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Woodrus: or 30 years later. Duey: It's confounding to me. I think I just probably, I don't know at 48 if I'm ever going to be a homeowner. Like I think I'd like to, but the issue has always been for me. I don't, I like, I'm going through this sort of again, um, existential living crisis Woodrus: Uh huh. Duey: where I'm Woodrus: Uh Duey: feeling Woodrus: huh. Duey: like, you know, as, as you know, we just spent a week out in Vancouver Woodrus: Uh-huh. Duey: and it was quite nice. And I think to myself, gosh, it wouldn't it be nice to live somewhere like that for three, four or five months of the year? You know, I've always kind of dug that. I don't love just being somewhere all the time, like 12 months of the year. And I'm not one of those, oh, just go on vacation for two weeks. And that's going to kind of shake my sillies out. I need to really like settle in. Like that was the thing. Like when we were just there, I felt like I don't have a chance to just put my feet down, take my shoes off and hang out here for a while. Right. So buying a house feels. Maybe this is just, you know, me having a feeling, but it feels like, huh, I'm not going to be able to do anything like that. Woodrus: Have you seen that Netflix show, How to Be Rich or How to Get Rich or whatever it's called with that guy Ramit? Have you seen that? Duey: I've seen a preview for that, but I haven't seen it. Woodrus: I, we watched it and I, I actually enjoyed it. I clicked on it as clickbait the first episode thinking, okay, here we go. But you Duey: Right. Woodrus: know what? I enjoyed it. Duey: Really? Woodrus: And he's causing a stink on Twitter because his shtick and he's a business guy. Right. But his shtick is, I shouldn't say shtick because that's insulting. I like his, I like his philosophy. And he's like, you have to design your rich life, Duey: Mm-hmm. Woodrus: which is a clickbait title. But what it is don't do the things that. people think you have to do to quote unquote be rich. So don't buy a house if Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: just because you think people think you should do that. And he's causing a storm on Twitter by putting out there the argument that actually renting can be a better option. And everyone is just, you can't say that to people. People like society, people, oh my God, no, the dream is to buy a house. It's to own a Duey: Right. Woodrus: house, it's to own property. It's to own, everyone who owns a house has an interest in people doing that because then that's how their value of their property increases. If people don't buy houses, then. what they own is worth nothing. So Duey: Where's Woodrus: he's, Duey: your wealth? Woodrus: he's causing a big stink. And he's basically his point is very common sense. It's like, it can be good for someone and it can also be not good for someone else, but it's not an apples to oranges. It's not like rent or buy. It's if renting affords you the life to invest and to save for retirement and to travel and to go into the S and P

500 that can have a greater return than. property where you live, then you should probably consider that. And if you can own a house and still do that, then that's great. But the show is all about helping people budget at a very basic level and get out of debt and to really know what do you want out of life? And for most people, it seems it's not wait until you're 70 and then enjoy it. So, Duey: Sure, no, there's no Woodrus: you Duey: question, Woodrus: know, Duey: yeah. Woodrus: so what does that look like? And for you, it sounds like that you've just described one aspect of your rich life. Duey: I think so too. I've always, you know, my therapist, seven, eight years ago, she said, when I was in therapy, I'm not still in therapy seven years later, God forbid. I have a new Woodrus: Nothing Duey: therapist. Woodrus: wrong with that. Duey: I just switched therapists. She said, well, you've always skipped the line. And that's, I think that's true. I've always found an unconventional way to find where. zone is and homeownership has been no exception. I remember early on in my career we were doing, we were managing the Hartman Media Network, we were doing podcast production for Jason Hartman, who's like a real estate kind of guru, but he's sort of an out of the box thinker and One thing that always stuck with me was that your home is an expense. Stop treating your first house like it's an investment. No Woodrus: Hehehe Duey: different. That's like saying, I just bought a car. What a great investment. You know, this thing is going to make me money. It's not, it's going to cost you money because that's where you live. Your second home might be an investment if you are renting it, or if you have enough money, but one of the things that he said that I liked as well, he said, you know, there's the argument. better than owning because you could put that money into the stock market or something it's like okay that makes sense if You have additional money to put into the stock market as opposed Woodrus: Great. Duey: to buying your first home. So, you know, there's, there's no right way to do it. Like if I walked into, you know, TD Canada Trust and sat down with an advisor to say, what do you think at 48 years old with this income level I should do? They have a binder, you know, that they're going to open up and they go, this is what the actuary tables say that your risk level is. And this is what our advisors would say you should do. and do that and buy our product and buy a bank through us or buy a house through us and you'll be fine. Woodrus: Like, what's the goal, right? Like, what should people do? Like, well, what are you trying to do? Like, what does a house buying a property afford you or not afford you? What does renting afford you? What's the ultimate? The goal isn't to buy a house, which a rent a place. The goal would be the result of that, right? Like, what kind of life do you want? What kind Duey: Right. Woodrus: of income do you have versus like

