Trascrizione completa di Grant Blaisdell — Turning Space into an Investable Asset Class | Future Ventures Podcast Ep. 022

et cetera, whereas space doesn't really have that yet. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:49.520 And uh I think it's actually one of the biggest opportunities of this century overall, uh, but especially for blockchain technology to have what's going to be, in my opinion, the largest asset class of the future be inherently uh on-chain and take advantage of all of the benefits and kind of solution offer that this technology provides. 00:03:49.680 --> 00:04:04.479 So it's not something where I'm kind of abstractly trying to shove crypto up into space because they're both kind of these, you know, frontier hyped sort of markets, but it's a very pragmatic uh approach towards it, actually. 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:06.719 Who owns space? 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:08.879 Uh it's a good question. 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:22.399 I think actually one of the standards that's pretty revolutionary that we're bringing to the table is just the standard of what represents like verified ownership of space assets, assets in space. 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:27.439 You know, the biggest question I get around that is the moon, which is a little bit more complex. 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:33.519 So, for example, you can own private infrastructure assets on the moon. 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:37.920 You can't own the moon itself yet. 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:43.920 Whereas we have partners that are working, for example, on like mining rights for the moon. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:05:23.199 So this is something that's very exciting, and again, it's something that doesn't even come once in a lifetime, it comes once every few centuries, just like I compare what we're doing at Copernic space to kind of the first era of exploration, um, which you know, new ship technology, the physical infrastructure, of course, made going to the Americas and Asia much you know faster, safer, more possible, but really it was financial innovation and creating standards in the marketplace for the assets out of those voyages, which is like the Dutch East India Company, which became the most valuable company ever, that more of what we represent on this end of things. 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:24.720 Understood. 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:36.879 And so are we bound to see like a bit of a rash in terms of people venturing to space, people or or companies and people venturing uh to the moon claiming assets? 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:45.680 Is it is it a matter of like putting a claim uh or staking a claim on the moon and saying, well, this is my plot of land? 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:48.720 Uh I we're we're quickly heading to that. 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:54.079 And and remember, like the US is obviously the biggest player when it comes to it, especially from the private market. 00:05:54.160 --> 00:06:09.360 But then on the flip side, you have China, who you know, the state is able to make very aggressive centralized decisions a lot easier, you know, kind of behave a little bit more like we did in the 60s, which is like, screw it, we're gonna put

3% of our GDP into doing this, right? 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:11.120 Uh, and that's what goes. 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:20.480 And as you know, they don't have much thought consideration for like some sort of international law standard or something for that. 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:30.879 Uh, and a lot of people are missing that they're already, in some ways, even more advanced than the US is in what they're trying to do in orbit or on the moon itself. 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:39.680 Uh like in the beginning of the conversation, you mentioned that uh this could become the largest asset class. 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.959 Yeah, what would have to be true? 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.839 What would have to happen for this to actually become the reality? 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:50.959 Uh, I to be honest, I think it's a matter of time. 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.399 You can even look at it in comparison to terrestrial assets. 00:06:54.560 --> 00:07:03.600 It's like, okay, well, you know, there's already companies that are focused on, you know, landing on asteroids, mining, etc. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:08.480 You know, what the timeline is is we is arguable, right? 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:22.000 Um, but you know, just imagine, and I'm sure you've seen the things where it's like there's enough gold or platinum or diamonds on this singular body to, you know, then there's more than we know of on Earth, right? 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:32.160 Uh so um really it's it's a matter of time, and again, what kind of economic model and system we we put around it. 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:45.199 So, how fast we get there is partially reliant on companies like us uh to turn it into a more accessible, scalable, and liquid market and asset class. 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:56.319 So you talked about payload, and and and I'm actually originally from Bulgaria, didn't realize that Poland was the fourth nation in space in terms of their capabilities. 00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:03.199 Um, at the moment, we're at the precipice of the largest IPO in history. 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:12.000 Like SpaceX is wildly speculated to uh be listed or go public this year at a 1.5 trillion valuation. 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:18.000 I believe 90% of all payload capacity is via SpaceX. 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:27.040 Kind of like how do you how do you see like I'd love to get your perspective on SpaceX, and then I would love to get your perspective on payload capacity. 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:42.720 Well, remember, SpaceX is you know, now they're re I would have told you that I would have told you this years ago if you asked me that the focus of SpaceX is gonna change from Mars to the Moon. 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:48.000 Moon is the launch pad, like we prove everything on the moon and and the rest comes after it. 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.159 But remember, they're mainly focused on actually just putting things into orbit. 00:08:52.320 --> 00:09:00.879 So, for example, when the moon missions land, the private moon missions landed last year, which which we had a payload on one of them. 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:12.480 Um, you know, they're just taking these other private companies, whether it's Firefly, Astrobotic, you know, into orbit, and these countries have these companies have to figure out how to actually get to the moon. 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:22.320 So, um, but as you know, any market, you probably don't want 90% of capacity sitting within one company, right? 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:42.799 So I think again, kind of we don't, you know, a core part of what we're doing, and it's goes all the way back to my grandfather's early works around this concept is kind of like, okay, how do we democratize as much the access, the liquidity, the movement of capital in this market? 00:09:42.960 --> 00:10:04.879 And it's it's not to, you know, uh to go against SpaceX or anything like that, it's just to empower other companies, entrepreneurs to have uh better access to the commercial market, more scalable access, uh, better access to liquidity, and create also secondary markets for the liquidity providers because that's a big bottleneck in space. 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:14.320 It's like, okay, if I even have the privilege of investing into space, which is still very privilege-focused, you know, usually they're not tiny tickets either. 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:18.240 Um, like what's my liquidity event timeline? 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:18.639 Right. 