Monteagle's, and 628 00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:10.380 Anne Vaux, a devout Catholic woman who sheltered Jesuit priests. 629 00:40:10.860 --> 00:40:13.869 Some suggest Monteagle himself wrote it, or that it was 630 00:40:13.909 --> 00:40:17.130 a piece of theatre arranged by Cecil, the government's master 631 00:40:17.170 --> 00:40:20.969 of spies, to exaggerate a threat. The last theory that 632 00:40:20.989 --> 00:40:23.760 the whole plot was a government invention or provocation has 633 00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:26.960 been put forward many times, and historians have by and 634 00:40:27.019 --> 00:40:32.280 large rejected it. But the question about the letter still remains. Cecil, 635 00:40:32.380 --> 00:40:35.159 once he has the letter, is cautious and he's clever. 636 00:40:35.530 --> 00:40:38.610 He doesn't act at once. He shows it to a 637 00:40:38.670 --> 00:40:42.110 few trusted colleagues, including the Lord Chamberlain, the Earl of Suffolk, 638 00:40:44.449 --> 00:40:46.789 And they agree to wait and see what can be learned. 639 00:40:48.190 --> 00:40:52.230 The king's away hunting and returned to London on the 640 00:40:52.809 --> 00:40:57.210 31st of October. Cecil showed him the letter. Also remember, 641 00:40:57.230 --> 00:40:59.710 this is a time where nothing can happen quickly. The 642 00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:02.230 king is away hunting. That is going to take days 643 00:41:02.289 --> 00:41:04.690 and days and days to get, you know, before the 644 00:41:04.710 --> 00:41:07.849 king arrives anywhere, places have to be set up ready 645 00:41:07.889 --> 00:41:11.369 to receive him. They travel very heavy, very slowly, bad roads. 646 00:41:11.650 --> 00:41:14.610 Just remember that. So he gets back. Cecil shows him 647 00:41:14.630 --> 00:41:18.489 the letter. And here, according to the official story, James I, 648 00:41:18.670 --> 00:41:21.949 who prided himself on his intellect, studied the letter and 649 00:41:21.989 --> 00:41:26.010 drew his own conclusion. The warning of a terrible blow 650 00:41:26.030 --> 00:41:30.309 that would come without seeing who hurt them suggested to 651 00:41:30.409 --> 00:41:35.179 him not a rebellion, but an explosion. Gunpowder, in fact. 652 00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:39.199 The idea in the official version came from the king's wisdom. 653 00:41:41.789 --> 00:41:45.289 Historians are understandably cautious about this. It's very convenient for 654 00:41:45.309 --> 00:41:48.329 the royal image and it may have been polished later. 655 00:41:48.630 --> 00:41:51.630 But what's clear is that a search was decided upon 656 00:41:51.650 --> 00:41:53.369 and that it was done in a way that wouldn't 657 00:41:53.409 --> 00:41:57.889 tip off the plotters. So they clearly thought, let's check 658 00:41:59.210 --> 00:42:05.349 the Houses of Parliament. Let's have a look through. Meanwhile... 659 00:42:05.989 --> 00:42:09.550 In the conspirators' camp, the letter causes panic. Catesby hears 660 00:42:09.590 --> 00:42:11.949 about it, and Thomas Wintour is sent to confirm that 661 00:42:12.010 --> 00:42:15.820 Monteagle has gone to the authorities. The consensus is that 662 00:42:15.860 --> 00:42:19.920 the plot is blown. Catesby is almost alone in believing 663 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.519 it can continue. His reasoning? The letter speaks vaguely of 664 00:42:24.579 --> 00:42:28.019 a blow. There's no names. There's no details. If the 665 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:32.780 authorities knew about the cellar, why hadn't they struck? Cecil's 666 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:36.139 Patience Seems to Catesby to be a good sign. He 667 00:42:36.179 --> 00:42:38.800 doesn't see it in his patients. He thinks, well, they'd 668 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:43.389 be looking already. Catesby sends Fawkes to check the cellar. 669 00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:48.170 Fawkes returns. The powder is undisturbed. The conspirators decide to 670 00:42:48.210 --> 00:42:53.329 carry on. It's a catastrophic misjudgment. The authorities hadn't acted, 671 00:42:53.510 --> 00:42:56.389 not because they didn't know, but because they were waiting 672 00:42:56.429 --> 00:43:00.170 to see. On the afternoon of the 4th of November, 673 00:43:00.550 --> 00:43:03.849 the search begins. The Lord Chamberlain, the Earl of Suffolk, 674 00:43:04.030 --> 00:43:07.769 makes a tour of the Parliament buildings, supposedly checking arrangements 675 00:43:07.809 --> 00:43:10.550 for the King. In the cellar, he finds a tall 676 00:43:10.590 --> 00:43:13.429 man standing among piles of firewood who says he's a 677 00:43:13.489 --> 00:43:18.699 servant of Thomas Percy, who rents that room. Suffolk notes 678 00:43:18.739 --> 00:43:21.059 the large quantity of fuel for a man who seems 679 00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:23.639 to have so little use for it and reports his 680 00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:27.510

