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always a great idea. ⁓ So you over, ⁓ you could overly collaborative to the fact that there isn't ⁓ one clear of the meeting who's steering the thing in a direction. Christine Courtney: Mmm. Tom: And therefore, everybody's, kind of goes off on a different direction and no one sort of steers it back or says, okay, we'll talk about that later. And so you're just sitting there going, this has nothing to do with me anymore. Like even the agenda was clear. I understand why I'm here, but this guy over here is just talking about a story that has nothing to do with this and no one's stopping this. Like, come on. ⁓ So you could even have a great agenda and it just gets derailed because there's no leader. Christine Courtney: Mm. Tom: being decisive in the moment to steer the things towards the result that we're there for. Often you'll hear the complaint after a meeting, everybody kind of, you know, away from whoever was leading it says, could have been an email. ⁓ know, that's, that's a common sort of side comment. You'll hear people say meetings that basically ⁓ could been a different means of communication, totally did not have to bring everybody together to get the outcome. Or the outcome wasn't clear. Christine Courtney: Mm-hmm. Tom: We walk away going, I don't know what I need to do differently now than I was doing when I came into the meeting. that anybody needs to do differently. was just some information sharing. ⁓ Another pet peeve is ⁓ folks are showing up late and the leader's going, well, we want to wait till everybody's here and you're just sitting there for 10 minutes and you showed up on time or even early and your time isn't being respected because one person's showing up late. But big one for me, honestly, Christine Courtney: Okay. Tom: is when I have a meeting, maybe I have a day packed full of meetings and conversations, and so I have one budding right up, maybe there's a five minute gap between when this is supposed to end and the next one, and now you've gone over by a half hour. So I'm in your meeting texting my next meeting saying, I am so sorry, I'm gonna be late. And that's embarrassing for me, for my next person now that I have to be late for, it's inconvenient for them. So there's a myriad of things that go wrong in meetings. could have a whole podcast just about that. Christine Courtney: Mm-hmm. Anyway, we could, we just might have that. But what do you think the biggest mistake, and I know there's a lot of them, but let's just name a couple. What's the biggest mistake leaders make when they walk into the meeting? Tom: but those are some of the top ones for me. Well, I mean, I don't know the data on this specifically. You know, walking into a meeting ⁓ ⁓ right in without having any kind of a check-in, I think it's good to have some sort of check-in to bring everybody together and unify people in a meeting. Not a 20 minute out of ⁓ your minute meeting, but five minutes, you check in with people. Christine Courtney: Mm-hmm. Tom: Unify and then start your, and then have your meeting as long as that's also part of the agenda. ⁓ Because everybody's going to be scattered and wherever they were a second ago, that's where they still are. So you try to get everybody into the meeting together by doing some sort of check-in I think is key. Christine Courtney: Yeah. You know what you just made me think of, which I think I can relate to for myself, is that it is also about taking that little bit of emotional check-in with myself if I'm the leader of the meeting before I walk into that room. like you said, we are stacked up meeting to meeting to meeting. So oftentimes I have been, ⁓ fallen victim to this. Tom: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Christine Courtney: is that I will bring the energy from, or my frustration or whatever, from my last meeting into this new meeting and it doesn't necessarily serve it. Tom: Absolutely, and I love that you share that, Christine, also because I think this is true for me for all the topics that we discuss. I don't get all of them just because I feel like I know these things. I don't nail them every time. get better, hopefully, every year than the previous year, but I make all kinds of mistakes with meetings, like what you're describing, because we're human beings. But I know better. It doesn't mean I always do better, I guess. ⁓ yeah, that's one of them. ⁓ Christine Courtney: right. Yeah. I know, but I think that is true. Like how important energy is. it's energy that you bring in, whether it's the energy like you said, that you start, whether you do check-in ⁓ to other people's energy, ⁓ get focused on the same thing. And I think that is key. You know, I know that you go to a lot of, yeah. And you go to a lot of meetings that are outside too. So you see a lot of meetings with lots of different clients and vendors and so forth. And have you ever walked out of a meeting and thought, ⁓ my God, what just happened there? Like, what causes that when you just are like, either this was a waste of time. I mean, that's, think probably the worst. At least if you're