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you're listening to and explore your ability in production. I'd like to begin by knowledging the traditional owners and the custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded on today, the eight clangs of the Yorda Yorda Nation. I also pay my respects to the Elders, past and present. Hi, my name is Chris Stevens Todd, and you're listening to Out Loud exploring LG BTI QA Plus Topics and Stories. On this week's episode of Out Loud, we're going to be discussing queer representation in TV, films and books. Queer representation in TV has come a long way in recent years. It's important to have diverse and inclusive representation on screen. Many shows now feature LG BTI QA Plus characters and storylines, helping to increase visibility and promote acceptance. It's great to see the entertainment industry slowly embracing diversity. I want you to think back. What was the first representation that you remember that you saw on TV? For me, I remember back in 1997, I was 10 years old at the time the whole Alan coming out on the last episode of Alan, and then the show got cancelled and Alan got cancelled and many of the people associated with the episode lost work and weren't hired for a long time, and I don't recall watching Alan on a regular basis, but I remember seeing it in the news and hearing it about it at the time and the negative aspect around it as well, the backlash that people had in that episode. And I don't think Alan worked for quite some time really until they then brought the Alan D'Generes show to life and all of a sudden people loved Alan again. The next major kind of representation that I remember was 1998 when Will and Grace graced our screens, which is kind of strange that in 1997, the Alan episode had such a big blow-up. But then in 1998, will and Grace one of the biggest shows to come out and I would still say today is one of the biggest shows had two gay characters in it that were the main characters out of the four leads, two being two straight women that backed up and were the supporting characters for the gay men. And I believe them characters were put in to help the women audience that the show was targeted, to help them see themselves within Grace and Karen, to help, you know, have that viewership because you know obviously the gays were a minority so it wasn't targeted at us. But Will and Grace is a sitcom that revolves around the lives of best friends, will Truman and Grace Edler. Will is a gay lawyer and Grace is a straight interior designer. The show follows a hilarious and heartwarming adventures as they navigate their careers, relationships and friendships in New York City. And then there's Jack who I fear was put in for the real big comic relief and who has played very gay and I would even say maybe given like a villainous kind of role in the show, like he was someone that you know. You were obviously made to want to like Will and Grace more than Karen and Jack, but as a young person I would have then been 11 onwards while Will and Grace was on, I definitely did not identify with Jack in any shape or form and I didn't want to either. You know, I saw him as a the character that I was being bullied, being potentially where people thought that is what being gay is, and I wanted to be far from that. I kind of wanted to be more like Will, but he seemed to have his life together to a degree and you know he had a good job, he had money, but I kind of feel Will's life was. You know, now I'm an adult and look back I was far from together and Jack was probably more the together character, if anything, if I look back to at it all now as an adult. I kind of feel I probably resonate with Jack now, even though he was a character I far from wanted to ever be associated with, because Jack's just, I think, really proud of who he is and he's apologetic, and that is what being an out proud gay man is all about. So it's interesting, growing up and looking back at what you tried to avoid and run away from is actually a character that you think, yeah, that was a really good character and it was played by Sean Hayes. He's an openly gay man in real life and he's been an advocate for LGBT rights and has received praise for his portrayal as Jack on the show. And maybe that's why the character was played so well, because it was actually played by a real gay man. When Will was played by a straight man, so he had that little bit more of a straight lace kind of vibe and it probably happened because you know it's being played by a straight man. This you know, jack, and it just shows that gay men play gay characters a little better because A they understand and know what it's like to be gay. Will and Grace went on to have a total of 11 seasons between 1998, when I mentioned it started, to 2006. It then had a revival in 2017 to 2020. And I just feel that that show really helped bring a little bit of mainstream to queer culture. But it wasn't until I discovered where is folk that I was submerged in what I think is real, real, true gay culture. In that timeframe anyway and I'm not talking about the British version I didn't know that one existed until I was a little bit older. I stumbled across the American version in 2003, when I was 15 years old. It was on SBS in Australia and it aired on a Monday night at 10pm. And what I would do and I don't recall what season I actually came in on when I discovered it, but what I would do I would come into my bedroom because I had a TV in my room and I would lock my door. I had a lock on it and I'd put my headphones into the little headphone jack spot at the front of the TV and I would sit. Or, if I didn't have my headphones, I would sit as close as I possibly could with it on volume two so no one else would hear the TV show running, because my bedroom was in between my parents' bedroom and my siblings' bedroom. So, and if you have seen Chris Vogue you can get rather raunchy so I didn't want anyone else hearing them sounds. So volume