how much time off, how much this, and for everyone, it's different. So I think he just really encourages people to run the numbers and like visualize what do you want for yourself? And buying a house is. You know me, I forever, I said, I'm never going to buy a house, never going to buy it only because the Canadian market is insane and has been until, you know, a year ago or a year and a half ago. And we came up with on a situation that we were fortunate enough to do something. But Duey: Mm-hmm. Woodrus: I mean, just, I have a friend who lives in the suburbs of the GTA in Toronto and he's like, they've been thinking about moving their families expanding, but he's like, it would cost us a hundred thousand dollars just to move. Forget. the buying of the new house and the selling, but you have the land transfer taxes and the closing costs and this and that. It's like, well, that's silly. Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: So buying a place, you have to, my dad said this, and he's like, where you live is your home. And if you're buying it or renting it, you have to like living there. Duey: Right. Woodrus: And the finances of buying something is, you basically have to live there for like 10 years. If you're hopping around and selling it and moving, you're losing money basically. And there are exceptions and et cetera, et cetera. Like you said, buy something because you like, you can foresee yourself living there. And if you don't, probably you shouldn't. Duey: It all, I mean, this is talking about some universal truth, right? Woodrus: I'm Duey: Where Woodrus: ready. Duey: what we're doing is trying to enjoy. what we're doing, as opposed to doing everything in anticipation of a thing that's coming down the line. And for me, like I, you know, I think about sometimes productivity and how much I like what people call productivity porn. Like the, Woodrus: Mm. Duey: I love the apps and the books and the pens and the methods and the thinking, like I like thinking about being productive and I like getting all the accoutrement that goes around productivity. Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: But then when it's like, you know, you've got to sit down and actually do stuff. And it's like, Oh, You know, and sometimes it feels a little bit like that in life, that you're so busy trying to arrange your nest and get everything the way that you someday would like it to be, that you forget that this is it. You're, you're actually in the middle of it today, you know, and as you're about to go through the, what, you know, is still called and probably not accurately a midlife crisis. There's an existential point where you realize that you're kind of at the theoretical midway or beyond, which is frankly where we are. Most of us, I think we, Woodrus: Yep. Duey: I just finished Woodrus: Yeah. Duey: a great book called strength, the strength where a lot of people overestimate how long they're going to live. You know, I'm, I'm sitting there at that point going, Whoa, whoa, whoa. If I'm lucky enough to get another 35 out of this one, um, you know, what am I doing? Does it matter that in at the end of 35 years, I can make my last mortgage payment? Yay. Woodrus: Hahaha Duey: And then just hop into a hole in the ground and call it quits. Woodrus: Well, sure. Right. I had a friend, a family friend who's since passed away, but he would always joke like, I can't afford to die. Duey: Right. Woodrus: Because you didn't have enough. Well, I don't know if it was true, but money, like you'll have expensive funerals are and processes and things. It's like, I don't have, I don't have enough money to die. I can't afford to die, which I always thought was a funny thing. But it's, you know, you don't take it with you. And time is not the only thing that we don't get back. I mean, that's cliche. But you know, what are you doing? So I think this Ramikaya has this thing called a conscious spending plan, which I think a lot of people, I myself included, I have my spreadsheets in my budget. And when we were looking into buying this, we made our notion pages and this is how much we earn and this is, these are all the expenses. And, and so many people in, in budgeting, what you described with, you know, productivity porn, I guess, other way to describe that is like productive procrastination, Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: where you just read about doing something and you don't actually, you know, do it. Duey: do anything now. Woodrus: Um, but Duey: Like Woodrus: he's Duey: watching Woodrus: like, you have Duey: exercise Woodrus: to. Duey: videos all night. Woodrus: And budgeting, exactly. Budgeting, I think is one where people make these spreadsheets, like this and this and this and this, and they just feel so stressed and guilty about spending money on anything where you need a line in your budget that is guilt free, right? Duey: Yep. Woodrus: And whatever life you want to live with, owning, renting, or living in the woods or whatever, you know, where you can go out and you spend this amount of money on anything you want every single month and you don't have to think about it. And you just know what that number is. And then when you get to that number, you're done. You stop, Duey: that Woodrus: but Duey: true disposable line item. Woodrus: exactly. So the joke about avocado toast and whatever, but Hey, if that makes you happy and it's within that guilt, guilt free spending line and you don't go over it because you have allocated all these other things for these other things that are investing in it's important to you. That's I've been doing that for a while, but it just makes a lot of sense to me where you don't have to think about, Oh my God, Starbucks is $6. Yeah. Well, if I have $1,500 this month to spend on. anything and I can make the choice that, okay, well, I want Starbucks today and that's fine. I think it makes a lot of sense. Duey: Mm hmm. Yep. I've I go. I was thinking about recently, I guess this is I'm on this people we've produced trip, but I was, I was, I

