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rent a car. And I had a job lined up after college. Long story short, I got like three speeding tickets in my last semester of college and lost my job and I panicked because I'm like, I'm graduating in a month. I don't have a job and it felt like this huge thing that's horrible and which was really not the end of the world. So I kind of panicked and I picked the first job like I got accepted to and it was a cold calling job. And I just really, really hated it. And gam ⁓ poker had just been legalized in Jersey. And, you know, I came from a gambling a big Irish family. So gambling was like not the most foreign thing. ⁓ and I just started picking it up and I got like really obsessed really quickly. And I The job being so horrible kind of exacerbated it, you know, nine to five. And I get home and I just poker. It was just like six to ten poker, poker, poker. And after three months, I was like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, I had like five thousand dollars or no, not even like three thousand dollars. And I was like, I'm going for it. I had no expenses because I lived at home at this point. And and and ⁓ part of it is like, ⁓ you know, it's so hard to date when you're at your parents, and I was like, I want to go out on my own. And I ended up picking like one of the most expensive. I was in Hoboken. one of the most expensive cities in New Jersey, right across from the city. I picked an apartment which was thirteen hundred dollars a month with a sixty five hundred dollar bankroll. Wasn't smart. Met my wife at the time, I think my first year in Hoboken. And I also knew I would just I I knew I had the tools to be good, but I was like I just didn't know where to start. So I did a C F P ⁓ which was huge for me. But ⁓ it was a half my income for basically a year. Yeah. And I was already so that first whole year it was Obviously you were scraping by, scraping by, learned a ton, really loved where we were, but wanted a house. So I took my first bankroll thing as I had a hundred thousand dollar roll and went down to about thirty ⁓ to buy our first home. So that was kind of one ⁓ where I was I wasn't playing too many high stakes that just it didn't run as often. ⁓ but then kind of brought down to thirty and now I have a mortgage. And the mortgage was it was a smaller house. It was, you like two thousand dollars. And kinda had to build myself up for another year. ⁓ and that that's where kind of I kinda had my breakthrough and I went from like two hundred, five hundred to like was shotting two hundred ⁓ twenty K in like six months and it was like, ⁓ my god, I made it like now it's ⁓ it's all smooth sailing from here. ⁓ this is w this was a very important moment. ⁓ Me and my wife, my wife has a heart condition. She couldn't carry her own children. And that was something we we had always talked about wanting kids. ⁓ so we were going through surrogacy. and we ended up doing that. And my my cousin, while we were on a surrogacy list, offered to carry for us as well. So we actually had

like two surrogacies at the same time. ⁓ wow. ⁓ which was ⁓ a lot and ⁓ was great. It was expensive, even with my cousin's help. So ⁓ I had this big upswing and and now I had like a lot of money. I'd like mid six figure bankroll and I really that was from this stretch, it was like a a year stretch where I was like, ⁓ wow man, I really don't have to worry about you know money and and I noticed that 'cause you're playing high stakes, there were days I lost fifty thousand, but it it's more of a percentage. You know, if I'm losing ten to fifteen percent of my bankroll, it didn't really didn't hurt as much 'cause you know, I remember I think the worst day I ever felt was when I lost six hundred dollars, which was Like sixty percent of my bankroll, my first year. It hurts so much more. ⁓ whereas this you were kinda like, I'll be okay. ⁓ but long story short, ⁓ we had the surrogacy, our second surrogacy surrogate ended up having twins. And now we have three. Yes. So it was a shock. It was very surprising. We got like a very small starter home, like thirteen hundred and I needed an office to play. Yeah. So we were like, ⁓ we need a new house now. And, you know, I think my biggest dream was to like I'm not the biggest material guy, but I always wanted like a nice big house. And this is where I think I was a little like naive. I I had zero kids at this time and I wanted that dream house and be like, okay, and go from there. And the surrogacy ended up spa it cost us about two hundred something thousand, two ten, two fifteen. And then I ended up ⁓ probably going a little over budget with the house and getting the dream house. ⁓ which I'm in today still, but basically I had like a seven hundred and fifty thousand dollar bankroll ⁓ that went down to about a hundred. Yep. And I think a little of it was naivety because I had ran really well that the I had gotten a lot better, but I ran really well. And a hundred K playing high stakes is is just insanely nuts now. Yeah. And I think the biggest difference is, you know, being a parent's a little bit of an unknown and I was a little naive to s like how that was gonna change. You know, my wife, she's great and she was very under so she was she would really help me 'cause I would work late and she would be getting up with the kids and letting me sleep. So she knew like it wasn't we were really on the same page there, but ⁓ the kids just weren't really sleeping. Yeah. And that was really tough and we we didn't know this till later, but my my twins ⁓ had autism and that is they have a very hard time sleeping in general. ⁓ that's like a very common symptom as as a like a newborn. So like that first year we're getting like three, four. And I was just like, All right, I need to get a night nanny because you're just not gonna survive. And then we got a real nanny and that because I was just like, I'm I just don't have enough time to do everything. Well also I mean high stakes poker, you need sleep. Yeah. Yeah you lose a lot