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two is as close as I possibly could to the TV A so I could also turn it off and I had close, you know, to the buttons as possible and I would watch that on Monday night and I'd learn what gay culture was. And looking back at it now too, it probably wasn't the healthiest kind of introduction to what gay culture was. Watching a show where an older man falls for a much younger man, I think, cemented in me that, like I liked older men, because I absolutely loved Brian Kenny the character, and once again played by straight man, which I did not know he was straight for some time either, because I think every character in that show played the character extremely well. There's kind of a mix of gay actors and straight actors within that show, but I think every single one of them really nailed their characters well and the writers and the producers of that show the American version of Chris Vogue just did an absolute amazing job and it really, I think, is his pop culture of cemented in queer representation. Looking back at it now in that era it was a very much to a white kind of TV era. There was no characters in that show that really were outside of the Caucasian box. There was no one of color that I can think of, definitely not in the main cast characters, and I don't really recall a lot of kind of even guest characters that came in that were of anyone of color either. So, looking back, I think if that show now was to air and be on TV it wouldn't work. There's a lot of problematic stuff within the show but it's still to me very much a cult classic. They tried to revive Chris Vogue in I think it was 2022, or maybe it was even 2021, with a whole different story same name but very much a different story where they made it, made it really with today's representation. You know, there was characters of every aspect of our queer spectrum and people with disabilities and things, and unfortunately it didn't hit the mark. It missed the mark a little bit and I think it was more the writing around some of the characters and the betrayal of some of the characters. I actually found it really hard to even like the main character in that series, the revival one, and if you don't like the main character, then you're not going to be tuning in to watch the show. Your main character is meant to be likable because they're what's going to carry the show, and there was even some of the sub characters that I just really found hard to connect with and disliked. It's a shame because I was so excited for that show coming back, but it and we made one season, but the original Quarith Vogue ran, I believe, from 2001 to 2005. It finished its fifth season and I just remembered watching it all right through for as long as I can and as long as I could, on SBS. Thank you, sbs for helping give me the queer culture and upbringing that I had. And but yeah, they touched on a lot of topics. You know, there was obviously a lot of a lot of sex on the show. There was drug use in a positive way, but also in a way of dealing with addiction and people overcoming that, which is, you know, the positive way of the drug use that was seen. There was also a lot of party drug use as well, which you know is a part of um, submerged in queer culture as well. And then there was two lesbians on the show who were a couple and then they had a child, which I thought was really lovely and then a nice kind of touch too, because Brian, he donated his sperm to Lindsay and Melanie to have a child and was a part of that and it kind of gave me a little bit of hope to a degree, because I really wanted children when I was older and thinking maybe that was the only way I was going to have children is if I made friends with Elizabeth and a couple and donate my sperm. But it also talked and covered the the topics of just in, at school being bullied by Ethan and at the graduation being bashed and hit in the head with a steel pipe. At the end of I reckon it was season two, the end of season two when that happened and Justin was badly hurt and once again that was one of the main things that I know I was quite fearful for in my journey of being gay and closeted and not wanting anyone to know that I had feelings for someone of the same sex, because I was like, am I going to get bashed? Am I going to get hit in the head with a pole? But it was a really important aspect that they covered and they did it really, really well, you know, because it also