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about Cory Richards' experience in the mountains or reading Steve Magnus's book on Dooh Hard. Ksenija: I've done it on the case. Sue: things and and what he shares about toughness that I want to talk about as well. But I know that you've also coached a lot of athletes and you've coached professionals. And so I'd love to know from your point of view, Sania, do you see a difference in that headset? Are elite athletes just wired differently than the rest of us? Ksenija: They definitely are. There is a a Sue: How many? Ksenija: saying that I love. I don't know if it's international, if it's well known. It came from the father of one of my best friends. he actually won the Olympics in handball back in the fifties, I think. And he said the difference between a professional athlete and a common man is that the athlete can even when he cannot. Sue: Wow, wow, Ksenija: Yes. Sue: wow, that that is so fascinating. So how do you Ksenija: It sums it up. Sue: do you think that is coachable? Where does that come from? Ksenija: Coachable up to a point. We all have to learn to step out of our comfort zone. And there is another saying that I love very much and I find to be painfully true, and that is that good times create weak men. Weak men create terrible times. Terrible times create strong men who then create easy times, happy times, which then create Weak men and we go Sue: We none. Ksenija: in circles. There is a wonderful interview with Cristiano Ronaldo, who is probably the best or one of the two best football players, football not hand egg, to ever walk this earth, and one of the best athletes to ever walk this earth. And he was talking about his kids and what he expects from them when it comes to being elite athletes, and he said they're not hungry enough. Sue: So fascinating. Ksenija: He may be wrong because there are obviously children of famous and wealthy athletes who then went on to be famous and wealthy athletes. And when it comes to football, Paolo Maldini comes to mind. His father was an elite football player, his son is an elite football player, so that can happen. But in general, the whole game is about the infamous comfort zone. And I always tell my athletes, your success lives always outside of your comfort zone. And that is not only true for athletes, it's true for all of us. So it's you you your success is going to depend on how much discomfort you can endure. That can be intellectual discomfort, emotional discomfort, physical discomfort. And when it comes to athletes, elite athletes, it's all of the above. Sue: Yeah, and that that resonates with what Corey talks about in his book. He actually had an undiagnosed mental illness. and one of the things that he noticed was when he pushed himself through mountaineering and tried to do these crazy climbs. He's climbed, I think, all of the 8,000 meter peaks and many other peaks in his lifetime. And that suffering actually turned off kind of whatever the chatter was in his brain Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: that was the underlying kind of personality disorder that he had. And the that ability to push through beyond your comfort Ksenija: Right. Sue: zone, part of it for him was I I I think a an interesting combination of a little bit of self-hatred with a Ksenija: Mm-hmm. Sue: little bit of turning off this crazy brain, but then also You know, the beauty and the calm and the expansiveness of being in nature. And Ksenija: Look, today I seem to be keen on expressing myself in sayings. So it is what it is, guys, but maybe I don't know if you have this in your language. a healthy man has a million wishes. An ill man has only one wish to get better. When you are in an in extreme physical distress, such as the person climbing such extreme altitudes or pushing their body beyond its limits of endurance, it is pretty much the same as a person who is sick in the sense that this person has survival on their mind. And once Sue: Please. Ksenija: the survival mind kicks in, there is no room. For all the extra stuff, the extra fluff, the the the things that bug you generally. So that's why I think that saying about the healthy and the ill man applies to this kind of circumstance and why he felt that all the noise was simply going quiet when Sue: That Ksenija: he was in such a situation. Sue: I I think you're on to something there because from my experience, you know, moving from I never run at all, or really little, maybe for gym class by the time I was 40, and then I started running 5Ks and they became 10Ks and half marathons and marathons. And there but there's always a point in those where you think, you know, I just want to slow down. I just want to stop. I it this is really uncomfortable. And I resisted A lot of that activity because I just didn't want to be that uncomfortable and doesn't feel good at all. Ksenija: Doesn't feel good. Doesn't feel good at all. Sue: So I when I moved to Boston, I had the longest distance I'd run was a half marathon. And one of my girlfriends is a serious runner, and she was running the Boston Marathon that year. So I I was going to go cheer her on, but it turned out to be the worst weather in history. Like forty mile an hour headwinds, freezing rain, people literally getting hypothermic on the course. So I'm standing there thinking to myself, Joan is running this race. I I can duck in and get coffee at any time, but I'm at least gonna stand here and cheer her on. And that race ended up being one for the books. And they were the first American woman in over thirty years. to win at Deslinden was just tough as nails. And all of the elite male competitors dropped out of the race. And it was won by a Japanese government employee who was a part-time runner, serious Ksenija: This is Sue: athlete, obviously, but not an elite sponsored runner. And so I just got really curious about like why on earth Would somebody push themselves through this crazy wan rain and wind and cold and torture to do this? So of course I had to sign up to run

it. Ksenija: Just Sue: and I I ran it. Ksenija: The Boston marathon was the one that was target of a terrorist attack, right? Sue: Yes, and I'm gonna talk about that because the book that I referenced at the beginning, Steve Magnus's Do Hard Things, he debunks the whole myth of toughness. Let's call it that, where you know you show no weakness, you just gut through things, that let's call it veneer of Of toughness, that's what you think about with you know the big guys at the bar and that sort of thing. And he talks about people with this elite mindset being able to respond to situations, not react to situations. And with my training for the Boston Marathon, I ended up running with a guy named Sunder. And he had his First Boston, he had to call off because he literally had a heart attack while he was training for it. Ksenija: Wow. Sue: So then he came back the next year and w had trained for the race, was running it. Ksenija: A year after having a heart attack? Sue: Year after having a heart attack and that was the Boston Ksenija: He was running a marathon. Sue: Yes. And that was the Boston Marathon bombing year. So he did not get to finish. He got pulled off the course. He did not Ksenija: Did he get hurt by the attack? Sue: get hurt, thankfully. And my sister knows people who did because she she was living there when the bombing happened, but but Sunder did not. He didn't get to finish and he didn't understand what was going on because, of course, they weren't telling people on the course what was happening, they were just getting people out of there. Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: and so he through through these life changes of the heart attack and the Boston bombing, you he went deep into mindfulness. He had been in IT and he switched directions entirely, got a PhD in psychology, and he told me about. These different techniques. And they're all things that Steve Magnus identifies in his book about how to respond to situations, not just react. And I think when you're going through something very difficult, actually being able to be self-aware enough to step back and experience it, as opposed to just like have that fight or flight response is Ksenija: I don't Sue: probably one of the things I see with people who have really focused their minds on whatever it is they want to accomplish. So he shared things like Ksenija: know. Sue: if then. So he he sent me his if-then list and it literally had Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: things like, if this marathon is canceled, then I will do X, Y, and Z, because it was informed by his experiences of running it. Ksenija: Yes, we're Sue: And one of my favorites that I use all the time is trying to pull myself back into the situation when I I'm Ksenija: going to Sue: like, I want to quit, I'm going crazy. And he he just goes back to like literally, what are you experiencing in your body? What are five things you can see? What are four things you can hear? Ksenija: Very beautiful. Sue: What are three things you can smell, what are

two things you you can taste and and Ksenija: Yeah, Sue: just go through your senses to bring you into the moment. And so between Steve Magnus's headset Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: on this respond, don't react, and what Sunder learned from running the marathon, I feel like that's some of the key. To elite performance, that ability to be a bit outside your mind when you're going through something really difficult. And so again, I wanted, you know, I was trying to learn these techniques from books Ksenija: But Sue: and reading and experiences. I don't have Ksenija: I Sue: the the pleasure of having coached and met some of these Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: people, but from your work and what you've done with high performance coaching, do you see Almost this mindfulness angle being critical to succeeding at a very high level as well. Ksenija: Of course it is, but for some people it's something that comes spontaneously. Nobody teaches them how to do this. They never engage in learning these techniques, in improving these techniques, but somehow it's the way their mindset works. One example of that was the wonderful late Kobe Bryant. Sue: Mm. Ksenija: If you take Kobe Bryant's interviews and the things he said and the things he explained about how he performs, how he thinks, what he does, you can write a book about how to be an elite athlete and about performance coaching, and you're good to go. he simply had it. He had this mindset that was impeccable for that kind of success. There are many, many techniques that can be taught. And I had a wonderful couple of years teaching athletes to do that. I did it until I went to Paris. And then in Paris I was where I spoke another language and my French is not good enough. So I would work individually with some elite athletes, especially those who played in France, but I was no longer working for teams. And it's One thing that you notice when you're working with them, because I I would work for the football team and I'd go from the kids that are 14, 15 to the group that is the juniors that are 16, 17 to 18, and then the professionals that span from the juniors that just got there to the ones that are about to retire and are looking for what they're going to do afterwards. the best group to work with and where you can make the most impact is the 16, 17, 18. The younger ones, they're too infantile, they feel silly doing these exercises. You have to be willing to play, you have to be willing to be a bit foolish at times, to step out of your comfort zone in that sense, too. And they tend to either overdo it or to not do it at all. And you can't it's very hard to get the point to sink in. the adults depends on who you're working with. Some of them are very stiff because they're very important and they're already there, and they have a name and a last name, and people know who they are. So that takes a bit of tactic to to get there. But the 17, 16, 17, 18, they are amazing to work with. And I was most afraid of them because they're

teenagers, but no, they were willing to play, but old enough to understand and absorb this. And they turned out to be the best group to work with. I loved it. when it comes to what you said earlier about stepping out of your body, that is actually a technique that comes or that I have Acquired through my NLP training. NLP is neurolinguistic programming and it has nothing to do with IT programming. It is just, in my opinion, an unfortunate term that was chosen for this discipline, where you learn to rewire your way of thinking. And if it were up to me, every teacher, every coach, everyone who works with young people would have to undergo. at least the NLP practitioner training, if not the master training, and then the coaching academy, because it is splendid for communication, for understanding how different people communicate, for understanding why some kids take a moment to respond to your question. And that doesn't mean that they didn't study, they don't know, they are just kinesthetic and it takes them a moment. So there are many, many things that are Phenomenal from NLP, and it's the basis of everything I later learned how to do. So one technique I learned in NLP that I taught my athlete is association dissociation. So when we think or when we consider our memories, we can do that in two different ways. One is association, which means that you put yourself in your mind in that situation and you live it. As though you were in that situation right now. So, for instance, if I'm remembering how I went to the beach, I would see the beach through my eyes, I would hear the sounds through my ears, I would feel everything there is to feel and smell everything there is to smell. That is association. When we are associated, we feel everything much more powerfully. We feel it directly. So if there is a painful memory from your past and you view it through an associated state, you're going to feel it much more strongly. Then there is the dissociated way, which is when you step out of yourself. And when you think of this situation, you can see yourself as if you were watching a movie with yourself in it. And when you dissociate, the feelings are much weaker, the sensations are much weaker. So what I do is teach my athletes in certain moments to dissociate, especially athletes who have a hard time controlling their temper when they're on the pitch. So when a situation arises where they're losing their temper, I teach them how to step out of themselves for a couple of seconds that's all it takes and look at the situation with themselves in there. Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: It always without fail looks a lot less horrible than it does when you're seeing it from an associated state. So when you're in a mountain and you are starting to feel terrible and to feel like your body is failing you and you can no longer endure One thing you can do is to dis dissociate, to see yourself from the outside in that situation. And once you gain that distance, it becomes simpler to