found that Rick Rubin, whose book I finished, uh, I really liked, uh, has his own podcast where he's interviewing like Will Smith and, you know, Paul McCartney or whatever, you know, Woodrus: Nice. Duey: and it's a really good show. And Andrew Henderson was on there. The Nomad Capitalist Woodrus: That Duey: was Woodrus: rings Duey: one of Woodrus: a Duey: his Woodrus: bell. Duey: guests. I'm like, what? How did you get sandwiched into all these folks? And uh, Andrew, so I just, I just reached out to him and I said, you know, congrats. Uh, I really like Rick Rubin. He said, yeah, he's a cool dude, but what? He always said that I always liked. was, you know, go where you're treated best. I really liked this idea that there's a place in the world that you will be treated well for who you are, what you've accomplished and what you want to do. That maybe, and this is another thing I think we get locked into this sort of Canadian, like, you know, bordered mindset where, you know, this is it. Like we got to make it work within this box that we call Canada. And maybe that's not necessarily the case. So, you know, even within this country, like we, like, again, we just went to Vancouver for like a week. And we felt like, yeah, it's very Canada, like it's Uber Canada. It's kind of the best Canada's got going, it seems Woodrus: That's amazing. Duey: in a lot of ways, but it's still very much Canada. You know, and sometimes maybe the fit that you're looking for isn't just within, how can I make this work within the guardrails that the Canadian economy and system and philosophy has set up? Because there's other kind of ways of living out there in the world that he reminded me of just seeing that it's like, gosh, maybe it's Portugal or something. Maybe it's not here. Woodrus: And I think just to put a bow on the home ownership thing, like it's not, if you're listening, and hi mom, that's the only person who listens, if the decision is you buy a property and then you can't do all of those things that you just mentioned, like don't do it. Like that would be my unsolicited advice. Like house poor is a real thing. We're fortunate that we're not. We went to Vancouver as well about. in June, a couple weeks before, before you guys did. Duey: weird. Woodrus: And it was really weird, because we'd never been and I don't know if you've been before, but Duey: We'd Woodrus: it was Duey: never Woodrus: just Duey: been either, no. No, first times. Woodrus: and Porter flies there now. So we're like, all right. And it was just this a life that affords us. You know, I did a little bit of work from the hotel Friday morning, we went on Thursday night. My has a few more vacation days to use up and we took a long weekend went Thursday night came back Monday night. I did some work from the hotel super early because time change, holy cow, Friday morning, but I was done. Pacific time has something going for it. I don't know if, but by 9 a.m. I was done for the day, Duey: I Woodrus: Pacific Duey: know. Woodrus: time, and I was like, all right, well, there's something there, and then just fly back Monday night, get back into the, I mean, that makes us happy, and we're doing little trips like that. I have a 10 in 10 to tell you about, but that, I was your, how was your, how was your Vancouver trip? Because that's, that was ours and it was, it was amazing. And owning a house doesn't get in the way of us doing that, which was really important to us before we did it. Duey: That's huge. So we, well, it was half work, half fun. for me. Um, so I was, I do quarterly meetings with my co-founder and we were doing some consulting with someone from Vancouver. So someone who previously owned a production company that exited in the last couple of years. So I started doing some consulting under him and I wanted to wrap up some of those consultations in person and he's in Vancouver. So I'm like, that's great, David, come on up. Let's go to Vancouver for like three, four days and we'll, we'll do some work. Cause we usually travel somewhere to work anywhere, four times a year. Why not Canada? And I said to Atty, I'm like, dude, I got to go to Vancouver. You want to, if you want to go and I got friends out there and stuff, it's kind of a tag along worky trip, but I can take some extra days at the end of it and we can chill. So we did, we had an amazing like first couple days of just kind of working and digging what it's like to be downtown. and having a jobby job and stuff in Vancouver. Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: And then thereafter, it was like, let's just do touristy stuff. Let's get on like whale watching boats and drive Woodrus: We did Duey: to Whistler Woodrus: that too, Duey: and, Woodrus: it was great. Duey: you know, and it was fantastic. You got to do the touristy stuff to get it out of, get out of your system, right? Get it all out. Um, and then she stayed for an extra couple of days to visit with friends while I came home early. And in the end, we came to one pretty clear conclusion, and I think almost a declaration that. We're going to go live there for maybe three or four months next year. We're going to like maybe spring, early summer in that zone. We're going to go live there for like three, four months, whether it means that because we want to live there long-term, I don't know. But the one thing we definitely felt like is we want to give this city the time and attention that it deserves, like going in even for a week or 10 days. You just, you can't know. Woodrus: We loved it. Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: Loved it. So people were so nice. We went Duey: Mmm. Woodrus: to this really nice restaurant. It was like, we think our anniversary because neither of us knows exactly what it is. So it's like in the beginning of July, sort of, maybe. We just pick a day to say... So we got like, got like Prosecco that showed up in the hotel room because the happy anniversary. Like, well, this is a thing we can use other times. But anyway, we went to this