highlighted that internalised homophobia, because there was the scene of Justin the Ethan in the change rooms I think they had detention, which is why they were there afterwards and then something happened and there was a sexual experience between the two of them. That then, obviously, ethan was disgusted in in his way and instead of, you know, going through that experience and either going, yeah, that was something that I enjoyed or something that I did enjoy, he took that out and was homophobic and, you know, bashed Justin at the end of the prom, because Justin brought Brian in at the end and they danced and and he just didn't want to see that His retaliation was violence and that was. That's a really good, clear, I think, show to around around the internalised homophobia. And then he had a female friend who can't remember the name. She, I feel, dropped off after maybe season three or even the end of season two. She had curly hair. I kind of I had a girlfriend at the time when I discovered this show, but I kind of viewed her that I hoped that I would have that connection and I did, and I do, you know, which was my ex-girlfriend. She's now my best friend. It's nice to have that connection that they had, that I viewed that. You know, I wish I had one day. But also, justin had a lot of trouble with his family. His family did not like that. He was gay and his dad definitely had a really hard time with it His mum at the start she really sided with the dad and was really unsure how to really support her son and and be there for
him, but also, you know, for her husband, and in the end she, she was. She left the husband, I believe, and became a really supportive factor for Justin. But that was also something that I was really fearful for was you know, how was my family going to react? Was I going to be in that situation? Because I didn't have anywhere to go? If you know, they had a similar reaction. You know I didn't have much of a boyfriend, though I could just go and live in his loft in New York or Pittsburgh, which I was based in Pittsburgh. So I didn't have that, but I was, you know. I think that show gave me a level of attraction to older men and where it started that, you know I that's what I wanted. I wanted to be Justin and I wanted to be with Brian and I wanted that kind of life. The other characters are quite interesting. Ted was the you know the quite nerdy character and you know his story arc was interesting. You know he went down a porn addiction at one point and it was once again he was the jack of the show. He was the very over the top, very out there gay war fishnet the kind of see through clothes was just unapologetic with his who he was and at the time I disliked him at the most because once again I wanted to be far away as possible from that type of gay, just not an Emmett fan for that purpose. And once again I look back as an adult and think, you know, once again Emmett's probably one of the strongest characters because he is unapologetic with who he is. And then there was Michael and Michael was kind of, you know he was Brian's best friend and I felt sorry for Michael because he he loved Brian but he just was never seen in that light and he went on to be in a relationship with Ben who had HIV and that was the other important, you know aspect of the show is it really shined, you know, a positive light on people living with HIV. Uncle Vic he also had HIV who was Michael's uncle, and there was just no real kind of negative viewpoint on the characters with HIV. Other than that, I think there was some episodes where it covered that mistreatment that they were given, but highlighted and showed that you know people with HIV are just like everybody else and you know you can't catch HIV by touching someone or kissing someone. I believe there was an episode that had you know someone hooked up with someone and then they went through that kind of fear and and thing like that and Brian didn't want Michael being weird Ben I think at one point because he was worried for Michael's health and that Michael would catch HIV. And I think there wasn't any talk in this show I don't believe around zero detection and all that type of thing that you hear now people who are on medication to talk about that you know they're untransmissible. It showed such a good variety of so many different elements of queer life. There was also Hunter, the character who Kossler, that then came in and lived with Michael and Ben, and there was the mom, sharon, who was like the P-flag champion and
