TRASCRIZIONE 🔗
WEBVTT
1
00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:15.320
Welcome to Psycho Killer Shocking true crime Stories. I'm Simon Ford.
2
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:18.320
And I'm Jack Morrel. Today's case is one of the
3
00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:22.480
most harrowing in British criminal history. The brutal murders of
4
00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:26.839
two ten year old girls, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman,
5
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.640
by a man who chillingly was working as a school
6
00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:32.280
caretaker at the time.
7
00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:39.520
His name Ian Huntley, a man who on paper appeared ordinary, unremarkable,
8
00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:44.960
but beneath that thin veneer of normality lay something monstrous.
9
00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:48.039
In Part one, we are taking you inside the mind
10
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:52.159
of Ian Huntley, his early years, his disturbing history with
11
00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:56.719
young girls, the warning signs missed by institutions, and the
12
00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:12.040
terrifying calm before the storm.
13
00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:08.560
Taking their walk towards the unknown. These are the last
14
00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.719
identified steps of Holly and Jessica, recreated by two young
15
00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.680
girls from a drama company in Cambridge. They were wearing
16
00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:18.719
identical clothing and jewelry to the missing ten year olds.
17
00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:23.840
The Manchester United Church, August two thousand and two. A
18
00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:28.439
quiet summer in Soham, a tight knit market town in Cambridgeshire,
19
00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:32.280
the kind of place where everyone knows everyone and nothing
20
00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:36.200
much ever happens That's exactly why the murders of Holly
21
00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:40.120
Wells and Jessica Chapman sent shock waves across the country,
22
00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:44.719
because this wasn't some faceless urban sprawl. This was a
23
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.480
community that felt safe, familiar, protected.
24
00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:52.480
And right in the heart of that community was Ian Huntley,
25
00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:58.359
the school caretaker, trusted, visible, helpful, the kind of man
26
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:02.040
who'd waivert parents on the school run. He worked at
27
00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:05.640
Soham Village College, just around the corner from where Holly
28
00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.919
and Jessica went to school. Jeremy Thompson from ITV News
29
00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:14.159
interviewed in Huntley during the search for Holly and Jessica.
30
00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:16.039
How do we know they were here at six fifteen?
31
00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.360
While we have an eyewitness, Ian Huntley, here's a familiar
32
00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:22.199
figure evening in. You're the school caretaker.
33
00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:24.240
The girls, Jessica.
34
00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.360
And Hollywood know you, and they saw her on the
35
00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:27.000
front doorstep.
36
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:27.879
What went on?
37
00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:30.840
I don't know the girls. I still on the fun doorstep,
38
00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:32.840
glooming my dog down. She'd run away and come back
39
00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:35.479
a bit of a mess. They just came across and
40
00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:37.360
asked how Miss Carr was, as she had to teach
41
00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:39.639
them the Saint Andrew's I just said, you were very
42
00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:41.360
good as shared and got the job, and they're just
43
00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:43.919
as Please tell her that we're very sorry, and off
44
00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:46.719
the walks in the direction of the library over there.
45
00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.680
And Huntley's partner, Maxine Carr, was even closer to the girls.
46
00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:55.840
Carr was a classroom assistant at Saint Andrew's Primary School,
47
00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.919
the very school attended by both girls. In fact, mac
48
00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.280
Scene was Holly's teaching assistant. She knew both girls by name,
49
00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:07.319
had helped them with their reading, and she liked to
50
00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.280
be seen as part of their lives.
51
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:12.879
What they couldn't have known was that Maxine Carr wasn't
52
00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:16.759
actually at home. She was one hundred miles away visiting
53
00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:21.520
her mother in Grimsby. That friendly smile that was Ian
54
00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:23.360
Huntley lying through his teeth.
55
00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.120
They were seen a number of times in nearby sand Street,
56
00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.639
heading towards the local sports center, where they were caught
57
00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:32.120
on CCTV cameras, and at a quarter of the seven
58
00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:33.360
the pair was spotted in the.
