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-Hey, I'm Michael Dyrynda.
-And I'm Jake Bennett.
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And welcome to episode 196 of the North
Meet South podcast.
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All right, folks, we are on another blitz.
Um,
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my son is at a movie, and I have to go
pick him up at some point. I don't know
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when that text is gonna come in, but when
it does, I'm gonna have to, like... We're
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just gonna stop right where we're at, in
the middle of talking, whatever we're
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talking about. So,
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let's get it in. In the meantime, Michael,
how's the, uh, how's the World Cup
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watching? You're, you're watching a lot of
the World Cup stuff-
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-Yeah
-... I think. Yeah?
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-Yeah. Well, look-
-How's it going?
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Yeah. Yeah, it's going really good. It's,
um...
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I, I'm 39 now, so I have spent the
majority of my life not following, not
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watching, not enjoying, thinking I would
not enjoy soccer, you know, the world game
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-and all of that.
-Right, right, right.
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-But it wasn't until Eli started playing-
-Mm
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... that I started to get into it. And,
uh, especially now that we're into the
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round of 32, it's, it's been exceptional.
You know, the, the Canada game the other
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day was really good against South Afri-
South Africa. Um, yeah.
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South Africa.
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South Africa. We've, uh... We had the two,
you know, the back-to-back penalty
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-shootouts yesterday, where both-
-Man, I-
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... uh, the, uh, favorites went bye-bye.
Like, no European teams. The
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EU wants to have more European teams in
the World Cup that, you know, clearly they
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-weren't good enough to qualify.
-Yep, yep.
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And now the first, first two European
teams that played both got eliminated, so.
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Oh, man.
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Sorry to the Netherlands. Sorry to, uh,
Germany. Too bad-
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-Good day, mate. We'll see ya
-... next time come out in four years.
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-Yeah, yeah. I don't-
-We'll be following, we'll be following
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-them on, uh, on- ... Saturday morning at-
-You'll be-
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-By 5 AM-
-... on the next flight
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-... it'll be all over.
-Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, I, um, I have not been
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watching as much as I would like to.
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Um,
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but I've been... It's been enjoyable
following you following it, and the other
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dudes that are in some of our chats, like,
watching it and stuff. I don't know.
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Like, I feel like I'm regretting the fact
that I haven't watched as much, so I
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should probably just start tuning in.
That's the, that's the story here.
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Yeah. I mean, the final 32 is where it's
at. Even the 16 is, uh-
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-Okay
-... is good gear. I didn't realize David
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-Hampel was such a, a soccer-
-I know
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-... you know, a soccer-
-Same
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... he's, like, running... He was real,
real aggressive about it, too. You know,
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-he's just-
-Oh, yeah, he was. Like, he knew what he
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-was talking about
-... making hot shots about the US. I'm
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-like-
-Yes
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... "Come on, you guys. You... What's it
like to lose to Turkey?" Like, uh,
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never lost to Turkey, couldn't tell you.
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-Uh, well, I-
-Then he starts throwing out the excuses,
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"Oh, you played our B team. Well, boo
hoo."
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-Well, that is true, though. That is true.
-Excuses, excuses.
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I don't know a whole lot, but that is
true.
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-Excuses.
-And I mean, like, okay, so think about it
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this way, like, if you know you're
advancing, you're not gonna play your best
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players. You don't wanna get injuries.
You don't wanna get yellow cards.
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-No.
-You don't wanna get... Right?
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-No.
-Come on.
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-That's, that's right. Yeah.
-Who cares?
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-It's all the excuses you want.
-It's, it's, it wasn't-
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-I get it. I get it
-... it was... it didn't even matter. Like,
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so Turkey was going home, US was
advancing. It didn't matter. So-
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-Mm-hmm
-... let the guys who made it to the World
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Cup, who, who typically don't get to play-
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-Yeah
-... let them play. You know what I mean?
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-That's right.
-We're trying to build-
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-Com-
-... a program-
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-Do you know what?
-... not just a team.
Load full transcript
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Do you know what? Do you know what?
Complacency is just nothing to worry
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about. Germany wasn't complacent. Uh, you
know,
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the Netherlands weren't complacent. Don't
even worry about it. Just-
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-No
-... just cruise it. You just walk into a
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-win. You'll be fine, I'm sure.
-That's right. That's right. So anyway, all
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right. Well, I need to start watching.
Um, I have... You know what? I'll... The
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other thing that I've, uh, didn't realize
is that I didn't realize that UFC has
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fights every Saturday night. I didn't know
this.
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-Oh.
-Um, and so I need to start watching those
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-more often.
-Players who gotta beat the crap out of
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each other.
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-I know. I know.
-All the time.
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It's been, it's been fun, fun to watch
that stuff. So,
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-um, anyway, yeah.
-Another thing before we get out of sports.
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Okay, let's hear it.
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Le- LeBron, he's out. He's gone. He's
leaving the Lakers.
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-LeBron Jahamas. Is he? Is he done?
-LeBron, LeBron, he's done. They, the
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-Lakers-
-Did, have I told you this, have I told you
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this inside joke that me and my son have?
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-Mm-hmm.
-So, like, there's so many-
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-Mm-hmm
-... foreign-sounding players now, you
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-know? Like, we have-
-Right
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... so many players from overseas and
stuff. And so, um,
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to make, uh, LeBron James sound more like
one of the foreign players, we call him
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LeBron Jahamas.
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So, you know.
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-LeBron Jahamas. Yeah, he's, uh-
-LeBron Jahamas
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-... gone, goneski.
-Okay, so is he done, done, retired? Like,
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-he's done?
-No, no, no, no, he's just leaving the
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-Lakers.
-Oh, where's he going?
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Don't know where he's going. Don't know.
Could be the Heat, could be the Cavs,
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could be the Warriors. It'd be funny if he
ends up at the Warriors, but, uh, yeah.
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Well, you know what? So, uh, Dusty May,
who led Michigan,
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the University of Michigan, to a national
title in basketball last year, which I was
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privileged to be able to go watch. It was
super cool. So it was in Indianapolis,
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which is, like, a three-hour drive from
us,
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and all the Arizona, uh, fans were
offloading their tickets 'cause they were
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like, their team lost, and they were
supposed to win, and Michigan just
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destroyed them. So people were offloading
the tickets, so we got cheap tickets and
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got to go watch Michigan win the national
championship, but he is leaving Michigan
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-and going to coach the Mavs.
-Yeah, I saw that. He got picked up by the
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-Mavs.
-That's pretty cool.
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-So good on him.
-Yeah.
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-Yeah.
-I mean, good on him. It sucks for us.
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Like, I really would've loved to have him
for a few more years, but,
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-um-
-Hey, if you can get a-
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-... they won the... Totally
-... get a NBA team, like, not-
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-I, I get it
-... not everyone can be the head coach of
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UConn and turn down the Los Angeles
Lakers, you know? But, um-
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-Sure. Right, right, right. So-
-Someone had to-
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-I mean, it's-
-... go on and coach the Mavs. Sure.
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-Yes, yes. So-
-They only made, only made a generational
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whiff trading Luka for Anthony Davis,
who's, who's now injured in Washington.
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-Sure. Go and, go and coach the Mavs-
-Yeah
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-... I guess.
-That was a, that was a rough one, Luka
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leaving. That was a rough one. But, uh...
And now LeBron Jahamas is leaving the
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Lakers, where, you know? So I don't know.
I didn't, I don't follow-
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-Yeah
-... the basketball stuff too closely
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-either. My family-
-Austin Reaves resigned with the Lakers
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-... is a big football team.
-There was like, "Oh, we're gonna-"
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-We're a big football family, so-
-"He's gonna go on the Super Max"
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-... that's why
-... you know?
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-Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
-Austin's gonna leave the Lakers. He's
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gonna get a $250 million four-year Super
Max deal somewhere. No, he took a cut. 185
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million to stay in the La- stay with the
Lakers. So LeBron's gone. We got that
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mammoth frigging
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disaster of a contract off the books
finally, 'cause he's not gonna take a pay
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-cut. So-
-Yep
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... maybe we'll build some pieces around
Luka now.
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-There you go. That'd be great.
-It's clear-
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-I'd love to see the Lakers-
-You know, the ownership-
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... have another, like, sort of a big, a
big, uh, rally. You know, it was really
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-fun when-
-Yeah
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... Kobe was there, and, and, uh, that
was, that was a fun time to be watching
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-the Lakers, so.
-Yeah. It's good to see that they're
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finally building around the, you know, the
future. LeBron-
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-Mm-hmm
-... you know, LeBron, 41, greatest
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41-year-old to ever play the game. Only
41-year-old to ever play the game,
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whatever, whatever the stupid stats are.
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He was getting paid like a guy that had
been a, you know, 20-year superstar, which
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is, which is great for him, terrible for
the organization. So,
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-we'll see what happens now.
-Yep. Peace out, LeBron.
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-Got some pizzas.
-LeBron James.
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-Yeah.
-Peace out.
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What do we got? What are we gonna talk
about?
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Um, you know what? Let me think about this
for a second. We have been...
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Trying to think what we've been talk- what
we've been doing recently.
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Um,
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I will say that, you know, we talked about
our whole thing with permissions a while
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back, like, and how we were switching
everything over to, like, a different
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structure,
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and I will say it has been unreal, like,
how nice and flexible it has become.
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So the big mistake that we made, and is a
mistake that I would encourage you not to
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repeat, is
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we used roles for everything.
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-Mm-hmm.
-Which is fine
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to an extent,
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um,
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but it's just, it, long term, it's not
super manageable. Um, and so especially if
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you're dealing with a lot of users and
things like that. So
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my encouragement would be to
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move, um, your,
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move your management of roles and users
that belong to those roles outside of the
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application
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layer.
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So what we did is we put all the
permissions in the application, but then
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we said the roles that get those a- those
permissions and the users that get those
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roles are managed outside of the
application,
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which is a bit of a trick, but we figured
out a way for ourselves to do it. Um, or,
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I mean, I guess if...
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The trick is just you need to have a good
way to be able to manage that, where you
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can associate roles with users and
multiple permissions with roles very
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easily without having to do code changes.
That's probably the better, the better
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-sort of-
-Yeah
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... piece of advice there. Um, make it
super easy to associate any permissions
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you want with any role you want. Make it
easy to create roles com- like, completely
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free, and then make it super easy to
associate users with roles. That's it.
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That's, that's, like, the tagline here.
Um, and it has just been so much better
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that we don't have to invoke code changes
in order to do anything. Any permission
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that anybody wants, anything you can do in
our application, super easy to give it to
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anyone. It's wonderful.
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The other thing that we did that was
freaking amazing
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is we did permission leases, which is
somebody gets a permission temporarily. So
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-they get a temper-
-Mm-hmm
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... a permission for a period of time,
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and then it auto-expires. So you don't
have to remember to go expire it after the
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fact, you just, it auto-expires. And then
the last thing we did is we did delegated
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management of users. So if there's a
person who manages 10 users,
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and they're gonna be stepping out for the
month,
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somebody needs to be able to manage those
users. And so somebody can delegate their
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permissions to another user, delegate
their direct reports to another person.
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-And so that person basically-
-Mm-hmm
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... is not imitating them, 'cause that's
the problem. If you imitate a
person,
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every action you do looks like that other
person did it, and that's not what we were
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after. We were after saying, "No, you can
do the things that they could do," but it
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still tags it as you that did it. And so
that's a delegated permission or delegated
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management of users. And so those three
things together,
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that was the magic, and it's been awesome.
