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about a gut punch. Listen, you just never know what is going to be appealing and what's going to draw an audience. Swept Away is based on an Avett Brothers song, and it has to do with a real-life shipwreck a century or so ago. And I guess, that just wasn't something that people were just jumping to go see. And so they were playing at like 61% capacity. You can't sustain a long-running show that costs hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars a week. So as you listen to this, you also appreciate the fact that you just never know how things are going to work out. And so I'm sure that Tyrone and everybody else involved and Swept away are dealing with the grief of that. (08:34): So as you listen to the show, just know that that's exactly what's going on now. But at the time when we recorded this, we did not know that. Such is the life of an actor. A lot of these children's musicals that he has been a part of has been writing and composing are the result of commissions that have been given to him. (08:59): And so these regional theaters, the Children's Theater in Charlotte, the First Stage Theater in Milwaukee, TheatreWorksUSA, they're commissioning him, "Write us something. We love what you do. We think you're talented. Put something together and we're going to do it." I mean, that's incredible. The guy's got his hands in so many different things, and so it sets himself up for a really long multifaceted careers. So let's just get right to the conversation, shall we? At the top of our talk together, I asked Tyrone, now where did this need, this desire to want to do multiple things come from? He grew up in North Carolina, a small rural town, and there was not a lot of opportunity creatively for someone like Tyrone, and this is what he had to say about that. So, here is my friend and my former student, Tyrone Robinson. Tyrone Robinson (10:00): It's funny, I'm going back to high school to literally senior year of high school and having this desperate. I knew I wanted to direct. I knew I wanted to tell stories. I knew that I wanted to do more than what I was allowed to do in my small North Carolina hometown where there wasn't a lot of opportunity. Literally, there was no money to allow me to do a show that everybody knew. So I literally wrote a musical because I was like, "I want to direct. I want to do something." That was where I first wrote, and it was out of necessity. I think just having a desperate knowing that I wanted to say something, but not really having all the tools there to really be able to do it. So I just created it. From there, figured out and learned, "Oh, I could write." (10:45): I had no idea. So it came just out of necessity for just this desperate need to get my voice out. Acting is such a, I think a craft and such a... I mean, what I learned at the studio especially, it's an art. It's a high art. Back in that time, I had no idea, any idea of what a craft acting was and what a true art form it was, which I learned at the studio. And so from I think going out and coming out into New York and starting my career here, I knew that there were things that I just did not know, skills that I did not have. I would get a note at a rehearsal and wouldn't know what to do with it. Charlie Sandlan (11:22): Listen, you can say, "Fuck" on here. You can say, "What the fuck." Tyrone Robinson (11:24): Yeah, I know. I didn't know what the fuck to do with it. And literally would scratch my head, get sides for an audition. I have no idea what to do with them. And I knew that I was missing something, and that was what brought me to the studio. So, I think starting the first 5 to 6 years of my career, I just got real damn lucky, got into the right spaces and had just enough of the tools to get booked. But then I knew there was a lot missing, and I knew that I just didn't know what I was doing with acting. So, that was what brought me to a place where I could study and get a craft and learn. Charlie Sandlan (11:58): Yeah. But there's not a lot of people that train at a very high level in multiple things. And so, you've got an MFA in writing from NYU, which is that's the top of the top. And then, you spent two years at the studio training as an actor at a very high level. I think that's a three-year program in the NYU? Tyrone Robinson (12:19): It's two, it is two. Charlie Sandlan (12:19): So two-year program there. Two-year program at the Studio. Tyrone Robinson (12:22): It's funny. So I was a musician first, I guess, I started out studying classical violin, studying as a classical musician as a kid, like four years old, five years old. My mom was determined that I was not going to just be in the sticks in North Carolina, so she gave me access to that. So music was the first thing. Music was a second language for me as a kid growing up. Directing was probably the thing that I knew that I didn't have the words for it. I didn't know what it was, but I knew that I loved getting friends of mine, classmates of mine in a room and making plays. I'd be like, "Will you be in a play with me?" So I knew I loved getting people together and making plays, but I didn't know it was called directing at that point. Music was first, I think. Music was always there. (13:07): And it wasn't until I started working. I knew I wanted to be on Broadway. That was a dream from 10 years old, seeing The Whiz, seeing the movie of The Whiz when I was a kid, just sort of spark seeing Black people doing what I loved, doing music, singing like the people at my church, dancing and having a great time. So that was the first sort of spark of, "Oh, I don't know what that is, but I want to do that." And so I think from 10 years old, the aspiration for wanting to be on Broadway and wanting to perform sort of got implanted in me. And so then once I started to pursue it, everything was just about, "Okay, I don't know how to do XYZ, so I just need to go and learn that." And then I think as the years went on and I started to

perform more and started working professionally, I sort of have always worked from a goal position like, okay, what is it that I want to do? And then what is it that I need to learn to be able to do that? Charlie Sandlan (14:03): At 10 years old, if you had seen The Music Man, or if you had seen Oklahoma, would it have been a different experience? I mean to be 10, to go see The Whiz, to see yourself reflected in some way to see an African-American cast. And I think that was a big deal. Tyrone Robinson (14:21): It's so funny. And now, obviously things are much different. I mean, even when I first moved to New York, I'd go to an audition and literally, they're going to cast one Black guy, one Black woman, and that's it. I mean, obviously, now anybody can do anything almost, which is beautiful. I mean, Audra McDonald doing gypsy, and also I come from a family where nobody in my family does theater or art or music or anything like that. I think my mother just knew, she saw an ad in the paper. She was like, "This lady's teaching violin." That's something that's refined and higher at, she knew that that was a higher sort of art form. And so she wanted to give me exposure to that. But my family doesn't do art. They don't do theater. I mean, it wasn't until I did The Lion King, so one of my first big professional jobs, and that was the first time that they realized, "Oh, you can actually make a living doing this theater thing." Charlie Sandlan (15:10): And that was a national tour, right? Tyrone Robinson (15:11): Yeah. Yeah, [inaudible 00:15:12]. Charlie Sandlan (15:12): You did the national tour, you did a five-year run on Book of Mormon. Tyrone Robinson (15:16): Book of Mormon. Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (15:16): A five-year run. Tyrone Robinson (15:19): Man- Charlie Sandlan (15:20): I mean, I don't know how many people that do a five-year commitment. Tyrone Robinson (15:23): The musicals have been a big part of my bread and butter in terms of just being able to have longevity. I'm so thankful, so grateful for these long-running shows. Charlie Sandlan (15:32): What's it like to do a show for five years? Tyrone Robinson (15:34): That particular one, it was incredible. The cast was just top-notch. I'm actually doing this new show that I'm doing now. One of my castmates is in it with me, and we have a ball. We have a ball every day. It's just like, he's like a brother. Book of Mormon, it's a funny- Charlie Sandlan (15:50): Hilarious. Tyrone Robinson (15:50): ... irreverent, smart musical. So you're bringing joy to people every night, just hearing the laughter. I don't know if I could do a really hard emotional, heavy drama lift for that long, but a smart, irreverent comedy. Charlie Sandlan (16:05): I mean, I'm sure were there stretches where you're like, "This is just a fucking job. I don't want to do this right now. I just got to go in and do my thing, but I'm tired or I'm pissed at half the fucking [inaudible 00:16:19]." I mean, you've got a lot of personalities. You're juggling a lot of things. How do you navigate the times when it's not fun art I'm happy to be doing something, and it's like the real grind of like, "Okay, this is life." Tyrone Robinson (16:35): It's work now. It's not a gig. Yeah, yeah. No, I totally know what you mean, what you mean. I guess, one of the ways of I would deal with it is thinking about the fact that people had saved money to be able to buy tickets to the show. People save money all year or save money. So it's a huge chunk of change for a lot of people. When it got really bad or when there were times when I just was like, "All right, I got to take a break." Take a day off, take a mental day off. You do have that option of like, "Okay, I just cannot do it today. I just cannot do it one more time." So, just take a day off. And that was definitely allowed to us. And then ultimately, there was a time where I was like, okay, the travel and the picking up of doing it for so long just started getting to me. And that was ultimately when I was made a decision to leave eventually. Charlie Sandlan (17:21): Just living out of a suitcase, going from city to city? Tyrone Robinson (17:24): Yeah. I mean, we had long sit downs, which was a huge, huge plus. I mean, I have friends. I literally have a buddy in Canada who I just texted with a couple of days ago who I met just on tour, just met through... Like I traveled all over the country, all over North America, so I have friends in different places that I just met while touring. So, that was a huge plus. But at the same time, how many times can you see Montreal or how many times can you go to Chicago or whatever? So, eventually I did decide that it was for me to get back to New York and gross [inaudible 00:17:52]. Charlie Sandlan (17:52): As an actor, what did you learn about needing to sustain yourself through long runs? Because you're doing eight shows a week in five years. I know you got vacations and you got time off, but how do you sustain that artistically, physically, vocally, verbally? Tyrone Robinson (18:07): Sure. Yeah. And sometimes having to do it not at a 100%. Charlie Sandlan (18:11): Right. Sick, cold, not feeling good. Tyrone Robinson (18:14): Yeah. Yeah, I had an incredible voice teacher. I still have an incredible voice teacher who I worked with every week. I'd have a voice lesson with her, and that would help me sort of just check in with where I was vocally. In terms of just the acting and the integrity of telling the story. I have to say, man, and it is almost emotional for me. The cast, like my colleagues, everybody maintained a high level of just commitment to- Charlie Sandlan (18:38): That doesn't happen on every show, every tour, as you know. Tyrone Robinson (18:41): No. And also the creatives would check in. Casey Nicholaw our director and choreographer on Book of Mormon, he would come in. Casey, would come in two or three times a year and check in with the show. His associates would come in. So we

got checked in on every 2 to 3 months. Not that they were micromanaging, but just making sure that things aren't getting too out of the lines, because it is a comedy. So there are moments where you discover a new laugh and then they'd come in and tune it back up and be like, "That's not your moment." Charlie Sandlan (19:13): What do you mean by that? Because that's an interesting thing for actors, I think, to understand when you say, you got to laugh, maybe we shouldn't. And they say, tune it up. You don't want it there. I'm like, what's that all about? Tyrone Robinson (19:23): Yeah. Yeah, so the show is a huge hit. They know how the show works. They know how the pacing works. When I say they, I mean, the directors they know and the stage manager, they know how the pacing of the show works. And so you might be doing another take. An actor who's not the focus at that moment in the scene might be doing another take that gets a response from the audience- Charlie Sandlan (19:43): So stealing focus? Tyrone Robinson (19:44): Stealing focus. Charlie Sandlan (19:47): Upstaging somebody. Tyrone Robinson (19:49): Yeah, upstaging somebody. And you try not to do that. Obviously, you want to be respectful to your scene partners, but it happened a couple of times. Charlie Sandlan (19:56): And you're going to know, they'll say, "Listen, you can't do that." Tyrone Robinson (19:58): Oh, yeah. Hell, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're not going to take away or detract from the storytelling just so you can have a moment. No, they won't go for that. I learned, I mean, it was like a PhD in comedy too, being on that tour for five years. Yeah, just learning stillness. Stillness, just being still. Charlie Sandlan (20:18): Well, talk about that because this was true at the studio. My students right now, I mean, especially in second year, is about getting them to appreciate stillness, eliminating clutter, eliminating all of the extraneous shit. Tyrone Robinson (20:32): Yeah. Well, now, I was in rehearsal yesterday and just knowing how to do it, or not even knowing how to do it, but just knowing how to calibrate in the moment so that you can make smarter choices. The rehearsal is quite collaborative, the process for me of building a show from scratch. And usually, I'm not being told what to do. I'm usually just