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speaker-1: But we remember the wrong way.
speaker-0: Hello everybody. Welcome to Health. Sometimes the words are getting a little stuck and it may come out as death and destruction, but that is not what this is about. So we are not a heavy metal band. We are Sue and Sherry and we are really excited to join together. ⁓ the reason we started this podcast was because you and I have amazing conversations that nobody hears.
speaker-1: We'll always open with a maverick trick. And we will just expand into the conversation and then end with a closing question.
speaker-0: We are? Welcome, as we fluff, to depth and disruption. An official welcome to our inaugural first episode of Depth and Disruption. And the reason I pause is because sometimes the words are getting a little stuck and it may come out as death and destruction, but that is not what this is about. So we are not a heavy metal band. We are Sue and Sherry. And we are really excited to join together. ⁓ the reason we started this podcast was because you and I have amazing conversations that nobody hears. And we live in a world where we think there are new conversations that need to be had. And we both do very deep work with very light hearts and see a lot of pain and possibility in the world. And if this conversation amongst soul friends can help people start to ask themselves different questions or see the world through a different lens, and I think we'll be doing a good job.
speaker-1: Great. And yeah, absolutely concur with what you said. So we met just over a year ago and I was expert at Expert Empire in the event and you were there and I remember seeing you and everyone gravitated to you which made me go, Huh, I'm not gonna
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But I I I knew of you, yeah, I think new enough. Everyone in the UK probably knows of you. And then I was very lucky and I actually won ⁓ the mastermind at Expert Empire. So then we got to know each other. And you're right in what you're saying. It was those conversations that just in such a natural way as well. Just devolved. It's one of those relationships, and we've both said it, is a very fractal-based relationship because you know it's only just over a year, but it's like we know each other so so well. And I said one day, I think maybe it's time that the world heard some of our conversation.
speaker-0: Brace yourselves.
speaker-1: Which is why we're here where we are today. But as a wonderful introduction to all of this, what we thought we would do for the first episode is actually learn little bit about
speaker-0: And I will do it right back at you for episode two. So careful, girl.
speaker-1: So, what we want to do is so there's a little bit of a framework, a structure within everything can then deviate from and to. ⁓ we're gonna always open with a maverick truth. And we will just expand into the conversation and then end with a closing question. I love it. So, Sherry, what is our Maverick truth?
speaker-0: We are Today. Our first ever Maverick truth is sometimes confidence is just survival in really good clothes. And squeeze your shoulders.
speaker-1: that one for you. Yes, absolutely. So ⁓ that's what we're starting with. So my first question for you is what do you think people misunderstand the most about you?
speaker-0: Think I'm actually very misunderstood. And I didn't I didn't do it on purpose. It just kind of happened. I think people think I'm a much happier on outgoing person than I naturally am. What people see is true. The colors, the colors, I mean it I'm not faking it. You couldn't fake this even if you tried. All of that is very real. The playfulness, the loudness, that is very real. And that is ⁓ probably about ten percent of who I am. ⁓ I have I am not naturally a happy go lucky person. I am an overthinker, ⁓ both by life experience and probably lots of my delicious DNA. My my Jewish veins run deep with fear and abandonment and curiosity about where I fit and where I don't fit. And while it doesn't play out in terms of necessarily the standard people pleasing framework, it can make life heavier than it needs to be. I have a very, very big, mushy heart and I feel everything. And being a very big feeler in a hard world is a very heavy thing to carry. So I am more melancholy than people would realize. I think the joy that I come to is the baseline I am, but it's a h high road up and a low road down to ride. And ⁓ I think when people you've reflected this to me and so have other people. People who know me and work with me deeply, my front end does not look like what happens when you come in to work with me. The work is a lot deeper I'm not gonna say scary because I think it's scarier not to do the work, but I don't tickle around the edges like we're going in. And I'm much more intuitive than people would realize and I hold people in discomfort a lot more than they'd realize. It's couched in humor and fun because that's who I am. But It is much deeper and ⁓ I'm really glad we're doing this because I think people will get an opportunity to see a different version of both of us in this show because we're those kind of friends. Like Sue has seen me in all of my stuff and I'm very protective of myself. I feel very lucky to know a lot of people and a lot of people don't know me. And that I'm not being I'm not hiding, it's just they that's not what they require from me. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, absolutely. And y you know, I've as you said I've reflected this back to you, where there is you, what I would say you on the stage, which is so beautiful and so colourful. Again, all of your branding reflects that. But yet when we step into an actual room with you, where you are like leading the room, where you're coaching the room, you like you can take people to such a depth. And what I love about you, having experienced you as my coach, is like you literally Take people on a journey, don't you? And it's like people will go as deep as where they feel comfortable to, and there's
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such a wonderful understanding of that from you. Thank you. And so it is this dual aspect of you, and equally I love both parts of you.