restaurant and the servers were like amazing and they're like, oh, you're in town or visiting. They were from Ontario, one person was from Peterborough, another person was from somewhere else, of course. They gave us a whole, they wrote out, like, do you have to leave? No, we got some time. Took 20 minutes, they came back, wrote out a whole list of like things to do, local stuff, like just really, really nice, really good vibe, loved it. Not to mention the scenery, I mean walking around with mountains in the background, like if you're from Ontario, like hello. Duey: Yeah, I know. Did you notice, like, one of the phenomenons that we picked up on immediately was that, well, folks are obviously much more fit. Just, like, people are in good shape there, period. Woodrus: I realize Duey: And I was... Woodrus: why because walking around there's a hill, it's like San Francisco, like everything's like this Duey: Everything's, Woodrus: and that. Duey: everything's up or downhill. There's no, yeah, for sure. And you're constantly being pulled towards like we went to the water every day, like one way or the other. We went across the, you know, Island everywhere. Like we're always like going to the water. So we were walking easily 12,000 steps a day without even trying on work days. And the consultant we were working with said that even the investment bankers here, it's a bag of lululemon. And they go in at 6 a.m. They grind till 2 p.m. And then they change their clothes in their office and they're gone, you know, backcountry mountain kayaking something, right? So it's just ingrained in the culture there to go outdoors and Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: move and Woodrus: I noticed that. I love Duey: eat Woodrus: it. Duey: well. And the kindness, like, look, you know, the Quebec has a reputation. All right. And Montreal has a way. Woodrus: Toronto too. Duey: Sure. So I'm not going to use the word rude, but you can infer, but when you go somewhere else like Vancouver, it's, it's shocking how kind and attentive and present people are. Woodrus: We had that experience less than nine minutes after getting there. So we got there, got our bags, took the train into downtown for where the hotel was. And as we were waiting, we were on the train, the train's five more minutes waiting till departure or whatever. And there are these two, there's this couple out on the platform with their backpacks and stuff, and obviously tourists, and they're looking at the schedule and they're like going back and forth. And obviously they're not sure if this is the right train. Now at the right train, way over on the platform, like a good 30 feet away. This guy on the train sitting down, like with his music, takes his headphones off, picks up his bag, stands up, walks across the platform and says, Hey, where are you going? And they're like, oh, we're going to go here. We're going to go here. And he's like, oh no, this is not the right train. Wait for the next one. It's coming in 10 minutes. Gets

back on the train, sits down, puts his headphones back on two minutes later. Startled takes headphones back off, stands back up, walks back across the 30 foot platform and says, you know what? I was wrong. Nevermind. You want Duey: Oh my Woodrus: to Duey: god. Woodrus: get on this one, get on here. It's leaving in 30 seconds to get on the train and just out of the blue. And maybe that happens here and I don't see it, but it's just. You're right, it's just, it's different. Duey: I mean, there's the, you're experiencing that as a tourist, Woodrus: Yeah. Duey: right? So there's, you're gonna, you're already bringing a sort of different vibe and attitude to the situation, but you know, the context is different. It is, it is, it's a palpable difference in the people. One thing that we noticed immediately was how many Iranians there were. Like everywhere there are Persians all over the place. It was crazy. And, uh, and my partner mentioned, it's like, well, this is a lot like Tehran. It's like with the mountains in the background, the climate is the same. Woodrus: Ah. Duey: There's fig trees and Jerry trees everywhere. And so the way the architecture is and the Hills and the houses, she's like, I, I feel like I'm in Tehran. Like back in the day when Tehran was really like the bomb. So she said, I totally see why Persians would leave and Woodrus: Interesting. Duey: live here, because it certainly reminds them of home. But the other part that really struck me, and I knew this would happen for her, was just how much I value nature. You know how important it is for me to be able to easily go outside and be in nature. And I'm not talking like deep woods, like I can be eaten by a bear. I'm not that guy. I, but definitely I would like to walk down a nice wooded path. I love to see water. Oh, hello. Woodrus: Hello. Duey: And you know, if there's mountains, bonus. So it's just for me, it really felt like, not necessarily like this is the place where I've always belonged, but this is like, Woodrus: well. Duey: it had that same Costa Rica effect that it's like, this is the kind of place where I would dig living for a while, like Woodrus: Yep. Duey: hanging out here. Woodrus: Yeah. If you don't look at the run prices, you might, you'll love it. Duey: That's great on paper until you look at the paper. Woodrus: Same, I mean, stereotypical tourist stuff, you got to do it, but first day rented some bikes Stanley Park, you know, just biking around, put your feet in the water. This way, that way, this path, I mean, it's always huge. It's really, really nice. And talking about like that, just that lifestyle that you want, like, we're heading up to the cottage to the lake next week, going on Wednesday, coming back on Sunday and just spending extra days there. can do some work there or not, you know, just have the option and I, yeah, not being in what, I don't know what you said, bordered in one location for me, for us is really important. Just being able to