suspicions to the King. The King, according to tradition, insists 681 00:43:27.650 --> 00:43:31.000 on a more thorough search. And so shortly before midnight, 682 00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:35.280 a magistrate named Sir Thomas Nivet, with a party of 683 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:38.940 armed men, goes into the cellar. There they find a 684 00:43:39.340 --> 00:43:44.389 man who identifies himself as John Johnson, a servant for 685 00:43:44.429 --> 00:43:47.610 Thomas Percy. The fact that Percy's name has been mentioned 686 00:43:47.670 --> 00:43:52.570 and he's a known Catholic agitator raises suspicion. The man 687 00:43:52.690 --> 00:43:55.469 is dressed for travelling in boots and spurs with a 688 00:43:55.550 --> 00:43:59.489 cloak on. and they search under the firewood, they find 689 00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:03.840 barrels of gunpowder. When they search Johnson, they find a watch, 690 00:44:04.340 --> 00:44:07.260 some touchwood, and a slow match that means to light 691 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:10.980 a fuse. He's seized, tied up, and taken in the 692 00:44:11.099 --> 00:44:13.980 early hours of the 5th to the King, and it 693 00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:16.980 turns out it would seem that the prolonged wait for 694 00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:20.809 Parliament to meet meant that the gunpowder had actually expired. 695 00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.380 The scene that follows is one of the most famous 696 00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:26.239 in English history. Fawkes is brought before James in his 697 00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:29.780 bedchamber at Whitehall and is completely calm. Can I just 698 00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.260 say that maybe the reason I find it hard to 699 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.269 get out of bed in the morning is that, secretly, 700 00:44:36.489 --> 00:44:41.510 I should be royalty. Maybe I'm James I reincarnated. Fawkes 701 00:44:41.550 --> 00:44:45.789 makes no attempt to deny what he's done. He's still 702 00:44:46.050 --> 00:44:49.530 John Johnson at this stage. He's asked why he planned 703 00:44:49.550 --> 00:44:53.550 to blow up the king. He replies... so the story 704 00:44:53.590 --> 00:44:56.929 goes that a dangerous disease requires a dangerous remedy and 705 00:44:56.949 --> 00:45:02.269 when a Scottish soldier torturing him asks why he needed 706 00:45:02.349 --> 00:45:05.110 so much powder, he replies that he meant to blow 707 00:45:05.150 --> 00:45:10.250 the Scots back to Scotland. King is said to have 708 00:45:10.269 --> 00:45:13.449 been very struck by the man's composure and some sources 709 00:45:13.510 --> 00:45:17.219 suggest that James marvelled at his courage but he wants 710 00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:20.070 names and forks won't give them to him. At this stage, 711 00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:24.590 Fawkes is only John Johnson. For two days, he holds out, 712 00:45:24.829 --> 00:45:28.570 giving only his false name. Even then, he confesses nothing 713 00:45:28.670 --> 00:45:32.929 about the others. But in the early hours of the 5th, 714 00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:37.159 the news is spreading. In London, bonfires are lit to 715 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:40.860 celebrate the king's deliverance. And it's the origin of the 716 00:45:40.900 --> 00:45:43.980 tradition that still lasts today. In case you were wondering 717 00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:48.000 why we light bonfires to celebrate a failed plot... It 718 00:45:48.059 --> 00:45:49.820 is not as I always thought when I was younger 719 00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:52.690 because we were going to blow up Parliament and therefore 720 00:45:52.949 --> 00:45:56.550 a bonfire is similar to blowing things up. Makes sense 721 00:45:56.989 --> 00:46:01.329 in my young brain. It is because we lit bonfires 722 00:46:01.530 --> 00:46:07.550 to celebrate the King's deliverance and so we do it still. Meanwhile, 723 00:46:07.929 --> 00:46:10.489 the rest of the conspirators are on the run. As 724 00:46:10.550 --> 00:46:13.280 soon as Fawkes was caught and word reached them, they 725 00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:18.239 scattered out of London, riding hard to the Midlands. Catesby, Rookwood, 726 00:46:18.489 --> 00:46:21.800 Thomas Winter and others met at Ashby, St. Ledger's and 727 00:46:21.820 --> 00:46:24.420 then in