make the right decisions that are not going to come from a strong emotional core, if that makes sense. Sue: makes a ton of sense. That is so fascinating to me because the it actually makes sense on both dimensions when you were talking about the associative version of it. It tied directly to what Sunder was coaching me on on running, which is like you experience these elements that are going on around you. But The dissociative is definitely something I'm thinking about. How could that work for me on the mountains? Because you you can get two into your head. And clearly you've seen athletes do that. And almost you know, we've we've all seen Ksenija: Mm-hmm. Sue: athletes on the big stage kind of tear themselves down in a way that's you derailed their entire career. Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: But as you've been talking about this, it makes me understand Cory Richards a bit better in his book because the book starts with him in an avalanche, like literally being buried in an avalanche. And he he goes through what's Ksenija: Yeah, Sue: going on in his mind, but then he does manage to to get his hands free and get his face clear. And the first thing he does is take a picture of himself. So you can see, you know, his his face covered in snow, this dazed expression. Ksenija: A very famous picture, yeah. I've actually seen that picture before. Yes. Yes. Sue: Yeah. So one of the fascinating things about him is that he's also a prize-winning National Geographic photographer. And the I s I just experienced that photo in a different way having this conversation because I think taking the photo of himself is dissociation. Ksenija: Was his way of dissociating. Yeah. Sue: Which is absolutely intriguing because here he's going through what he thinks is his death, literally. And he talks you through what's the, you know, the reels that are playing in his mind and what he's thinking about at this moment, where he believes that he is buried and going to die, Ksenija: Agreed. Sue: and his two friends are going to die as well. And so this this photo is him just coming out. Of that experience. And when you were talking about that ability to see yourself remotely, now I can you experience his realization in a different way because I think by taking that photograph, he actually snapped himself Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: out of the panic and was able, yeah, able Ksenija: It's possible. Yeah. Sue: to then focus on I'm alive, I'm here, Ksenija: Mm-hmm. Sue: and and now I can do the things I need to do. to both unbury myself, get my friends out of this situation, and and move forward. so that that's really fascinating. Ksenija: I'm unsure whether that was dissociation or another thing, another technique called pattern interrupt. Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: if you've ever watched Novak Djokovic play tennis, he was a student of Andrea Gassi, who was a student of Tony Robbins. And Tony Robbins teaches, look, you may not like his politics, you may not like how he presents himself, whatever might bother you about any given person, but he is a phenomenal coach and very, very good at what he does. And one thing Tony teaches is how to do a pattern interrupt and that is super important in sports and in life. I tend to do it when somebody loses their mind in a situation and starts freaking out or screaming or is so angry. Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: And you can do it in a positive way, you can do it in an irritating way, but it's something that works magically. And Novak Djokovic is very good at doing pattern interrupt. So what he does is when things are going poorly, he has certain things that will create a change in him. So for instance, he was losing, I think at Roland Garros, but I'm not sure. Nor does it matter quite badly the whole game. And he asked for a bathroom break, which I think that once a tennis match goes for a certain length, you're allowed to do something like that. I know that when they asked him later what did you do, he said I went to the bathroom, I changed my shirt, I washed my face and my and my the top of my body, my chest, changed my shirt and just you know Took a moment. And that thing of changing his shirt and washing his face and his chest, that is a pattern interrupt. That Sue: Hmm. Ksenija: is something that changes your state. That is why people, when they have an outburst, will often say, I'm going for a walk or I'm going to go take a shower. Because those are pattern interrupts that change your state. And that's something that's very good to be able to do when you are in a situation that doesn't have to be sports, it doesn't have to be Sue: Right. Ksenija: extreme climbing, it can be anything in life. So for instance, if a person is screaming at you and they are completely having a meltdown, one pattern interrupt can be, I'm sorry, what was that? I didn't hear you. And then they go, All right, and they repeat. But the tension has already gone from here to here. Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: It sounds silly and with coaching and Sue: No. Yeah. Ksenija: NLP, many things sound silly, but and they sound common sense, but you've never actually added one plus one equals two and done it. Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: And once it becomes part of your way of thinking and doing, it does wonders. Now, when you undergo these trainings, For instance, my athletes worked with me all season and I would work with them collectively and I would work with them individually. I would teach them 200 different things. They would retain four or five that would become part of their daily habit. But those four or five would change everything. So you will learn many, but you will not absorb all because you can't constantly be thinking about all of that. And People think when they want to achieve a change, whether it's in sports or in any other area of life, it can be because you want to lose weight or you want to quit a bad habit or you want to become more productive, anything else in your life. People think that in order to achieve such big change, they have to