speaker-0: Both parts love you best.
speaker-1: I think a lot of people see the state rum, which is again beautiful, colourful, and my god, we need a lot of that in this world, absolutely. But I what I would deeply desire for more people is to see that deeper side of you because it is very special, like very special. Yeah, and you know, I I've worked with a number of people over the years.
speaker-0: So
speaker-1: And there's something again, it's you in your magic. So no one can explain that. But you in your magic is able to really like open things up. And I've experienced that on a number of days with you, where it doesn't just open it up and then you're left like open and wounded in the world, but you open up in a way with such kindness and consideration and being careful. not to open up maybe some people too much because when they then step out in the world is just gonna be pain. But then also allowing people that can open up a bit more to have that experience at the same time.
speaker-0: Thank you. I didn't even pay her for these compliments. Thanks Sue.
speaker-1: You could pay me after. So I would love to know where does this all come from? ⁓
speaker-0: Lori do I know.
speaker-1: So in so what I'm really curious about, so I again I met you just over a year ago. So I I feel like I know you on a soul level, but I don't necessarily know like the human you as in, especially like the past. It's just we have we've had a few of those conversations, but that's not where we've gone. So where does all of this materialise from? Like, is it your childhood? Is it your life experiences? Is it an accumulation of everything? Walk me through that.
speaker-0: Okay, put your wellies on. ⁓ We're going on a Willy Wonka ride. It is all of it. And ⁓ I had a beautiful childhood and I describe it either like in a snow globe or a fishbowl. I grew up in a beautiful religious community and I absolutely adore it. And I loved my childhood and I loved growing up in it and raising my kids in it. And there were big parts of it that did not work for me. The conformity, the everyone watching what everyone does, and ⁓ I went through a very tough divorce. How many years are we? 18 years ago, 17 years ago? Okay. ⁓ something like that. And ⁓ growing up in that community, it's community-based. So it's family-oriented, which is incredible, except if you are a solo unit. And my kids going back and forth from me and their dad, I felt for the first time I was such a good cheerleader of the cause, and I didn't fit. And then when I felt that I realized I've never fit. And I didn't try to fit. I was very extroverted when I was younger. I was raised by two incredible parents who are philanthropists and the community builders. They they started and organized every organization we had in our community. They were president of this and president of that. I
grew up by the on the shoes of my mom and my dad, putting together anything you can think of to help all different causes. And it was beautiful. And they were also the party animals of the town. So they were friends with every range of anyone. So I think a lot of it comes innately from how I was raised and the openness and willingness to bring people in to be part of your world regardless of if it makes sense or not, which is beautiful. And I forgot to check in with myself. I used to think I was as extroverted as them. I'm a Teagman. That's so you it's a badge of honor. And it is, but I'm not. And ⁓ I'm much deeper and quieter than that. And I d had no idea. So at 18 my grandmother who was a Holocaust survivor and my best friend on earth and probably in other places too passed away and it changed me forever. ⁓ my Autoimmune system shut down after she died and I think it was the person who saw me the most was no longer here and then I had no idea how to see myself. I say this now as a fifty two year old. All I knew is it was as though someone stabbed me in the back one day and I've never felt the same since. So a lot of autoimmune issues which I now understand, a lot of misalignment and performance for no one but myself and my own rules that I thought I was supposed to be following. Like no one was hard on me about it. I just as an empath knew the role the world my world needed me to play and boy did I dance and sing. I did not sing, but I can dance. So I ⁓ I'd love to say that that was my turning point, but it wasn't because through the illness, I then thought that was my personality. So I didn't have the space to find out because my parents were incredible and took me to doctors all over the country and alternative and I would sit next to famous actors and actresses with a vitamin C drip in my arm in 1995 before anyone knew about this stuff. And I never felt any better because it wasn't coming from there. So I started to look at the world as a way of me versus the world because my body was revolting. That I could watch friends go hang out and have fun and I couldn't physically do that. And so the performance got even bigger because I couldn't be who everyone thought I was without pushing myself. So I just pushed myself. I didn't have an exit ramp from myself. And then I got married very young, ⁓ and all my friends did too. And ⁓ Respect for my kids and my ex-husband. I just like to tell this part of the story as my experience. It's no, everyone had everything happens for a reason. And ⁓ I had lost myself so much. Motherhood is my