of edge. And and I that was really what kind of stirred me to PLO. I you I was playing No Limit my entire time and I remember feeling in t in like two thousand twenty one, ⁓ like and part of it was this huge upswing, but I was like, Wow man, I really feel like I have an edge over a lot of players. Like I feel like ⁓ you know, I feel like I'm gonna be a star. I played a lot of like really strong players and I felt there's like a validation, like, ⁓ I think I have an edge against this guy and he's like he's really good. And it gives like a burgeoning confidence. And candidly, I think my first two years, ⁓ and this is like the beauty of poker, it sucked then, but it it I really kind of appreciate in a sense is that a lot of the guys who I was better than in two thousand twenty and two thousand twenty one and they were talented players, they passed me during the stage. And that that was a little tough, but they they incr they had definitely worked on their game and they were talented. And I kind of noticed I went from like this top perch to like, ⁓ I'm still winning a lot, but I'm not the I can't hold the games anymore. These guys are like definitively better. ⁓ and now you're like, okay, now you're gonna kinda you gotta do table select a little bit more. So that's kind of brought me to the PLO because I was like, you know, I I know I can still win here, but I don't know if I can get back to that point where I am now. It was more of like situational and I I had seen with PLO I like, man, this game is really complex and it it felt a lot more unsolved as far as like content. So yeah, that basically was it almost felt like the switch came out of necessity. My first year after buying the house. I ⁓ didn't have a great high stakes year, but I made two hundred thousand dollars, which is like really great. And I still lost money, you know, on the year with my expenses. And I was just like that's kind of where I I started to get really nervous and ⁓ Yeah, that's where it gets scary that yeah when you see an eye. For sure. And I was telling my wife, it's like Poker's already hard enough and it feels like you have a handicap on it. You know, like you gotta golf, like you gotta mi you know, minus four, or you know, you gotta ⁓ Do extra, it makes it hard. And I don't think I played my best because of it either. ⁓ you you have this like weight on your back. When I say ninety percent, like it was I got great things. There there was a cost to it, like, ⁓ I got my house and I got my my children worth worth anything, but ⁓ you know, it it put on a lot of stress and and hardship and things like that financially. ⁓ that really I'm I'm I I feel the lights at the end of the tunnel, but this was it had drastic ⁓ effects. for the next few years. You can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Is that because I mean you don't have these huge expenses coming up, presumably, and you feel like you're getting ahead of it now? Well, a big thing is when they got to school, like the nanny, we we paid like you know, nanny's it was about like five thousand a month. ⁓ it's very expensive. So that was like a big it was like twenty five percent cut in expenses, which was really nice. And then I I, you know, the PLO gamble like switched off. I had my best year ever last year. ⁓ and that was like in this time, like candidly and I can say it 'cause I finally paid it off now, but I was so beh I was behind on I wasn't paying my taxes. I was taking the penalties 'cause I couldn't I couldn't have the bankroll needed to play and pay the penalties. ⁓ so I had this big year, I paid off paid off so we don't have to add anything. The government's not after me. Yeah. but yeah, like that was I I had that big year and ⁓ which was last year. And I felt really grateful because I remember thinking like the first year after my kids, I was like, ⁓ well, you know, maybe that was my my my fifteen minutes. Maybe that was my, you know, because it you never really know when your bell curve this was the peak and when it's not. ⁓ so I was thinking like, ⁓ I don't you know, I I might not get back to those stakes again or or things like that. So ⁓ being a little older now and like after last year, I feel like very grateful ⁓ to even have the opportunity to keep playing and and competing. 'Cause it's a lot of fun still, you know, and that that makes it easier. It's interesting 'cause it's like the you may feel like you made big mistakes, but it's ⁓ I could very well see that had you not made this home purchase and had you not had that experience, you'd be doing it now for a higher price. And you know, it it was it was a good to learn the lesson when you did. That's what so hard about it because it was like, Well, I I have three kids coming. I want them to be in a great community with a great school system. And and maybe that was me telling it so I can have a nice house. But that was really and then also not worry about it. It seems like you're you know, you're not somebody who is has kind of a scarcity mindset, is afraid of like would you say you're somebody who you think it's likely gonna work out? I would say I'm I'm a pretty positive person. I think sometimes like I got a little bit down because like I said, you y I had all this success and now I was like grinding myself up and I'm there was some like man, I'm you know, maybe entitlemental, like ⁓ I'm too good like not or I'm like it sucks or just sucks. It sucks that I have to kinda grind my way up. Not fair. Not fair. Yeah. That was like, man, it's not fair, but then I really think about it. I'm like, Well, I you know I'm living in a beautiful home. I I will say there was a bunch of gratitude because I met a lot of people during the surrogate process who put all their eggs in one. And I'm really grateful that I had my at that point my best year during this process. And I didn't have to worry about that happening. So I was like, there's a lot to be grateful for. And I I think it's more I'm very

competitive. So it's like I still want I I didn't accomplish all my poker goals. 'Cause I I felt like I got to the top so quickly or where I where I work and then I had to go down. So it's kept me motivated and there's still a lot I want to accomplish. And and the nice thing about being, you know, switching to PLO was it's so stimulating. You're learning a whole new game. There's I f I find it a lot more complex than No Limit 'cause the game trees l way more branches, all that stuff. Different stack depths are a lot more common than than No Limit. So it's definitely kept me stimulated. And so I mean it sounds like perhaps mistakes were made, and you've kind of come out of it. And you're heading in a good direction in in multiple areas. What's wrong? What's what worries you or or what is not where you want it to be? I think, you know, I w I should say more stable, but I think there's still like a slightly fear there's like that slight fear like ⁓ it could go bad again quickly and and I think that was you know, I was I talked to you briefly when you joined our breakouts and I was going through a downswing and and that was tough too. 