the early hours of the 6th tried to 728 00:46:24.500 --> 00:46:31.659 rally support at Dunn Church. Now, news doesn't travel as 729 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:36.539 fast as nowadays. So there's no... They are aware that 730 00:46:36.659 --> 00:46:41.300 even though the plot failed, the first part of the plot, 731 00:46:41.739 --> 00:46:47.730 they can still rummage up a rebellion because... the news 732 00:46:47.769 --> 00:46:52.650 won't have reached everywhere about a failed plot being uncovered 733 00:46:52.690 --> 00:46:58.619 and someone being caught. The response, however, is disastrous. Most 734 00:46:58.659 --> 00:47:01.400 of the Catholic gentry wanted nothing to do with them. 735 00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:04.840 Several of the hunting party who'd gathered, who hadn't been 736 00:47:04.889 --> 00:47:09.070 told the real plan, fled in horror. The group, now 737 00:47:09.130 --> 00:47:12.929 numbering about 80 or so, tried to raid Warwick Castle 738 00:47:12.949 --> 00:47:16.469 for horses and weapons. then headed west towards Wales in 739 00:47:16.550 --> 00:47:20.510 hope of finding support. They found none. They ended up 740 00:47:20.630 --> 00:47:24.280 at Holbeck House in Staffordshire, the home of Stephen Littleton, 741 00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:28.440 one of their number. Exhausted, drenched and almost without hope, 742 00:47:28.820 --> 00:47:31.579 they tried to dry their gunpowder before the fire. A 743 00:47:33.500 --> 00:47:36.900 spark landed on it. The powder exploded, badly burning several 744 00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:40.039 of the men, including Catesby, John Grant, who was blinded, 745 00:47:40.219 --> 00:47:43.329 and Ambrose Rookwood. It's just going from bad to worse. 746 00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:48.380 On the morning of the 8th of

November, the Sheriff 747 00:47:48.619 --> 00:47:54.760 of Worcestershire... Just a little side quest for any Americans 748 00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:59.510 who ever wonder how you say that. Worcestershire arrives at 749 00:47:59.750 --> 00:48:03.429 Holbeck House with a force of some 200 men. A 750 00:48:03.510 --> 00:48:07.409 gunfight begins. Catesby and Percy stood back-to-back in the doorway, 751 00:48:07.510 --> 00:48:10.570 so the account goes, and both were struck apparently by 752 00:48:10.610 --> 00:48:16.050 the same musket ball. Thomas Winter was wounded... John Wright 753 00:48:16.110 --> 00:48:19.230 and Christopher Wright were killed. Catesby, according to some accounts, 754 00:48:19.510 --> 00:48:22.250 crawled back into the house and died clutching an image 755 00:48:22.289 --> 00:48:25.750 of the Virgin Mary. Thomas Percy died the following day. 756 00:48:26.199 --> 00:48:29.340 The government was said to be displeased. The dead tell 757 00:48:29.380 --> 00:48:34.219 no tales and they wanted both leaders alive to be questioned. 758 00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:37.659 The heads of Catesby and Percy would later be cut 759 00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:42.159 off and displayed on spikes outside Parliament. It's lovely, isn't it? 760 00:48:43.340 --> 00:48:46.949 Think about that next time you noodling around the houses 761 00:48:46.989 --> 00:48:52.590 of parliament really missing some horrible spikes now to the 762 00:48:52.730 --> 00:48:55.730 aftermath which in many ways is the darker half of 763 00:48:55.769 --> 00:49:00.360 this story forks was moved on the 6th of november 764 00:49:00.449 --> 00:49:02.900 to the tower of london the king in what has 765 00:49:02.940 --> 00:49:06.880 become a famous document authorized the use of torture with 766 00:49:06.940 --> 00:49:10.699 careful wording he wrote that the gentler tortures were to 767 00:49:10.739 --> 00:49:14.920 be tried first and then so on, by degrees to 768 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.349 the worst. Now, torture at the time was not legal 769 00:49:17.510 --> 00:49:20.449 under the English common law, but it could be. authorized 770 00:49:20.510 --> 00:49:25.280 by royal warrant in cases of national security the method 771 00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:30.679 used on forks and most common at the time is 772 00:49:30.739 --> 00:49:33.960 thought to have been the use of manacles and then 773 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:38.099 the rack manacles are iron handcuffs worn around the wrists 774 00:49:38.539 --> 00:49:41.329 in the tower and A prisoner would be suspended by 775 00:49:41.389 --> 00:49:44.750 manacles with their feet off the floor for long periods 776 00:49:44.789 --> 00:49:49.429 of time, causing great pain and discomfort. Afterwards, the victim 777 00:49:49.449 --> 00:49:52.130 would find it very painful and difficult to use his hands. 