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:27.360 So you can focus on investing in equity in the companies, or which of course we're gonna be doing as well is through the tokenization end. 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:48.320 But I think what's the most fascinating thing is investing on the asset infrastructure level, which we tested out with our moon mission one, which is like, okay, how do I invest into an asset, you know, this pay group of payloads versus into a company itself, and that way you can create much more kind of result-based, dynamic secondary markets for investments. 00:10:48.399 --> 00:11:00.320 But back to your your thing around SpaceX, listen, you know, Bezos getting involved is good, you know, Rocket Lab, all these companies um need to, you know, really compete in the market. 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:16.799 I think the big thing people miss around uh Musk in general is that if you take the collection of all his companies together, uh the end goal is a combination of them together that is a full space stack, right? 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.320 So, you know, you saw SpaceX acquired XAI, right? 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:22.960 Okay, so you have intelligence there, right? 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:33.600 You have you have the AI element, then you have um Tesla, which is um you know the robotic and the automated transportation, etc. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:41.120 Then you have boring company human settlements on other bodies are not all of them are gonna be above the ground. 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:44.320 It's actually protection against radiation, it's

a lot better underground. 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:48.639 So when you combine all of this, it actually creates a full uh space stack. 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:51.519 I think that's kind of the hidden big picture that's behind all this. 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:52.480 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:52.639 --> 00:12:06.960 I I think I I think a lot of people have covered that ground, but to your point, I don't I don't know how well understood is that what he's trying to create, it's it's intentional and in and is this virtual integration stack of technology. 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:07.840 Correct. 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:12.080 Um, who it from your perspective, who who's gonna make the money? 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:18.240 Is it is if if I if you was to compare this to the California gold rush, is it the people that are prospecting? 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:20.559 Is it the people that are selling the picks and shovels? 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:27.440 Uh kind of like yeah, I you know, I compare it less to like the gold rush. 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:35.919 Uh I when when we were creating coin from that gold rush thing came in, and we were the picks and shovels because we were like that, you know, the AML layer, you know, etc. 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:44.080 Again, I compare this more to like completely transformative things, first era of exploration, railroads, etc. 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:50.480 Um, hard for me to answer that, uh to be honest. 00:12:50.720 --> 00:13:09.120 Um, all I know is that there's a massive, there's also cultural change that's happening in space where it's moving from you know government reliance, strictly engineer reliance, and it's becoming much more of a dynamic entrepreneurial um sort of uh sort of market. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:19.120 Then you have you know new players coming in that are focused on things that aren't even happening yet, like you know, the data centers and and space sort of aspect. 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:36.639 The the big failure, I think, of of space communication-wise over the decades has been is that it has been responsible for a lot of the most important scientific and technological advancements that affect life on Earth, and now that market's scaling. 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:46.080 So it's even more so it's gonna be like, okay, the problems we have on Earth are gonna be made by pushing the space economy forward. 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:55.200 If is it's is it gonna be the mining company, or is it gonna be the company who's you know selling the parts for the mining thing? 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:58.399 Like that's that's to be seen, I think. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:00.720 Interesting, interesting. 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:12.960 Um so when at least from my perspective, when most foreigners think space, they think hardware, at least kind of like to your point, like we have to build out the infrastructure. 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:15.360 Um, but you're building markets. 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:30.080 Um like am I understanding correctly that infrastructure is the real bottleneck, and then we need to build out the infrastructure before we can uh uh advance everything else, like you were talking about kind of like to your example, like we gotta lay down the rail tracks before we can do anything else. 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:40.080 Yeah, and it's also the speed of things and who who at the end has uh access and becomes a stakeholder in benefits, right? 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:46.799 Like, do we want this to be extremely centralized, high barriers to entry? 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:54.080 You know, it's it's almost like look what fintech has done to finance, it's completely changed how how that looks. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:15:09.679 And we we saw that like with the GameStop, I think it was GameStop, where it's like, oh well, the collective, the collective hive mind of people were just like, hey, we're gonna do this and we'll eat the biggest hedge fund in the day, right? 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:27.120 So um, and with space again, we have a unique opportunity in a moment in time to build that infrastructure, the models, the standards completely from zero, pretty much, which changes how it, you know, how the future uh really looks. 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:50.159 So I think it's vitally important that people um space communicates better because a lot of people think that space is just like it's Musk, it's Bezos, it's a couple billionaires, and it's governments, whereas there's over 10,000 companies in the space market, but that you, even someone who's watching right now, it's like you can become a stakeholder, a player in space pretty much today. 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:55.519 So, like when the space X IPO happens, like there's gonna be loads of capital that wants to get into space. 00:15:55.679 --> 00:16:03.360 Again, as of right now, it's pretty much I go through selective VCs, which is an extremely privileged thing to become an LP or something like that. 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:12.240 Although, you know, through Angel List, there's some things happening around that, or it's uh publicly traded equity, which is what a 10-year event timeline for space companies. 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.240 What's what's that timeline? 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:18.480 Um, so I think it definitely takes uh patient capital to build this out. 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:24.240 It's not like yeah, yeah, and it's it's like um, you know, it's like with quantum. 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:38.159 Like I know guys that have been, you know, talking about investing in quantum for you know five, ten years, and just now is like quantum kind of picking up steam to where like is this even a viable uh sort of market around around things. 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:54.159 So I think I think it's important to get as many people involved in this as possible because that equals more capital, but it also I don't like the whole, you know, it makes it a more equitable environment in the sense of it's healthier for the market that way as well.