change themselves massively. But usually it's a matter of moving one degree left or right and everything shifts. My job as a coach is to get you to one that one degree left or right. And that's true in the mountain, that's true on the pitch, it's true in the office, Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: in the marriage, and any other area of life. Sue: and what what's interesting about what you just talked about is sometimes these techniques are to interrupt, you know, something that's bad, something that's disruptive. But one of the beautiful things with watching these incredible athletic performances is that ability Kobe Bryant comes to mind for me on this of an athlete to get in that flow state. So not only are you tackling these really difficult moments like you explained with Djokovic and trying to get back into the game, but you also have these experiences of sheer wonder watching some of these athletes perform because they literally are in the the flow state. And one of the other books as I I did my my deep burrow into elite mindsets was Ksenija: Mm-hmm. Sue: Sissent Malha Mihali's book on flow. Because as an a new runner, you start hearing about Ksenija: I read it. Sue: runners high. And you think, okay, I'm gonna I I I'm gonna try to run long enough and hard enough to actually feel this thing that people say is amazing about running. And A lot of people obviously have referenced his book and paraphrased his work and and used it in their own work. But you know, when he talks about this this process of getting just out of your comfort zone, you know, just beyond what you're capable of, but not so far beyond it that you're destined for failure. So it has to be really hard work for you. But still achievable to even have that ability to get into a flow, a flow state. And so also with the the kind of beautiful suffering, maybe the beautiful part of that beautiful suffering are these moments of flow that Ksenija: Yeah, you are Sue: also come when you're doing something intense. And you really? What do what do you see on that? Ksenija: It doesn't have to be though. It doesn't have to be intense. It doesn't have to be intense. You can get into flow state when you're creating, when you're writing, when you're reading, when you're doing anything that's pleasurable, but at the same time that is stimulating either intellectually or physically. It doesn't have to be physical stimulation. It's just that moment when everything clicks in place and you know exactly what to do. And you go and you do it. And it it it reminds me of that scene in The Matrix when Neo, the first Matrix, when Neo finally Sue: Yeah, yeah. Ksenija: figures it out and then it becomes super easy. He just goes like this. That's flow. and and it can happen from just a state of pure relaxation in which you are. being fully yourself and creating with ease, but it can also be from a state when you finally cross that threshold that you couldn't cross earlier and and it just goes. There it is. It makes sense. Now I know what to do. So it can be either or and it's beautiful. And I think we've all felt it at some point, doing something. Sue: Yeah. So I've I've definitely felt it. I would say the description of effortless effort makes a little more sense to me. It's never been for me at least a purely effortless endeavor. it can happen, it has happened to me in doing art. it I'm not a writer like you, so that that's not something Ksenija: It can happen when you cook. Sue: that yes. And I but I would say for me, it seems to be like I'm better than a beginner at something. I've gotten past that initial, like you have to think through every single thing you're doing. it I've never experienced it when I'm new to something. but I don't feel like I have to have full mastery to have Ksenija: Exactly. Sue: experienced it either. and Ksenija: It's that moment when everything goes quiet. And you just have that one task, that one goal, and it all makes sense, and it's coming. It's like you're the master of the situation. Whatever Sue: And I Ksenija: level that's happening at. And of course, when this author is talking about elite athletes, he's talking from that perspective. But flow is not only reserved for elite athletes. That's what I'm trying to say. Thank God. Sue: I I I agree. Yeah. Yeah, Ksenija: Thank God. Sue: thank God. Otherwise the rest of us would really be in trouble here. Ksenija: We wouldn't miss out on something beautiful. Sue: yes, yes. And and so for for me back Corey Richards is such an interesting example because he's such a high caliber athlete and it clearly experiences Beautiful moments in the mountains, these moments of clarity and purity, but also through his art. And it that is such an interesting combination for me because doing something heavily athletic just feels and experiences so differently for me than turning my artistic brain on. But it does feel like they intersect in. A way that that these moments are so few, at least for me, I wish there were more, that they really crystallize in my mind and they really stand out. and he talks about his photography and where he knows the minute Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: he took a really outstanding photograph. And Ksenija: Yes. Of course. Of course he does. Sue: it you know, he takes obviously many, many, many, many photographs. But it's not just the odds are in his favor the more photos he takes. It it's like these crystalline moments when it's a young girl's face or the the sunrise hitting the mountain and a fellow climber in just the perfect way that you know the whole scene is illuminated in an absolutely magical light. and so the the I'm I find it intriguing that you have somebody who's such a a great athlete and a great artist all in one package. I feel like most of us are lucky to have if Ksenija: If we get one thing. Sue: if we get one one of those, certainly, certainly not both of those. But again, back to your coaching work. Did you encourage you were you working with people where

you encouraged them to try to experience different things as a way of locking in on this? Is it I know, I would imagine with athletes, it's so important to try to put yourself in this flow state, or how do you how do you get there? And so I'm always trying on my own little experiments of like what are the what are the things that Put me closer to that flow state. Did you find ways to actually coach people into it? Like, can you help Sue have more flow state experiences in her life? Ksenija: I could help you, but in order to help you, it would need to be a one-on-one thing where I would need to understand what happens when you're up there, how Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: you think, what happens when things get tough, where your mind goes, etc. etc. So it's not I believe that the flow state is something that comes on its own once you manage to get into a certain mindset and to a certain level of mastery, which doesn't have to be that you're the best in the world at doing this, but that you are at a level where you can feel like you're in the right place. So if you know that you're never going to play for Real Madrid, but you're fine playing in Podgorica, but you want to be the best there and you know which level you need to to reach, that's perfectly fine. Now what I try to avoid when working with athletes is having a one size fit all recipe for almost anything. There are some things that are one size fit all, association, dissociation, pattern interrupt, some anchoring, etc. But the problem sometimes would be so silly. So for instance, you have three different pre-game mindsets with athletes. You have athletes who get very nervous and very negative before a game. So they they they are underconfident and they say, my god, I can't do anything, we're going to lose this, I'm going to mess up, it's gonna be terrible. Then you have those who are who become overconfident and they