778 00:49:52.889 --> 00:49:55.739 If no confession was forthcoming, the prisoner was shown the 779 00:49:55.780 --> 00:49:59.500 rack first and then questioned. Only if the prisoner refused 780 00:49:59.539 --> 00:50:02.679 to answer was the rack used. It's known that the 781 00:50:02.739 --> 00:50:04.860 sheer sight of the rack was often enough for people 782 00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.280 to start talking. There is that meme that goes around 783 00:50:07.300 --> 00:50:10.659 that says it's awful but... probably for the first minute 784 00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:14.969 on the rack, it felt amazing. Just a bit of stretching, 785 00:50:14.989 --> 00:50:17.889 a bit of recentering of the body. I literally just 786 00:50:17.929 --> 00:50:20.190 sat up and my back crunched at the thought of it. 787 00:50:20.389 --> 00:50:24.440 The change in Forks' signature tells a story. A first 788 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:27.099 confession signed on the 7th of November is in a firm, 789 00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:30.670 clear hand. The next signed on the 8th. is a faint, 790 00:50:30.949 --> 00:50:34.340 trembling scrawl, just Guido for the name he'd used whilst 791 00:50:34.389 --> 00:50:37.760 fighting in Spain. It's one of the most haunting documents 792 00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:40.300 to survive from the whole affair and it's held in 793 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.380 the National Archives. And I will put a picture up 794 00:50:43.619 --> 00:50:48.820 on social media. Over the next days, Fawkes gave up 795 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:52.940 his real name, the names of his co-conspirators, then the 796 00:50:52.980 --> 00:50:56.380 story of the whole plot. Much of what he said 797 00:50:56.460 --> 00:50:59.860 was already known because other plotters had been arrested. and 798 00:50:59.900 --> 00:51:02.900 had already talked. By the end of November, the rest 799 00:51:02.940 --> 00:51:06.059 of the surviving plotters had been captured. Digby was taken, 800 00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:09.860 having tried to flee. Rookwood, Keyes, Grant, Bates, and Robert 801 00:51:09.929 --> 00:51:14.769 Winter were arrested. Thomas Winter was captured at Holbeck. Francis Tresham, 802 00:51:14.889 --> 00:51:17.550 who'd been arrested in the first days, died in the 803 00:51:17.610 --> 00:51:23.309 Tower on the 23rd of December, officially of a urinary illness. Also, 804 00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:27.539 whether that's true or not, imagine being in the Tower 805 00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:31.449 of London with a urinary infection nothing makes me feel 806 00:51:31.550 --> 00:51:36.949 iller nothing makes me feel iller just horrendous what a 807 00:51:37.090 --> 00:51:39.840 what a way to go the eight surviving men were 808 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:43.579 put on trial together on the 27th of january 1606 809 00:51:43.579 --> 00:51:47.039 at westminster hall they were charged with high treason the 810 00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:50.800 prosecution was led by attorney general sir edward coke one 811 00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:54.579 of the most formidable lawyers in english history and there's 812 00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:57.909 no real defense Digby pleaded guilty and

the others in 813 00:51:58.030 --> 00:52:02.289 one form or another did so too. They'd been seized, 814 00:52:02.650 --> 00:52:06.610 there was evidence against them. Coke gave a long, ranting 815 00:52:06.650 --> 00:52:09.570 speech calling the plot a treason that was beyond example. 816 00:52:09.929 --> 00:52:13.329 The jury took little time to deliver the expected verdicts. 817 00:52:13.969 --> 00:52:17.019 The sentence for high treason was the cruelest the English 818 00:52:17.420 --> 00:52:20.719 law could devise. The condemned men would be dragged on 819 00:52:20.739 --> 00:52:24.260 a hurdle to their place of execution. That's the drawing bit. 820 00:52:24.980 --> 00:52:29.010 hanged until nearly dead, then cut down, disemboweled and castrated 821 00:52:29.050 --> 00:52:32.289 while still alive, beheaded and their bodies cut into quarters. 