angry about something, it means something happened. Tom: Yeah, there's a bunch of things that could. Christine Courtney: But if you're angry just about it being a waste of your time, like that just didn't serve anyone. you think about how much money hour is in that room, like it's such a waste of dollars, you know? Tom: That frustrates me what you're saying. It's such a waste of actual money, even if you don't take people's thoughts or emotions into consideration or ⁓ opinions on the matter. ⁓ does cost money to have meetings. So a common experience that I have with clients or outside ⁓ of our company, because we don't do this much, because we really think about this ahead of time, I find. But, I'm not saying, like I said before, we're not perfect, but a one ⁓ is the, kind get a sense that ⁓ these meetings, ⁓ someone decided we have to have meetings every month or something like that. So then the person who's in

charge of scheduling, Christine Courtney: Thanks for spending time here on stepping into your leadership. I'd like to give a special shout out ⁓ to our podcast producer, Richard Francisco. ⁓ Check out our notes for any and if you wanna get anything out of this, go to our YouTube channel and please subscribe to Leadership Lab TV. If you heard something today, of course, that resonated with you, do something with it. Mmm. Tom: the meeting knows they have two hours or three hours or whatever every month that they need to call all these people together and have a meeting for. And then they build their agenda around the fact that they have that time to fill and that period of time when they say they need to do it. And so the content is frequently the second most important thing to them. The first most important thing is that they're complying with the meeting that needs to happen. Christine Courtney: It's all about the choices that you make. It's what you say in conversations, how you show up in a moment. Share this episode with someone who's maybe starting a new job or stepping into a new level of leadership try one idea because it just might create some pretty powerful leadership ripple effects. Until time, keep stepping in. Tom: at that frequency and at that time, and then they fill it with information or whatever. ⁓ opposite should be true. Meetings should be ⁓ last resort. Have I thought of all the other ways I can, what do I need to communicate? Have I thought of all the means by I could communicate that? Or maybe it's not communication. Maybe I need to gain, get information. But if I done. Christine Courtney: because the room changes when you do. you Tom: my due diligence to get it in other mediums before I do the meeting. Meeting should be the last resort. Christine Courtney: Interesting, interesting. That is controversial. I think, ⁓ interesting because you're right, we don't think of it that way. Like have we done everything? I think there's some exceptions to that because ⁓ guess if you're gaining information, but sometimes you need the energy of the group ⁓ have a brainstorm about new ideas or ⁓ like that that would be difficult to do ⁓ But I do think that you're right. It's like, that's a very specific meeting. Tom: Yeah. And that's an example of my last resort ⁓ that kind of meeting, because I ⁓ do it in the other mediums. need to, sometimes, I have meetings once a week with my team. Sometimes it's only five minutes, sometimes it's a half hour. We cap it at 30 minutes, but it's a little more free. Like we ask people to share problems that they're having, people share. And that one, there's more flex of the agenda is clear what we do like a... Christine Courtney: Yeah. Tom: quick admin updates, ⁓ then it's like if someone has a problem to share, they share it. We all kind of help to ⁓ advice ⁓ it. And I were to do that in email, I wouldn't get the kind of collaborative process that talking with other people and seeing them provides. Now we do it online. ⁓ because I find that'll get you 85 % of the same effect as having everybody in person for that kind of meeting. It's fine when we do it online. And then people aren't also traveling to the location to have the meeting. But that one for me, ⁓ so important to have that type of energy that you're describing. So I have a specific time and do it then and if it's not happening, we end it after 10 minutes. If it's... really action-packed, we just max out at 30. But that can't happen in an email or a phone call. So we do it that way. Christine Courtney: I love that idea. I think problem sharing is interesting because I think immediately garners people interest if they really feel vulnerable enough to share real problems. But also you're getting learning just from hearing like, oh, I don't want that to happen to me. Let me listen and see if I can not only help that person but learn if I too am having that trouble. But I think that's because you have a high trust environment. Like a lot of places don't have that kind of trust to be able to share real problems. So they share problems, but they end up being fake, brags, ⁓ know? ⁓ all, it's all like things they, they fixed, you know, ⁓ else's problem that they fixed. ⁓ let's go opposite, but maybe step it up a bit. When you think about a great meeting, okay, some of the great meetings you've ever been a part of, ⁓ something that's actually Tom: Yep. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, true. Christine Courtney: different about it and not just the opposite of what we just said, but what's like, what's different about a great meeting you think? Tom: I love it, but this is maybe a little bit specific. Everybody's a little different. Everybody's answer to this would be different, but for me specifically, I just love a short, effective meeting where I walk away going, well, I have clarity. I connected with folks as well. I got to see them and talk, but I walk away knowing what I need to do from that meeting or what the team needs to do differently. And it was brief. Christine Courtney: Go ahead. Tom: Like it took me 15 minutes, incredible. So I do love a tightly well-driven, well-led meeting. ⁓ It's I also love a meeting where the leader of the meeting is ⁓ vulnerable enough hear honest opinions. Christine Courtney: Okay. Tom: I think is what you're describing, without getting defensive is the key to building that trust in meetings. If you come out right away and say, you know, in this meeting, I'm gonna be sharing this stuff. If I wanna let everybody know, if you do disagree with me, it doesn't hurt my feelings, tell me. Because that's what keeps the meeting vital and alive is actually, and I might not know the answers, but the worst case scenario is that everybody's sitting back, not me know the fact they. they think there's something wrong here, you know? So you have to, then you have to follow up with not being defensive. If someone does challenge, you don't just go into explainers for why it's the way it

is, but you really listen and, you know, maybe set up a different meaning to address the thing or address it in a moment, but you drive the thing forward ⁓ you allow for some dissent or challenge without getting flustered. It's super hard. It's so, you just want to defend. Christine Courtney: Okay. Tom: but to really accept feedback during a meeting. Christine Courtney: ⁓ Yeah, it's probably one of the number one ways. excuse me, but it is probably one of the number one ways. what you just described to building psychological safety. Like people are always like, how do I create a more psychologically safe team? Meaning that the team feels that they could take risks without being insecure or embarrassed, that they can speak truth to power, that there's a possibility of debate and that best teams are able to do that. And I do think that when someone challenges you in a meeting, it is the hardest time to be vulnerable because... you're in front of everybody, so it's scary, right? But I do think that it's very interesting in terms of like, boy, is it powerful? It sends a very powerful message to folks. Let's talk about agendas real quick, because there's a lot of debate now on agendas, right? Everybody says you have to send an agenda, but then people, today's ⁓ and age, don't like, you know, they kind of are against the old fashioned agendas that are sent. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Christine Courtney: a week or a month ahead of time, know, with to the minute breakdowns of what we're going to do. I've seen people do very effective agendas that are a text message or a Slack message. But what do you think, what's important to you about an agenda? Tom: ⁓ yeah, I guess that there is one, you know. If I'm gonna get together last minute with somebody, if you and I were to say, hey, let's have a meeting right now, because we have to talk about something, the first thing I would do is say, let's draft, as soon as we sit down, let's draft a quick agenda about the topics we're gonna cover. Yeah, yeah, at the very beginning of the meeting, if I don't have an agenda, Christine Courtney: Good one. ⁓ in the meeting. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Tom: What are the points we need to cover? ⁓ then we write them down and then that's our agenda. Otherwise, ⁓ you out talking about umbrellas and then you just talk about umbrellas and then later on you're like, ⁓ I forgot I had to talk about this other stuff. It got derailed by this other urgent thing. But when don't talk about any content except for the big picture, what are all the things we need to talk about? That also helps you understand. Christine Courtney: Good tip. Tom: Well, can we even do this meeting in the 15 minutes that we have? Maybe this 15 minutes we need to be looking at our calendars and finding enough time to cover these topics. ⁓ Or event, but then you dive into it and you know when you're done, you did it, yeah. People skip the agenda all the time for those, they don't think they need it. Christine Courtney: Yeah,