It's been working across all of our
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applications. And, uh, I would say that if
anybody has any questions on any of that,
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please reach out to me. I'd love to share
with you how we did it. But that has been
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a big, huge thing. And every time I run
into these permission things, which I've
210
00:09:51,350 --> 00:09:55,890
had a lot of them recently, lots of
restructuring, it's just no problem. You
211
00:09:55,890 --> 00:09:59,870
just manage it super simply, and it's been
really, really good. So that's been
212
00:09:59,870 --> 00:10:01,790
wonderful. And then, um,
213
00:10:02,610 --> 00:10:07,510
the other things that we're working on is
integration of Apple Pay and Google Pay
214
00:10:07,510 --> 00:10:09,090
-into some of our-
-Yeah
215
00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:12,670
... stuff. And so I'm excited about that.
I think it's gonna help a lot,
216
00:10:13,330 --> 00:10:17,730
um, with people getting onboarded, uh,
and, and getting their payments up really
217
00:10:17,730 --> 00:10:22,330
quickly. And then the last, last thing
that we've been working on is automated
218
00:10:22,330 --> 00:10:24,350
texting conversations. And so
219
00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:28,590
what I'll say about this, the things that
I've learned about this, is that if you
220
00:10:28,590 --> 00:10:32,450
are texting back and forth with a user and
you want to give them options to do
221
00:10:32,450 --> 00:10:36,410
something, don't make them type in words,
right? So if you have multiple actions
222
00:10:36,410 --> 00:10:39,790
they can take, don't make them type in
words. Give them numbers
223
00:10:40,749 --> 00:10:41,490
as options.
224
00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:43,120
So, for example,
225
00:10:43,810 --> 00:10:47,240
they text the word "pay." We look up their
account, and we say,
226
00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:53,550
"Hey, looks like your most per- recent
payment was for $200, ending in this, you
227
00:10:53,550 --> 00:10:55,370
know, for this Visa ending in 4242.
228
00:10:56,350 --> 00:11:01,450
Do you want to, one, repeat that payment,
two, change the amount, three, change the
229
00:11:01,450 --> 00:11:03,310
payment method, or four, cancel?"
230
00:11:03,930 --> 00:11:06,050
-Mm-hmm.
-'Cause otherwise, it's literally
231
00:11:06,050 --> 00:11:09,470
impossible for them. You had to type in
confirm, or if you didn't-
232
00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:10,990
-Yeah
-... type confirm, then you need to type in
233
00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:15,030
a number value that is the new amount
that you want, but you have to explain all
234
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:20,090
this in that text, and it's just, it's
terrible. And so giving them number
235
00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:24,190
options, number one, makes it way easier
to parse their responses, what they're
236
00:11:24,190 --> 00:11:25,350
trying to accomplish.
237
00:11:25,970 --> 00:11:30,570
But then, two, it gives you the ability to
be able to provide more options much more
238
00:11:30,570 --> 00:11:35,150
clearly than you could if you were just
using, you know, reply with this special
239
00:11:35,150 --> 00:11:36,319
-keyword, uh-
-Yeah
240
00:11:36,319 --> 00:11:41,850
... which gets really tricky. And so, um,
that's been a huge benefit for us as well.
241
00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:45,170
And I know we're only at, like, 12
minutes. I've gotta go in, like, three
242
00:11:45,170 --> 00:11:48,250
minutes. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you
tell me what we're working on, so what
243
00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:49,530
you're working on. So hit me. What do you
got?
244
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:54,930
Uh, well, we are going through this, uh,
uplift project at the moment for our
245
00:11:55,690 --> 00:11:56,670
lender submission
246
00:11:57,510 --> 00:12:01,030
stuff, which has been an interesting
experience. We've actually got a
247
00:12:01,030 --> 00:12:01,770
contractor in.
248
00:12:02,410 --> 00:12:04,010
The funny part about that is that
249
00:12:04,650 --> 00:12:08,630
the contractor that we've got in was my
boss when I was working in an agency,
250
00:12:08,630 --> 00:12:12,410
like, 10 years ago. So now he works for
me, which is wonderful, um, which, which
251
00:12:12,410 --> 00:12:16,570
we've joked about a few times. But, um,
we've been just doing this uplift, you
252
00:12:16,570 --> 00:12:22,070
know, um, onboarding new lenders or
lenders that have been on our panel for a
253
00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:25,050
long time that we've now actually started
to build our integrations.
254
00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:29,962
The, um, the documentation is varied
amongst them. Sometimes they provide
255
00:12:29,962 --> 00:12:30,422
really good
256
00:12:31,162 --> 00:12:35,822
JSON API docs or Swagger docs or whatever.
The trickier bit is around whether or not
257
00:12:35,822 --> 00:12:40,222
there's contextual documentation, like
actual prose that says, you know, "You
258
00:12:40,222 --> 00:12:43,801
need to send this in these circumstances,"
or, "When we ask for this," or, "When
259
00:12:43,802 --> 00:12:44,762
this error happens." You know,
260
00:12:45,362 --> 00:12:45,802
to have
261
00:12:46,402 --> 00:12:50,122
that kind of documentation, which I've
seen from a couple of lenders, is really,
262
00:12:50,122 --> 00:12:52,632
really helpful. Um, and, and I suppose
that
263
00:12:53,602 --> 00:12:56,902
more
broadly, like if you're writing API
docs, if you're doing scramble
264
00:12:56,902 --> 00:12:59,012
-documentation, for example-
-Mm-hmm. Yep
265
00:12:59,012 --> 00:13:00,162
... put in the extra effort,
266
00:13:00,882 --> 00:13:05,022
I think wherever possible, especially if
the docs are gonna be consumed publicly,
267
00:13:05,022 --> 00:13:09,032
to put in as much context and information
around that,
268
00:13:10,102 --> 00:13:13,442
those scramble docs as you can. Whatever
that document-- Whatever shape that
269
00:13:13,442 --> 00:13:17,582
documentation takes, provide context.
Don't just provide a list of keys and
270
00:13:17,582 --> 00:13:18,022
values.
271
00:13:18,762 --> 00:13:23,102
I think that's very unhelpful, both from a
consumer perspective and also for, like
272
00:13:23,102 --> 00:13:24,422
anyone that has to support that.
273
00:13:25,222 --> 00:13:26,142
So, um,
274
00:13:26,802 --> 00:13:29,462
that's been really good. It's been really
interesting, as I said, looking at the
275
00:13:29,462 --> 00:13:34,122
varying degrees of, of quality. You know,
one, one lender that I'm working with at
276
00:13:34,122 --> 00:13:37,702
the moment, we get the full documentation,
we get the Swagger docs, we get the
277
00:13:37,702 --> 00:13:38,522
contextual docs.
278
00:13:39,382 --> 00:13:40,342
Very simple to go,
279
00:13:40,992 --> 00:13:41,302
"Hey,
280
00:13:42,262 --> 00:13:46,462
AI," you know, "Claude, here's the docs.
Go and, like, build out the DTOs and the
281
00:13:46,462 --> 00:13:47,062
enums for me."
282
00:13:47,862 --> 00:13:51,042
And then we have to go through and, like,
map our internal data structures onto the
283
00:13:51,042 --> 00:13:52,612
external docs, but that's,
284
00:13:53,282 --> 00:13:56,762
that's an easier process when you've got
everything already in place. So,
285
00:13:57,642 --> 00:14:02,262
uh, very helpful having that because
Claude very good at reading JSON spec and
286
00:14:02,262 --> 00:14:05,582
figuring out how to convert that into a,
into a PHP DTO. So,
287
00:14:07,102 --> 00:14:08,802
that has been the main thing. We're--
We've, um,
288
00:14:09,542 --> 00:14:10,902
we departed our offshore team,
289
00:14:11,562 --> 00:14:14,822
uh, probably about a month ago now, six
weeks ago. And so-
290
00:14:14,822 --> 00:14:15,012
Okay
291
00:14:16,002 --> 00:14:18,682
... um, you know, we finally got to the
point where we could bring on another
292
00:14:18,682 --> 00:14:22,892
developer locally who's picked up, you
know, some, some of that work. So they're
293
00:14:22,892 --> 00:14:25,762
an intermediate developer, but they've,
they've done an ex... Like, they've had an
294
00:14:25,762 --> 00:14:29,202
exceptional start. They ask really
thoughtful questions. They've, like,
295
00:14:29,202 --> 00:14:32,002
they've been developing for 17 years or
something like that, but they've come on,
296
00:14:32,642 --> 00:14:36,302
uh, from an agency background, so they
ask
really good questions. They, they, you
297
00:14:36,302 --> 00:14:39,061
know, do the research. They go and look at
things before they come and ask you for
298
00:14:39,062 --> 00:14:41,742
help, which has been, uh, very pleasing
299
00:14:42,522 --> 00:14:46,122
as a new starter, and they've, like, hit
the ground running, doing all kinds of, of
300
00:14:46,122 --> 00:14:49,822
wonderful things. But in light of the
offshore team being
301
00:14:50,482 --> 00:14:52,112
-departed from, from our world-
-Yeah
302
00:14:52,112 --> 00:14:53,272
... it means that
303
00:14:53,942 --> 00:14:58,662
the rest of the team is now picking up the
IT helpdesk. And when I say IT helpdesk,
304
00:14:58,662 --> 00:15:02,082
it's like support of, of our main
application. It's not like, "My printer's
305
00:15:02,082 --> 00:15:06,842
not working" helpdesk. It's specifically
the application stuff. And so that's been,
306
00:15:06,842 --> 00:15:07,022
um,
307
00:15:07,662 --> 00:15:08,522
an interesting,
308
00:15:09,422 --> 00:15:09,602
uh,
309
00:15:10,422 --> 00:15:10,822
eye-opener,
310
00:15:11,562 --> 00:15:13,522
um, to, to look at that process and kind
of figure out, you know, where people-
311
00:15:13,522 --> 00:15:17,662
So your software dev team is now picking
up IT tickets, basically? Okay.
312
00:15:17,662 --> 00:15:23,242
Yeah. Yep. So, you know, this-- I, I went
here, I got a, I got a 500 error or-
313
00:15:23,242 --> 00:15:24,542
-Yeah, yeah
-... you know, this process doesn't work
314
00:15:24,542 --> 00:15:27,202
with that kind of stuff. So, um, I--
315
00:15:28,722 --> 00:15:32,862
W- it was kind of picked up ad hoc by a
couple of the other guys for the first few
316
00:15:32,862 --> 00:15:37,042
weeks, and then we, we spun the wheel to
see, you know, who's-
317
00:15:37,042 --> 00:15:38,542
-Mm-hmm. Yeah. Who's next
-... who's gonna do it to, like, figure
318
00:15:38,542 --> 00:15:38,692
-out-
-Yeah
319
00:15:38,692 --> 00:15:41,662
... what the, the schedule would be. And
of course, I drew the short straw, so I
320
00:15:41,662 --> 00:15:43,022
got the first, first two weeks.
321
00:15:43,782 --> 00:15:44,942
And, uh, it's been good. I've had to do
some front end-
322
00:15:44,942 --> 00:15:47,492
So you're doing it, like, two weeks at a
time? The two weeks at a time.