822 00:52:34.010 --> 00:52:38.010 On the 30th and 31st of January 1686, the executions 823 00:52:38.030 --> 00:52:41.480 took place. The first four, Digby, Robert Winter, John Grant 824 00:52:41.539 --> 00:52:44.559 and Thomas Bates, were executed at the western end of 825 00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:49.079 St Paul's Churchyard. The final four, Thomas Winter, Ambrose Brookwood, 826 00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:52.179 Robert Keyes and Guy Fawkes, died the next day at 827 00:52:52.340 --> 00:52:55.829 Old Palace Yard in Westminster, within sight of the building 828 00:52:55.869 --> 00:52:59.650 they'd planned to destroy. And here is one of the 829 00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:02.909 most remarkable details of all. Fawkes, who was the last 830 00:53:02.929 --> 00:53:05.769 to be executed, was so weak from torture that he 831 00:53:05.809 --> 00:53:08.780 needed help to climb the scaffold, and some accounts say 832 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:10.860 that as he was about to be hanged, he leapt 833 00:53:10.980 --> 00:53:13.800 from the ladder, or that the rope broke, or that 834 00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.179 he simply fell and broke his neck, and thus escaped 835 00:53:17.380 --> 00:53:20.659 the worst of his sentence. Whatever the cause, he was 836 00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:23.260 dead when the knife came. Some accounts say that his 837 00:53:23.300 --> 00:53:25.610 body was still quartered anyway and the parts sent to 838 00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:29.190 be displayed across the kingdom as a warning. When James 839 00:53:29.429 --> 00:53:33.650 I finally opened Parliament, he gave a speech ensuring that 840 00:53:33.690 --> 00:53:36.829 it wasn't laid at the door of all Catholics. It 841 00:53:36.869 --> 00:53:40.250 wasn't a foreign power. There was nothing to panic or 842 00:53:40.309 --> 00:53:43.590 rebel against. It was a group of radicals. It's actually 843 00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:49.889 incredibly diplomatic. If not handled properly it could have led 844 00:53:49.949 --> 00:53:54.789 to a bloody and brutal repression of Catholics and you 845 00:53:54.829 --> 00:53:57.369 know people getting razzed up and in fact he was 846 00:53:57.409 --> 00:54:01.809 like it's a group of radicals they've been tried they've 847 00:54:01.829 --> 00:54:06.769 been executed job's done the plot had failed but its 848 00:54:06.829 --> 00:54:11.210 consequences ran on for centuries first the Jesuits the government 849 00:54:11.269 --> 00:54:14.570 was convinced that the plot had a hidden hand and 850 00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:17.880 Cecil hoped to prove that the Catholic church leaders had 851 00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:20.719 known of it. Henry Garnet, the superior of the Jesuits 852 00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:24.000 in England, was hunted down. In January 1606, he was 853 00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:27.860 found at Hindlip Hall in Worcestershire, hiding in a priest hole, 854 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.650 one of the best built by Nicholas Owen, and after 855 00:54:31.690 --> 00:54:35.250 being starved out, was taken after a week. Garnet had 856 00:54:35.309 --> 00:54:38.210 known about the plot. He'd learnt of it through Tesmond 857 00:54:38.849 --> 00:54:41.780 in Confession, and he had tried to stop it. At 858 00:54:41.860 --> 00:54:45.079 his trial in March 1606, he was questioned about the 859 00:54:45.139 --> 00:54:49.429 doctrine of equivocation. the idea that a person can, in 860 00:54:49.489 --> 00:54:55.300 certain circumstances, use ambiguous language to mislead without technically lying. 861 00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:59.400 The prosecution, led by Coke, painted this as proof that 862 00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:03.219 Catholic priests were liars who couldn't be trusted. Garnet was 863 00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:09.239 convicted and executed at St Paul's Churchyard on 3 May 1606. 864 00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:11.610 A curious story is attached to his death. A drop 865 00:55:11.630 --> 00:55:16.909 of blood-stained straw from the execution, it's said, showed an 866 00:55:17.050 --> 00:55:20.210 image of Garnet's face and it became a relic for 867 00:55:20.250 --> 00:55:24.840 Catholics and a scandal for the government. The wider Catholic 868 00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:28.639 community suffered too. Parliament, once it met, passed a series 869 00:55:28.699 --> 00:55:33.449 of new laws in 1606. The Popish Recursants Act strengthened 870 00:55:33.510 --> 00:55:38.050 penalties for those who refused to attend Anglican services. Catholics 871 00:55:38.070 --> 00:55:42.289 were barred from certain professions, including the law and medicine, 872 00:55:42.789 --> 00:55:45.050 and were banned from the army and the navy. And 873 00:55:45.150 --> 00:55:48.929 most significant of all, a new oath of allegiance was imposed, 874 00:55:49.300 --> 00:55:52.820 requiring Catholics to swear that the Pope had no power 875 00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:57.119 to depose the king. Many devout Catholics couldn't in conscience 876 00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:00.099 swear it. Catholics would not be fully admitted to public 877 00:56:00.139 --> 00:56:02.980 life in England until the Catholic Relief Act of 1829, 878 00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:10.590