00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:56.799 So let me put this into context. 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:04.880 Um, in in the context of Copernic space, is Copernic more like NASDAQ for space, or is it something completely new? 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:10.000 Kind of like how would you best describe it in real simple terms? 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.079 Yeah, that's that's a big challenge. 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:23.920 You know, I don't the Nasdaq thing as far as like standard setting infrastructure, but we're not playing on just like public, it's not just like public traded equity, etc. 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:30.960 It's an inter entire economic stack from the financing end to the commercialization end. 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:36.960 Like, for example, right now we're uh this is our second sale with this rocket company. 00:17:37.039 --> 00:18:06.640 They're um one of the top 10 European rocket companies called Space Forest, where we're tokenizing uh payload space inside as well as certain parts of the outside of the rocket and enabling people to acquire rights to whether it's put their sticker on it, put something inside, and then we authenticate and tokenize the payload assets themselves, and then open up a secondary market for them to trade rights and ownership of those payloads themselves. 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:13.759 So we're like full stack circular economy sort of model, uh, versus uh a Nasdaq. 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:19.119 So, you know, it's more like you know, Amazon meets Coinbase. 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:19.759 I don't know. 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:20.559 Yeah. 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:46.799 So if you're if you're tokenizing the payload or I guess the the billboard of uh of the external surfers, um the external, uh I think it's easier for people to understand it's like well I'm I'm buying kind of like ad spaces if it's a F1 uh car, like I'm buying a space on on the external side, on the internal side, on the payload capacity, like so you you buying, I don't know, as like I don't know, let's say it's a hundred kilos of payload. 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:51.039 Um who then buys from you? 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:54.960 Well, that's where the fractionalization comes in, right? 00:18:55.039 --> 00:19:03.200 Which is I think a big thing with space is taking big assets, fractionalizing them down into more accessible ones. 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:18.880 Um, so we've had the full range from other space companies to startups to brands, all the way down to you know, individuals sitting in their living room that just always dreamed of putting something in space. 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:26.559 And then on top of it, we have the standard of oh, this is your verified ownership of that you did this, right? 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:28.480 And is there a secondary market for it? 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:30.079 A lot of assets, probably not. 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:37.440 Some assets, yes, and that whole sort of standard and and market dynamics need to need to be built. 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:49.440 Why the need to tokenize, like for example, the the um the the payload? 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:57.119 Why couldn't a company or let's say it's a startup go directly to uh space forest and say, hey, I'm looking for this much capacity? 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.960 Yeah, uh business and there's two ends to that. 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:06.079 Business in space is extremely archaic, like you wouldn't believe how archaic it is. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.920 It's still spreadsheets, emails, it's very hard to do. 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.519 Uh, and you're also still dealing with engineers a lot of the time. 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:24.960 Um, so I think there's just the pure multi-multi-billion dollar need and opportunity into like digitizing and streamlining the business and finance processes uh of space. 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:31.279 When it comes to the tokenization end, is like you know, NFTs get a really bad rap, unfairly. 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:49.680 I understand why they do, but it's actually the most amazing technology, in my opinion, that that blockchains come out with because I can take assets, make them programmable, I can make them fractionalizable, and I can create secondary markets for it that are work 24-7 and are dynamics. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:59.359 The same reason that whether it's BlackRock or whoever it is are wanting to get into this game is because you can create a completely different sort of market reality around it. 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:06.319 Does everything technically would it need to be technology uh tokenizable for them to be able to sell their payload? 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:20.720 No, but you're also creating a singular system of trust, asset management, programmability, secondary markets all with within one stack, versus you know, just like what's the big issue in banking? 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:30.720 These are all you know, these are all data silos and segmented, fragmented sort of platforms and standards, and yeah it just it doesn't move the way that it should move. 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:32.480 Got it, got it. 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:40.559 Um, what um uh kind of like a two-folded question, what prompted you to move into space? 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:45.440 I know you're a third generation um um uh I I guess space. 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.160 Um and and what did you learn from crypto? 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:54.799 Um, like I mean, you were one of the founders of Corn Farm, and and how did that shape Copernic? 00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:06.480 Uh well Copernic as an idea is uh pretty much as Old as CoinFrom was so it's from like you know early 2010s, uh if not older. 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.440 Because my mother and I, my mother's my co-founder as well. 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.559 She's known as Lady Rocket, she like has her own brand and stuff. 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:14.079 She's known as Lady What? 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:15.200 Lady Rocket. 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:16.079 Okay. 00:22:16.480 -->

00:22:19.279 So a lot of people more people know her than they know me. 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.920 She's a very bombastic visionary type person. 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:22.480 Okay. 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:31.920 Um, you know, we were kind of early participants, like on the ground in you know, this new space economy that was privatizing in California. 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:36.880 We were going to rocket launches at what was then Vanderburgh Air Force Base, now Space Force Base. 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:42.160 Um, so that's you know, this is something that's been accumulating. 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.160 Really, it was a matter of timing, right? 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.920 It's like, okay, is blockchain tech mature enough to do something like this? 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:57.680 You know, is the space market, you know, mature enough privately to where we can, you know, create actual demand or or or purpose around it. 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.720 Um, and I would say we were still very early, right? 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:05.839 And just now it's you know really starting to you know to snowball. 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:23.839 Um, and and to be honest, it's like I'm I'm a partner shareholder um of a sizable music company here in Europe, and I'm co-founder of Tipsy, which is a uh ticketing payments data platform for live events and concerts. 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:29.440 And I kind of had this fork in the road where I was like, all right, do I go do this thing that is really fun? 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:31.359 You know, I'm very passionate about music. 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.759 It's what I've done since I was a child. 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:56.240 It's a market that's well understood, you know, it's not like I have to convince somebody of ticketing or or anything like that, or do I take on the bigger challenge that is the bigger opportunity and is, I think, quite obviously more important for humanity earth and the future overall. 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.000 Um so it's you know, it's kind of my personality. 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:04.480 My dad told me when I was young, he's like, son, you don't seem to take the easiest routes. 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:11.359 So, and and that's the big difference, I think, between like, you know, like the whole startup thing is kind of like convince most people. 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.519 It's like, yeah, you can be, you know, startup founder, big entrepreneur, and stuff like that. 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:28.640 And it's like, I think there's certain just character sets and personalities and types that just have the perseverance and the tolerance to just be abused for years at a time, you know, to get to your get to your end goal, you know. 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.599 So take you know, take big risks, take big swings. 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:45.440 Um, and and again, I just think it's it's like it's not even once in a lifetime this moment that we have a resource basis once every couple centuries to do something