who worked at the diner. If you haven't seen Chris Vogue, I recommend you go and watch it, watch season one to five. Even you know just oversee the bits that I feel don't really fit in with today's society. But it's such a good show. As I got older I kind of came across the Sharon's in my personal life and the moms that were just really really supportive and just very out there and it was interesting. It was a lot of fun. That was kind of the main representation I feel that I came across in TV. Brokeback Mountain came out. I don't remember what year that was, but once again there were so many jokes around Brokeback Mountain and if you went and saw it or you saw it, it's like oh, you're gay, why'd you watch Brokeback Mountain? And I remember watching it and at some point I don't recall when I saw it. I definitely don't think I watched it until a little bit later on because I didn't want to admit or I mean, back then I believe it was still DVDs and you know, if you rented it, like you're here taking Brokeback Mountain up to the counter and they're like scanning it and you pay for it, and it was that kind of fear still that oh, I'm getting the Brokeback Mountain and people think I'm gay. But it had a really sad ending with the character passing which I can't quite remember which character it was, but it leads into. You know, most queer films and stories don't have positive endings. Every year I looked forward to the Bendigo Queer Film Festival because it was a regional festival that was brought on and it was kind of the best of the Melbourne Queer Film Festival and the Sydney Queer Film Festival and brought together. So I kind of thought it was the best of both worlds and I didn't have to travel too far, living in regional Victoria. But each film that I saw whether it was Monster Pie, I can't think of any other names, but Monster Pie was one that definitely really affected me. They all had very negative, they all had very sad endings where the characters most of the time end up passing away, being alone, being bashed or killed, like Boys Don't Cry with Hilary Swank where she played a trans character at the end when they found out that they were trans. You know the ending of that was, you know, horrific. And then the ending of Monster Pie where he ends his life and I think the film ends with his feet hanging and he's hung himself off a tree and that's the ending of the film and then you kind of then just leave and you're so defeated and you think why can't we have happy endings? You know, is this what my life is going to be and my like is there? No happy ending for me, but thankfully the shows and movies are now starting to turn around and there's happy endings for gay characters. Another huge moment, which started out in a book for me, was discovering Holding the man. Holding the man is a memoir written by Timothy Conagrave. It's a powerful and touching story that explores his relationship with his partner, john, during the height of the AIDS pandemic in Australia. The book was later adapted into a film and a play First. Well, actually, it's first adapted into a play and then later a film. It's definitely worth checking it out and if you're interested in heartfelt, impactful stories, this story was probably the first book that I read where I actually cried from reading the words on the page. It's a truly beautiful story. Once again, it's a very sad story and it doesn't give the happy ending, and more so because this was a memoir. It was all. These are real people and it was. You know, they lived in Melbourne and I think at one point they moved to Sydney, but it came back to Melbourne and Tim and John met in school. They went to an all-boy school and John came from a very Catholic family and Tim's family, you know, I think they were just in general average Australian family and it explored, you know, them falling in love in high school and hiding their relationship amongst their male friends and then their friends finding out and their friends actually not having any issue with it and celebrating them as a couple and going away for weekends, for boystrips, and you know, tim and John saying in the same bed and that was kind of a beautiful thing to read because it was the 1980s when this, you know, first happened. And to think that even then, in the 1980s, that you know, teenagers were accepting of each other you know, not in every aspect, but their friends were John's family obviously was not very accepting. As you read the book and I definitely, you know, if you haven't read it, go read it and probably stop listening to this episode and come back and listen to it after you finish reading the book, because there's gonna be spoilers, because you know it then went on and Tim was a very, you know, a theory person and they went on and they broke up at certain points and explored, you know, other relationships but then got back together and I think had an open relationship and then the AIDS pandemic hit and unfortunately, john, I think, tested positive first and then Tim later tested positive, but Tim, I think, later and it's been a while since I've read the book and I would have to reread it, but I think it came like Tim knew that he was the one that had given John HIV, which later turned into AIDS. And as you read, you know, then John gets sick quite earlier on and before Tim and Tim struggles with that as well the aspect that he gave the man of his dreams, the man who loved HIV and that took his life and it took integral parts in support and call centres and helping people with HIV. And then John passes away. Tim then goes on and lives and starts writing the story and then Tim passes away eventually as well, and I think Tim passed away before the book got released and you know, I just think you know if he only knew how many lives that he has touched and gave, you know, hope that in a way that is this beautiful story, even though it ended in such a sad way where both of them passed away.
