Trascrizione completa di WKPWP Interview Classic (9-29-2016): Keller interviews ex-WWE writer Kevin Eck with fascinating insights on current TNA prospects in WWE

wrestlers taking sides in who they want to 65 00:04:34.300 --> 00:04:39.279 win this battle for ownership and control. And I wouldn't 66 00:04:39.300 --> 00:04:41.019 say the locker room is divided. I kind of sense 67 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:43.470 there's a strong leaning towards one of the, one of 68 00:04:43.490 --> 00:04:46.670 the ownership groups and leaders in this effort to keep 69 00:04:46.689 --> 00:04:49.699 TNA alive. But it's going to be interesting how this 70 00:04:49.740 --> 00:04:52.439 plays out between now and the biggest show of the year, 71 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.399 Bound for Glory, and then scheduled five straight days of 72 00:04:56.420 --> 00:04:59.699 TV tapings. This is, as one wrestler put it, this 73 00:04:59.740 --> 00:05:04.939 happens before TV tapings in the past and a previous pay-per-view. 74 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:09.680 It just happens to be more public. From what I'm hearing, 75 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:11.850 I would raise it up a level or two from that. 76 00:05:12.379 --> 00:05:16.100 based on what I'm hearing. So interesting story to keep 77 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:23.459 our eye on. I can say with some confidence that 78 00:05:23.899 --> 00:05:27.350 based on some information right before going live, that things 79 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:32.930 are leaning towards what people I trust are saying will 80 00:05:32.970 --> 00:05:35.610 be a happy ending for people who want to see 81 00:05:35.670 --> 00:05:40.199 TNA survive and move forward, at least for now. with 82 00:05:40.259 --> 00:05:44.459 an ownership group that has earned the trust of the 83 00:05:44.500 --> 00:05:49.060 wrestlers and not damaged it. So, I can't speak any 84 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:51.569 more specifically than that because this story, even since I 85 00:05:51.589 --> 00:05:53.550 went on the air, I'm getting information from a couple 86 00:05:53.589 --> 00:05:55.949 sources on what is going on here. But certainly a 87 00:05:55.990 --> 00:05:59.069 big story. We'll be following it all weekend. Check back 88 00:05:59.129 --> 00:06:02.910 at pwtorch.com for details and for the most thorough coverage 89 00:06:03.430 --> 00:06:07.699 of this type of story. And not just the facts 90 00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:11.009 of what's going on, also trying to Break through and 91 00:06:11.569 --> 00:06:14.569 say which rumors are credible and which ones aren't. And 92 00:06:14.610 --> 00:06:18.329 get analysis and historical perspective and analysis of what this 93 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.389 means going forward. I don't think there's a better team 94 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:24.879 on the planet covering pro wrestling than the PWTorch VIP 95 00:06:25.459 --> 00:06:29.079 audio analysts and writers. So check out PWTorch.com and even better, 96 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:31.600 go VIP to get my every single day Wade Keller 97 00:06:31.620 --> 00:06:34.139 hotline where if there's big news breaking, I cover it. 98 00:06:34.850 --> 00:06:38.360 and some great

weekly in-depth audio shows with top-shelf analysts. 99 00:06:38.379 --> 00:06:41.899 The place to go to get information on that is pwtorch.com 100 00:06:42.500 --> 00:06:50.470 slash govip. pwtorch.com slash govip. As I mentioned to one 101 00:06:50.490 --> 00:06:54.439 of the wrestlers in TNA, I'm here to cover it, 102 00:06:55.269 --> 00:06:57.089 I'm here to analyze it, I'm here to evaluate it, 103 00:06:57.730 --> 00:07:01.470 and not take sides, but my overall goal is I 104 00:07:01.550 --> 00:07:03.290 don't know if goal is the word. My overall hope 105 00:07:03.610 --> 00:07:06.740 is that when the dust settles and a few months 106 00:07:06.769 --> 00:07:10.720 from now, TNA is stronger or a company similar to TNA, 107 00:07:11.019 --> 00:07:13.180 if they don't keep the letters in the name or 108 00:07:13.420 --> 00:07:15.279 who knows what happens with all of this. But you 109 00:07:15.300 --> 00:07:19.360 always want there to be a check, checks and balances 110 00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:23.689 in any industry. People who love MMA hope for Bellator 111 00:07:23.790 --> 00:07:28.430 to make strong decisions and give fighters an option to 112 00:07:29.589 --> 00:07:34.189 negotiate against UFC. to give them some leverage when negotiating 113 00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:37.740 for base pay and give fans an alternative way to 114 00:07:37.779 --> 00:07:42.740 present MMA. We had a column on MMATorch.com yesterday by 115 00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:45.750 Frank Gonzalez talking about Invicta and their portrayal of women's 116 00:07:45.810 --> 00:07:50.670 fighting and how it's so much less sexist than the 117 00:07:50.709 --> 00:07:54.930 way that women's divisions are talked about and presented in some, 118 00:07:55.110 --> 00:07:59.829 and in some cases, many instances, in USC and Bellator divisions. So, 119 00:08:00.029 --> 00:08:03.009 you know, the hope here is pro wrestling is stronger 120 00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:06.370 when there's more jobs, more TV shows, and more good booking. 121 00:08:06.810 --> 00:08:11.220 And I think most objective observers would say, even subjective observers, 122 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:13.879 would say that TNA has been on more of a 123 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.019 role this year creatively than they have been in a 124 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:20.519 long time. I don't know that they've had a year 125 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:25.730 where there has been more, this much praise compared to ridicule, mocking, 126 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:29.579 and criticism than 2016. And In that sense, I think 127 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:31.300 it would be a shame if things came to an end. 128 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.360 But as I said, even since I went on the air, 129 00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:38.389 I got a note that things are looking good for 130 00:08:40.350 --> 00:08:42.029 things to play out in a positive way, for Bound 131 00:08:42.049 --> 00:08:43.830 for Glory to take place on Sunday, TV tapings to 132 00:08:43.850 --> 00:08:48.049 take place, and some positive thoughts from the crew on 133 00:08:48.070 --> 00:08:49.690 the way things are shaking out. But like I said, 134 00:08:49.730 --> 00:08:52.389 it is a story in progress. All right. Today's guest 135 00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:56.250 on Interview Thursday is ex-WWE creative team member Kevin Eck. 136 00:08:56.629 --> 00:08:57.889 He has been on the show a couple times this 137 00:08:57.950 --> 00:09:01.429 year and is a fantastic guest. Without further delay, let's 138 00:09:01.450 --> 00:09:03.269 bring Kevin Eck into the program. Kevin, thanks for indulging 139 00:09:03.309 --> 00:09:04.590 me as I kind of covered a little bit on 140 00:09:04.610 --> 00:09:06.919 that breaking news on TNA. I spent a good part 141 00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:09.480 of the morning tracking the story, and it continues to develop. 142 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.080 Are you hearing anything on this front? And what's your 143 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:15.460 take on what's going on with TNA Impact Wrestling? 144 00:09:17.340 --> 00:09:20.769 Well, thanks, Wade, for having me. No, I don't have 145 00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:23.350 any inside information on that. I'm not really hearing anything. 146 00:09:23.850 --> 00:09:27.179 much beyond what everyone else is reading and hearing at 147 00:09:27.220 --> 00:09:31.600 this point. I'm very encouraged, though, by what you just said, 148 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:34.720 that it's looking, even though it's a fluid story and 149 00:09:35.259 --> 00:09:38.159 still developing, the fact that it looks like there's a 150 00:09:38.210 --> 00:09:40.710 better chance of a happy ending than maybe we thought 151 00:09:40.730 --> 00:09:44.610 even 24 hours ago. I think, as you astutely pointed out, 152 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:48.629 that's great for the wrestling business. As long as there 153 00:09:48.649 --> 00:09:52.899 is You know, another place to work for everyone. You know, 154 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:55.950 every wrestling fan, whether they love TNA, hate it or 155 00:09:56.169 --> 00:09:58.149 are indifferent, should at the end of the day be 156 00:09:58.210 --> 00:10:01.730 rooting for it to survive. Um, and it's, um, you know, 157 00:10:01.750 --> 00:10:04.049 maybe to even thrive because it's just good for the 158 00:10:04.090 --> 00:10:06.549 overall industry. It's great for the guys in it. It's 159 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:09.080 great for the people that work behind the scenes. And 160 00:10:09.259 --> 00:10:11.879 really when I, you know, have been following the story, 161 00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:15.460 it brought back so many memories of, uh, of me 162 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.769 working in, uh, WCW back in the day. You know, I, 163 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:22.179 I took a job as the editor of WCW Magazine 164 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.799 back in 2000, and my stint there lasted about a 165 00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:28.919 year to the day because in March of 2001, Shane 166 00:10:28.950 --> 00:10:35.750 McMahon

walked out on Nitro in Panama City, Florida, and 167 00:10:36.190 --> 00:10:41.330 history was changed. Everyone that worked for WCW, save for 168 00:10:41.509 --> 00:10:45.210 a handful of talents, the WWE absorbed their contracts, were 169 00:10:45.230 --> 00:10:47.269 put out of business. So I think about it from 170 00:10:47.309 --> 00:10:50.399 that standpoint as well. it's not just the wrestlers, you know, 171 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:52.149 the talent in TNA, there are a whole bunch of 172 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:54.500 people that work behind the scenes that, you know, this 173 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:55.870 is what they do for a living and this is 174 00:10:55.909 --> 00:10:58.590 their job. And, um, you know, they're going to be 175 00:10:58.610 --> 00:11:00.950 affected by this. And, and I would hate for them 176 00:11:00.990 --> 00:11:03.330 to be negatively affected, even though, you know, I have 177 00:11:03.370 --> 00:11:05.429 some friends there, I have some former colleagues there. There's 178 00:11:05.450 --> 00:11:07.169 a lot of people there I've never met, but I 179 00:11:07.190 --> 00:11:09.929 still feel for them and the uncertainty that they're going 180 00:11:09.950 --> 00:11:12.850 through because I went through it at one time, you know, 181 00:11:12.850 --> 00:11:15.350 15 years ago. And, uh, and it's not a lot 182 00:11:15.389 --> 00:11:18.029 of fun. It's not fun when you're, You're getting your 183 00:11:18.100 --> 00:11:20.639 news sometimes not from inside the company. You don't know 184 00:11:20.659 --> 00:11:24.080 what's going on. You're relying on Wade Keller and Dave 185 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:26.860 Meltzer and other people to read and find out what's 186 00:11:26.899 --> 00:11:29.820 going on in the place that you work. So it's 187 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.659 not a good time for them, I'm sure. But I 188 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:34.440 hope you're right. I hope what you're hearing is right. 189 00:11:34.539 --> 00:11:37.039 And it's going to play out for a happy ending, 190 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:40.220 not just for Bound for Glory, not just for TV tapings, 191 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:44.149 but hopefully going forward that TNA can finally be on 192 00:11:44.210 --> 00:11:47.299 some stable ground. If there's one thing I've learned... about 193 00:11:47.350 --> 00:11:51.049 TNA over the past 14 years. It's that, man, they 194 00:11:51.070 --> 00:11:54.730 can make a comeback, you know. They make better comebacks 195 00:11:54.750 --> 00:11:57.809 than Shawn Michaels. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable. So 196 00:11:57.850 --> 00:12:01.769 many times people have written this company off, and, you know, 197 00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:04.429 one thing you can say about them is they are resilient. 198 00:12:06.590 --> 00:12:09.919 Did you know that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of 199 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:13.019 all of your favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? 200 00:12:14.190 --> 00:12:18.830 Just go to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a 201 00:12:18.850 --> 00:12:21.320 VIP membership tier. You get a seven-day free trial, by 202 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.019 the way, to kick the tires a bit and see 203 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.779 if you like the service. And then sync it with Spotify, 204 00:12:25.899 --> 00:12:28.419 and you can listen to commercial-free versions of our free 205 00:12:28.460 --> 00:12:30.320 shows like the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller 206 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:33.809 Podcast Flagship, our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch Daily Cast 207 00:12:33.850 --> 00:12:37.330 lineup online. Again, all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. 208 00:12:37.509 --> 00:12:40.029 But with third-tier membership, you can also unlock all the 209 00:12:40.049 --> 00:12:43.070 VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade, The Fix 210 00:12:43.090 --> 00:12:44.730 with Todd Martin that I host with Todd every week, 211 00:12:45.169 --> 00:12:49.149 the Wade Keller News Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array 212 00:12:49.220 --> 00:12:53.000 of other VIP-exclusive podcasts with different hosts and different themes. 213 00:12:53.500 --> 00:12:57.480 Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PWTorch 214 00:12:57.940 --> 00:13:00.460 and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or stay 215 00:13:00.580 --> 00:13:04.220 within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works. Go to Patreon 216 00:13:04.389 --> 00:13:08.960 and start your seven day free trial. No question about it. 217 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:12.259 And as we say, they are resilient. It strikes me 218 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:15.639 that the people who have been resilient have changed over 219 00:13:15.659 --> 00:13:19.000 the years, too. Like it's not as if there's this singular, 220 00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:22.980 you know, it's not Jerry Jarrett start to finish doing this. 221 00:13:23.059 --> 00:13:25.600 It was Jerry ran ran into some Jerry and Jeff, 222 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:28.100 but especially Jerry ran into some major issues with Jay 223 00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:32.330 Haasman and some other Jerry accused Jay of deceptive business 224 00:13:32.370 --> 00:13:34.990 figures when it came to the initial pay-per-view buys that 225 00:13:35.009 --> 00:13:37.429 led to Jerry spending more money than he had, and 226 00:13:37.450 --> 00:13:39.929 he ran out of money when it turned out the 227 00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:43.100 figures he was given were 80% to 90% overstated and 228 00:13:43.129 --> 00:13:46.059 that he could have survived better had he paced himself, 229 00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:50.320 but he was optimistic. If you are told you're going 230 00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:52.039 to get a bonus at the end of the year, 231 00:13:52.059 --> 00:13:56.220 a work bonus because the company had a great year 232 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:57.799 and you're going to get $ 20, 000 and you go buy 233 00:13:57.820 -->

00:14:01.190 a new car and then suddenly... It turns out, oh, sorry, nope, 234 00:14:01.309 --> 00:14:03.769 the bonus is $ 20. We were wrong. And you've got 235 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:04.809 three years of car payments. 236 00:14:04.830 --> 00:14:05.309 You're screwed. 237 00:14:05.350 --> 00:14:07.470 And Jerry was. And one thing led to another. And 238 00:14:07.490 --> 00:14:09.649 then Dixie Carter and Panda Energy came in. And then 239 00:14:09.830 --> 00:14:11.389 it looked multiple times that they were going to pull 240 00:14:11.409 --> 00:14:15.049 the plug on funding. And finally, Dixie's parents did. And 241 00:14:15.070 --> 00:14:17.110 then Dixie still found a way to keep it alive. 242 00:14:17.190 --> 00:14:22.059 And now you have various ownership groups and factions within 243 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.039 TNA with Billy Corgan being introduced into the picture and 244 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.860 Dixie Carter still there. And then WWE, too, possibly buying 245 00:14:28.899 --> 00:14:34.340 the company. There's a variety of hoax stories or what 246 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:36.440 appear to be hoax stories going around on that front 247 00:14:36.940 --> 00:14:40.860 or trolling Matt Hardy going after Sunday. You know, it's 248 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:42.919 going to be exciting to see what I do on Monday. 249 00:14:42.980 --> 00:14:44.899 And I know what I'm doing on Monday now. Stay tuned. 250 00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:47.539 And of course, that's just, you know, Matt being Matt. 251 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:50.440 Monday is going to be either impact tapings or raw 252 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.850 for him or he's going to be. filming something for 253 00:14:53.889 --> 00:14:56.399 YouTube at home and have no wrestling company to work 254 00:14:56.419 --> 00:14:59.360 for I mean that can mean anything but yeah you're 255 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:02.980 right the TNA brand there's just something about it despite 256 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:07.429 I don't know five changes now from pay-per-view to Fox 257 00:15:07.470 --> 00:15:12.370 to online to Spike to Destination America to Pop TV 258 00:15:12.429 --> 00:15:17.700 six different major homes for their weekly series and we'll 259 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:20.730 see if they survive but if WWE buys them out, 260 00:15:20.769 --> 00:15:23.110 then their tape library will be exposed to a new audience, Kevin. 261 00:15:23.429 --> 00:15:25.389 And if they're not bought out and they remain on 262 00:15:25.409 --> 00:15:30.740 their own, then there'll be 400,000 plus people collectively counting 263 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:34.019 YouTube views. Well, actually, way more. 300-some thousand people, close 264 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.120 to 400,000, watching on Pop TV each week, and then 265 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:39.139 all the online clips for Matt and Jeff and all 266 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:42.580 the stuff that they're doing, plus international clearances. So, interesting story. Yeah, 267 00:15:42.620