kind of do work or not in different places and have different environments. There's nature in Toronto, of course, but not like that. So being able to get out and go to different places, even just for a few days and you know. or for a couple of weeks, once a year, twice a year. It's, that's important to us. It's really cool when you do it. Duey: We built a remote first company with that in mind. So that for 10 years, that's been my career, is ensuring that we're able to do our best work from where we do our best work or where we are. selves, not to sound too woo woo, but that's the idea is that, you know, my entire business fits in this nice little backpack. And I really, really like that. I also do like having a place, you know, to set my books down. I do like having a place that I open the door and it feels like home. So you know, I now today, I look at things a little differently than maybe I did 10 years ago. But One thing is for sure, we're realizing how much it matters to us to be able to within 20 minutes, be struck. by how beautiful nature can be. We went to, we did the drive up to Whistler, because it's like, you gotta drive to Whistler. It's like, Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: okay. So it's an hour and a half, and it's a pretty drive, of course. So we rented a car, but what we found is that we did all the little stops, all the little lakes and all the little waterfalls and all the touristy stops on the way on that highway. knowing that they're not the deep, local, wow, crazy stuff, but still, holy cow, beautiful. By the time we got to Whistler, we had a dinner reservation and we couldn't wait. We actually went into the restaurant to see if we could sit down earlier, have some oysters and get out of Whistler and get back on the road because Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: it was like, you know, it was a resort town and there's shopping and everything, but... Woodrus: Sure. Duey: We were just like, I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any of this. Like, I want to go back to those mountains. I want to see those snow caps. I want to find another waterfall. I want to go back to that lake and get my toes in there. So we just, we had dinner and we high tailed it back on the highway to just get back out into nature and that was really telling. And that's the kind of people I think that we ultimately we strive to be, are the folks that would rather be out doing things in nature than shopping around looking for the. cargo pants. Woodrus: Not going to the first Lululemon store. That's in Vancouver. Yeah, Duey: Right, we didn't Woodrus: flagship Duey: do that. Woodrus: or whatever. Duey: I don't like Lululemon though, I got a problem with Lululemon. I'm a Vowary Woodrus: Oh. Duey: guy. I've got my yoga preferences. Woodrus: Okay. Duey: I don't do yoga, but I've got my preferences. Woodrus: Right, active wear for the non-yoga goers, I guess. Duey: Amen. What does the rest of your summer look like? Now we're at Woodrus: Ugh. Duey: mid-summer, midlife in summer.

Woodrus: Yep. Um, lake, mix of lake in here. Maybe a trip up a little road trip kind of thing. But really just take making decisions just like take it easy. I really made a concerted effort. We have a yard now like a little back a little backspace. I go out there in the morning to some reading or in the afternoon. So just hanging out enjoying the weather some lake weekends, extended weekends, maybe a road trip in August haven't decided yet. What about you? Duey: I, well, I'm going through the Canadian summer anxiety, Woodrus: Yes. Duey: right? That it's like, uh-oh. And you know, when you start, even, it was like Woodrus: August Duey: May Woodrus: is Duey: and Woodrus: coming! Duey: we were counting weekends in May. And we're like, oh, how many? It's like, and I miss, that's one of the things I miss living in the tropics is you don't give a flying F what time of year it is. It's raining or it's not. The end, right? So there's no like, oh, there's only so many weekends. Summer left. Woodrus: The Canadian Duey: That drives Woodrus: thing Duey: me bananas. Woodrus: is so weird, right? Like everyone in the winter is like, oh, like when the spring summer comes, we'll definitely do X, Y, Z. And then when it does come, immediately everyone says, oh, I'm booked through September. Duey: Yep. And then you feel this sense of guilt because you're not doing enough. And I don't know, there's something around it. So I, it struck a chord when you said, I'm making a concerted effort to just enjoy myself. Cause you know, like I'm trying to, I'm strategically placing books and reading glasses around. So it encouraged me to just stop whatever I'm doing and just sit down and pick up that book and read a little bit, uh, or go, just go, go outside. That's what, that's what I'm doing today. What are you doing today? I'm going outside. That's it. But it's so hard because you feel like, like we bought a boat. Woodrus: Did you? Duey: Yes. Woodrus: Oh, okay, nice. Duey: Not Woodrus: Congratulations. Duey: like a boat. Yeah, Woodrus: I... Duey: thank you. Right. We did it. Not like a big boat, not like a boat with a motor and a big, you know, we got a slip and all that crap. Now we bought a dinghy, like an inflatable six person dinghy. Woodrus: I can hear the boat people being angry. That's not about Duey: That's not Woodrus: to say. Yeah. Duey: about lots of watercraft. All right. You know, but I thought to myself, you know, it's gonna be great. We're gonna there's all these little mini lakes and rivers and tributaries and stuff around here and we'll go out. we'll just, you know, boat around, it'll paddle around and stuff. Maybe get one of those little electric motors and stuff. It's going Woodrus: Exactly. Duey: to be a hoot. And I haven't inflated that boat once. Not once, Woodrus: Ugh. Duey: not once. So it's already the, you know, the two best days of a boat owner's life. Like I'm already planning this thing on Facebook. I haven't even taken it out of the box. Woodrus:

