Transkrip lengkap untuk One Big Beautiful Econ Con?

The Capital Order, and James Robinson, university professor at the 74 00:04:36.870 --> 00:04:39.899 Harris School for Public Policy and the Department of Political 75 00:04:39.939 --> 00:04:42.980 Science at the University of Chicago. Yeah, I tried to 76 00:04:43.019 --> 00:04:46.019 get in there, but apparently there's like a test that 77 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.920 you have to take to get in. But James Robinson, 78 00:04:49.459 --> 00:04:53.959 Nobel Prize awardee in 2024 for economic sciences. Welcome to 79 00:04:54.060 --> 00:04:57.680 both of you. and so pleased that you can join 80 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:01.339 us today. I would like to start, if we could, 81 00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:04.000 I want to step back for a moment. We'll get 82 00:05:04.050 --> 00:05:07.889 into the tax and spending bill that we've got and 83 00:05:07.910 --> 00:05:12.490 the priorities that the United States budget is going to 84 00:05:12.529 --> 00:05:16.079 be pursuing. But I want to step back for a 85 00:05:16.100 --> 00:05:21.439 moment to ask the question. I think in this country, 86 00:05:21.860 --> 00:05:25.769 we have the idea that we live in a free 87 00:05:25.850 --> 00:05:34.050 market economy. The mythology is it's an Adam Smith, laissez-faire, 88 00:05:34.529 --> 00:05:37.269 invisible hand. If government just gets out of the way, 89 00:05:37.410 --> 00:05:40.129 and it does, the market takes care of itself. So 90 00:05:40.250 --> 00:05:43.500 if I could, I just want you to address the 91 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:48.339 realities of whether or not we live in a centrally 92 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:51.839 planned or a free market. Where are we at on 93 00:05:51.899 --> 00:05:56.290 the capitalism, socialism, continuum. Clara, I'll start with you. 94 00:05:56.899 --> 00:05:58.800 Thank you so much, John, for having me on. 95 00:05:58.899 --> 00:05:59.220 Please. 96 00:05:59.259 --> 00:06:02.709 It's a real pleasure. So the free market is a 97 00:06:02.790 --> 00:06:06.639 myth in the approach I take to economics in the 98 00:06:06.699 --> 00:06:10.459 sense that there is nothing spontaneous or natural that pops 99 00:06:10.660 --> 00:06:14.040 up out of the essence of who we are. This 100 00:06:14.180 --> 00:06:16.879 is how we just tend to think of the market 101 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:18.899 because it's the way in which we tend then to 102 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:22.470 accept the market. But really, the market, as I show, 103 00:06:22.550 --> 00:06:26.329 has to be constantly protected by the state in order 104 00:06:26.370 --> 00:06:29.540 to secure what is at the foundation of it, which 105 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.100 is not just about exchange. It's really about people having 106 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.439 no alternative but to sell their capacity to work for 107 00:06:36.459 --> 00:06:39.319 a wage. So the labor market is the foundation of 108 00:06:39.339 --> 00:06:42.670 what we usually call market. But this labor market entails 109 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:47.769 a certain coercion, a certain constraint, a limit of possibilities, 110 00:06:48.110 --> 00:06:51.209 the sense that people have really no alternative but to 111 00:06:51.230 --> 00:06:53.310 go work for a wage and usually a very low one. 112 00:06:53.709 --> 00:06:55.889 And so in this way, the state has to protect 113 00:06:55.930 --> 00:06:58.220 this so-called market, which is not at all a world 114 00:06:58.259 --> 00:07:01.319 of freedom, but I would say a world of unfreedom 115 00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:06.480 because it presupposes this ultimate coercion that we can call exploitation. 116 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:07.139 James? 117 00:07:07.699 --> 00:07:11.850 Yes. Thank you for having me on. I mean, my perspective, 118 00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:14.009 I suppose, is a bit different in that I think 119 00:07:14.069 --> 00:07:16.790 there's lots of imperfections in the market. I would say 120 00:07:16.810 --> 00:07:19.069 what we've got in the United States is something like 121 00:07:19.110 --> 00:07:22.860 a mixed economy that You have government. The government does 122 00:07:22.899 --> 00:07:26.540 lots of important things. It does significant things. You have 123 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:31.079 imperfections in the market. You have monopolies. You have barriers 124 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:35.379 to entry. But there is competition. You know, there is competition. 125 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.829 There is, you know, you like Tesla cars, you buy 126 00:07:38.850 --> 00:07:42.009 a Tesla car. That's bad for General Motors. It's bad 127 00:07:42.029 --> 00:07:46.069 for Toyota, you know. So, you know, I think competition 128 00:07:46.610 --> 00:07:49.629 and choice, it's imperfect, but it is there. 129 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:55.060 I guess the question then becomes, so what generally my 130 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:59.259 position on this has always been that when the government 131 00:07:59.379 --> 00:08:04.949 intervenes on behalf of corporate interest, that is seen as 132 00:08:05.009 --> 00:08:12.990 a natural extension of capitalism. That subsidizing a corporation or 133 00:08:13.170 --> 00:08:18.980 corporate tax cut or creating a zero interest window at 134 00:08:19.019 --> 00:08:22.199 the Fed Those are all interventions on behalf of corporations. 135 00:08:22.459 --> 00:08:29.500 But if the government intervenes on behalf of workers or individuals, 136 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.490 whether it be so-called entitlements or whether it be setting 137 00:08:34.809 --> 00:08:40.110 wage standards or those things, that's considered antithetical. It's still 138 00:08:40.149 --> 00:08:45.889 government intervention, but it's somehow anti-capitalist. And so that's kind 139 00:08:45.909 --> 00:08:49.200 of where I want to start in our discussion. 140 00:08:49.539 --> 00:08:53.090 Discussion. Why do you think that is? Why are those 141 00:08:53.129 --> 00:08:54.330 interventions different? Clara? 142 00:08:55.309 -->

00:08:59.009 Well, I think you really point, John, your finger to 143 00:08:59.049 --> 00:09:02.019 the essence of it all, which is we live in 144 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:06.799 a capitalist economy that by definition works according to two pillars, 145 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:11.620 wage labor and private command over investment. So what the 146 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:13.340 governments are meant to do- Would. 147 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:15.720 That be considered capital and labor? Is that sort of 148 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:16.559 what we're talking about? 149 00:09:16.580 --> 00:09:17.179 Yes, exactly. 150 00:09:17.379 --> 00:09:19.840 Exactly. Capital and labor, right? The fact that people go 151 00:09:19.899 --> 00:09:22.750 work for a wage and others instead command investment in 152 00:09:22.769 --> 00:09:25.129 the sense that decide for all of us how to 153 00:09:25.190 --> 00:09:28.889 invest and where according to the logic of profit. So this, 154 00:09:29.029 --> 00:09:33.049 by definition, requires the governments to kind of maintain these 155 00:09:33.129 --> 00:09:37.419 pillars alive. for the system to be able to accumulate 156 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:41.299 as it should, right? The capital accumulation, which is economic growth. 157 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:43.320 We tend to call it economic growth because it sounds 158 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:46.600 less political. It sounds more kind of neutral. But actually, 159 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.509 economic growth presupposes these pillars, which mean that the natural 160 00:09:50.570 --> 00:09:54.149 doing of the government is very interventionist, but only in 161 00:09:54.190 --> 00:09:56.230 a way that protects the two pillars, which means you 162 00:09:56.269 --> 00:09:58.610 can't give too much rights to workers because they might 163 00:09:58.649 --> 00:10:00.960 decide not to go work for a wage, while you 164 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:05.440 should always incentivize private investment and subsidize and de-risk because 165 00:10:05.500 --> 00:10:08.360 we kind of all depend on the decisions. 166 00:10:08.590 --> 00:10:09.570 Makers and takers. 167 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:14.149 Yes. If government steps in on behalf of makers, that's 168 00:10:14.190 --> 00:10:17.350 acceptable because that has virtue. But if you step in 169 00:10:17.409 --> 00:10:22.070 on behalf of labor or you know, able-bodied non-labor, the takers, 170 00:10:22.370 --> 00:10:26.129 that would be moral hazard and those kinds of things. James, 171 00:10:26.269 --> 00:10:30.230 do you think that's a fair sort of as we're 172 00:10:30.269 --> 00:10:32.210 setting our tent posts for the discussion? 173 00:10:32.769 --> 00:10:35.769 I mean, I think it's right that that's the direction 174 00:10:35.809 --> 00:10:39.129 that American capitalism has evolved in, you know, but, you know, 175 00:10:39.169 --> 00:10:41.009 it's not true historically. If you went back to the 176 00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:44.250 1930s and thought about

the New Deal or the Wagner 177 00:10:44.389 --> 00:10:47.669 Act or the Roosevelt government, There was plenty of intervention 178 00:10:47.730 --> 00:10:51.649 trying to strengthen unions and strengthen collective bargaining. I think 179 00:10:51.690 --> 00:10:54.889 it's just really the way things have gone here since 180 00:10:55.009 --> 00:10:58.429 Ronald Reagan and that whole kind of embrace of this 181 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:02.820 anti-status model of capitalism. So I don't think it's inevitable. 182 00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:05.879 Look at Scandinavia. They have capitalism in Sweden, but they 183 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:09.080 have a very different attitude towards collective bargaining and labor. 184 00:11:09.379 --> 00:11:12.000 But James, also, you bring up a really interesting point 185 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:16.139 because when we talk about Scandinavian countries or social democracies, 186 00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:20.879 in America, there is a patina of disdain. There is 187 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:24.080 always that, you know, go live in Denmark. You know, 188 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.679 there's a sense that that is not the proper use 189 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:33.620 of government and capital. I'm talking about the sort of 190 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:37.909 the vibe from American capitalists. 191 00:11:38.210 --> 00:11:42.450 And if I may, ultimately what's important to note is 192 00:11:42.490 --> 00:11:46.629 that even during the Keynesian period, the governments had very. 193 00:11:46.669 --> 00:11:48.590 Keynesian period being the 30s when they were stimulating. 194 00:11:48.610 --> 00:11:51.879 Keynesian period being the 30s and the immediate post-Second World War. 195 00:11:51.980 --> 00:11:53.919 So the moment in which supposedly the state was doing 196 00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:59.500 what James is saying, which is more kind of pro-labor policies. 197 00:11:59.779 --> 00:12:02.320 We need to remind ourselves that, and I'm studying this 198 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:05.350 period at the moment, there are clear political limits to 199 00:12:05.379 --> 00:12:07.990 what the state can do. Because exactly if the state 200 00:12:08.009 --> 00:12:12.909 gives too much to people- it risks curtailing that market 201 00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:16.789 dependence that secures wage labor. So again, those pillars, of course, 202 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.580 there's ways in which you can try to be less 203 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:23.000 pro-capital only and try to secure more of a sense 204 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:29.059 of of neutrality and global interest. But at the same time, 205 00:12:29.100 --> 00:12:31.899 those pillars need to be maintained. And I was inviting 206 00:12:31.980 --> 00:12:35.299 actually in Sweden and Iceland to talk about austerity because 207 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:37.840 we don't talk about it, but in those countries too, 208 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:41.210 in the supposed Scandinavian countries, they're affected by the same 209