--> 00:15:45.059 I mean, the product's been good this year, and I 268 00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:47.679 hope that they provide an alternate vision. I don't want 269 00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:51.559 NXT to be the only viable alternative vision, and that's 270 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.700 where ROH and TNA especially, and even Lucha Underground come 271 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:59.139 into play. Kevin, I talk so much about TNA, I've 272 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:00.590 got to go to my first commercial break, but we'll 273 00:16:00.610 --> 00:16:02.250 be back right after this. I want to dive into 274 00:16:02.470 --> 00:16:04.669 WWE topics. I want to invite callers to join us. 275 00:16:05.250 --> 00:16:09.149 Kevin Eck, former WWE creative team member, a longtime wrestling journalist, 276 00:16:09.649 --> 00:16:11.009 and we'll talk to him about some of his recent 277 00:16:11.029 --> 00:16:14.250 columns and his thoughts on the current wrestling scene. Right 278 00:16:14.269 --> 00:16:16.149 after this break, give us a call in the meantime, 279 00:16:16.169 --> 00:16:29.509 515- 605-9-345. 515-605-9-345. All right, we are back live with 280 00:16:29.590 --> 00:16:35.950 Kevin Eck. It is 114 Eastern Time on Thursday, September 29th, 2016. 281 00:16:35.950 --> 00:16:39.370 Thanks again to everybody. We're having record numbers of listeners 282 00:16:39.649 --> 00:16:43.110 this month for the live cast. I just hit refresh 283 00:16:43.149 --> 00:16:47.049 on that 30-day listenership total. before hosting the show every day, 284 00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:50.789 and it just keeps climbing upward. And I appreciate that. 285 00:16:50.809 --> 00:16:52.309 I appreciate those of you who have been with us 286 00:16:52.350 --> 00:16:55.190 a long time, and welcome to the new listeners. You 287 00:16:55.210 --> 00:16:58.340 can find our show on demand to stream or download 288 00:16:58.769 --> 00:17:03.379 at pwtorchlivecast.com. That's our homepage. That's where you can go 289 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.079 through back episodes of the live cast also and catch 290 00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:09.200 up on past interviews, and I would recommend doing so 291 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:12.819 for previous interviews with Kevin Eck, My guest today on 292 00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:18.279 Interview Thursday. Kevin, give a brief capsule of your years 293 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:21.019 in WWE and then how far back you go as 294 00:17:21.059 --> 00:17:24.380 a wrestling fan. And then from there, we'll start talking 295 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:25.599 about WWE Hot Topics. 296 00:17:26.940 --> 00:17:30.200 Well, the years in WWE were 2011 to 2014. It's 297 00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:35.200 about three years that I was on the WWE creative team. Um, 298 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.200 before that, uh, as I mentioned earlier, I worked for 299 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.460 a WCW briefly for one year as the editor of, uh, 300 00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:45.950 the company magazine. Uh, and as you also mentioned,

uh, 301 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:48.880 you know, plenty of years as a journalist, uh, spent 302 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:51.809 a long time at the Baltimore sun, uh, writing the 303 00:17:51.849 --> 00:17:55.450 occasional wrestling article, uh, and then started a blog there. 304 00:17:55.529 --> 00:17:58.950 And I think it was 2007 called ring posts. Um, 305 00:17:59.329 --> 00:18:01.109 that has continued without me, by the way, you can 306 00:18:01.130 --> 00:18:03.630 still find that on the Baltimore sun's website, uh, But 307 00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:05.630 as far as being a fan, I go all the 308 00:18:05.670 --> 00:18:10.349 way back to the 70s. I'm dating myself here, but yes, 309 00:18:10.470 --> 00:18:15.250 I'm an older guy. I grew up in Baltimore, so 310 00:18:15.329 --> 00:18:20.369 I was always a WWF fan, going back to the 311 00:18:20.430 --> 00:18:24.509 days of Bruno San Martino and going to shows at 312 00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:26.990 the old Baltimore Civic Center. So I've been a fan 313 00:18:27.069 --> 00:18:31.990 for over 40 years. I was fortunate enough to work 314 00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:36.990 in the business for... the two biggest companies, WWE and WCW. And, uh, 315 00:18:37.529 --> 00:18:39.759 you know, these days I keep my hand in it, 316 00:18:39.910 --> 00:18:42.529 you know, writing, uh, I have a blog, uh, X, 317 00:18:42.549 --> 00:18:45.930 the X factor blog that you can Google it because the, uh, 318 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:48.460 the address is too long to remember. Um, and, uh, 319 00:18:50.059 --> 00:18:52.099 and I'm all, I started a column a couple of 320 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.960 months ago for a, uh, Baltimore based sports website, uh, 321 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.119 called press box. And I have a column there that 322 00:18:59.140 --> 00:19:03.420 comes out every Wednesday called the hot tag. Excellent. 323 00:19:04.700 --> 00:19:07.519 Let's take a phone call. I have questions for you, 324 00:19:07.529 --> 00:19:09.190 but I want to at least get to one early 325 00:19:09.230 --> 00:19:10.710 phone call. We'll take some emails, too, by the way, 326 00:19:10.730 --> 00:19:12.490 if you want to email us during the show if 327 00:19:12.509 --> 00:19:17.230 you're at work or en route somewhere and you want 328 00:19:17.250 --> 00:19:19.329 to ask a quick question or topic at a stoplight, 329 00:19:19.769 --> 00:19:23.990 an email to us. That is pwtorchlivecast at gmail.com. Let's 330 00:19:24.009 --> 00:19:26.750 go to area code 718 first on the VIP Express Lane. 331 00:19:26.769 --> 00:19:28.049 Go ahead and state your name and the city you're 332 00:19:28.069 --> 00:19:28.410 calling from. 333 00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:31.769 Romeo from New York. How are you guys doing? 334 00:19:32.130 --> 00:19:33.230 Doing good. Thanks, Romeo, for calling. 335 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:33.769 What have you got for us? 336 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:38.829 I wanted to do some wild TNA speculation, if you 337 00:19:38.849 --> 00:19:39.269 don't mind. 338 00:19:39.329 --> 00:19:39.980 Sure, what the heck? 339 00:19:40.750 --> 00:19:42.490 I got a list of names. 340 00:19:42.910 --> 00:19:46.329 You tell me, in the event that Vince actually purchased TNA, 341 00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:49.109 which one of these names you think he sent to 342 00:19:49.150 --> 00:19:53.690 the main roster. NXT, or the outright released or told 343 00:19:53.710 --> 00:20:01.279 to stay home. And I got Abyss, Drew Galloway, EC3, 344 00:20:02.180 --> 00:20:03.720 Gail Kim, and Lashley. 345 00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:08.339 All right. Kevin, I'll throw to you first. Abyss, NXT 346 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:09.920 main roster, or discarded? Discarded. 347 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.119 This is just a gut feeling. I don't know anything 348 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:20.230 as far as inside feelings about it. But I would 349 00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:25.150 say probably not either. WWE main roster or NXT. 350 00:20:25.750 --> 00:20:28.250 Yeah, that's my first reaction too. I was trying to 351 00:20:28.369 --> 00:20:30.730 process if I thought that he had any friends in 352 00:20:30.750 --> 00:20:33.890 high places there. People who thought highly of him in 353 00:20:33.930 --> 00:20:36.789 TNA who are in WWE. Because sometimes that's a bigger 354 00:20:36.829 --> 00:20:39.230 difference maker than even Vince's opinion. As someone to recommend 355 00:20:39.269 --> 00:20:44.809 him to Vince. You could imagine... possibly being brought in 356 00:20:45.569 --> 00:20:49.750 if he was willing to work inexpensively in NXT because 357 00:20:49.769 --> 00:20:51.990 of his experience in the ring. But I think the 358 00:20:52.029 --> 00:20:54.470 perception of him is he's pretty beat up and that 359 00:20:54.509 --> 00:20:58.079 he's a garbage wrestler. And that's just not the era 360 00:20:58.099 --> 00:21:01.920 that WWE is in. So he'd need to get himself in. 361 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.420 He'd need to have a reputation or prove that he 362 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.740 was in good shape and could work WWE style. and 363 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.049 not just rely on a bunch of thumbtacks and all that. 364 00:21:12.289 --> 00:21:16.009 So that would work against him. That said, he's had 365 00:21:16.049 --> 00:21:17.950 good matches that don't involve garbage wrestling, and I wish 366 00:21:17.970 --> 00:21:21.589 he had stuck to that more over the years. And 367 00:21:21.609 --> 00:21:24.809 I could see him being a– Bray Wyatt is solo 368 00:21:24.849 --> 00:21:27.049 right now, but he could be a guy who might 369 00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:31.759 be kind of a scary horror movie thug bodyguard for 370 00:21:31.779 --> 00:21:34.339 Bray Wyatt who could take some bumps in the ring 371 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.319 or deliver some punishment. but maybe not be relied upon 372 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:40.039 as necessarily a full-time worker. So I'm kind of just 373 00:21:40.059 --> 00:21:41.900 brainstorming there. I mean, I

could see him landing in 374 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:46.730 all three categories, but my gut reaction is Kevin's, which 375 00:21:46.829 --> 00:21:48.630 is not hired. 376 00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:54.970 Searching for more great pro wrestling talk? Then join me, 377 00:21:55.029 --> 00:21:58.619 Jason Powell, host of the three-weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. 378 00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:01.259 Each week, you'll hear the latest news and analysis from 379 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:04.000 me and my team at ProWrestling.net along with other pro 380 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:07.460 wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast features 381 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:10.859 long-form interviews with notable names in the pro wrestling industry. 382 00:22:11.140 --> 00:22:14.970 Subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your favorite secondary apps, 383 00:22:15.470 --> 00:22:21.089 or visit us directly at pwboom.com. Once again, that's pwboom.com. 384 00:22:24.009 --> 00:22:25.910 Drew Galloway, what do you think of it? 385 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:31.480 Well, I was there during the Drew McIntyre years, and 386 00:22:32.259 --> 00:22:35.880 this is what I'm kind of close to, because... I 387 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.880 was firmly in the Drew McIntyre camp in that I 388 00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:44.740 thought he was vastly underused, underutilized in WWE. And I 389 00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:48.380 pushed a lot for Drew and was an advocate for 390 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.569 him to give him something. 3MB was not exactly what 391 00:22:52.589 --> 00:22:56.150 I had in mind, so I can tell you that. Now, 392 00:22:56.250 --> 00:23:01.910 I know Drew had a certain reputation while I was there. Now, 393 00:23:02.250 --> 00:23:05.369 people's minds can change and people can change. But there 394 00:23:05.410 --> 00:23:08.829 was a perception from some people high up and as 395 00:23:08.890 --> 00:23:13.910 well as a lot of the producers that Drew wasn't 396 00:23:14.230 --> 00:23:18.940 very coachable, that he always knew better, I think was 397 00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:22.220 the way it was put. That if an agent would 398 00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:25.019 talk to him about a match or whatever, make a suggestion, well, 399 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:28.869 Drew would always have a counter-suggestion. And Drew's take was, well, 400 00:23:28.900 --> 00:23:31.450 I just thought we were having a conversation. I thought 401 00:23:31.509 --> 00:23:34.339 my input was wanted. I didn't see it as me 402 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:36.539 always knowing better. So I think there was a real, 403 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:39.799 you know, Drew got a certain reputation there and it 404 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.420 hurt him. And everyone knew that he was good. You know, 405 00:23:43.819 --> 00:23:46.359 obviously the guy's got great size and a great look 406 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:49.220 and is pretty damn good in the ring. But it 407 00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:52.140 was always this perception of his attitude or that he, 408 00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:54.720 you know, he got too much too soon and he 409 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:57.480 took the chosen one. you know, almost thought it was 410 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:00.240 a shoot and that he developed an attitude of, you know, 411 00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:01.900 an air of arrogance. You got to remember though, he 412 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.319 was given a lot at a very young age. And 413 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:05.920 I think even he would tell you, and he has 414 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:08.509 said to me and other people in interviews that, you know, 415 00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:10.670 it was too much too soon for him. And, and, 416 00:24:10.829 --> 00:24:12.650 and he wasn't mature enough to handle the push that 417 00:24:12.690 --> 00:24:16.089 he initially got being labeled as Vince McMahon's chosen one. 418 00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:17.789 And I think he's a different guy now at 31 419 00:24:17.789 --> 00:24:21.349 than he was then. I would think a guy like 420 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:24.490 that with that much talent, no matter what's happened in 421 00:24:24.509 --> 00:24:27.079 the past, I would think he's a guy that could 422 00:24:27.099 --> 00:24:30.240 be welcomed back, whether it was on the main roster 423 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.539 or possibly maybe to humble him and show him you've 424 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.420 got to work your way back up. NXT might be 425 00:24:38.619 --> 00:24:40.599 the place for him to go. I could see that happen. 426 00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:44.960 I agree. First of all, great insight into his time 427 00:24:44.980 --> 00:24:48.420 there and what worked for him and against him. I'm 428 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.900 with you on the idea of them bringing him back. 429 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:54.809 I think they would with this roster split era. and 430 00:24:54.829 --> 00:24:58.109 the need for healthy main eventers. Drew's a guy who 431 00:24:58.150 --> 00:25:00.559 wrestles a style that I think can keep him healthy, 432 00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:04.660 and he's a bigger wrestler. And part of me, this 433 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.339 is more of a side topic too, but I think 434 00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:10.980 WWE's going to be looking for bigger wrestlers who can 435 00:25:11.099 --> 00:25:15.509 work because they have a cruiserweight division now. And this 436 00:25:15.569 --> 00:25:17.589 is something Todd Martin and I got into yesterday on 437 00:25:17.609 --> 00:25:21.750 the VIP show, The Fix with Todd Martin. We're on 438 00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:23.809 a little bit different sides of this argument in terms 439 00:25:23.849 --> 00:25:26.970 of should... the future Daniel Bryans and AJ Styles and 440 00:25:27.009 --> 00:25:30.480 Finn Balor's go to the cruiserweight division, or should the 441 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.279 best of the cruiserweights still be put in the heavyweight division, 442 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.940 and then the guys who have

some deficiencies and aren't 443 00:25:37.099 --> 00:25:40.089 top star potential, should they be, quote, relegated to the 444 00:25:40.109 --> 00:25:43.329 cruiserweight division? And my argument is, look at Conor McGregor 445 00:25:44.089 --> 00:25:47.589 and decide we're going to make our lighter weight division... 446 00:25:47.980 --> 00:25:50.740 the Conor McGregor division at WWE. We're going to work 447 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:53.619 to make the cruiserweights not what they used to be, 448 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.319 not let it be defined differently. They've done this successfully 449 00:25:56.339 --> 00:25:59.359 with the women's division. They've defined it up. Charlotte is 450 00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:02.809 clearly the class of the women's division in a way 451 00:26:02.829 --> 00:26:05.930 that we haven't seen arguably since maybe Trish Stratus and 452 00:26:05.970 --> 00:26:08.869 maybe even supplanting her because it's less TNA-based and it 453 00:26:09.009 --> 00:26:12.470 feels like she's presenting herself with more class, more seriousness, 454 00:26:12.509 --> 00:26:15.029 more gravitas. I want to see that with two weight 455 00:26:15.049 --> 00:26:17.930 divisions on Raw. and maybe eventually on SmackDown too if 456 00:26:17.950 --> 00:26:21.269 they expand shows. I want to see the best cruiserweights 457 00:26:21.390 --> 00:26:23.990 all together wrestling each other in a division that's treated 458 00:26:24.190 --> 00:26:26.670 as an equal to the heavyweight where it's interchangeable which 459 00:26:27.009 --> 00:26:29.630 title is defended in the main event on a pay-per-view 460 00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:33.220 or headlines raw. That's what I think is the eventual goal. 461 00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:35.119 Now that falls apart if you don't do everything right. 462 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:38.400 But I hope that. So this is all a little sidebar, 463 00:26:38.420 --> 00:26:39.579 and I want to get your thoughts on that, Kevin. 464 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.869 Not if it's feasible because of Vince McMahon, but is 465 00:26:42.910 --> 00:26:47.210 it feasible– setting aside the realities of the biases and 466 00:26:47.269 --> 00:26:51.490 history of those involved. So making it more theoretical just 467 00:26:51.509 --> 00:26:54.250 to explore that aspect of it. But that said, I 468 00:26:54.289 --> 00:26:57.210 think they're going to have to be more diligent in 469 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:02.059 developing bigger or hiring and developing larger wrestlers who can work, 470 00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:05.400 who fans want to actually watch wrestle, not just stand 471 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.839 there and look good. And Drew McIntyre fits that really well. 472 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:12.019 And maybe Abyss does too. Somebody who's bigger and can, 473 00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:14.029 and can work a match that people want to see. 474 00:27:14.589 --> 00:27:18.109 and have a good match with John Cena, Roman Reigns. 475 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:20.329 I would say Seth Rollins is more heavyweight than cruiserweight 476 00:27:20.349 --> 00:27:23.509 for sure with his height and size. That's kind of 477 00:27:23.549 --> 00:27:26.349 where I lean. So I think Drew McIntyre especially becomes 478 00:27:26.390 --> 00:27:30.329 valuable to WWE if they start looking at the cruiserweight 479 00:27:30.349 --> 00:27:34.289 division as where some of the top wrestlers who otherwise 480 00:27:34.309 --> 00:27:36.670 would just be in the heavyweight mix are going to land. Kevin, 481 00:27:36.690 --> 00:27:38.470 that's a lot to chew on, but your thoughts on 482 00:27:38.690 --> 00:27:39.130 what I just said. 483 00:27:40.740 --> 00:27:42.859 That's an interesting take, and I actually hadn't thought of 484 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:44.660 it in those terms, but what you say makes a 485 00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:47.000 lot of sense. And, you know, I like the way 486 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:51.660 you laid it out as theoretical versus maybe realistic. You know, theoretically, 487 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:53.700 I agree with everything you said, and I think that 488 00:27:53.740 --> 00:27:56.880 would be a goal to have, like you said, with 489 00:27:56.900 --> 00:28:00.039 the women's division. It stands on its own, but now 490 00:28:00.099 --> 00:28:03.079 it's– it's not filler, you know, it's not a filler 491 00:28:03.099 --> 00:28:06.599 segment anymore. It can stand alongside of what the men do. 492 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.910 And that would be, you know, let's have a heavyweight 493 00:28:08.950 --> 00:28:11.490 division and a cruiserweight division. Not that one's better than 494 00:28:11.549 --> 00:28:15.089 the other, but they're just different. That's great in theory. 495 00:28:16.049 --> 00:28:19.750 I don't think that that, I just can't imagine that 496 00:28:19.789 --> 00:28:24.900 happening because Vince McMahon still has his biases of the smaller, 497 00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:27.900 you know, how he looks at the smaller sized wrestlers. 498 00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:31.740 And I think WWE can make strides But I don't 499 00:28:31.779 --> 00:28:34.500 know that he will ever. I mean, look, AJ Styles 500 00:28:34.539 --> 00:28:36.480 is certainly not a giant, and he's got the most 501 00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:39.220 important title in WWE right now. And from everything I've heard, 502 00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:43.960 Vince is a big fan of AJ's work. But, you know, 503 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:46.660 are we going to see TJ Perkins and Brian Kendrick 504 00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.029 ever headlining a pay-per-view? I don't know. I have a 505 00:28:50.069 --> 00:28:53.390 much harder time believing. You could get a smaller guy 506 00:28:53.430 --> 00:28:55.809 like AJ who can go and who can be a 507 00:28:55.849 --> 00:28:59.170 main event against other heavyweights. but whether or not you 508 00:28:59.190 --> 00:29:02.509 get a quote unquote, you know, cruiserweight main event on 509 00:29:02.549 -->