everything. I was born to be a mom and I wasn't in the right relationship. So I would never give any of the hard times back because my kids are my world. And I had to save myself from myself in that relationship. I'm not faulting anyone. We all got there how we got there, but was running on adrenaline for so long that when I finally got out of the tough divorce and marriage, I had no idea who I was. And that's really when the journey started because ⁓ Liz Gilbert, who's of one of my favorite authors, which bothers me because I hate it because it's so trite of like divorced woman, whatever. Whatever, she's great. ⁓ I saw her do a talk in New York a bunch of years ago, and she said that at the start of her journey, it's not like she had answers. Like people always ask people who have transformed or try how did you know, how did you know what to do? Don't believe them if they say they knew what to do. Do they have absolutely no? They're making it up and cutting chapters out. She spent a year called Not This and untangling and unraveling, not this relationship, not this job, not this body, not this mindset, not this whatever. And I think people forget that most of us starts by finding out you don't want what you have and it's freaking terrifying. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. No, absolutely. And ⁓ like a lot of the time people don't want to be in that void. They don't want to create the space. But what we don't understand is that actually you need to be okay in that space, in the nothingness to allow the what is to emerge through you. I've shared this analogy before, it's like a shelf. Most of us we have a shelf and we clean off the shelf so it's all nice and tidy and then naturally we gravitate and we start to put things back on the shelf 'cause we just can't have things empty. Yes. We can't have things that have space. We need to fill the space. And so when we give ourselves that space and that means learning to be comfortable in the nothingness. A lot more comes from within.
speaker-0: Yeah, I didn't go down that one so gracefully. I got there. I got thrown thrown off the plank. Dragging screaming bloody fingers. I'm like ⁓ case this was the pocket shelf. Exactly. Excuse me. I will organize the shelves. Thank you very much. I'm in control. Exactly. Exactly. So I'd love to say it was this perfectly nice dandy ride since then. It wasn't. There was a lot of dancing on tables in tequila. There was a lot of breaking my own heart over and over again. There was a lot of almost right and then totally wrong and dancing between victimhood and martyr martyrdom up and down just to make sure that I felt every possible emotion. And I got tired of myself. And I think for a lot of people they don't they're waiting for this musical moment where there's a crescendo in the music and the door opens and they walk out of the fire. Most people change 'cause they're sick of their own bullshit. Yeah. And it's just tiring.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And it it it's so, as you say, tiring and tedious and unfortunately though you can have someone say that to you again and again and again. But until you're the one that goes, actually, yeah, this is a bunch of bullshit, you're probably not gonna then choose to make the changes that are needed.
speaker-0: I also wish the person who would have told old me that a lot of luck, because I probably would have stabbed them. Like you can
t still to now, you tell me to do something, I'm gonna do the opposite, because if you're not there and I have to remember that, it keeps me very present in my own work that I've been doing over twelve years. Just cause I see your potential doesn't mean you want it. And how dare I take away your journey? And I struggle with that in motherhood, I struggle with that in friendships and even with paying clients. I know they're paying me to do it, but it's like, ⁓ I gotta give you a chance to understand what the hell I'm talking about. I'm like, let's go. Let's not waste time. That's not how we grow and change.
speaker-1: No, no, not at all. I mean, a part of me is like, wouldn't that be lovely? And I've definitely been everywhere. It's like, well just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And then we're all gonna be okay. But again, it has to come from within. So you're disruptive by name. What do you think that's cost you personally?
speaker-0: I am. Yes. I love this question because my snarkiness just pops up in my head and I'm like, nothing, you know, little ragey New Yorker. I'll show you. What it's cost me is all the times that I wasn't disruptive because I thought it wasn't allowed, or it was too big, or it was too much, or why do I always have to be contrarian? I'm actually not contrarian. I listen to the beat of my own drum, and every time I do, everything aligns better. People see themselves more, they take their own responsibility. I don't shrink to fit into places I was never supposed to be. I could line up all the times I've forgotten this about myself and ended up six towns over, facing the wrong direction. Like, how the hell did I do this again? ⁓ I forgot myself. So what it's cost me is not realizing realizing that that's my driver and it's not coming from rebellion and I'm not trying to be disagreeable. It just if something doesn't work for me I know instantaneously and when I don't listen, it comes at a very heavy cost.