59
00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:37.319
Ear That CCTV footage, the last known image of Holly
60
00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:41.960
and Jessica alive were Haunt a nation, two best friends
61
00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.240
walking side by side on a quiet summer evening in
62
00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:48.000
a town that never expected danger.
63
00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:52.400
All the while, Ian Huntley was right there, acting helpful,
64
00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:58.240
pretending to care, giving statements to the media, even participating
65
00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:02.319
in the search effort while knowing exactly what he'd done.
66
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:06.400
What made his crime so uniquely chilling was the element
67
00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:12.000
of betrayal. Huntley wasn't some outsider. He was inside the gates,
68
00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:17.240
inside the school, trusted, and Maxine Carr, whether knowingly or not,
69
00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:19.000
helped cover his tracks.
70
00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.160
We'll get deeper into
Load full transcript
cars roll in part two of
71
00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:25.879
this story, but for now, just know this. She gave
72
00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:29.319
him an alibi. She told please she was with him
73
00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.680
on the night of the murders. She claimed they were
74
00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.639
at home together, and whether she believed him or was manipulated.
75
00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:39.399
We'll unpack all of that next time.
76
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.079
Coming up, we dive into Ian Huntley's disturbing past, the
77
00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:49.240
allegations that were ignored, the psychological markers that went unnoticed,
78
00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.680
and why by the time he arrived in Sohen this
79
00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:54.959
predator was already fully formed.
80
00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:58.720
It's not just about what he did, it's about who
81
00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:02.439
he was and whether our systems ever had a chance
82
00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:13.639
of stopping him.
83
00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:18.519
It was a warm summer's day in Soham August two
84
00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:21.399
thousand and two, a Sunday like any other.
85
00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.959
Let's walk ourselves through the timeline of what happened to
86
00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.120
Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman on the day they died.
87
00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:34.160
Twelve pm, Holly and Jessica are at the Wellesley's family home,
88
00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.879
enjoying a barbecue with their parents. It's the school holidays.
89
00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:41.040
The girls are relaxed, laughing, full of energy.
90
00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.120
Three point fifteen pm they go upstairs and change into
91
00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:50.120
their matching Manchester United football shirts, David Beckham's number seven.
92
00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:53.920
A photo is taken of the two girls smiling side
93
00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.519
by side. That image would later become the face of
94
00:05:57.560 --> 00:05:58.720
a national tragedy.
95
00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.000
The girls ask if they can walk to the local
96
00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:06.439
shop to buy sweets. It's a short distance, they know
97
00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:08.240
the way. Their parents say yes.
98
00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:14.319
Five fifteen pm CCTV captures Holly and Jessica walking past
99
00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.959
the sports center. They're headed towards College close. It's a
100
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:22.879
route they've taken before, but this time they don't come back.
101
00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:30.120
Shortly after five fifteen pm, Ian Huntley is outside his house.
102
00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.759
He sees the girls. He smiles. He tells them Maxine
103
00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:39.519
is inside. They trust him. They go inside.
104
00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:44.399
Between five thirty and six pm, we don't know exactly
105
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:48.079
what happened next, but sometime in that window, both girls
106
00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.560
are killed. The method is still uncertain, but what we
107
00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:55.360
do know tragically is that they never left that house alive.
108
00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:00.639
Later that night, while the town sleeps, Huntley begins covering
109
00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:05.199
his tracks, but his mask, carefully worn for years, is
110
00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.399
beginning to slip.
111
00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:15.759
To make sense of the terrible murders of Holly Wells
112
00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:18.879
and Jessica Chapman, we need to understand the man who
113
00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:24.839
committed them, because Ian Huntley didn't just wake up one
114
00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:28.600
day and become a killer. His crimes in Soham were
115
00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:34.800
the horrific climax of a long, disturbing trajectory marked by manipulation, predation,
116
00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.800
and failure after failure by the institutions that should have
117
00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:39.399
stopped him.