00:29:05.990 a pay-per-view, um, that I just, I, I can't imagine 510 00:29:06.029 --> 00:29:09.230 it happening, but who knows? Stranger things have happened, but 511 00:29:09.549 --> 00:29:12.269 I feel like as long as Vince is in charge and, 512 00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:15.400 and that'll be until the day he stops breathing. Um, 513 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:17.740 so that I, I, I find that, I find that 514 00:29:17.779 --> 00:29:20.240 hard to believe, but, uh, it gets back to what 515 00:29:20.259 --> 00:29:23.019 you said about comparing a business and Drew McIntyre, Drew 516 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:26.240 Galloway for a second. Um, I think Drew has... It's 517 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:29.269 because of his look and everything else. Not only can 518 00:29:29.289 --> 00:29:32.440 he work, the size, but he's got that look. He's 519 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:35.539 got such a great look. Abyss, I just see... like, 520 00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:39.019 they already have Luke Harper. They already have Eric Rowan. 521 00:29:39.380 --> 00:29:42.809 They already have Braun Strowman. I don't know that they 522 00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:45.869 would need a guy like Abyss, because he seems to 523 00:29:45.930 --> 00:29:49.069 be an older version, and maybe to your point as well, 524 00:29:49.289 --> 00:29:54.569 a more banged-up version of those guys that are already there. 525 00:29:55.150 --> 00:29:57.089 As far as him having friends in high places, which 526 00:29:57.109 --> 00:30:00.279 you mentioned... I know that Mick Foley was always an 527 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.839 Abyss fan, although I don't know how much... I think 528 00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:05.980 Mick is strictly a talent in WWE. I don't know 529 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.859 that he has anyone's ear at this point. Road Dogg 530 00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:13.339 Brian James spent some time at TNA and knows all 531 00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:15.500 the TNA guys. I don't know if he has any 532 00:30:15.539 --> 00:30:19.359 kind of relationship with Abyss or not, but he certainly 533 00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:22.660 knows all those TNA guys, and clearly Brian James, as 534 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:24.640 I'm sure most people know, is very good friends with 535 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.690 Hunter and has his ear. So... You know, that may 536 00:30:28.730 --> 00:30:30.640 or may not help a bit. I don't know. 537 00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:34.140 Great, great points. Great points. Going back to the cruiserweight, 538 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:36.960 I'll just insert that. I don't think that, well, I 539 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:40.279 shouldn't rule it out. TJ Perkins, as he now stands, 540 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.970 is not somebody that I foresee headlining a WWE pay-per-view 541 00:30:44.210 --> 00:30:48.470 above Kevin Owens or Roman Reigns or Seth Rollins. You know, 542 00:30:48.509 --> 00:30:52.970 that group. The goal is to find your Conor McGregor, 543 00:30:53.339 --> 00:30:54.660 the lighter weight wrestler. 544 00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:54.779 Right. 545 00:30:55.089 --> 00:30:58.569 Who you don't just automatically move to the heavyweight division 546 00:30:58.930 --> 00:31:02.750 because he's too over for the cruiserweight division. My argument 547 00:31:02.849 --> 00:31:06.549 is work towards– because to me, I don't think– and 548 00:31:06.650 --> 00:31:11.769 I think our life experience backs this up. Look at 549 00:31:11.789 --> 00:31:16.599 the NBA, for example. The most dynamic personalities that people 550 00:31:16.650 --> 00:31:20.119 follow aren't always 6'8, or 6'10, or 7 feet. A 551 00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.819 lot of times they're 6'1, 5'8, somewhere in that range. 552 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.299 They're the point guard's. or shooting guards in a lot 553 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:31.519 of cases. So there's not something about humanity that reduces 554 00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:34.579 the personality as you're shorter. It increases your personality and 555 00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:38.339 bombasticness as you get taller. And that's certainly been the 556 00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:41.319 case in UFC. In fact, some would argue it's been 557 00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:45.319 in the reverse. Going back to Tim Sylvia and, I mean, 558 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:47.960 I guess Andrej Lasky is all right. Randy Couture wasn't 559 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.690 exactly a bundle of soundbites. BJ Penn has been more 560 00:31:52.710 --> 00:31:55.390 of a personality and now Conor McGregor and so many 561 00:31:55.430 --> 00:31:59.369 others so my point is WWE ideally and that's why 562 00:31:59.410 --> 00:32:02.650 I have to predicate it by saying let's set aside 563 00:32:02.690 --> 00:32:06.160 the reality and the history and not limit what we 564 00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:10.059 are saying is the potential and lay that scenario out 565 00:32:10.099 --> 00:32:14.119 there as minus all the biases and minus all the 566 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.630 preconceptions is there a chance to do this at a 567 00:32:17.650 --> 00:32:21.529 high level and I would argue yes a Finn Balor-led 568 00:32:21.569 --> 00:32:25.410 cruiserweight division. Heck, an AJ Styles-led cruiserweight division. If Daniel 569 00:32:25.470 --> 00:32:29.319 Bryan were to get clearance because of some new medical 570 00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:32.240 testing that gave WWE confidence or a new treatment or whatever, 571 00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:37.079 I just say load up that cruiserweight division and have 572 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.890 kind of an internal competition within Raw. Have your top 573 00:32:40.910 --> 00:32:43.650 heavyweights trying to outdo on the mic and in terms 574 00:32:43.690 --> 00:32:46.819 of crowd reaction and earn that main event spot, and 575 00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:50.180 in terms of quarterly or minute-by-minute ratings, have the divisions 576 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:54.829 within Rob basically compete to try to earn through minute-by-minute 577 00:32:54.869 --> 00:32:57.250 ratings and

crowd response the main event spot on pay-per-views, 578 00:32:57.529 --> 00:33:01.390 but don't pluck the best cruiserweights out of the cruiserweight 579 00:33:01.410 --> 00:33:04.349 division and put them in size mismatches with the really 580 00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:07.630 tall heavyweights. Instead, have two healthy divisions. But, of course, 581 00:33:07.829 --> 00:33:10.509 I would say I'm with you, Kevin, because I don't 582 00:33:10.529 --> 00:33:11.890 know that you were advocating for a point, but you 583 00:33:11.910 --> 00:33:15.069 were observing the that you don't see Brian Kendrick and 584 00:33:15.170 --> 00:33:17.609 Perkins headlining. I'm with you on that. I mean, I 585 00:33:17.650 --> 00:33:20.390 think you need to have different guys on top of 586 00:33:20.410 --> 00:33:22.849 the cruiserweight division to realistically make the case that they 587 00:33:22.869 --> 00:33:27.180 should be headlining any pay-per-views. You know that last segment 588 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:29.240 you're just listening to and the next one that you're 589 00:33:29.259 --> 00:33:31.839 waiting to listen to? Those can be one second apart 590 00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.640 with a VIP membership. You can unlock our commercial-free versions 591 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:38.579 of our shows. PWTorch.com slash GoVIP tells you how to 592 00:33:38.619 --> 00:33:43.210 do it. That's PWTorch.com slash slash GoVIP. Options exist within 593 00:33:43.230 --> 00:33:46.910 the Apple Podcast app using your Apple account, through Patreon, 594 00:33:46.930 --> 00:33:48.740 which by the way, you can sync up with Spotify, 595 00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:51.599 or just about any iOS or Android app. With a 596 00:33:51.619 --> 00:33:54.819 full VIP membership, you can customize the feed for individual 597 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:58.980 shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go to pwtorch.com 598 00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.890 slash GoVIP for full details on all the options to 599 00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:05.769 listen commercial free. And with upper tier options, unlock our 600 00:34:05.869 --> 00:34:08.710 VIP exclusive podcasts that run throughout the week every week. 601 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:12.820 Well, some of the names that you mentioned, I think 602 00:34:13.090 --> 00:34:16.610 what you're talking about could work. Finn Bauer, obviously. You know, 603 00:34:16.650 --> 00:34:19.530 even Sammy Zane. I don't know what Sammy weighs. He's 604 00:34:19.550 --> 00:34:21.800 probably around that. I think he's around the 205 mark. 605 00:34:21.820 --> 00:34:24.900 He could be in the Cruiserweight division. Yes, those are 606 00:34:24.940 --> 00:34:26.780 guys you possibly could build around. 607 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:28.960 Austin Aries, for instance, I'd say. 608 00:34:30.739 --> 00:34:33.599 Austin Aries would be perfect. Absolutely. I'm a huge Austin 609 00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:36.260 Aries fan. He would be a perfect guy to. 610 00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:36.559 Do it with. 611 00:34:37.380 --> 00:34:39.340 But, you know, a couple of guys I just mentioned, 612 00:34:39.389 --> 00:34:42.989 Baylor and Zane. Baylor's already been a world champion in WWE. 613 00:34:43.469 --> 00:34:45.849 Zane has said that he will be. You know, that's 614 00:34:45.889 --> 00:34:48.289 his goal. He's going to be the WWE champion one day. 615 00:34:49.349 --> 00:34:51.409 Once those guys have been at that level, can they 616 00:34:51.449 --> 00:34:53.980 then go to the cruiserweight division? I don't know. That's 617 00:34:54.019 --> 00:34:55.780 something we'll have to see play out. It's still all 618 00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.949 very new. So we'll see where it goes. A great 619 00:34:59.989 --> 00:35:02.949 point that you made, though, about UFC. You could argue, 620 00:35:03.110 --> 00:35:05.869 and I'm not the biggest UFC or MMA fan, so 621 00:35:05.989 --> 00:35:09.570 I'm really a casual fan. But to my knowledge, aren't 622 00:35:09.650 --> 00:35:13.159 Conor McGregor and Ronda Rousey, you know, a lighter weight 623 00:35:13.380 --> 00:35:16.880 wrestler or competitor and a woman, aren't they the two 624 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:20.739 biggest pay-per-view draws in recent years in UFC? 625 00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:27.460 The only competition is Brock Lesnar for that. Brock Lesnar, right. Yep, absolutely. 626 00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:32.380 And now you would say Nate Diaz, too, is in 627 00:35:32.420 --> 00:35:34.699 that mix. But, of course, that hasn't been tested outside 628 00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.960 of Conor McGregor as an opponent, so we'll see. But 629 00:35:38.219 --> 00:35:41.139 he's a smaller fighter, too, relative to the heavyweights. 630 00:35:41.690 --> 00:35:43.969 So I think it proves, in the world of combat sports, 631 00:35:44.030 --> 00:35:47.260 and obviously wrestling is a little different entity. but that 632 00:35:47.380 --> 00:35:51.940 it's not necessarily men or giants that people pay their 633 00:35:51.980 --> 00:35:54.880 money to see fight. So that should be, you know, 634 00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:57.320 WWE could look at that as a model and say, Hey, 635 00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:59.219 why can't we do something? I think they've already looked 636 00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:00.880 at the Rousey model. I think that's one of the 637 00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:04.280 reasons why you've seen, uh, what's happened in the women's division. Now, 638 00:36:04.340 --> 00:36:06.300 maybe they'll look at Conor McGregor and get the same 639 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.190 idea in the cruiserweight division. It would be great if 640 00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:08.530 they did. 641 00:36:08.909 --> 00:36:11.469 I would love to see them look at Austin Aries as, 642 00:36:11.969 --> 00:36:15.000 cause I mean, there's some similarities with Austin and Conor, um, 643 00:36:15.650 --> 00:36:18.449 not the favorite guy to deal with for management, not 644 00:36:18.489 --> 00:36:20.349 always the most popular guy with his colleagues in the 645

00:36:20.389 --> 00:36:23.510 locker room. He's respected for his dedication to being great, 646 00:36:23.869 --> 00:36:26.309 but he's seen as a bit of a bombastic flake 647 00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:31.030 in certain circles, um, fair or unfair. Cause sometimes the 648 00:36:31.050 --> 00:36:33.309 people who management looked down upon are simply the men 649 00:36:33.349 --> 00:36:36.050 who are willing to stand up and not be subservient 650 00:36:36.449 --> 00:36:40.530 to the almighty bosses. Um, but Austin can be that guy. 651 00:36:40.550 --> 00:36:42.750 You just go, just go, you know, it's kind of 652 00:36:42.769 --> 00:36:45.219 like what they're doing on talking smack. Uh, Just go 653 00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:47.599 out there and make some news. Be bombastic. Don't swear. 654 00:36:48.460 --> 00:36:53.099 Don't be crude. Think that your mom is watching, but 655 00:36:53.219 --> 00:36:56.260 she knows you're a little bit off the rail, a 656 00:36:56.300 --> 00:36:59.469 little bit crazy. But don't go certain places, in other words. 657 00:36:59.789 --> 00:37:01.510 But we want you to push the envelope, and then 658 00:37:01.650 --> 00:37:03.889 we'll let you know afterwards did you go too far 659 00:37:03.909 --> 00:37:06.489 or not. But we'll find that happy spot. But we 660 00:37:06.530 --> 00:37:08.989 really want you to make us a little uncomfortable and 661 00:37:09.050 --> 00:37:11.719 watch that USC 205 press conference with Conor McGregor and 662 00:37:11.739 --> 00:37:14.769 Eddie Alvarez. And that's the type– if you show Vince 663 00:37:14.809 --> 00:37:18.369 McMahon that bombastic reaction to a guy who's basically Austin 664 00:37:18.389 --> 00:37:22.750 Aries height, maybe Conor's an inch or two taller, but 665 00:37:23.610 --> 00:37:25.670 very close. And you show that to Vince, and you 666 00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:27.860 see this New York– again, it's New York. Vince is 667 00:37:27.909 --> 00:37:29.949 a total mark for MSG in New York. He's got 668 00:37:29.989 --> 00:37:32.780 such history there. This is what's happening in 2016 in 669 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.860 New York City, and this is how tall this guy is. 670 00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:39.699 Let's bring Austin Aries up. Let's make this cruiserweight division something. Oh, 671 00:37:39.780 --> 00:37:42.340 and then let's hire Kyle O'Reilly as soon as we can. 672 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.420 Adam Cole as soon as we can. Let's get Kota 673 00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:48.090 Ibushi when available. No rush. Let's just make it when 674 00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:49.750 it works for him and it works for us. Let's 675 00:37:49.789 --> 00:37:54.829 bring him in. Let's build this division up with bombastic personalities, 676 00:37:55.269 --> 00:37:59.409 different wrestling styles, and really go all in. I really 677 00:37:59.429 --> 00:38:01.929 think there's a chance. And then it won't be, well, 678 00:38:01.949 --> 00:38:04.420 we don't want to sacrifice AJ Styles or Daniel Bryan 679 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:07.489 or Finn Balor. It won't be that. It'll be Finn Balor's, yes, 680 00:38:07.530 --> 00:38:09.849 he has a credibility of being the universal champ. Let's 681 00:38:09.909 --> 00:38:12.489 move him down a division, quote, where the money is. 682 00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:15.530 You know, like Finn Balor wants to go where the 683 00:38:15.630 --> 00:38:20.050 action is, the hot division. And a little side plug, MMATorch.com 684 00:38:20.289 --> 00:38:23.510 is our sister brand, our sister website to PWTorch.com. Just 685 00:38:23.570 --> 00:38:26.829 this morning, it's a fitting article, Matt Peterson, a columnist 686 00:38:26.889 --> 00:38:30.510 for MMATorch.com, put up one of our daily top five lists, 687 00:38:30.849 --> 00:38:33.260 and he wrote the top five fighters to switch weight 688 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:36.789 divisions and succeed. So if you want to read about 689 00:38:36.809 --> 00:38:39.250 the history, and it's not just moving up in divisions, 690 00:38:39.269 --> 00:38:42.989 sometimes it's moving down and having great success. There is 691 00:38:43.260 --> 00:38:46.139 precedent for this. And I point to, say, Finn Balor 692 00:38:46.179 --> 00:38:48.599 as an example. It's perfect to have Finn Balor be 693 00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:51.900 a heavyweight universal champion and have that credibility, even if 694 00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:55.559 he didn't defend the title. But having competed effectively among 695 00:38:55.659 --> 00:38:58.420 bigger guys to then go be the centerpiece or one 696 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:01.840 of the centerpieces of the cruiserweight division. Because it says 697 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:04.659 the cruiserweight division isn't the minor league for small guys 698 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:09.880 without personality who do a bunch of spots on the undercard. Instead, 699 00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:11.659 it's seen as a place to be, kind of like 700 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:13.280 Conor McGregor. So I don't want to belabor the point, 701 00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:18.590 but for decades, Kevin, we've seen little starts and stops 702 00:39:19.070 --> 00:39:22.469 and failures and attempts, some good faith, usually not, to 703 00:39:22.489 --> 00:39:24.670 push the cruiserweight division. And I think because of what's 704 00:39:24.690 --> 00:39:27.780 going on with UFC 205 in November and the press 705 00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:32.480 conference this week and Conor McGregor's popularity, and you astutely 706 00:39:32.500 --> 00:39:35.860 point out Ronda Rousey and the influence that she had 707 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:37.960 on what we have seen with the WWE women the 708 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:40.719 last year or so, I think there is more of 709 00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:44.030 an opportunity and more of an opening despite Vince McMahon, 710 00:39:44.050 --> 00:39:46.690 and even Triple H for that matter, kind of having 711 00:39:46.710 --> 00:39:49.110 a history of leaning towards bigger guys as draws.

There's 712 00:39:49.150 --> 00:39:52.010 more of an opening here to at least float that 713 00:39:52.070 --> 00:39:54.590 idea in a realistic way that maybe could be embraced 714 00:39:54.610 --> 00:39:58.969 within WWE to really go at this without that limited 715 00:39:59.090 --> 00:40:02.510 thinking that this is just a lower mid-card gimmick for 716 00:40:02.530 --> 00:40:04.389 the small guys who can't cut it as heavyweights. 717 00:40:06.730 --> 00:40:10.010 Yeah, I agree. I think the timing could be right. 718 00:40:11.050 --> 00:40:13.230 We're only a couple weeks into this with the cruiserweights 719 00:40:13.329 --> 00:40:15.929 on Raw. I will say that maybe it's not fair 720 00:40:15.969 --> 00:40:19.119 to judge since it is in its infancy. I haven't 721 00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:22.360 been overly impressed with the presentation. Again, it's only a 722 00:40:22.389 --> 00:40:27.690 couple weeks, and maybe there's certainly time to grow. I think, unfortunately, 723 00:40:27.730 --> 00:40:30.309 you heard the crowd the other night chanting for CM 724 00:40:30.349 --> 00:40:33.150 Punk and Randy Savage in the middle of the TJ 725 00:40:33.170 --> 00:40:33.860 Perkins match. 726 00:40:34.070 --> 00:40:35.980 Absolutely. 727 00:40:36.099 --> 00:40:38.880 The way they've been placed on the card so far, 728 00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:40.579 the way they got... Now, look, they've tried to do 729 00:40:40.619 --> 00:40:43.119 some highlights packages and let the guys talk a little bit. 730 00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:45.570 But really, you can't get a sense of who these 731 00:40:45.610 --> 00:40:48.690 characters really are. And look, again, it's early, and they're 732 00:40:48.969 --> 00:40:51.829 debuting a whole division all at once. It's not like 733 00:40:51.869 --> 00:40:55.030 trying to get one guy over. They're getting five, six, seven, 734 00:40:55.050 --> 00:40:59.500 eight guys all at once. The people who didn't watch 735 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.260 the Cruiserweight Classic have no idea who any of these 736 00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.300 people are, unless they're a fan of several years ago, 737 00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:10.760 back in the day. So there's certainly room to grow. 738 00:41:11.059 --> 00:41:15.050 As of right now, I haven't been impressed. It seems 739 00:41:15.090 --> 00:41:17.409 like they're just kind of, you know, I hate to 740 00:41:17.469 --> 00:41:19.630 say it, but it's almost like, oh, well, here's a 741 00:41:19.650 --> 00:41:22.090 spot fest. Here's the flippy guys. This is what the 742 00:41:22.369 --> 00:41:25.690 cruiserweight division is. Now, go guys, go have a great match. 743 00:41:25.849 --> 00:41:29.070 You know, I think we've got to see more character development. 744 00:41:29.090 --> 00:41:31.050 We've got to see storylines. We've got to see faces 745 00:41:31.090 --> 00:41:34.570 and heels. I'm not a big fan of where they 746 00:41:34.630 --> 00:41:38.889 ripped off Ring of Honor's coat of honor. I don't 747 00:41:38.909 --> 00:41:42.789 understand the handshakes. Again, I get that you want to 748 00:41:42.909 --> 00:41:46.010 differentiate the division and you want to make it unique. 749 00:41:46.469 --> 00:41:48.760 I like the purple robes and all that kind of stuff. 750 00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:51.500 That's great. But why are they shaking hands? We don't 751 00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:55.300 see the heavyweights do that. I don't think that's a 752 00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:58.500 positive change there. That's not unique in a positive sense. 753 00:41:58.659 --> 00:42:01.099 I really don't understand what that's trying to accomplish. 754 00:42:02.289 --> 00:42:09.510 I definitely believe that the crowd reaction is not the 755 00:42:10.010 --> 00:42:12.489 sole fault or the primary fault of the wrestlers in 756 00:42:12.510 --> 00:42:15.750 the ring, but the fact that they introduced the cruiserweight 757 00:42:15.789 --> 00:42:19.030 division and threw them out there. And like you say, 758 00:42:19.070 --> 00:42:23.429 you're introducing a whole division, but it's the framing of it. 759 00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:29.750 And there is a self-imposed... limitation. I don't think it's sabotage. 760 00:42:29.989 --> 00:42:31.809 I don't think it's a lack of belief in the division. 761 00:42:31.909 --> 00:42:37.010 I think it's a lack of truly understanding the scope, 762 00:42:37.909 --> 00:42:40.519 the fact that the cruiserweights need to be presented out 763 00:42:40.579 --> 00:42:42.599 of the gate. And it's not like it can't be fixed, 764 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:44.840 but in order to avoid crowd reactions like they got 765 00:42:44.860 --> 00:42:49.579 Monday night, you need to frame the division as being 766 00:42:49.739 --> 00:42:52.579 an equal to the heavyweight division. Fans are not, no 767 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:55.369 matter how exciting the action is, but especially if it's 768 00:42:55.449 --> 00:42:58.110 not just One high spot after another to keep them 769 00:42:58.230 --> 00:43:00.530 from getting bored. They have to be invested in the outcome. 770 00:43:00.769 --> 00:43:02.269 They have to, like you say, there has to be 771 00:43:02.309 --> 00:43:05.000 someone they haven't invested. They have an investment in cheering 772 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:06.679 for and rooting for. And there has to be somebody 773 00:43:06.699 --> 00:43:09.639 who they're given a reason to root against. And if 774 00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:11.880 that's not there and they don't believe that this match 775 00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:14.690 outcome matters, then they're not going to be invested in 776 00:43:14.750 --> 00:43:17.289 anything other than, wow, what a high spot. It's like 777 00:43:17.409 --> 00:43:18.610 an action movie without a plot. 778 00:43:18.789 --> 00:43:18.889 Right. 779 00:43:20.829 --> 00:43:22.909 Admit it, you love Nick Barbatti when he co-hosts with 780 00:43:22.949 --> 00:43:24.710 me on the Wade Keller Post Shows. Well, now you 781 00:43:24.730