'Cause it it can happen so quickly with PLO. Where basically ⁓ you know, I had this amazing year last year and then I immediately you know and I I all that profit was mostly used to pay off debt, right? It paid off all all these taxes. So it was a great year, but it was really used to pay off all debt and I you know, my bankroll entering the year was only like two hundred thousand dollars. Now obviously like I I have like equity in the house and and things like that. So if things got desperate I can I could take that, but then I was down like seventy five thousand in an instant, which is like forty percent. And it hits a little bit different when you have like when I I've lost forty percent actually quite a fit, but it was much easier when it was just you and you didn't have all these like expenses and stuff like that. And and and the other like financial thing is, you know, my boys have autism and insurance is tough in Jersey, especially if you're a poker player. So even even with the lack of nanny, like I'm paying can fifteen a little over fifteen thousand dollars a month. So there is and that was that was tough when I had to be pick and choose my spots with high stakes. Where you know, 15k on like mid stakes is tough where where you're mostly relying on like five ten and ten twenty. So I think there's always that fear of like, ⁓ you know, backsliding. I think I do a good job managing my ego, but you know, these decisions sometimes like I think I have an edge on some players that heads up, but PLO heads up, I mean, you know better than anybody here. You know better than anybody. And and that's the thing, like, well, what's the threshold for me? Because if even if I'm beating somebody like at a solid rate, like four or five bigs, if if I play them, even at like two point five K PLO, yeah, you could lose fifty K in an instant. It's hard because I also when we go back to that decision point, right, where I bought my dream house, you know, there's and I don't try to get hung up on it too much, but there's this also thing where like, how much future EV did you cost yourself? You know, because one of my goals was to be set for life. What if I bought a more plain home and I still had a f you know, because I know I lost a lot of E V, it's a lot easier to make money when you have a bigger bankroll. That's I think just the basic truth. Well, I mean you do have a a challenge with because you're you're ahead of it now, but it's still like you gotta pull away ⁓ to to get where you wanna go and especially with poker where, you know, a given month or year can can not go the way you want it to. How much is how much roughly do you spend a year? Spend a year and Overall, like I so in mandatory expenses. Two hundred and twenty thousand, I would say. So yeah, there's like ⁓ so that's like when I was I I actually during this time that was like tough. I had to I liquefied my retirement because it was like I had two back to back years where I made like two hundred where I like, ⁓ my god, I'm loot like I'm like it's like a business almost. Like, ⁓ the cash flow's not coming in as much. And then next year I made a little bit more, but it's just like it was a little like dispiriting. To make what is like a top one percent income in poker and just being like, ⁓ like break I'm break even and I'm I'm making money. And then even last year, like I had the best year of my career. And I I remember having like these kind of like aggravating thoughts. Like I just had a crazy year last year and I'm like already stressing again because of one like very it can like not a crazy downswing. I lost fifteen buy ins at five K. It can it's nothing. ⁓ so I think that was like frustrating and I think maybe you know I've talked to my wife about this for the last three years it's basically been I've been in this buffer of 150K to 250 K and every time I win it's just going to pay off things. So there does feel like a stunt of growth almost. You know, even though it's not true, even though it is going someplace, you kind of feel a little pigeonholed. ⁓ and maybe that's why I I actually was talking to my team when I had this like very I I felt like I didn't handle it. particularly well. Maybe that was because I came off a year where I had very little adversity and now I was immediately met with some adversity. But yeah, that was that was something that you know, maybe it was I I even said to them, ⁓ is you're so close that it kinda hurts when you take a even a backward step. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean the the boring the boring advice you'll get ⁓ and it but it sounds like it's more challenging than than this is is thinking about how you can reduce expenses. But it sounds like there's a lot that you can't easily reduce. Yeah. That Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean that's the thing, like and I could be better

because I'm very my wife is much she's much better than me with like I can be a little like laissez faire about like, ⁓ who cares? It's twenty dollar subscription, right? 'Cause I'm like in the grand scheme of things like and she's just like, you know, do you want me to cancel my nails? And I'm like, No, I want you to do that for yourself. But you're like, she's so she's great with that. And same, like if I she'll put in her calendar like subscription ends here, make sure to cancel. And you know, I've always been like, ⁓ I guess I'll do another year of this. You know, I missed it. ⁓ but yeah, like that's that's the thing is like a lot of it is ⁓ you know health insurance, ⁓ the the boys treatments and then the mortgage. ⁓ so it's kind of and that also because there's you know that's going to be there at least in the short term So there's definitely I'm o I'm always thinking like I really need to keep this level up for at least a few more years. And I I do feel confident about that as long as, you know, outside forces that we can't control, you know, to interfere with that be AI or what what or not. ⁓ and I try not to worry about that too much just 'cause I we don't have any control over that. But that does sometimes add to the stress, you know, sometimes. Yeah. No, I mean I think you're you're like me in that. And I think this is more good than bad that I do I've always felt like it'll work out and I'll figure it out when I get there. and I and you know, we're usually right. Right, right. It does though it does feel like I mean it's it's tough to consistently earn three hundred K plus and still not have much going to savings investments. And it really, you know, five years of that where, you know, you could have, let's just say, saved a hundred K a year is a is a big difference, ⁓ in terms of where you're at. And so I mean, I the thing I like to always ask about or or the path I like to go down always because so there there's there's expenses and there's income. ⁓ And income stuff is like how do I improve at poker? What other