323
00:15:47,492 --> 00:15:49,502
-Two weeks at a time, yeah.
-And now are you-- Is that your only
324
00:15:49,502 --> 00:15:52,242
responsibility during that two weeks, is
to answer tickets, or do you have other
325
00:15:52,242 --> 00:15:52,962
small features and stuff you're working
on?
326
00:15:52,962 --> 00:15:56,702
Yeah, primarily, yeah, primarily it's
that. There's also, like, any BAU tasks,
327
00:15:56,702 --> 00:16:01,522
so business as usual tasks that come up,
you know, fixing things, miscellaneous bug
328
00:16:01,522 --> 00:16:04,922
fixes, et cetera, et cetera, that get
raised by the, the product team and, and
329
00:16:04,922
--> 00:16:07,722
things like that. So there's no new
feature work, and then I've... I'm, like,
330
00:16:07,722 --> 00:16:11,362
working on these lender integrations in
the background as well between tickets.
331
00:16:11,362 --> 00:16:11,582
Um,
332
00:16:12,522 --> 00:16:15,682
but it's, it's the kind of thing that,
like, I'll check it in the morning, I'll
333
00:16:15,682 --> 00:16:19,402
check it after lunch, I'll check it at the
end of the day. It's not, like, a
334
00:16:19,402 --> 00:16:21,062
-full-time thing. There's-
-Okay
335
00:16:21,062 --> 00:16:24,362
... w- there's, there's, like... There's
been a recurring issue that is, like, we
336
00:16:24,362 --> 00:16:26,802
know that it's an issue, but we can't
really do anything about it 'cause we're
337
00:16:26,802 --> 00:16:28,582
-waiting on some other thing to-
-Sure
338
00:16:28,582 --> 00:16:31,902
... happen, like, at, at a business, like,
at a board level for them to decide what,
339
00:16:31,902 --> 00:16:33,702
-what we're going to do.
-Yeah.
340
00:16:33,702 --> 00:16:39,002
Um, so the, you know, so we get, like, 15
tickets a day that's like, "Couldn't do
341
00:16:39,002 --> 00:16:44,042
this because this related record was
missing." So I went through and sent, sent
342
00:16:44,042 --> 00:16:48,162
the PR this morning to, quote-unquote,
"fix that," which is basically, "If this
343
00:16:48,162 --> 00:16:53,582
is the exception, report it. Uh, don't
report it. Log a warning and, like, don't
344
00:16:53,582 --> 00:16:56,102
report it in the, in the queue failing
handler that we've got."
345
00:16:56,102 --> 00:16:57,662
-Yeah.
-So that goes into the ticket systems.
346
00:16:57,662 --> 00:16:59,002
Like, we, we know it's a thing.
347
00:16:59,842 --> 00:17:02,882
There's not actually anything that we can
do about it. There is a manual business
348
00:17:02,882 --> 00:17:07,242
process in place to circumvent this
particular issue anyway, and has always
349
00:17:07,242 --> 00:17:12,582
been there. Um, so, like, just, just make
this useless ticket go away. So that was
350
00:17:12,582 --> 00:17:14,842
-good fun.
-Now, does your-- Does every time there's
351
00:17:14,842 --> 00:17:18,042
an error in your application, does it
automatically create a ticket?
352
00:17:20,202 --> 00:17:24,642
No. So the tickets that are created are
only from failing queue jobs.
353
00:17:24,642 --> 00:17:24,842
Okay.
354
00:17:25,742 --> 00:17:29,202
So we've got, like, in our app service
provider, there's a queue dot op failing
355
00:17:29,882 --> 00:17:33,602
with a job failed event, like closure, and
we go through there and it's like, if
356
00:17:33,602 --> 00:17:35,152
we're in, in, uh, in production,
357
00:17:35,962 --> 00:17:40,282
then go and, like, pull the information
together and then log a helpdesk ticket.
358
00:17:41,022 --> 00:17:41,912
-Because the, uh-
-Okay. Nice
359
00:17:41,912 --> 00:17:44,722
... the queue failing ones can be a little
bit more obscure,
360
00:17:46,042 --> 00:17:47,922
uh, in terms of, like, they're hidden
361
00:17:48,722 --> 00:17:50,902
if you're not looking for those things.
Um-
362
00:17:50,902 --> 00:17:52,462
-Hmm
-... and it's the kind of things that are
363
00:17:52,462 --> 00:17:52,732
like,
364
00:17:53,422 --> 00:17:58,662
we create folders in Box, like a folder
hierarchy when we create a, a new, um,
365
00:17:58,662 --> 00:18:00,182
person in our CRM,
366
00:18:00,842 --> 00:18:03,892
and sometimes that fails. Like, sometimes
Box goes down, and we don't-
367
00:18:03,892 --> 00:18:05,962
-Yeah
-... have any visibility over that because
368
00:18:05,962 --> 00:18:08,782
this is, like, creating this happens in
the background, and sometimes Box just
369
00:18:08,782 --> 00:18:12,422
goes down and we've got to go figure out,
like, is it our issue? Is it their issue?
370
00:18:12,422 --> 00:18:14,642
-Have they logged a report?
-Right. It's nothing anybody can report.
371
00:18:14,642 --> 00:18:15,522
-Do we need to communicate?
-Yeah.
372
00:18:15,522 --> 00:18:15,942
-Yeah.
-Yeah.
373
00:18:17,462 --> 00:18:21,982
Um, so tho- those kinds of things go in
there. Um, and then there's also-- So
374
00:18:21,982 --> 00:18:26,082
there's the automated tickets, then
there's also, um, we've got, like, level
375
00:18:26,082 --> 00:18:30,702
two support for the business side of
things, which is, like, our, our users,
376
00:18:30,702 --> 00:18:35,202
our internal users, our external users
reporting bugs. Um, you know, this doesn't
377
00:18:35,202 --> 00:18:38,702
work, et cetera, et cetera. Our level two
person will go through and they'll, like,
378
00:18:38,702 --> 00:18:42,732
figure out is this a training thing? Is
this an actual bug? Et cetera, et cetera.
379
00:18:42,732 --> 00:18:46,802
And then they log tickets. So that acts
as, like, the funnel between the business
380
00:18:46,802 --> 00:18:49,802
and the engineering team to, to resolve
those kinds of things. So-
381
00:18:51,146 --> 00:18:54,196
It's, it's funny the kinds of things that,
that crop up.
382
00:18:54,196 --> 00:18:55,966
-Mm-hmm.
-Like there was an issue with our Google
383
00:18:55,966 --> 00:18:56,446
address
384
00:18:57,306 --> 00:18:57,986
autocomplete
385
00:18:58,766 --> 00:18:59,476
-stuff.
-Hmm. Okay.
386
00:18:59,476 --> 00:19:00,306
-Like if-
-Yeah
387
00:19:00,306 --> 00:19:03,606
... the way that we're doing it is that
we've got like the Google address lookup
388
00:19:03,606 --> 00:19:07,076
is wrapped in a Mui component. So we're
using Mui-
389
00:19:07,076 --> 00:19:09,826
-Okay
-... which is the material UI framework for
390
00:19:09,826 --> 00:19:10,036
our front end.
391
00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:12,466
-Okay, gotcha.
-Um, so 'cause they've got some good React
392
00:19:12,466 --> 00:19:14,696
support and all the front end's built in
React. So we're using that,
393
00:19:15,626 --> 00:19:19,946
and the way that we had set it up was that
if
there was only a single-- Like if you
394
00:19:19,946 --> 00:19:24,286
type your full address before, you know,
the debounce and you get the, the result
395
00:19:24,286 --> 00:19:27,106
set back, and there was only one result
that came back,
396
00:19:28,086 --> 00:19:32,926
it just wouldn't show any results. Um,
which was, which was an interesting bug to
397
00:19:32,926 --> 00:19:33,926
find because
398
00:19:34,646 --> 00:19:38,406
by all accounts, it has been there since
this address autocomplete functionality
399
00:19:38,406 --> 00:19:39,786
was put into the platform.
400
00:19:41,266 --> 00:19:44,476
And like no one's reported it, or it's
been like an anecdotal-
401
00:19:44,476 --> 00:19:46,166
-Yeah
-... report. Like, "Oh, such and such said
402
00:19:46,166 --> 00:19:49,186
this didn't work," but then someone went
to try it and it was there.
403
00:19:49,186 --> 00:19:51,366
It's so hard. It's so hard to find those
things, man. It's like,
404
00:19:52,026 --> 00:19:55,306
it's like you have to rely on a user to
report it enough times that it actually
405
00:19:55,306 --> 00:19:57,926
becomes like a, "Oh, oh, that actually is
a real thing."
406
00:19:57,926 --> 00:19:59,786
-Yeah.
-Or like, you know, we had something that
407
00:19:59,786 --> 00:20:03,666
had worked perfectly forever, like since
it was... Like it was the saved payment
408
00:20:03,666 --> 00:20:07,126
methods, like they would sync down from
the payment provider and sync down the
409
00:20:07,126 --> 00:20:10,806
saved payment methods. Worked perfectly
for years, years and years and years.
410
00:20:10,806 --> 00:20:12,706
-Yeah.
-And so when people were like these, like
411
00:20:12,706 --> 00:20:15,606
this person called in and asked if they
could remove, we could remove the saved
412
00:20:15,606 --> 00:20:18,366
payment methods. Can we do that? Like,
yeah, sure. So we removed it. They're
413
00:20:18,366 --> 00:20:21,036
like, they logged in, they said it's still
there. I'm like, "I'm looking at the rep-
414
00:20:21,036 --> 00:20:24,206
response from the payment provider. It's
not ha- it's not there. Like there's
415
00:20:24,206 --> 00:20:25,276
-nothing there."
-Yeah.
416
00:20:25,276 --> 00:20:29,846
And they're like, "Well, I'm saying there
is." And I'm like, "Okay." So like I went
417
00:20:29,846 --> 00:20:33,266
to the banking team, I'm like, "Hey, I
need you to go remove this." So they're
418
00:20:33,266 --> 00:20:36,806
like, "I'm showing you, like it's
removed." I'm like, "Great." So I go back
419
00:20:36,806 --> 00:20:39,886
and I'm like, "Okay, sync the saved
payment methods," and it's still there.
420
00:20:39,886 --> 00:20:45,286
And I'm like, "What the heck?" And so what
ended up happening is like we missed, in
421
00:20:45,286 --> 00:20:47,466
one pull request, I'm sure it was Claude,
422
00:20:48,186 --> 00:20:51,306
decided that there was a plural that
should have been singular, 'cause there
423
00:20:51,306 --> 00:20:52,236
-was only a single-
-Right
424
00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:55,446
... filter being applied. So why would you
make that a plural like thing?
425
00:20:55,446 --> 00:20:57,046
-Mm-hmm.
-And so it removed an S.
426
00:20:57,906 --> 00:21:00,966
-Ah.
-Account filters. And it would... They, it
427
00:21:00,966 --> 00:21:03,266
changed it to account filter because we
were only-
428
00:21:03,266 --> 00:21:05,586
-Right
-... do- returning active, but account
429
00:21:05,586 --> 00:21:08,636
filters was the correct word you needed to
use.
