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Kelly Sheard: Welcome to Beyond
the Razor Wire Fence. I'm Kelly
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Sheard, the Director of the
Gender Wealth Institute within
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WOMEN'S WAY. Our mission is to
advance gender and racial equity
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by building collective power to
disrupt systems of oppression
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and strengthen alternative
models centered in inclusion,
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love and liberation. Over the
last seven months, WOMEN'S WAY
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facilitated a narrative change
fellowship with seven women and
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gender expansive individuals
with experiences of
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incarceration and reentry. With
help from Love Now Media, our
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fellows honed their storytelling
skill set to advocate for
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economic equity in Philadelphia.
This podcast centers their
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stories. Beyond the Razor Wire
Fence asserts that incarceration
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is a form of wealth extraction.
Moreover, through this podcast,
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fellows depict the
disproportionately deep impact
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for women trans and gender
expansive people. The fellows'
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stories dive deep into how the
carceral system perpetuates the
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gender wealth gap and calls
attention to the
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institutionalized strategies of
extraction before, during and
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after incarceration. Through a
combination of interviews,
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storytelling and research, the
fellows challenge assumptions
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around incarceration and
advocate for a shift in policy
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and culture to move us closer to
a liberatory economy.
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This episode features Monique
Taylor. We'll hear from her,
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listen to her in conversation
with our friends from Love Now
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Media. And finally, we'll
welcome Carol Thomas from
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Project Home, who will sit down
with me to add context to the
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terminology and information
introduced by Monique. Welcome,
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Monique.
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This episode contains mention of
substance abuse disorder, mental
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health struggles, and the opioid
epidemic.
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Monique Taylor: Hi. My name is
Monique Taylor. I am a special
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initiatives outreach worker for
Project Home in the City of
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Philadelphia. I primarily work
in the Kensington community,
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which is the opiate epidemic
center. I grew up, I had, you
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know, my mom, my dad, we grew up
on, I grew up on a farm, and
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when my parents divorced and we
moved away from my dad, I
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started to see depression and,
you know, being sad all the
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time, and I went into using
drugs to escape the abandonment
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that I felt - that my dad had
just abandoned us. And, growing
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up was really difficult,
because, you know, I, we went
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from one place to another. It
was another environment, new
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people to me, and I really
didn't have the experience or
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the socialization with other
people, because I grew up on a
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farm. And when we moved into the
city and my addiction took off,
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I could see my family kind of
struggling like, you know, the
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gender wealth gap had already
set in when I was young. My mom,
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you know, we didn't have a lot
of the luxuries that we used to
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have, and we didn't have a lot
of the necessities. So as my
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addiction escalated, I got into
drugs and introduced into the
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prison system. When I was in the
prison system, I was away from
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home. I was then in Philadelphia
[and] didn't have the access to
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the bare necessities like soap
and sanitary products in the
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prison, and when I would ask for
help at home, my mom, she really
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didn't have it. She had my
children, her grandchildren, and
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she was a single parent at the
time. So, you know, I, I hustled
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in the jail. You know, I went to
work and for 20 bucks a week.
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You know, I used to have to make
my ends meet with just 20 bucks
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every two weeks. And while I was
in jail, I started to realize,
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like a lot of the women that
were there, were either
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returning back into the prison
system for either a parole
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violation or probation
violation. So, I could see that
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this system was designed to keep
us coming back - coming back in.
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You know, you, I never had went
back into the prison system with
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just a new case - it was either
a parole violation or dirty
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urine or something. So, my call
for action is more support in
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the prison system for women that
need support with substance use
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disorder. I am a person in long
term recovery. I celebrate nine
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years this June. I work in a
community that has been ravaged
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from opiates, and I see that
there are support systems there,
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but we don't know how to
navigate to get to them. So I
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think that we need more people
with the lived experience, like
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myself, that know how to
navigate in the system [to]
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prevent people from being
incarcerated because we have
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substance use disorder or a
mental health concern. It can be
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very, very challenging in the
prison system, where they don't
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treat your, you know, the trauma
or the support. They just aren't
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there. You know, it's you do
your time, you get out, and
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you're on your own. And I think
that if we start before we get
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into the prison system, then
there wouldn't be a need for the
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prison. Thank you.