00:12:41.269 --> 00:12:43.809 type of policies that we've been affected in in the 210 00:12:43.850 --> 00:12:46.850 United States. So we tend to idealize those countries as 211 00:12:46.909 --> 00:12:49.350 being like a fair version of capitalism. If you hear 212 00:12:49.370 --> 00:12:51.690 what they have to say, I was actually invited by 213 00:12:51.710 --> 00:12:55.000 the unions themselves there. They have a very different understanding 214 00:12:55.019 --> 00:12:56.059 of what's happening to them. 215 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:59.320 What is their understanding then, Claire? Would they look at 216 00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:01.970 it as it's still not fair enough to workers? What 217 00:13:02.309 --> 00:13:03.289 is their position? 218 00:13:03.710 --> 00:13:07.720 Well, they... feel the constant attack of social rights being 219 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.980 taken away from them. And they understand, for example, deflation. 220 00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:14.299 So the increase of interest rate that we saw in 221 00:13:14.350 --> 00:13:18.049 the last years affected those countries as well. And the 222 00:13:18.110 --> 00:13:20.970 whole conversation was about how there should be more wage 223 00:13:21.029 --> 00:13:24.230 moderation in order to allow for price stability. So this 224 00:13:24.250 --> 00:13:28.269 whole thing about wages having to kind of be decreased 225 00:13:28.370 --> 00:13:31.360 in favor of price stability, this is a typically capitalist 226 00:13:31.389 --> 00:13:33.320 compromise that they can't escape. 227 00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:35.409 So this brings us to our discussion. 228 00:13:35.490 --> 00:13:38.830 I think we've sort of framed it out, which is this, 229 00:13:38.850 --> 00:13:42.120 because I think, Clara, you put it very well, that 230 00:13:42.429 --> 00:13:48.480 ultimately the stimulus that generally comes under attack is stimulus 231 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.639 that occurs on the demand side as being too generous, 232 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:58.759 whether it be SNAP benefits or Medicare or Medicaid. You know, James, 233 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.779 you brought up the New Deal and intervening there. Well, 234 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:06.309 that was in a global economic depression. And in some ways, 235 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:11.789 might have staved off a larger socialist or communist revolution 236 00:14:12.870 --> 00:14:17.590 in this country. So James, why do you think it 237 00:14:17.710 --> 00:14:22.840 is that when we're faced with this idea of fiscal responsibility, 238 00:14:24.269 --> 00:14:29.919 the thing we turn to generally first is those that 239 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:35.700 have the least. What is it about that politically that 240 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:40.059 makes that the first target as opposed to offshore profits 241 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.259 that aren't brought back to the United States? 242 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:48.190 Well, because they're the least powerful and they're the least organized. 243 00:14:48.269 --> 00:14:49.309 Wait, it's that simple? 244 00:14:49.350 --> 00:14:51.210 That's not rocket science, is it? 245 00:14:51.669 --> 00:14:56.570 Son of a bitch. That's simply it. They're the easiest 246 00:14:56.629 --> 00:14:57.190 to go after. 247 00:14:58.250 --> 00:14:59.029 I think so, yeah. 248 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:02.870 So you're somebody, James, who I think your work is 249 00:15:02.909 --> 00:15:07.970 very much on evidence-based economic theory and using that evidence 250 00:15:08.289 --> 00:15:17.169 to design healthier economies, right? Is that the healthiest option? 251 00:15:17.389 --> 00:15:22.409 Is there a different design other than austerity that we 252 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:29.110 can think about for central government intervention? Because we know 253 00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:33.350 they intervene. We've already established they intervene. What's a healthier 254 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:36.529 intervention than just austerity? Or is that the best move? 255 00:15:37.610 --> 00:15:40.549 I think there's just lots of complicated trade-offs there. I 256 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:44.460 think if you think about the history of economics, economics 257 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:48.860 arose in the late 18th century to try to understand 258 00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:52.450 what the heck was going on with the Industrial Revolution 259 00:15:52.470 --> 00:15:55.179 and Adam Smith and all of that. And economics has 260 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.519 always gone backwards and forwards between sort of trying to 261 00:15:57.580 --> 00:16:01.440 justify this as the best possible thing and struggling to 262 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:08.100 think of alternatives and what might alternatives look like. You 263 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:10.519 could say a very limited number of alternatives have really 264 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.700 been experimented with. You could think of communism or Cuba 265 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:17.159 or whatever it is, but obviously that's a very specific 266 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.200 sort of alternative. And I think economists are just very 267 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.240 bad at thinking about alternatives. Definitely. 268 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.200 Hey, what do you got there? Business? 269 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:34.700 You realize your business needed to hire someone and you 270 00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:36.460 needed them yesterday? Well, how are you going to find it? 271 00:16:36.460 --> 00:16:39.220 How are you going to find amazing candidates fast? What 272 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.639 do you got to walk outside? Ask people directly that 273 00:16:43.659 --> 00:16:44.460 just use indeed. 274 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:46.440 Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other 275 00:16:46.460 --> 00:16:46.860 job sites. 276 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:52.289 Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast. 277 00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:55.350 Sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the 278

00:16:55.389 --> 00:16:59.250 page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the 279 00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:01.210 people you want faster. 280 00:17:01.230 --> 00:17:02.269 What do you want to be on the bottom of 281 00:17:02.289 --> 00:17:05.759 the page? Come on. You're the boss. This is your business. 282 00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:07.660 Get yourself to the top of the page. 283 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.279 For God's sakes. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted 284 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:18.579 directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than the non-sponsored jobs. 285 00:17:19.660 --> 00:17:23.470 With Indeed sponsored jobs, there's no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts. 286 00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:26.190 You only pay for results. What more do you want 287 00:17:26.230 --> 00:17:30.329 from these people? How fast is Indeed? In the minute 288 00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:34.829 I've been talking to you, and it might feel like longer, 289 00:17:34.829 --> 00:17:37.369 23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed data. 290 00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:38.579 That's worldwide. 291 00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:42.440 Join the 3.5 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to 292 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.420 hire great talent fast. There's no need to wait any longer. 293 00:17:46.539 --> 00:17:48.920 Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners 294 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:53.650 of this show, will get a $ 75 sponsored job credit 295 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.839 to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash weekly. 296 00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:02.599 Just go to Indeed.com slash weekly right now. Support our 297 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.089 show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com 298 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.829 slash weekly. Terms and conditions apply. 299 00:18:09.130 --> 00:18:11.349 Hiring? Indeed is all you need. 300 00:18:16.589 --> 00:18:22.250 Claire, you're nodding your head vigorously uh on economists not 301 00:18:22.289 --> 00:18:26.009 because it does seem like we are stuck in this 302 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:29.640 idea of it's either capitalism or it's socialism or it's 303 00:18:29.720 --> 00:18:32.180 communism and there's no sense that in the words of 304 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.039 spinal tap you can turn the dial you can turn 305 00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:38.420 it to 11 uh what what are the claret does 306 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:39.900 that does that ring true. 307 00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:41.309 To you Well, absolutely. 308 00:18:41.369 --> 00:18:44.650 I think it is very true that the economic profession, 309 00:18:44.769 --> 00:18:49.890 the mainstream economic profession has avoided even problematizing capitalism. If 310 00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:53.190 you open a textbook in economics, you don't even read 311 00:18:53.250 --> 00:18:56.509 the word capitalism. So you can't even understand the specificities 312 00:18:56.569 --> 00:18:58.690 of our system. You just talk about

markets, again, as 313 00:18:58.730 --> 00:19:02.960 something that just happened to exist for human beings to 314 00:19:03.099 --> 00:19:05.799 go along with. So I think this is the issue 315 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.509 is that if we don't problematize what's specific about our system, 316 00:19:08.549 --> 00:19:11.730 that we end up not really having any possibility of 317 00:19:11.769 --> 00:19:15.710 really comparing with other possibilities. And I think the main 318 00:19:15.930 --> 00:19:18.789 thing here is to understand that if we do take 319 00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:21.700 it that our system is based on coercion, we as 320 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.680 human beings can do better in terms of finding out 321 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.619 a way in which we could run production distribution actually 322 00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:30.380 more democratically. In my work, I really show how austerity, 323 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.980 and I think we should define it at a certain point. 324 00:19:33.859 --> 00:19:38.289 Osterity is ultimately all about de-democratizing the economic space. And again, 325 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:40.769 this is not something that is because there's bad people 326 00:19:40.809 --> 00:19:42.809 in government. It would be too easy to say, oh, 327 00:19:42.849 --> 00:19:46.269 it's just because it's evil people or corrupt or irrational. 328 00:19:46.710 --> 00:19:54.950 It's because- It's because there are certain tendencies. Again, I 329 00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:58.480 think this is what is important about more systemic analysis 330 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:02.079 that tells you there are certain tendencies. that are kind 331 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:05.799 of congenial to the system. And this is why ultimately, 332 00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:09.759 I would say, austerity isn't the DNA of capitalism. Then there's, 333 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:12.589 depending on the moment, labor might have a little bit 334 00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:15.809 more power to strike against it. But the reality is 335 00:20:15.869 --> 00:20:20.549 that we have certain clear coercive mechanisms. And so I 336 00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:22.450 think we could do better than this. But the point 337 00:20:22.509 --> 00:20:25.329 is that It's very dangerous to explore alternatives. As I 338 00:20:25.369 --> 00:20:29.930 show in my own book, when alternatives do emerge, they 339 00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:34.990 need to be bugged down and killed very quickly because 340 00:20:35.130 --> 00:20:37.670 they are terrifying for the establishment, those. 341 00:20:37.549 --> 00:20:38.470 Who ultimately gain. 342 00:20:38.509 --> 00:20:38.970 The status quo. 343 00:20:39.329 --> 00:20:41.490 And we need to remember that in this country, just 344 00:20:41.589 --> 00:20:45.869 one data point out of many, the The top 0.1% 345 00:20:45.869 --> 00:20:50.210 owns five times what the bottom 50% of the United 346 00:20:50.269 --> 00:20:55.279 States American owns. Three people own more than 150 million Americans. 347 00:20:55.339 --> 00:20:58.420 This is what capitalism looks like at this stage. And clearly, 348 00:20:58.460 --> 00:21:00.720 you need to protect it very well because it's very 349 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:02.259 unjust for the majority. 350 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:06.920 So, James, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about 351 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.910 a system that is, you know, look, you mentioned the 30s. 352 00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:13.549 That is the last time, or maybe even prior to 353 00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:16.069 that and more the Gilded Age, when we sort of 354 00:21:16.150 --> 00:21:21.450 lived in that laissez-faire era of robber barons. And I 355 00:21:21.549 --> 00:21:27.250 think the determination there was that society is not stable 356 00:21:27.509 --> 00:21:32.329 at that point. That there is, how do economists get 357 00:21:32.509 --> 00:21:37.730 out of that perspective of focusing on supply and demand 358 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:38.500 and pull. 359 00:21:38.299 --> 00:21:40.549 Back to a more macro of, What. 360 00:21:41.809 --> 00:21:48.789 Is a more stable version of a progressive capitalism look like? 361 00:21:48.869 --> 00:21:52.430 Economists never really think about that, actually, because economists. 362 00:21:52.049 --> 00:21:54.369 Don't see- Wouldn't that be the whole game? 363 00:21:54.390 --> 00:21:58.710 No, but you can't believe it. Economists just see the 364 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:01.920 economy as being this free-floating thing. They don't see it 365 00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:04.700 as being embedded in politics and society. 366 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:06.740 They see it as separate from politics. 367 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:07.559 Yes. 368 00:22:07.740 --> 00:22:10.279 Is it separate? No, absolutely not. But that's the way 369 00:22:10.339 --> 00:22:12.940 economists think about it. If you picked up an economics textbook, 370 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.180 the word politics never appears in it. You know, it's 371 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.789 completely unconnected to the political and social system, which is 372 00:22:19.829 --> 00:22:22.609 obviously ludicrous, you know, but that's how it is. So 373 00:22:22.970 --> 00:22:25.349 very few economists, you'd have to talk to political scientists 374 00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:27.509 if you wanted to think more about the topic that 375 00:22:27.549 --> 00:22:31.230 you're interested in, which was, you know, how the political 376 00:22:31.309 --> 00:22:34.210 system kind of responded to the crisis of capitalism in 377 00:22:34.230 --> 00:22:37.750 the 1930s by trying to ameliorate, you know, some of 378 00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:40.990 the costs and reduce some of the inequalities. And, you know, 379 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:43.750 and that ushered in a period after the Second World 380 00:22:43.769 --> 00:22:48.430 War of terrific prosperity with falling inequality, rising living standards 381 00:22:48.490 --> 00:22:51.450 across the