You got to productive procrastination, right? You got to make a concerted effort to do it. And that's we bought an inflatable paddleboard, I think, two summers ago, and love it. And it's day we were going to use it in the city. And we never just we never do we leave it at the lake and paddle around and everything. But when we were looking at this place, the pictures online, we came to see it the most it was late fall, mid fall, but the most exciting thing for me was that back area where you I visualize this non winter months sitting out there and just sitting out just being outside like you said and I do it now like you have to almost sound so funny but make a decision like put it in your calendar you know it's time to sit outside now but I do it in the mornings when I don't exercise and then on the days I exercise I do it in the afternoons and it sounds so simple but like maybe that's like my boat you know you gotta use it. You gotta do it. And I'm notoriously for like, I don't invite people to do stuff. Like, I don't because I don't want to, but just I don't. It's stressful. Like that anxiety of like, what weekend works for you? Are you six Sundays from tomorrow? Are you like, that doesn't work for me. Duey: And then Woodrus: So. Duey: someone inevitably decides they're going to have a wedding. Woodrus: I guess... Duey: And it's like, ah, uh, but what is this though? Because you're a sort of a philosopher modern. We, we sit around and, uh, we worry about these sort of things, but there were two times in my life. I recall when I didn't one, obviously childhood, right? It's summer, you're off school. Summers feel like a million years long. Like, Woodrus: Yes. Duey: you're in no hurry to do anything because you don't feel like you have to do anything. But there's another time when I remember when we were living at the beach. Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: I felt a very clear sense that I was just doing enough by just existing. It's enough. That's enough. You know. You're doing your work and you're paying your rent, but you're, you know, you're enjoying your life and that's fine. That's enough. But for some reason here, I can't as easily get, like I actually consciously have to try. Here's the analogy. It's like going to the gym. You know, you live in a place where it's easy to go outdoors. You're in shape all the time because you're outside and you're not eating much. It's easy. Right. But when you live here for some reason, like you got to go to the gym, like you got to get up and you got to schedule time and you got to put on the clothes and you got to go to the thing and you got to put on the right music and you got it. It's a whole thing. just to stay in shape, not to get in shape, just to stay in shape. Whereas other places, it's like you're just naturally gonna stay in shape because of the nature of your environment. For Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: some reason, in summertime, like I just can't get into that groove where it's like, I'm good, I don't need

to be anywhere, I'm good. I can just sit here and just, life is long, man. What's up with that? Woodrus: I don't know. Sounds like the people in Vancouver are good at habit stacking. Where, like for me, before COVID I used to bike to work. I don't go to work anymore because I work from home. Where I would stay in shape by biking up and down the big hill. That downhill to work uphill from, you know, home from work, which was perfect. I, for me, I was saying this to a friend the other day, I used to be kind of like that. Where I would be very much you know, from school, you're kind of taught because that's the vacation time and the closer it gets to Labor Day, it's ending, it's ending, it's coming, school starting. There's a finite end to this thing, right? Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: But now, especially since COVID, I'm just season guy. I enjoy the seasons. And when one ends, another one begins. I know Duey: Mmm. Woodrus: that's very like, whatever, whatever. But I used to really have angst about winter coming. Don't like winter, don't like it. Lived in the tropics for years. Don't like winter. But then I realized what I don't like is the stuff. It's like going grocery shopping or Duey: Yep. Woodrus: getting on the bus or waiting for the bus or shoveling. And when COVID happened and I didn't have to go outside anymore, Duey: Winter's beautiful. Woodrus: winter is beautiful. The activities are fun. Duey: I Woodrus: The Duey: know. Woodrus: snow is beautiful. Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: You can go out whenever you want. So now I'm just, I'm still a summer guy because summer is my favorite, but now I'm a season guy. It's like, all right. Well, summer's whatever, but then fall's nice. The leaves change color. Good for hiking, good for walks. And then winter comes and snow is beautiful. So that's kind of my philosophy of it is just I'm a season guy. And, but those things that I want to do don't change. I still want to read for 30 minutes a day. I still want to do some kind of exercise. It doesn't have to be extreme. Could be just go for a walk, do a little bike ride, do a little this, a little that. I can do that in any season. So that's, that's how I look at it. Duey: That's smart. That's smart. I Woodrus: Because Duey: remember. Woodrus: otherwise it's just, it's angst. Like, oh, it's only, oh, we're Duey: It Woodrus: into Duey: is Woodrus: August, Duey: angst. Woodrus: oh, we're into September, oh, and like, but for what? If you ask yourself why do you feel anxious about that? Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: Well, ask myself, and there was no real reason, so. Duey: I hate to bang the Costa Rica gong so often today, but you know, when I was an English teacher and I had to go in and out of classes to maybe three times a day, rainy season was hard, man. Cause it's like, you know, you got to get on the bus and stand in a puddle. That's three feet deep in order to get to an office where you're going to go into line at the hairdryer thing, you know, the hand dryer where you put your shoes under it. So you're not squeaking in class. Like it was this whole thing for years of rainy season. when I started working remotely and even more started working remotely for myself I didn't care if it was rainy season or not. I didn't, it didn't matter. Cause you were just smart enough to not go outside at 3.30. And at 7.30, it's going to be great. So I felt like the same kind of effect that you would hear in winter. Like if my car is parked outside and at seven in Woodrus: Hmm. Duey: the morning, I have to go to get it started and scrape those windshields off. Winter really kind of blows. And by the time I get to the office, I'm exhausted. And I'm peeling off all these clothes and where's my next cup of coffee. It's, it's pretty brutal, but here I just watched the snow gently fall. And I comment on how it's kind of perching on the leaves or on the trees. And Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: you know, we go walking, it's like, Oh, it's 20 below. It's like, Oh, what better bundle up. This will be a fun walk. You know, it's like, Oh, this is going to be an interesting challenge. I wonder how much my beard will freeze today. So I think there's Woodrus: Yeah. Duey: something to what you're obligated to do as part of what you're, you know, deciding to do. Woodrus: I think there's a lot of decision fatigue as well with Canadian summer where, yeah, it's when everyone seems to be available, it seems to be one, you have to do something and deciding is exhausting. And I think there's a lot of anxiety that comes from not being organized. So I know for me, before I, like my, my work tasks or whatever, when I feel more anxious, more often than not, I feel like I haven't done a proper to-do list for that day or that week. and I'm feeling anxious because I feel like there's more to do. And then I look at the list like, oh, well, no, it's just this thing and this thing. And so when I know what I'm doing, I feel, okay, it's manageable. I can do that. I feel like in summer, there's decision fatigue because you could be doing in Canadian summer, there's any other worlds, your oyster, right? You could be going to the beach. You could be doing this. You could be doing that. If you feel like you're doing nothing, anxiety comes, but if you Duey: waste. Woodrus: just, Duey: I'm wasting summer. Woodrus: I'm wasting summer, but if you put do nothing or. go out into your own yard and read for 30 minutes on the list, for me, that's super helpful. Duey: There's something in Quebec as well. There's always an asterisk in this province, where they have moving day on July Woodrus: Mm. Duey: 1. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but for some reason, everyone's lease expires at the same time in the entire province. Woodrus: Sure. Duey: So everyone moves the same day. I don't get it. I really don't. And it's right in the middle of summer. Okay, so We, every year that we don't sign a new lease somewhere, we stay where we're going to stay is actually like half your summer

is given to you because you don't have to spend your summer packing, moving and unpacking and setting up. So we're in the middle of that's what our summer has been is getting ready, packing, moving, and then going to visit family and then going to Vancouver and then coming back. And now it's like, okay, now we're finally home. Woodrus: Mm-hmm. Duey: And the next thing you do is you open up that calendar and you go. man, just like six more weeks of this isn't no good. But I'm going to try and adopt your philosophy. I'm a fall guy. I love autumn so Woodrus: Love it. Duey: much. The crisp air. I'm a jacket person. I'm not a shorts person. I love the leaves. I love everything about it. I'm a Woodrus: You Duey: Halloween. Woodrus: look good in shorts though. Duey: Thank you. I appreciate that. I do work my legs. Uh, Woodrus: Those trunks Duey: I hate leg Woodrus: look Duey: day, Woodrus: good. Duey: but I do it. Thank you. So, but the point is now, uh, I'm going to try this out and just go, you know what? I love the season. Woodrus: I think too, an add-on to that is what we talked about before, where if you live a life where you don't have the ability to move about and those eight weeks of summer are your only eight weeks of good weather, enjoyment, doing whatever, I can see the angst, right? Where it's over, kids are back to school. Well, ten more months until I can do what I want again, Duey: Yep. Woodrus: versus okay, November There's super cheap flights everywhere in November. November is, it sucks in Canada. Duey: Right. Woodrus: It's like the worst weather month there is. I love Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: to go for a week or half a week or whatever sometime in November or February to break up the winter somewhere where there's good weather. And if you can break up the year that way, I think you don't have that 10 more months until we have good weather again. And then Canada, summer, sometimes it just sucks. Like it is, it's just a cold summer. And then, oh, well, maybe next year. I think if you, if you do break it up. and you have that, as Rami would say, that rich life or whatever you want that to be, for us breaking it up with a couple of winter trips, it does make a big difference. Duey: Europeans have about a thousand years on us. Um, Woodrus: Yep. Duey: when it comes to their, how they're scheduling their lives, they, they take two months off, you know, at least one month where they're complete, they're actually off work Woodrus: You ever Duey: the whole Woodrus: send Duey: month. Woodrus: an email to someone in Europe in July? They Duey: What's the point? Woodrus: auto Duey: There's Woodrus: respond Duey: no point. Woodrus: with, Duey: Yep. Woodrus: I've gone to the woods for eight weeks. I'll get back to you in September. Duey: Exactly. We have European clients and it's, it's bananas, but very smart. Woodrus: Yeah. Duey: And I don't know