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Nicole Blackson: Hi, I am Nicole
Blackson with Love Now Media,
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and today I will be speaking
with fellow Monique Taylor. So
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let's chat a little bit. You
talked a lot about the gender
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wealth gap, and you took us all
way back to your childhood of
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how you saw it kicking then when
you went from a two parent
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household with your mom and dad
to a one parent household, which
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is living with your mom. Can you
fast forward a little bit and
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tell me a little bit of those
details of when you were in a
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carceral system and you saw
that, when your mom had to take
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care of your children, you
needed more help and you
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couldn't afford to get the bare
essentials while you were in the
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carceral system. You said you
worked. How much did you get
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paid?
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Monique Taylor: Yeah, $1.50 a
day. So, it was like $22.50
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every two weeks.
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Nicole Blackson: Every two
weeks. And what could you get
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with the $22.50?
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Monique Taylor: Not much
[laughs], you know, like I
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could, you know, get my
necessities first. So, like, a
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bar of soap would be like,
$1.50/$1.25, and then they would
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have caps on, like, how much you
could buy of this product. So,
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once I'm finished, like, getting
my necessities. If I could get,
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you know, some oodles of
noodles, or, you know, something
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pre-packaged, cheap - I would
buy it.
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Nicole Blackson: Yeah, I think
that's something to put a cap on
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what you can buy with your money
that you earned. Yeah, it's
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something. So also thinking
about your story in regards to
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just like when you were home and
you said you turned to substance
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use, you know, and you struggled
with that for some years, but
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you also saw that there were a
lot of other women who were in
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the carceral system who
struggled with that. How would
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you want the perception of those
people to change?
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Monique Taylor: First, you know,
stigma. You know, stigma is
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powerful. It really is. Stigma
is something that you could
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persuade somebody's, you know,
vision with stigma. You know,
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so, like, I would, like... I'm
telling you, when I went into
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the prison system, and I seen
most of the women had some form
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of addiction like me, I was
like, you know, well, where's
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the programs at, right? Like,
where's the meeting at? Where is
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the 12 step self help groups at?
And we didn't have any. So I
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would want people to look at
this like, people that have a
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way out, and there is a way out,
but can't get to the way out.
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You know, it's easy to say, 'Oh,
I have this, this and this, but
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how do I get this, this, and
this from you, right?' You know,
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because we have lots of
organizations with lots of
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things in place, but getting to
them, you know, it's like hoops
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of fire.
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Nicole Blackson: Yeah. So what
I'm hearing is, like, the
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accessibility to the supports as
well, and that's why you're
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inside, but also why you're
outside?
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Monique Taylor: Yes. So while
we're inside, there's really no
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supports. You know, you get all
these pamphlets and
posters on
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the boards in jail as you're
walking down the hallway. They
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say, 'Oh, we have this, we have
that.' But then when you get out
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and you try to access the things
that they had, it's like, 'Oh,
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do you have insurance? You know,
do you have an opiate addiction
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as opposed to a crack cocaine
addiction?' So they they try to,
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like, start separating the
drugs. And you can't separate
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the drug, because the drug does
not have any prejudice. It
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doesn't care where you come
from, what you look like...You
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know, what color you are, what
gender you are. It doesn't
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matter to the drug, so we have
to take that concept on, like,
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it shouldn't matter to us. If
you want help, we want to be
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here to help you.
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Nicole Blackson: So what made
you go into this line of work? I
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know you say you work in
Kensington, and you're working
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with people who are in recovery
as well. What made you go into
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this line of work?
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Monique Taylor: Because it takes
one to know one. So, going into
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the Kensington community where
people are actively using, it
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takes a lot of courage. You
know, especially for someone
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like myself; I am in long term
recovery, but like I was
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explaining to someone, sobriety
and recovery are two different
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things.
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Nicole Blackson: Please explain
it.
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Monique Taylor: So, sobriety are
people who actively don't use.
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Recovery is for people who don't
use and work on their behavior.
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So, I had to work on me. You
know, it was easy for me to want
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to help other people, but I
needed help. You know, so I had
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to help me, to help me, to help
you. You see what I'm saying?
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So, in the Kensington community,
I love my community. I love
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everything about the community,
even though, yeah, it's ugly.
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You know, you see drugs
ravishing... there's nothing
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like it.
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Nicole Blackson: Yeah, yeah. It
is. Just like it moves you to
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tears. It is something that
leaves me
speechless at times
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when I see it. It almost looks
like a zombie apocalypse of
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sorts. Where people are not able
to just kind of be: walk
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upright, simple things, talk,
you know, just move with some
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fluidity. It is something to
see. It really is. So thinking
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about when you said, you know,
you just had to start working on
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you. Can you tell us the time
when you realized, 'I gotta get
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Mo together?'