430
00:21:08,636 --> 00:21:10,386
-Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
-And so it just stopped working. It was
431
00:21:10,386 --> 00:21:11,026
-returning-
-But it's still working
432
00:21:11,026 --> 00:21:12,126
-... all payment methods regard-
-Right
433
00:21:12,126 --> 00:21:14,966
... regardless of if you had re- removed
them, deleted them, retired them. But
434
00:21:14,966 --> 00:21:18,426
yeah, it's like so hard for those sorts of
things. Like the point you were making,
435
00:21:18,426 --> 00:21:18,586
like
436
00:21:19,426 --> 00:21:22,626
ap- apparently this has been happening
since we released it. Like, you know what
437
00:21:22,626 --> 00:21:22,806
-I mean?
-Yeah.
438
00:21:22,806 --> 00:21:25,516
-Since it was ever even in place.
-Yeah.
439
00:21:25,516 --> 00:21:27,026
-So, yeah.
-And it's like those address lookup things
440
00:21:27,026 --> 00:21:32,086
are very interesting because most people,
I would say, are very slow to type.
441
00:21:33,306 --> 00:21:37,326
So they would type like number, street
name, street type, and then they would
442
00:21:37,326 --> 00:21:40,206
stop at that point, and you would get a
list of multiple results, and then you
443
00:21:40,206 --> 00:21:43,906
would often, 'cause, you know, Google,
Google's, uh, address lookup is pretty
444
00:21:43,906 --> 00:21:45,446
good, you would get the one you wanted and
you'd click on it-
445
00:21:45,446 --> 00:21:47,206
-Yeah, it's pretty quick
-... and it'd be no problem. But if you
446
00:21:47,206 --> 00:21:48,946
type quickly or it's like-
447
00:21:49,586 --> 00:21:50,766
-Autofill
-... uh, yeah, autofill.
448
00:21:50,766 --> 00:21:53,666
If it's like a saved profile with one
password or something, yeah.
449
00:21:53,666 --> 00:21:57,186
Right. If you, yeah, if you autofill it,
um, or you copy paste it, you know, you've
450
00:21:57,186 --> 00:21:59,106
-got an email from a, a client-
-Yeah
451
00:21:59,106 --> 00:21:59,896
-... with their address in it-
-Yeah
452
00:21:59,896 --> 00:22:02,906
... and you copy paste it, and then you
paste it in there, and you get an exact
453
00:22:02,906 --> 00:22:04,226
match. Well, it just didn't show.
454
00:22:05,126 --> 00:22:08,326
And I'm like, "Well, I don't know. I can't
reproduce it. Like it's working," and
455
00:22:08,326 --> 00:22:11,926
then it's going, hang on. There is
definitely a result coming back from the
456
00:22:11,926 --> 00:22:13,495
-API. I can
see it-
-Yeah
457
00:22:13,495 --> 00:22:16,766
... in the inspector, like there is one
record there. So it gives you something to
458
00:22:16,766 --> 00:22:21,046
kind of pull on that thread. You go,
"Hey, Claude, if there's only one result,
459
00:22:22,066 --> 00:22:25,466
I can see it coming back from the API, but
it is not being set." And what it ended
460
00:22:25,466 --> 00:22:26,456
up being was like
461
00:22:27,666 --> 00:22:31,046
the m- the material components like
default filter
462
00:22:32,186 --> 00:22:35,066
would look for an exact match or
something, and because it was not there,
463
00:22:35,066 --> 00:22:38,405
it would just like scrub it from the list,
and so you'd end up with no results, so.
464
00:22:39,906 --> 00:22:43,186
It's just, it's just funny the, the kind
of things that turn up that's like, as I
465
00:22:43,186 --> 00:22:44,986
said, if it's anecdotally reported like,
466
00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:46,106
uh, a,
467
00:22:46,726 --> 00:22:51,106
um, what do they call them? BSM, a
business sales manager, whatever they are
468
00:22:51,106 --> 00:22:51,946
-that like-
-Hmm, okay
469
00:22:51,946 --> 00:22:54,846
... con- you know, that they're
responsible for a number of brokers in
470
00:22:54,846 --> 00:22:58,866
their portfolio, for example. They hear
about it anecdotally, like this one person
471
00:22:58,866 --> 00:23:01,606
was reporting it, but they, they can't do
anything or they don't chase it up or
472
00:23:01,606 --> 00:23:01,926
-they don't-
-Right
473
00:23:01,926 --> 00:23:02,846
-... follow it up or whatever.
-Yeah.
474
00:23:02,846 --> 00:23:04,246
And then, you know, eventually,
475
00:23:05,566 --> 00:23:07,146
um, you know, it was announced, "Hey,"
476
00:23:08,006 --> 00:23:12,345
Michael was on, on helpdesk this week, so
this BSM was then straight to me and, you
477
00:23:12,345 --> 00:23:15,766
know, and it's like, "Hey, can I just
escalate this?" I'm like, "Can't escalate
478
00:23:15,766 --> 00:23:18,566
a ticket that doesn't exist." Like if
there is no ticket log for this- ...
479
00:23:18,566 --> 00:23:20,176
-there's, there's no-
-Yeah
480
00:23:20,176 --> 00:23:23,306
... like don't just come to me with a
problem. I'm like, "Where did they enter
481
00:23:23,306 --> 00:23:26,415
it? What did they type? What was the
address that didn't work? Like please, any
482
00:23:26,415 --> 00:23:27,406
information would be helpful so I can
open a ticket."
483
00:23:27,406 --> 00:23:30,766
You're the favorite IT guy. Everybody
loves when the IT guy says that, when
484
00:23:30,766 --> 00:23:31,286
-you're like-
-Yeah, yeah
485
00:23:31,286 --> 00:23:32,596
... "Nope, sorry, I can't do anything
about it."
486
00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:33,826
-And like, and like-
-"You gotta write all this stuff up."
487
00:23:34,666 --> 00:23:37,086
I've, uh, I've been here four and a half
years and I've never had to do any of the
488
00:23:37,086 --> 00:23:39,766
helpdesk stuff, so I'm like,
"I don't know
what the actual process is here."
489
00:23:39,766 --> 00:23:40,756
-Yeah.
-"I want to help you."
490
00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:42,706
-Yeah.
-"But also I don't wanna do something that
491
00:23:42,706 --> 00:23:43,826
like the next person-"
492
00:23:44,586 --> 00:23:46,165
-Right
-... "that does this is now going, 'Well,
493
00:23:46,166 --> 00:23:48,246
hang on. We're not, that's not the
process. I shouldn't,'" you know?
494
00:23:48,246 --> 00:23:51,086
-Yeah, yeah.
-So I was like, "Just if there's a ticket-"
495
00:23:51,086 --> 00:23:53,286
Put a ticket in. Yeah. Yeah, put a ticket
496
00:23:53,286 --> 00:23:54,326
-in.
-There, there, there is a whole process for
497
00:23:54,326 --> 00:23:57,666
this that has never changed. It's like
create the ticket. If it's like urgent,
498
00:23:57,666 --> 00:23:58,796
urgent, the sky is falling,
499
00:23:59,526 --> 00:24:02,186
then there's a process for escalation and
there's a channel in Slack that you
500
00:24:02,186 --> 00:24:05,226
escalate, et cetera. So anyway, I was
like, none of this had happened, and it's
501
00:24:05,226 --> 00:24:08,716
like it's only work, it's only broken
sometimes and no one can tell me when. I'm
502
00:24:08,716 --> 00:24:12,866
like, it's not, the platform is not
working. It's this one aspect of this one
503
00:24:12,866 --> 00:24:15,165
part of the thing is not working in some
situations-
504
00:24:15,166 --> 00:24:16,946
-Yeah
-... that you can't explain to me. So I'm
505
00:24:16,946 --> 00:24:17,396
like, I'm not,
506
00:24:18,206 --> 00:24:20,936
I'm not gonna spend a day trying to figure
out what's going on. Provide me with some
507
00:24:20,936 --> 00:24:21,696
-details.
-Yeah. The thing is,
508
00:24:22,326 --> 00:24:24,566
the thing is with that too is like
whenever you make an exception,
509
00:24:25,206 --> 00:24:28,786
inevitably that person will now only ever
talk to you-
510
00:24:28,786 --> 00:24:30,346
-Mm-hmm
-... and they'll never put in the ticket. I
511
00:24:30,346 --> 00:24:31,466
-have a lady who does that.
-Yeah.
512
00:24:31,466 --> 00:24:34,606
It's like, I think it's, I think it
doesn't matter what her name is, but it's
513
00:24:34,606 --> 00:24:37,786
the same person, and every time she has a
question or problem, she doesn't ever put
514
00:24:37,786 --> 00:24:40,256
-in the ticket. She just asks me directly.
-Yeah.
515
00:24:40,256 --> 00:24:40,786
-And it's like-
-Yeah
516
00:24:41,426 --> 00:24:44,746
... I should just start being like, "No,
you have to put a ticket in. Whoever's
517
00:24:44,746 --> 00:24:46,936
handling those will handle it." But like
I'm not gonna sit here answering these
518
00:24:46,936 --> 00:24:48,105
-random questions.
-Yeah. And it gets to the point that it's
519
00:24:48,106 --> 00:24:50,306
been like two years, five years, six
years.
520
00:24:50,306 --> 00:24:51,786
-Yeah, yeah.
-It's like it's too late now. You can't,
521
00:24:51,786 --> 00:24:52,346
you can't
say anymore, "Well, this is not
the process."
522
00:24:52,346 --> 00:24:53,186
And honestly, I don't--
523
00:24:54,026 --> 00:24:56,686
Yeah, it has gotten to the point too where
I do not feel bad not answering her for
524
00:24:56,686 --> 00:24:59,220
like three days. It's like, well- You're
gonna have to wait.
525
00:24:59,220 --> 00:25:00,390
-Yeah.
-Like, I got other stuff I'm working on.
526
00:25:00,390 --> 00:25:01,540
-Like, you texted the-
-Yeah, it was urgent. They had to bang on
527
00:25:01,540 --> 00:25:03,390
-some doors
-... you texted, yeah, you messaged...
528
00:25:03,390 --> 00:25:07,010
Right. You messaged one of the most busy
people in this department, and so you're
529
00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:07,950
-just gonna have to wait.
-Mm-hmm.
530
00:25:07,950 --> 00:25:10,649
Like, or, or I'm gonna... If it's really
important, you'll have to report it to
531
00:25:10,650 --> 00:25:13,350
your manager, and then they can put the
ticket in or whatever. So anyway, doesn't
532
00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:13,650
-matter.
-Yeah.
533
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:15,360
-But-
-So, you know, that's a, that's-
534
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,710
-But, uh, yeah
-... an interesting thing. I do-- My, my
535
00:25:17,710 --> 00:25:22,140
previous employer, when I started there,
the first, I think, two weeks,
536
00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:26,430
I was on the phones. Like, I was talking
to customers of the platform,
537
00:25:27,690 --> 00:25:28,110
s- which
538
00:25:28,830 --> 00:25:31,770
I think is, um, an underrated
539
00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:34,510
thing to do
540
00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:37,740
in businesses where you've got, like,
external customers-
541
00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:39,860
-That's an insanely important-
-... where they can actually contact you.
542
00:25:39,860 --> 00:25:41,490
-Yeah.