making stuff up in the scene. If I don't have a line, I'm just there actively listening. And the director will edit, but it's usually about the choices that you make. The director can just trust that you know how to not still focus and you know how to listen actively, how to be connected to the scene in the moment without having to be told what to do. So, I learned a lot of that from being on that tour. Charlie Sandlan (21:15): And that's interesting. So, stealing focus one thing, don't do it. You're going to get yourself... Not only are you going to get notes, but you're going to pissed the other fucking actor off, no doubt. Tyrone Robinson (21:23): Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (21:24): What are some other things that you learned along the way that you're like, "You know what? This is not professional. This is not something you should do." Tyrone Robinson (21:31): Being on time, it's such a simple thing. Charlie Sandlan (21:34): We'll talk about that. What does it mean about being late as a professional actor? Tyrone Robinson (21:38): Yeah. I mean, I've seen actors lose big, big opportunities, lose big jobs, lose... We're into a run of a show. We're three weeks into a run of a show. The show's a hit. We've been extended. It's the hot ticket. And an actor oversleeps a couple of times, or they miss the call time, or the schedule maybe adjusts and they don't catch it. So they're 15 minutes late. Half hour's been called, meaning everybody's at the theater, we're ready to go. Everybody's made up and costumes on, and we're waiting for this person to show up. Nobody can reach him. Stage management's trying to call them and reach them, and it's like, "What are you doing? Come on." So yeah, I've seen that happen. Charlie Sandlan (22:20): They'll fire you for that. Tyrone Robinson (22:22): Yeah. The very worst is that you just don't get the opportunity yet- Charlie Sandlan (22:25): Right. I mean, my students they'll... Tyrone Robinson (22:27): ... in a hit show. Charlie Sandlan (22:27): Right. And my students, they'll roll in at 10:05, 10:10, 10:15. I say, as much as I can, "Get your ass here, it's unacceptable. It will cost you jobs. It will give you a - forget it." Tyrone Robinson (22:41): What, for TV and film. TV and film, I mean, you can't hold up TV because it's so expensive. Charlie Sandlan (22:46): Yeah. Yeah, totally. Now listen, there are few people, I think in the world that fulfill a dream, a childhood dream. When dreams come true, I always find that just so amazing, the dream to be on Broadway, your whole young adult life. Was it "Frozen" was your Broadway debut? Tyrone Robinson (23:09): Yeah, it was my debut. Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (23:09): So, just talk about what that felt like and what that meant to be on that stage and fulfill childhood dream? Tyrone Robinson (23:18): I was helping a friend make a demo for his musical. Walked out of the studio, and my manager called me to basically say... It was a Friday. And she said, "You're on..." I hate this term, but they use it all the time. "You're on stronghold with, whatever." Charlie Sandlan (23:34): Right. What does that mean? Yeah. Tyrone Robinson (23:35): They know they want you, but whatever. But yeah, going to the theater, having one of the stars at the show come out of her dressing room and greet me and hug me and say, "Oh my God, Tyrone, we've been waiting for you." And that cast was a family. There were no people in that building who weren't there for the show and dedicated to telling the story and being a part of a cohesive, loving group. So it was a real beautiful experience that I got to have from my first Broadway show. Charlie Sandlan (24:02): And how did

the reality compare to the dream and the fantasy of it? Tyrone Robinson (24:06): You talk about maintaining eight shows a week. It was a tough schedule, physically, vocally. So I think learning that. Also, it was the first time I had done a show for that long at home, meaning I can go back to my apartment afterward, have my life here. It was hard. I mean, I remember days, matinee days when we'd have a show in the afternoon and then one at night, I'd just sleep at the theater. Four or five of us in a dressing room, we'd just crash at the theater between shows because it was just too little time to go home. And I think just maintaining the integrity and the high level. Nobody has says it, but in unspoken like, this is probably, this is as high as it gets in terms of just the level of expectation, (24:47): Charlie Sandlan (24:47): I mean, nobody has say it. (24:48): No, it's just expected that you'll just show up and do your thing. I remember a big part of doing Book of Mormon on the road was just my warm-up routine. I was really dedicated to warming up every day, warming up every day before the show. Charlie Sandlan (25:03): How long before half hour would you get to the theater to warm up? Tyrone Robinson (25:10): Usually, about half an hour before half hour. So I try to get in about an hour before the show. Because I know my warm-up is usually about 20 to 30 minutes. And so, just to be able to have the space. Because you can't do that thing in a dressing room with five other guys there. So you want to find a space that's quiet and away from everybody so you're not bothering anybody with your mini mini minis and warm up and all that. So I'd find a quiet space so that I wouldn't disturb anybody else. So yeah, about a half an hour before the half hour call, I was there and just ready and in it. I think also at that point, man, I was so hungry because in terms of just, I was right there. I was in a big Broadway national tour. (25:50): I know that people had been transferred to the Broadway company from the tour. That wasn't the only reason why I did it, but I also just wanted to make sure that I was healthy and I was still dreaming about Broadway and dreaming of making my debut. Even at that point I was thinking, "Okay, I just have to keep working harder. I just have to keep getting better and better and better." And once I got on stage and once the show started, I didn't want to ever worry about my voice not being ready. I didn't want to ever worry about not being able to just sing and be free physically and vocally, even though... Like I didn't know any of these. (26:21): I hadn't taken voice speech at the studio, but I just wanted to be free. I wanted to be able to just sing and not have to worry about my voice cracking or any fatigue or injury or anything like that. The expectation was high. I think there's a lot of respect among everybody in the cast because of that. Our Saturday night, we finished the show, and then we all sit around and drink,