opportunities do I take? And so on and so forth. And that's also the more interesting and fun part. On the expenses, like I do think it's worth, even though maybe 95% of the time the answer is gonna be, no, this is how it is, exploring like what if you removed any perception of like have-tos? So, you know, what if ⁓ like well I'll put it this way, what if you had to design a life where your mandatory expenses go from 220? Down to 100. And so what would you have to do to do that? You probably would have to move out of the house, maybe since you have a good ⁓ good interest rate, rent it out. I don't know how what insurance is like outside of Jersey and like how how different it would be, but it could be it could mean that. Like I I think it's a worthwhile exercise to just think how how would you do it if you had to? And then if you did that. Obviously there are the downsides. And and the the reason I I like to suspend disbelief is because it's very easy, I'm sure. And I mean I don't know all the details, but it's very easy to say, ⁓ I can't leave Jersey because of this and I can't right, you know, do XYZ. ⁓ but just pretending that you could, how how would you do it to get down to the hundred K? Yeah, I mean that pro well, you know, especially with the market, like probably sell the house, you know, top of the market. And then ⁓ well, but you could you could also keep it like I said, keep it and rent it out if you if you're paying low interest is is not a bad idea too. But I mean I'm thinking I have the right yeah then where do we live? That's the only thing. Yeah. I guess that's the only thing. And then also the thing, yeah. It's just tough with the kids that I'm just thinking about the kids. ⁓ you know it's funny I really may and maybe this is more of my like I could definitely be sharper on this because I when I'm thinking about this, I'm almost never because I'm like, ⁓ these are set. And I don't look around maybe the margins as much as about cutting stuff. I'm always thinking about, well, how do I increase my income? And to be clear, like I yeah, I'm the same way. And that's that's why I think both of us would know how. Well, or at least could learn how if we said, Okay, on the optional things, let's figure out where we cut it down. Income is the thing that you, you know, have more. Well, it can make a bigger difference. Or what I just said, which is what if what if the expenses could be massively different? Which, like I said, ninety five percent chance the answer is gonna be no. But I think it's still worth exploring because all of the reasons that it would be a no, you know, put that side by side with how would it feel to have seventy five hundred a month and mandatory expenses. I mean, I don't know if it's possible, but you know what I mean? And you put ⁓ side by side and it might not seem as crazy. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that would make a bit 'cause I could tell you how we f like and I loved our nanny, she was so good with the kids, but I tell you, like, it felt it was a big 'cause it was like twenty five percent cut off. Like and that was it just made a lot of difference. It adds up, you know, you're you basically have a full time employee you're paying for on top of, you know, all the other things. So yeah, that did feel great and you know, school ⁓ school felt great too because you're like, ⁓ like you know, that's one thing. Like, ⁓ my daughter missed a cut off, so we had to pay for like private school, which is it's not not it's not like it's not like college, but it's not nothing, and she'll go to public soon. So that'll be a one way, like a a nice little cut. You know, probably one thing like and I don't know how much of a big difference is, we probably could cut like our subscriptions to like TV shows and Netflix and stuff like that. But again, like I want to go the extreme, like with the extreme thing. So you sell the house and you sell the

house or you keep it and rent it. I think keeping it and renting it, and then you would just rent the new place, not buy. Okay. ⁓ and then your rental income from this would be more than you're paying in rent and the other. Yeah. hopefully by quite a bit. But okay, let's say that you sold, which ⁓ Again, I know I know this probably not gonna happen. It's not the plan, but ⁓ you sell and you buy, how much could the difference be? Realistically. Probably a lot. Like probably like I mean, New Jersey is very expensive in general, but yeah, I mean, my house is worth quite a bit of money and I have a decent amount of equity in it, like thirty five percent. So I could downsize like and still fit all the kids. Yeah, probably like six hundred thousand, maybe. Yeah. So yeah, like that like Yeah, I think that's like good to just get my brain flowing, maybe. Yeah. So let's say you do that and I I'm so I'm ignorant about this, but you mentioned I mean the insurance was crazy expensive. You mentioned Jersey. Do you know how different it is state to state? Well, you know, the thing is it was so I had to go to through the marketplace. Yeah, it's kind of a mess. I ended up paying fifty five thousand last year and in my ⁓ Health insurance. I also just because of all the expenses, I I felt like I had to get ⁓ life insurance. So I did get a a policy for that as well. I don't think like if I wanted to risk it, I guess like, you know, but like that felt like probably not a smart thing. ⁓ yeah, the health insurance is tough. Like, I mean, the biggest thing and and this was a big talking point is when before we had kids, my wife was actually working. She worked in the city and she had a good job and Like that was something we really talked about 'cause and it she enjoyed working, you know, she was like ambitious and I think she made a big sacrifice with basically staying at home. Yeah. So I think maybe like the one thing is because insurance is such a big expense. I think maybe one thing we could talk about is like while you know, the kids are in school now, would you maybe find like even a part time job where you can get coverage? Yeah, I mean 55,000 plus she'll bring in some income. May maybe you have to spend some of it on extra help. Right, right. Which but I mean it it nets out pretty positive. And and I mean, I don't I'm not gonna pull up a you know, Google Sheets and and and write out a spreadsheet, but fifty thousand saved a year. And you know it it like I I do think it's worth really Playing this out and actually sitting down and doing some math about what your life looks like in five years under a cup like three different scenarios of income. Right. And and seeing how you feel about it. Because yes, I am pretty sure you keep doing doing what you're