118
00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:43.279
That's right, and what's especially disturbing is just how many
119
00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:47.480
warning signs there were. Huntley left a trail of red flags,
120
00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:54.560
indicators of serious psychological disturbance, exploitative behavior, and escalating risk.
121
00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:59.040
It's not just hindsight talking here. These were the patterns that,
122
00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:03.519
if properly he recognized, could and should have stopped him
123
00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.439
long before he ever arrived in Sohen.
124
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:10.399
Born in Grimsby in nineteen seventy four. Huntley was the
125
00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:14.040
eldest of two sons. He came from a fairly ordinary
126
00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:17.399
working class background, but even from a young age, he
127
00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:21.279
stood out, though not in a good way. Teachers described
128
00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:25.399
him as isolated and socially awkward. Classmates called him a loner.
129
00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:29.680
He had difficulty forming relationships and often reacted to rejection
130
00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:31.800
with intense anger or sulking.
131
00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:35.600
He dropped out of college, drifted through dead end jobs,
132
00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:40.480
and never managed to keep himself stable. He lacked direction, ambition,
133
00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:45.080
and accountability, yet he developed a sinister sort of cunning.
134
00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:50.360
He learned how to manipulate people, especially younger, more vulnerable girls,
135
00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:52.200
and he got good at it.
136
00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:57.000
Between nineteen ninety five and nineteen ninety nine, Huntley was
137
00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:02.320
the subject of at least ten separate allegations involving underage girls.
138
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.679
These included
accusations of statutory rape and indecent assault. Some
139
00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:11.559
victims were as young as thirteen, and while none of
140
00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:14.639
the cases led to prosecution due to lack of evidence
141
00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:18.519
or withdrawn statements, the consistency of the complaints paints a
142
00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:19.679
very clear picture.
143
00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.799
It's hard and particularly as a culp to overstate the
144
00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:29.120
level of systematic failure. Here, each allegation was logged in isolation.
145
00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.080
No one joined the dots. There was no national safeguarding
146
00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:36.720
system robust enough to track his history, So when he
147
00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:40.320
applied for a job as a school caretaker in Soham,
148
00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:42.559
Huntley came up clean.
149
00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:47.159
This was a man with a known pattern of predatory behavior,
150
00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:50.879
and yet he was given access to school grounds and
151
00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:52.559
proximity to children.
152
00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:57.840
Let's put Huntley's profile in context. Psychologists often talk about
153
00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.639
MacDonald triad, three behavioral indicators in childhood that are believed
154
00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:07.559
to correlate with future violent behavior, cruelty to animals, fire setting,
155
00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:10.960
and persistent bedwetting beyond the typical age.
156
00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.399
In Huntley's case, we know of at least one confirmed behavior.
157
00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:19.519
He was known to torture and kill animals as a teenager.
158
00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:23.919
He was also fascinated by fires and was suspected of
159
00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:27.960
setting several blazes in abandoned buildings. Combine that with his
160
00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:32.960
manipulative streak, his inability to empathize, and his control over others,
161
00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:36.120
and the warning signs start flashing bright red.
162
00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.679
And then there's the hair Psychopathy Checklist Revised, or the
163
00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.840
PCLR as we refer to it. It's a diagnostic tool
164
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:47.799
used to assess the degree of psychopathic traits in individuals.
165
00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:53.600
It scores twenty items across two key factors, interpersonal effective
166
00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:56.440
traits and antisocial behaviour.
167
00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:02.720
Traits like pathological lying, shallow effect, lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle,
168
00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:07.919
and poor behavioral control. Based on what we know post conviction,
169
00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:12.159
Huntley checks a disturbing number of these boxes. In fact,
170
00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:16.080
many forensic psychologists reviewing his case believe he would score
171
00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.039
well above the diagnostic threshold of thirty.
172
00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:22.559
What we're looking at here isn't just a man with
173
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:28.559
violent impulses. It's someone with a deeply ingrained pattern of using, discarding,
174
00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:32.879
and destroying others to serve his own ends without remorse.
175
00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:40.720
That's the hallmark of psychopathy.