--> 00:43:27.010 can listen to him every week on the Nicky's Club, 782 00:43:27.050 --> 00:43:30.119 a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more. 783 00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:32.679 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with 784 00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:34.780 the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's 785 00:43:34.820 --> 00:43:37.739 comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. 786 00:43:37.820 --> 00:43:40.750 From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. 787 00:43:40.889 --> 00:43:43.110 The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest 788 00:43:43.130 --> 00:43:43.710 club in town. 789 00:43:43.929 --> 00:43:45.710 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling 790 00:43:45.750 --> 00:43:50.050 life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com 791 00:43:50.349 --> 00:43:53.269 slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible 792 00:43:53.289 --> 00:43:56.590 with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other 793 00:43:56.739 --> 00:43:58.739 iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream 794 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.760 directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting 795 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:04.360 for you every week at PWTorch VIP. 796 00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:15.510 I don't think it was sabotage either. I just think 797 00:44:15.550 --> 00:44:17.889 it was, to your point, maybe a lack of understanding. 798 00:44:18.170 --> 00:44:21.610 To put the cruiserweight match on that late in the show, 799 00:44:21.630 --> 00:44:24.829 we all know these three-hour shows are marathons, not just 800 00:44:24.849 --> 00:44:26.789 for the audience watching at home, but for the audience 801 00:44:26.809 --> 00:44:29.789 there live. They've actually been there longer because they take 802 00:44:29.829 --> 00:44:33.230 superstars matches before that. You're there for a long time, 803 00:44:33.329 --> 00:44:36.150 and suddenly in the third hour, you see two guys 804 00:44:36.190 --> 00:44:39.050 in the ring that maybe you're not familiar with at all. 805 00:44:39.610 --> 00:44:41.730 No matter how great the action is, as you said, 806 00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:44.599 you're tired by that point. And if it's not somebody 807 00:44:44.619 --> 00:44:46.840 in the ring that you're invested in, you know, that's 808 00:44:46.900 --> 00:44:50.170 where you get the, you know, let's start doing chance 809 00:44:50.210 --> 00:44:53.659 just to amuse ourselves. So in hindsight, you know, hindsight's 2020, 810 00:44:53.650 --> 00:44:57.150 but hopefully going forward, powers that be maybe learned let's 811 00:44:57.190 --> 00:45:00.699 put the cruiserweights on since we're introducing a whole new division. 812 00:45:00.739 --> 00:45:03.739 We're introducing guys that if you don't watch the network 813 00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:05.579 and the cruiserweight classic, you don't know who they are. 814 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.820 Maybe let's put them on a little bit earlier in 815 00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:10.539 the show when the crowd's more enthusiastic and, than the 816 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.840 third hour when they're already tired and they just want 817 00:45:12.860 --> 00:45:14.699 to get to the main event. 818 00:45:15.170 --> 00:45:17.269 Absolutely. And then another approach is if you're going to 819 00:45:17.289 --> 00:45:19.130 put them on in that spot, and a lot of 820 00:45:19.150 --> 00:45:21.230 the formatting of Monday's show was probably in response to 821 00:45:21.250 --> 00:45:23.150 knowing 80 million plus people were going to be watching 822 00:45:23.230 --> 00:45:26.050 Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. And that might be why 823 00:45:26.090 --> 00:45:28.590 they got as much time as they did, fortunately or unfortunately. 824 00:45:29.389 --> 00:45:31.190 But also what you can do is actually do some 825 00:45:31.210 --> 00:45:34.599 backstage promos. And I think it's more important to present 826 00:45:34.619 --> 00:45:36.199 them in a certain way when you're trying to get 827 00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:40.329 newer guys over. I can watch... a fight night or 828 00:45:40.590 --> 00:45:44.989 fight prelims or the ultimate fighter for UFC or Bellator 829 00:45:45.010 --> 00:45:47.719 for that matter. And if the guys, if the announcers 830 00:45:48.050 --> 00:45:51.280 and the presentation and the personalities of the fighters and 831 00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:53.860 the announcers and everything frame it in a certain way, 832 00:45:53.980 --> 00:45:56.199 I can care about a fight not having heard of 833 00:45:56.219 --> 00:45:58.719 the two fighters ahead of time. But it has to 834 00:45:58.760 --> 00:46:00.800 feel real and it has to be in the context 835 00:46:01.019 --> 00:46:04.780 of a structure where wins and losses matter. And UFC 836 00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:07.429 and Bellator and MMA in general have this structure in place. 837 00:46:07.489 --> 00:46:10.429 A win matters a loss can get you cut a 838 00:46:10.469 --> 00:46:12.210 win can move you up to a higher level of 839 00:46:12.250 --> 00:46:14.820 competition and part of it is just booking discipline to 840 00:46:14.889 --> 00:46:16.900 make that a reality if they're going to go the 841 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.440 route kevin of handshakes and they're trying to present this 842 00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:22.480 differently and there's a different voice saying let's let's let's 843 00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:24.940 make this stand out one real good way to make 844 00:46:24.980 --> 00:46:26.920 it stand out also to get fans invested in the 845 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:29.820 matches and again it only works if it's in concert 846 00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:31.619 with six or eight other things on the checklist that 847 00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:34.969 they're doing well too But have a win matter, because 848 00:46:35.030 --> 00:46:37.110 if somebody wins, they face somebody higher up in the 849 00:46:37.150 --> 00:46:40.050

rankings the next week or the week after. If somebody loses, 850 00:46:40.409 --> 00:46:42.349 maybe you don't see them again, and they acknowledge that, 851 00:46:42.570 --> 00:46:44.889 or they have a match that sort of make or 852 00:46:44.909 --> 00:46:47.869 break for them the next week. And have this sense 853 00:46:48.110 --> 00:46:51.329 of the finish counts. The other thing is have, and 854 00:46:51.429 --> 00:46:53.230 I would apply this across the roster, but you can 855 00:46:53.289 --> 00:46:55.840 start with the cruiserweights because they seem to be more experimental, 856 00:46:56.489 --> 00:47:01.480 is have an unscripted, more real confrontation between the fighters 857 00:47:01.539 --> 00:47:04.699 backstage and as they're talking about their fight. Even have 858 00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:07.840 it set up as sort of a weigh-in situation where 859 00:47:08.099 --> 00:47:09.920 you've got to make sure that you're at 205 or under. 860 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:12.639 So do worked weigh-ins. I don't care if you really 861 00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:15.400 weigh them, but create a weigh-in situation so that you 862 00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:18.179 have an excuse for the two wrestlers to be on 863 00:47:18.219 --> 00:47:22.130 the set together with Renee Young or Tom Phillips, interviewing them, 864 00:47:22.210 --> 00:47:24.690 and have them go chest-to-chest. Give off that UFC vibe. 865 00:47:25.050 --> 00:47:30.579 Have a guy, maybe have one of the commissioners have 866 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:32.380 to step between them. I guess in this case it 867 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:35.500 would be Mick Foley. You know, step between them if 868 00:47:35.539 --> 00:47:39.030 they start getting a little too animated in the pre-fight 869 00:47:39.449 --> 00:47:42.050 and have fans kind of go, ooh, it's on, it's on, 870 00:47:42.090 --> 00:47:44.010 I want to see this fight. Build it up, get 871 00:47:44.050 --> 00:47:46.250 that anticipation going an hour before they actually step to 872 00:47:46.289 --> 00:47:49.429 the ring and take that approach. I mean, the cruiserweight 873 00:47:49.449 --> 00:47:51.739 division on Raw is a chance to experiment a little 874 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.739 bit using different methods than is typical for promoting the heavyweights. 875 00:47:56.610 --> 00:47:59.980 No question. And I love that idea of having the 876 00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:04.980 weigh-in and having something very UFC-ish where you can get 877 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:08.320 a rivalry sparked off of that, make it seem like 878 00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:11.449 a legitimate sports contest and go that route, or whether 879 00:48:11.469 --> 00:48:14.050 or not you want to script a storyline just like 880 00:48:14.090 --> 00:48:17.349 you would in the women's division or in the heavyweight division. 881 00:48:18.309 --> 00:48:19.969 There was a little story that they kind of touched 882 00:48:20.090 --> 00:48:22.880 on with Brian Kendrick and TJ Perkins having a real-life 883 00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:26.039 history of Kendrick sort of being a mentor to him. Well, 884 00:48:26.059 --> 00:48:27.599 that's great. I mean, that's the kind of stuff I 885 00:48:27.619 --> 00:48:29.780 could sink my teeth into as a fan. Let's explore 886 00:48:29.820 --> 00:48:32.699 that some more. You know, like I said, whether it's 887 00:48:32.739 --> 00:48:35.860 scripted or whether it's almost more athletic-based, like, you know, 888 00:48:35.900 --> 00:48:39.070 a confrontation at a weigh-in, whatever it is, there has 889 00:48:39.090 --> 00:48:41.789 to be a reason, you know, for this match. I 890 00:48:41.829 --> 00:48:45.110 have to be invested in it beyond just, okay, here's 891 00:48:45.150 --> 00:48:47.409 a match, and there's going to be a winner and 892 00:48:47.449 --> 00:48:49.710 a loser. And there has to be more for me 893 00:48:49.730 --> 00:48:52.550 to sink my teeth into as a viewer. And that's 894 00:48:52.590 --> 00:48:57.980 across the board. And look, any sporting event, whether it's baseball, football, 895 00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:02.420 whatever it is, the TV presentation, they're always constantly trying 896 00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:06.889 to look for storylines. The great thing about wrestling is 897 00:49:07.030 --> 00:49:10.590 it's not legitimate competition, and we can script storylines. But 898 00:49:10.610 --> 00:49:13.090 you see that not only in UFC, but like I said, 899 00:49:13.110 --> 00:49:17.909 in legitimate sports. What's the storyline? Josh Norman and Odell 900 00:49:17.929 --> 00:49:20.440 Beckham are facing each other again. uh they had that 901 00:49:20.460 --> 00:49:22.539 whole scrum last year now they're back on the field 902 00:49:23.099 --> 00:49:25.500 uh you know whatever it is whether it's a something 903 00:49:25.539 --> 00:49:27.940 off the field or what there's you know a rivalry 904 00:49:27.980 --> 00:49:29.639 between the two teams that are trying to be played 905 00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:31.980 up that's it's entertainment at the end of the day 906 00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:34.949 and and it has to be more yes it's it's 907 00:49:35.070 --> 00:49:37.150 a I can watch an NFL game on Sunday and 908 00:49:37.210 --> 00:49:39.510 enjoy it just because it's two NFL teams playing. But, man, 909 00:49:39.550 --> 00:49:42.510 if there's a rivalry there or a storyline that happened 910 00:49:42.530 --> 00:49:45.429 during the week or tweets were going back and forth between, 911 00:49:45.449 --> 00:49:48.309 you know, trash talking, whatever, that's what makes you even 912 00:49:48.429 --> 00:49:50.530 more invested in it. And, yeah, that's what they have 913 00:49:50.550 --> 00:49:53.610 to do in WWE with cruiserweights, with women, with everybody. 914 00:49:54.449 --> 00:49:56.289 Totally agree. My guest is Kevin Eck. If you're joining 915 00:49:56.329 --> 00:50:00.389 Interview Thursday In Progress, ex-Creative Team member with WWE from 916 00:50:00.389 --> 00:50:02.360 2011 to

2014. Right, Kevin? Those are the right dates? 917 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.940 That is correct. Did the caller also ask about EC3? 918 00:50:08.300 --> 00:50:09.909 Yes, and I'm going to get into that after my 919 00:50:09.949 --> 00:50:11.849 bottom of the hour break that I'm 15 minutes late for. 920 00:50:11.929 --> 00:50:14.090 So we're going to hit a few other TNA names 921 00:50:14.570 --> 00:50:18.789 and come back right after this with more with Kevin Eck. 922 00:50:18.809 --> 00:50:23.050 Just Google Kevin Eck Wrestling Blog and it'll pop up. 923 00:50:23.110 --> 00:50:25.480 You don't need to know the long URL. He's got 924 00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:28.619 really good columns. He's one of the good writers on 925 00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:31.659 wrestling out there. A lot of experience to draw from, 926 00:50:31.699 --> 00:50:34.320 following things closely and As he has noted, Ben, a 927 00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.219 number of places that give him some really good perspective 928 00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:39.900 and insight. So check that out. Kevin Eck blog, Kevin 929 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:42.119 Eck Wrestling Blog. Google that. It'll pop up. All right, 930 00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:44.400 here we go. Some notes. We talked a lot about USC. 931 00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:51.260 Here's some details on our sister brand, MMATorch.com. Smackdown, Clash 932 00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:54.760 of Champions, and the latest on the roster split. Kevin 933 00:50:54.780 --> 00:50:57.860 Eck is my guest here on Interview Thursday. And as 934 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:01.000 he astutely pointed out, we're still working through. Romeo from 935 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:05.380 New York's first questions on talent in TNA that could 936 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:10.829 possibly be hired by WWE. Up next, he asked about EC3, 937 00:51:10.949 --> 00:51:15.829 Ethan Carter III. He's got a history in WWE developmental. 938 00:51:16.269 --> 00:51:18.949 He's done a lot since then in TNA. I've been 939 00:51:18.969 --> 00:51:20.969 thoroughly impressed with him, both as a heel and as 940 00:51:21.030 --> 00:51:23.269 a babyface. I like his presence. I think it's a 941 00:51:23.269 --> 00:51:27.320 top 10%. presence in terms of giving off a vibe 942 00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:29.469 of somebody that you want to pay attention to when 943 00:51:29.510 --> 00:51:31.289 he walks to the ring and when he talks and 944 00:51:31.309 --> 00:51:33.510 when he wrestles. I think he's really done a lot 945 00:51:33.530 --> 00:51:38.829 to improve his stock and show maturity as a character 946 00:51:39.949 --> 00:51:42.900 on air in what he's done in TNA. Kevin, what 947 00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:45.119 was the rep on him and where do you think 948 00:51:45.139 --> 00:51:48.559 he would land in the three options that Romeo threw out? 949 00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:52.010 Main roster, NXT, or doesn't make the cut? 950 00:51:54.139 --> 00:51:57.440 Well, see, I think EC3, when he was Derek Bateman 951 00:51:57.659 --> 00:52:01.699 in WWE, I think he just got typecast. I think 952 00:52:01.889 --> 00:52:06.230 he was looked at as a comedy guy. And certainly 953 00:52:06.289 --> 00:52:09.829 he embraced that character and ran with it. And right 954 00:52:09.849 --> 00:52:12.010 from the very beginning when he was in NXT, I 955 00:52:12.030 --> 00:52:15.769 think Daniel Bryan was his pro. They did some funny stuff. 956 00:52:17.739 --> 00:52:20.030 Do you remember the awful commercial that Vince McMahon did? 957 00:52:20.650 --> 00:52:24.409 did with Bateman doing like a cologne. 958 00:52:23.989 --> 00:52:25.329 For Mark Henry. Yeah. 959 00:52:26.250 --> 00:52:29.530 I mean, just awful stuff. And Bateman knew it was 960 00:52:29.610 --> 00:52:32.739 horrible as well. But that's what they saw him as. And, 961 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:35.079 you know, there were times when I worked there when 962 00:52:35.099 --> 00:52:37.860 we would have ideas for him. He was, I guess, 963 00:52:37.900 --> 00:52:41.280 a Derek Bateman at the time. And I'll remember one 964 00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:46.730 prominent person there. basically said, Hey, we've already got Santino Morella. 965 00:52:46.809 --> 00:52:48.750 We've already got a funny guy. We don't need another one. 966 00:52:49.730 --> 00:52:51.630 And that was the rap on him was, Hey, so 967 00:52:51.670 --> 00:52:54.929 we've got somebody to fill that niche. It's Santino's box 968 00:52:54.969 --> 00:52:59.139 before Santino got hurt. And, and Bateman is just, you know, 969 00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:01.300 kind of a low rent Santino Morella. So we don't 970 00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:04.400 really need him. And it was certainly no surprise to 971 00:53:04.460 --> 00:53:06.639 anyone on the creative team when a round of cuts 972 00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:09.750 came around and Bateman was on the list. I thought 973 00:53:09.769 --> 00:53:12.610 it was unfair because, you know, I thought there was 974 00:53:12.630 --> 00:53:15.489 a lot of untapped talent there. But, again, if that 975 00:53:15.530 --> 00:53:18.570 was the feeling, that this is all he's capable of, and, 976 00:53:19.050 --> 00:53:21.380 you know, look, I'll be honest. I was a fan 977 00:53:21.409 --> 00:53:24.019 of the guy as Derek Bateman, and I consider him 978 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:28.079 a friend. But I didn't really see EC3 in him either. 979 00:53:28.420 --> 00:53:32.179 And I've been really, really pleasantly surprised by the work 980 00:53:32.219 --> 00:53:34.760 he's done as a lead heel, to your point, and 981 00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:39.739 a lead babyface in TNA. I have a feeling... that 982 00:53:39.820 --> 00:53:42.760 the people in WWE now who maybe had a preconceived 983 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.300 notion of him may be looking at him in an 984 00:53:45.380 --> 00:53:48.440 entirely new light. He went out. He was given an 985 00:53:48.500 --> 00:53:52.389 opportunity to reinvent himself. He did it. And, of course, 986 00:53:52.449 --> 00:53:54.409