doing and make it work. But then, you know, there's a good chance you still are needing to keep keep trying to stay ahead. I think that's pretty good because I think I can be a little like dismissive of like. We can't really change our expenses and and maybe be a little bit dis even of the smaller stuff, like dismissive, like, ⁓ like you know, what's it what's you know, because it does add up, like what's the difference of three hundred dollars when we're paying like fifteen? But obviously compounding it over and over and you you had that tool with the the variance and that's something and even when we did our goals, we did our twenty you know, the outrageous goal. And really the outrageous goal is gonna completely depend on variants. The other two goals I think won't, but the outrageous one like a hundred percent will. And I would say from like my last five years, it's like the variants of my high stakes have have dictated a lot how my years have gone. And like the years I kind of lost a little bit of money. I didn't run good at high stakes. And the reality is that it's they these games don't run very often as it is. So you're getting like thirty to forty thousand hands a year. Yeah. And you're kind of at the mercy. And I think that is something like even, you know, even this year I'm I'm quite behind last year's pace. But it really it's all it all had to do with it's the higher stakes stuff. And it could change very quickly too. So I try to tell myself, even when it's going bad, like the one of the beautiful parts of the game is like it can change really quickly, good and bad, which is is is it's a double edged sword. But I've been there, I've been there when I'm like, ⁓ man, you know, I'm playing 200 and four months later, I was like playing high stakes with All these well known players or you know, I was playing Doug Polk heads up and and no limit before he played Negranu and I like felt almost surreal. So it can change quickly. But yeah, I think I want to be in this position to like grab the opportunity when it comes. And yeah. And a big part of that is putting myself in that financial situation. Yeah. And there is, like you said, like the feeling you got when you didn't need to have the nanny employed anymore. There is an element of that like Even if through hard work and focusing on how to increase your income, you could make whatever. You let's say you add 70 K in EV, saving 40 K a year in EV might actually be more calming mentally. ⁓ the impact would not be quite well, actually with taxes, maybe it could be a similar impact. But ⁓ I I think it's really worth looking hard at and ⁓ and playing it out. Truly playing it out. I I think there's also a mental thing of it's a lot easier when you're facing that expense worth seventy five hundred instead of fifteen. Looking at expenses, I'm more stingy with like, ⁓ we don't need to cut that. Whereas when it comes to like improving my poker game, I'm actually the opposite. I'm just like, you know, take take my money. I've spent like a lot I spent so and it's Partially because that's what's worked for me. Like I've done CFPs and even with PLO, because the CFP works so well for me. I I worked with like a

high six pro and I was like, all right, ⁓ you take my income for like we a half year. And I got to and I I want to learn from like one of the best and that worked out great for me too. But like I didn't feel you know, I I know some people were like, ⁓ I had to give up fifty thousand and but I was like, you know, it pays for itself like fifty times over and But it it I find it a little strange that I'm very like, yeah, take it. Like I wanna learn, but with I'm kind of more stingy on the expenses part. It's I mean, it's not abnormal at all. I th and I I mean I'm I very much ⁓ yeah, take my money to make me better at my job. Right. Yeah. And ⁓ and I mean it's cause it's an investment. And I think that maybe I don't know, I don't this is a theory, but maybe being poker players it's easier for us to see it that way because we're already Like we're risking our money all the time. So it's just kind of another bet that ⁓ it's gonna return like give us positive ROI. And even if it if it falls a little bit short, like, ⁓ well, we made a slightly bad bet, that's fine. ⁓ what Think for a second of where want to take this. ⁓ so I I don't think we need to harp on it anymore. I would like you to to do that exercise and just like play out, play out. ⁓ you could pick like three different levels of income and then three different, maybe three different paths of like cut up my expenses to this, cut my expenses this. You don't have to necessarily figure out how you're gonna cut the expenses to that yet. Okay. I like the that that's I'll tell you it sounds It feels ch it feels a little daunting. But maybe that that's probably the good wow, probably why I should do it. Super quick note before we dive back in. Today's guest is a member of Beyond the Game, my application only coaching program and community. BTG is built for poker players who want to achieve more and is focused on everything beyond on the table strategy, mindset, decision making, career, life. We have a lot of conversations like the one that I'm having today. If that interests you and you want to learn more, head to joinBTG.com. Back to the session. Do that exercise. Let me know how it goes. And let's talk about. Increasing EV. So what what range of stakes do you play now? So I play ⁓ five hundred to five K and I have experience both with six max and heads up. So I will play play that. ⁓ right now I'm not really because of the restrictions, I'm not really playing heads up five K, but I have when I you he like I said, I'm very aggressive. Like if I have fifty to sixty buy-ins I have no problem and but ⁓ I will say one thing I I've gotten better as I've gotten older is I'm very like disciplined as far as walking away. So like if I have to you know, if I have to not play it again I will, but I have no problem like ⁓ I five ions let's let's see. ⁓ but yeah, that's that's I think for me, ⁓ that is the way increasing it. And I think the biggest thing for me is like volume. I think that's maybe a weakness I've