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Unknown: I'll never forget the
time my mom had been diagnosed
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with stage four lung cancer, so
that kind of motivated me to
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want to make her last days where
she could be free from not
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feeling like she failed with me,
you know, like... It's nothing
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like having people who love you
want to help you, but you have
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to help yourself first, yeah,
and then you can get all the
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support that you want. But this
is not for people who need it.
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Recovery isn't for people who
need it. Recovery is for people
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who want it. You know, and like,
I needed a lot of things, and I
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wanted a lot of things, but I
don't see any greater fight than
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to fight for your life.
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Nicole Blackson: Yeah,
absolutely.
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Unknown: This is the best fight
I've had [laughs], you know,
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like, I'm so worth it. And the
people that suffer substance use
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disorders, they have to realize
that you're worth it too. You
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know, so, yeah.
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Nicole Blackson: You mentioned
your mom a lot, and I know a
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little bit because we've been in
conversation., What are some of
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the... what are some of the
lessons that she taught you? Or
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the encouragement that she gave
you that you would want to tell
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the people in Kensington.
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Monique Taylor: One of the good
things that I can say I learned
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from my mom is, you know, people
can walk with you, but they
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can't walk for you. You know,
and like, I can, I will be
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willing to walk anywhere with
someone as long as they're
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walking with me. Like, my job is
not a job if people don't allow
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us to help. And like, asking for
help is not an easy thing to do.
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Like we always say, 'Well, why
didn't you ask for help?' Well,
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if it was that easy, I would've
asked [laughs]. You know, it's
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really a skill. It's something
that you have to learn to do,
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because we're so self-reliant
and self-willed.
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Nicole Blackson: What are some
of the things that you... get
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us, that you think get us to
that self-reliance?
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Monique Taylor: Just our
humanism, like, you know,
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self-willed.
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Nicole Blackson: So when you,
let me say this, so when you say
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like, we are just conditioned to
be so self-reliant and to be so
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self-willing that we have a hard
time asking for help. So, what
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gets in the way of us asking for
help?
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Monique Taylor: Our ego, our
pride. You know, shame. You
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know, the guilt of, like,
usually, when we have to ask for
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help, for most of us in the
world that I come from, it is
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from a behavior that needs to be
consequences for it. So, like,
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you know, begging at the mercy
of the court, you know. And so,
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like, I never felt like I should
have to ask for mercy from the
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court. I'm suffering from a
disease. Like, I'm sick, you
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know what I'm saying? Like, and
in the beginning of my
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addiction, it, substance use
disorder, was not a disease, you
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know? So, like, you always gonna
go to jail when they didn't look
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at it like that. So, like, where
is the support and the help in
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that? You know, you locked me
up, but yet you say I'm the one
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who's sick [laughs].
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Nicole Blackson: Right, right?
So, with the design, with women
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in mind, and with those who are
experiencing substance disorder,
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what would be your call to
action?
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Monique Taylor: Oh, I have so
many of them, but my main -
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Nicole Blackson: - give me your
top three.
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Monique Taylor: My, my main call
to action is: if there is some
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Nicole Blackson: And not just
treat the behaviors.
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form of consequence for
the
behavior, so like most of the
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women that I know that are in
substance use disorder, they
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street work. You know what I'm
saying? They go hand in glove.
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So, like, how do you remove them
from the street, but you don't
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help them with the addiction? So
I get, [it] all boils down to,
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something had to happen, just
like for me - my parents got
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divorced, my depression set in,
I didn't, couldn't identify with
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it, used drugs - so there's some
form of trauma here. And we need
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to start opening up the
floodgates so that we can
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address these traumas.
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Monique Taylor: Yeah, everyone
is different. So like, if we
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don't work on addressing traumas
and mental health and having
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access to support systems where
they're not weeding us out
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because we don't fit this
criteria, we don't fit that
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criteria, and making it
inclusive. You know, we see
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another concern of mine was, in
the LGBTQ community, how we see
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more people in the T category -
the transgender people, Black
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and Brown, with the highest rate
of suicide, had the highest rate
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of substance use disorder... So
we're starting to see that this
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is bigger than what we thought
it was. You know, Kensington is
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just a symptom of a bigger
issue. We can't always treat
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behaviors, but we can always
help treat the people that are
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suffering from their behaviors.