board. And, you know, that unraveled in the 1970s, 382 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:55.400 in some sense, that consensus unraveled. And then we launched 383 00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:56.700 off in this other direction. 384 00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:01.640 Why did the consensus in the... So we'll take a 385 00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:06.650 step back in history here. I think I understand why 386 00:23:07.769 --> 00:23:11.069 intervening on behalf of workers arose. I think if you 387 00:23:11.089 --> 00:23:15.109 think about World War I, and Claire, you've written about this, 388 00:23:15.990 --> 00:23:19.859 when people saw that in a time of crisis, the 389 00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:26.039 government took over a lot of the so-called laissez-faire functionings 390 00:23:26.259 --> 00:23:30.160 of capitalism, whether it was for making armaments or food 391 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.180 or all that, they saw, oh, wait a second. Our 392 00:23:33.259 --> 00:23:38.819 government does have the ability to step in and change 393 00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:43.220 the dynamics. This isn't a fait accompli. We can actually 394 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:44.299 change this. 395 00:23:45.140 --> 00:23:45.519 I see. 396 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:52.319 Is that where workers started to look at demanding more, Clara, 397 00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:53.960 or a fairer system? 398 00:23:55.309 --> 00:23:57.869 Yes, I would say that before the First World War, 399 00:23:58.009 --> 00:24:02.109 austerity was kind of taken for granted because there was a. 400 00:24:02.109 --> 00:24:05.869 Sense by which- Austerity meaning like poor people, that's fine. 401 00:24:06.069 --> 00:24:07.299 Should I define it very quickly? 402 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:08.539 Please, if you could, yeah. 403 00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:13.299 Sure. So I think, again, there is a mainstream way 404 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:16.539 of understanding austerity, which is all about how the state 405 00:24:16.819 --> 00:24:20.900 is stepping back and kind of there is a cut 406 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:24.640 in public expenditures and an increase in taxes. So this 407 00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:28.420 is the definition. I would say this definition is already 408 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:32.490 kind of blinding us from what really matters. Going back 409 00:24:32.509 --> 00:24:36.069 to the theme, John, that you're bringing up today, which 410 00:24:36.190 --> 00:24:39.410 is the state never really steps back. What happens is 411 00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:43.960 that the state just decides to shift resources from some, 412 00:24:44.059 --> 00:24:47.890 the majority, to the few. And the same for taxation. 413 00:24:47.950 --> 00:24:50.509 It's not about just taxing people more. It's about who 414 00:24:50.549 --> 00:24:52.630 you're taxing more. And what you find out is that 415 00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:55.900 austerity is all about regressive taxation, which means that capital 416 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.160 is taxed structurally less than labor. And this is, of course, 417 00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:04.220 the current policies have just escalated these tendencies. 418 00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:04.900 That's right. 419 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.349 And what is meant by that is sort of if 420 00:25:07.390 --> 00:25:09.650 you've got a capital gain or if you want to 421 00:25:11.109 --> 00:25:16.299 put machinery On your taxes and get those removed from 422 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:18.789 your taxes or things like that, or capital gains taxes 423 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:22.490 or carried interest taxes, that those are eased, but poor 424 00:25:22.529 --> 00:25:26.269 people still face point of sale taxes that are very regressive. 425 00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:28.930 And so they pay a higher percentage. Is that sort 426 00:25:28.990 --> 00:25:30.410 of generally what we're- Definitely. 427 00:25:30.589 --> 00:25:30.839 Okay. 428 00:25:30.910 --> 00:25:34.319 So sale taxes are very aggressive because everyone pays them alike, 429 00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.460 but it gets worse. The income brackets have majorly shrunk 430 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.549 so that the very wealthy pay less and less of 431 00:25:40.609 --> 00:25:46.410 their income in taxes, but really also it's about detaxing 432 00:25:46.589 --> 00:25:52.069 corporate profits. Capital gains, dividends, interest. So people who make 433 00:25:52.109 --> 00:25:56.170 their living off of capital are de-taxed. Not to think 434 00:25:56.230 --> 00:25:59.559 about inheritance tax that basically doesn't exist in this country. 435 00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:01.339 And labor is overly taxed. 436 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:03.819 And labor is overtaxed. So that in the United States, 437 00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:06.210 a lot of people are poor because they're overly taxed. 438 00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:09.210 So this is taxation. Then in terms of how the 439 00:26:09.230 --> 00:26:12.410 state spends... What we see today is exactly what austerity 440 00:26:12.450 --> 00:26:15.549 is about. You take away from social expenditures, and the 441 00:26:15.589 --> 00:26:20.390 big beautiful bill is all about this. Two million people 442 00:26:20.410 --> 00:26:22.539 are going to go hungry because they're going to lose 443 00:26:22.859 --> 00:26:27.220 access to food stamps, and there's over 70 million people 444 00:26:27.259 --> 00:26:34.759 who will lose their health coverage. These cuts in these domains, education, 445 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:39.380 health care, public transport, don't mean that this money is 446 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:41.829 not spent elsewhere. And guess where it is spent? 447 00:26:41.970 --> 00:26:43.390 I'm going to go with bombs. I'm going to go 448 00:26:43.410 --> 00:26:43.849 with bombs. 449 00:26:43.990 --> 00:26:46.049 Exactly. Military industrial complex. 450 00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:47.670 It was bombs. Son of a bitch. 451 00:26:47.869 --> 00:26:51.029 I mean, we're one trillion a year. That is an 452 00:26:51.089 --> 00:26:51.930 insane amount. 453

00:26:52.089 --> 00:26:56.019 And another 150 billion to create a whole new enforcement. 454 00:26:56.059 --> 00:26:56.450 Exactly. 455 00:26:56.690 --> 00:26:57.819 So border patrol. 456 00:26:57.960 --> 00:26:58.279 Yes. 457 00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:01.589 James, let me ask you this. Because so. 458 00:27:02.779 --> 00:27:05.799 How would an economist then who is looking at the evidence, 459 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.460 how do we justify that? Is it purely based on, well, 460 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.049 that's a stronger growth model? 461 00:27:13.369 --> 00:27:14.390 What's the justification? 462 00:27:14.769 --> 00:27:17.170 Could I put this in a little bit of perspective? 463 00:27:17.210 --> 00:27:21.529 What I mostly study is poor countries. I've been working 464 00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:24.839 in Colombia for 33 years. I work in Nigeria. I 465 00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:28.220 work in Democratic Republic of Congo. And I think I'm 466 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.069 not denying anything that Clara says, but I think if 467 00:27:31.089 --> 00:27:34.450 you think about the big picture, You know, the United 468 00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:37.210 States has actually been better at solving those sort of 469 00:27:37.250 --> 00:27:41.130 problems than Nigeria or Colombia or any poor country in 470 00:27:41.150 --> 00:27:43.980 the world has been. Any country in the world has 471 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:46.779 elites that want to rig the game in their favor. 472 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.420 And boy, have they been more successful in Colombia, you know, 473 00:27:50.460 --> 00:27:52.819 than they have in the United States. I think that's 474 00:27:52.859 --> 00:27:56.359 the picture, you know, and in fact, you know. There 475 00:27:56.380 --> 00:27:59.019 are all these problems, I agree. But if you look 476 00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:02.240 at the last 100, 150 years, yeah, you have to fight. 477 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:03.960 You have to fight for your rights. You have to 478 00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:06.359 fight for wages. You have to fight to get the 479 00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:09.160 government to pay attention to you. But that fight has 480 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.779 been much more successful for ordinary people in the United 481 00:28:12.819 --> 00:28:14.400 States than it has in Colombia. 482 00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.980 James, do you think that's because, if we look at 483 00:28:18.009 --> 00:28:22.910 the political systems, that the places that you're talking about 484 00:28:23.509 --> 00:28:27.170 were in some respects... on the receiving end of these 485 00:28:27.390 --> 00:28:32.700 extractive economic policies. You know, you're talking about places that 486 00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:36.900 don't have the benefit of the kind of civic society 487 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:39.339 that grew up because they were on the receiving end 488 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:43.609 of our, whether it be mercantilism or colonialism or those 489 00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:45.509 kinds of things. I don't want to get into, you know, 490 00:28:45.589 --> 00:28:49.990 this idea that like, you know, we drained everybody to 491 00:28:50.029 --> 00:28:54.579 our benefit, but to some extent, doesn't that explain a 492 00:28:54.660 --> 00:29:00.410 little bit of why those countries have been more volatile 493 00:29:00.710 --> 00:29:01.569 in their economic? 494 00:29:02.369 --> 00:29:04.700 Yes, absolutely. I mean, they've been organized for the benefit 495 00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:08.759 of of the elites, you know, I think United States, 496 00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:09.940 United States. 497 00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:12.220 I mean, we were the beneficiaries of a lot of 498 00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:13.039 that organization. 499 00:29:13.829 --> 00:29:18.329 I think the Colombians had more to do with it, honestly. Right. 500 00:29:18.589 --> 00:29:22.470 So, so did that type of system empower those corrupt 501 00:29:22.509 --> 00:29:23.869 elites is I guess my point. 502 00:29:24.190 --> 00:29:25.069 Yes, absolutely. 503 00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:25.329 Yes. 504 00:29:25.390 --> 00:29:29.390 It's reproduced hideous levels of inequality and social exclusion, you know, 505 00:29:29.589 --> 00:29:32.069 and of a sort that you don't see in the 506 00:29:32.109 --> 00:29:34.549 United States, you know, thankfully, but, you know, of course, 507 00:29:35.170 --> 00:29:37.859 you know i'm not denying any of these problems that you're. 508 00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:40.480 Talking no no i understand so james it actually brings 509 00:29:40.539 --> 00:29:44.500 up a great point which is you know maybe the 510 00:29:44.619 --> 00:29:48.000 united states then as an avatar of what a more 511 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:50.519 successful system could look like so let's say we look 512 00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:52.829 at nigeria and colombia and those things and it's much 513 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.730 more volatile and the elites are more corrupt but that 514 00:29:56.829 --> 00:30:02.369 certainly doesn't excuse the united states creating a system as 515 00:30:02.430 --> 00:30:07.750 you said since reagan that increased our inequality to the 516 00:30:07.809 --> 00:30:11.359 extent that it did so what can we let's look 517 00:30:11.410 --> 00:30:14.039 at it as a system that's functioning better than others 518 00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:18.160 what is it that we could do within the uh 519 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.000 the way that we balance capital and labor what could 520 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:27.130 we do differently that would help save us from turning 521 00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:29.339 into those other places Well, I think. 522 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.980 That's about politics. You know, it's about defining a kind 523 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:37.089 of agenda, a practical agenda of taxing, you know, extreme 524 00:30:37.150 --> 00:30:39.970 levels of wealth inequality. And I think looking at the 525 00:30:40.029 --> 00:30:43.130 history and showing you can