it's subjective, but I think he hit a home run 987 00:53:54.449 --> 00:53:58.269 with it. Like we said, babyface, heel. He's done great work. 988 00:53:58.349 --> 00:54:00.889 He's good in the ring. He's got presence. He's got 989 00:54:00.909 --> 00:54:04.750 a great look. He's good on the mic. He shows personality. 990 00:54:04.769 --> 00:54:06.780 He can still do the comedy from time to time. 991 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:09.059 He'll throw out a funny one-liner. but he can also 992 00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:12.739 be serious. I would think that there would be, and 993 00:54:12.860 --> 00:54:14.840 this is just a hunch, I don't know anything, but 994 00:54:15.460 --> 00:54:17.420 if he were to become available for WWE again, I 995 00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:19.559 would think he is a guy that could come back 996 00:54:19.659 --> 00:54:23.179 and be on the main roster. NXT, I would think definitely, 997 00:54:23.579 --> 00:54:25.820 but I would even think he could go right to 998 00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:26.519 the main roster. 999 00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:30.260 I totally agree. And I know that there are people 1000 00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:33.050 in WWE who are fans of his and who would 1001 00:54:33.090 --> 00:54:36.369 have some influence. So I think he's as sure of 1002 00:54:36.429 --> 00:54:39.929 a thing as there is in TNA as somebody who, 1003 00:54:40.090 --> 00:54:42.289 whether TNA survives or not, has the option to land 1004 00:54:42.329 --> 00:54:46.630 in WWE one way or the other. Um, but I mean, 1005 00:54:47.130 --> 00:54:49.829 he's also somebody who, I mean, is, is, has a 1006 00:54:49.849 --> 00:54:53.170 reputation for being very much a team player in TNA. 1007 00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:56.940 Like he wants TNA to succeed. Um, and he's one 1008 00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:59.980 of those guys who is, um, I mean, he was 1009 00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:02.059 on this show, um, earlier, I think it was earlier 1010 00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:06.000 this year. Um, and he, his passion for, for the 1011 00:55:06.039 --> 00:55:08.420 brand really came across in that interview. So, um, I am. 1012 00:55:08.739 --> 00:55:11.579 I'm curious what the future holds for him, no matter 1013 00:55:11.599 --> 00:55:14.969 what happens with TNA. But he has shown, like you said, 1014 00:55:14.989 --> 00:55:20.230 that he's more than a Santino-type guy. Before pushing play 1015 00:55:20.269 --> 00:55:23.530 on the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Post Shows, check out PWTorch.com 1016 00:55:23.610 --> 00:55:26.449 and our TV review section and skim through a full 1017 00:55:26.489 --> 00:55:28.460 rundown of the TV show. If you didn't see it, 1018 00:55:28.489 --> 00:55:30.809 that's your way to get an overview of what happened 1019 00:55:30.829 --> 00:55:34.409 before you dive into our in-depth analysis of the key 1020 00:55:34.449 --> 00:55:38.190 happenings on the show. That's PWTorch.com, your home for live 1021 00:55:38.409 --> 00:55:41.869 TV coverage every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday with my TV reports. 1022 00:55:41.929 --> 00:55:43.869 And also check out our NXT and Impact coverage on 1023 00:55:43.909 --> 00:55:46.780 Tuesdays and Thursdays, our Collision reports on Saturday nights, and 1024 00:55:46.820 --> 00:55:49.659 of course our live pay-per-view and PLE coverage on weekends. 1025 00:55:49.860 --> 00:55:57.280 All waiting for you at PWTorch.com. Gail Kim, I kind 1026 00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:01.039 of get the feeling she probably had her run in WWE, 1027 00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:03.639 didn't go particularly well, and that if TNA goes under, 1028 00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:06.170 that might be the end of her her wrestling career, 1029 00:56:06.409 --> 00:56:11.030 or she would do appearances and stay independent and not 1030 00:56:11.090 --> 00:56:14.139 go back to the WWE grind, but maybe the way 1031 00:56:14.179 --> 00:56:18.519 the women's division is being positioned differently now than when 1032 00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:22.019 she was there, maybe that would change things, because even 1033 00:56:22.579 --> 00:56:25.199 with some mileage on her as a worker, she still 1034 00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:27.590 has a lot to give, and she's got credibility, and 1035 00:56:27.949 --> 00:56:31.750 with two women's divisions on two shows, maybe that changes 1036 00:56:31.769 --> 00:56:34.010 the equation compared to the last time she was there, too. Kevin, 1037 00:56:34.170 --> 00:56:36.670 provide some insight into into Gail Kim and some speculation 1038 00:56:36.710 --> 00:56:37.309 on where she'd land. 1039 00:56:38.909 --> 00:56:40.420 Well, I think you hit the nail on the head 1040 00:56:40.500 --> 00:56:44.519 as far as how the women's division has changed since 1041 00:56:44.579 --> 00:56:47.260 Gail Kim was last in WWE. I mean, it's no 1042 00:56:47.320 --> 00:56:50.599 secret that her last run, you know, was a disaster. 1043 00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:54.519 And the vibe I got when I was in WWE, 1044 00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:56.920 when Gail Kim's name came up was just that, you know, 1045 00:56:57.079 --> 00:56:59.730 she didn't have, you know, you gotta remember this was 1046 00:56:59.769 --> 00:57:03.849 still the divas era and there was a certain expectation that, 1047 00:57:04.610 --> 00:57:08.449 of a look and everything else. And certainly Gail Kim 1048 00:57:08.469 --> 00:57:12.519 is an attractive woman. But in WWE's world, you know, 1049 00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:17.179 was she attractive enough, as crazy as that sounds? I 1050 00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:19.679 think that was sort of, you know, nobody questioned how 1051 00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:22.760 good she was in the ring. It was, is she, 1052 00:57:23.099 --> 00:57:26.239 but she was obviously seen as less than, say, a 1053 00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:29.360 Kelly Kelly, right? Because Kelly Kelly has the look that 1054 00:57:29.420 --> 00:57:32.610 we want, and she's the star that we're going to promote. no, 1055 00:57:32.659 --> 00:57:35.000 she's nowhere near as

good as Gail Kim in the ring, but, oh, 1056 00:57:35.019 --> 00:57:36.480 we just love the way she looks. That was kind 1057 00:57:36.500 --> 00:57:38.579 of the philosophy at that time, and I think Gail, 1058 00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:41.039 you know, couldn't have gotten out of there. You know, 1059 00:57:41.059 --> 00:57:43.139 I think it was a horrible time for her, and 1060 00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:44.599 she was so happy to go back to a place 1061 00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.579 where she could do what she wants to do, which 1062 00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:51.880 is wrestle in TNA. Now, that being said, the change 1063 00:57:51.980 --> 00:57:56.159 in philosophy in the women's division, I could certainly envision 1064 00:57:56.179 --> 00:57:59.400 a scenario where Gail, because things have done such a 1065 00:57:59.460 --> 00:58:03.719 complete reversal in where the emphasis now is actually on 1066 00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:06.659 her strengths, getting in the ring and wrestling and having 1067 00:58:06.679 --> 00:58:10.059 great matches. I could see that happening with her coming back. 1068 00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:13.079 I could see it in NXT, you know, with the 1069 00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:15.800 competition there that she could, you know, Asuka would be 1070 00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:18.909 incredible or, you know, on the main roster, whether it's 1071 00:58:18.929 --> 00:58:21.869 Raw or SmackDown, going for, you know, facing Becky Lynch 1072 00:58:21.929 --> 00:58:24.889 or Charlotte or Sasha Banks or Bayley, all these fresh 1073 00:58:24.969 --> 00:58:27.289 matchups that you could have with Gail Kim. And I 1074 00:58:27.349 --> 00:58:30.340 think you could bring her in, almost, you know, kind 1075 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.760 of the role that Samoa Joe was brought in, which was, 1076 00:58:33.340 --> 00:58:37.360 you know, to give the brand some credibility and, you know, 1077 00:58:37.820 --> 00:58:39.909 have great matches with anyone and maybe at the end 1078 00:58:39.929 --> 00:58:43.130 of the day put over the younger talent. But I 1079 00:58:43.170 --> 00:58:46.309 could see it happening now, whereas, you know, a year 1080 00:58:46.349 --> 00:58:48.389 ago I would have said, you know, I think she 1081 00:58:48.429 --> 00:58:51.230 had such a horrible experience. She had two different runs. 1082 00:58:51.269 --> 00:58:53.760 Her second one was obviously, I think, a lot more 1083 00:58:53.800 --> 00:58:57.420 frustrating for her. I would say she would never come back. 1084 00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:00.590 But now... I could absolutely see that as whether she'd 1085 00:59:00.610 --> 00:59:02.530 have any interest in it at this stage in her life. 1086 00:59:02.889 --> 00:59:06.250 She's married now. She's older. I don't know. But I 1087 00:59:06.630 --> 00:59:08.849 think there might be interest in WWE then if she 1088 00:59:08.869 --> 00:59:09.230 was available. 1089 00:59:10.070 --> 00:59:12.159 We got a tweet from somebody listening to the show 1090

00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:14.360 now who says, what I love about EC3, going back 1091 00:59:14.380 --> 00:59:16.280 to him for a moment, is that he came to 1092 00:59:16.340 --> 00:59:21.559 TNA and made his own identity without acknowledging WWE. Sandow 1093 00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:24.119 should take that approach. I don't know how much you've 1094 00:59:24.139 --> 00:59:27.079 watched of Damian Sandow and TNA, if all of it 1095 00:59:27.099 --> 00:59:29.340 or just some of it, but what is your What's 1096 00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:32.059 your take on Aaron Rex and the way that he's 1097 00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:37.099 approached his post-WWE era compared to what EC3 has done? 1098 00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:40.389 Well, I think it's night and day, and I think 1099 00:59:40.659 --> 00:59:44.050 that tweet basically summed up my feelings as well. Look, 1100 00:59:44.090 --> 00:59:46.909 we didn't get Derek Bateman. We didn't get any variation 1101 00:59:46.949 --> 00:59:52.769 of Derek Bateman in TNA. We got a completely new character. And, look, 1102 00:59:52.809 --> 00:59:56.340 he could do that because, I mean, look, unless you 1103 00:59:56.380 --> 00:59:59.469 watch the old NXT... You might not have even, you know, 1104 00:59:59.550 --> 01:00:01.150 if you only watched Raw and SmackDown, you might not 1105 01:00:01.190 --> 01:00:02.929 have even known who he was, let's be honest. He 1106 01:00:02.949 --> 01:00:05.989 wasn't on the main shows that often. So there was 1107 01:00:06.010 --> 01:00:09.880 an opportunity there to completely reinvent himself as Dixie Carter's 1108 01:00:10.300 --> 01:00:13.780 spoiled nephew and have him do something completely different where 1109 01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:15.980 he didn't have to mention, I used to be in 1110 01:00:16.179 --> 01:00:17.960 WWE and they buried me and now I've got a 1111 01:00:17.980 --> 01:00:22.639 chip on my shoulder. My take on Aaron Rex, Damian Sandow, 1112 01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.070 when I worked at WWE, there were some people who 1113 01:00:25.110 --> 01:00:28.260 were really, really behind him on the writing team who 1114 01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:31.099 thought he had main event potential. And that's why he 1115 01:00:31.179 --> 01:00:33.119 ended up getting the money in the bank briefcase. At 1116 01:00:33.179 --> 01:00:37.119 one point, I was always in the camp of, um, 1117 01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:40.289 I thought he was very entertaining as the Sandow character, 1118 01:00:40.849 --> 01:00:43.349 but I said straight out, I don't think, you know, 1119 01:00:43.389 --> 01:00:46.650 not everyone can be the world champion. And I never 1120 01:00:46.750 --> 01:00:50.340 saw the Damien Sandow character as a guy who could 1121 01:00:50.360 --> 01:00:53.719 be a world champion main event in pay-per-views. I just, 1122 01:00:53.820 --> 01:00:55.840 I never saw that out of that character. And that's 1123 01:00:55.860 --> 01:00:58.219 why I was, completely against him getting the money in 1124 01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:00.400 the bank briefcase. At the time, I was pitching hard 1125 01:01:00.460 --> 01:01:02.619 for Wade Barrett to get it. And it really came 1126 01:01:02.659 --> 01:01:05.039 down to the two of them, and Vince made the 1127 01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:06.400 call to go with Sandow. 1128 01:01:06.820 --> 01:01:07.099 Wow. 1129 01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:10.460 I think he had buyer's remorse not long after that. 1130 01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:13.760 And I'm not saying he regretted, oh, we should have 1131 01:01:13.780 --> 01:01:15.929 given it to Wade, but I think he did regret 1132 01:01:16.190 --> 01:01:19.469 giving it to Sandow. So that's why you saw that 1133 01:01:19.489 --> 01:01:23.099 play out the way it did. Now, the Aaron Rex character, again, I... 1134 01:01:24.340 --> 01:01:27.079 I think what made him so entertaining as Damian Sandow 1135 01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:29.369 has kind of been, now it's been stripped away. Now 1136 01:01:29.429 --> 01:01:31.469 he's Aaron Rex. He's not doing some of the things 1137 01:01:31.489 --> 01:01:34.050 that make Sandow so entertaining. Now he's trying to be 1138 01:01:34.090 --> 01:01:36.730 this ass kicking baby face. And again, maybe it's just me. 1139 01:01:37.570 --> 01:01:41.820 I don't see him in that light. I just don't 1140 01:01:41.909 --> 01:01:43.059 see him as that kind of guy. 1141 01:01:43.079 --> 01:01:48.659 I don't either. I don't think it's working. I think 1142 01:01:48.699 --> 01:01:51.380 that he, you're right, he's trying to present himself having 1143 01:01:51.420 --> 01:01:54.030 more of an edge and And if you had never 1144 01:01:54.070 --> 01:01:56.510 seen Damien Sandow before, and let's say he was part 1145 01:01:56.530 --> 01:01:59.150 of Bullet Club in New Japan, and he had that 1146 01:01:59.349 --> 01:02:04.289 IWC cool factor of coming from that, I don't think 1147 01:02:04.309 --> 01:02:06.989 I'd judge it any different. I think there's something about 1148 01:02:07.030 --> 01:02:12.869 him that isn't quite clicking. And for an ass-kicking babyface, 1149 01:02:12.909 --> 01:02:16.389 there's just a little bit of a... If there can 1150 01:02:16.409 --> 01:02:18.329 be such a thing as kind of a whiny smugness 1151 01:02:18.369 --> 01:02:20.909 to his debut, that. 1152 01:02:22.699 --> 01:02:25.780 Went against what I think people liked about him and 1153 01:02:25.820 --> 01:02:28.019 thought they liked about him when he was Damian Sandow. 1154 01:02:28.780 --> 01:02:32.050 And I think he went too far the other direction, 1155 01:02:32.269 --> 01:02:36.469 or as we talked about with Derek Bateman becoming EC3, 1156 01:02:37.010 --> 01:02:39.969 when you took away the comedy, there was something more 1157 01:02:40.050 --> 01:02:44.000 there with EC3 that was deserving of a main event role. 1158 01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:47.280 And when you take away the Damian Sandow character and 1159 01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:49.340 you are left with Aaron Rex, I think it's more

1160 01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:52.760 of an empty feeling. than when Derek Bateman's personality was 1161 01:02:52.780 --> 01:02:55.179 stripped away. And part of it is I just think 1162 01:02:55.219 --> 01:02:57.019 so many people just groan when somebody shows up in 1163 01:02:57.059 --> 01:03:01.119 TNA and gives the speech about what they weren't allowed 1164 01:03:01.159 --> 01:03:03.000 to do or what they wish they could have done 1165 01:03:03.039 --> 01:03:06.199 or what management made them do in WWE. I mean, 1166 01:03:06.639 --> 01:03:08.820 D'Lo Brown did it, and it sucked in TNA when 1167 01:03:08.860 --> 01:03:11.190 he debuted. So many guys do it. I just don't 1168 01:03:11.230 --> 01:03:14.750 think that's the route. But ultimately, it's what he's done 1169 01:03:14.789 --> 01:03:17.190 since that first speech. And I don't say that I can. 1170 01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:22.530 You know, eat alphabet soup and, and, uh, poop out 1171 01:03:22.550 --> 01:03:25.510 better insults than you just gave me is, is exactly, um, 1172 01:03:25.889 --> 01:03:28.070 the type of, of wit that I'm looking for from 1173 01:03:28.110 --> 01:03:29.969 either a heel or a baby face. I just think 1174 01:03:29.989 --> 01:03:33.230 it's kind of tawdry and, and not as witty as he, 1175 01:03:33.409 --> 01:03:35.469 as his tone suggests that he thought it was. And 1176 01:03:35.489 --> 01:03:37.110 I just think there's some bad, there's been some bad 1177 01:03:37.130 --> 01:03:38.820 promos and so far with him too. 1178 01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:39.050 So. 1179 01:03:41.179 --> 01:03:44.630 Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts? Well, 1180 01:03:44.690 --> 01:03:47.570 come join me, Alan Forel, over in the Pro Wrestling 1181 01:03:47.610 --> 01:03:51.570 Paradise at PWTorch VIP as we bask on the bright 1182 01:03:51.630 --> 01:03:54.239 side of wrestling and focus on some of the great 1183 01:03:54.300 --> 01:03:59.099 matches and shows from around the world, be it the US, Japan, Europe, 1184 01:03:59.260 --> 01:04:02.440 or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestling's past in 1185 01:04:02.460 --> 01:04:05.599 the Paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows such 1186 01:04:05.639 --> 01:04:09.050 as the We Love Liger series, celebrating the glorious career 1187 01:04:09.340 --> 01:04:12.610 of Jushin Thunder Liger. and our I Was There When shows, 1188 01:04:12.650 --> 01:04:14.570 where our guests will join me to talk about a 1189 01:04:14.650 --> 01:04:18.369 classic bout that they were in attendance for. We love variety, 1190 01:04:18.650 --> 01:04:20.639 and you can expect lots of it at the Pro 1191 01:04:20.659 --> 01:04:25.659 Wrestling Paradise. Detailed PWTorch VIP subscription information and a list 1192 01:04:25.699 --> 01:04:31.469 of all the VIP benefits is available at pwtorchvipinfo.com. And yes, 1193 01:04:31.820 --> 01:04:35.690 all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on 1194 01:04:35.849 --> 01:04:39.280 iPhone and Android devices. Or you can stream them directly 1195 01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:43.239 from our ad-free VIP mobile site. See you in the paradise. 1196 01:04:47.420 --> 01:04:50.639 Yeah, I think your instincts, whether it was... Well, this 1197 01:04:50.659 --> 01:04:51.949 is what I want to ask. Were your instincts about 1198 01:04:51.969 --> 01:04:55.010 the Damien Sandow character not being made event, did that 1199 01:04:55.389 --> 01:04:58.769 also go to the person playing the role underneath that? 1200 01:04:59.409 --> 01:05:01.250 Did you think that he had it in him, minus 1201 01:05:01.269 --> 01:05:04.250 the Damien Sandow character, to rise higher if some of 1202 01:05:04.269 --> 01:05:07.269 the characteristics of Damien Sandow were augmented or taken away? 1203 01:05:09.210 --> 01:05:14.389 I honestly didn't see it. And that's nothing against him. And, 1204 01:05:14.409 --> 01:05:15.719 you know, he's a great guy. I don't know if 1205 01:05:15.739 --> 01:05:17.980 you've ever met him. Aaron, he's an awesome guy. He 1206 01:05:18.519 --> 01:05:22.239 works hard. He wants to succeed. It was just as 1207 01:05:22.519 --> 01:05:25.420 a talent, I didn't see that in him. And there 1208 01:05:25.460 --> 01:05:28.510 were times, look, he was a guy who was constantly, 1209 01:05:28.530 --> 01:05:30.630 he wanted to, like I said, he wanted to succeed. 1210 01:05:30.670 --> 01:05:32.110 He wanted to get to the top of the card. 1211 01:05:32.449 --> 01:05:33.710 And he was willing to do anything to do it. 1212 01:05:34.329 --> 01:05:37.030 And he wanted, at times, he pitched to the writers 1213 01:05:37.130 --> 01:05:39.480 to make him more aggressive. He wanted to be... He 1214 01:05:39.539 --> 01:05:41.940 actually said this. He wanted to be a Bruiser Brody 1215 01:05:42.380 --> 01:05:46.159 almost type character. He had... You know, when he went 1216 01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:48.590 through the losing streak and was doing the gimmicks of 1217 01:05:48.630 --> 01:05:51.090 imitating other wrestlers and stuff, he came up with an 1218 01:05:51.150 --> 01:05:53.170 idea of, you know, he was losing his mind and 1219 01:05:53.190 --> 01:05:56.550 he wanted to almost, like, be crazy and be this maniacal, 1220 01:05:56.690 --> 01:06:01.139 crazy wrestler, but taken seriously. And, you know, it wasn't 1221 01:06:01.179 --> 01:06:03.980 just me that didn't really see that in him, but 1222 01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:05.820 I know that Vince didn't either, and that's why those 1223 01:06:05.860 --> 01:06:09.119 things never happen. Now, maybe... you know, if he gets 1224 01:06:09.139 --> 01:06:12.199 that opportunity in TNA, maybe we'll all be proven wrong. 1225 01:06:12.619 --> 01:06:14.920 Sort of the way EC3 maybe proved some people wrong. 1226 01:06:15.639 --> 01:06:17.800 I just never saw that in him. I thought he 1227 01:06:17.860 --> 01:06:21.230 mastered the Damien standout character. He was very good at it. 1228 01:06:21.909 -->