that's a great tip. Yeah, and hopefully that's not the norm. Yeah, hopefully that's not the norm. Hopefully they have agenda beforehand, but I love that if you just have an impromptu meeting, you create a quick agenda together right there. I think that's a wonderful tip. I think it's also really important, less than like the timing of the agenda. I think it's very important for the facilitator to have it to time out how long thinks it's going to take for yourself as the facilitator. to make sure you don't have too many items on that agenda. However, and I always have a little extra and I also always know where I can cut if we don't have enough time, right? It's just like like, do if I have time and things go faster than I want and I have taken the time to get everybody together and Lord knows it's hard to get everyone together. Do I have something that's of value that I can add in or what am I gonna cut if I see that more often than not we start going over in things? Tom: Yeah. Christine Courtney: I do think though that more important than the timing for everybody else is exactly that. This is why we're getting together. This is the purpose of this meeting. Is it a brainstorm? Is it informational? And I want you to be able to ask questions to my face and in front of each other. ⁓ it that we need to work out a problem? We need a problem, solve something together. ⁓ sort of purpose so that people come into that meeting going, ⁓ am needed, my... Attention is needed here and I'm going to be focused on this bigger outcome. I think that sets an expectation and lets people know that they're there. Otherwise, especially online, they're doing other work. It's so annoying. They're doing other work. Now, I think you and I may disagree about this, so feel free. ⁓ one of the things that also bothers me is people having cameras off during meetings that are remote. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Christine Courtney: Does that bother you too? Or are you like, no, it's easier for people to focus? I mean, I don't, whatever your real answer is I'm interested in, but. In the beginning, when we, in the beginning times when COVID started, we were much more forgiving of people based on whatever their home situation was ⁓ say like, ⁓ you have your kids home or you're, you know, having to work, lots of people working in the same space. ⁓ were very ⁓ of people turning their cameras off. And now, then I felt like it just became an easy out to be able to microtask. ⁓ and people were doing other things and didn't feel like wanting to put you know look decent or had their their jammies on still or whatever but it drives me crazy now like I don't want to be in a meeting with you if you have your camera you have a really good reason you say this is why guys or you know sometimes you have a kid home or whatever but ⁓ thoughts on that for you Tom: Yeah, I think, I mean, not a pet peeve of mine necessarily or something like that, but I do think that ⁓ camera should be on. The problem with cameras off is that ⁓ the temptation is just too great to not be You're already detaching ⁓ and there's you ⁓ it's, being person, a quality to it that... Christine Courtney: Yeah. Tom: is lost. There's some quality loss for a meeting when it's all everybody on Zoom or Teams or whatever the online platform is that where you're having an online meeting. And so there's already some diminished quality to the meeting as a result. But if I then degrade it more by having everybody has their cameras off and if one person has their camera off, certainly if half the people have their cameras off. then I feel weird having my camera on a little bit. Like, well, I guess everybody else is doing it. I'll turn mine off and then I'll go get my coffee and do as I wish. And I think some decorum ⁓ important at meetings. If it's too casual, you do get more of that quality of the meeting loss. And so a serious meeting, in my opinion, cameras are on. With some exception, except people can blur their backgrounds. There's so much people can do ⁓ to the fact that there's something happening. You could... Christine Courtney: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tom: Like you just have a wall behind you. I'm not a parent, so I don't know the challenges specifically. I haven't experienced the challenges a parent has with toddlers running around. So it'd be a lot for me to say. So with some ⁓ ⁓ to people, but generally speaking, cameras should be on, think, for sure. Christine Courtney: I think it's interesting, know, there was a Harvard Business Review came out with an article about a year and a half ago on the new of executive presence. And of the things that was ⁓ different these post-COVID times ⁓ in of the way people look at executive presence ⁓ was this of showing up, like, being there, physically being there. And I think if you can physically be somewhere, do it. If you work, if everybody works remotely, the way that we show up is cameras on. So forget about thinking like, ⁓ I'm doing this. You know, think of it as so many people say, how can I make more, have more executive presidents working remotely? Have a professional appearance. A professional today also is something different. It means authentic. But you wanna look like you're dressed for work, not like you're still working all day in your pajamas, unless you're a pajama company, I guess. But you're ⁓ showing up and you're engaged online. All right, let's talk about, I wanna have time to get to this before we ⁓ today. So I'm gonna jump to this idea of engagement ⁓ participation. So we all know these meetings that end up with the same two or three people talking, you know? What are some simple ways ⁓ can get everyone engaged? So not just the loudest voices. Tom: You taught me this one, it must have been 15 years ago, Christine, and I love it. If you have a question, you need some feedback from people, some kind of brainstorming session, and you don't want to just have the extroverts in the room or the guy, whoever feels the most,