-Whether it's, like, whether it's on the
543
00:25:41,490 --> 00:25:44,350
phones or if it's through, you know, a
544
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:48,490
chat, if you've got support chat or a
ticketing system, whatever. I think
545
00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:50,390
it's, it's a really
546
00:25:51,010 --> 00:25:51,990
valuable way
547
00:25:52,830 --> 00:25:57,530
to interact with real users of your
platform and seeing the kinds of issues
548
00:25:57,530 --> 00:26:00,590
that they're coming up against, because it
makes you much more considerate
549
00:26:01,450 --> 00:26:02,530
of what
550
00:26:03,570 --> 00:26:07,230
the people, the consumers of your
application, and also the people that are
551
00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:11,070
supporting those users internal to your
organization, like, the kinds of things
552
00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:12,550
that they face day to day.
553
00:26:13,670 --> 00:26:16,710
'Cause they might just consider it to be,
like, a business as usual thing. "Oh,
554
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:20,010
yeah, this person has caught up with this
problem again," and it's like, "This is,
555
00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:23,570
this is the process we go through to fix
it." It's like, well, how do we stop that
556
00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:24,170
kind of call from coming through in the
first place?
557
00:26:24,170 --> 00:26:27,600
Yeah. Is that kind of-- 'Cause that's the
question, like, when you say BAU, business
558
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,870
as usual, is that just like, "Hey, these
are errors that happen occasionally that
559
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:34,170
need to have manual intervention, but
there's a solution, like, guide for how we
560
00:26:34,170 --> 00:26:35,010
-solve this problem."
-Yeah.
561
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:37,590
It's just not something that's worth
solving automatically or-
562
00:26:37,590 --> 00:26:38,910
-Yeah
-... unable to solve automatically? Okay,
563
00:26:38,910 --> 00:26:41,270
-gotcha.
-But, but, like, sometimes those things,
564
00:26:41,270 --> 00:26:44,220
like, come up from the frontline people
who then speak to the-
565
00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:45,800
-Yeah
-... level two person, and they figure out,
566
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,290
"Oh, yeah, this is the, the process to,
to do that." And so it stops at that level
567
00:26:50,290 --> 00:26:53,490
two support person. It's like, well, we
could fix this properly so that this
568
00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:55,110
doesn't happen at all, rather than you
having-
569
00:26:55,110 --> 00:26:56,550
-Yeah
-... to go through these three manual steps
570
00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:58,470
-every time.
-We just eliminate the problem, yeah, all
571
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:59,030
-together.
-Yeah.
572
00:26:59,850 --> 00:27:01,740
Which is, yeah, I, I think
573
00:27:02,590 --> 00:27:05,540
sometimes we can get a bit ahead of
ourselves,
574
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:06,530
um,
575
00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:09,910
as engineers and be like, "I don't have to
talk to the customers." I'm like, no, I
576
00:27:09,910 --> 00:27:14,209
think, I think it's valuable, and I think
it's been a very long time coming that,
577
00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:18,170
that this rotation has come in, and I
think we will be better as a team for it.
578
00:27:18,170 --> 00:27:19,250
-Because sometimes-
-Absolutely
579
00:27:19,890 --> 00:27:22,550
... some of us, like myself included, we'd
be like, "Oh, no, I don't."
580
00:27:23,690 --> 00:27:27,650
I mean, I don't typically touch any of
the, the customer facing stuff. A lot of
581
00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:32,350
mine is, is integration work and back end
and things like that. So I don't, I don't
582
00:27:32,350 --> 00:27:36,850
have lots of hands-on. And, like, within
the first two days of doing this, I've
583
00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:40,429
already been submitting PRs and, and
changing the front end, which is
584
00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:45,130
wildly inappropriate, I think, 'cause
there's a good chance I break it 'cause I
585
00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:48,190
don't understand it enough to, to make
changes to it. But Claude said it was
586
00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:51,850
fine, and
someone signed off on the PR, so
I'm sure it's, it's fine.
587
00:27:53,050 --> 00:27:57,010
That's funny. We, um... It's like what you
said was about it being, like,
588
00:27:57,010 --> 00:28:00,310
underrated. I do agree, and, like, we're
right now working on sort of,
589
00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:01,430
um,
590
00:28:02,170 --> 00:28:07,690
your ability to be able to tier in your
job title, in your job role, being able
591
00:28:07,690 --> 00:28:09,790
to, like, get like tier one, tier two,
tier three, whatever.
592
00:28:09,790 --> 00:28:10,770
-Mm-hmm.
-And, um,
593
00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:14,810
one of the requirements I'm looking at
adding back in that we've previously had
594
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:20,110
in there is to, like, certify for a role
in another department. So basically, each
595
00:28:20,110 --> 00:28:24,270
department has a list of, like, you have
to know how to do these things in order to
596
00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:27,300
be able to certify that you know how to
do this job function.
597
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:30,330
-Mm-hmm.
-And so basically, it's for my team
598
00:28:30,330 --> 00:28:35,209
members, it would say you need to spend
enough time in that department that you
599
00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:38,399
can actually go through and certify for
that role.
600
00:28:38,399 --> 00:28:39,670
-Yeah.
-And so you're gonna know literally
601
00:28:39,670 --> 00:28:42,270
everything that that team does. You're
gonna sit in, like, almost like you're a
602
00:28:42,270 --> 00:28:45,790
new hire in that group for probably a
week, and you're gonna go through, and
603
00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:46,550
you're gonna at least...
604
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:47,930
I'm trying to figure out,
605
00:28:48,910 --> 00:28:52,710
do I actually care that they can do it? Do
I need to prove that the person can do
606
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:53,420
-it?
-Mm-hmm.
607
00:28:53,420 --> 00:28:56,770
Or do I just care more that they kind of
know what they're doing and can speak
608
00:28:56,770 --> 00:28:57,520
-intelligently-
-Yeah
609
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,540
... about each of the processes? I think
probably that's more important.
610
00:29:00,540 --> 00:29:01,860
-Yeah.
-I don't actually want them to sit down and
611
00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:06,030
do the work and be proficient and, and be
able to say, like, "Well, I can get X
612
00:29:06,030 --> 00:29:09,210
number of tasks done in, in this amount of
time." I don't care about that.
613
00:29:09,210 --> 00:29:10,450
-Mm-hmm.
-I just want them to know that when
614
00:29:10,450 --> 00:29:14,490
something breaks, they have a clue what
that team is talking about. Or if a
615
00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:17,929
process is broken, they know which leader
to go talk to, to figure out who-
616
00:29:17,929 --> 00:29:20,249
-Yeah
-... who, you know, what's wrong. And so,
617
00:29:20,249 --> 00:29:24,490
um, yeah, I'm, I'm working on that because
I do think you're right. Like, we...
618
00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:27,630
Sometimes we just kinda hole up in our
little,
619
00:29:28,490 --> 00:29:33,220
uh, offices and, uh, don't really have to
interact with those outside, uh, you know,
620
00:29:33,220 --> 00:29:33,580
-the people-
-Yeah
621
00:29:33,580 --> 00:29:36,970
... who are actually using the problems or
the applications. And so there's a lot of
622
00:29:36,970 --> 00:29:40,570
things that are, like, efficiencies that
could be built in, that if a developer-
623
00:29:40,570 --> 00:29:41,710
-Mm-hmm
-... sat down for 10 minutes, they'd be
624
00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:44,180
like, "Oh, we could fix that real quick."
Like, "No problem."
625
00:29:44,180 --> 00:29:44,810
-Yeah.
-And so-
626
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:46,330
-Yeah
-... uh, I think a lot of efficiency
627
00:29:46,330 --> 00:29:48,500
-improvements and, uh, a lot of-
-And a lot of the time we don't know that
628
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:50,910
... better understanding too. Right.
Exactly. That's the thing.
629
00:29:50,910 --> 00:29:52,200
-'Cause, like, we don't see it ourselves.
-Yeah. 'Cause they don't hand it up.
630
00:29:53,070 --> 00:29:56,230
They've, like, found a way to work around
it. They're like, "Well, this is just what
631
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:58,370
we do when that happens," and, and, you
know.
632
00:29:59,010 --> 00:30:02,350
And that, that last job where I started,
like, my first two week was answering
633
00:30:02,350 --> 00:30:02,890
phones.
634
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,750
-Yeah.
-I was still in the support queue. Like, if
635
00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:09,690
there was a, an influx of calls or
someone was off sick, my phone would still
636
00:30:09,690 --> 00:30:10,050
ring
637
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:14,750
in those situations to, to help out, you
know, 'cause it was a, it was an all hands
638
00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:16,470
on deck situation at that point. So
639
00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:19,310
yeah, it's, um, it's definitely
interesting,
640
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:20,240
-um-
-Yeah
641
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,980
... and it's, and it's valuable. And, and
642
00:30:22,790 --> 00:30:26,530
as you said, getting into a department and
understanding what they're doing, you may
643
00:30:26,530 --> 00:30:29,030
become the, the point of contact for,
like, that area-
644
00:30:29,030 --> 00:30:30,490
-That's right
-... of the, the software
645
00:30:31,170 --> 00:30:35,310
that, that, you know, you're the bridge
between the engineering team and that,
646
00:30:35,310 --> 00:30:39,150
that business unit if something c-
happens. And then, you know, sometimes you
647
00:30:39,150 --> 00:30:42,030
could speak more intelligently to the
problem that they're facing from an
648
00:30:42,030 --> 00:30:43,449
-engineering perspective.
-Yeah.
649
00:30:43,450 --> 00:30:46,460
But you understand what they're facing
because you've seen it from the other side
650
00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:50,050
-of the, of the coin as well, so.
-Yeah. And I
actually have-- We've seen
651
00:30:50,050 --> 00:30:52,020
-that play out as well.
-Um, yeah, our, our current organization is
652
00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:56,130
very good at, um, we do this thing, like,
every three months called Leading Teams,
653
00:30:56,130 --> 00:30:56,910
which is like a,
654
00:30:57,570 --> 00:31:01,970
it's, it's an all-in where we sit down and
we would, we would do, um,
655
00:31:02,930 --> 00:31:03,870
kind of like
656
00:31:05,146 --> 00:31:06,866
I don't wanna say, um,
657
00:31:07,826 --> 00:31:11,746
team building exercises, but it's like
about, about building rapport and, and
658
00:31:11,746 --> 00:31:14,086
getting to know people that you don't
really know
659
00:31:14,726 --> 00:31:17,206
day to day, like that I don't have much
engagement with. But it-
660
00:31:17,206 --> 00:31:18,906
-Mm-hmm
-... but you sit down and you get grouped
661
00:31:18,906 --> 00:31:21,946
up with people that you wouldn't normally
talk with, and you would talk about, you
662
00:31:21,946 --> 00:31:25,286
know, what's going on in your life, what
are you excited about, what, you know,
663
00:31:25,286 --> 00:31:28,906
what's challenging you at work, so that
everyone kind of gets to know each other a
664
00:31:28,906 --> 00:31:33,546
bit more than just a name in Slack. And
it's, it's... the idea being that, like,
665
00:31:33,546 --> 00:31:34,086
you build,
666
00:31:34,766 --> 00:31:40,266
um, high-performing teams around trust and
communication and things like that. If,
667
00:31:40,266 --> 00:31:44,226
if I can see that, you know, Jake's tired,
well, I can understand why, because, you
668
00:31:44,226 --> 00:31:45,216
-know, he's just had a baby-
-Yeah
669
00:31:45,216 --> 00:31:47,766
... or whatever else, you know, that kind
of thing, that you kind of put yourself in
670
00:31:47,766 --> 00:31:48,646
their shoes, and you get
671
00:31:49,306 --> 00:31:53,506
a much more cohesive and, and, you know,
high-performing team out of it across the
672
00:31:53,506 --> 00:31:55,366
board when you know that people are,
673
00:31:56,046 --> 00:32:00,746
um, speaking with each other beyond just,
you know, punching cards and, and doing
674
00:32:00,746 --> 00:32:01,366
the job, so.