had my entire career. ⁓ when I think I've steadily like very steadily improved it. Last year was actually my I put my most volume in a year, ⁓ which felt really good just because I'm so much more busier. But I played ⁓ thousand and seventy hours last year and that was my biggest volume year. So which is not like not that crazy. ⁓ And I think that's something I can improve on. And I think like early on in BTG, I I kinda told you I ⁓ sometimes struggled with my like night sessions, especially if I won early and you know, you're just like, ⁓ I'm with my wife, I'm s the kids are down, like it's so nice to just like not put myself ⁓ in maybe a high stress environment. Yeah, and just like soak it up and enjoy it. And ⁓ I've done a better job with that for sure. There are still some days where, you know, I'm like, ⁓ I don't know. And especially like going through a downswing, I think that was like a little tougher, but or I honestly I should say the opposite. I'm w during the downswing I actually was pretty on my point with everything, kinda grinding through it. ⁓ I should say like it's funny I got through the downswing. I started upswinging and then like I had been very consistent, like, ⁓ I'm like hitting my hours every week and then I had a big upswing. I made like, you know, seventy K in two weeks and first we like first week I missed it. And I don't know if it like, ⁓ I need a deep breath, but I think, you know, I've talked to my team is basically like reducing those it's okay to have a day like that, but like don't have disaster weeks. And ⁓ So that's one thing and then improving my PLO game ⁓ it means a lot 'cause I I feel like I can get way better. Like there's a lot of things I feel like I can improve. ⁓ and I I was telling people this and it's not meant to be an insult, but I feel like with PLO I'm like we're like we're all just varying degrees of bad. I tell everybody. ⁓ which is not meant as an insult, it's just it's it's such a hard game to play really well in a lot of spots and ⁓ So yeah, I f that's like kinda why I was like, ⁓ I can just increase like there's so many ways to increase it. ⁓ especially, you know, new tools, new courses, ⁓ getting more familiar with that, getting more familiar with the players you're playing. ⁓ trying to be ⁓ you know, and the one good thing about struggling or going through a downswing is like you get other players. I had a few other players look at my my stuff as well and you get a few eyes on things you may not have noticed. ⁓ So yeah, I think increasing the E V, I'm I'm I'm pretty analytical about that. But like I would say like the volume thing is one thing that has kind of been a little hard to figure out because I still I love playing poker. ⁓ and I'm not a person who can like I'm just never been a player who some people can who can grind like ten hours straight and you know, especially like heads up, I always found it very, very draining. ⁓ but I'm I'll I'll you know, I can I can play five hours a day if I take my breaks in between. ⁓ but like it's those it's I think mitigating those days, you know, where I only play two hours and I don't play, or I, you know, find an excuse. ⁓ I want to spend time with my kid, or ⁓ I wanna play basketball or whatever. And it's a lot easier. I've noticed the trend is well, if I'm in upswinging or whereas that didn't happen. I was those excuses didn't exist when I was getting a curves, you know. I was like, Okay, well, like that determination's like, ⁓ I gotta play and Maybe a little of it was financial pressure, but it's also like pr you know, you're locked in a little bit. And maybe it feels like taking your foot off the gas a little bit. Yeah. I again people are different. Some people put in more volume when winning and less when losing. I think yours is more common. Is there a Let's say you've had a a good early session. Could you play the later session and like cap your stakes at one K or something? Like would would you lose a lot of EV and would that change your behavior, you think? I see the thing is I you know what I really have a hard time do is like starting a session sometimes. If if I f feel like I've I start a session and I'm in, I'm like after the first 10 minutes, I'm in. Mm-hmm. I personally and and this is just me, I I rare I really don't have a stop loss. Cause I'm usually like if I've ever got I've had you know God. ⁓ to be clear, maybe you already know, but I was just saying like s cap the stakes that you play. Like don't play five K because then like let's say you won twelve K in the morning. Mm-hmm. You don't really put that at risk if you're playing five hundred and one K. Right. Yeah, and that's like And it seems like kind of like paradoxical 'cause I'm like, I don't want to play, right? But then if I'm playing and I'm like, ⁓ there's this like Yeah. Five K game I like I can't do that. I know myself. I like there's like I have to play. You know what mean? And that's completely fair like right, it makes no logical sense. Like 'cause the whole and I think that's funny about the human brain because I'm like, yeah, I just don't want to start, I just want to lock it up. But then when I'm playing, I'm like, ⁓ my god, there's this two K game and it's I'm winning plenty, like like that, you know, it's it's kind of like ⁓ Yeah, like if I was playing a big live game and I I've had that happen where I've played a game like where, you know, a ten K game where I had to sell a little bit of my action and once I'm in there I just can't I can't like lock it up. ⁓ Do you think we could 'cause it feel I don't know if it's an ego thing or just like it feels like it could be an ego thing, but it feels like more like, ⁓ my God, I'm like just like this is And it could be like the scarcity of the games, but I'm like, it doesn't happen. Those games don't happen too much. I d I kinda wanna maximize it. ⁓ and sometimes it works out, but I I know also some of the biggest sessions I've ever had were putting

myself in those sp spots. I think the biggest session I ever had was like I was playing No Limit and I was it was a twenty K game and I lost two buy ins really quickly actually and I was down forty K. And I sold I think I only sold like twenty percent. And I I did stick up with it and I had my biggest day ever. I think I went a little under a hundred and I was just and so I I normally like unless I've notice myself flipping mentally, I have a really hard time. I don't know if that seems kind of odd, but No, I think everybody's different and I don't think it's a necessarily a problem. I think you I think you would know if it was a problem. You would know if you've been fooling yourself in the past and playing Thinking you're sharp and realizing after the fact, no, I was actually just tilted and playing badly. I I think you would know that. ⁓ is there some way we can trick you into seeing, you know, a week as a session? Like what even if it's like as silly as you put like a giant sticky note on the wall and you like have a graph of your week, ⁓ and it's you maybe have a target and it's just like, By the end of the, you know, by next Sunday I want to get here. And that way an individual day s starts to lose some meaning. I think that would be kind of