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Nicole Blackson: Yeah. Thank you
so much for joining me today.
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Thank you. I appreciate you
always.
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Monique Taylor: I thank you too.
Have a nice one.
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Nicole Blackson: Thank you.
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Unknown: A note of context from
WOMEN'S WAY. Medication assisted
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treatment is a research backed
gold standard of care for opioid
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use disorder. Typically, there
are three medications used to
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00:19:02,904 --> 00:19:06,112
treat OUD or opioid use
disorder, and they have been
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shown to be safe, feasible, and
effective in reducing overdose
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deaths as a part of a long term
treatment plan. While Medicaid
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can pay for medication assisted
treatment for someone who is not
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incarcerated, Federal law
prohibits Medicaid from paying
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for this treatment while someone
is incarcerated. This is known
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as the inmate exclusion.
Treatment and recovery services
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can be the difference between
life or death for those who have
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opioid use disorder, and the
time period after incarceration
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can be an extremely critical
time frame in the reentry
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journey. One report from the
U.S. Department of Health and
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Human Services says that
mortality among returning
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community members is
significantly elevated in the
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post release period, especially
in the week after release when
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overdose, suicide, and homicide
are the leading causes of death.
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For those incarcerated folks who
are returning home, they may
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face challenges such as
inability to access and afford
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treatment, bureaucratic hurdles
to reinstate Medicaid or apply
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for Medicaid, limited health
record data sharing between
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carceral institutions and health
providers, and the pressing
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needs to find housing, food, and
employment upon release.
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Kelly Sheard: Hello, my name is
Kelly Sheard. I'm the Director
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of the Gender Wealth Institute
within WOMEN'S WAY. And I'm very
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pleased to be joined here by
Carol Thomas, Director of
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Strategic Initiatives and
Supportive Services at Project
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Home. Welcome, Carol.
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Carol Thomas: Thanks for having
me.
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Kelly Sheard: Yes, yes, we are
really appreciative to have your
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expertise and your experience to
give us some context into the
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stories that we're hearing. So,
I wonder if you can start off by
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talking about the connection
between substance abuse and
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women who are incarcerated. How
are they related?
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Carol Thomas: Well, I'm going to
start with a statistic. So, in
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2023, 72% of women were
identified, who are
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incarcerated, as having a
diagnosed substance abuse
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disorder where they fit the
criteria. And now, the latest
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statistics, they have gone up
to
about 85% and when you look at
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that, the correlation is so
clear. Substance use actually
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impacts women in a very
different way, and it's often
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survival, it's often
desperation, it's poor judgment,
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because they're caught up in the
cycle of addiction. And when you
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compare that to the male
statistic, only about 62% of men
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have been diagnosed with a
substance use disorder, so it
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really is a devastating impact
on women.
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Kelly Sheard: Thank you for
that. What are approaches for
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treating substance abuse
disorders that do not involve
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incarceration, and how do you
think we should treat community
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members who harm others as a
result of their addiction. What
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should we do?
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Carol Thomas: Well, there are
multiple approaches. We have, in
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Philadelphia, which has been
part of the restorative justice,
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as well as putting participants
first in the behavioral health
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system, they have shored up the
system so that there's options
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for outpatient, intensive,
probation, inpatient... We have
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psychotherapy, as well as a
focus on CBT, which is Cognitive
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Behavioral Therapy, along with
Dialectical Behavioral Therapy,
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which are evidence based
practices that help women who
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are in the throes of their
addiction, and especially help
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women who are incarcerated. So,
and those folks can also, before
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they even get incarcerated, can
be in pre chop trial status
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where they have options to get
into these programs that can
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help them maintain family
stability and community support.
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So, there are multiple
approaches, but they're not
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always easy to access for
people.
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We really don't do a great job
on having a clearing house where
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people know about all these
services. So, unless you are
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working with a social worker or
a social service organization,
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or even a peer organization that
knows how to access the
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services, know they exist...
there has always been a
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disconnect. And we are working
on that with wellness fairs and
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various fairs, but you have to
bring the people in. So if
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someone's in their active
addiction, they'll walk right
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past the fair, unless there's
some motivation to come in. And
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the second part you talked
about, what should we do with
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community members who hurt? You
have to define hurt. So what
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does that mean? Does it mean
that if you went and you broke
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in a house and took the pipes
out, or robbed somebody and you
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just robbed them and left? Yes,
it's a terrible thing, and we
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don't condone it, but that's not
hurt on the level that a violent
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crime happened. So you have to
really look at the individual,
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and you have to look at the
circumstances, and you don't put
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everyone who's under the
influence in the same place.