start going, We're gonna kill this, we're gonna be great. They go into the opposite direction and then This energy that they have is not articulated well. The first one can't access his energy. The second one cannot articulate his energy. And then you have the well-balanced one. So what happens is they go online, they go on TikTok, on Instagram, etc., and they watch these videos from performance coaches who tell them before a game, you need to get yourself in the right mindset. You have to relax. You have to listen to relaxing music. You have to be quiet, have some peace and quiet. The problem is that that works for the second guy. But my first guy, when he listens to depressing music and quiet music, he goes down even more. So sometimes, like I said, people think that they have to do God knows what, and it's usually this little thing. So Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: for one guy, it was just a matter of changing his playlist, pre-game playlist, because Sue: Seriously? Ksenija: Yes, because he was listening to these songs where like the guy lost his love and he's crying day and night and all

this. And and I I was just saying no. So we went to Welcome to the Jungle by Guns N' Rose, it's just all high energy, and he would get hyped up, and that would work wonders for him. So it's little tricks. Like I said, they can sometimes sound super silly. Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: Other times they can be really, really complex techniques, but you have to know who you're working with Sue: Yeah Ksenija: before you start to push these things on them. Because not everything works on everyone. And there is a lot when it comes to sports, but also other things, which energy level you're at at that moment. And if your energy level is here and I make you listen to depressing music, it's going to go here. But to be good in a game, I need you here. Not over there because then you can't articulate your energy, but I need you here, not down there. Sue: That's so fascinating because the Ksenija: It is. It is. It's a lot of fun. And and it's really interesting. And and when you see them, it has a lot to do with posture, with what you're thinking, Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: what you're saying to yourself. And I I would love it when when I'd watch a g my players play a football game and you see he's going there with his shoulders down and he goes up like this, which was one of the techniques. And you see him start running, and I'm like, Yeah, that worked well. We anchored that one well. Sue: What's so cool about it is it's so accessible. Like the the these things that you're talking Ksenija: It really is. Sue: about are they're not complicated. They're not hundreds of hours in the gym. They they're Ksenija: Yep. That's the beauty of NLP. You go to lesson one, you will go home knowing already what to do, and you will already be able to teach what you learned to other people and to be excellent at it. Sue: That's that's crazy. Now you've got me thinking about Ksenija: It's amazing. Sue: what's what's my pre-Mountain playlist? Well I'll have to start working on that. But it does it highlights Ksenija: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's important. It's important. Sue: this incredible power that your brain has and the the brain body connection that I think in in the US at least most people dissociate the you know, the activity of the brain and the science of the brain and all of that from physical ailments and physical capability. Ksenija: Hm. Sue: and it feels like that's been coming together more in West let's call it Western medicine, Western thinking. I think it's always Ksenija: yeah, the holistic approach for sure. Sue: been there in Eastern philosophy. But one of one of the books that I'd heard about for forever and actually ha didn't read for quite a long time because I already felt like I knew what the book was about because it was so much in the popular culture was Carol Dweck's mindset. She's a a Stanford professor and Ksenija: think I read that. I'm not sure. Okay. I Sue: So she does research in in kind of what how how do you approach your mindset and the power of what's going

on in your head. And I was absolutely floored. So if if you haven't read the book, or if somebody listening to this hasn't read the book and they think they know what it's about because This term growth mindset has kind of gone everywhere, and people talk about the fixed mindset and the growth mindset, and that came from her research. and so I thought I knew what it was about. And if you think you know what it's about, but you haven't read the book, I'd highly encourage people to actually read her book Ksenija: Mm. Sue: because the examples that she gives literally will blow your mind. One of my favorites. is of of how powerful that headset shift is when doing any activity is she Ksenija: Thanks. Sue: talks about hotel maids. They did a study on hotel maids and took all sorts of physical you know physical attributes Ksenija: Yeah, yeah. Sue: of of these women, you know, what their blood pressure was, what their cholesterol was, BMI, all of these different physical Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: parameters. And they took one group of hotel maids and they told them that the work they do is exercise. When they're changing sheets, when they're vacuuming floors, when they're doing the housework at a hotel, they're actually burning calories and doing exercise. Ksenija: Yeah, exactly. Sue: And in a three-month interval, I think it was, they literally registered. Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: Meaningfully statistically significant differences in the health measurements of these women. Just the literally telling somebody that this is exercise changed their body, changed their body. Ksenija: The whole paradigm. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sue: And there are other examples of the mindset changes when they were talking about nutrition. So they had. Shakes had a certain amount of calories and a certain composition, and another one that was different, and literally the Ksenija: Yeah, Sue: same thing, you know, could register just by telling people this was more nutritious than that, you know, could register physical differences. And it on it honestly didn't seem to matter whether it was a health metric or a performance metric, a test metric, a stress metric. You the power of the mind is so astonishing to literally change who you know who we are, what you know, what is going on in us. I Ksenija: yeah. yeah. Sue: I was mind blown with this. Ksenija: There was an incredible study. Don't ask me who did it. I don't remember. I know it was a university in America, I think. so they went to a shopping mall Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: and the study, the trick, let's say, took place in two phases. The first phase you would arrive at the shopping mall and they would notice you and what they would do is they would approach you or I don't know if it was a pregnant woman or somebody would approach you who had their hands full and would ask you, can you please just hold this coffee cup for me for like a second just so I can, I don't know, tie my shoes, pick up my kid, whatever it was, and people would take it.