speaker-1: I love that, I love that. And you're right in what you're saying there. It's like I'm not being disruptive just for the point of being disruptive. I'm being disruptive because that's who I am. Yeah, and and like and that's such a different frequency within which to operate on. And as I say, I've seen people with you as well, and it's like I think they're like, ⁓ we want your disruptiveness, but it's like, but if that's not naturally who you are, if that's not the natural order for you, it
speaker-0: Yes. No. No, I'm always like, this is not contagious. You can't sit next to me, it's gonna rub off on you. Nor is it very easy. Like, you wanna swap seats, I'd love to sit down and be quiet for a little while. To me it's about finding your edge, your own quirks. So if it's your geeky side, embrace that. If it's your wise sage wisdom, embrace that. Like it's just finding what I call your maverick, what what that piece of magic is that when it clicks in, everything makes sense because you're not looking on someone else's pathway. Even when it it's very tiring to be me. I'm not gonna pretend it's not. It's not always fun, but it is mine.
speaker-1: Yeah, and as you say, and and I think that's a huge part of it there. It's like when you have this baseline where you're just like, This is who I am, like this is what not who I'm pretending to be, not who I'm trying to mould myself into being, but like this is who I am. And you know, I'm the same, I'm like, this is who I am, and I'm definitely not the most polished person, business owner out there. I do things in my messy way because that's who I am. And
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: When you have that baseline and you can return to that time and time again, that's when you'll start to make different decisions. Yes. That's when you'll start to see things differently and it it's this real like what I say, like solidity that you just have within you. And that's not to say that you don't have to put in effort of course or do things or that it's not messy or there are days where you're just like, you know, screw this, I don't want to do
speaker-0: I had one this week. I mean,
speaker-1: Absolutely and and we all and I I think people think okay so authenticity, return into that baseline, whatever we want to call it, like that's when everything's really easy and it's like it can be but you're still human and there's gonna be a lot of humanness.
speaker-0: And we've been conditioned to believe the opposite for a long time. So even when it feels right, we then play the human game of like it feels good, but isn't everyone gonna be mad at me? Or they're not gonna know what the hell I'm doing and I'm gonna be tarred and feathered and left out of the village. And we have this tribal belonging, even when those of us like to not belong, we still don't wanna be left alone. So we have to reconcile where all those voices and opinions are coming from is They're ancient, they're true, and they don't serve us anymore, so who's gonna win? In my brain. That's the game that I play. Like I believe all of you. I just need to reorder this to find out who's leading this time.
speaker-1: I love all of that because I I'm such a believer. So w w when I kind of tune into the frequency of chaos, it's like there's this this real chaos that actually there's so much beauty in chaos. But the only way we can allow that reordering within the chaos is if we are calm. Yes. And so that's from what you were saying. That's kind of what I saw. It's like there's all this chaos, but because I am calm in who I am within it, it does naturally reorder. Yes. And that's not to say sometimes it's a bit overwhelming, or some days that you know I just want to go and hide our and do. Juventude but actually when I am calm in and among all of this chaos I know it will reorder and I just need to chill out and allow that to happen. Okay, so I have ⁓ a final question.
speaker-0: Yeah. Uh-oh.
speaker-1: What do you think people are hungry for right now?
speaker-0: Big one.
I think people are hungry for certainty they can't find, and it's causing a lot more chaos.
speaker-1: Yes, ⁓ my god that that sent chills throughout my entire body. Yes, yes.
speaker-0: And I think it's the wrong thing to look for right now.
speaker-1: I'm gonna take it. I'm like, ⁓ okay. Wow, yes.
speaker-0: 'Cause there's so much uncertainty. The answer to uncertainty is not certainty, it's curiosity and space and different questions, which people are terrified to ask, which you and I live by that. So you and I have been waiting for the season our whole lives. Yeah, yeah. We're like finally.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, but you're right, you're absolutely right with that. Yeah, it needs curiosity and it needs space and people are so busy and distracted and really again what they're operating from and and I I talk about this generally but it isn't everyone. But there are a lot of people that are operating from survival. Yes. And so they don't believe that they can give space to that curiosity and space. But by not doing that, they're going nowhere. And so they're kind of stuck in this moment where it's like I've kind of shed it's like there's this line. And it's like they're feeling the pull here, but they're not giving space or being curious about what all of it is because mentally they need to have that certainty. Yes. They need to know. They need to have the answers because then they can feel safe, which is just putting them right Okay.