like this, and I'm not gonna be alive again to take on something like that, I don't think. 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:47.920 Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:56.960 Um, I mean, you it you talked about uh um the speed um and that uh space assets are inherently illiquid. 00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:58.880 How do you create trust? 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:09.200 How do you drive pricing, liquidity where um it where non-existor, I mean, we mean not exist is maybe unfair, but it's it's still very much in its nascency. 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:11.119 Uh yeah, for sure. 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:26.640 I mean you brought up pricing, like uh a lot of space, a lot of space companies even struggle with like pricing, you know, it's still like a very much government cost plus sort of attitude towards pricing. 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:34.160 Yeah, so you know, for us, it's like you need to create a market in the first place to even determine what actual pricing is. 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:34.960 Yeah. 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:42.960 Uh so we're sometimes, you know, most of the time we're a little less focused, worried on creating the supply end. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.680 The supply is there, it's building, right? 00:25:46.079 --> 00:26:03.039 It's more about start and approved demand end outside of the very traditional, you know, select few prime corporations, space or space, but even space companies sometime reach out to me and they're like, Hey, can you help me find this sort of allocation? 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:22.559 Um, so uh, you know, again, it's not it's not the smallest challenge in the world, but any industrialist, so to say, right, over time had had this moment, you know, the car, the train, you know, the biggest, the biggest industry. 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:30.240 Uh you know what the biggest industry was uh in like 19 in like 1900? 00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:32.799 Uh I don't know. 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.799 I'm guessing looms, uh textile, no idea, uh print. 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:38.000 Whaling. 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:39.839 Whaling, okay. 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:45.759 For the oil oil was used for kerosene lamps and and all these other other sort of things. 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:56.240 Overnight, boom, that disappeared because somebody spent 10 years building up to that sort of moment, right? 00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:07.759 So I I you know I think that any opportunity of this size takes uh proving over a certain time span. 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.640 So yeah, I think again back to community. 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.079 I'm a former CMO, right? 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:21.680 So like uh and one of the first jobs I ever had was doing pre-development for NBC Universal and Fox for a project that eventually became Hulu. 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:22.960 It wasn't even called Hulu. 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:24.000 Okay, cool. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:28.400 Uh kind of the mentor for me during that was a guy called Frank Lunz. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:33.519 He

was working um for for both the the studios then. 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:38.319 And Frank was known, is known for working with in politics. 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.720 And I remember always what he says, like it's it's not what you say, it's how you say it. 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:53.359 So I think a lot of the work we have is communicating to the market like the value of space, the accessibility of space and what they can do. 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.759 Sometimes people are like, I'd really like to do something, but I'm not exactly sure what to do. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:13.359 And sometimes it becomes art, sometimes it becomes a brand, sometimes it becomes uh, you know, a company that will start doing research in space because research in space provides results that nothing else on earth can can provide. 00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:18.880 So it's it's what I call an umbrella market, it's gonna touch everything, and it's already touching everything. 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:23.119 I mean, we're using tech that's most of it comes out of space applications originally. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:24.480 That's awesome. 00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:29.039 Um on on the pricing, I'm I'm curiosity here. 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:31.839 Um, you talked about it that we have to be over the market. 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:32.880 I I completely agree. 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:39.279 I mean, it's like price is really a byproduct or the the in-between supply and demand. 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:43.039 Um, what's the equivalent of price discovery for what are we talking about? 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:49.279 Loader payloads or satellite compute time, or we're talking about uh manufacturing drugs in space. 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:58.319 Like what uh like g give me a sense as to how you're thinking about you know getting to price discovery or figuring out what the pricing is. 00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:00.319 All right. 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:10.799 Uh so I I think right now, since it's so early in the market, uh for those entities that can, you charge them a premium. 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:11.440 Okay. 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:15.839 I think space companies undervalue what they're doing most of the time. 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:16.480 Okay. 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:16.960 Okay. 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:24.000 Uh but when it comes to smaller players, you try to adjust it for smaller players, right? 00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.680 I think that's what's happening right now or should be happening. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:34.319 And as our platform grows, because, like, for example, we have on our platform, we have two processes. 00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.599 It's like the buy now or what we call the deal process. 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:47.279 The space company can choose to make uh to tokenize it, put them in minimum units, and then set a price per unit and have that public. 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:59.519 That's encoded in a smart contract, or they can do what we call a deal process, or it's like, hey, here's this opportunity, here's the smallest divisible, you know, sort of unit. 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:02.160 Okay, uh, put your request in. 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:12.319 We can share agreements between, come to some sort of pricing, and then that gets embedded in the smart contract and and means the asset uh accordingly. 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:18.640 So, but price discovery is obviously important for any market to be scalable, I think, right? 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:31.200 Um, but even if you go on eBay, we're looking at my my kids found uh we rented a book from the library, we found found a Pokemon card for some reason within one of these books. 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:32.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.839 And uh we're just curious, we're like, what's this Pokemon card worth? 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:40.559 Yeah, yeah, and we we went into you know, the we started looking it up. 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:46.480 One person posted it for like$300, the other person posted it for five dollars. 00:30:46.640 --> 00:31:21.039 So it's like, you know, I think you know, value is also always in the eye of the beholder, like is absolutely and that's why it's like you know, for like what we're doing around like authenticating and tokenizing the payloads themselves, is like, okay, well, if it's Coca-Cola that's putting or Gucci is putting an exclusive brand product into it that they're then they're gonna resell for a hundred thousand dollars versus a guy who's just putting a family photo up in there, like, should I charge the fam the the family guy the same thing as I charge Coca-Cola for Gucci? 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.400 No, right? 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:24.319 That wouldn't be realistic. 00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:31.759 So um, you know, I'm kind of throwing out right now very transparently and organically how I see it. 00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:55.839 But eventually, you know, it's it's gonna be like, for example, with us, why you asked the tokenization thing around like payload spaces, because for example, I could be a company that's a little bit, you know, I'm thinking financially, and I could buy a hundred kilos just because I think the value of that as demand increases is gonna grow over time, and I'll be able to fractionalize and then sell it for way more. 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:08.240 And we prove that, like in Moon Mission One, where we had a liquidity provider put capital in for a percentage of the revenue that the commercial payload generates, basically X in five months, right? 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:20.960 So those sort of dynamics again, take it out of the equity, put it into the asset sort of level, and and and that way you can again build more dynamic secondary markets and and more uh liquidity and more velocity. 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:24.559 Couple of questions that come come out based on what you just said. 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:31.039 I mean, typically what we see uh in terms of terrestrial models, you will see demand-based pricing, right?