675
00:32:02,266 --> 00:32:04,866
Okay. One, one other thing that we've
actually just been working on that goes,
676
00:32:04,866 --> 00:32:08,066
goes right along with what you're talking
about, which is that people are more than
677
00:32:08,066 --> 00:32:11,126
the sum of their productivity at work,
right? They, they... obviously, there's a
678
00:32:11,126 --> 00:32:14,846
lot of stuff going on outside of the walls
of the building that they work in or if
679
00:32:14,846 --> 00:32:18,006
they work remote, right? So something
we've been doing for, like, the last five
680
00:32:18,006 --> 00:32:20,566
years, which has been very interesting, is
we do these weekly reports.
681
00:32:21,246 --> 00:32:23,466
-Mm-hmm.
-And so on Friday,
a bunch of people do
682
00:32:23,466 --> 00:32:26,546
these, right, check-ins, but it's not just
like, "Hey, what was your productivity?"
683
00:32:26,546 --> 00:32:29,846
It is like, "What is your stress?" And
there's like... you ever seen those little
684
00:32:29,846 --> 00:32:34,506
pain charts that they use for kids where
it's, like, the sad face, and then... You
685
00:32:34,506 --> 00:32:35,926
know what I mean? Or it's like, it starts
out with, like-
686
00:32:35,926 --> 00:32:37,646
-Mm
-... a pain level of zero. It has a green
687
00:32:37,646 --> 00:32:37,896
-face-
-Mm
688
00:32:37,896 --> 00:32:38,656
-... with a little hi-
-Mm-hmm
689
00:32:38,656 --> 00:32:39,626
-... happy kid.
-Yeah.
690
00:32:39,626 --> 00:32:43,056
And then it's, like, the li- yellow, and
then it goes all the way to the red.
691
00:32:43,056 --> 00:32:44,206
-Right, yeah.
-And so you have the kid that point at,
692
00:32:44,206 --> 00:32:48,086
like, which face are you feeling right
now, right? So they have a hard time
693
00:32:48,086 --> 00:32:51,066
associating, like, a word with it, but
they know just looking at the picture,
694
00:32:51,066 --> 00:32:52,165
-that's how I'm feeling right now.
-Yeah.
695
00:32:52,166 --> 00:32:52,926
-Right?
-Yeah.
696
00:32:52,926 --> 00:32:56,866
And so instead of it being like a, "How
was your stress this week?" and it being
697
00:32:56,866 --> 00:33:00,766
like low, uh, a little bit, like, it just
uses the faces.
698
00:33:00,766 --> 00:33:01,966
-Mm-hmm.
-It says like green.
699
00:33:01,966 --> 00:33:03,466
-Mm-hmm.
-You know, I'm, like, low stress. I'm doing
700
00:33:03,466 --> 00:33:04,165
-good.
-Yeah.
701
00:33:04,166 --> 00:33:08,146
Or a little bit less green, yellow,
orange, red. And so they can report like,
702
00:33:08,146 --> 00:33:11,486
"Here's what my stress was," and then they
can say what it, what it is. They can
703
00:33:11,486 --> 00:33:14,926
say, "How much my workload and how that
was." And I'm trying to remember what the
704
00:33:14,926 --> 00:33:15,505
other one is.
705
00:33:16,106 --> 00:33:18,556
-Um, I think it's personal. Personal-
-Yeah
706
00:33:18,556 --> 00:33:21,926
... stress, workload. And then they talk
about-- They, they have an opportunity to
707
00:33:21,926 --> 00:33:24,366
talk about each of those. And then there's
what was the high for the week, what was
708
00:33:24,366 --> 00:33:26,026
the low for the week. Those are the
questions.
709
00:33:27,006 --> 00:33:30,636
And so the only fill in the blank sort of
things that they ha- that are required are
710
00:33:30,636 --> 00:33:34,606
the high and the low, and then they, they
submit that. And then what we do is, as a
711
00:33:34,606 --> 00:33:38,526
leadership team, like the entire, like
all the chiefs, all the directors meet
712
00:33:38,526 --> 00:33:42,766
every Monday, and anybody who is orange or
below on any of those measures, we look
713
00:33:42,766 --> 00:33:45,136
at their, their high-low report and see
like-
714
00:33:45,136 --> 00:33:46,146
-Mm
-... how are things going for that person?
715
00:33:46,146 --> 00:33:50,226
Is there anything we can do to help that
person? Whatever. Um, but those aggregate
716
00:33:50,226 --> 00:33:53,226
reports is what we're building right now,
which has been pretty cool. So being able
717
00:33:53,226 --> 00:33:56,306
to see like, "Hey, what's the trend line
for this department? How are they feeling?
718
00:33:56,306 --> 00:33:59,035
Is stress, like overall for that entire
team?"
719
00:33:59,035 --> 00:34:01,286
-Mm.
-Like, is the entire team sort of feeling a
720
00:34:01,286 --> 00:34:04,226
certain thing? And then we can do
sentiment analysis on like, let's look at
721
00:34:04,226 --> 00:34:07,166
all the, an aggregate of their reports.
Hey, Claude, like... Or not Claude, we
722
00:34:07,166 --> 00:34:11,076
don't use Claude for this, but our
internal AI tool. Uh, hey-
723
00:34:11,076 --> 00:34:14,146
-Yeah
-... tell me, summarize the, the sentiment
724
00:34:14,146 --> 00:34:16,516
of these people here, right? What are we
feeling about this?
725
00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:18,726
-Mm-hmm.
-And so, um, that's been pretty cool. But,
726
00:34:18,726 --> 00:34:23,035
um, yeah, to, to speak to the point that
you're making, which is, you know, it's...
727
00:34:23,035 --> 00:34:26,026
Most of the time, the people who they're
filling those reports out, it's, it's
728
00:34:26,026 --> 00:34:29,426
hardly ever work stuff. I mean, I would
say probably half the time it's work, and
729
00:34:29,426 --> 00:34:33,906
other times it's like, "My dog is having
surgery because whatever, whatever," or,
730
00:34:33,906 --> 00:34:37,506
you know, "My kid got sick this week, and
like, I had to take a day off work. I'm
731
00:34:37,506 --> 00:34:38,346
-feeling behind."
-Mm.
732
00:34:38,346 --> 00:34:40,846
And we can be like, "Hey, manager, can
you, like, jump in and help them with
733
00:34:40,846 --> 00:34:42,956
their work because they, you know, they
had a sick kid this week?"
734
00:34:42,956 --> 00:34:43,726
-Yeah.
-And stuff that-
735
00:34:43,726 --> 00:34:44,726
-Yeah
-... you just would never know about
736
00:34:44,726 --> 00:34:46,315
-otherwise. And so, yeah, it's-
-Yeah
737
00:34:46,315 --> 00:34:49,086
-... it's been pretty cool to do that.
-Yeah, it's the kind of thing that, you
738
00:34:49,146 --> 00:34:52,506
know, you work with these people all the
time, but they're like work personality,
739
00:34:52,506 --> 00:34:54,186
-and that's all you see. But-
-Yeah
740
00:34:54,186 --> 00:34:55,136
... knowing, you know,
741
00:34:55,786 --> 00:34:58,506
knowing that someone's unwell, you just
pick up the phone and you can text them.
742
00:34:58,506 --> 00:35:01,186
You know, if something, if they're not at
work or if, like, someone's sick or
743
00:35:01,186 --> 00:35:03,815
someone, you know, something's happened,
you can just pick up a phone and say,
744
00:35:03,815 --> 00:35:04,026
"Hey,
745
00:35:05,486 --> 00:35:08,006
don't need to tell me what's going on, but
I heard that, you know, you're not gonna
746
00:35:08,006 --> 00:35:11,456
be there or stuff's tough. Hope
everything's okay."
747
00:35:11,456 --> 00:35:12,926
-Yeah, yeah.
-Like, just, just the human connection
748
00:35:12,926 --> 00:35:14,086
beyond just, um,
749
00:35:14,986 --> 00:35:15,526
the work thing
750
00:35:16,266 --> 00:35:18,586
-is really cool.
-You got it. You got it. All right, man,
751
00:35:18,586 --> 00:35:22,746
what else do we got here? Am I... I was
gonna say that, uh, I, you know, my, that
752
00:35:22,746 --> 00:35:26,945
three minutes lasted about 25 minutes, but
my, uh-
753
00:35:26,945 --> 00:35:28,126
-You got extra time
-... my son was,
754
00:35:28,626 --> 00:35:32,586
he was... Yeah, I got extra time. He was
at the theater and was like... I asked him
755
00:35:32,586 --> 00:35:34,966
before we started our podcast, I was
like, "Hey, what time are you gonna need
756
00:35:34,966 --> 00:35:37,106
to be picked up?" He's like, "I don't
know." I'm like, "How far are you along in
757
00:35:37,106 --> 00:35:40,346
the movie?" He's like, "I don't know."
I'm like, "Okay. Well, the runtime for
758
00:35:40,346 --> 00:35:43,906
this movie is like an hour and 45," and
he's, was supposed to be there at 8:00,
759
00:35:43,906 --> 00:35:47,306
but the previews take a half hour, so
like, I should be good until like 10:20,
760
00:35:47,306 --> 00:35:47,476
you know?
761
00:35:48,226 --> 00:35:51,996
Well, then he texted at like, you know,
5:00 till 10:00, was like, "Hey, I need to
762
00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:53,726
be picked up." Like, oh, of course you
do.
763
00:35:54,366 --> 00:35:57,246
And so anyway, I was like, "I'll come get
you in a couple minutes." My wife was
764
00:35:57,246 --> 00:36:00,826
like, "I'll go get him." So anyway, thank
you to my wonderful wife who went and got
765
00:36:00,826 --> 00:36:00,986
him
766
00:36:01,666 --> 00:36:05,086
-late at night so that I didn't have to-
-Things for me to look forward to, I guess
767
00:36:05,086 --> 00:36:07,286
... and I could stay. Yeah, exactly. Dude,
it's, it's crazy. Like, we're trying to
768
00:36:07,286 --> 00:36:09,666
figure out, like, curfew times and stuff.
Like, you're thankful that they have
769
00:36:09,666 --> 00:36:12,746
friends to go hang out with. They're good
kids. I know the kids that he's hanging
770
00:36:12,746 --> 00:36:13,936
-out with. But it is-
-Yeah
771
00:36:13,936 --> 00:36:17,046
... like trying to balance like, okay,
what is a reasonable time to be home, you
772
00:36:17,046 --> 00:36:17,886
-know?
-Yeah.
773
00:36:17,886 --> 00:36:20,946
-Um, you know, and he's like, he's 15.
-And balancing against like what time the
774
00:36:20,946 --> 00:36:23,826
other kids are going to be home and things
like that as well.
775
00:36:23,826 --> 00:36:24,966
-Totally. Yeah.