then you would move on and they would stop you at a stand. They it would all be branded with this university's name. The people would be wearing the shirt so you would know it was legit and they would ask you if you would submit yourself for it to this test and they would give you $20 if you did it. The test required you to read a passage that was, I think, a story about somebody, and then you would answer a few questions about the protagonist of this story, how you viewed this person. Now, in the first phase, there was a variant. Some people were given warm coffee to hold, and others cold coffee to hold. Apparently, what happened was that those who held The warm coffee overwhelmingly judged the protagonist of the story as warm, open, etc, and the other ones as cold and unlikable. Sue: No. Ksenija: I remember this from Coaching Academy. I never verified it. So if it's a bullshit story, I am bullshitting you because I was bullshit. Or bullshit. Well, anyway, bullshit. Sue: Bullshot. Ksenija: But yes, that was that was apparently a study that happened. It's incredible. Sue: Unbelievable. Ksenija: Yeah, it's incredible. And when it comes to the the the premise of the episode, what you said before. The psychopath and and who puts themselves through this kind of pain. There is actually again a coaching explanation, and that's it's something called the psychology of basic human needs. I don't know if you ever heard of it. Sue: No, I haven't. Ksenija: We learned this at Robins Madonna's coaching. So I did the Robins Madonna's Coaching Academy, NLP Coaching Academy, and Barça, Barcelona, Barça for sports psychology, school for sports psychology. And the psychology of basic human needs says that there are six basic human needs that are universal that everybody has, and we all constantly try to fulfill them. Everything we do in life, we do to fulfill. One or more of these needs. the first is safety, security, reliability. The second is variety, the third is love, attachment, connection. the fourth is significance, then we have, and these four without them, we cannot survive. And then we have Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: two of them that fulfill our life. One is improvement, we constantly need to improve for the better or for worse, and the last one is contribution. To give something beyond ourselves. And each human need you can satisfy in a positive, neutral, or negative way. So, for instance, when it comes to security, security for you can be that you cannot step out of your house and you need to be inside all the time, or it can just be that you know you have a paycheck every month, or it can be that you know that. You have a million in the bank, and if you don't have a million in the bank, you are going to panic, or it can be that you don't have any money, but you don't have to put work in, you just want to be relaxed in life and not have to step out of your comfort zone. So that's security, and security is the one that screws us over the most time. Then the second Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: one is insecurity or variety. We need variety. So if you started crying desperately. And I left you to your own devices and did nothing to help you. After a while, you would have to stop. You would have to change because the body no the body needs the Sue: You can't cry yourself to death despite all the the heartbreak books. Ksenija: variety. The need for variety, it's biological too. It simply kicks in after a while. And again, it's a matter of what variety is for any other person and how much variety they need. So for somebody. It's enough variety to simply watch a different show every night. Somebody else needs to jump with a parachute or climb a mountain. Sue: Interesting. Ksenija: Then you have significance and of course connection and the others, but let's talk about these three significance. How to be different, how to be important. Again, positive, neutral, negative. You can be significant because you are the best in the world at what you do, or the best in your little town, or you are the best looking, or you are the wealthiest, or in the opposite direction, because you have a hundred thousand tattoos and piercings, and whenever people see you, they you know, they flinch for a moment, or because you have put on the biggest breasts in the world or the biggest mouth in the world, or because you are a criminal and you do terrible things. So if I pull a gun on you, I don't have to have a college degree, I don't have to be educated, I don't have to be pretty. In that moment I'm going to become the most important person in your life. Sue: Hmm. Ksenija: For a little while. the Easiest way to get significance is to throw a temper tantrum and do something terrible. Now, the fun part is that when a behavior, a habit, a situation, or a person fulfills three or more of our basic needs, we become hooked. So now we get to the person that goes and does extreme sports, extreme climbing. So security reliability. For them, a secure way to get all of their needs fulfilled. It's something they can rely on, they know what to do. Even though it's risky, they know they can count on that feeling, that experience, and whatever entails Sue: Mm-hmm. Ksenija: mountain climbing, for instance. Variety, obviously, obviously. Sue: Obviously. And that one's different every hour. Ksenija: First of all, you feel important because you are doing this thing. You are doing something that most other people cannot do. Somebody's worried sick about you. How significant are you then? People admire you so much for what you do. How significant are you? Somebody maybe attacks you, says you're a psychopath. How significant are you? Right? Then there is connection. Obviously, people with whom you climb. People who share your passion, but also those people who are concerned about you and those people who cheer you on. Then we have the last two. One is advancement, getting better. So every time you climb, you push further, you get better, you improve. That's