combine, you know, a much 526 00:30:43.190 --> 00:30:46.569 more equal society with very rapid rates of economic growth, 527 00:30:46.670 --> 00:30:50.630 with successful capitalism, with innovation. That's exactly what happened in 528 00:30:50.650 --> 00:30:51.609 the post-war period. 529 00:30:52.250 --> 00:30:54.130 And so why did that fall apart, Clara? 530 00:30:55.410 --> 00:30:57.460 I don't think this ever happened. We have a very 531 00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:02.200 different reading of reality here, I think. The point is 532 00:31:02.259 --> 00:31:05.740 that I really do think we need to understand what 533 00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:09.680 are some key feature of our economic system, which is capitalism. 534 00:31:10.230 --> 00:31:13.190 And we can't just reduce it all. Yes, everywhere. It's 535 00:31:13.349 --> 00:31:17.009 global capitalism. And we can't reduce it again all to, oh, 536 00:31:17.170 --> 00:31:20.589 they're elite who are corrupt. That is not how it operates. 537 00:31:20.990 --> 00:31:24.119 And it's really important to notice that the global South 538 00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:28.119 has been structurally dependent on the global north so that 539 00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:31.980 really you would not have development without the active creation 540 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.299 of poverty. So again, this is also a very different 541 00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:38.109 reading of development. And I know James has a different reading. 542 00:31:38.450 --> 00:31:41.509 Dependency theory tells you that the global south is poor 543 00:31:41.609 --> 00:31:44.549 because the global north is rich. So the fact that 544 00:31:44.569 --> 00:31:48.099 the global south is hit stronger by austerity, the IMF 545 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.099 has been imposing austerity measures in the global south for 546 00:31:52.150 --> 00:31:54.799 much longer than the neoliberal period. So this is, for me, 547 00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:57.039 very important. We should stop just thinking that the problem 548 00:31:57.099 --> 00:32:02.200 is neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is an escalation of certain key feature 549 00:32:02.299 --> 00:32:04.619 of our system that we need to understand. And I'm sorry, 550 00:32:04.660 --> 00:32:08.809 the United States is a very terrible dehumanizing model that 551 00:32:08.950 --> 00:32:14.109 nobody should follow. Half of the American population homeless people work, okay? 552 00:32:14.369 --> 00:32:18.470 People are homeless because they can't afford a house because 553 00:32:18.730 --> 00:32:22.089 their wages are too low or their work is too precarious. 554 00:32:22.430 --> 00:32:26.500 We have one out of six children in dire poverty 555 00:32:26.619 --> 00:32:29.079 in the United States. And these numbers keep going up, 556 00:32:29.220 --> 00:32:31.180 by the way, okay? The fact that actually under the 557 00:32:31.220 --> 00:32:36.119 Biden administration, The child credits have been taken away. This 558 00:32:36.299 --> 00:32:40.160 actually doubled the number of children in poverty. In New York, 559 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.079 the richest city in the world, we have one out 560 00:32:44.099 --> 00:32:48.819 of eight children in poverty. public education that experience homelessness. 561 00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:52.200 This is not a healthy society. This is a society 562 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:55.329 that has issues and we need to understand it's long history. 563 00:32:55.369 --> 00:32:57.730 I'm actually working on the golden age. It was not 564 00:32:57.829 --> 00:33:00.630 as golden as people like to depict it. It's easy 565 00:33:00.670 --> 00:33:03.150 to say, look, our system is eternally flexible. We can 566 00:33:03.170 --> 00:33:05.950 have humane capitalism. But if we really want to be 567 00:33:06.009 --> 00:33:09.500 honest historically, This is a lie. And this is why 568 00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:13.579 we need to figure out the real reason why austerity operates. 569 00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:17.910 And it's not just Trump. Trump is ultimately the very 570 00:33:18.549 --> 00:33:21.769 obvious face of the violence of our economy that we 571 00:33:21.849 --> 00:33:25.869 need right now to take courageously because with the genocide happening, 572 00:33:26.190 --> 00:33:29.910 with the climate collapse, with future generations having no future, 573 00:33:29.950 --> 00:33:33.230 we have no time to keep excusing our system as 574 00:33:33.339 --> 00:33:36.960 possible of renovation. It really needs to have more courageous. 575 00:33:37.019 --> 00:33:38.940 And last thing I want to say is in Tulsa, 576 00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:42.380 for example, we are trying to do something different with FREE, 577 00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:45.589 the Forum for Real Economic Emancipation. The idea is to 578 00:33:45.609 --> 00:33:49.630 bring people back in the picture in thinking about the economy. 579 00:33:49.950 --> 00:33:53.410 I agree. Mainstream economics is all about excluding people from 580 00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:56.319 economic topics so that we feel we're too stupid to even... 581 00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:00.660 to even care because we can't understand. This is already 582 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.440 part of the problem. We need to participate in realizing 583 00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:07.160 that economics in the real sense is not neoclassical economics. 584 00:34:07.220 --> 00:34:10.500 That's an excuse. It's all about actually connecting the theory 585 00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:12.739 with the social struggles. And this is what we're trying 586 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:14.289 to do in Tulsa, and we hope we can do 587 00:34:14.329 --> 00:34:15.630 this elsewhere as well. 588 00:34:21.690 --> 00:34:23.469 Folks, you've heard me talk about this before, and I'm 589 00:34:23.489 --> 00:34:24.789 going to talk about it again, and I'm not going 590 00:34:24.809 --> 00:34:25.690 to stop talking about it. 591 00:34:26.269 --> 00:34:29.269 Until you people get on this damn thing.

Ground News. 592 00:34:30.030 --> 00:34:33.070 It's a website. It's an app. It's a website and 593 00:34:33.110 --> 00:34:34.210 an app. It's on a mission. 594 00:34:34.789 --> 00:34:36.880 It's going to give readers an easier, more data-driven way 595 00:34:36.889 --> 00:34:39.320 to read the news. I don't understand why they didn't 596 00:34:39.380 --> 00:34:45.260 do this before. They prioritize critical thinking, media literacy. Everything 597 00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:47.940 they offer is all related back to those two ideas. 598 00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:50.599 Every day, they're pulling thousands of news articles from around 599 00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.659 the world. They organize them by story. Each story comes 600 00:34:53.699 --> 00:34:55.719 with visual breakdowns of the political bias. 601 00:34:56.570 --> 00:35:01.750 Ownership, and headlines. Oh, relevant to today? You bet your ass. 602 00:35:02.570 --> 00:35:05.110 It helps you better understand why you're seeing what you're 603 00:35:05.170 --> 00:35:08.159 seeing and who's behind it. Ground News is a response 604 00:35:08.429 --> 00:35:12.800 to that fear-anger-based media. They don't dictate how readers should 605 00:35:12.820 --> 00:35:16.559 think or feel. They aggregate and they organize the information 606 00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:21.019 and they help readers make their own informed decisions. Ground 607 00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:22.420 News can help you sort through the noise and get 608 00:35:22.460 --> 00:35:25.460 to the heart of the news. Go to groundnews.com slash 609 00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:30.809 stewart Subscribe for 40% off the unlimited access Vantage subscription. 610 00:35:31.190 --> 00:35:36.300 Brings the price down to like $ 5 a month. That's ground.news.com. 611 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:46.639 I find what Clara is saying very compelling. You know, 612 00:35:46.820 --> 00:35:50.449 it's very difficult for me to look at the inequalities 613 00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:53.869 that she just sketched out, which is, you know, the 614 00:35:53.909 --> 00:35:57.809 problem in this country is not the able-bodied young men 615 00:35:58.150 --> 00:36:01.309 that don't work, but somehow have access to health insurance 616 00:36:01.849 --> 00:36:05.429 as the reason why, you know, our country is falling apart. 617 00:36:05.949 --> 00:36:08.809 It's this idea that you can work your ass off 618 00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:12.050 and still need food support. Look, we've got a food 619 00:36:12.090 --> 00:36:17.500 bank here locally. You cannot believe the business that it 620 00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:20.860 is doing in the richest country in the world. So 621 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:26.880 my position is always America doesn't have a wealth growth 622 00:36:27.019 --> 00:36:31.739 production problem, it has a distribution problem that the people 623 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:37.389 who create that wealth do not benefit commensurately in the 624 00:36:37.469 --> 00:36:41.650 way that they should. It's not about entitlement. It's about 625 00:36:42.329 --> 00:36:47.449 investment and distribution. James, does that resonate with you at all? 626 00:36:47.969 --> 00:36:48.250 Yeah. 627 00:36:48.309 --> 00:36:51.329 I mean, you know, I could, you know, I think 628 00:36:51.349 --> 00:36:54.530 this argument about why poor countries are poor, why Colombia 629 00:36:54.550 --> 00:36:57.599 is poor, is completely misconceived. And it's nothing to do 630 00:36:57.619 --> 00:37:00.659 with the International Embroidery Fund or the United States or 631 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:04.789 the United Fruit Company. Let me talk about what you're saying. 632 00:37:04.929 --> 00:37:07.949 I agree there is a distributional problem. I mean, why 633 00:37:08.050 --> 00:37:09.530 is that? You know, I think if you thought about 634 00:37:09.550 --> 00:37:11.809 the history of the United States, there's such a history 635 00:37:11.849 --> 00:37:14.289 of kind of marginalization. If you think about the way 636 00:37:14.369 --> 00:37:18.750 black people were treated, discriminated against, kept on the side, 637 00:37:18.869 --> 00:37:23.659 wages repressed, politically excluded until the 1960s. But there's also 638 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:25.980 this just this kind of culture in the United States, 639 00:37:26.019 --> 00:37:28.719 you know, of kind of self-reliance, of I mean, I 640 00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:31.039 would say it goes back into the 19th century. There's 641 00:37:31.059 --> 00:37:33.960 actually a lot of evidence on this about linking the 642 00:37:33.980 --> 00:37:37.400 kind of regional cultures within the United States towards attitudes, 643 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.909 towards redistribution. And there's just this idea that you have 644 00:37:40.929 --> 00:37:42.809 to make it on your own in the United States 645 00:37:42.849 --> 00:37:45.090 and you don't want handouts and things like that. And 646 00:37:45.130 --> 00:37:48.750 that creates all sorts of problems. So I agree with 647 00:37:48.789 --> 00:37:50.289 you that there is a distributional problem. 648 00:37:50.489 --> 00:37:54.139 And it is an idea that somehow, if you are poor, 649 00:37:54.500 --> 00:37:57.730 that is a function of vice. And then if you 650 00:37:57.809 --> 00:38:01.590 are rich, it is a function of virtue. But I 651 00:38:01.630 --> 00:38:04.050 think to Clara's point that I wanted to get to 652 00:38:04.130 --> 00:38:13.280 is that, does our system require a permanent underclass? Is 653 00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:17.440 that baked into what we're doing? And how could we, 654 00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:20.320 you know, when you talk about distribution, as someone who 655 00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:25.610 studies the mechanisms, how can we alleviate that? Forget about, 656 00:38:25.730 --> 00:38:29.409 let's remove politics from it. So we're going to operate 657 00:38:29.449 --> 00:38:32.190 in a space where it's not about what we can 658 00:38:32.230 --> 00:38:36.269 get through a Republican