01:06:23.889 And look, it's easy for me to say, I guess, 1229 01:06:23.909 --> 01:06:26.530 sitting back as a writer or as a fan, you know, 1230 01:06:26.570 --> 01:06:28.750 be happy with the spot you're in because it's a 1231 01:06:28.769 --> 01:06:30.349 good spot. You can be in that spot for a 1232 01:06:30.349 --> 01:06:31.969 long time. That's, that's what I would try to say 1233 01:06:31.989 --> 01:06:35.519 is no, maybe he sees himself as a world champion 1234 01:06:35.539 --> 01:06:38.000 or a main eventer or more serious character, but, But 1235 01:06:38.019 --> 01:06:40.840 he plays this character really well, and you can have 1236 01:06:40.900 --> 01:06:44.000 a long career in WWE if you embrace that role 1237 01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:46.519 and run with it. And it was getting over, obviously. 1238 01:06:46.599 --> 01:06:48.469 I mean, the fans really grew to like him in 1239 01:06:48.489 --> 01:06:50.730 that role, especially when he was doing the stuff with Miz. 1240 01:06:50.750 --> 01:06:54.409 It was getting a great reaction. But that's what I see. 1241 01:06:54.469 --> 01:06:58.550 Everyone has a different role and different strengths, and they're 1242 01:06:58.610 --> 01:07:01.500 suited for certain. And I thought that was him perfectly. 1243 01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:05.139 I thought that was perfect for his talents. I don't 1244 01:07:05.199 --> 01:07:08.500 see him as anything beyond that. And no, there was 1245 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:11.239 never a time in WWE where I thought, hey, let's 1246 01:07:11.260 --> 01:07:13.659 give him a more serious edge and see if he 1247 01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:17.719 can run with it. Maybe that was just my take 1248 01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:21.090 on it or some kind of inherent, it was just 1249 01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:23.250 a feeling that I had about him when I saw 1250 01:07:23.269 --> 01:07:23.829 him as a talent. 1251 01:07:24.829 --> 01:07:28.090 Yeah, and I will underline that I've heard really good 1252 01:07:28.110 --> 01:07:31.489 things about him too as a person and someone who asked, 1253 01:07:31.809 --> 01:07:33.409 I think Sean Wallman was the one who was on 1254 01:07:33.449 --> 01:07:36.309 this program And talked about how he's a guy, if 1255 01:07:36.349 --> 01:07:39.090 you talk to him in the back, his mind is 1256 01:07:39.190 --> 01:07:41.489 actively going all the time, trying to figure out how 1257 01:07:41.510 --> 01:07:43.730 to frame himself. He's asked the right questions. He does 1258 01:07:43.750 --> 01:07:47.349 so respectfully. He was a student of the game. And 1259 01:07:47.389 --> 01:07:55.449 that's why I have been more disappointed that he hasn't 1260 01:07:56.250 --> 01:08:00.150 found a better lane in TNA to present his character. 1261 01:08:00.190 --> 01:08:02.309 I think he's almost maybe in a knee-jerk way gone 1262 01:08:02.349 --> 01:08:05.489 too far away from what he was what people liked 1263 01:08:05.550 --> 01:08:07.630 about him when he was Damian Sandow. And, you know, 1264 01:08:07.989 --> 01:08:10.050 the Miz breakup with Damian was so botched. I mean, 1265 01:08:10.070 --> 01:08:13.449 fans were waiting to explode and have that moment of 1266 01:08:13.690 --> 01:08:16.380 joy when he finally had enough of the Miz. And 1267 01:08:16.420 --> 01:08:18.520 I think he really hurt himself. And I think that 1268 01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:20.960 stench is even on him in TNA a little bit, 1269 01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:24.979 that he didn't ever really, really have that moment. He 1270 01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:28.539 took too much from Miz. And when he finally broke up, 1271 01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:30.699 it was flat. I don't think it was all that memorable. 1272 01:08:30.739 --> 01:08:33.909 It wasn't satisfying enough. And I think that he actually, 1273 01:08:33.989 --> 01:08:37.600 it kind of was emasculating a little bit that he 1274 01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:39.899 took as much abuse as he did and never really 1275 01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:43.420 fully got that revenge. And so some certain things definitely 1276 01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:46.199 working against him, but I mean, he's a valuable guy. 1277 01:08:46.220 --> 01:08:50.300 If TNA survives and runs tapings next week, I still 1278 01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:56.289 am more optimistic that he can become a deserving and 1279 01:08:56.729 --> 01:08:59.890 major contributor to TNA, but I think it needs a 1280 01:08:59.939 --> 01:09:01.619 little bit of a change in the steering of his 1281 01:09:01.659 --> 01:09:04.739 character and the presentation of it. The last guy that. 1282 01:09:05.460 --> 01:09:08.500 Oh, yeah, go ahead. I'll just say one last thing. 1283 01:09:08.539 --> 01:09:11.439 Something I wrote about on my blog talking about his 1284 01:09:11.479 --> 01:09:14.430 debut in TNA is that I wouldn't have programmed him 1285 01:09:14.489 --> 01:09:17.510 right away with Chuck Galloway. I would have started him 1286 01:09:17.569 --> 01:09:20.850 maybe at someone like an Eli Drake. where I think 1287 01:09:21.000 --> 01:09:23.840 that's where you could have seen maybe more of the 1288 01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:27.520 Sandow-type traits come out of him, where you have, certainly 1289 01:09:27.560 --> 01:09:30.260 between the two of them, two entertaining talkers, and it 1290 01:09:30.300 --> 01:09:34.069 wouldn't be necessarily as high on the card as maybe 1291 01:09:34.090 --> 01:09:37.989 a match against Galloway would be. And Galloway is such 1292 01:09:38.010 --> 01:09:40.909 an ass-kicking character, especially now that he's turned heel, and 1293 01:09:40.949 --> 01:09:45.020 it just seems like such a bad fit for the 1294 01:09:45.109 --> 01:09:47.859 debuting Aaron Rex character to be right in there in 1295 01:09:47.880 --> 01:09:50.829 this intense issue of, with drew galloway i would much 1296 01:09:50.869 --> 01:09:52.729 rather have seen him come in like i said against 1297 01:09:52.750 --> 01:09:55.210 maybe someone like an eli drake which i

think could 1298 01:09:55.229 --> 01:09:58.689 have really done wonders for him as an introductory program 1299 01:09:58.789 --> 01:10:00.550 and then you could have maybe moved him up the 1300 01:10:00.590 --> 01:10:03.210 card from there i think it was too much too soon. 1301 01:10:04.250 --> 01:10:06.310 I'm with you on that uh bobby lashley was the 1302 01:10:06.329 --> 01:10:08.390 last guy romeo asked about um it's been a good 1303 01:10:08.569 --> 01:10:11.770 uh good conversation starter his series of names for us 1304 01:10:11.850 --> 01:10:15.170 and it's been an interesting talk and Good insights, especially 1305 01:10:15.210 --> 01:10:18.550 given that you were around three of these guys when 1306 01:10:18.569 --> 01:10:20.890 they were in WWE so far. Bobby Lashley's had a 1307 01:10:20.970 --> 01:10:26.050 really good year. I joke that prior to this year, 1308 01:10:26.069 --> 01:10:27.640 he had one facial expression, and one of the big 1309 01:10:27.649 --> 01:10:29.100 things that happened is he gained three or four new 1310 01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:36.300 ones this year. But he has blossomed. I don't know 1311 01:10:36.380 --> 01:10:40.979 if he was always nervous on camera or... or was 1312 01:10:41.060 --> 01:10:43.880 produced poorly or felt he had to project a certain image. 1313 01:10:44.380 --> 01:10:47.460 But man, is he so much better this year in 1314 01:10:47.479 --> 01:10:50.180 the area that was the biggest weakness for him prior. 1315 01:10:50.779 --> 01:10:53.100 And granted, he's older. He's not a guy that you're 1316 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:55.310 going to want to build around as a long-term guy 1317 01:10:55.350 --> 01:10:58.770 at this point. But I think he's main roster ready. 1318 01:10:58.810 --> 01:11:02.050 And when I talk about WWE loading up the cruiserweight 1319 01:11:02.090 --> 01:11:05.350 division with the best guys in that size, and by 1320 01:11:05.369 --> 01:11:06.869 the way, I should note, I think Sami Zayn's a 1321 01:11:06.869 --> 01:11:11.350 heavyweight height guy. I think he's six feet-ish tall, and 1322 01:11:11.590 --> 01:11:14.970 I think he's a guy who can credibly work with 1323 01:11:15.350 --> 01:11:18.510 Kevin Owens and Seth Rollins and Roman Reigns as a heel. 1324 01:11:18.649 --> 01:11:20.229 When Roman turns heel, I'm going to just say it 1325 01:11:20.289 --> 01:11:23.630 like it's inevitable because it should be. I want him 1326 01:11:23.649 --> 01:11:25.560 in the heavyweight division. I think he is just above 1327 01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:27.760 that line, and I think anybody smaller than him is 1328 01:11:27.779 --> 01:11:31.479 below that line. But if you do that, that's where 1329 01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:35.670 you've got to bring in or not for sure abyss, 1330 01:11:35.689 --> 01:11:38.010 but the Drew Galloway and Bobby Lashley types to fill 1331 01:11:38.029 --> 01:11:41.449 out that heavyweight division because Bobby is so clearly a 1332 01:11:41.489 --> 01:11:45.449 heavyweight in his size and his body type. I would 1333 01:11:45.470 --> 01:11:46.729 love to see him come in and be on the 1334 01:11:46.760 --> 01:11:49.359 main roster as a babyface or a heel. And I 1335 01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:51.060 think that you can plug him in and get two 1336 01:11:51.079 --> 01:11:53.359 good years out of him making money on top with 1337 01:11:53.380 --> 01:11:55.220 the progress that he has shown in TNA. 1338 01:11:58.300 --> 01:12:01.159 I think Bobby Lashley is a guy who could come 1339 01:12:01.180 --> 01:12:04.520 into WWE, and this is the highest compliment I can give. 1340 01:12:05.539 --> 01:12:08.779 He could main event a pay-per-view against Brock Lesnar and 1341 01:12:08.819 --> 01:12:11.310 be believable. It's almost like the light bulb just went 1342 01:12:11.329 --> 01:12:21.399 on after all these years in the business overnight. We 1343 01:12:21.439 --> 01:12:25.140 just watched it, and I don't know whether certain people 1344 01:12:25.220 --> 01:12:28.220 were working with him behind the scenes in TNA that 1345 01:12:28.239 --> 01:12:29.939 were able to draw this out of him. It almost 1346 01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:32.979 seems like someone just said to him, Bobby, just relax. 1347 01:12:33.979 --> 01:12:37.399 You're a badass. You look like one, and just go 1348 01:12:37.500 --> 01:12:41.520 out there and be confident. Say whatever's on your mind. 1349 01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:45.310 Just be this badass character, and don't worry about anything. 1350 01:12:46.029 --> 01:12:50.539 And he's been incredible. I would give him the most 1351 01:12:50.619 --> 01:12:53.420 improved wrestler of the year award, which is crazy for 1352 01:12:53.460 --> 01:12:55.079 a guy that's been around as long as he has. 1353 01:12:55.699 --> 01:13:00.239 But everything is clicking with him. He has the physical presence, obviously. 1354 01:13:00.640 --> 01:13:03.079 He's as good in the ring as he's ever been. 1355 01:13:04.500 --> 01:13:07.560 But beyond that, the presence, the way he carries himself, 1356 01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:10.689 the facial expressions to Europe, all the things that were 1357 01:13:10.710 --> 01:13:16.189 considered his weaknesses, speaking, the whole package is there. And 1358 01:13:16.229 --> 01:13:18.810 I think you could make the case that he is 1359 01:13:18.890 --> 01:13:21.630 the best guy in the business right now who's not 1360 01:13:21.729 --> 01:13:25.069 in WWE. I think you could plug him into WWE 1361 01:13:25.130 --> 01:13:28.090 right now. He's a main eventer, whether it's Raw or 1362 01:13:28.109 --> 01:13:31.279 SmackDown for either title, whether it's going against Brock Lesnar. 1363 01:13:32.579 --> 01:13:35.159 I think they would love to have Bobby Lashley back. 1364 01:13:35.819 --> 01:13:38.520 He was certainly not ready back in the day, back 1365 01:13:38.539 --> 01:13:41.550 during the old Donald Trump, Vince McMahon battle of the billionaires. 1366 01:13:42.189 --> 01:13:45.710 Bobby

Lashley was clearly not ready for that spot. And 1367 01:13:45.729 --> 01:13:48.850 I think everyone but Vince McMahon probably knew that. It's 1368 01:13:48.890 --> 01:13:51.210 like night and day. That guy that we saw back 1369 01:13:51.270 --> 01:13:53.409 then compared to the guy we're seeing now. 1370 01:13:53.609 --> 01:13:56.350 And given what Vince McMahon thought of him then, given 1371 01:13:56.369 --> 01:13:58.489 what Vince thought of him then, if he saw him now, 1372 01:13:59.100 --> 01:14:00.869 you would think he would be like, snatch this guy up. 1373 01:14:02.399 --> 01:14:04.939 I would think so. I mean, because he's developed into 1374 01:14:05.060 --> 01:14:08.159 everything and beyond, I think, that they thought he could be. Look, 1375 01:14:08.420 --> 01:14:10.920 they clearly were grooming him to be a top babyface 1376 01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:14.710 for years to come. And it's something, you know, WWE would, 1377 01:14:15.149 --> 01:14:19.430 you know, they need an African-American babyface. And whether he's 1378 01:14:19.470 --> 01:14:22.229 that babyface or heel or whatever role he's going to play, 1379 01:14:23.489 --> 01:14:26.550 I think he would be a huge get for WWE. 1380 01:14:27.649 --> 01:14:31.670 Totally agree. iPhone users, if you're listening to us on 1381 01:14:31.689 --> 01:14:34.909 the native podcast app on your iPhone, you can unlock 1382 01:14:35.020 --> 01:14:39.659 our commercial-free versions of our free shows by searching PWTorch 1383 01:14:40.060 --> 01:14:42.399 in Apple Podcasts. You'll see a charcoal gray logo that 1384 01:14:42.439 --> 01:14:44.880 says PWTorch VIP on it. Click on that. There's some 1385 01:14:44.899 --> 01:14:48.159 free samples of VIP shows, and you can unlock the 1386 01:14:48.199 --> 01:14:52.039 entire VIP lineup, which includes VIP exclusives plus commercial-free versions 1387 01:14:52.159 --> 01:14:55.739 of the free shows by searching PWTorch in Apple Podcasts 1388 01:14:55.779 --> 01:14:58.409 and clicking on the PWTorch VIP logo. and then activate 1389 01:14:58.430 --> 01:15:00.609 your three-day free trial. And after that, you can become 1390 01:15:00.770 --> 01:15:03.670 a VIP member using your Apple account. It's that easy. 1391 01:15:03.789 --> 01:15:06.989 Enjoy a streamlined listening experience to our free shows and 1392 01:15:07.210 --> 01:15:10.859 unlock all the VIP exclusives, including our post-pay-per-view roundtables, the 1393 01:15:10.880 --> 01:15:13.840 Wade Keller news bulletins, everything with Rich and Wade, the 1394 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:16.500 fix that I host with Todd Martin, and a variety 1395 01:15:16.520 --> 01:15:20.010 of other VIP exclusives. Just search PWTorch in your Apple 1396 01:15:20.020 --> 01:15:23.630 Podcast app. In our final minutes here, because I do 1397 01:15:23.670 --> 01:15:26.869 have to run in about five minutes, but I would 1398 01:15:26.890 --> 01:15:29.130 like to close, Kevin, a good conversation with you. I 1399 01:15:29.149 --> 01:15:31.430 feel like we barely scratched the surface and went places 1400 01:15:31.449 --> 01:15:33.720 I didn't expect, but that's just fine. I do want 1401 01:15:33.739 --> 01:15:37.079 to touch on the last three days of WWE. We 1402 01:15:37.100 --> 01:15:39.439 talked about the cruiserweights already, but as far as the 1403 01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:45.649 heavyweight divisions on both shows and where the titles are, 1404 01:15:46.270 --> 01:15:51.109 AJ Styles, as the leader, headed into No Mercy. with 1405 01:15:51.189 --> 01:15:54.180 Dean Ambrose and John Cena. What do you think of 1406 01:15:54.319 --> 01:15:56.939 what they've done with AJ Styles and how he has 1407 01:15:57.539 --> 01:15:59.680 risen to the occasion with a brand to kind of 1408 01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:00.779 be the lead heel for? 1409 01:16:00.800 --> 01:16:06.739 I think it's been fantastic. I think the WWE title situation, 1410 01:16:06.779 --> 01:16:12.550 the title picture on SmackDown is fantastic. AJ is, he's doing, 1411 01:16:13.010 --> 01:16:14.569 and this is saying something to say he's doing the 1412 01:16:14.609 --> 01:16:16.369 best work of his career because obviously he's had a 1413 01:16:16.489 --> 01:16:19.859 long and very accomplished career. But he's as good as 1414 01:16:19.899 --> 01:16:22.300 he's ever been, not just in the ring, which is 1415 01:16:22.380 --> 01:16:26.869 always great, but he has really found his stride as 1416 01:16:26.909 --> 01:16:30.050 a character, as a voice, as a heel. He's doing 1417 01:16:30.069 --> 01:16:35.409 incredible work. Dean and John Cena, obviously John Cena is 1418 01:16:35.430 --> 01:16:39.670 the biggest star in WWE. Ambrose, also a big star. 1419 01:16:39.750 --> 01:16:43.899 You've got a star-studded WWE title picture right now. And 1420 01:16:43.939 --> 01:16:46.520 I think whatever happens in this triple threat match coming 1421 01:16:46.539 --> 01:16:48.949 up at No Mercy... Ultimately, we're going to go back 1422 01:16:49.029 --> 01:16:52.989 to AJ Styles and John Cena one-on-one, and I think 1423 01:16:53.029 --> 01:16:55.699 there's a great story there. Obviously, with the history they 1424 01:16:55.739 --> 01:16:59.079 already have, Styles taking the title from him clean, and 1425 01:16:59.100 --> 01:17:02.319 I think there's a redemption tale to be told of 1426 01:17:02.420 --> 01:17:06.189 John Cena. You start to see it play out now 1427 01:17:06.199 --> 01:17:09.750 of him being the elder statesman, and has he lost 1428 01:17:09.829 --> 01:17:13.369 a step, and also going for history, going after Ric 1429 01:17:13.409 --> 01:17:16.909 Flair's record of 16 world titles. I think that's a 1430 01:17:16.949 --> 01:17:18.529 story you may be able to tell all the way 1431 01:17:18.569 --> 01:17:22.569 to WrestleMania. But I think they're in a great spot 1432 01:17:22.609 --> 01:17:25.770 right now. And even after, you know, once Cena and 1433 01:17:25.850 --> 01:17:28.579 Ambrose and