-Like we don't want to be the one that's
776
00:36:24,966 --> 00:36:28,446
-always too early, but also... Yeah.
-Right. But he does tend to hang out with
777
00:36:28,446 --> 00:36:31,026
kids who are a little bit older, so like
the other kids have their licenses, so
778
00:36:31,026 --> 00:36:32,776
like they can get home whenever they want,
and he doesn't.
779
00:36:32,776 --> 00:36:34,246
-Mm-hmm. Yeah.
-And so we have to run to pick him up and
780
00:36:34,246 --> 00:36:34,716
stuff. So it's like,
781
00:36:35,726 --> 00:36:37,826
it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, um,
782
00:36:38,786 --> 00:36:41,986
it is good. I mean, like, you want him to
go be with friends. You don't want him to
783
00:36:41,986 --> 00:36:44,146
just be sitting at home bored by
themselves.
784
00:36:44,146 --> 00:36:45,286
-Mm-hmm.
-But it's just-
785
00:36:45,286 --> 00:36:46,766
-Mm-hmm
-... you know, we're in this weird spot
786
00:36:46,766 --> 00:36:49,606
right now where he's doing that and he's
out with friends, but like he doesn't have
787
00:36:49,606 --> 00:36:51,226
-his license yet. So-
-Yeah
788
00:36:51,226 --> 00:36:53,666
... four months he'll have his license,
and it'll be a little bit easier for him
789
00:36:53,666 --> 00:36:56,286
to be able to get around. But then you
have to worry about is he being safe? Is
790
00:36:56,286 --> 00:36:58,326
-it whatever? All those things and stuff.
-Yeah, he's driving. He's gonna get pulled
791
00:36:58,326 --> 00:36:59,645
-over, all this kind of stuff.
-You got it.
792
00:36:59,646 --> 00:37:00,706
-Crazy.
-You got it.
793
00:37:00,706 --> 00:37:02,806
-Crazy times. Um-
-And he likes fast cars, so you know.
794
00:37:04,666 --> 00:37:07,306
He can get, he can have a fast car when he
can buy his own. Um-
795
00:37:07,306 --> 00:37:08,786
That is correct
796
00:37:10,742 --> 00:37:12,652
-One last thing. I am leaving for Boston-
-Okay, let's hear it
797
00:37:12,652 --> 00:37:13,502
-... for Laracon US-
-Yes
798
00:37:13,502 --> 00:37:15,292
... in 24 days.
799
00:37:16,242 --> 00:37:21,002
I have sussed out what I, as an
Australian, believe will be good coffee.
800
00:37:22,242 --> 00:37:25,602
I've got a number... I sent a few of these
recommendations to Gen Z Abby,
801
00:37:26,202 --> 00:37:29,921
uh, or Gen Zed Abby, 'cause we don't say Z
in Australia. Um-
802
00:37:29,922 --> 00:37:33,862
-Okay, Gen Zed.
-But Gen Zed. Uh, so I've sussed out a
803
00:37:33,862 --> 00:37:37,602
couple of places that I think will be good
coffee. Uh, donuts are apparently a very
804
00:37:37,602 --> 00:37:39,172
-big thing in Boston-
-Oh, boy
805
00:37:39,172 --> 00:37:41,042
... so I've sussed out a few donut places.
806
00:37:41,042 --> 00:37:45,322
-Boston Cream. Boston Cream donuts, yeah.
-Yep. And, uh, a friend of mine who is a
807
00:37:45,322 --> 00:37:50,402
big Boston man, loves the, uh, Celtics,
the New England Patriots, the Boston Red
808
00:37:50,402 --> 00:37:50,742
-Sox.
-Red Sox, yeah.
809
00:37:50,742 --> 00:37:55,302
He's all in on Boston sports. Um, he's
suggested to me a place to go and get some
810
00:37:55,302 --> 00:37:57,962
-cannoli. So I suggested that to-
-Oh, right. Let's go
811
00:37:57,962 --> 00:38:00,222
-... to you guys last night-
-I saw that, yeah
812
00:38:00,222 --> 00:38:03,102
... in the group chat. So we're doing that
the day after. We're gonna go and check
813
00:38:03,102 --> 00:38:04,271
-out these cannoli.
-Big fan.
814
00:38:04,271 --> 00:38:04,862
-I'm going with Abby.
-Yes.
815
00:38:05,482 --> 00:38:07,082
-So-
-No, I'm going, dude. I'll be there.
816
00:38:07,082 --> 00:38:09,562
-Good. All right. Fantastic.
-I just hope they have, I hope they have,
817
00:38:09,562 --> 00:38:09,942
uh...
818
00:38:10,902 --> 00:38:13,562
Oh, that's not gonna be funny anymore. I
lost it. What's the name of that crap that
819
00:38:13,562 --> 00:38:14,122
you guys eat?
820
00:38:15,902 --> 00:38:16,942
-The spread.
-Vegemite?
821
00:38:16,942 --> 00:38:17,602
The spread.
822
00:38:17,922 --> 00:38:19,181
-Vegemite.
-A Vegemite cannoli.
823
00:38:19,182 --> 00:38:21,852
On the cannoli. Yeah, Vegemite cannolis.
No, put some Vegemite on that bad boy.
824
00:38:21,852 --> 00:38:26,242
I found this, I found this one place that
does a, um, a rosemary sea salt
825
00:38:27,862 --> 00:38:28,942
-bagel-
-Oh, gosh
826
00:38:28,942 --> 00:38:30,922
-... with a bacon-
-I'm literally, like, drooling right now
827
00:38:30,922 --> 00:38:34,022
-just hearing the words
-... bacon and scallion schmear. So I
828
00:38:34,682 --> 00:38:37,062
-can't get my nose up.
-Oh, my gosh. That sounds amazing. Now,
829
00:38:37,062 --> 00:38:38,522
I've heard traffic is absolutely terrible,
830
00:38:39,242 --> 00:38:41,702
so I considered, I, uh, here's the deal.
831
00:38:42,462 --> 00:38:45,022
Not seriously, but I did consider, like,
bringing my Onewheel.
832
00:38:45,982 --> 00:38:46,242
-I-
-But,
833
00:38:46,882 --> 00:38:49,312
but the whole point is to be walking with
the people you're with-
834
00:38:49,312 --> 00:38:51,242
-Yeah, just gonna walk everywhere
-... not to, like, be speeding around, you
835
00:38:51,242 --> 00:38:51,442
-know?
-Mm-hmm.
836
00:38:51,442 --> 00:38:52,982
So it's, like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not
gonna do it.
837
00:38:52,982 --> 00:38:56,322
There's one place that's got these maple
bacon donuts, and I was like-
838
00:38:56,322 --> 00:38:57,662
-Yes
-... that's a 30-minute walk away.
839
00:38:57,662 --> 00:38:58,312
-Those are-
-And thank God-
840
00:38:58,312 --> 00:38:59,622
-Oh, yeah
-... it's a 30-minute walk.
841
00:38:59,922 --> 00:39:03,702
-Yeah. Dude, I'd go with that.
-Also, also apparently apple cider donuts
842
00:39:03,702 --> 00:39:04,672
-are available here-
-Okay
843
00:39:04,672 --> 00:39:06,862
... which, you know, as a Michigan man,
this is a thing.
844
00:39:06,862 --> 00:39:09,282
Yes, absolutely. Apple cider donuts, for
sure.
845
00:39:09,282 --> 00:39:10,222
-I was doing my best
California-
-We used to have a, uh,
846
00:39:10,882 --> 00:39:14,002
yeah, we used to have a orchard that we
would stop, it was on our way to church
847
00:39:14,002 --> 00:39:17,422
and on our way to school, and every year
when they'd be making cider, we would go
848
00:39:17,422 --> 00:39:18,962
-get apple cider donuts and cider.
-Mm-hmm.
849
00:39:18,962 --> 00:39:19,662
It was amazing.
850
00:39:20,582 --> 00:39:22,942
-So good.
-Yeah. All of these things. But if you, if
851
00:39:22,942 --> 00:39:26,702
you are more local to Boston than what I
am, 'cause pretty much everyone would be
852
00:39:26,702 --> 00:39:30,472
more local to Boston than what I am, but,
uh, if you have recommendations for coffee
853
00:39:30,472 --> 00:39:32,902
or donuts or cannoli,
854
00:39:33,682 --> 00:39:37,982
uh, I'm happy to walk to the North End
from, from SoWa, where we, where I'm
855
00:39:37,982 --> 00:39:38,562
staying, so-
856
00:39:39,282 --> 00:39:40,862
Or a Sam Adams lager.
857
00:39:41,822 --> 00:39:42,642
Lager.
858
00:39:43,572 --> 00:39:44,092
-Lager.
-Jeez.
859
00:39:44,991 --> 00:39:46,482
Anyway, looking forward to it. Um,
860
00:39:48,002 --> 00:39:51,562
24 days away. It's sneaking up quickly.
The kids are last week of school.
861
00:39:51,562 --> 00:39:53,562
-It is.
-Then they've got two weeks of holidays,
862
00:39:53,622 --> 00:39:57,602
uh, for end of term two, and then they'll
be back for a week, and then I'm off. So
863
00:39:58,382 --> 00:40:00,342
-it's coming up quickly.
-We need to talk about the Australian
864
00:40:00,342 --> 00:40:03,402
schedule for school sometime. We need to
put that on the list for the next time. I
865
00:40:03,402 --> 00:40:05,282
don't understand how it works for you
guys. I'm curious.
866
00:40:05,282 --> 00:40:08,082
We have the summer holidays when it's
summer, the same way that you have summer
867
00:40:08,082 --> 00:40:09,582
-holidays when it's summer.
-But for how long?
868
00:40:11,082 --> 00:40:12,202
Summer holidays are six weeks.
869
00:40:13,002 --> 00:40:15,482
Six weeks. So yeah, so we're way off,
we're off for longer than that. That's
870
00:40:15,482 --> 00:40:16,002
-what I'm saying.
-Mm-hmm.
871
00:40:16,002 --> 00:40:19,972
Like, I feel like you guys take more
frequent, shorter breaks.
872
00:40:19,972 --> 00:40:22,822
-Yeah.
-We take less frequent, but longer breaks.
873
00:40:22,822 --> 00:40:24,202
-We have-
-So, like, in the summertime, my kids are
874
00:40:24,202 --> 00:40:25,062
off from May-
875
00:40:25,742 --> 00:40:27,831
-... four terms in the school year
-... they're off May, June, July. They
876
00:40:27,831 --> 00:40:28,822
don't go back till August.
877
00:40:29,542 --> 00:40:30,962
-Geez.
-Yeah, so they're off for like-
878
00:40:30,962 --> 00:40:31,902
-That's a long time
-... three months, basically.
879
00:40:31,902 --> 00:40:33,611
-Chilling.
-Not really, but, like, two and a half
880
00:40:33,611 --> 00:40:33,962
months.
881
00:40:34,602 --> 00:40:34,862
What are they doing for three months? What
are you doing for three months?
882
00:40:34,862 --> 00:40:38,482
Hanging out. It's summertime, dude. Just
chilling. Like, it's great. Like, it's,
883
00:40:38,482 --> 00:40:39,152
-it's wonderful.
-Yes, it's-
884
00:40:39,152 --> 00:40:40,681
You get a whole break for the whole summer
885
00:40:40,681 --> 00:40:40,681
...