00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:32.799 Like the more demand, the higher the price. 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:38.160 Like you see, it is like what it's with accommodations, what is with travel hotels, uh flights. 00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:40.160 But here you're trying to democratize it. 00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:42.960 It's kind of based on you the ability to pay. 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:44.559 The it's a sliding scale. 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:48.640 The the the higher the ability to pay, the higher the price, the lower the ability to pay, the lower price. 00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:50.480 It's it's kind of unusual. 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.400 Um, what's driving you to to move into that direction? 00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:59.359 That's just how the market's currently behaving, I would say. 00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:04.240 It's gonna get to what you're talking about uh uh eventually, right? 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:14.960 But again, you need to have a system where you can even determine what's the supply and demand in its totality, and then you know, those things have to communicate together as as well. 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:25.039 So, again, you're coming back to like what's the value of building like the infrastructure, yeah, horizontal layer versus just like I'm gonna focus on a singular vertical. 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:33.359 It's like, no, it has to be a horizontal thing to even uh get to that point, you know, to the Nasdaq thing or whatever it is, it's like that's a horizontal layer. 00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:45.519 That's that's not you know, so uh I'm I'm just telling you, kind of being very transparent about like what we're seeing happening in the market and how I think also space companies should kind of behave, you know. 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:55.279 It's like you know, if you have something that's really unique and rare, you don't you shouldn't undersell it unless you you have to, you know. 00:33:56.240 --> 00:34:09.920 Okay, now um uh on to the question to on the example that you just gave around like uh a company buying the the payload capacity and then reselling it uh uh at a period later. 00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:16.159 I mean, it in many ways this is like a forward contract, kind of like what are the regulations in space? 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:22.639 Uh is it because we're talking to terrestrial companies, terrestrial rules apply, uh like the iFress standards. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:33.199 Our biggest regulatory concern, you know, we're not launching things, okay, so we're not dealing with all that regulatory end, yeah. 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:39.440 Like us as a company, our our only you know, real worry, obviously you have the AML KYCN, right? 00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:41.440 Like that's standard, standard, yeah. 00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:56.079 Um, is it's just the securities aspect, which especially around tokenization, uh you know, the US hasn't been very clear about um right now that's improving. 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:12.000 We of course want to take advantage of

the Trump administration being in because they're setting some sort of clarity, but there's also so much going on that it's like kind of setting bars in a way that it's like, okay, as long as you're within this realm, like we're not gonna uh go after you. 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.039 But you know, like we're defining a whole new asset class, right? 00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.360 We actually separated into two categories what we call real world space assets. 00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:28.239 So those are that's the payload space, the payloads, the data, the IP, the computation capacity, the unique commercially viable things that have utility. 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:32.880 And then there's financial space assets, which majority of those are gonna be securities. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:39.360 You can get away with uh if we're gonna get on camera, go around, don't block it. 00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:41.119 Sorry, my son, my son's right here. 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:42.000 You can see his hair. 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:43.920 I see his hair, yeah, yeah. 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:50.639 Hey, um, so um, so most of those are gonna be securities. 00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:55.039 You can get away with certain utility models uh around it. 00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:58.639 Um, but you know, we're not here to run away from that. 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:04.320 Again, we want to set standards that sit here for decades and decades to come. 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:06.880 Hi, say what's up. 00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:08.559 Sorry, I'm I'm very close. 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:13.760 My kids are very close to my work, they're well known to be on conference calls and podcasts at this point. 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:15.280 But keep going. 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.320 I can I can do this in a hurricane, don't worry about it. 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:26.639 Um, well, my my question then becomes um, who wins in space? 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:30.159 Are we talking like is it going to be the retail customers? 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:45.440 Is it going to be uh government, is gonna be institution, it's gonna be like the ultra-rich, and and then um do we have the the the structured infrastructure at the moment to allow for retail customers to actually win? 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:51.519 Retail customers will usually be the last to win, right? 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:54.320 Yeah, you know, that's that's just kind of the way of the game. 00:36:54.559 --> 00:37:09.920 But what we want to do is set up a system that whether you're a fund with a billion dollars of assets under management, or you're a guy with a thousand dollars on your couch, yeah, you have the same access point and barrier, yeah. 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:17.119 So that's uh the you know, the the X amount of your return can be the same. 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:30.000 Obviously, if I put in a hundred million, my return this reminds me of that viral thing where the kid runs in during the interview, and I know, I know, and and mom is trying to crawl and get him out like this. 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:33.840 I think it was the first one when COVID started when he was working from home. 00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:34.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:42.159 Um, so you know, the the multipliers should be relatively the same, okay, right? 00:37:42.480 --> 00:38:01.920 And again, we get to build a whole new market and asset class on more of that sort of capability or standard versus what it was before, where it's really like who you know in backroom sort of relationships, which I would I would say that obviously the venture market, the VC market is very much like that in reality, yeah. 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:03.119 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:14.559 Um wanted to kind of better understand from you like what's the the quantum of the market in the moment, and how does Copernic actually make money? 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.679 Is it on the issue or is it on transaction? 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:20.880 I'm assuming it's some kind of like a percentage of. 00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:25.280 Um, but walk me through um how do you make money? 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:30.079 Yeah, so uh we have a few rev streams around it. 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:52.159 Obviously, we want everything to be tied to smart contracts, okay, so that there's an automated percentage of each transaction, and that percentage will vary across different sorts of yields, and then it'll probably standardize strongly as it just scales and everything can be kind of automated in that way. 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.039 Um, so that's like the main core baseline. 00:38:55.119 --> 00:39:03.440 It's the Amazon model marketplace, you know, model exchange model, whatever you wanna you want to look at. 00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:07.039 Then we have what we call strap strategic acquisition. 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:16.079 So that's where we see opportunities to just acquire assets, fractionalize and resell them ourselves. 00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:24.880 And that has a much uh sort of um higher margin um around it. 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:30.800 Uh then eventually we're gonna develop something we called SAI, which means space asset intelligence. 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:39.840 So even data insights into what's kind of financially happening in the space market, the asset value, et cetera, is also extremely archaic. 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:46.480 So this think of it as like a like proprietary AI-powered Bloomberg terminal for space. 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:50.480 And then the agentic economy is going to come into that as well. 00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:58.159 So it's gonna create portfolio construction, you know, uh itself, and you know, then they trade it on our secondary market. 00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:08.480 So that will be, you know, either like a per data set call, API call, or a subscription um sort of uh model around it. 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:17.280 So those are like the main the main ones, uh main ones that that we really look at uh when it comes to that aspect.