that is always raising their hand and AKA me, you hand out an index card to everybody and you have them write down their top three reflections or. Christine Courtney: or me. ⁓ yeah. Tom: there are three thoughts on it. And then after they write it down, they then share like one after another so you can get that information. But it's not, because brainstorming, the weakness of brainstorming is whatever someone's talking about will then become those, will set the path for all the future conversation about the thing. And so you're letting go of all the conversations about everything else over here. But by hearing the things people wrote down, Christine Courtney: Thank Tom: And the reason you'd have rewrite down three is if someone else said it, they can always do their number two. So you are getting more information and then people discuss what was shared, you know, from the cards. And then you do hear at least everybody's point of view. Another is to say at the beginning of meetings, I do think it's important to frame it, to say, you know, a couple of things. I might, you might have a ton of great ideas. I'm gonna also lean into hearing more voices. So sometimes you've said ⁓ or two things in the meeting, I might end up ⁓ okay, I'm gonna hold off for a moment and call on someone or I'm gonna actually ask someone else to speak. So that might happen during the meeting. I might just call on you. I know Erica would do the little, she'd write everybody's name on a, what is that called? Popsicle stick and then she'd pull it out and. just randomly, you know, could put a piece of paper, pull it out and do random call-outs for people to get their input. Some people are terrified to speak publicly, others are not. So just creating as much of a safe space for, know, quote unquote as that as you can. But yeah, I think one of the key ones is that the one with the cards is something I would immediately say you could try. Christine Courtney: you Yeah, I forgot about that. think also, this is something that learned from reading that book, Quiet, that really like how to get introverts more ⁓ engaged in meetings how to hear their voices more. And one of those I thought was interesting was, ⁓ you know, I value so much because I'm pretty good at it. So I didn't realize that not everybody likes to have ideas, just questions just thrown at you in a meeting. that doesn't bother me. So when I read that and I thought, ⁓ if you wanna get those introverted minds, which are, ⁓ they to be very good observers. ⁓ If wanna get their thoughts, and of course I did, ask those questions ahead of time in your agenda. Like these are the questions we're gonna be looking at so that their mind, Tom: Yeah. Christine Courtney: has time to feel more comfortable doing a little bit of research beforehand or prepping for that meeting. And that was like a aha moment for me because I thought it would take out the like spark of a meeting or the fun, but actually it just made it go a little deeper

because people that, because believe me, the people like myself that want to just be off the cuff, we're gonna, we're not reading those questions ahead of time anyway. Do you know I mean? But the people, the people that do, they're gonna actually. Tom: Hahaha Christine Courtney: prepare and be more comfortable sharing their more, you know, researched thoughts or get some data behind it. And I think that that can be important as a leader. I think for those of you out there that are in meetings and you're wondering how do I participate more how do I step back and not take over a meeting, I think is a really good self-reflection. I know for myself, And for, have coached this on other people. If you're, if you tend to talk a lot, I'll say, you can only talk three times in this meeting. I'll say this to myself. So I'm going to try to hold on to those, one of those times to be important. not just. I have to just jump on because I'm excited about adding onto something that someone says. then counter to that is if you're someone who's very shy, I've said to them, ⁓ you must at least once. And that tends to get them to go early on because they don't know if they're gonna have an idea later. can talk more, but you must talk once in this meeting. ⁓ people are afraid that they're gonna become the over-talker, but generally that's not the case. Any other thoughts on those things for those folks? Tom: That's good. Yeah, it's. Well, one thing I love about that is that you're giving this pre-expectation about the meeting. You're kind of like saying, this