886
00:40:41,462 --> 00:40:45,102
I get it. It's great, but, like, this is
the thing that I don't understand. The
887
00:40:45,102 --> 00:40:46,542
kids have 12 weeks
888
00:40:47,182 --> 00:40:48,102
of holidays a year.
889
00:40:48,882 --> 00:40:51,762
-Hmm. Okay.
-Most jobs give you four weeks of annual
890
00:40:51,762 --> 00:40:52,202
leave a year.
891
00:40:53,002 --> 00:40:53,732
-Yeah, right.
-So, like, what are you doing for the other
892
00:40:53,732 --> 00:40:55,682
-eight weeks?
-So you're... Yeah, I get you. I get you.
893
00:40:55,682 --> 00:40:59,482
You're saying, like, how do parents be
parents for 12 weeks at a... Or, you know,
894
00:40:59,482 --> 00:41:01,582
-for, like, in a row.
-Mm-hmm.
895
00:41:01,582 --> 00:41:04,152
Just like, yeah, I get that. That makes
sense. Um, well, so-
896
00:41:04,152 --> 00:41:07,182
So we, like, we've got out of school
programs and things like that to go to
897
00:41:07,182 --> 00:41:07,822
-during the day-
-Yeah, yeah
898
00:41:07,822 --> 00:41:09,831
... so we're not just sitting at home
all... And our kids are too young.
899
00:41:09,831 --> 00:41:10,932
-And they have those here.
-Like, they can't, they can't just go
900
00:41:10,932 --> 00:41:12,072
-places.
-There's summer camp programs and...
901
00:41:12,962 --> 00:41:13,142
Yeah.
902
00:41:13,822 --> 00:41:16,542
-Yeah.
-Um, but it's like, you know, parents need
903
00:41:16,542 --> 00:41:19,482
to... Like, my mom was a stay-at-home mom,
so the-
904
00:41:19,482 --> 00:41:20,752
-Yeah, same. Our-
-... we were just home with mom during the
905
00:41:20,752 --> 00:41:21,222
-holidays.
-Yeah. Mm-hmm.
906
00:41:21,222 --> 00:41:22,392
But, like, we both work,
907
00:41:23,722 --> 00:41:26,242
so it's like, you know, what do you do?
Fortunately, I work from home-
908
00:41:26,242 --> 00:41:27,581
-That's definitely-
-... so it's okay for the kids to be here.
909
00:41:27,581 --> 00:41:30,202
But, um, yeah. So we've got four term...
Let's do this quickly, and then we can
910
00:41:30,202 --> 00:41:30,531
-wrap up.
-Okay, let's hear it.
911
00:41:30,531 --> 00:41:31,942
-We've got four terms a year.
-Okay.
912
00:41:31,942 --> 00:41:34,562
Terms are typically between 10 and 11
weeks.
913
00:41:34,562 --> 00:41:34,742
Okay.
914
00:41:35,622 --> 00:41:37,932
So every 10, 10 to 11 weeks, they then
have a two-week-
915
00:41:37,932 --> 00:41:40,032
So two and a half months. You have a two
and a half month term-
916
00:41:40,032 --> 00:41:40,582
-Yep
-... basically.
917
00:41:40,582 --> 00:41:41,462
-Yep.
-Yep, okay.
918
00:41:41,462 --> 00:41:41,512
Yep.
919
00:41:42,362 --> 00:41:45,142
Um, as you get older, then we do, you
know, semesters. So you've got semester
920
00:41:45,142 --> 00:41:48,712
one is term one, term two, and then
semester two is term three and term four.
921
00:41:48,712 --> 00:41:50,742
-Okay.
-Which is relevant more for high school,
922
00:41:50,742 --> 00:41:53,752
'cause you, you will change subjects
midyear and things like that, you know-
923
00:41:53,752 --> 00:41:55,661
-Yeah
-... to kind of prepare you for post-high
924
00:41:55,662 --> 00:41:55,842
-school-
-Yep
925
00:41:55,842 --> 00:41:56,542
... and things like that.
926
00:41:57,362 --> 00:41:58,182
Um,
927
00:41:58,242 --> 00:41:59,642
yeah, that's, that's pretty much what it
is.
928
00:41:59,642 --> 00:42:01,842
-And so, and so you do-
-And then six weeks... So it's usually,
929
00:42:01,842 --> 00:42:03,122
-like, the week before-
-Six weeks in between each term?
930
00:42:04,162 --> 00:42:05,342
Uh, two weeks be- between terms.
931
00:42:06,002 --> 00:42:07,041
Two weeks between terms. Okay. Okay.
Gotcha.
932
00:42:07,042 --> 00:42:09,622
Yeah, and six weeks at the end of the
year. So it's usually the week before
933
00:42:09,622 --> 00:42:11,142
Christmas until the end of January.
934
00:42:12,822 --> 00:42:15,362
Okay. The week before Christmas to end of
January. Okay, that makes sense. So it's
935
00:42:15,362 --> 00:42:19,162
like you have a Christmas break, and then
through January you're off, and that's
936
00:42:19,162 --> 00:42:19,902
like your summer break.
937
00:42:20,642 --> 00:42:22,022
-Yeah, that's the summer break.
-Yeah. Yeah.
938
00:42:22,022 --> 00:42:22,602
-And then-
-That makes sense
939
00:42:22,602 --> 00:42:23,481
-... back to it.
-Yep.
940
00:42:23,482 --> 00:42:26,102
-Get out of the house, kids.
-Yep, yep. And it is funny that, like, you
941
00:42:26,102 --> 00:42:29,082
know, your breaks line up with your
Christmas for summer.
942
00:42:29,962 --> 00:42:32,492
You know, for us, it's the middle of
winter, and so it's like-
943
00:42:32,492 --> 00:42:33,802
-Mm-hmm
-... it doesn't make... You know, the,
944
00:42:33,802 --> 00:42:36,982
people, kids don't wanna, like, take a
six-week break in the middle of winter.
945
00:42:36,982 --> 00:42:38,112
-Like-
-No, that's right. Yeah, so you get a
946
00:42:38,112 --> 00:42:39,742
-summer break.
-So we do, we take a little bit shorter
947
00:42:39,742 --> 00:42:42,062
break. Yeah, we take, like, a two-week
break at Christmas time.
948
00:42:42,702 --> 00:42:44,022
-Mm-hmm.
-Uh, Christmas and New Year, and then
949
00:42:44,022 --> 00:42:47,082
you're back at it, you know. You get,
like, a couple days for Thanksgiving or I
950
00:42:47,082 --> 00:42:48,032
guess maybe a week, I don't know.
951
00:42:49,182 --> 00:42:51,462
I don't know. I can't remember all of it,
but, uh, yeah-
952
00:42:51,462 --> 00:42:51,532
I don't know. You're always away on
vacation anyway
953
00:42:51,532 --> 00:42:55,882
... my wife stays at home too. My wife
stays at home. Just get out of here. Andy,
954
00:42:55,882 --> 00:42:58,312
Andy Hinkle said, he was like, "Oh,
Michael was like-"
955
00:42:58,312 --> 00:43:00,022
-He was taking the piss, yeah.
-"... Michael was giving you crap about
956
00:43:00,022 --> 00:43:02,161
never working the other day." It's so
funny.
957
00:43:03,262 --> 00:43:05,981
-It's true.
-Oh, my word. He's just... It's not true.
958
00:43:05,982 --> 00:43:07,742
-It's not true. I-
-I feel like you're going away all the
959
00:43:07,742 --> 00:43:08,042
time.
960
00:43:08,762 --> 00:43:12,622
When? Like, what did I do? I, I'm sc-
Like, okay, so, like, give me the most
961
00:43:12,622 --> 00:43:14,532
-recent-
-These holidays, all of these vacations. I,
962
00:43:14,532 --> 00:43:16,102
-I was like-
-Well, I mean, like, like the one, the one
963
00:43:16,102 --> 00:43:17,422
-recent one-
-... I can't, I've gone to visit family in
964
00:43:17,422 --> 00:43:18,942
-Michigan, like-
-No.
965
00:43:18,942 --> 00:43:20,642
-You were just away.
-Okay, well, that was, that was over a
966
00:43:20,642 --> 00:43:24,971
weekend. That was over a weekend. That
wasn't, like, anything, like, I wasn't off
967
00:43:24,971 --> 00:43:27,722
-of work for that. I left for a weekend.
-Don't go away. Don't go away for weekends.
968
00:43:27,722 --> 00:43:29,202
Just stay at home. It's too much hassle
to go away for two days.
969
00:43:29,202 --> 00:43:32,462
Well, dude, it's like I haven't been, I
haven't been to Michigan for,
970
00:43:33,162 --> 00:43:38,002
like, years, years. And so I needed to get
up there and see some family. So I went
971
00:43:38,002 --> 00:43:43,342
over a weekend. So that was that. The golf
thing was for work. So that was that. So
972
00:43:43,342 --> 00:43:47,062
there's none, no off work time for either
of those. Just...
973
00:43:48,962 --> 00:43:52,802
So I don't wanna hear about it, okay? And
I do have, I do have actual vacations
974
00:43:52,802 --> 00:43:55,362
coming up. Like, we're going to Cedar
Point in a couple weeks.
975
00:43:55,362 --> 00:43:55,762
Mm-hmm.
976
00:43:56,402 --> 00:43:57,702
-So that'll be fun.
-I don't know.
977
00:43:57,702 --> 00:43:58,202
That's great fun.
978
00:43:59,242 --> 00:43:59,882
-All right.
-All right. All right.
979
00:43:59,882 --> 00:44:01,162
-Let's wrap this up before we-
-This sounds good. All right, let's wrap
980
00:44:01,162 --> 00:44:01,872
-it. Go ahead
-... damage our friendship.
981
00:44:02,022 --> 00:44:03,262
Uh, what, what is our...
982
00:44:04,982 --> 00:44:08,402
Damage our friendship based on my PTO
schedule? How is this gonna work?
983
00:44:09,582 --> 00:44:11,692
-You can shake my friendship.
-Are you jealous of my PTO? Is that what...
984
00:44:11,692 --> 00:44:12,342
What is this?
985
00:44:12,982 --> 00:44:13,412
-I am. I am.
-Okay. All right.
986
00:44:13,412 --> 00:44:14,982
I'm not willing to find out. Let's, let's-
987
00:44:14,982 --> 00:44:16,122
-Okay
-... let's cut it off.
988
00:44:16,622 --> 00:44:18,522
-196.
-All right. All right. Let's, uh, 196.
989
00:44:18,522 --> 00:44:19,782
Thanks for sh- hanging out with us, folks.
990
00:44:20,462 --> 00:44:20,842
Uh,
991
00:44:21,702 --> 00:44:24,082
northmeets south.audio/196 for show notes.
992
00:44:25,142 --> 00:44:29,152
Hit us up on X, @michaeldorinda,
@jacobbennett, and, uh, rate us up on your
993
00:44:29,152 --> 00:44:31,462
podcatcher of choice. Five stars would be
incredible. Thanks, everybody. We'll see
994
00:44:31,462 --> 00:44:32,102
you next time. Peace.
995
00:44:33,142 --> 00:44:35,342
Donuts, coffee, cannoli. Let's go.
996
00:44:54,002 --> 00:44:58,982
See you there. Bye.