00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:20.079 And and what's the quantum of the market? 00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:27.599 I mean, I know that it's massive, and and you talked about like it holding uh holding the potential to be the largest asset class. 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:28.960 What is that now? 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:32.800 And where do you see it in maybe like three years to five years? 00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:51.360 Well, right now it's over 600 billion dollars, so that kind of goes back to what I was saying is like people think that the market is just like Musk and you know, a few uh entities that are you know actually sort of doing things, but it's it's much bigger than that. 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:59.039 So it's already, you know, like I I've been around all types of startups throughout my you know my life. 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:02.000 Oh, I forgot to the revenue thing also as well. 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:02.719 I forgot. 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:11.599 So the the emission sort of aspect, depending on you know what it is, we will probably take fees from that. 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:28.000 And also we're built to be dual use in the sense of right now, we're building a public slash you know, the private end of the marketplace, but we are gonna extend our infrastructure out so that governments and enterprises can build their own trusted environments, right? 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:30.639 So that bring on trusted players, etc. 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:32.719 So I I forgot to mention that. 00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:42.320 Uh, as far as the market, most you know, most TAMs you'll see, it'll be like, oh, well, it's a$30 billion market, it's a$50 billion market, right? 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:45.519 This is already over$600 billion. 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:50.800 Yeah, and the interesting thing is that around 78% of it is actually like private commercial activity. 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:57.599 Of course, the governments are pumping money in their clients, but it's actually private companies is 78% of the value. 00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:58.079 Okay. 00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:04.000 Where's the biggest opportunity from an economics perspective versus vis-a-vis terrestrial? 00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:15.679 Like, like you, I think I think you'd have mentioned a thousand or ten thousand companies already playing in space, kind of like ten thousand, and and so that six hundred billion dollars current markets. 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.400 Like, where what what are the the biggest opportunities at the moment? 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:31.679 Well, when we when we were starting, like the first real-world space assets we really wanted to do things around, uh, and we'll be doing this hopefully by the end of the year. 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:36.480 Is so we built like what we call the payload standard, right? 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:40.320 And we built one for both physical as what we call the digital payload standard. 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.000 So that's digital storage, right? 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.199 Versus physical space, digital storage, right? 00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:45.599 Yep. 00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:49.599 Um, and we've proved both of those on the market to you know some scale. 00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:56.480 Uh, then the one we really wanted to focus on initially, but is more challenging for right now, is what we call the data standard. 00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:04.000 So I think the most scalable things are gonna be around data, computation capacity, etc., right? 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:11.760 Because just you don't have the physical realities that create complications, you know, limitations as much as that. 00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:18.719 That's one reason why, you know, I think people are looking at you know the data centers in space and all that so strongly. 00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:26.639 It's like, yeah, it's a massive, expensive, complicated physical infrastructure, but what does that physical infrastructure enable and open up? 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:27.199 Right? 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:32.239 It enables a digital economy to be to be built around it. 00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:45.440 Uh, I obviously, you know, SpaceX isn't isn't disappearing, but even they're looking into uh you know the data center out element, being a little bit more digital driven around it. 00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:52.159 So I think it's gonna develop, you know, uh as a lot of markets have when it comes to that. 00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:55.920 So you you're talking about the data standard. 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:59.760 Um, I mean, for any standard to become a standard. 00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:06.400 Requires that there's a broad-based consensus and there's a number of the interested or different stakeholders that come together. 00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:19.840 And so if it was to draw upon the example you gave around data centers, the the the maybe the misunderstood fact is that we have uh quite a bit of capacity, at least from an energy perspective, to power up data centers. 00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:23.920 The problem is that we don't have the capacity at a peaking level. 00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:43.679 So um if we have a coordinated uh uh workforce or a coordinated state in terms of when can data status come on, when can data status come off, and kind of like to make sure that we we don't roll into blackouts and things like that, we have a lot more capacity than we have, but no, we have to build everything to that kind of like peaking. 00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:53.920 Who are what are the companies, the organizations, stakeholders that they're actually helping you to define what that data standard is? 00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:02.559 Uh so the way that we build standards is by working directly with a space, we don't create it in a vacuum, okay? 00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:09.760 Of course, so so we work with some sort of uh player uh that is in that field. 00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:22.000 So, like with the computation thing, and usually we don't go like super big right away