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What you find is, you have to
listen to stories. And, I've I
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had that experience for 18
years. I oversaw a licensed drug
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and alcohol affairs program for
men coming out of prison. And
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they would always say, 'oh, you
can't take anybody who is an
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arsonist.' And I said, 'hmm, an
arsonist?', and I said, 'I'd
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like to go to prison and listen
to people's stories.' I wanted
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to do the interview and not
leave it up to a courtroom
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worker who said, 'this is an
egregious crime.' And almost
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every arson crime had to do with
the person smoking crack in an
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abandoned building and
accidentally set it on fire.
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That is not arson. That is not
an intent to harm. So, I asked
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the court, could we start taking
them? And I asked my staff, as
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well as myself, can we go in and
interview people? We needed to
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hear the stories. We need to
hear what the individual has to
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say about their life. Because
once you're incarcerated, you're
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sitting there, and you can't
help but think about your life.
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But, oftentimes, people in the
throes of their addiction, don't
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have insight into the harm that
they have caused. So, if it's no
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harm hurt, I mean, it has some
harm, but there was no violence.
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00:28:02,336
I think people should be given
the opportunity to have the
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opportunity to go out and get
help, to work on their
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addiction, to work on their
behavioral health - which is
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substance abuse and mental
health. So, we need to give
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people choices and options, and
also educate them about those
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choices and option. And I can
speak to, if someone has engaged
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Why is that? Can you talk a
little bit about that? Why is it
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in a violent crime, there should
be consequences for their
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actions. And, having worked in
the forensic system, there were
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hard to access these multiple
approaches?
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people who came out and had to
be sent back because of
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behaviors of continued criminal
activity, not continued drug
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use, but criminal activity. So,
you have to make the distinction.
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Kelly Sheard: It sounds like the
time and space to reflect and
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00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,180
understand nuance is important
when thinking about what's the
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right approach for helping
someone with substance abuse
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disorder. And, you know, the
carceral system is not always
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00:29:14,170 --> 00:29:16,930
the right approach, but we need
some space to be able to
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consider that, which is
important. One last question for
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you, what is the one thing you
think community members should
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00:29:24,490 --> 00:29:28,450
understand as we think about
creating healing conditions for
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00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:31,540
folks who are returning home
from incarceration?
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00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,870
Carol Thomas: When I looked at
that question, it's very hard to
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00:29:37,870 --> 00:29:45,640
pare it down to one thing, but
if I had to, I would say that we
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00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:52,420
need to have a system that
embraces people for who they
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are. They are returning
citizens. They are our mothers,
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our sisters, our cousins, our
friends, our lovers. And,
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00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:10,870
acceptance. There's so much
stigma with having been
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00:30:11,530 --> 00:30:17,650
incarcerated. I don't use the
word offender, because, okay,
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00:30:17,710 --> 00:30:22,870
you committed a crime. You also
have been incarcerated. You did
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the time. You are now a person
who is returning to the
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community. And, if I could do
one thing, I would have peers. I
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00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:41,320
would have, create a peer
program for every person who is
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coming out of our county jails.
Right now, we only have 363
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00:30:48,490 --> 00:30:55,810
women incarcerated in the county
system in Pennsylvania. We can
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00:30:55,900 --> 00:31:02,800
absolutely, absolutely create
and put money to good use to
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00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:09,190
create peers, to create a peer
support network, to help people
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00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:12,400
make that transition that is so
hard.
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00:31:13,260 --> 00:31:15,600
Kelly Sheard: It sounds like we
will heal in community, and I
403
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,920
thank you for reminding us of
that. I wish we had more time to
404
00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:22,830
take a deeper dive, but I
appreciate all your expertise.
405
00:31:22,830 --> 00:31:23,610
Thank you, Carol.
406
00:31:23,650 --> 00:31:24,820
Carol Thomas: Thank you for
inviting me.
407
00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:27,940
Kelly Sheard: Thanks for
listening to behind [Beyond] the
408
00:31:27,940 --> 00:31:31,000
Razor Wire Fence. This podcast
is brought to you in
409
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,540
collaboration with WOMEN'S WAY,
Change the Narrative fellows,
410
00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:37,360
Love Now Media and lil'
Drummaboy Recordings.