Congress, because I think if we 659 00:38:36.309 --> 00:38:38.710 stick to that, we're never going to think about anything. 660 00:38:39.340 --> 00:38:44.760 So thinking about it on a more idealized plane, what 661 00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:49.119 would you say, if we have a distribution problem, what 662 00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:53.639 are the mechanisms that we might choose that could help 663 00:38:53.699 --> 00:38:55.659 alleviate that issue? 664 00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:58.989 I mean, I think that's about labor market institutions. It's 665 00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:02.889 about strengthening trade unions and the bargaining power of workers. 666 00:39:03.090 --> 00:39:05.469 And I think if you look at countries that have 667 00:39:05.530 --> 00:39:10.789 successfully developed with much more equal distribution of resources, that's 668 00:39:10.889 --> 00:39:11.510 the key to that. 669 00:39:11.929 --> 00:39:14.269 But why is it on? I always wonder why it's on. 670 00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:18.099 So let's take corporate boards for an example. And I'm 671 00:39:18.139 --> 00:39:21.019 talking about larger corporations, obviously not the small businesses or 672 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:24.219 consumer spending or anything like that. When you look at 673 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:28.039 how Corporate boards distribute profit. 674 00:39:28.769 --> 00:39:29.809 They do buybacks. 675 00:39:30.139 --> 00:39:33.940 They do profit sharing, they find ways to carve up 676 00:39:34.099 --> 00:39:37.340 whatever that profit is so that everybody gets a slice 677 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:43.389 of that pie. Workers can only benefit through wages. Every 678 00:39:43.449 --> 00:39:45.650 now and again, they'll get shares in a company or 679 00:39:45.690 --> 00:39:50.670 they'll get certain things. Why is it that For workers, 680 00:39:50.889 --> 00:39:54.750 it's required that it's incumbent upon themselves to create a 681 00:39:54.829 --> 00:39:59.909 movement to then go into the, why isn't it the 682 00:39:59.969 --> 00:40:04.170 status quo that they sit on those boards and that 683 00:40:04.210 --> 00:40:07.929 they share in the same way that somebody who's on 684 00:40:07.969 --> 00:40:10.969 the board would share or somebody who's a stockholder? Why 685 00:40:10.989 --> 00:40:14.679 do we have stockholder and shareholder capitalism, but not, why 686 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:16.280 aren't the workers included in that? 687 00:40:16.340 --> 00:40:16.820 Do you know? 688 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:16.909 No. 689 00:40:17.769 --> 00:40:19.969 That's the way the law is organized. That's the way 690 00:40:20.050 --> 00:40:24.909 corporate law is organized. If you incorporate– you start a business. 691 00:40:25.190 --> 00:40:28.010 That's about the legal system in some sense. And you 692 00:40:28.050 --> 00:40:30.750 could say, well, where did the legal system come from? Well, 693 00:40:30.769 --> 00:40:34.059 the legal system was written by economic elites or people 694 00:40:34.139 --> 00:40:36.039 who could influence policymakers. 695 00:40:36.260 --> 00:40:40.039 So that can be changed and it wouldn't be disastrous. 696 00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:42.659 Clara is about to jump out of her library. So 697 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:46.440 I'm going to– She's, she's about to pull hair and 698 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:47.619 books off and do that. 699 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:49.059 Claire, do you want to answer that? 700 00:40:50.139 --> 00:40:53.550 Um, I just want to say that the legal system 701 00:40:53.809 --> 00:40:57.969 is not separable from the political economy we're discussing. 702 00:40:58.030 --> 00:40:58.190 Right. 703 00:40:58.230 --> 00:41:00.010 And so I think this is really the difference in 704 00:41:00.070 --> 00:41:02.469 method here is that I'm trying to say that actually 705 00:41:02.510 --> 00:41:07.969 capitalism is an animal that has all of these elements 706 00:41:08.030 --> 00:41:11.590 to it. The political, the legal, they're part of the economic. 707 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.469 And to understand the economic, you can't separate, right? So 708 00:41:14.489 --> 00:41:17.309 this separation is already, for me, very ideological because it 709 00:41:17.349 --> 00:41:19.710 tends to say, okay, so the problem is not the economy. 710 00:41:19.750 --> 00:41:21.489 It's the problem is the law. The problem is this 711 00:41:21.550 --> 00:41:23.489 other thing. Well, the point is that, you. 712 00:41:23.449 --> 00:41:25.869 Know, the laws- They work together to suppress. 713 00:41:25.909 --> 00:41:28.920 Of course. And historically, you know, how did capitalism come 714 00:41:28.940 --> 00:41:33.199 into being? With the enclosure of the commons, right? And 715 00:41:33.260 --> 00:41:36.340 the enclosure in the commons is all about taking away 716 00:41:36.460 --> 00:41:41.219 subsistence means of people, right? And transforming land into a 717 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.530 commodity that then was appropriated by the elite. Right. So 718 00:41:44.820 --> 00:41:47.829 in the way without the law, this first step that 719 00:41:47.849 --> 00:41:49.969 you're talking about, which is the fact that very few 720 00:41:50.030 --> 00:41:52.730 control the means of production and actually get to make 721 00:41:52.769 --> 00:41:57.530 decisions about how something is produced and how it's distributed. 722 00:41:58.489 --> 00:42:02.699 this requires a certain legal backing, right? There would be 723 00:42:03.159 --> 00:42:06.059 no capitalism without a specific law. Again, the law comes 724 00:42:06.099 --> 00:42:07.760 from the state. And we go back to the point 725 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:10.940 of saying the state is constantly intervening to protect the market. 726 00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:15.000 So also one other point is, of course, that that's 727 00:42:15.019 --> 00:42:17.679 what we mean by exploitation is the fact that exploitation 728 00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:20.460 is not just about having a very low wage. You 729