more than two centuries later. One more legacy. Parliament passed 879 00:56:10.829 --> 00:56:14.360 an Act of Thanksgiving, the observance of 5th of November 880 00:56:14.449 --> 00:56:18.800 Act requiring annual church services to commemorate the King's deliverance. 881 00:56:19.139 --> 00:56:22.099 The Act stayed on the statute book until 1859. In 882 00:56:22.619 --> 00:56:26.340 the meantime, the day had acquired a life of its own. Bonfires, 883 00:56:26.599 --> 00:56:29.860 fireworks and effigies at the Pope and later Guy Fawkes himself. 884 00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:33.139 Children asked for a penny for the guy and rhymed 885 00:56:33.239 --> 00:56:36.800 about gunpowder, treason and plot. It remains a night of 886 00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:39.539 fireworks in Britain and a night which most people celebrate 887 00:56:39.579 --> 00:56:43.320 with little thought for what it began as. And the cellar? 888 00:56:44.139 --> 00:56:47.500 To this day, before every state opening of Parliament, the 889 00:56:47.579 --> 00:56:50.489 yeomen of the guard conduct a ceremonial search of the 890 00:56:50.570 --> 00:56:54.230 cellars beneath the Palace of Westminster. It's theatre, but it's 891 00:56:54.289 --> 00:56:56.989 a theatre that has endured for 400 years and one 892 00:56:57.010 --> 00:56:59.369 of the hidden best bits about Britain that is so 893 00:56:59.530 --> 00:57:02.909 often eclipsed by everything else shit at the moment. We 894 00:57:02.949 --> 00:57:09.079 need more whimsy, people. Stop taking everything so seriously. But 895 00:57:09.139 --> 00:57:11.900 how did treason become a night for fire? The first 896 00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:14.860 bonfires were lit by ordinary Londoners on the very night 897 00:57:14.900 --> 00:57:17.679 the plot was uncovered, the 5th of November 1605, as 898 00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:24.219 a spontaneous show of relief. It was the clapping on 899 00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:29.010 the doorsteps of 1605. A few months later, the observance 900 00:57:29.190 --> 00:57:31.590 of the 5th of November Act turned that relief into 901 00:57:31.610 --> 00:57:34.250 a duty act. bells, prayers and sermons every year in 902 00:57:34.309 --> 00:57:36.329 every parish, and for a long time it was a solemn, 903 00:57:36.530 --> 00:57:41.380 loyal and thoroughly Protestant occasion. It did not stay solemn. 904 00:57:42.099 --> 00:57:45.880 By the later 17th century, the day came with processions 905 00:57:46.059 --> 00:57:49.960 and burning of effigies at the Pope. In 1688, William 906 00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:53.389 of Orange landed at Brixham on 5th November, which tied 907 00:57:53.429 --> 00:57:56.889 the date even more tightly to the Protestant cause. And, 908 00:57:56.969 --> 00:57:59.010 I would say, if you're going to land anywhere in 909 00:57:59.050 --> 00:58:02.429 England on 5th November... Brixham is a pretty good place. 910 00:58:02.789 --> 00:58:05.110 Gives you a soft landing into an English winter by 911 00:58:05.150 --> 00:58:10.440 being very pretty. Picturesque. Fireworks arrived as they became cheaper 912 00:58:10.500 --> 00:58:13.099 and in the 19th century the guy himself, a stuffed 913 00:58:13.219 --> 00:58:16.440 figure children dragged around asking for a penny for, took 914 00:58:16.820 --> 00:58:19.440 over from the Pope as the thing most often put 915 00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:23.480 on the fire. The act was repealed in 1859 by 916 00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:26.550 which point the knight belonged to the people rather than 917 00:58:26.590 --> 00:58:32.179 the church. Nowhere keeps the older, harder-edged version of the 918 00:58:32.219 --> 00:58:36.349 knight better than Lewis in East Sussex. In the 1550s, 919 00:58:36.449 --> 00:58:39.750 under Mary I, 17 Protestants were burnt at the stake 920 00:58:39.789 --> 00:58:43.090 in the town, and that memory is woven into every November. 