You know, the love that they shared and that was written on these pages was just absolutely touching and even thinking about now I get a bit teary because it really was the first kind of book that that made me cry and gave me that emotion. And then it was adapted into stage play, which I never got to see, and I was so annoyed because I had an opportunity almost to see it and I just didn't work out. But I actually got the opportunity to be in the film, the feature film that was made in 2014. They had a sort of a casting call and I applied. I was on a cruise ship when the email came through, so I didn't live internet and I came back and I'm like, oh, my god, I've got in, I'm gonna be in the film, and I then realized I hadn't replied quick enough, so I replied to them and I'm like sorry, I was out of the country and back. If there's something that I can be a part of, please let me know. I would love to be a part of this film and got. The scene that I think I missed out on was the funeral scene that they shot and which was okay in the end because I got to be in a different scene. So that was a really fun day of filming. Had to try and there was a look that we had to look and meet and when I had to we had to cover like tattoos and all that type of thing that didn't fit into that era. And I got to meet all the cast and be. You know, we had lunch and it was just an amazing day being on set watching it all come together, because I had the scenes and the everything that I saw. I I had read so I knew what was happening and then we got to film and shoot it from so many different angles. So it was a long, long day. And then it was the production stage and waiting for it and then the premiere came out and I went to the opening night and the party the forum theatre, I think it was and I was there with Jeffrey Rush and Ryan Corr and I can't think of the gentleman's name now that played John Ryan, played Tim, and Sarah Snook, who is killing it in in Hollywood at the moment, got to meet her and it was such a surreal event being there with all these actors who I had admired and watched and in many films, but the film itself. I remember getting all my friends in Shepard and then we did a big night and and I was like, well, I may be in it, may not be in it, you know, once again, you don't know what's going to happen or what angles they're going to use, and things like that. So so, you know, I had so many people come into the cinema it's funny because I had a friend and and her parents came as well, they, I just remember the scene like there was one scene in it and, you know, a bit raw, and she you know it's about a gay relationship and just thinking, oh my god, my friend starts watching this right now. He's a very straight, like you know, person but, um, but at same time, you know, is very loving, very lovely and very supportive, you know, and but I was just couldn't hope that thing. I'm like, oh my god, you know he'll be thinking what if I come to watch and it turns out I think my elbow is in the film. That made it, um, the camera angle just wasn't where I was. And another scene the big part of was the sauna scene. Um, that I missed out on as well, which you know I was like, damn, but I had a friend that was in that scene as well. But yeah, it was a lot of fun and the film done really well to the book. I think and it's a shame that I don't think the film got as big of an international push and release as I think it should have. It was, you know, such an amazing film and, once again, if you haven't seen the Hot in the man, I have spoiled it for you if you kept listening. But go watch it. It is uh, fantastic, uh, with, yeah, as I said, sarah Snilch, jeffrey Rush, ryan Corr and a few other familiar faces I can't quite remember I think I feel a parlor it was in it as well. I think he played John Stad because they were Italian. But yeah, there's a few faces that you'll remember and if you see that, but that they were big, defining kind of moments for me in. You know, queer representation and it continues to grow. You know neighbors now has Georgie Stone had it playing a trans character like you know how amazing is that for young trans people to be watching neighbors and seeing someone on the screen who represents them to be. You know that you can go well. You know what Georgie is playing a character on this screen. You know that means I can potentially do that too, because beforehand there was no way that trans people were being cast in roles. You know, if you looked at the the other Danish girl, you know Eddie Redamene is his name, eddie, you know he's looked back. He was cast and to play that character and I think that was around the first person ever to have gender reassigning surgery and he, you know, if you look back at interviews, he regrets doing that film and if it was off it again and if he could go back, he would say no, because he, you know, now thinks he took that role away from an opportunity where a trans person could have played and portrayed that role. I think he said even better than he he did and could have portrayed it. Another, I guess another defining moment came with Orange is the new black, with Levina Cox. It really that show really put her on the map and she played a trans character and it was really interesting because Levina has a twin brother. Levina was a twin and they were identical twins and so they used her twin and brother in episodes as well and so it was really clever. But once again, it was just one of the moments where it really showed a trans female playing a trans person in a female prison and and that show was, it was up and down but once again, I think you know they did Levina's character good. I do think towards the end they didn't utilize her as well as they could have, but, yeah, it really put her out there as well. And then, looking now there's so many shows you've got the revival of heartbreak high here in Australia, which did so well. That covered, you know,