00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:23.730 are exploited also when you don't have a say on 730 00:42:23.829 --> 00:42:28.070 what you are working for. software engineers right now working 731 00:42:28.090 --> 00:42:30.940 for Microsoft and Google and knowing that what they're doing 732 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:34.880 is going to basically boost the AI that is killing 733 00:42:34.900 --> 00:42:39.079 the Palestinians and ludicrous profits. We know Francesca Albanese just 734 00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:42.480 released a very powerful report about all of the corporate 735 00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:46.019 gains off of what is happening right now in Gaza. Well, 736 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:49.449 this Microsoft engineer has very little choice but either to 737 00:42:49.510 --> 00:42:52.840 fire himself or or to get fired because if he 738 00:42:53.010 --> 00:42:55.119 goes to work, that's what he's gonna have to work. 739 00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:56.969 This is what he has to work for, right? 740 00:42:57.349 --> 00:42:58.809 But I think if you were to, I mean, if 741 00:42:58.849 --> 00:43:04.349 you were to look at, and I absolutely understand where 742 00:43:04.369 --> 00:43:06.170 you're going there, but if you were to look at 743 00:43:06.269 --> 00:43:09.969 what people work on and everybody had to look at 744 00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:12.989 the downstream effects of what they work on and whether 745 00:43:13.030 --> 00:43:17.110 or not it would be destructive or not, very few 746 00:43:17.150 --> 00:43:20.199 people would work. So much of, I mean, Anybody that 747 00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:24.289 makes anything would find themselves downstream of progress. 748 00:43:23.949 --> 00:43:24.829 Or human thing. Yes. 749 00:43:25.150 --> 00:43:30.090 I think while I definitely appreciate all the aspects that 750 00:43:30.110 --> 00:43:34.230 you're saying, my question is the system that maybe you 751 00:43:34.269 --> 00:43:36.650 might be advocating for, and I don't want to put 752 00:43:36.690 --> 00:43:39.530 words in your mouth, but I haven't seen the success 753 00:43:39.590 --> 00:43:44.090 of purely socialist where workers have, is there a system 754 00:43:44.139 --> 00:43:50.110 where you can protect private property and individual rights? but 755 00:43:50.230 --> 00:43:55.429 still create an engine of progress that brings people the 756 00:43:55.489 --> 00:43:58.650 more modern types of conveniences, or is that pie in 757 00:43:58.670 --> 00:44:03.269 the sky? But I get uncomfortable when I start getting into, 758 00:44:04.690 --> 00:44:10.849 so there's nothing within the system that can be salvaged 759 00:44:11.510 --> 00:44:16.309 other than a worker's utopia, which I have not seen 760 00:44:16.389 --> 00:44:18.159 work anywhere. 761 00:44:19.190 --> 00:44:21.570 Well, I think it's also interesting to note that capitalism 762 00:44:21.630 --> 00:44:25.329 is very young. So it's only 0.1%. No, this is 763 00:44:25.349 --> 00:44:25.809 really important. 764 00:44:25.829 --> 00:44:27.239 It's just a boy. 765 00:44:27.530 --> 00:44:31.699 It's really, it's only 0.1% of the time humans as 766 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:34.179 homo sapiens has been on earth that we are under. 767 00:44:34.219 --> 00:44:35.519 But the other systems have been. 768 00:44:35.969 --> 00:44:39.969 Feudal systems and empire, like they've been pretty shitty. 769 00:44:40.130 --> 00:44:44.800 But also a lot of, for example, native, native horizontal relations. Right. 770 00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:48.760 So it's not necessarily that you need to organize production vertically. 771 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:51.119 And this doesn't mean, by the way, again, I think 772 00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:54.239 we use the word socialism and everyone gets scared. Because, 773 00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:57.219 of course, it's used, especially in the United States, as 774 00:44:57.300 --> 00:45:00.190 something that is considered taboo even to talk about. But 775 00:45:00.230 --> 00:45:02.769 we can even use, we can get creative of how 776 00:45:02.809 --> 00:45:04.449 we want to talk about it. But the point is 777 00:45:04.489 --> 00:45:08.230 that we need democracy in the workplace. And cooperatives, for example, 778 00:45:09.090 --> 00:45:12.559 are this democratic space. And it's not easy, of course, 779 00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:16.400 because actually to organize production democratically requires a lot of work. 780 00:45:16.699 --> 00:45:16.920 Sure. 781 00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.300 And I don't know that they have the scale or 782 00:45:19.340 --> 00:45:25.050 the ease. I understand it. But And James, maybe you 783 00:45:25.110 --> 00:45:29.590 can speak to, because I think, you know, while I 784 00:45:29.670 --> 00:45:32.469 probably lean towards Clara in a lot of these spaces, 785 00:45:34.010 --> 00:45:38.679 going back to like cooperatives feels like at scale with 786 00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:41.199 the amount of people we have in this world and 787 00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:45.360 the way that people, human behavior feels like. 788 00:45:46.780 --> 00:45:50.380 It's artisanal and not practical. But James, I'll ask you that. 789 00:45:51.099 --> 00:45:53.679 Yeah, I mean, I think a bit of utopianism is 790 00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:56.659 a good thing. I think in the United States, you 791 00:45:56.900 --> 00:45:59.679 need ideas, you need creativity, you need to figure out 792 00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:02.800 how to create a kind of coalition, a political coalition 793 00:46:03.219 --> 00:46:06.559 to put the society on a different track. But I 794 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.539 do think, as you say, John, that if you look 795 00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:13.679 at these experiences of successful economic development, look at what's 796 00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:16.500 happened in South Korea in the last 50 years. South 797 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:21.070 Korea went from a poor to an incredibly interesting, exciting, 798 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:24.389 and I don't just mean economically, I

mean, culturally, I mean, K-pop, 799 00:46:24.530 --> 00:46:27.619 Gangnam style, you know, you name it, you know, and 800 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:30.059 what was that? You know, it was capitalism, basically. It 801 00:46:30.099 --> 00:46:32.780 was Hyundai, it was Daewoo, it was Samsung. It was 802 00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:35.940 just an amazing amount of innovation and creativity. You know, 803 00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.659 what took tens of millions of Chinese people out of 804 00:46:39.699 --> 00:46:43.969 poverty since 1978? The Communist Party giving up trying to 805 00:46:44.010 --> 00:46:47.719 control every little bit of people's lives and just allowing 806 00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:50.599 people to do their thing, you know. And so could 807 00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:54.360 I imagine another world? And should we? Yes, absolutely. We should. 808 00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:57.239 But I think like economists would be sort of practical 809 00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:59.619 in the way I'm suggesting and say, OK, let's just 810 00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:00.659 look at these places. 811 00:47:01.030 --> 00:47:01.289 All right. 812 00:47:01.329 --> 00:47:05.389 So let's let's try. So this maybe coalesces this for me. 813 00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:07.510 And I'm going to throw this out there and you 814 00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:08.909 guys can both yell at me about this. 815 00:47:10.309 --> 00:47:11.690 The way I view it is. 816 00:47:12.659 --> 00:47:18.300 Capitalism is the operating system that we have chosen to 817 00:47:19.159 --> 00:47:24.469 create innovation and progress in this country. But inevitably, it 818 00:47:24.550 --> 00:47:29.369 is a destructive operating system that it is almost by definition, 819 00:47:29.409 --> 00:47:34.449 as Clara said, exploitative. So my what I'm saying is 820 00:47:34.489 --> 00:47:39.409 I think Clara is right. far more creative and innovative 821 00:47:39.429 --> 00:47:42.409 in the way that she's thinking about. We can reorganize 822 00:47:42.449 --> 00:47:47.150 this in a very different way through a more cooperative, democratic, 823 00:47:47.510 --> 00:47:52.969 worker-based system. I guess I still look at it, and 824 00:47:53.010 --> 00:47:57.769 maybe this is, again, it's sclerotic thinking, but I look 825 00:47:57.789 --> 00:48:03.929 at it as government's job is to ameliorate and mitigate 826 00:48:04.610 --> 00:48:11.909 the natural tendencies of capital as destructive how can government 827 00:48:14.010 --> 00:48:18.989 channel the good things of innovation and production while mitigating 828 00:48:19.409 --> 00:48:24.349 the disastrous effects of the poverty that it creates the 829 00:48:24.550 --> 00:48:27.670 inequality that it creates and all those other things so 830 00:48:27.730 --> 00:48:31.949 that's does that resonate at all with you Clara and 831 00:48:31.989 --> 00:48:33.349 James and I'll ask Clara first. 832 00:48:33.190 --> 00:48:36.030 And then James Yeah, I mean, we are in an 833 00:48:36.170 --> 00:48:39.829 economy in which half of the world population is in poverty. 834 00:48:39.869 --> 00:48:42.139 So it's very important to understand this. 835 00:48:41.820 --> 00:48:44.079 Is not exactly a success story. I'm talking more about 836 00:48:44.179 --> 00:48:47.039 the United States. And I think I'm not talking about. 837 00:48:47.059 --> 00:48:48.920 And in the United States, we have 11% of the 838 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.139 population in poverty. So again, it's not a success story. 839 00:48:51.179 --> 00:48:54.340 So we do need to think creatively. I absolutely think so. 840 00:48:54.940 --> 00:48:58.059 And two points is that I think the issue here 841 00:48:58.099 --> 00:49:00.860 is also that it's not just about private investment. It's 842 00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:04.380 also that private investment follows the logic of profit. And again, 843 00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:08.519 it's not just about individuals, it's that everyone is, even 844 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:13.550 the businesses are stuck in what political economy calls real competition. 845 00:49:13.929 --> 00:49:17.190 In the sense that if they don't exploit more, they 846 00:49:17.269 --> 00:49:20.400 don't survive and they get eaten up by bigger fishes. 847 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:22.119 Right. They're just chasing growth. 848 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:22.519 Exactly. 849 00:49:22.539 --> 00:49:25.219 But I'm asking, so what is a government role when 850 00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:28.280 you talk about 11% poverty, which for us is actually 851 00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:30.809 probably better than I thought it was, to be perfectly honest. 852 00:49:31.150 --> 00:49:35.949 But so what does a government, what does a distribution 853 00:49:36.010 --> 00:49:38.239 system and a government look like that is helping to 854 00:49:38.420 --> 00:49:41.760 mitigate those issues without creating more poverty. 855 00:49:42.260 --> 00:49:45.099 Right, exactly. Because the thing I just wanted to say 856 00:49:45.139 --> 00:49:47.739 was that this progress that you talked about is ultimately 857 00:49:48.030 --> 00:49:51.030 the result of this technological innovation that needs to happen 858 00:49:51.070 --> 00:49:54.550 because otherwise people get kicked out of the game. So 859 00:49:54.570 --> 00:49:56.010 that's also important to keep in mind. It's not like, 860 00:49:56.269 --> 00:49:59.110 The progress is not the goal in itself. The goal 861 00:49:59.150 --> 00:50:03.289 is profit. Progress is the outcome of competition, if we 862 00:50:03.329 --> 00:50:05.340 want to call it progress. So going to your question, 863 00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:12.360 I do think that governments don't operate as technocratic kind 864 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:18.059 of do-gooders. We need to pressure from below. And this 865 00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:20.900 is the whole conversation also that we're having with the 866 00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:24.679 free market. free form for real economic emancipation is to 867 00:50:24.719

--> 00:50:28.199 say the only way in which governments will change how 868 00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:32.039 they operate, not through austerity, right? Because we're just saying 869 00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:35.889 how governments are ultimately imposing austerity. I remember your first 870 00:50:35.929 --> 00:50:39.050 words in this conversation all about how it's normal to 871 00:50:39.110 --> 00:50:43.219 think that anything in favor of labor is is considered bad. 872 00:50:43.380 --> 00:50:47.059 Anything that is ultimately about de-risking, subsidizing private shareholders, that's 873 00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:49.780 just the norm. So this is the norm. So austerity 874 00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:52.099 is the norm. So how do we do not austerity 875 00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:56.119 under capitalism? I would say it's a tricky political balance 876 00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:58.420 because again, I think the tendency for the system is 877 00:50:58.460 --> 00:51:02.079 to go there exactly because you need to increase market dependence. 878 00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:03.889 And this is a very important point that I did 879 00:51:03.929 --> 00:51:06.630 not make. is that how do you keep people under 880 00:51:07.030 --> 00:51:11.889 conditions of wage labor? You have to increase market dependence, 881 00:51:12.150 --> 00:51:14.570 which means that in order to survive, you have to 882 00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:19.300 buy your own health insurance, buy your food, pay your rent, 883 00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:22.380 so that people become more precarious and more vulnerable. So 884 00:51:22.420 --> 00:51:25.630 in this case, What happens if the only thing, I 885 00:51:25.690 --> 00:51:28.869 think the only possibility here is for people to actually 886 00:51:28.949 --> 00:51:31.780 gain an awareness of how the system operates, to stop just, 887 00:51:32.019 --> 00:51:34.679 you know, blaming the one person in government and realize 888 00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.699 that it's a bigger issue. There's a bigger tendency on 889 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:41.300 their system. And thus, in a way, cultivate their critical consciousness, 890 00:51:41.320 --> 00:51:42.980 what we're trying to do with free. And by the way, 891 00:51:43.019 --> 00:51:45.590 what we have is also available online. So anyone can follow. 892 00:51:46.170 --> 00:51:49.710 If this consciousness is cultivated, this is when we can 893 00:51:49.750 --> 00:51:53.050 start putting pressure on our governments. Governments will not act 894 00:51:53.090 --> 00:51:55.030 without the pressure. So you can start pressuring at the 895 00:51:55.070 --> 00:52:00.119 local level to increase access to basically what breaches the 896 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.219 market dependence. This is what I think is important is 897 00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:04.039 that the only way in which workers will gain back 898 00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:07.170 some power is if they're able to create spaces in 899 00:52:07.190 --> 00:52:10.530 which they can breach