have a bar, and we had a bar in the dressing rooms, and we'd sit all around and have a drink. And then, "All right, guys, see? You have a great day off or whatever." I think there was a lot of camaraderie and a lot of respect among the cast because we all were sort of at the top of what we were doing. Charlie Sandlan (26:54): I mean, this'll segue right into what you're doing now, swept away, ate at a brother's, musicals, sorry, I have John Gallagher, how many award winner, no less. Talk to me about that. What's it about and how'd you get the job? Tyrone Robinson (27:12): The Avett Brothers, one of our great American folk rock bands, they're incredible. They actually are from North Carolina. They're from Charlotte, North Carolina, which I didn't know when I first got introduced to the show, but they have an album called Mignonette. The album, Chronicles a whaling ship that goes out in 1888. It doesn't return home. Let's just start there. There are four survivors from that shipwreck, and the four survivors have to make some dire existential decisions about how they're going to survive. And essentially, the show gets down to... It's two brothers who survived, and then the captain of the ship and the first mate on the ship. So those four are the survivors. It's one of the most extraordinary musicals I've ever done. I've never done a musical that is like this. Michael Mayer is our director and he directed Spring Awakening and- (28:04):   (28:04): Man, love being in the room with him. But like Spring Awakening, I feel like Swept Away is maybe a game changer in terms of musical theater. Charlie Sandlan (28:12): Why do he say that? Tyrone Robinson (28:13): It's epic in its storytelling, in its scope. John Logan wrote the book for the musical. He wrote Gladiator, and he's mainly a screenwriter, film writer. He's written this story that goes to these epic places. I mean, it starts off almost like a Shakespearean play, but it's absolutely a folk rock Americana musical. It's incredible. It's funny, I was talking to one of the guys yesterday after rehearsal, we all went out for drinks, and I was saying to one of the guys, I was looking around at the cast and I was like, "With this same cast of 10 men, we could do a play. We could do any American play with these guys." Every single one of us is an actor, singer. (28:52): We all move well. Yeah, it's a great crew. Yeah. And had not done a show for three years. I mean, the pandemic happened, I was doing Frozen on Broadway. That closed, everything closed. I left New York for about three years, went upstate, went to Southern County, and I was there for literally the better part of the pandemic. Started doing some other stuff. I started directing. Regionally, I started doing a lot more writing. I got a couple of writing commissions. It was a time when I think the theater was saying, "Well, we don't have audiences right now, but we can still keep developing work. We can still keep working with people that we have wanted to work with." So I got a couple of commissions that way. And then this audition came out of nowhere for this Arena Stage production, that was the first audition for it. I ended up getting cast in the Arena Stage production. Man, I cannot say enough about working at Arena Stage. I mean, that was just- Charlie Sandlan (29:41): Yeah, Arena Stage in D.C.. If you don't know, one of the great regional theaters in the United States. A lot of shows will end up there before they come to New York. Tyrone Robinson (29:49): Yeah. That was life altering, just having that experience going to one of the premier regional theaters. I was always a bucket list theater for me. I always said to myself when we were in D.C., like if this is as far as I go, I won't be completely happy if the show goes to Broadway and I don't go with it. Charlie Sandlan (30:06): Now, you didn't have to audition again. Did they just offer that to you? Tyrone Robinson (30:10): No, thankfully. Charlie Sandlan (30:13): That's incredible. Tyrone Robinson (30:13): Yeah, and just what a gift. The other thing was when we did the show at Arena, we broke box office records for Arena in terms of single ticket sales - Charlie Sandlan (30:22): That's saying something, that theater's been around for what, 50, 60 years? Tyrone Robinson (30:24): Yeah. Over 2 million of ticket sales, and we extended, extended. So there was already buzz, even from Arena about Broadway. But Broadway, you just don't know. Charlie Sandlan (30:35): This would be a big Toni show for sure. Is this an open-ended run? Tyrone Robinson (30:38): Yeah, open-ended. Man, our scenic design, like Rachel Hawke did our scenic design. It's unreal. Audiences are going to be blown away. I was blown away the first several times that I saw our scenic design. To see it in action, it's unreal. I'm one of the shipmates one, the sailors in the show. I study the captain character, who's one of the four survivors. Preparation is everything. Preparation is everything. Listening, listening, listening, listening. Charlie Sandlan (31:02): Oh yeah, man. Listening is the key. Tyrone Robinson (31:04): Yeah. And I keep getting reminded every day, listen, listen to our director. The thing that I'm learning about Michael, he is so collaborative. And to watch him listen, listen to somebody who has an idea and to say, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's try it." To not have to be the biggest ego or the biggest have all the ideas in the room. Charlie Sandlan (31:25): Right. Listen to the director, very important. How many times does a director have to say the same note again? If they've given an actor a note and then next rehearsal has to give it again because it wasn't listened to? Tyrone Robinson (31:40): Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (31:40): Does that happen at that level? Tyrone Robinson (31:40): It does not. Charlie Sandlan (31:43): That's why I tell my students. Tyrone Robinson (31:44): I mean, unless there was just a misunderstanding, but usually- Charlie Sandlan

(31:46): Yeah, and that's why I tell my students... No, they're learning, right? They're learning what it means to be an actor, but I'll break something down, I'll be very specific. I'll tell them exactly what they need for next class, they come in and they don't have it. And then I say, "Well, what did I say to you? What did I say to you?" Can't tell me. Tyrone Robinson (32:05): Professionally, this will get you fired. Professionally, this will not look good. Nobody wants to repeat themselves. Charlie Sandlan (32:11): The one I tell you. Tyrone Robinson (32:13): No. And I literally have notes. This is going to sound funny, but I have handwritten notes that Michael wrote. I mean, not many. I have maybe three notes that he gave me when we were at Arena Stage. I saved those notes. I have the handwritten, because it's just like, "Michael Mayer gave me a note." The thing too, and this is funny, because being on the other side of the table when I'm directing. For a director, they need to be able to see the whole thing. At least the way that I work. (32:39): I like to be able to see the whole thing so then I can edit. They can't make choices on their end until they can see how the whole picture looks- Charlie Sandlan (32:47): Yeah, absolutely. Tyrone Robinson (32:48): ... if that makes any sense? So if you continue to do something wrong or not be able to get the note or not be able to show them what they're trying to see, it's frustrating because they can't then see the big picture to be able to do what their part of the process is, which is to edit it and tweak it and make sure the story is cohesive