that's run its course, I think there are 1434 01:17:28.600 --> 01:17:31.560 other guys there as well that can step up. You know, 1435 01:17:32.380 --> 01:17:34.520 depending on who holds the title, whether heel or babyface, 1436 01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:36.920 I think Baron Corbin's a guy who can eventually step 1437 01:17:36.939 --> 01:17:39.859 into the title picture. I think, you know, obviously it 1438 01:17:39.880 --> 01:17:41.279 looks like they're about to pull the trigger on a 1439 01:17:41.319 --> 01:17:44.779 big storyline with Dolph Ziggler. Miz is doing incredible work 1440 01:17:44.819 --> 01:17:48.590 right now, so... I think the main event picture on 1441 01:17:48.609 --> 01:17:50.229 SmackDown is in really good shape. 1442 01:17:50.710 --> 01:17:53.390 What's your evaluation of what's working and not working with 1443 01:17:53.430 --> 01:17:57.170 Dolph Ziggler in the short run most recently and really 1444 01:17:57.189 --> 01:17:58.649 over the last three, four years with him? 1445 01:17:59.590 --> 01:18:02.010 Well, I mean, with Dolph, it's always just been, you know, 1446 01:18:02.069 --> 01:18:05.069 it's just been stop and start. It's like the fans 1447 01:18:05.109 --> 01:18:07.220 were ready for him to get a push at certain points, 1448 01:18:07.350 --> 01:18:10.520 and they were ready. It seemed like the management was 1449 01:18:10.539 --> 01:18:12.659 ready to pull the trigger, and it was always, you know, 1450 01:18:12.899 --> 01:18:15.060 it was never a real push. It was just a tease, 1451 01:18:15.119 --> 01:18:17.119 and then he went back to, sort of where he's been, 1452 01:18:17.640 --> 01:18:19.819 but Dolph as talented as he is, he's got a 1453 01:18:19.859 --> 01:18:22.579 lot of stink on him from losing so much. And 1454 01:18:22.600 --> 01:18:25.739 the way he's been portrayed as a mid Carter, um, 1455 01:18:26.079 --> 01:18:27.979 who could have great matches, but he's never going to 1456 01:18:28.020 --> 01:18:31.350 be the guy. I think that's hurt him. This storyline has, 1457 01:18:31.470 --> 01:18:33.510 has brought all of that. You know, it's, it's made 1458 01:18:33.529 --> 01:18:37.100 it into the storyline, uh, the real life situation of, 1459 01:18:37.289 --> 01:18:40.630 of Ziegler. And I think it's kind of, uh, rejuvenated 1460 01:18:40.710 --> 01:18:43.810 him as a character. And I think at least my 1461 01:18:43.869 --> 01:18:46.350 perception is it's, it's made me more interested in him. 1462 01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:48.579 I don't know if it's, if it's really caught on 1463 01:18:48.739 --> 01:18:51.960 the audience as a whole, I think it has. But 1464 01:18:52.000 --> 01:18:53.859 I think that, you know, he's at a point right 1465 01:18:53.880 --> 01:18:56.500 now where they can do something meaningful with him, whether, 1466 01:18:56.520 --> 01:19:00.359 no matter how this turns out with putting his career 1467 01:19:00.430 --> 01:19:03.029 on the line, whether it leads to him winning or 1468 01:19:03.050 --> 01:19:05.869 whether he loses and he snaps and he turns heel 1469 01:19:05.930 --> 01:19:08.560 and he finds a way back in. I think there's 1470 01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:11.000 more focus and interest on the Dolph Ziggler character than 1471 01:19:11.020 --> 01:19:14.979 there's been in a long time. When I was, again, 1472 01:19:15.060 --> 01:19:20.359 in WWE, there was the powers that be. It seemed 1473 01:19:20.399 --> 01:19:23.489 like they always found what was wrong with Dolph Ziggler 1474 01:19:23.529 --> 01:19:25.550 than what was right. It was the opposite of the 1475 01:19:25.609 --> 01:19:27.970 way Paul Heyman used to book in ECW, where he 1476 01:19:27.989 --> 01:19:31.590 would look at a guy, assess their strengths and weaknesses. 1477 01:19:32.470 --> 01:19:35.300 He was a master at hiding their weaknesses and amplifying 1478 01:19:35.340 --> 01:19:38.649 their strengths and almost It was almost magical how he 1479 01:19:38.670 --> 01:19:40.800 could make you not see or how he could hide 1480 01:19:40.810 --> 01:19:44.039 people's flaws. In WWE, it was almost like they looked 1481 01:19:44.079 --> 01:19:47.340 at Ziggler. This is the impression I got. They would 1482 01:19:47.359 --> 01:19:49.119 point out, well, yeah, he's great, and he does this, 1483 01:19:49.260 --> 01:19:52.060 but here's what's wrong with him. He doesn't have good instincts. 1484 01:19:52.960 --> 01:19:55.619 He yells when he should be quiet, and he's quiet 1485 01:19:55.659 --> 01:19:59.130 when he should yell in interviews. Those are all the things. 1486 01:19:59.510 --> 01:20:01.050 He's not as good. He's good, but he's not as 1487 01:20:01.090 --> 01:20:03.569 good as he thinks he is, and blah, blah, blah. 1488 01:20:04.149 --> 01:20:06.619 So I think it was always more like, why isn't he... 1489 01:20:07.159 --> 01:20:10.640 What's the reason why he won't make it, rather than, well, 1490 01:20:10.659 --> 01:20:13.939 let's take these good things and let's enhance them and 1491 01:20:13.979 --> 01:20:16.079 make sure that he makes it. That seemed to be 1492 01:20:16.100 --> 01:20:16.520 the philosophy. 1493 01:20:16.699 --> 01:20:18.140 And that is such great insight, because you can be 1494 01:20:18.180 --> 01:20:20.920 completely right, because everything you said about Dolph there that 1495 01:20:20.939 --> 01:20:25.020 was critical of him, I think is 100% right. But stop... Well, 1496 01:20:25.060 --> 01:20:28.380 the problem in WWE is when you pinpoint what's wrong 1497 01:20:28.399 --> 01:20:30.840 with someone, that should not be the reason that you 1498 01:20:30.899 --> 01:20:36.920 don't push them. That should be... information that you utilize 1499 01:20:37.180 --> 01:20:40.699 to focus elsewhere on what they have. That is an asset. 1500 01:20:41.100 --> 01:20:45.760 And then work to shine a spotlight on that and, and, 1501 01:20:45.939 --> 01:20:48.770 and accentuate that and put him in positions to be 1502 01:20:48.850 -->

01:20:51.750 coached or framed in a way that hides those weaknesses. 1503 01:20:52.210 --> 01:20:54.729 It should not, if he doesn't have instincts in the 1504 01:20:54.789 --> 01:20:56.789 ring or on the mic that you think are proper, 1505 01:20:57.449 --> 01:21:00.510 don't ridicule him for it. Don't not push him for it. Instead, 1506 01:21:01.180 --> 01:21:03.720 coach it and frame it in a way where you 1507 01:21:03.760 --> 01:21:07.659 take advantage of the immense talents that he has. It 1508 01:21:07.720 --> 01:21:10.229 should not be that hard to get somebody who yells 1509 01:21:10.279 --> 01:21:12.689 too much to stop yelling too much. That's a three 1510 01:21:12.729 --> 01:21:17.390 minute conversation that can change him forever. So I just, hopefully, 1511 01:21:17.409 --> 01:21:19.890 I mean, and I think there was too much yelling 1512 01:21:20.329 --> 01:21:23.029 the last couple of weeks with Dolph yet again, which 1513 01:21:23.109 --> 01:21:25.930 worries me, but if he isn't done after no mercy, 1514 01:21:27.039 --> 01:21:29.310 I'm interested for sure in seeing what they do with him, 1515 01:21:29.340 --> 01:21:31.439 especially if they go the route of him going heel 1516 01:21:31.500 --> 01:21:34.460 and deciding the only way that he can make it 1517 01:21:34.779 --> 01:21:36.520 is not living up to the principles that he used 1518 01:21:36.560 --> 01:21:40.619 to because it wasn't working for him. I don't know. 1519 01:21:40.920 --> 01:21:42.819 I'm intrigued, though. I thought they did a good job 1520 01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:44.840 Thursday leaving the door open for a lot of possibilities, 1521 01:21:44.880 --> 01:21:46.899 and it made me interested in that match yet again, 1522 01:21:46.939 --> 01:21:49.000 which I didn't think necessarily was going to happen. 1523 01:21:50.699 --> 01:21:52.939 Both guys are doing incredible work. I think you really 1524 01:21:52.970 --> 01:21:57.210 have to compliment Miz as well. talk about a guy 1525 01:21:57.250 --> 01:22:02.680 finding his stride he knows his character so well and 1526 01:22:02.689 --> 01:22:05.239 he's so smooth on the mic he's way better in 1527 01:22:05.279 --> 01:22:07.000 the ring than people want to give credit for and 1528 01:22:07.600 --> 01:22:10.199 he and Dolph you probably know are friends in real 1529 01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:13.159 life so I think they play off each other very 1530 01:22:13.220 --> 01:22:15.920 well they have good chemistry on the mic in the 1531 01:22:15.979 --> 01:22:20.270 ring and yeah I'm really enjoying this program a lot 1532 01:22:20.310 --> 01:22:22.640 more than I probably would have believed if you told 1533 01:22:22.659 --> 01:22:24.239 me a couple months ago that, you know, we're going 1534 01:22:24.260 --> 01:22:26.399 to see all these matches between Miz and Dolph Ziggler 1535 01:22:26.420 --> 01:22:28.840 with the Intercontinental title. I would be like, oh, man, 1536 01:22:29.180 --> 01:22:31.159 it's not like we haven't seen that before. But it's 1537 01:22:31.199 --> 01:22:32.180 been really, really good. 1538 01:22:33.039 --> 01:22:33.460 Absolutely. 1539 01:22:39.340 --> 01:22:42.359 Longing for some nostalgia? Or maybe you want to learn 1540 01:22:42.399 --> 01:22:46.640 some wrestling history? Don't miss the 90s Passcast every Friday 1541 01:22:46.680 --> 01:22:50.250 on the PWTorch Daily Cast feed. Alex and Patrick will 1542 01:22:50.289 --> 01:22:53.470 transport you 30 years into the past by taking you 1543 01:22:53.510 --> 01:22:54.510 through the Torch. 1544 01:22:54.449 --> 01:22:55.770 Issue from that very week. 1545 01:22:56.409 --> 01:22:59.489 Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the 1546 01:22:59.550 --> 01:23:02.729 happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as 1547 01:23:02.770 --> 01:23:06.149 The Torch reported it 30 years ago. That's the 90s 1548 01:23:06.220 --> 01:23:09.560 past cast every Friday on the PW Torch daily cast feed. 1549 01:23:19.069 --> 01:23:21.920 And a final note, your thoughts on the Raw Universal 1550 01:23:21.960 --> 01:23:26.140 title scene, what they're doing with Seth Rollins and the 1551 01:23:26.180 --> 01:23:29.579 dynamic with Mick Foley and Stephanie, Mick trying to see 1552 01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:32.510 if he has faith in Stephanie or not, Seth Rollins 1553 01:23:32.710 --> 01:23:35.430 playing up the storyline of you guys chose Kevin Owens 1554 01:23:35.489 --> 01:23:38.989 over me. My criticism of this is I think the 1555 01:23:39.010 --> 01:23:42.050 weakest baby face turn you can have is being rejected 1556 01:23:42.109 --> 01:23:44.520 by the top heels who used to help you win 1557 01:23:44.880 --> 01:23:47.560 because they have now decided somebody else is better than you. 1558 01:23:48.590 --> 01:23:50.890 I just don't think that's the core of a babyface 1559 01:23:50.930 --> 01:23:52.479 turn that's going to get a lot of fans behind him. 1560 01:23:54.380 --> 01:23:57.079 I've written that exact same thing, and it's not like... 1561 01:23:57.460 --> 01:23:59.140 I don't think you or I are necessarily the smartest 1562 01:23:59.159 --> 01:24:00.979 guys in the world to point that out, right? I mean, 1563 01:24:01.020 --> 01:24:02.890 that almost seems like a no-brainer, doesn't it? 1564 01:24:03.000 --> 01:24:03.520 It does, yes. 1565 01:24:03.619 --> 01:24:07.590 That's like a textbook example of how not to try 1566 01:24:07.600 --> 01:24:11.810 to make a babyface turn work. No, I hate the storyline, and... 1567 01:24:13.250 --> 01:24:15.550 I will say this. I'm a huge Kevin Owens fan, 1568 01:24:15.689 --> 01:24:17.949 and I'm really, really glad that he has the title. 1569 01:24:18.430 --> 01:24:20.149 I thought he was the right guy to put it on. 1570 01:24:20.180 --> 01:24:24.180 I even think going down the line that he could 1571 01:24:24.199 --> 01:24:26.279 be a huge baby face and could be the face 1572 01:24:26.319 --> 01:24:28.500 of this company as the champion because he

has that 1573 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:31.859 every man quality to him, and he doesn't look like 1574 01:24:31.899 --> 01:24:36.270 a star, but he is. He wrestles better. He's more 1575 01:24:36.319 --> 01:24:38.909 athletic than he looks, and he's just so good on 1576 01:24:38.930 --> 01:24:40.890 the mic and all those things. But as far as 1577 01:24:40.909 --> 01:24:45.180 the storyline goes, No, it's terrible. Seth Rollins has done 1578 01:24:45.300 --> 01:24:48.649 nothing to sort of let people in, as they say, 1579 01:24:48.689 --> 01:24:51.829 let the fans in. Why am I rooting for this guy? 1580 01:24:52.689 --> 01:24:56.510 The only reason he's quote-unquote a babyface, as you said, 1581 01:24:56.529 --> 01:25:00.569 is because the heel authority figures decided to choose someone else. 1582 01:25:00.970 --> 01:25:04.779 Seth was very happy to allow Triple H to come 1583 01:25:04.819 --> 01:25:08.500 in the ring, pedigree Roman Reigns, and win the match 1584 01:25:08.539 --> 01:25:11.449 that way. He had no problem with that. So now 1585 01:25:11.489 --> 01:25:15.260 we're supposed to feel empathy for Seth Rollins saying, hey, 1586 01:25:15.300 --> 01:25:17.420 Triple H screwed me out of the title. But he 1587 01:25:17.460 --> 01:25:20.539 was perfectly willing to win that way himself. And the 1588 01:25:20.600 --> 01:25:23.560 whining of going to Stephanie and saying, why did you 1589 01:25:23.579 --> 01:25:26.399 throw it all away? Why did you pick Kevin Owens 1590 01:25:26.500 --> 01:25:30.130 over me? This is not a guy that I want 1591 01:25:30.149 --> 01:25:34.810 to cheer for. It wouldn't have been that hard to 1592 01:25:34.829 --> 01:25:40.270 just slightly change his verbiage and his message that that 1593 01:25:40.329 --> 01:25:42.939 he could have gotten people behind him to just say, hey, 1594 01:25:42.960 --> 01:25:46.279 you know, I took the authority's help all those years because, 1595 01:25:46.319 --> 01:25:48.260 you know, why wouldn't I? It was there, and it 1596 01:25:48.279 --> 01:25:50.439 was too good to pass up. But I never needed it. 1597 01:25:51.180 --> 01:25:54.010 And I actually did a disservice to myself because now 1598 01:25:54.029 --> 01:25:56.210 people believe I needed that help. Well, I'll go out 1599 01:25:56.229 --> 01:25:58.090 and show you that I didn't need it, and I'll 1600 01:25:58.130 --> 01:26:00.310 prove that to Kevin Owens and the authority and everyone else. 1601 01:26:01.050 --> 01:26:03.439 All it would take is a simple promo like that, 1602 01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:06.760 and immediately I'm like, oh, okay, I get it. You know, 1603 01:26:07.159 --> 01:26:08.859 he was kind of smart before. He was put in 1604 01:26:08.899 --> 01:26:10.789 a position as the chosen one, and he ran with it. 1605 01:26:11.159 --> 01:26:14.380 Now he's not. And if he was just more defiant, saying, 1606 01:26:14.399 --> 01:26:16.479 you know what, I took your help, but I never 1607 01:26:16.520 --> 01:26:18.920 needed it, and I'll show you that I can win 1608 01:26:18.939 --> 01:26:22.310 without you. All right, now I get it. But the 1609 01:26:22.399 --> 01:26:24.909 whining and, you know, why did you pick him over 1610 01:26:24.949 --> 01:26:26.109 me like a jilted lover? 1611 01:26:26.130 --> 01:26:27.130 Yes. 1612 01:26:27.590 --> 01:26:30.109 I just don't get it at all. To me, he's 1613 01:26:30.170 --> 01:26:34.390 the least likable baby face ever. And that's a big 1614 01:26:34.430 --> 01:26:37.520 problem on Raw right now. is there's no lead babyface. 1615 01:26:37.560 --> 01:26:39.890 That's what happens when you take a John Cena, move 1616 01:26:39.909 --> 01:26:42.689 him over to SmackDown, or even a Dean Ambrose. Now 1617 01:26:42.710 --> 01:26:46.149 we're left with Seth Rollins, like I said, a horrible... 1618 01:26:46.130 --> 01:26:49.170 The storyline to turn him has been horrible. Roman Reigns, 1619 01:26:49.229 --> 01:26:52.829 who I'm a fan of, but obviously at least half 1620 01:26:52.869 --> 01:26:56.130 the audience can't stand him. So you have no lead 1621 01:26:56.170 --> 01:26:59.760 babyface on the flagship show. And it's a glaring error, 1622 01:26:59.819 --> 01:27:02.300 and it's really hurting the main event scene there right now. 1623 01:27:03.140 --> 01:27:05.760 Vincent Mann calls you tonight and says, Kevin, I always 1624 01:27:05.800 --> 01:27:08.159 respected your opinion. I'm torn on what to do with 1625 01:27:08.220 --> 01:27:10.930 Roman Reigns. Should I turn him heel or keep him babyface? 1626 01:27:10.949 --> 01:27:12.630 What do you recommend? 1627 01:27:14.989 --> 01:27:17.109 I've gone back and forth on this, but I finally 1628 01:27:17.149 --> 01:27:18.989 threw my hands up in the air and I said, 1629 01:27:19.010 --> 01:27:20.569 you know, I think he has to be a heel. 1630 01:27:21.409 --> 01:27:26.420 And you're just, you've been fighting uphill for too long. 1631 01:27:27.060 --> 01:27:29.520 It's not, you know, there was a time when I thought, 1632 01:27:29.539 --> 01:27:33.399 stay the course. and you'll wear the audience down. And 1633 01:27:33.420 --> 01:27:35.880 there've been moments where I thought, okay, maybe it was working, 1634 01:27:36.460 --> 01:27:38.359 but look, we're still pretty much in the same place. 1635 01:27:39.619 --> 01:27:42.659 Why we're continuing to fight uphill. I don't know. You 1636 01:27:43.060 --> 01:27:46.359 need a, you could use a strong heel like Roman and, 1637 01:27:46.560 --> 01:27:48.319 and I would pull the trigger on that. You know, 1638 01:27:48.359 --> 01:27:52.399 whether that helps, uh, Seth Rollins in his baby face turn, 1639 01:27:53.020 --> 01:27:55.640 whether somewhere down the line, it could be a double 1640 01:27:55.680 --> 01:27:59.319 switch between Roman and Kevin Owens. I just think it 1641 01:27:59.350 --> 01:28:04.000 has to be done. Um, People were cheering for the Russian. 1642 01:28:04.020 --> 01:28:05.880 The anti-American or Bulgarian. 1643