market dependence and have more sustainable. 900 00:52:10.550 --> 00:52:14.889 So basically, anti-austerity operations is what can create more democratic space. 901 00:52:20.949 --> 00:52:23.849 Folks, you know, this company, it meant mobile. I don't 902 00:52:23.869 --> 00:52:26.289 want to keep you in suspense in any of these things. 903 00:52:26.570 --> 00:52:31.130 They got themselves maybe the ad spokesman of the century, 904 00:52:31.449 --> 00:52:34.590 Ryan Reynolds. But apparently, they need a little extra push. 905 00:52:35.889 --> 00:52:38.579 And they're bringing in, I guess, you know, it's like anything. 906 00:52:38.599 --> 00:52:41.340 You got to sub in. One guy can't do all 907 00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:44.440 of it. So you bring in a couple of scrubs, 908 00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:46.780 see if they can push a few more over the 909 00:52:46.820 --> 00:52:50.210 finish line. And that's what this is. That's me for 910 00:52:50.429 --> 00:52:54.050 Mint Mobile. But the pitch basically essentially stays the same. 911 00:52:54.949 --> 00:52:57.150 You got overpriced phone bills and you can lose them 912 00:52:57.170 --> 00:53:00.219 by switching to Mint Mobile. You know, the fucking thing's 913 00:53:00.219 --> 00:53:01.000 15 bucks a month. 914 00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:03.179 What are you. 915 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:04.920 Looking for better? What are you thinking? You're going to 916 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:08.780 grab one for nine. It's 15 bucks a month. High 917 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:13.079 speed data, unlimited talk and text, largest 5g network in 918 00:53:13.099 --> 00:53:15.889 the nation to get your new wireless plan for just 919 00:53:15.889 --> 00:53:19.230 15 bucks a month. Go to mint mobile.com slash TWS. 920 00:53:19.489 --> 00:53:23.489 That's mint mobile.com slash TWS. Cut your wireless bill to 921 00:53:23.489 --> 00:53:28.070 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com slash TWS. 922 00:53:28.170 --> 00:53:29.610 That's it. There's no catch. 923 00:53:30.590 --> 00:53:33.860 Upfront payments of $ 45 for three months, $ 90 for six months, 924 00:53:34.050 --> 00:53:38.000 or $ 180 for 12 months. Plan required. $ 15 per month equivalent. 925 00:53:38.300 --> 00:53:41.159 Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 926 00:53:41.159 --> 00:53:44.099 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Includes up 927 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:48.639 to 20 gigabyte hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and 928 00:53:48.699 --> 00:53:54.150 coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. I really hope they speed that up. 929 00:53:59.579 --> 00:54:01.159 James, you talked about that a little bit. 930 00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:03.820 You know, what Clara is talking about is sort of 931 00:54:04.340 --> 00:54:08.690 if people feel like the floor is stronger, they have 932 00:54:09.230 --> 00:54:12.449 more autonomy. Oddly enough, it's almost, you know, when you 933 00:54:12.469 --> 00:54:15.309 think about the libertarian perspective, which is we should do 934 00:54:15.389 --> 00:54:18.329 what's the most for individual freedom, it seems to me 935 00:54:19.590 --> 00:54:22.610 in some ways that's compatible with a more libertarian view, 936 00:54:22.650 --> 00:54:28.239 which is if you build a stronger floor, people have 937 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:30.909 more liberty. In other words, you don't have to stay 938 00:54:30.949 --> 00:54:34.190 in a job because that's your healthcare. You don't have 939 00:54:34.210 --> 00:54:38.360 to stay in a job because it's a company town 940 00:54:38.389 --> 00:54:39.280 and you've got to do the thing. 941 00:54:40.420 --> 00:54:44.440 Is a stronger floor part of more liberty, James? 942 00:54:45.369 --> 00:54:48.449 Well, liberty is a kind of complicated word. 943 00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:50.860 Always. 944 00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:53.139 I try not to use the word liberty because in 945 00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:55.400 the United States, if you use the word liberty, people 946 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:59.659 think you're a kind of conservative nut. In England, they 947 00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:03.329 wouldn't think that. I think the image that you lay out, John, 948 00:55:03.409 --> 00:55:06.440 is exactly the right one. A famous account of the 949 00:55:06.500 --> 00:55:09.599 rise of the modern state is that the modern state 950 00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:13.179 kind of exactly arose because of capitalism. You know, capitalism 951 00:55:13.300 --> 00:55:16.880 freed people from social structures. It freed people from kinship. 952 00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:21.219 It set people loose, you know, and that was fantastic 953 00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:24.949 at some level, you know, for innovation and individualism and 954 00:55:24.989 --> 00:55:28.869 all sorts of things, but it created all these massive consequences, 955 00:55:28.889 --> 00:55:31.340 these negative consequences, poverty, you know. 956 00:55:31.539 --> 00:55:34.480 Which we don't reckon with for some. 957 00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:36.659 Government had to come to make that stable. You know, 958 00:55:36.699 --> 00:55:38.960 this is the vision of kind of Carl Polanyi's book, 959 00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:41.019 great transformation. So I think you said that, and I 960 00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.820 think that's, that's sort of right, but it's an endless battle. 961 00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:46.039 You know, it's an endless battle to keep that on track, 962 00:55:46.099 --> 00:55:49.510 you know, because, because, because everyone wants to kind of 963 00:55:49.590 --> 00:55:51.690 shade a bit, you know, everyone wants to play the 964 00:55:51.730 --> 00:55:55.050 game a bit in their favor and stack the rules 965 00:55:55.090 --> 00:55:57.760 a bit in their favor and, and, get the government 966 00:55:57.820 --> 00:56:00.739 not really doing that because, yeah, that keeps wages low 967 00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:03.460 or it allows us to kind of make more profits. 968 00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:09.280 So I

think that's a never-ending struggle, that kind of 969 00:56:09.340 --> 00:56:13.550 dialectical contest in some sense between people to get the 970 00:56:13.590 --> 00:56:16.489 state to control capitalism. But I guess my view of 971 00:56:16.510 --> 00:56:19.949 capitalism Capitalism is different from Clara's, though, because I think 972 00:56:20.269 --> 00:56:23.409 you might disagree with Elon Musk and Peter Thiel's vision 973 00:56:23.429 --> 00:56:25.130 of progress. I certainly do. 974 00:56:25.780 --> 00:56:27.780 I believe humanity should still have a role. 975 00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:34.000 But they definitely have one. Progress for one person. What 976 00:56:34.059 --> 00:56:36.840 was it that drove him to take over this whole doge? 977 00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:40.559 He was not trying to make money. He actually lost 978 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:43.050 enormous amounts of money. He was doing it because he's 979 00:56:43.090 --> 00:56:47.590 a libertarian, because he's ideologically driven to kind of oppose 980 00:56:47.750 --> 00:56:49.769 anything the government does, I think. Right. 981 00:56:50.289 --> 00:56:52.230 And it's such a strange, I guess that gets back 982 00:56:52.269 --> 00:56:55.510 to kind of the original contradiction and everything that we 983 00:56:55.550 --> 00:56:59.769 talk about is you have these folks who are anti-collectivist, 984 00:57:00.289 --> 00:57:05.210 but collectivism formed for a reason that together people were 985 00:57:05.309 --> 00:57:10.159 able to overcome the the adversities of a dangerous natural 986 00:57:10.219 --> 00:57:13.820 world or other things. There's a reason why this all happened. 987 00:57:14.500 --> 00:57:19.980 But somehow once we came together, that instinct of strength 988 00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:23.639 through a stronger floor and through keeping us all together 989 00:57:23.659 --> 00:57:30.269 has now been viewed as a weakness, which I find fascinating. 990 00:57:30.329 --> 00:57:34.090 Like it's such a strange turn of events. 991 00:57:34.570 --> 00:57:34.690 Yes. 992 00:57:35.789 --> 00:57:40.510 And I would love to understand a little bit, and 993 00:57:40.550 --> 00:57:43.170 maybe James, you could do this. What are the tools 994 00:57:43.349 --> 00:57:50.039 that economists have that can help the political and the legal? 995 00:57:50.099 --> 00:57:53.900 Because I think this gets us to how we change it. 996 00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:56.980 Clara talked about this, of people rising up, but they 997 00:57:57.079 --> 00:58:00.139 need the tools to be able to do that. My 998 00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:06.440 fear is these systems only change in catastrophy. or cataclysm, 999 00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:10.679 what are the tools that maybe we can look to 1000 00:58:10.739 --> 00:58:14.219 from economists that can help provide us the ability to 1001 00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:20.230 prosecute a better case for a fairer economy, James? 1002 00:58:21.110 --> 00:58:26.769 Well, I think economists have to think more about the 1003 00:58:26.829 --> 00:58:33.210 negative consequences for society and for the stability of society 1004 00:58:33.250 --> 00:58:36.610 of organizing the economy. in this way. I mean, I, 1005 00:58:36.630 --> 00:58:38.570 you know, as I say, I was saying earlier, you know, 1006 00:58:38.849 --> 00:58:42.090 the problem with mainstream economics is it completely ignores sort 1007 00:58:42.130 --> 00:58:45.929 of society and, and politics, you know, so it doesn't 1008 00:58:45.989 --> 00:58:49.769 think about right and law, what's the feedback onto politics 1009 00:58:49.869 --> 00:58:54.130 of having this enormous increase in income and wealth inequality, 1010 00:58:54.250 --> 00:58:56.989 you know, like that feeds back onto politics, it feeds 1011 00:58:57.070 --> 00:59:00.960 back onto tens of millions of dollars being thrown into 1012 00:59:01.400 --> 00:59:04.460 political contests. And so, of course, but that's not a 1013 00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:07.230 feedback that an economist would think about. Economists do think 1014 00:59:07.289 --> 00:59:10.519 about inequality, and they're very interested in studying inequality. but 1015 00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:14.860 you have to see the whole picture. Why is it 1016 00:59:14.900 --> 00:59:17.159 that economists don't see the whole picture? I don't know. 1017 00:59:17.179 --> 00:59:21.380 I've spent my entire career struggling with that. It's something 1018 00:59:21.500 --> 00:59:25.610 baked into the way economists are taught to think about 1019 00:59:25.969 --> 00:59:28.369 the world. I'm sure Clara would say she has a 1020 00:59:28.409 --> 00:59:34.389 kind of conspiracy theory about this. No, it's not a conspiracy. 1021 00:59:34.469 --> 00:59:37.530 I think it's more complicated than that. 1022 00:59:37.630 --> 00:59:40.630 I also think that economists play a role in society. 1023 00:59:40.650 --> 00:59:43.329 It's not about conspiracy. It's about realizing that all knowledge 1024 00:59:43.369 --> 00:59:47.110 is embedded and that people like us, we create knowledge, 1025 00:59:47.150 --> 00:59:50.849 but we're very privileged as professors with tenure. We tend 1026 00:59:50.869 --> 00:59:52.889 to not see a lot of the time what are 1027 00:59:52.929 --> 00:59:56.889 the difficulties that people actually are living through. This is 1028 00:59:56.929 --> 00:59:59.179 why I think economics needs to not just be based 1029 00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:02.300 in academia and the high ivory towers. We need to 1030 01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:05.099 bring back economics so that it becomes more humane. We 1031 01:00:05.179 --> 01:00:08.460 need the experience of the lived experience of the social 1032 01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:10.789 struggles of people. And this is what we're trying to 1033 01:00:10.829 --> 01:00:14.349 do at Free. We can't renounce economics. We need just 1034 01:00:14.429 --> 01:00:19.190 a different type of economics that raises awareness. Honestly, in 1035 01:00:19.230