and all that stuff. Like we have to be able to do our thing, not be perfect, but be able to get the note. Charlie Sandlan (33:13): And make choices, you got to come in with ideas. Tyrone Robinson (33:15): And make choices. Charlie Sandlan (33:16): You can't just come in and wait for a director to tell you what to do. Tyrone Robinson (33:19): No, no. And that's the thing I loved about being in the show at Arena, we built all of our sort of stage business. I built my character. I mean, I have a whole name for him. I have a whole past life for him. I have all the things that - Charlie Sandlan (33:33): And that's not given to you in the script? Tyrone Robinson (33:35): No, no. My sailor is based on my grandfather who worked on ships in Coastal Carolina. He was a longshoreman, made his living that way, was able to make a high wage at that point with a fifth grade education. So my character is based very heavily on him and his history. Charlie Sandlan (33:53): How did this homework important? Homework help you with the behavior that you ultimately create every night? Tyrone Robinson (33:59): Yeah. Well, understanding his lineage, where he came from. There's a bit of Native American influence there, so we were able to tie that in. I was worked with Susan Hilferty, our costume designer and some research that she had done, just understanding how these men got to be

on these ships. And then I have a love back at home. So at a certain point, I write a letter to them. So, I ask props for a notebook so that I could have a notebook to write the letter, and I carry this with me in my pocket. So all these sort of little choices, all based on the character and who I've created. Charlie Sandlan (34:33): That's awesome. So at some point in the show- Tyrone Robinson (34:36): You taught me how to do it. Charlie Sandlan (34:37): Yeah. So at some point, you're pulling out that notebook and you're writing a letter. Tyrone Robinson (34:43): Yeah. I have a whole moment on stage where I just stay there and write a letter during a song that's happening on another part of the stage. Charlie Sandlan (34:49): And that's not in the script? Tyrone Robinson (34:51): No, no. I did it in rehearsal at Arena, and Michael never changed it, so that's my business now in that moment. Charlie Sandlan (34:57): That's awesome. Actors, you've got to have ideas, and you're never going to be better than your ideas. Tyrone Robinson (35:03): Yeah. Oh, but you know what, Charlie, I used to... Man, I used to be so scared of activities than bringing in activities in the room. Charlie Sandlan (35:08): Sure. Well, what was scary about it? I mean, I get that when you're training and there's a fear of behavior, fear of making a wrong choice maybe, or you think it could be rejected and I don't want to be told that this is stupid, or what the fuck are you doing? Tyrone Robinson (35:24): Yeah, yeah. Just not knowing whether it was going to work or not. I guess the not knowing, being at a point where I was still learning and still trying to figure it all out. And I guess, fear of failure. Charlie Sandlan (35:35): Sure. Tyrone Robinson (35:35): But your voices in my head a lot like, "Fail better next time, fail..." And also, I've never had a director be angry that I made a choice and that it didn't work. Charlie Sandlan (35:46): Right, they want that. Tyrone Robinson (35:47): Yeah Charlie Sandlan (35:48): I rather it show me something. I can say, "Not that," and maybe it'll give them an idea. Tyrone Robinson (35:53): Yeah. Right. It's like - Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (35:54): I'm not that, but how about this? And then it becomes collaborative. But if you're not bringing in anything, forget it. Tyrone Robinson (36:00): Yep. Yeah. Well, in TV, I think it's even more essential because now we're... At least in my experiences so far, you're not getting a lot of rehearsal for TV. Charlie Sandlan (36:11): Right. Maybe a walkthrough, maybe a blocking rehearsal. Tyrone Robinson (36:14): Yeah, basic blocking. Yeah, like basic blocking. So [inaudible 00:36:18]. Charlie Sandlan (36:17): Well, so you're a theater man, you're a theater actor, what did you learn about being on New Amsterdam, The Blacklist, FBI Most Wanted, I mean, you're carving also a television career for yourself. What have you had to adapt and what are the big differences? Tyrone Robinson (36:32): I love TV. Charlie Sandlan (36:34): Well, that's where the money is too. Tyrone Robinson (36:36): That too. Yeah, I like that check. Charlie Sandlan (36:38): I mean, yeah. You got to be able to do your theater, you better be able to go off and do some film and television. Tyrone Robinson (36:44): Yeah, yeah. Literally, I'm thinking about that. Now, I want to do more TV. So, I got cast on New Amsterdam for one episode, co-star. Michael Slovis was our director. I didn't know at the time, had no idea that Michael was one of the executive producers of the show and executive produced Walking Dead director. He's a major, major cinematographer, which it goes to show you, "Do your homework," because I had no idea. I didn't know until they offered me more episodes. I actually looked him up and I was like, "Oh, shit." Charlie Sandlan (37:11): So originally, you were booked as a co-star? Tyrone Robinson (37:14): Yeah, one episode co-star, I'll never forget, I did a scene with Ryan Eggold, star of the show, and we had this scene where we're walking up these stairs. So we did the scene maybe once or twice more. They wanted to change some camera angles and get us from a different position. But then shortly after that, I got a call. My agent basically was saying, "They want to offer you two more episodes." Charlie Sandlan (37:34): Same role? Same role, expanded the role? Tyrone Robinson (37:37): They expanded the role Charlie Sandlan (37:39):  That's fucking unbelievable. That's awesome. Tyrone Robinson (37:41): Man, I was so, so thrilled and so just excited. Charlie Sandlan (37:45): What's the role? Tyrone Robinson (37:46): Jenkins is last name, but he works at the hospital. He does basically custodial, but it's funny, they built the character as sort of this moral center. He's like a moral center for Ryan Eggold, who's the star of the show. The role could have been read very serious, very stern, very like Mufasa asking and all that bullshit, but I threw some humor in there. I was like, "I think he loves his job and everything's light for him." So I just lightened it up a little bit and just had fun with it. And I enjoyed working with Ryan too. Charlie Sandlan (38:16): You just never know, you have a co-star as a couple lines, and you come in there and do your job, make it interesting, and you probably bring in some humor. Probably blew the scene open in a way that they hadn't even anticipated. Tyrone Robinson (38:29): Maybe. So, I think the scene was definitely one that could have been more like stern and stoic and I just went a different direction. Also, I'm remembering in the self tape process, like I was upstate, making self tapes, and I had done... Now, they had called me in for an episode before that and I hadn't gotten it. Once they saw that I was fit in the world of the show, they called me in for this other character, and that was what finally was the fit. Charlie Sandlan (38:57): What does that mean to fit into the world of the show? Because I tell my