speaker-0: And here doesn't work and there is impossible. So there's actually nothing more scary than being stuck in the middle. And you it's a perfect opportunity for media to get control of you. It's a per you the center of you stop spinning when you're not curious and then it is all very sticky. And I'm not gonna get into conspiracy theory stuff, but then right and wrong and moral and immoral start switching places because you're not sure what to believe because the old paradigm is not gonna work anymore. But no one's given anyone a new set of to do lists, which we like, but that's very scary for to do list people.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. No, that that honestly that was such a good answer. I was just like, ⁓ my gosh, yes. So on the back of that, what's one piece of advice then, apart from give yourself more space? Be more curious. What's a real kind of solid practical tool or something that people can do that's gonna encourage them to feel safe in that curiosity and spatial?
speaker-0: I love the way you worded that question. So when we're not sure what to do and we scramble to find more to do, we do the same thing we did before with the same imaginary certainty we had before, so that's not it. What I would encourage people to do is find out what makes them feel unsafe. Find the themes under the stories. Why does this storyline bother you more than that storyline? Why does the trauma in one country enrage you to go march in the streets and the other one, which is more horrible, fly right
over your objectively fly right over your head because I don't have the bandwidth for it? Like when you learn the cadence of where you get stuck and where you move, then it's not about what's happening, it's learning the beat of your own drum, which is to me the whole Maverick Road is when I find out how I tick, I can understand ⁓ what I what I can entrain with. So if I'm looking for more pain, there's lots of it out there. If I'm looking for peace, that's not pretending I'm not, ⁓ don't watch the news. I understand a lot of people don't. It's not helping anyone when we watch it or we don't watch it. It's not that. Don't be uneducated or put your head in the sand. It's find what matters to you and why. Because when we live purposeful lives, we don't get involved in getting spun into other people and other agendas centrifuges. So I think if we start to understand what scares me and why does That one thing scare me so much. It could be ancestral, and I'm not saying you need to diagnose yourself, but you immediately know when something feels deeper or older than a new fear or an old fear. Like start to get to know what your triggers are, because they're much easier to find than your drivers. Your drivers will be much deeper down and we're we run by triggers in our current society. So if you can start to notice and assess and audit, why does that one thing quietly, why does that one thing bother me so much? And this other thing objectively I can see should bother me. bother me, I just it doesn't come into my stratosphere. When we can learn how we do things rather than the what's we get to choose different hows and then the what's change around us.
speaker-1: I love that. I love that. So what there was two words that came through then. One was discernment, which we're circled back to. But the other one is is about matter. And I always say like like and it's kind of what you're alluding to, isn't it? Is like what matters, like what matters, because that's what will then matter. And it's also understanding as well that yes, what matters to you may not matter to all. And like that's okay.
speaker-0: Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah, and there's a lot of right and wrongness going on right now which is making people angrier, more scared, even if they don't have the data for it. They just feel the emotion and they're believing feelings over facts. Now I'm a big feeler, but I know sometimes to remove myself from the feeling, I have to look at the pattern rather than the thing.
speaker-1: Absolutely, yeah, like the passion rather than the thing. Absolutely, because that's where the data is. Like the real data, as you say, the true data, which is actually what we want to be working with. Yeah. I love that. Is there anything before we go to our question at the end, is there anything you would love the listeners to know about you? Apart from everything you just shared.
speaker-0: I would love the listeners to know that being who you want to be in the world still takes work even when it looks like it works from the outside. I find it very hard to be a human being in this current world, despite my beautiful life, despite my beautiful family, despite the travel, and everyone thinks it's so cool and so romantic and all that. I still have to battle myself and my I don't won't call them demons, my angry friends in my head. and Grief, which we'll talk about, and mourning and the loss of past selves and the loss of past time. It is a full-time job to be a human being and serve other people because of the responsibility of cleaning up our own sidewalk before we go help other people. It holds me honest to my craft, but I find it very tiring. And I I'm not saying it for anyone to have pity on me, like, ⁓ poor Sherry, she's tired. It is a real task to show up in the world. to be a catalyst for change while also remembering to take yourself along the ride. I have in many years helped everyone else and not myself and I'm right now in a season of really focusing on taking myself with me and it's very, very unfamiliar to me.
speaker-1: Yeah. No, and I love that because I I imagine that there's so many people as well that they look at what they see externally and almost look at that as like, that's where I need to get to, but not understanding that the internal make-up mechanism is the same in all of us. We've all got those little angry voices in our head, those little haters in our head, and it it's Learning not to allow them to lead the way, really. So, with that, we have our question, ⁓ which we're going to invite all of you as our listeners to contemplate. So, the idea of this, you take the question and you just contemplate it for yourself. So, the question for today's episode is: what version of yourself are you exhausted from maintaining? And that's the end of episode one.
speaker-0: Thank you, Sue. Go team.