something. And then finally, contribution. I'm contributing something to this world, I'm leaving a mark in this world, I'm helping maybe younger people who want to do this, etc. etc. So it's a full-blown addiction that is. Obvious because all six or at least five if you're not contributing anything, at least five of your six basic human needs are being fulfilled by this activity. Sue: I'm starting to think that instead of reading books about elite mindsets, I should go back to school and start studying psychology. I I've learned so much more from your balance, let's say, of like Ksenija: I'm not a psychologist. Sue: but the what you've studied with the coaching and the psychological approaches. Yep. Yeah, the but that Ksenija: That's coaching. Yeah. NLP and coaching. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. NLP, Tony, and then the Barca thing, which was more institutional, but to me NLP communication techniques and NLP the basics, but then it was all Tony. Tony Tony Tony. Sue: The you know, for for me, the experience of listening to you talk about some of these frameworks and elements and insights really helps me think differently about some of the autobiography autobiographies that I've read about these different athletes because obviously they're presenting their side of the story and even people like Steve Magnus, who's a a performance coach, you know, he has his framework and and he believes very deeply that people sh gr grow. And you talked about that edge of where your capabilities are and that growth only happens on these edges when you push through, but that it needs to come from Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: a place of authenticity that the you know, this facade Ksenija: Yeah. Yeah. Sue: of gross growth is quite brittle. And what you just shared about Ksenija: Well even right now. Sue: the positive and negative elements of these different attributes and these different human needs really ties to what he was talking about on I think helping people disarm the negative sides of why they do these things and arm them with a more positive view. Of how how to use these techniques, how to drop the facade, how to respond and not react, these different pillars that he constructs in the book. but for me, it's it's it's been quite insightful to turn that into not just, you know, for me, what can often be a very intellectualized Ksenija: I think that's where it's repeating my notes yet. Sue: experience of reading about these these athletes, reading about these techniques. Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: But what you're bringing is a much richer perspective about what's going what's going on inside people, why are they motivated to do this or not do this? And how how does just that basic humanness tie to why we do these things or or why we don't, why we opt out of them, why we're too afraid, why we take life in a different direction. Ksenija: You're making me miss the locker room and the coach's bench. I have sworn off like ever doing that again because it's so I I went from theater production to a football locker room. So it was quite a big shock. Sue: Are you kidding me? I did not know that. Ksenija: Yeah, it was a shock for me. Yeah, in twenty twenty it was COVID and and things were paralyzed. And my friend who owned a football club, he said, Listen, do these techniques, like these things that you do in coaching, does that work with football players? 'Cause my team sucks right now. And Sue: Yeah. Ksenija: I said, Yeah, it should, you know. Would you try? Sure. And there you go. I was hooked hooked. And so yeah, and then for the next two years that was all I did. I I took a break from everything because the the circumstances were such that that I couldn't work in in the arts here in that moment and I always need to be doing something. I need to be in motion. So that was what I came up with. And people were shocked because suddenly they were used to me giving interviews and and teaching and doing these things, and suddenly there I am dressed in the in the football team's gear and talking about sports performan performances and I was the first woman in it was so funny because I was the first woman to ever publish a novel in Montenegro and then I was the first woman to work in football to be in a football coaching staff in Montenegro. So I kept saying I'm a trail brave blazer, you know. Sue: You absolutely are. but one of the things this conversation has given me a lot of hope is where we started with are are these athletes just wired differently? And you answered yes. But what I've also Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: gotten from this conversation is some of these things are very universal and they're very trainable. And maybe I will never be a Corey Richards climbing eight thousand meter peaks. I I don't think I want to be that cold to be honest or that miserable even for personal growth but that you can take these these elements and translate them from the art studio the the writing process Ksenija: yeah. Sue: to these extremes of athletic performance and and that's just magical for me. Ksenija: Yeah. I was never able to apply these things to sport. Actually, when I was young, I was a runner. And back in America I got a full scholarship to a university in America as a runner. I bet you didn't know this, but Sue: I did not do this. Ksenija: nope. I did not have the mindset of an elite athlete. And I somehow knew that already. So I just switched that to an academical scholarship because I had good grades and then decided to just go back to Italy and study there. I am as you have noticed, I'm just a European girl. You know, America was not cut out for me. I would love to go Sue: Not your place. Ksenija: to visit, but lifestyle wise, mentality wise, I am just full blown European and anywhere in Europe is good, but yeah. So I I came back, I came back to Europe to study. But I I always tell parents, because often parents get in touch with me. Could you speak to my kid? My kid is 14, 15, he was the most talented. The coaches said he's so

talented, but he doesn't have there's something with his motivation or something with his confidence. And I always tell them, look, I can pump up his confidence, but If he is flailing now, that's a sign because you know they will train for years and they will work hard, but then there is an age when they are made or broken, and it often is a matter of what's up here, and I can make you more confident, more confident, but when it comes to strength, if you don't find that yourself. Sue: Yeah, nobody can coach that into Ksenija: very hard. Sue: you. Ksenija: It's very hard. I had I had a kid who I love him so much. He actually inspired me to write Johnny in in Fathers Before let me model it. Fathers Before Sons. So he inspired me to to to write Johnny and I remember he had one of the the hardest injuries that a football player can have, which is tearing the front cross ligaments. And it wasn't just that, there was something else. And when they come back from an injury like that, the first thing you look at is what they do in a duel when they come back from that. Sue: Mm. Ksenija: And if they recoil, then I need to intervene, I need to work with them, and that is one of the hardest things for me to work with. And this kid went five times stronger when he came back. Sue: Wow. Wow. Ksenija: And I was like, you have you have the mindset. Let's hope your body follows suit. Unfortunately, didn't he get injured a lot, but he and and that is not even his fault. There's a lot of fault with how kids are trained here. They are overtrained very young and then many injuries happen that wouldn't happen otherwise. And and but that's a whole other story for another time. But yeah, he he definitely had the head. And a very elegant head