why. Like, I guess I could do that. I could just say, you know what? You give her one the heads up and you put all the necessary pieces in play and you just go, I'm just not around for August. Woodrus: I'm a big fan of what's the worst that could happen and it's never that bad. It's Duey: It's never that bad. Woodrus: never Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: that bad. Like what would happen? Like, people would just say okay. Like what else would they Duey: Yeah, Woodrus: say? Duey: there's not a lot of like, I'm never doing business with that person because he took a vacation. You know, it's Woodrus: I'm Duey: pretty Woodrus: out. Duey: ridiculous. But at the same time, I mean, maybe there's something to it. Maybe maybe we could just shut the whole company down for like a month. That's it just for August. We don't we don't work now that we can do that. Woodrus: Hahahaha Duey: It wouldn't work. But there's something to it. The Europeans know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. They're Woodrus: You Duey: melting Woodrus: could do Duey: right Woodrus: something, Duey: now, but they know Woodrus: maybe, Duey: what they're Woodrus: I don't Duey: doing. Woodrus: know if you have people on different parts of the world, but you could shut down one part of the world for August, and then the other people would, in February, they get to shut down or something. Duey: That's Woodrus: There's Duey: an idea. Woodrus: some kind Duey: That's Woodrus: of flipped, Duey: an idea. Woodrus: you know. Duey: We'll play around with it. Woodrus: We're doing a, I know we're gonna go here, but we're doing something called a 10 and 10, just to put a bow on the, making conscious decisions to do things. Duey: What's a 10 and 10? Woodrus: A 10 and 10 is we're writing down 10 trips we wanna take for the next 10 years. Duey: Oh, Woodrus: One trip a year for Duey: OK. Woodrus: 10 years. And we're compiling this list. And the goal is to have it finished by the end of, by the end of summer, by the end of August. Duey: Okay, Woodrus: We have a few Duey: the Woodrus: things. Duey: list, the list, have the list finished. Woodrus: Have the list finished, yes. And then make Duey: Like you Woodrus: a, Duey: each write 10 or you're co-writing 10. Woodrus: we're co-writing. There are some rules to this that we've concocted. Duey: Okay, I'm gonna stop talking. Go ahead. Woodrus: But basically, yes. We're going to co-construct the list of 10. Each of us has one that we can just decide, regardless of the other's feelings towards it. We have one that we can do that's going to be on the list that no veto power, basically. and the other eight we need to agree. And basically we're going to, we want to just attend places that we really want to go and we're going to do it in the next decade. Duey: this. I love this. Did you get this from somewhere else? Or did you guys just kind of like conjure Woodrus: No, Duey: this up? Woodrus: I think she just created, she came up with it. Duey: I like Woodrus: And Duey: this Woodrus: I was Duey: idea. Woodrus: like, this is great. So just a concerted effort of instead of, you know, we should take a trip versus no, here's the list. Duey: Right. Woodrus: And we can switch out one per year kind of thing. So you're not like, you know, getting married to the list per se, but you can't, we only change out one a year. And Duey: Okay. Woodrus: the only kind of asterisks is we're not choosing locations. Like I wanna go to France, for example. We're... choosing it for an activity that we would do Duey: Oh Woodrus: in that location. Duey: in Woodrus: Exactly, Duey: Switzerland. Woodrus: exactly. So one for me is I want to see the Northern Lights. Duey: Hey, you and Atty would have a great time. You would. Woodrus: So Iceland is going to be on the list. Duey: Nice. That's how you do it. I like this a lot. Woodrus: Yep. Duey: This is really, have you guys already smacked down? Like I'm gaming this out. Here's, here's our vetoes. Like are there any in there? Woodrus: No, not yet. Not yet. What I like about us together is we're pretty open and we love the travel and we kind of have similar tastes. But I mean, obviously there's going to be one or two that we're like, yeah, I'm not crazy about it, but I'll go. So we're not going to like screw the other one over. But you know, we're pretty open about where we want to go each continent as well, except for Antarctica. Duey: So Woodrus: So Duey: it's Woodrus: it Duey: like, Woodrus: will be represented. Duey: I want to see the cherry blossoms in Japan. Woodrus: Yeah. Duey: I really like that a lot. Woodrus: Exactly. Or like, Duey: I like it Woodrus: I Duey: a Woodrus: don't Duey: lot. Woodrus: know, do the Pablo Escobar tour in Medellin or something like Duey: I like Woodrus: s- Duey: it because you're focusing on the experience rather than the, you know, ticking it off, putting the pin in the map. Woodrus: Yes. Riverboat cruise in Europe, right? Duey: Man, see, I wanna go on these. You're telling me about the things that I wanna do. Woodrus: Hehehehe Duey: I heard the river cruises are great because you get to see the oldest parts of the city. Woodrus: And as we're kind of researching, we're finding out different places. Like there's a town in France, which is like the Venice of France, where it's like in the mountains, but it's, it's watered. It's a water town. Looks like Venice, not French version. So it's like, we'd never heard of that before, but that looks really interesting. So a 10 and a 10 and 10 is what we're calling it. Duey: I love this. A 10 and 10. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what your first one is if it isn't already on the on the books. Yeah, you know, you've made me think a lot. That's what these shows do. So I guess I guess we're good. Are we gonna leave it there? Woodrus: I think so. Duey: Yeah. Woodrus: I think so. I didn't remember how we do this show, but I think this was this was all right. I don't Duey: I don't know. Hi, mom. Woodrus: know. Hello, Mom.