01:28:05.899 --> 01:28:07.680 The Bulgarian brute with the Russian wife. 1644 01:28:08.199 --> 01:28:11.100 The Bulgarian brute with the Russian wife was getting more 1645 01:28:11.300 --> 01:28:15.649 cheers than supposedly the top babyface on the show. I 1646 01:28:15.670 --> 01:28:17.810 think that's a problem. And I think you have to 1647 01:28:17.869 --> 01:28:19.439 acknowledge that and you have to fix it. 1648 01:28:20.130 --> 01:28:22.949 I think if you turn the volume down and showed 1649 01:28:22.970 --> 01:28:26.500 somebody who doesn't watch wrestling Roman Reigns, I think they 1650 01:28:26.520 --> 01:28:28.649 would watch him come to the ring and They would 1651 01:28:28.670 --> 01:28:30.789 watch him cut promos, and they'd go, I don't like 1652 01:28:30.829 --> 01:28:34.640 that guy, and whoever he's wrestling, I'll cheer. And I 1653 01:28:34.659 --> 01:28:38.890 think that there's something about him, the way that, you know, 1654 01:28:38.909 --> 01:28:40.920 we talk about Bobby Lashley having... a certain demeanor on 1655 01:28:40.939 --> 01:28:43.539 camera that's different than off and it's the case with 1656 01:28:43.579 --> 01:28:46.420 a lot of wrestlers with Roman Reigns regardless of what 1657 01:28:46.439 --> 01:28:50.270 he's like behind the scenes on air I think there's 1658 01:28:50.329 --> 01:28:53.369 women whose knees buckle a little but for the most 1659 01:28:53.430 --> 01:28:55.850 part the guy audience looks at him and goes D-bag 1660 01:28:56.829 --> 01:29:01.210 and that guy thinks he's better than me and Again, 1661 01:29:01.229 --> 01:29:04.659 that's not a personal dig at Joe. But Roman Reigns 1662 01:29:04.920 --> 01:29:08.279 on air with that garb and with his demeanor and 1663 01:29:08.340 --> 01:29:11.239 how he's coached and how he's presented is somebody that 1664 01:29:11.300 --> 01:29:14.020 wrestling fans, when I look in a crowd and I 1665 01:29:14.060 --> 01:29:20.189 see what wrestling fans react to, he's this huge money heel. 1666 01:29:20.350 --> 01:29:23.409 Just waiting. It's just going to rain money when they 1667 01:29:23.430 --> 01:29:25.550 turn him heel. I don't think people are going to 1668 01:29:25.569 --> 01:29:26.949 start cheering for Roman Reigns when they turn him heel 1669 01:29:27.210 --> 01:29:29.289 just to be defiant. I think they genuinely don't like him. 1670 01:29:29.970 --> 01:29:32.270 And he will be the John Cena turn that never happened. 1671 01:29:33.069 --> 01:29:35.310 And if they do it, I think there's big, big 1672 01:29:35.350 --> 01:29:38.810 money in it. And they can fix Seth Rollins, or 1673 01:29:38.850 --> 01:29:42.020 they can turn Kevin Owens, or they can promote Sami Zayn, 1674 01:29:42.119 --> 01:29:45.340 or they can wait for Finn Balor, or whatever. But 1675 01:29:45.439 --> 01:29:49.039 right now, regardless of your babyface roster, there's enough options 1676 01:29:49.100 --> 01:29:51.720 out there. Roman Reigns is a heel. I think it's 1677 01:29:51.899 --> 01:29:53.640 a chance for 2017 to be a big year for 1678 01:29:53.659 --> 01:29:55.279 them and make a difference. I think people will pay 1679 01:29:55.779 --> 01:29:58.539 to boo him and enjoy the process of watching that 1680 01:29:58.560 --> 01:29:58.859 play out. 1681 01:30:00.550 --> 01:30:02.310 I agree with you completely. I think he is a 1682 01:30:02.369 --> 01:30:05.850 money-drawing heel for sure. And I wrote this as well, 1683 01:30:05.890 --> 01:30:08.109 I think, a week or two ago, that it's a 1684 01:30:08.149 --> 01:30:10.590 shame that we had this brand split now with the 1685 01:30:10.689 --> 01:30:13.729 Usos turning heel because I think if they were still 1686 01:30:13.750 --> 01:30:16.369 on the same show, you could put the three of 1687 01:30:16.409 --> 01:30:20.430 them together as a little faction, the three cousins, Reigns 1688 01:30:22.229 --> 01:30:26.449 as the leader, Jimmy and Jay as cousins, as the 1689 01:30:26.470 --> 01:30:29.060 tag team. You could put together a nice little faction 1690 01:30:29.069 --> 01:30:32.270 there all three of those guys have heat. They were all, 1691 01:30:33.300 --> 01:30:34.979 the reason all three of them would have turned is 1692 01:30:35.060 --> 01:30:37.460 because the audience turned on them first and you could 1693 01:30:37.500 --> 01:30:39.699 take that and run with it. And they could be 1694 01:30:39.800 --> 01:30:41.939 a cool, it could be the kind of thing where, yeah, 1695 01:30:41.960 --> 01:30:45.060 they have a great little run at the heel somewhere 1696 01:30:45.079 --> 01:30:47.960 down the line. It could be like another shield where 1697 01:30:48.100 --> 01:30:50.090 people start thinking they're pretty damn cool. 1698 01:30:51.229 --> 01:30:56.270 Might've lost Kevin mid sentence there, but we, uh, I 1699 01:30:56.289 --> 01:30:59.010 think got his point at the end there. Uh, Kevin, 1700 01:30:59.029 --> 01:31:00.329 thank you so much. If you can hear us, we 1701 01:31:00.350 --> 01:31:03.850 can no longer hear you. But thank you so much 1702 01:31:04.170 --> 01:31:06.829 for being on the show again today. And Kevin Eck 1703 01:31:06.869 --> 01:31:09.710 is a great guest. Check him out. The Kevin Eck Blog. 1704 01:31:10.270 --> 01:31:13.229 Just enter that on Google or Bing, your search engine 1705 01:31:13.250 --> 01:31:17.010 of choice, and his blog will pop up. Some good writing. Always, 1706 01:31:17.210 --> 01:31:20.090 always enjoy having him on the show. Great guest talking 1707 01:31:20.170 --> 01:31:24.060 current events. And, of course, there's that insight that only 1708 01:31:24.069 --> 01:31:25.840 somebody who spent a few years behind the scenes in 1709 01:31:26.300 --> 01:31:28.590 WWE can provide. on some of the names that we 1710 01:31:28.619 --> 01:31:31.529 talked about today. So educational show. Thank you so much, 1711 01:31:31.569 --> 01:31:34.609 Kevin Eck. Check out more conversation, me and Jason Powell 1712 01:31:34.630

--> 01:31:37.609 yesterday and tomorrow. Bruce Mitchell and Travis Bryant. Better yet, 1713 01:31:37.649 --> 01:31:40.470 go VIP and end up with three to four times 1714 01:31:40.529 --> 01:31:45.680 as many audio shows. Again, thanks to Kevin Eck, my 1715 01:31:45.699 --> 01:31:49.359 guest on today's program. If you haven't yet, it all 1716 01:31:49.420 --> 01:31:51.390 adds up. Thanks to those who are already doing it. 1717 01:31:51.859 --> 01:31:57.659 Follow us on Twitter, at PWTorch, at MMATorch. and me 1718 01:31:58.340 --> 01:32:07.109 at TheWadeKeller, T-H-E-W-A-D-E-K-E-L-L-E-R, at TheWadeKeller. Follow us on Twitter at 1719 01:32:07.149 --> 01:32:10.710 those three primary locations. And on that note, I thank 1720 01:32:10.729 --> 01:32:12.710 you for listening, and we sign off for today. 1721 01:32:12.729 --> 01:32:15.619 This is LifeCast. 1722 01:32:24.470 --> 01:32:27.649 Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our 1723 01:32:27.670 --> 01:32:32.949 shows commercial free. A nice streamlined listening experience. PWTorch.com slash 1724 01:32:32.989 --> 01:32:36.350 go VIP for full details on a commercial free listening experience. 1725 01:32:36.699 --> 01:32:39.239 And with a full VIP membership, you can create custom 1726 01:32:39.300 --> 01:32:42.119 feeds for individual shows or groups of shows by theme 1727 01:32:42.439 --> 01:32:45.640 and also unlock nearly four decades of archives and access 1728 01:32:45.720 --> 01:32:50.449 our ad free website with VIP exclusive content. PWTorch.com slash 1729 01:32:50.489 --> 01:32:52.539 go VIP or Your time is valuable, and that's one 1730 01:32:52.560 --> 01:32:56.689 of the reasons we offer VIP membership, pwtorch.com slash govip. 1731 01:32:58.109 --> 01:33:00.710 You can participate in the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast 1732 01:33:00.850 --> 01:33:05.979 by emailing your question or topic to wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com. 1733 01:33:06.270 --> 01:33:08.380 You can also participate in the Wade Keller Post Shows 1734 01:33:08.479 --> 01:33:14.079 by emailing wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com during or right after Raw, Dynamite, 1735 01:33:14.180 --> 01:33:16.460 or SmackDown. Let your voice, let your opinions be heard 1736 01:33:16.699 --> 01:33:20.319 on our shows via email, wadekellerpodcast at gmail.com for the 1737 01:33:20.340 --> 01:33:25.750 flagship and wadekellerpostshow at gmail.com for our post shows. It's 1738 01:33:25.829 --> 01:33:28.210 next-level coverage that you come to expect from the PW 1739 01:33:28.250 --> 01:33:33.029 Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors, 1740 01:33:33.390 --> 01:33:37.720 no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just high-quality writing, breaking news, 1741 01:33:37.920 --> 01:33:42.159 and fascinating flashbacks every day at pwtorch.com. Pull yourself away 1742 01:33:42.260 --> 01:33:44.479 from the vacuous social media experience that I know many 1743 01:33:44.500 --> 01:33:47.399 of you regret once you get lost in

it for minutes, 1744 01:33:47.460 --> 01:33:49.739 if not hours at a time, and settle in for 1745 01:33:49.949 --> 01:33:54.539 high-quality PW Torch-branded wrestling coverage. Admit it, you love Nick 1746 01:33:54.560 --> 01:33:56.550 Barbatti when he co-hosts with me on the Wade Keller 1747 01:33:56.600 --> 01:33:58.569 Post Shows. Well, now you can listen to him every 1748 01:33:58.649 --> 01:34:01.890 week on the Nicky's Club, a VIP exclusive podcast. Here's 1749 01:34:01.970 --> 01:34:02.989 Nick to tell you more. 1750 01:34:03.109 --> 01:34:05.550 Hey, wrestling fans. It's Nick Barbatti, and I'm back with 1751 01:34:05.569 --> 01:34:07.649 the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's 1752 01:34:07.710 --> 01:34:10.609 comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE. 1753 01:34:10.710 --> 01:34:13.609 From WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns, I got you covered. 1754 01:34:13.770 --> 01:34:15.979 The Nicky's Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest 1755 01:34:16.000 --> 01:34:16.579 club in town. 1756 01:34:16.800 --> 01:34:18.600 Nick Barbatti wants to be part of your pro wrestling 1757 01:34:18.619 --> 01:34:22.939 life every week, so... Why not let him? GoVIP. PWTorch.com 1758 01:34:23.239 --> 01:34:26.159 slash GoVIP for full details on signing up. We're compatible 1759 01:34:26.180 --> 01:34:29.460 with Patreon, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and just about any other 1760 01:34:29.619 --> 01:34:31.619 iOS or Android app out there. You can also stream 1761 01:34:31.640 --> 01:34:34.649 directly from our ad-free VIP website. The Nicky's Club, waiting 1762 01:34:34.689 --> 01:34:39.369 for you every week at PWTorch VIP. Did you know 1763 01:34:39.409 --> 01:34:42.770 that you can enjoy commercial-free versions of all of your 1764 01:34:42.810 --> 01:34:46.810 favorite Wade Keller podcasts and PWTorch Daily Casts? Just go 1765 01:34:46.869 --> 01:34:52.270 to patreon.com, search PWTorch, and subscribe to a VIP membership tier. 1766 01:34:52.289 --> 01:34:54.289 You get a seven-day free trial, by the way, to 1767 01:34:54.310 --> 01:34:55.729 kick the tires a bit and see if you like 1768 01:34:55.760 --> 01:34:58.380 the service. And then sync it with Spotify, and you 1769 01:34:58.399 --> 01:35:01.180 can listen to commercial-free versions of our free shows like 1770 01:35:01.199 --> 01:35:03.539 the Wade Keller Post Shows, the Wade Keller Podcast Flagship, 1771 01:35:03.899 --> 01:35:06.930 our flashbacks, and also the PWTorch DataCast lineup online. Again, 1772 01:35:07.170 --> 01:35:10.909 all commercial-free, a nice streamlined listening experience. But with third-tier membership, 1773 01:35:10.949 --> 01:35:14.329 you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything 1774 01:35:14.350 --> 01:35:16.069 with Rich and Wade, The Fix with Todd Martin that 1775 01:35:16.090 --> 01:35:18.369 I host with Todd every week, the Wade Keller News 1776 01:35:18.409 --> 01:35:23.630 Bulletin's post-pay-per-view roundtables, and an array of other VIP-exclusive podcasts 1777 01:35:23.649 --> 01:35:26.680 with different hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. 1778 01:35:27.060 --> 01:35:31.479 Go to Patreon and search PWTorch and subscribe and sync 1779 01:35:31.520 --> 01:35:34.260 it up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. 1780 01:35:34.710 --> 01:35:38.039 Either way works, go to Patreon and start your seven-day 1781 01:35:38.119 --> 01:35:41.380 free trial. If you're listening to us on the Apple 1782 01:35:41.399 --> 01:35:43.939 Podcast app, on Spotify, or any other app that allows 1783 01:35:43.979 --> 01:35:45.819 you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to 1784 01:35:45.840 --> 01:35:48.180 give us a five-star rating. It really helps us in 1785 01:35:48.220 --> 01:35:51.310 the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend us 1786 01:35:51.470 --> 01:35:53.329 to others. Just look for a place to rate the 1787 01:35:53.369 --> 01:35:55.829 show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening 1788 01:35:55.869 --> 01:35:58.289 to our shows, and please click that five-star rating. And 1789 01:35:58.310 --> 01:36:02.250 of course, thank you so much for listening. A PWTorch 1790 01:36:02.289 --> 01:36:04.569 VIP membership doesn't just give you ad-free access to these 1791 01:36:04.609 --> 01:36:07.510 shows and a ton of other VIP-exclusive podcasts throughout the week, 1792 01:36:07.710 --> 01:36:10.689 but you also gain access to our unmatched, vast library 1793 01:36:10.729 --> 01:36:14.029 of wrestling history, our contemporaneous week-to-week coverage through our Pro 1794 01:36:14.069 --> 01:36:17.069 Wrestling Torch weekly newsletters dating back to the late 1980s, 1795 01:36:17.439 --> 01:36:20.640 along with streaming and download access to hundreds of retro 1796 01:36:20.680 --> 01:36:23.520 radio shows from the 1990s, including some of my interviews 1797 01:36:23.939 --> 01:36:27.100 with wrestling's top newsmakers in the 90s. And also our 1798 01:36:27.319 --> 01:36:31.050 podcast library dating back to the year 2003. There's no larger, 1799 01:36:31.479 --> 01:36:35.489 longer-spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that that comes with 1800 01:36:35.529 --> 01:36:39.590 a PWTorch VIP membership. Now approaching 20 years of podcasting. 1801 01:36:39.810 --> 01:36:43.430 Go VIP and dive into our post-pay-per-view roundtables, our coverage 1802 01:36:43.470 --> 01:36:47.369 of some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top-name long-form interviews, 1803 01:36:47.829 --> 01:36:52.550 and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years. PWTorch.com 1804 01:36:52.649 --> 01:36:56.079 slash govip. We have a streamlined sign-up form, and you 1805 01:36:56.100 --> 01:36:58.380 can pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card 1806 01:36:58.500 --> 01:37:01.130 or debit card in one or two minutes. From right now, 1807 01:37:01.210 --> 01:37:04.829 you can be a VIP member and diving into our library, pwtorch.com 1808 01:37:04.890 --> 01:37:05.899 slash govip.