176
00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:43.399
This is something I probably keep for the rest of
177
00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.320
my life. I think it's what hollygate me on the
178
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.799
last day of terms. She was very, very upset because
179
00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:51.000
they didn't get my job.
180
00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:52.559
And that's the kind of girl she was.
181
00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:56.519
She was just lovely or dearly lovemage. That's really very sweet,
182
00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:56.799
isn't it.
183
00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:01.039
In nineteen ninety nine, Huntley met Max Carr in a
184
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:04.639
nightclub in Grimsby. She was just twenty two years old
185
00:12:04.759 --> 00:12:09.639
working as a classroom assistant. By all accounts, she was shy, insecure,
186
00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.000
and perhaps flattered by the attention of an older man.
187
00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:17.080
He was controlling from the start. Friends of Car described
188
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.240
how hontly isolated her from her family, dictated her appearance,
189
00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:25.960
and humiliated her in public. The relationship bore all the
190
00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.759
classic hallmarks of coercive control. The car stayed out of fear, dependence,
191
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:33.919
or a twisted sense of love.
192
00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:38.279
And this is where things start getting complicated, because after
193
00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:42.879
the murders, Carr provided Huntley with an alibi. She told
194
00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:45.799
police they were together on the night the girls disappeared,
195
00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.919
when in fact she was visiting her mother in Grimsby.
196
00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.960
The question is did she lie willingly or was she
197
00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:54.840
manipulated into doing so?
198
00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.759
Was she a classic enabler or a secondary victim in
199
00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:03.320
a relationship built on domination and psychological control. It's a
200
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.279
question we'll explore in Part two when we take a
201
00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:09.480
much closer look at Maxine Carr's role in the murders
202
00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:12.960
of Hollywells and Jessica Chapman, and whether she should be
203
00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.960
judged as an accomplice or something more complex.
204
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.159
Sully the girls are still alive, are probably being held
205
00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.679
together and very much against their will.
206
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.039
Clarence Mitchell, thank you. Two young girls, a small town,
207
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:31.360
a school caretaker who seemed to blend in. But as
208
00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:35.679
we've seen, there were signs, there were patterns, and there
209
00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:40.039
were people who missed them or chose not to see them.
210
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:42.960
And as the town of Sohem searched desperately for two
211
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:47.960
missing children, Ian Huntley was already spinning lies. He was
212
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:51.960
cleaning his house, he was controlling the narrative, and the
213
00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.919
public had no idea what was lurking behind that seemingly
214
00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:56.960
ordinary face.
215
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.200
In Part two, we'll take a deeper look at Huntley's
216
00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.360
disturbing behavior in the days after the murders, his manipulation
217
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:10.120
of the media, his calculated lies, and his partner Maxine Carr.
218
00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:14.720
Was she a classic enabler or a victim of coercive control.
219
00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.279
We'll also walk through Huntley's final undoing and score him
220
00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:24.080
against the hair Psychopathy checklist revised to determine whether this
221
00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:27.519
school caretaker was in fact a textbook psychopath.
222
00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:32.120
If you found this episode disturbing but compelling, there's more
223
00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:35.679
where that came from head over to psychodashkiller dot Co
224
00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:40.000
to explore the full archive of our true crime investigations,
225
00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:40.679
and if.
226
00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.480
You want to help us keep the podcast alive and independent,
227
00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:48.720
please consider supporting us on Patreon. Just search Psychokiller podcast
228
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:53.679
on Patreon and get exclusive bonus content, early access and
229
00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:55.039
behind the scenes extras.
230
00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.679
Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review wherever you get
231
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.840
your podcasts, and share us with the true crime fan
232
00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:02.679
in your life.
233
00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.240
From sohem to serial killers, We'll keep digging until the
234
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:08.559
full story is told.
235
00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:12.759
Thanks to BBC News and ITV News for the archive
236
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:14.440
clips in this episode.
237
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:17.080
And thanks to you for listening. We'll see you next
238
00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:18.720
time for Part two.