football-wise. That's why I love football so much because it it takes it can be so elegant. It's why I loved Andri Shevchenko, the Ukrainian Milan player back in the 90s and early 2000s, because he was such a gentleman on on the pitch. But anyway. Sue: Beautiful. Beautiful. Well you you're you're working on me to start enjoying football, aka soccer, even more. Ksenija: my god, don't use that word. Sue: Well if you're going to use hand egg, I'm gonna use soccer. Ksenija: It is handtag, I mean you guys could have called it American rugby, it would have made some sense, a little more sense, but it's not a freaking ball and you're not using feet. You use them for like 0.01% of the game. Th our game, the worldwide game, is played with d don't get me started, Sue. Sue: It's the easiest way to derail Senya is to get her talking about soccer. Ksenija: Yeah, you can trigger me with this stuff like this. I'm gonna do a pattern interrupt, so Did you recognize my pattern interrupt? Sue: Perfect. Perfect. With with that, it's probably a No, I did not. What to the there we go. That's a snappy one. Ha ha. But with with that, Ksenija: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Sue: I think probably a good time to to wrap things up. So I thought I would just share Ksenija: Yes. Sue: the dedication that Corey wrote in in the book. because he said, for Sue, here's here's to the journey. and the big marvelous mess. And that just to me summed it up because what I'm loving Ksenija: Jealous. Sue: about this process is the the whole journey itself. I learn every episode. and for me translating that onto the mountain, you know, I I now have new strategies that I Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: didn't have before. But also it's messy. And I think reminding myself that it's it's gonna feel like crap at some point. And and now I have an interrupt strategy. So I have new ways of dealing with that. And a coach. We got free coaching for an hour here. Ksenija: Yes, you do. And a coach that's there. You just text me and I'm there. No, I'm jealous because the only internationally famous author whose dedication I have on the No, actually I have two. But one that it's stellar famous is Mario Vargas Losa, the late Vargas Losa, Nobel Prize winner. And my dedication doesn't say anything similar to yours. Mine says, Dear Xenia, sorry for losing your Mont Blanc pen. I was his moderator when he came to Montenegro and he his pen ran out and I lent him mine, unfortunately, which was a graduation gift. Sue: no. Ksenija: And he signed and then he just left it there and someone stole it because they thought it was his, so why not have a keepsake? And so Sue: And then Ksenija: that's my dedication from a famous author. For sure. Yeah. Sue: Memorable. Definitely memorable. Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: All right. So speaking of authors, what are you reading now and what do you recommend? Ksenija: I'm I'm still reading a spool of blue thread because we are recording this quite close because once we're done recording, you are going to the airport and you're going to Ecuador. While I'm going to the vet because the kitty, our former co-host kitty, whose name is Billy by the way, because I'm quite sure it's a male, but if it's not, we'll just do IE and it's gonna be Billy, a female. Right now it's Billy the kid. And there's some icky stuff coming out of him, so we have to go to the vet. Yeah. Yeah. Sue: no. I well Ksenija: I thought I'd seen it all, but apparently not. So there you go. Yeah. But a spool Sue: Not yet. Yeah. They they do. Ksenija: of blue thread, I'm really enjoying it. it's so much fun. It's well written. I think it was runner up for a big prize. I'm not sure. I'd never heard of it before. And it's it's the story of a Middle class family. the dialogues are hilarious, but it deals with some interesting things and I think that people would enjoy it very much. Sue: Excellent. Well, you convinced me last episode to download that. So that is coming with me on my Kindle to the mountains because it's gonna take me a long time to get to Ecuador. Same book, which will be Ksenija: So we're finally going to talk about the same book. Okay. That's gonna happen. Sue: after you know, 12 plus, 13 plus episodes, we'll finally have one where we talk about the same book. So that'll be something new and different for us. Ksenija: Yes, and I have to tell you something. I have a confession to make. Like when we started doing this, when I called you and said, Would you like to do this? And you shocked me by saying yes, absolutely. I was wondering how it was going to go, how we were going to like it, if it was going to be enjoyable, especially for you because you've never done television and maybe you wouldn't feel comfortable. I have come to really look forward to these episodes and to love you that much more. than I did before and I already loved you quite a bit. So felt that I had to put that out there. Well Sue: Yeah, we Ksenija: you're welcome. And with that said, guys, please Sue: Yeah, with that said, guys, I have my book recommend. So staying Ksenija: Yeah. Sue: with Sue's nonfiction chapter today, I have the Book of Joy, which fits beautifully with what you just said. so this is the Dalai Lama and the recently passed Bishop Bishop Desmond Tutu. And I didn't know that they were friends. but one of the most beautiful things About this book for me, and and that I always marvel at with people who are deeply spiritual, is they are some of the most joyful people I've ever met in my life. Like they just don't take life that seriously for some reason. And I am so attracted to that energy and just want to be around that. And so this for me is a beautiful. book about two amazing human beings who have such a positive impact on this world. And it it but it just reminds me that you don't have to take life that seriously. And sometimes life feels really heavy and things feel really hard and we spent a lot of time talking about how you deal with hard things. This book is the the balance for that for me. It reminds you that life has joy and life can be light and life can be humorous and life can be fun. And that for me is one of my joys of doing this wonderful podcast with you, Sanya, is it brings learning, joy, challenge, just all the things, probably all of those six things that you talked about get hit on with these episodes. Ksenija: Hey, but you didn't say I love you too. I'm not signing off until you say it. Sue: I I love you so much. Perfect. Ksenija: There we go. Now we can sign off. Excuse me very much, I wanna hear it. Sue: Yeah, as you should, as you should. Ksenija: There you go. Guys, hit like, hit subscribe, follow us wherever you are. What? Sue: Hit love. I said hit love us. Ksenija: Kid love us. Yeah, yeah, we're all about love today. And I we will see you next Saturday with another episode of Transatlantic Bookmarks. Bye. Sue: Bye.