because if you prove something, you know, at this thing, like it applies again, it applies horizontally. 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:34.880 Yeah, like my lesson from CoinFirm was you know, one of them was like the private market's gonna lead, it's gonna push the boundaries and create the standards that then the regulators, the governments, etc. 00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:40.480 will have to verify and implement, adjust to. 00:45:41.039 --> 00:46:00.559 So even you know, even when I brought up the China thing, it's like, okay, well, if China pushes the ball, is the US just gonna you know block itself from you know matching that and lose in the long run because it's just not being as aggressive around it. 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:06.320 So, you know, the the you know, the the world is for the brave, the world is for the bold. 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.079 Uh and somebody has to do it. 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:20.639 Like, you know, what we're doing is whether you whether or not you think it's too early or not, uh is it doesn't it doesn't change the fact that it has to happen, right? 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:26.639 So um I think for each vertical or each standard, you know, it will it will depend. 00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:39.840 Right now we're working with uh, for example, a satellite company and a company that's focused on edge computing, and we want to set the standard on okay, how can people easily acquire taking an image from space? 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:52.880 How can someone easily acquire rights to utilize this much computation capacity or launch and test an application in space without having to launch their own infrastructure to do it? 00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:56.559 Makes sense now. 00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:02.079 Um, from a market map position perspective, who do you worry the most? 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:07.920 Um, and and what I mean, like and and how do you build a mode around comparing space? 00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:19.280 Is like, are you most worried about the SpaceX type space players, financial institution, web three native platforms, kind of like what like and and how do you build defensibility around the things that you're doing? 00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:22.960 Yeah, I think I think that's a really you know it's a strong question. 00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:30.960 Um I think one thing is that SAI thing is gonna be interesting, uh the social asset intelligence aspect. 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:33.199 So if tell me more, yeah. 00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:42.320 So if if you're just like with CoinFirm, like what we did is we built the largest database that existed. 00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:42.960 Okay. 00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:57.840 So to really compete with that, you're either gonna have to, you know, really invest a lot to go around that, which is possible, but there's also a speed to how you can do things, or do you just try to acquire the the data sets, right? 00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.440 So uh I think that's an interesting one. 00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.559 Uh obviously, you know, people are important. 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:10.159 There's a reason why the aqua hire uh model exists, right? 00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:32.400 Is how many people, and it's not to like toot my own horn as an individual, it's just like how many people have an actual experience set from a that they're really entrepreneurial characters, they're not some guy that hey, I'm an executive at a traditional space company uh or I'm uh Ernst and Young consultant, right? 00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:48.239 But I entrepreneurial background understands the kind of crypto, digital asset, new models of financing, commercialization, digital economy play, and then have enough legitimacy or capability to know how to move throughout the space economy. 00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:49.360 How many people is that? 00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:53.119 Like five, ten in the world, potentially. 00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:56.960 Um so you know it's it's the same thing. 00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:02.400 It's like, okay, why is this is an interesting thing about marketplaces in history. 00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:19.519 It's like a lot of the original guys, whether it's eBay, whether it's Amazon, these are some of the first players that kind of set standards in how e-commerce is gonna work, are still here and and are the dominant players, right? 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:26.880 And obviously that's proliferated into all these little different types of verticals that exist, yeah, but still it's it's no comparison. 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:27.280 Why? 00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:32.159 Because they built a standard, there's the logistics arm around all of it. 00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:48.400 Um, so it's you know, we're focused on proving the market right now, and the good news is that there's a few competitors that have come out within the past year, month, year or so. 00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:53.840 That of course I know pretty much personally, they've been observing us for you know X amount of time. 00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:56.559 Uh, but but that's good news, you know. 00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:03.119 If you don't have like someone trying to do what you're doing, then you're probably not doing something right, you know. 00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:08.480 So uh or too early, or like you're not focusing a problem worth solving. 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:09.519 Got it, yeah. 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:10.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:13.440 So I I can't fully answer that, you know. 00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:23.679 Uh and and one thing that like entrepreneurs or startup guys that have big success don't like to admit is that there's a certain element of luck in things. 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.039 Yeah, for sure. 00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:44.880 Um I mean I I can't help think about like you know, the the the saying that the early bird catch the the the worm, and uh in many ways this is a category creation play because it's like you you're building a market where you you're building uh things that didn't exist before.