students, "Listen, you've got to watch everything because you've got to see the world of the show. You got to understand, what's out there that you're right for? So what does that mean to you to know that you're right for the world of this particular- Tyrone Robinson (39:10): Sure. Yeah, yeah. So, could you believably be an employee at this hospital? I just literally a few weeks ago went down and just made a list of all the shows that are being shot in New York City right now because I want to do more TV when I can, the minute I can. Are you someone who could populate that world? Charlie Sandlan (39:30): All right. Very important to know that kind of thing, because sometimes actors think, "Oh, I can be in anything." No, not really. Tyrone Robinson (39:36): No. Charlie Sandlan (39:38): Especially- Tyrone Robinson (39:39): Book of Mormon. Charlie Sandlan (39:39): Yeah. Right. If you don't have a sense of humor, you're not going to be doing anything that's comic. And you can't teach that really, can you? I mean, I don't know. I don't think you could teach a sense of humor. Tyrone Robinson (39:48): No. Charlie Sandlan (39:48): You can't teach timing. Tyrone Robinson (39:49): The most important thing I learned about that show is that we're not playing comedy. Every single one of us, the Mormons and the African characters in that show are absolutely playing honestly, we're honestly believing... Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (40:02): It's not a comedy to the people that are living through it. It's real life shit. The stakes are life and death. It's funny to the audience. If you try to be funny, forget it. Tyrone Robinson (40:11): Yeah. That's the worst way to do that. To try to do that audition is to try and make the people behind the table laugh. Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (40:17): Right. You mentioned a few minutes ago about being commissioned to do something. This is another thing that I just- Tyrone Robinson (40:24): Oh, yeah. Charlie Sandlan (40:24): Commissioned writing. Commissions at Children's Theater of Charlotte, First Stage, Milwaukee, TheaterWorksUSA. What does it mean to be commissioned to do something and what is the responsibility that comes along with that? Tyrone Robinson (40:35): These theaters have reached out and have said, "We have an interest in having you write something. We have a certain amount of money that we'll pay you for that." So getting a fee for it, and then being able to basically over a course of time, develop a new play, a new musical as a writer and have them pay me for that. I spent years writing shows and begging people to put my shows on, "Please, produce me, please do a reading of my show." This is the complete opposite. This is them saying, we are going to put your show on our schedule in two years or in a year. You have a year to write it, and we're going to pay you this amount of money. Here's your contract. It's like a whole different approach. Charlie Sandlan (41:12): Do you work well under a deadline like that? Tyrone

Robinson (41:14): That's the best way I work. I'm like everybody else in terms of procrastinating. Write the first draft, write it and let it be bad. Like, let it be bad, just write the first draft. I want to write a horror film, that's my next thing. I really want to write a short horror film because I'd love to direct. Just a short 20 minutes, 30 minutes. So, I'm researching now and figuring out just what is the bad first draft, and just write that. Let it be bad, because the whole rest of the process will be rewriting it and tweaking it, and figuring it out. Charlie Sandlan (41:43): If you're staring at a blank page, it can feel overwhelming. Tyrone Robinson (41:46): Yeah. Trying to write like, get out the first time around. It's not going to happen. I'm sure Jordan Peele, if we asked him, he probably had a lot of drafts before he got to the final one that they shot it. And then when they get it on the set, it's going to be different anyway, so just write the first draft. Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (42:02): Well, one thing I have a lot of respect for with you is because it takes a certain, I think, personality and mentality and openness to want to write for children and develop work for children. And listen, the stuff you've put out, strong inside about Perry Wallace, the Vanderbilt great athlete from the 1960s. You wrote this show that ended up going to the Kennedy Center, right, Show Way. Tyrone Robinson (42:35): Yeah, thank you. Charlie Sandlan (42:36): And Catching the Moon about Toni Stone, the first female baseball player, right, or work in a professional sports league. These are all geared towards children. Just talk about- Tyrone Robinson (42:46): Absolutely. Charlie Sandlan (42:47): ... what it's like to create this projects and where's that passion come from? Tyrone Robinson (42:53): Man, it's so different because you understand that anything that they hear and learn will be something that will stay with them or may stay with them for the rest of their lives. Charlie Sandlan (43:02): Those are core memories when you can affect someone at that age, right? Tyrone Robinson (43:07): Yeah. I mean, seeing The Whiz at 10 years old and it completely changed the trajectory of my whole life. Charlie Sandlan (43:13): Is that where the inspiration came from and just what that experience was for you, or was it something else? Tyrone Robinson (43:18): Yeah, I didn't think about that. Probably, maybe. Yeah. I mean, my dad took us to see The Whiz and seeing the film of it, I wouldn't have even known about musicals at that point until I got to see that. I think so, maybe. And then also, if he had taken us to see, if it had happened at that point, Denzel and Othello, I may have been become a Shakespearean actor. I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. Charlie Sandlan (43:44): I mean, do you find children's books and then adapt them? Is that the process? Tyrone Robinson (43:49): So for Strong Inside, the Perry Wallace story was one that National Children's Theater wanted to tell for a long time, because Vanderbilt is in national- Charlie Sandlan (44:00): Yeah. And then who was Perry Wallace? Tyrone Robinson (44:01): Not only incredible athlete, incredible intellect, smart, smart, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant man. He actually was able to be the first Black person to play professional... Not professional, but play basketball in the SEC as part of the NCAA back in late 1960s. So he basically desegregated the SEC single-handedly. Now, we look at college sports and 80% of the players are Black. There were no Black players at that point in college ball at that level. In going to Vanderbilt, accepting a scholarship there, he was able to basically break the color line. And was doing it at a time when literally they would go to games in these podunk towns in Kentucky, Arkansas, and literally he would be spat at and have people