921 00:58:43.550 --> 00:58:47.929 Processions carry burning crosses for the martyrs. Through the 19th century, 922 00:58:47.969 --> 00:58:51.949 the knight was famously rowdy, with flaming tar barrels, running 923 00:58:51.989 --> 00:58:55.929 battles with the authorities, and the town's bonfire societies emerged 924 00:58:56.130 --> 00:58:59.559 largely to bring some order to it. Today, each society 925 00:58:59.619 --> 00:59:03.099 has its own costume, banners and route, and thousands of 926 00:59:03.159 --> 00:59:07.150 people in torch-lit procession walk the narrow streets before bonfires, 927 00:59:07.349 --> 00:59:10.679 fireworks and the burning of effigies. guy forks is there 928 00:59:11.039 --> 00:59:14.420 and so are caricatures of whichever politicians and public figures 929 00:59:14.460 --> 00:59:17.949 the town has decided to deserve it that year the 930 00:59:18.030 --> 00:59:22.190 anti-catholic imagery has drawn criticism and the society say the 931 00:59:22.250 --> 00:59:26.489 night is about civil and religious liberty the argument is 932 00:59:26.530 --> 00:59:29.590 now part of the tradition too Then there is Ottery 933 00:59:29.630 --> 00:59:32.780 St Mary in Devon, where the night is not about 934 00:59:32.840 --> 00:59:35.280 effigies at all, but about fire you can feel on 935 00:59:35.300 --> 00:59:38.699 your skin. Barrels soaked in tar assess the light, hoisted 936 00:59:38.780 --> 00:59:41.059 onto the soldiers of local men and women, and carried 937 00:59:41.079 --> 00:59:44.929 at a run through streets packed with spectators who scatter 938 00:59:44.989 --> 00:59:48.250 as the barrel approaches. Younger carriers take smaller barrels in 939 00:59:48.269 --> 00:59:51.110 the afternoon, and the evening builds towards the biggest barrels 940 00:59:51.150 --> 00:59:55.619 of all around midnight. Nobody knows how old the custom 941 00:59:55.639 --> 00:59:57.630 really is. Many in the town believe it's older than 942 00:59:57.670 --> 01:00:01.829 the gunpowder plot, a folk ritual of purifying fire that 943 01:00:01.869 --> 01:00:05.409 had been absorbed

into the 5th of November. Much of 944 01:00:05.429 --> 01:00:09.320 the plot itself absorbed older autumn fire festivals across Britain. 945 01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:12.480 Whatever the truth, it's a reminder that a night we 946 01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:16.239 think of as being about one conspiracy is carrying a 947 01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:20.269 lot more history than that. Now to the strangest afterlife 948 01:00:20.309 --> 01:00:24.059 of all. 400 years on, a face most associated with 949 01:00:24.099 --> 01:00:27.139 Guy Fawkes is not his own. No portrait of him 950 01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:29.679 survives that we can be sure of. The face is 951 01:00:29.739 --> 01:00:34.900 a mask, a smiling, moustached, rosy-cheeked grin. It was designed 952 01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:38.639 by the artist David Lloyd for the comic V for Vendetta, 953 01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:42.460 written by Alan Moore, which began appearing in a British 954 01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:46.639 magazine in 1982 and was later collected by DC Comics. 955 01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:52.519 The story is set in a future fascist Britain, How 956 01:00:52.619 --> 01:00:56.000 much into the future? And its hero, V, is a 957 01:00:56.039 --> 01:00:59.909 masked anarchist who wants to bring the government down. Lloyd 958 01:00:59.929 --> 01:01:02.889 suggested dressing V as Guy Fawkes since the story was 959 01:01:02.909 --> 01:01:04.889 set around the 5th of November and the idea of 960 01:01:04.949 --> 01:01:07.050 a man remembered for trying to blow up Parliament seemed 961 01:01:07.090 --> 01:01:10.949 a perfect fit. Moore liked it at once. The 2006 962 01:01:10.949 --> 01:01:14.139 film took the mask to a global audience. Then something 963 01:01:14.179 --> 01:01:18.699 unusual happened. Around 2008, members of an online collective, Anonymous, 964 01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:21.739 began wearing it at protests against the Church of Scientology. 965 01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:25.099 The mask appeared again at Occupy protests in 2011 and 966 01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:30.949 has been worn on demonstrations in many countries since, including 967 01:01:30.989 --> 01:01:34.510 the annual Milton Mask March in London each 5th of November. 968 01:01:34.969 --> 01:01:37.630 Alan Moore, who's never had much good to say about 969 01:01:37.650 --> 01:01:40.230 the film adaptation's has said he's pleased to see it 970 01:01:40.349 --> 01:01:44.090 adopted by protesters. There's an irony here that the real 971 01:01:44.150 --> 01:01:47.989 Guy Fawkes was not an anarchist or a democrat or 972 01:01:48.130 --> 01:01:51.869 any enemy of authority. He was a devout Catholic soldier 973 01:01:52.150 --> 01:01:55.610 who wanted to replace one religious order with another by violence. 974 01:01:56.869 --> 01:02:00.110 The mask has little to do with the man. What 975 01:02:00.170 --> 01:02:03.969 it carries now is something else, anonymity, defiance, and the 976 01:02:04.170 --> 01:02:07.369 idea of ordinary people standing up to power in