good too, because I think and even like sometimes I try to keep it like pretty balanced, but I think maybe like the marker being like hours played. That's always been good for me. One thing I noticed that was really kind of eye opening for me that we've talked about as like an overall group was like, you know, plate management and like with the gym and like, well, what do you want to be good enough? And for me, I was like, I wanted to be just good enough with the gym. And part of the reason I'd always failed with the gym before, like the last five, six years is well, in college I always went like four to five times a week. Yeah. And ⁓ you know, it's college, you have a lot more time. And ⁓ I've only gone three times a week the last six months. But I've noticed such a big like ⁓ but but when I put four or five times, if I went like once and I couldn't hit that four, I noticed sometimes I wouldn't go the second time or even the third time. And I think sometimes that can carry over in a week, you know. ⁓ whereas like, you know, if I have like four to you know, I have I w I try to hit like twenty five hours, like great, good job. That's the goal. But if I'm like it's Saturday and I've played fourteen hours And I played, you know, four hours. I'm like, ⁓ I'm not gonna my goal. ⁓ there's you know, which again it's completely right. Not very logical, but maybe it's it's it's you could say it's like a coping mechanism or a pro It's human nature. Yeah. But that is why we have like that's why we have minimum target outrageous goals because maybe then you could with a couple more hours hit the minimum or you could with five more hours hit the target. Yeah. I I like the the weekly thing in general. ⁓ I think that would definitely help because I especially especially like a few hours and I I always do this at the beginning of the year. I'm like 'cause I always try to put and I put twenty five. Obviously if I played twenty five hours a week, even over like forty forty four weeks, that would have actually like I think smashed my yeah. ⁓ but I was like, ⁓ well what if and and I've thought about this. Maybe I was like, maybe I should do twenty three hours. Because it will still be a new record and maybe that will help me more attainable. But I also feel like I should really be able to play twenty five hours a week if I'm managing my time right. Yeah. But I I Yeah. But what I've noticed is like because I'm not great at like playing long sessions, you know, so it's like, you know, once I miss like say I miss a session, I'm like, I know I can't play five hours. No, nor do I think it's good for For me as a player, I d I definitely notice that that downturn. But I I think that's the issue is like skipping too many sessions, maybe. And that would be be the number one reason why I would say when I do skip. Not that I skip all the time, but when I do skip, that is probably right up there as well, I'm comfortable. I had dinner, ⁓ you know, I haven't seen my wife all day. You have that little voice or little devil on your on your shoulder saying, like, ⁓ just take the day off and like You know, especially if we're playing high stakes, you're just like, ⁓ I won you know, I won twelve thousand or I won fifteen thousand. Like in your your your mind, you're like, ⁓ that's a monthly expense. You can you can take this off. But you're right, it's just like one big session. And then when you're, you know, down 60k, you're like, wow, I wish I played that session on like Friday night when the games were good. Yeah. I yeah. Well, I I hesitate because also if when the voice is, you know, I could use a night off or I want to spend some time with my wife, I don't want to always discourage that. Thought in general. ⁓ but yeah, I think you logically know it's all one long session, but it's how do we trick you to emotionally feel that way. Yeah, and regulate it. Yeah. ⁓ so it could be the idea that came to mind for me was that like, you know, you have the your graph of the week or or it's I mean you've already been trying to hit hours, but hours you could have like a twenty, twenty-five, thirty as as your targets. ⁓ or maybe Seventeen twenty five thirty. ⁓ yeah. Like a minimum. Yeah, like that's well, ⁓ you know, for one of the goals, and maybe I could have worded better, I I put no blow up weeks. And for me that was like I I or I said I think only have like I think I put ⁓ you can only have one blow up week a year. And for me that was like on a work week, I can't have a session like a week lower than twelve hours. Okay. So like that threshold like you know, but maybe I could word it a little bit more. I kind of like what you did. Maybe just make it ⁓ you know, ⁓ MCO like you did. Maybe

that's just easier. Yeah. And then there's the whether it's whether it's the graph or some other way to see like you can look at your financial results. I mean some a lot of people don't and they like not looking at the results. Also I haven't had much success doing that. I kind of like have some idea already and then I get curious. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ for some people that works well. But something for you just kind of say to yourself, Okay, we're gonna look back at the end of the week and see how I did. Like it doesn't mean you can't look along the way, but it's just like that's what I'm gonna judge myself on, is is what it looks like at the end of my week. Okay. And I I say week because you could do it month, but I I think week I think month it gets easy to it's hard it's too far away. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I agree with that. Yeah, I mean I think that'd be interesting because I do think with that kind of topic I can be my worst own enemy like my own worst enemy, you know? And I try not to beat my beat myself up, but it is something that I think is like for sure a leak. You know? And I've seen that too. I've seen a lot of great poker players who are like I've seen some who I'm sure you've seen a lot who like study a lot and then they have the hard time playing. And I'm, you know, I'm not as regimented studying, but I think that's, you know, obviously when I'm losing I study a little bit more, but I'm pretty consistent and the gr I have my study group as well, which has been which has been good for me. ⁓ but yeah, the the volume thing, ⁓ and like I don't know if this is like a trend, but if you look at my like if I showed you my best months, a lot of them are like shorter shorter months, believe it or not. And I don't know if maybe is that more of a sign of ⁓ I'm grinding more when I'm losing, or is it a sign of, you know when you say shorter months, do you mean like you took a week off or do you mean just hours played in general? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean could mean it is ch it is tough because there's yeah, is it cause or is it effect? ⁓ or is it neither? And I mean, from what you're describing, it sounds like you're having the thoughts of, okay, I won, I don't want to play. Like that that is the winds are causing it, at least some element. But the question then is, does that lower volume also cause more future winds? Right. Do you think maybe reframing like because I don't think it's like it's not like, ⁓ I don't want to go to work because I do enjoy playing. But may it's almost like a resistance, like and and part of the resistance is like, ⁓ what if you know, I'm gonna be in annoyed or like we said, be annoyed or like, ⁓ you know, because I won this, I get to hang out with my wife. And maybe I can reframe that to be like, well, because I played my hours, now I can play with my wife or or play, hang out with my wife. Yeah. I think yeah, it's very easy to fall into like, you know, I had a bad session, so I'm gonna have some ice cream. I had a good session,

so I'm gonna have some ice cream. Right. It's very easy to to to make excuses for something that you just want to do. or yeah, taking it easy. It sounds I mean, it sounds like volume has been a consistent issue for you. And Well, I mean, the types of things I'm talking about are just I strongly believe in experimentation because I I do think everybody's different and what is gonna work for you is is different than what's gonna work for me or what's gonna work ⁓ for the next guy. But just I'm I'm like the problem seems to be. that you don't want to mess up a winning day. Yeah. Which is and but then yeah, like that's why I felt like when you asked me, like, ⁓ why don't you play and then play lower stakes so you do it and then I was like, no, I could like that was like heresy. Like, no, absolutely not. but yeah, like I I definitely and that's something where I'm ⁓ I th I would say I'm l different than you and and I don't know if it's a flaw but just how I am is I'm very like I'm not a great initiator or experimenter. Sometimes and like ⁓ not that like hate I hate change, but I just don't have like a great initiative, and that's like I always say like this era of poker is actually like I think really suits my skill because like ⁓ I have all these tools that help me learn. Whereas I always say, like, you know, if it was ninety nine and there was no solvers, would I have the initiative to write down the combos or think outside the box like I probably not. ⁓ so I think that's a good idea and maybe that's something I should because I do think that's like an immediate fix that could really help more so than you know, especially 'cause hourlies get pretty high when you're playing h higher stakes and even adding like an hour, two hours on average. You know. Yeah. Yeah. You could set a goal like ⁓ a You could have some kind of weekly goal that is basically like I I tried a new experiment to get my volume up, or I did the one from last week because it worked. I I think I need to try that because the habit tracking, like I've done really good with I've made a lot of strides in like sleeping. And the one habit that I've had the whole time, but is by far my lowest habit, is that five hour day playslash 25 hour a week. So I was like hoping that helps, but maybe I need to like reframe that to better suit my brain, I guess, to break through, I guess. Yeah. One thing, ⁓ and this is a conversation with your wife, but one one thing that I do is instead of a five day work week, I do four days and two half days. And the reason I did that is because we don't have a lot of one on one time. And so when my son's at school, then we have a half day together. just us. I wonder if doing something like that where I don't know what your playing day schedule is, but having more but shorter, then you don't have to have this second session challenge on some days. ⁓ that is something I could definitely experiment with for sure. Because like Yeah, I mean the kids are five days a week and the boys' school is is quite long with their thing. So the days are actually like the time I do see her the most. So I think that that could absolutely I've never really thought about that. Maybe 'cause, you know, the f nine like five days a week is so ingrained in like the culture. But yeah, I could I could certainly do that. And I think that might work better for me since long days are probably just not my strength. So I think I'll try that actually. Cool. Yeah, it does sound like that. Yeah, it does sound like you're built well for that. Yeah. You've got a few to do's. I got some homework. I I appreciate it. Yeah. That one feels like such a simple thing, but I really didn't think about that at all. Thank you. Yeah. And yeah, you're welcome. And hopefully, maybe in the in the you know, the budgeting homework, the boring stuff, ⁓ you might find you might come across something you didn't think of as well. Cool. Well, thanks for doing this. ⁓ thank you so much. I I appreciate you taking the time to do this and ⁓ it was great. I I really appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure. All right. I hope you enjoyed that. Here's the update I promised at the top of the episode. ⁓ so for poker, the big change Jared wrote me was changing his schedule. He took my advice, he switched to six days a week, and he had really incredible results. We'll we'll show them on the screen. He said he was playing Better and fresher on average. These are seven weeks of results, by the way. But he was most happy about his hours per week. He was struggling before to reach his goal of twenty-five hours a week for the past few months. And since the seven weeks of our call that you just watched, ⁓ he's averaged 30 hours a week. Financially, he also shaved off about eighteen hundred dollars a month in expenses after our conversation. So, you know, he's still living in his house. He's not planning to to move out, but he managed to without a big lifestyle change, save about $21,000 a year, which is gonna make a big impact over the coming years. ⁓ so I'm hopeful that he continues on his trajectory. ⁓ you know, winning what would that be, 70,000 a month ⁓ indefinitely might be kind of hard, but but I hope he does it. And I ⁓ I hope he keeps ⁓ keeping his budget intact and intact and as his as his EV, as his earnings grow, not letting his his budget grow too much with it so that he can get ahead instead of playing catch up. And you know, it's a lesson that I have learned and a lot of other poker players that I know have as well. Hope you enjoyed it. I will see you next time. Until then, take care and good luck.