female relationship. It covered same-sex relationship and them slowly, you know, working out what that was and then towards the end and that was, you know, once again, it was a well done show. It had a lot of, you know, humour, but also seriousness to it as well. She's got Heartstopper, which is being I think we have had two seasons of Heartstopper now and watching them shows. It brings joy that young people now have these shows to see that representation of themselves and that these shows are leading more to having them happy endings now than the shows and movies that I watch where everything led to death. In a way it shows now that our lives don't equal with death and that there's happy endings. But I do watch it myself and have a sad kind of area where I feel like I missed out on that. You know, there's these teenage love and they're getting to explore and experience their selves as they're truly meant to be in the world. But I didn't get that and I watch it and have that sense of loss that that was taken away from me because of the society and timeframe that I grew up in. But yeah, it's amazing now that the representation in our TV shows, films and books are representing who we are today and having every part of our spectrum of queerness, whether you're the A, the G, the B, the T, the I, the Q, the A, they're all being shown in films and TV these days. So I do believe that that has helped the increase in Gen Z. You know, gen Z is the generation with the highest population of people who identify within the spectrum somewhere and I do believe that because of representation and we haven't even covered representation in music, I think that's another whole topic that we can talk about but because now there is visibility in nearly everything that you watch and see, it is making it easier for people to see themselves and to know that their lives aren't going to be this sad ending that there's inspiration. But also it shows people that they can be actors, they can be all these things. And it's also a good blend in shows that it's not just, you know, in queer shows that only queer people are watching and the characters are out there and stereotypical anymore. And you know, rupaul's Drag Race is such mainstream now in pop culture. I remember watching the original, like the first couple of seasons, and no one would have known in my friends who RuPaul was or what Drag Race was. And now it's everywhere. You know there's a season nearly in every country and you know it's really giving such a true representation of who we are. So I'm really excited to see what is going to happen as we get older and so excited for the next generation when it comes to them seeing themselves. I would love to see more rainbow families represented on TV. You know, in Australia we did have that TV show around fathers that I cannot remember its name and it was all about dads. And there was a season where the guy who played I can't think of it now, but there was, you know that had a. You know he was a dad. But yeah, we do need more rainbow family representation. I would love for my daughter to see her family and herself represented on TV and films and for her friends and other people to see that. And, you know, for that understanding and that people can understand what Sorya C is. You know that Sorya C and that storyline is shown because it was funny, because my daughter came home recently and said she was adopted and we're like, no, you're not. And she's like yes, I am. Because someone of the big kids told me and it's probably because they don't quite understand the process, you know, to two guys have a child, she must be adopted. But you know, if our family is shown on TV and what Sorya C is and that story a little bit more like you know it has been a little bit here. I think I can't name a show that has been on, but I'm sure it's been on something. You know kids can see that. And then when someone says I have two dads, you know people understand the process and that you know my daughter can watch that as she gets older and she can understand that process a little bit more as well. So, yeah, I'm really excited to see what, what happens in the future and what you know our next generation get, because they. They are lucky. They're lucky that times are changing, because we didn't have a lot of that growing up. Well, I didn't, and obviously people who are older me had even less. So, yeah, so thank you. That is all for this week, and make sure you come back and tune into the next episode.