in the stands throwing things at him. (44:53): I mean, can you imagine sitting on the bench and having people throw things at you? And consequently, his teammates were not defending him. His white teammates were not defending him at that time. So he was there alone having to deal with this on his own. And he persevered, and not only was able to make it happen in terms of sticking with it, staying on the team, playing, not giving up, but graduated, became a lawyer, became a lawyer for the government. So, just had a prolific career beyond basketball and beyond sports. Charlie Sandlan (45:21): So how do you get on that rail of racism and just really hard topics, important topics to children? Tyrone Robinson (45:32): Yeah. Well, the first decision that I made was that they had to be able to relate to him, right? They had to not be watching this big sort of Martin Luther King S character, even though he was at that level in terms of what he did. They had to not look at him as something so high that they couldn't achieve that. I wanted them to be able to identify with him and say, "Maybe I could change the world or do something revolutionary just with whatever I do, whatever my skill is, or whatever my gift is." And so, I basically decided that the character who played Perry, we would take him from a child, from him at 10 years old, and we would have him just talk to the audience and relate to them. And really welcome them into his neighborhood, essentially, welcome them into his world so that they can take the journey with him to his time at Vanderbilt. Charlie Sandlan (46:18): You did this in Nashville, but does this get done other cities? I mean, people start to be aware of these things that are available to kids, and they go, "Okay, we'd love to put a production up of this and a production up of that." Tyrone Robinson (46:30): Yeah. We're actually talking to the National Civil Rights Museum right now in Memphis for production in 2026, I think we're talking about. Charlie Sandlan (46:36): That's amazing. Tyrone Robinson (46:37): Yes. Catching the Moon is going to have the show that premiered

at the Charlotte Children's Theater. They're going to have a production in New Jersey at the growing stage in February and March of 2025. Charlie Sandlan (46:50): I mean, you're making an impact. It's one thing to do professional theater for commercial, for-profit theaters, but then to know that you're making an impact on children. Tyrone Robinson (47:02): Do you think- Charlie Sandlan (47:03): So who was Toni Stone? Tyrone Robinson (47:05): She was the first woman to play professional baseball with the men's league. She played with the men, which I can't even imagine. But there were no major professional women's leagues at that time. And she- Charlie Sandlan (47:19): What years are we talking about here? Going back where? Tyrone Robinson (47:21): She was born in 1921. We wrote the show with her at 10, 11 years old in early 1930s, '30, '31. And so she played with the Indiana Clowns, so they were called at that time. She was recruited by this man, Street is his last name. He came into her hometown and basically was doing camps for kids to teach them how to play. And he was scouting out young talent to train to bring up to the Negro Leagues. And then basically from there, she was able to... She was so good that they couldn't deny her. They were like, "You're going to replace literally Jackie Robinson." When he broke the color barrier and moved on to play in the Majors, she replaced him on his team which was the Indiana Clowns. Charlie Sandlan (48:02): And where was that done originally? Tyrone Robinson (48:04): It was done originally, Charlotte. Charlie Sandlan (48:05): Charlotte, Charlotte. Tyrone Robinson (48:05): Charlotte Children's Center. Charlie Sandlan (48:05): Charlotte Children's Center. So, how about Show Way, which... I mean, the Kennedy Center, and I believe he did it at BAM too, right? Tyrone Robinson (48:16): Yeah. It came through BAM. Charlie Sandlan (48:17): Two major, major venues in the art. Tyrone Robinson (48:21): Thank you. Charlie Sandlan (48:22): I mean, that's top of the top. What is Show Way about and how'd you find yourself at the Kennedy Center? Tyrone Robinson (48:30): Jacqueline Woodson wrote this incredible book that tells the story of her family. Seven generations of women from enslavement up to basically modern times today. And they passed down the tradition of quilt making, but not just the tradition of quilt making but the tradition of telling stories in quilts, so in pictures, and helping to message other people who are enslaved to help them to get to freedom. And so these quilts were called Show Ways. And so, Jacqueline wrote this incredible book that tells the story of her own family, and the women in her family to passed out the tradition, and we were commissioned to musicalize that story. Charlie Sandlan (49:05): You're a content machine, man. Tyrone Robinson (49:08): Thank you. Charlie Sandlan (49:09): I mean, really a content making machine. Now, are you interested or thinking about adapting that to an adult audience for either film or a miniseries? Tyrone Robinson (49:19): I would love that. Yeah. It's interesting like- Charlie Sandlan (49:23): These are really important people. I never heard of Toni Stone. I never heard of Percy Wallace before. And these are really important people. I mean, really just busted down some walls. Tyrone Robinson (49:34): The thing that's crazy is how many of us don't know these stories? Charlie Sandlan (49:37): Most people. Tyrone Robinson (49:38): I've never had... Charlie Sandlan (49:38): Right. Tyrone Robinson (49:39): I mean, Lydia R. Diamond wrote a play about Toni Stone. That was the first time I'd heard about her, which is sad. It's unfortunate that we don't know more about their history. Yeah, I would love to adapt it. I think Show Way. The show is being licensed, and it went on a tour. So we did the performance at the Kennedy Center in 2022, and then the Kennedy Center decided to tour it. So they did that this past year. Charlie Sandlan (50:03): So this is a moneymaker for you, and it's like making money while you sleep now. Tyrone Robinson (50:08): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. When I was writing the music for Show Way, the thing that kept coming back to me was Jacqueline's commission to me as a collaborator was I don't want this show to be a kiddie show. She didn't want it to be just for little guys. She wanted the story to be written outside of the absence of the white gaze. She was like, "We're not writing this for white folks necessarily." She were writing this for us and we're doing this for us. And I took that commission on fully and was so happy and proud to write this story that I felt was so important to tell, because not enough of us know the brilliance and the genius of these women who were basically using everything they had to help free each other and free people future generations. Charlie Sandlan (50:58): This is so interesting, you just said the absence of the white gaze. Tyrone Robinson (51:03): As a writer, all the choices that I make can either go one direction or another. They can go the direction of, "I'm going to try to appease someone, an audience member. I'm going to try to make choices that are safe and that don't offend anybody." Being ultra-conscious or super-conscious of the white fragility. When I'm thinking about music choices and musical styles and genre that I can use in writing this score for this show, I could choose anything. Like there's no wrong answer, really. I chose very specifically to focus on rhythms, to focus on... There's an absence of drums that happen for enslaved people. There's a stone over a billion that happened in the 1700s. Drums were taken away from Black people who were enslaved. So I very specifically chose to use rhythms as almost like a call to action in writing the score. (51:56): And so there's a moment when I use Ring Shout, which is tradition passed down in African music traditions, the Gullah tradition in South Carolina. So using very