00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:50.079 So from that perspective, what were the hardest moments for you to this point? 00:50:50.159 --> 00:51:00.559 And where did um where this almost didn't work, or is it still like you are still very much in the process of proving things working? 00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:06.800 Yeah, you know, when you're doing something that's truly transformative, there's no precedent, yeah, right? 00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:17.840 And most people, you know, no matter how smart they are, most people don't kind of have, let's say, the creative vision to kind of connect the dots a lot of times, right? 00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:28.559 And it's you know, it's the same reason, like you know, if I said I'm building an AI company, you know, eight years ago, they'd be like, We're not interested or whatever, we don't, you know, get it. 00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:34.719 Whereas if I said two years ago, three years ago, I'm building an AI company that just would have thrown money at me, right? 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:36.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:40.960 So I, you know, a lot of our work is quasi-education. 00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:46.400 It's like, you know, just talking to people, educating the market, and some people get it, some people don't. 00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:57.840 The those that don't are gonna be late to the game, which um, you know, even that has its benefits sometimes because at least you're not investing into discovery, right? 00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.920 Um, but I mean famously Apple is a fast follower, right? 00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:08.000 And they're one of the, if not the most valuable company, but a lot of the technology that they have, they didn't invent. 00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:13.039 Well, and and on top of it, look, now they're totally behind when it comes to AI. 00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:14.639 True, very much true. 00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:18.159 Yeah, they missed the point theory, even though they were the first one, yeah, yeah. 00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:20.320 Yeah, they they have a big issue around that. 00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.239 So I think the early bird gets the worm. 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.840 I'm for better, for worse, I'm ahead, right? 00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:27.039 Always have been. 00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:29.440 You know, we built coin from 2015. 00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:37.840 People that was interesting because on one end, you had the traditional finance people that go AML for crypto, but crypto's all about money laundering. 00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:46.719 Then you had like the crypto, you know, mass sort of guys, and they're like AML for crypto, crypto's never gonna need AML because we are building this totally outside the system. 00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:49.280 And the truth was, you know, in in the middle. 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:55.119 So this isn't my first rodeo kind of being looked at as like a little blessing the path, yeah. 00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:59.119 But but as time goes along, the less crazy uh I look for

sure. 00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:00.079 Oh, for sure. 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:25.119 I mean, I remember like we in 2018 we were launching a loyalty rewards company, and uh it was based on um uh tokens, uh, and so at that time, again, we were based out of Canada, we could not get a single bank in Canada to work with us, and and and and now it's it's standard, you can move from fiat into crypto like it any way that you want with any bank. 00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:29.119 Yeah, I I remember those times, they were kind of fun though. 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:32.400 Wow, like and crazy. 00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:41.840 I mean, the ICO the initial coin offering craziness in 2018, and uh yeah, we we built the first AML, so we were the first who could analyze ERC tokens. 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:50.239 So we were like the first who enabled AML for ICO so that then they could bank the liquidity that they got from it. 00:53:50.320 --> 00:54:09.760 And I had they're like, I would talk, we would be talking to like someone who's about to do an ICO, or like, listen, you're gonna have an issue here soon because you're gonna have 10 million in capital or whatever, yeah, and you're gonna have to only be able to utilize it in a crypto sort of way, you're gonna have a very hard time banking it, utilizing it in the traditional business sense, and they're like, ah da-da-da-da. 00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:16.079 And then they would come back later and like, can you AML the funds that we've already collected because the bank is asking for it. 00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:25.039 So, um, so you know, history uh Mark Twain said, you know, history doesn't repeat but it rhymes, you know. 00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:25.519 Yep. 00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:36.320 So, and I'm a big history guy, so you know what we're doing is revolutionary, but it's not that revolutionary if you look at things through a long time period. 00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:38.480 Yeah, yeah, I know that makes sense. 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:43.840 Um fast forward 10 years, what does Copernic space become? 00:54:44.639 --> 00:55:04.960 We are the de facto de facto uh financial infrastructure and marketplace for uh the space economy, um that is also providing an uh an infrastructure layer that can be extended into micro or private marketplaces. 00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:06.400 Got it, got it. 00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:10.559 And and if you're right, and space becomes the largest economy ever created. 00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:15.440 What's the one thing people they're completely underestimating? 00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:21.360 You know, I'm an internet child. 00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:33.199 Uh and you know, there's there's still X millions of people that you know don't believe that we're even doing things in space, they don't understand the value of space itself. 00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:39.679 So my biggest thing is like space is gonna is the most important market to benefit life on Earth. 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:42.960 I think that's what people are missing in the big game. 00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:46.800 They view it as like musk or whoever they want to escape. 00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:48.960 Yeah, that's not the game. 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:54.639 The game is we run forward to improve where we are, yeah. 00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:55.840 Yeah, for sure. 00:55:55.920 --> 00:56:01.039 What is like pharmaceuticals, what is energy, what is data, what is compute, like just you name it, name it, name it. 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:01.840 Yeah. 00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:03.360 Makes sense. 00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:05.679 Uh satellite imagery for agriculture. 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:06.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:10.800 Maybe not the sexiest thing, but is gonna completely change how we do things. 00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:22.880 Oh, I mean, we're working with uh um with a uh uh uh fire prevention company that's using satellite imagery to kind of understand what could be flare zones and how do we mitigate it. 00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:25.360 Partially the inspiration behind Copernic Space. 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:34.800 My mom went through the Wolsey fires in Malibu, and she realized like this this is completely archaic how we're approaching this thing because there's nothing that's even now nowadays. 00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:40.559 Prevention for it is like we're gonna run drones over mass areas and hopefully it catches something, right? 00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:43.039 So uh, you know, this is just the beginning. 00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:45.840 We're we're starting to talk to wineries, you know, yeah. 00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:56.480 Whether it's sending a bottle in the space and making it objectively more rare, unique, and valuable, or it's you know, how do we optimize your your operations and efficiencies on Earth? 00:56:56.719 --> 00:56:58.000 No, I mean it makes sense. 00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:05.519 I mean, for me, it's like like the whole we are in in a in in an era where we're moving from after to before. 00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:16.320 And so, I mean, I remember we were in Sicily two or three years ago, and we were constantly on the Copernicus satellite just watching where the the fire zones are, like you know. 00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:23.840 Um, but this is after the fact, like, okay, well, there's firehead, it's firehead, it's firehead, that's great, and and it's moving in this direction. 00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:37.440 But like, I'd love to be able to like kind of like like for critical infrastructure, what is like uh the in the states or in Canada, we have the vegetation management, we have different standards in place to prevent this from happening, anyways. 00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:42.880 This has been uh a fabulous conversation, really enjoyed the the conversation, Grant. 00:57:43.039 --> 00:57:44.400 Uh that's awesome. 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:46.880 And and I would love to continue it. 00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:54.400 I just got to jump to present at Phoenix Space Week right now, so I'd happily you know consider the uh continue this privately as well. 00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:55.440 Awesome. 00:57:55.599 --> 00:57:56.480 Okay, thanks. 00:57:57.360 --> 00:57:57.599 Pleasure. 00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:00.000 I'll be in contact, buddy, and thank you for the opportunity. 00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:01.280 Great questions, by the way. 00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:02.000 Thanks. 00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:02.800 Okay, bye. 00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:03.599 See ya.