is how we're gonna do the meeting. so you're setting it up in advance ⁓ also the ⁓ giving that feedback ahead of time. ⁓ also knowing that for people who, you again, like, you know, we've said it earlier, but ⁓ do like to be the guy, like I have ideas come to my head and I love to share them. Okay, so I love the idea of prepping the meeting ahead of time, prepping folks ahead of time about the expectation about how we share that stepping forward, that phrase, stepping forward or stepping back. If you've already stepped forward, step back a bit, let others talk. Christine Courtney: Okay. Tom: People do tend to then go, ⁓ that's work doing it collectively. I will also do that. It helps. I think that it's not just an introvert extrovert thing necessarily either. ⁓ a of, you can an introvert and love to contribute, have ideas, love to contribute them to meetings. But. Christine Courtney: Mmm. Tom: I don't know, it's weird, Christine. I just had like a brain, like a crash or something, really. I a wall with that one. I would need, I need to start over with it or something. I have ideas about it, but I'm getting into my own. I'm tripping out on it because it involves me so much. I'm talking about myself too much and then I... Christine Courtney: You We'll cut that if it comes back to you. You're getting into your own, you're thinking about yourself too much. All right. All right. Real quick, we're going to jump to some rapid fire things before we close. meeting you've ever been in, one thing that made it great. You don't have to say the meeting. Okay. One word to describe most meetings today. Tom: Again, brief, brief and clear and brief. Most meetings, Christine Courtney: One word describe what they should feel like. Tom: One word. Christine Courtney: Essential. Tom: Meaning essential. Christine Courtney: what's one thing about meetings you wish ⁓ leader would rethink? Tom: I really love this. ⁓ I every ⁓ leader leading meeting felt the need to be a maker during the meeting and to drive it forward and to rely on sometimes little less. mean, ⁓ unless you're just, you ⁓ to gauge where you on the spectrum here, but ⁓ we can lean so far the collaborative meeting again that it becomes diffuse and we're not sure where this thing is even going anymore. In a crisis is on the one level of it, right? During a crisis you need a leader who's gonna like pull everybody together and say this is what needs to get done. This is neat. You, you're gonna do this. You, you're gonna do that. This is when it needs to be done by so this thing can be resolved as quickly as possible. People love that kind of leadership. At that moment they don't want collaboration. There are times when really softer Christine Courtney: Yeah. Tom: ⁓ shared leadership is important in a meeting. And so do it then, but you have to know the context for it. And I would say most of the time meetings need a decisive leader that can drive things forward so that people know who does what by when at the end of the meeting. And the thing ends either when you said it was going to end or a little early because you were driving the thing. You weren't allowing people to, you're using kindness though, right? You're, being kind to people. Christine Courtney: Yeah. I'm that if anything has do with race, or anything, or anything else, it is. You're not human beings, you're not human beings. Tom: you're taking care of people, but you are saying like, okay, we're actually gonna have a separate meeting. There's a great point you're saying, we'll talk about that in a minute, or we'll talk about that after the meeting. I wanna make sure we end on time. ⁓ You're not humiliating that person unless you are really shaming or know, dominating, but drive things forward, be kind, but get it done so that people, and be accountable. Christine Courtney: I love that. And you know, Brene Brown says, clarity is kindness. So we could all be a little, it truly is kindness. last tip, we've said it before, but I'll say it again. ⁓ wonderful thing to do is a quick, as you do a check-in at the beginning of meetings, that's very quick. ⁓ like a quick check-in at the end where you just go around and say, commitment, ⁓ commitment that you are gonna make as a result of this meeting. Tom: That's it. Clarity is truly kindness. Christine Courtney: So that proves that it was worth it for you to be there. And secondly, something you're gonna cascade to somebody else that wasn't in that meeting. I think those are two things, commitments and cascades. But Tom, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate your clarity. I learned some things. I know that I'm gonna think about before I go into my next meeting and those of you at home or in your car or on a walk listening, I hope you found some things. Tom: That was fun. Thanks, Christine. Christine Courtney: And we are gonna continue this conversation because we really just started with the beginning and with the end and we didn't talk about the whole middle. And so that is gonna come up in future tune in. ⁓ are on a quest to transform meetings and make sure they hit the mark. Thanks, Tom. Tom: Thank you.