a 977 01:02:07.389 --> 01:02:10.380 way It is the final transformation of the story, a 978 01:02:10.420 --> 01:02:14.219 plot that failed, a conspirator who is not even its leader, 979 01:02:14.380 --> 01:02:16.920 and a face he never wore, now standing for ideas 980 01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:21.260 he would hardly have recognised. The interesting thing about the 981 01:02:21.300 --> 01:02:24.760 gunpowder plot is, apart from the potential mass murder, it's 982 01:02:24.820 --> 01:02:27.579 never clear who are the goodies and who are the baddies. 983 01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:31.360 Both sides have a point and both behave badly. As 984 01:02:31.429 --> 01:02:33.969 Tom Holland says on The Rest Is History, quote, there's 985 01:02:34.010 --> 01:02:38.070 skullduggery and oppression on both sides. What the gunpowder plot 986 01:02:38.150 --> 01:02:42.070 really teaches is how persecution and desperation can lead decent, 987 01:02:42.190 --> 01:02:44.670 devout men to a place where they would never otherwise 988 01:02:44.710 --> 01:02:47.969 have gone. It's about how fear in return can shape 989 01:02:48.110 --> 01:02:54.070 a nation's laws and its memory for generations. Also, I 990 01:02:54.110 --> 01:02:57.900 don't think it would have blown up. Well, how much 991 01:02:57.980 --> 01:03:02.059 blowing up would there have been? Because that gunpowder was old. 992 01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:06.139 So there's a thought that it really wouldn't have blown 993 01:03:06.179 --> 01:03:09.969 up very much. But I'm pleased it didn't. I love 994 01:03:10.010 --> 01:03:15.139 the Houses of Parliament architecturally. I think they really... That whole... 995 01:03:16.489 --> 01:03:19.800 Old London architecture is pretty unreadable along the River Thames. 996 01:03:20.099 --> 01:03:23.159 I mean, anywhere. I love it. But along the River Thames. Imagine. 997 01:03:23.179 --> 01:03:28.119 Imagine us without it. And that is the story of 998 01:03:28.159 --> 01:03:30.880 the gunpowder plot. Did you know it all? Did you 999 01:03:30.900 --> 01:03:34.059 know about the second bit? We don't know what Princess 1000 01:03:34.099 --> 01:03:37.000 Elizabeth thought of. 1001 01:03:39.889 --> 01:03:42.449 Her part in the plot that she didn't know about, obviously. 1002 01:03:44.289 --> 01:03:46.969 And her brother Charles would go on to be Charles I, 1003 01:03:47.550 --> 01:03:51.929 so he wasn't very popular either. So, I mean, that's 1004 01:03:51.949 --> 01:03:54.510 what I mean when my brain zooms out. You're lucky 1005 01:03:54.550 --> 01:04:00.739 we're not armpit deep in Charles II hiding up a tree. 1006 01:04:10.510 --> 01:04:12.809 You're lucky we're not up to our armpits in Charles 1007 01:04:12.869 --> 01:04:15.949 I having his head chopped off. Thank you so much 1008 01:04:15.989 --> 01:04:18.460 for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope 1009 01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:24.099 you're feeling cosy. Hampshire is looking very autumnal. I mean, 1010 01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:26.579 it's really pulled the stops out. I don't know what 1011 01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:30.380 it is. Everything's to do with the weather. Everything's to 1012 01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:33.019 do with the weather in England at the moment. We 1013 01:04:33.139 --> 01:04:37.539 are stockpiling water. We're all getting wound up radios. We're 1014 01:04:37.559 --> 01:04:41.309 all getting wound up. But it's looking very beautiful. Lots 1015 01:04:41.349 --> 01:04:43.760 of yellows and reds. Well done. I'm sure. I hope 1016 01:04:43.820 --> 01:04:46.179 it's looking as beautiful where you are. As always, I'll 1017 01:04:46.219 --> 01:04:49.880 put pictures up, relevant pictures, on social media. You can 1018 01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:53.699 find me at The Monday Night Review on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. 1019 01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:57.440 You can come and join the Patreon for extra episodes. 1020 01:04:57.480 --> 01:04:59.880 There's over 100 extra episodes for you to listen to. 1021 01:05:01.260 --> 01:05:04.280 And you can email me, themondaynightreview at gmail.com. It makes 1022 01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:09.280 my day. So, that would be nice. Also, if you... 1023 01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:15.260 leave a comment, review, like it, subscribe to it, do 1024 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.070 all the things that are completely free to you that 1025 01:05:18.139 --> 01:05:21.510 make a massive, massive difference to me. I would really 1026 01:05:21.530 --> 01:05:24.570 appreciate it. Until next time, be kind, stay safe, and 1027 01:05:24.789 --> 01:05:28.130 always check the back seat before you drive.

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