specific choices, Black people will know this, they'll identify with it as part of our blood DNA. So making choices that are not even thinking about the viewer, not even thinking about the white audience, not even thinking about being inclusive and making it safe for everybody to consume. There's something ancestral and something deeper happening in the writing, because I'm calling back things that were taken away from us. Charlie Sandlan (52:30): Right back in the pandemic, within the acting community, in terms of professional actors, there was that letter that was written to the white theater from the Black actor's perspective. It was very profound. It was very jolting. I'm just wondering, as a man of color or someone that's been having to navigate in this business, what have you had to come up against where you've just be like, "This is racist, this is bullshit, this is marginalization." Is it as toxic? Is that letter made it up to be? Tyrone Robinson (53:06): I was joking with a white actor, friend of mine, actor who I directed maybe three years ago in a play. We were joking, and I was saying to him, I spent an entire season one year, maybe in 2008 playing a slave, a stevedore, a servant. I spent an entire theatrical season only playing slaves as an actor. I mean, this was like 2008. Those were the jobs that were available. Those were the jobs that were offered, and so I made a choice to accept those jobs. I'm not complaining about the jobs, but those were the roles that were being offered at that time to someone like me. He was joking that he had played a Nazi, a racist. He was joking about the season that he had played as a white, blonde hair, blue-eyed guy. What that did, it was so important and so instrumental in bringing awareness because I'm sure that there were people who just weren't aware. (53:58): There were producers or people in power in the theater who just weren't aware because as you mentioned, blind spot. I'm sure that I have my own blind spots as a man of color and as a man in the theater. So I think it brought awareness, and I think also it was a call to action and a commission to the American theater to say, "Hey, do better. Be more inclusive." I can't imagine what would've happened if we had not gotten that letter, and if there had not been such an uproar. If we had gone back to business as usual, what would Broadway look like this season? It ruffled feathers, but I think feathers needed to be ruffled. Absolutely. I think people needed to be called out. I wasn't part of writing a letter, so I can't speak to how they chose to call out who they called out, but I think that it needed to happen. Charlie Sandlan (54:46): Are there things now that you won't do? Tyrone Robinson (54:48): Yes, absolutely. It's not that I won't play an enslaved person, but I will absolutely look very deeply at why this story is being told and what perspective the story's being told from. There's this book out now, James. It's adaptation of the book,

the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, and this book, James takes the perspective of, or the point of view of Jim, of the enslaved person. And so you sort of experienced the story of Huckleberry Finn, that same Mark Twain book, but from the perspective of the enslaved person, from James, from James point of view. And so it is interesting that those stories are being told now. We're co-opting and taking the stories and telling them from our own story, from our own perspective. Charlie Sandlan (55:30): Yeah. I'm so impressed with you. I'm so proud of you. Tyrone Robinson (55:35): Thank you so much brother. Charlie Sandlan (55:35): You're inspirational. I think you provide a real example of what it means to be an artist with integrity, what it means to be an artist with some vision, and somebody that's willing to put themselves out there in multiple ways. You're carving out an incredible career and you're- Tyrone Robinson (55:56): Thank you. Charlie Sandlan (55:57): ... a really good human being. Tyrone Robinson (55:59): Thank you. Charlie Sandlan (56:00): So I'm really just excited for you and what lies ahead. Tyrone Robinson (56:07): Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for giving me be parts of the building blocks to help me to do all the things that I'm able to do. Thank you. Charlie Sandlan (56:12): Of course. Of course. So let's get out of here on this. You've been working as a professional for how many years now? Tyrone Robinson (56:18): 20, 2 decades. Charlie Sandlan (56:21): Well over two decades. What would you like to say to everyone out there that's grinding it out, that has their own dreams and aspirations, perhaps unfulfilled at this point about what it means to live a professional, creative life? Tyrone Robinson (56:38): Don't ever, ever, ever, ever give up. Just don't ever give up. If I can make my Broadway debut at 41 years old, waiting tables, catering, going back to school, getting retrained, be adaptable, be willing to accept that you may not know everything that you need to know. Go back and learn more. Learn more, try to grow and don't ever, ever, ever give up because it just might happen. Charlie Sandlan (57:05): Well, my fellow daydreamers, thank you for sticking around and keeping that phone in your pocket. Please subscribe and follow this show. If you got a few seconds, can you go to iTunes and write a written review? That would mean a hell of a lot to me. You can also go to https://www.creatingbehaviorpodcast.com. Go to the contact page, hit that red button. I use SpeakPipe. You can leave me a voice message. I will get back to you, answer some of your questions. You can share with me some of your thoughts. You can also go to https://www.maggieflaniganstudio.com if you are interested in training with me at my New York City studio. And of course, you can follow me on Instagram @creatingbehavior, @maggieflaniganstudio. Lawrence Trailer, thank you for the song, my man. My friends, stay resilient, playful out with yourself, and don't ever settle for your second best. My name is Charlie Sandlan. Peace. Lawrence Trailer (58:05): (singing), it's not enough. (singing), it's not enough. It's not enough. It's not enough. It's not enough. It's not enough. It's not enough.