--> 01:00:21.639 my own historical work and in my book, The Capital Order, 1036 01:00:21.659 --> 01:00:23.500 this is all I've been doing is looking at the 1037 01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:27.760 origins of neoclassical economics, mainstream economics, to understand how it 1038 01:00:28.260 --> 01:00:31.000 came into being in the moment in which people were saying, 1039 01:00:31.019 --> 01:00:33.860 you know, value comes from us. We are producing the values. 1040 01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:36.519 It's not the entrepreneur, it's the worker. And guess what? 1041 01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:40.639 Neoclassical economics tells you the opposite. Workers don't count. They're just, 1042 01:00:40.889 --> 01:00:44.130 you know, who counts is the entrepreneur. So, of course, 1043 01:00:44.230 --> 01:00:46.530 the lens through which we look at the world is 1044 01:00:46.550 --> 01:00:50.210 very political. And economics is very political because it gives 1045 01:00:50.289 --> 01:00:53.210 us a lens that structurally disempowers. I think we do 1046 01:00:53.269 --> 01:00:56.760 need a more empowering lens. And we also do need 1047 01:00:56.840 --> 01:00:59.880 to be able to look at capitalism and understand its problems. 1048 01:00:59.940 --> 01:01:01.480 I think this is the only way we will have 1049 01:01:01.539 --> 01:01:04.340 imagination that is actually will be able to bring us 1050 01:01:04.380 --> 01:01:06.639 to the confront the challenges of our future. 1051 01:01:07.230 --> 01:01:10.619 I think many economists are studying the world. Many economists 1052 01:01:10.699 --> 01:01:14.320 are doing fieldwork in Latin America, in Africa, in India. 1053 01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:16.480 You know, what am I doing in Rwanda? You know, 1054 01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:20.030 I'm trying to understand the logic of society, of the economics, 1055 01:01:20.090 --> 01:01:23.070 of the polity in Rwanda. I think many economists are 1056 01:01:23.510 --> 01:01:25.920 doing that all already, to be honest with you. 1057 01:01:26.289 --> 01:01:28.489 Is it possible, you know, and again, this is to, 1058 01:01:28.550 --> 01:01:31.960 because I think, you know, while you guys might disagree 1059 01:01:32.019 --> 01:01:35.440 on certain aspects of it, Is it possible too that 1060 01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:40.900 economics is just one other commodity that can be utilized 1061 01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:46.639 by the elites to promote the outcomes that they're looking 1062 01:01:46.739 --> 01:01:50.980 for politically? In other words, it's just one more tool 1063 01:01:51.539 --> 01:01:53.659 that can in some ways be exploited. I think to 1064 01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:56.199 James's point, I think you're right. There's a lot of 1065 01:01:56.420 --> 01:02:02.199 really interested, fascinating economists who are out there in the communities, 1066 01:02:02.619 --> 01:02:08.960 but ultimately, how that knowledge is applied in societies, it 1067 01:02:09.019 --> 01:02:12.949 can be perverted. You know, any knowledge can. And I 1068 01:02:12.989 --> 01:02:15.929 think getting back to what Clara is talking about, you know, 1069 01:02:17.010 --> 01:02:22.989 your history of sort of how the workers' consciousness of 1070 01:02:23.230 --> 01:02:26.309 the 20s coming off of World War I and how 1071 01:02:26.489 --> 01:02:31.590 Mussolini and even in England with the trade unions How 1072 01:02:31.690 --> 01:02:39.369 they used their resentments, right, to actually work against those 1073 01:02:39.949 --> 01:02:43.539 folks is fascinating to me. And that, I think, speaks 1074 01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:45.239 to what James is saying, which is there's a lot 1075 01:02:45.260 --> 01:02:48.940 of people doing this great work, but without the political 1076 01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:52.699 mechanism to not pervert that, how do we prevent that? 1077 01:02:53.159 --> 01:02:53.360 Yes. 1078 01:02:54.059 --> 01:02:57.829 And we need to understand that any knowledge has a method. 1079 01:02:58.269 --> 01:03:00.889 And again, this method is not neutral because there's different 1080 01:03:00.929 --> 01:03:03.010 ways in which you can do economics. And again, you 1081 01:03:03.030 --> 01:03:04.809 can do it in the mainstream way or you can 1082 01:03:04.849 --> 01:03:06.599 do it as we're trying to do that free in 1083 01:03:06.679 --> 01:03:09.159 other places. And I think this is the whole point 1084 01:03:09.219 --> 01:03:12.119 is that economics is just a field that we need 1085 01:03:12.199 --> 01:03:17.010 to then, I think, build with lenses that also can 1086 01:03:17.070 --> 01:03:20.449 help have future imagination. And I do think, though, that 1087 01:03:20.469 --> 01:03:23.250 this imagination is not up to the academic. It's up 1088 01:03:23.329 --> 01:03:26.289 to actual experiments on the ground. In many places in 1089 01:03:26.309 --> 01:03:29.340 the United States, people try to operate through solidarity economies, 1090 01:03:29.420 --> 01:03:32.320 through ways in which, again, you do try to breach 1091 01:03:32.360 --> 01:03:34.980 market dependence. And this is the beginning. But we don't have, 1092 01:03:35.019 --> 01:03:38.699 you know, we can't see the future now as academics, 1093 01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:40.829 but we can definitely help build something different. And I 1094 01:03:40.889 --> 01:03:42.630 think this is the only thing that keeps me not 1095 01:03:42.670 --> 01:03:46.030 depressed about the dehumanization of this world. 1096 01:03:46.650 --> 01:03:49.530 So what Clara is talking about is a more disruptive model, 1097 01:03:49.949 --> 01:03:53.530 you know, using, you know, James, in your model, which may, 1098 01:03:53.829 --> 01:03:57.159 you know, want a little bit more structure. How do 1099 01:03:57.239 --> 01:04:01.219 you see your work being utilized? How would you like 1100 01:04:01.260 --> 01:04:03.980 it to be utilized? And what would you like to 1101 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:06.869 see as the sort of optimistic outlook for that?

1102 01:04:07.420 --> 01:04:09.400 No, I mean, I agree with you. I agree that 1103 01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:11.699 ideas are very powerful in this debate. You know, that's 1104 01:04:11.739 --> 01:04:13.719 why I was saying, you know, we need new ideas. 1105 01:04:13.739 --> 01:04:15.789 We need to be able to kind of reimagine our 1106 01:04:15.929 --> 01:04:18.650 social system. And, you know, think about the influence of 1107 01:04:18.710 --> 01:04:21.679 Milton Friedman. You know, I think. Milton Friedman pushed this 1108 01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:25.340 very simplistic model of like what market economies were about. 1109 01:04:25.730 --> 01:04:28.170 And that was an enormous powerful tool in the hands 1110 01:04:28.210 --> 01:04:30.230 of Mrs. Thatcher or Ronald Reagan. Right. 1111 01:04:30.329 --> 01:04:32.349 That was the beginning of it. The austerity. 1112 01:04:32.389 --> 01:04:34.349 So those ideas are powerful. I mean, I, you know, 1113 01:04:34.489 --> 01:04:36.750 I studied Africa or whatever, you know, and the way 1114 01:04:36.849 --> 01:04:40.699 Africans organize their economy is completely different, you know, historically 1115 01:04:40.780 --> 01:04:44.199 and in many ways today than the way people organize. 1116 01:04:44.219 --> 01:04:46.699 You know, I'm so I'm somewhat reluctant to start talking 1117 01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:49.000 about it, you know, since we're we're talking about the 1118 01:04:49.039 --> 01:04:50.119 kind of Western world. 1119 01:04:50.300 --> 01:04:53.300 No, but it's interesting, James, to look at it from 1120 01:04:53.340 --> 01:04:56.880 that perspective, because if they're more nascent, you have an 1121 01:04:56.920 --> 01:05:00.900 ability to build something that maybe is the system we're 1122 01:05:00.940 --> 01:05:01.480 talking about. 1123 01:05:01.820 --> 01:05:02.019 Yeah. 1124 01:05:02.260 --> 01:05:04.119 Well, I think there's many things, you know, one of 1125 01:05:04.159 --> 01:05:05.969 the reasons, you know, I studied the rest of the 1126 01:05:06.010 --> 01:05:08.010 world is I think there's many, I mean, I agree. 1127 01:05:08.030 --> 01:05:11.210 There's lots of problems. No society is perfect. There's always, 1128 01:05:11.289 --> 01:05:13.440 you know, lots of, Lots of problems. Didn't have to 1129 01:05:13.480 --> 01:05:15.420 go very far from my office in the University of 1130 01:05:15.460 --> 01:05:19.059 Chicago to see that, you know. So I think one 1131 01:05:19.079 --> 01:05:22.019 can always learn from other societies, the way they experimented, 1132 01:05:22.059 --> 01:05:24.800 the way they tried different things. I agree, you know, 1133 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:27.530 like socialism didn't work out very well. So what? You know, 1134 01:05:27.860 --> 01:05:31.170 it was hijacked by whoever, by Stalin, by Fidel Castro. 1135 01:05:31.510 --> 01:05:32.250 So what? 1136 01:05:32.369 --> 01:05:36.230 You know, so let's think about alternatives and let's learn 1137 01:05:36.269 --> 01:05:38.590 from the world. And I agree with that impulse. That's 1138 01:05:38.650 --> 01:05:41.070 exactly it. I agree with that. You know, let's dream. 1139 01:05:41.210 --> 01:05:43.730 I mean, I'm not sure I'm the person to tell 1140 01:05:43.750 --> 01:05:46.880 you about that, you know, because I'm just a British empiricist. 1141 01:05:46.909 --> 01:05:49.320 You know, British people, you know, have a particular mindset. 1142 01:05:49.460 --> 01:05:52.340 I think French people, maybe Italians are much better at this. 1143 01:05:52.579 --> 01:05:56.300 But the empiricism is the point, is being able to 1144 01:05:56.360 --> 01:06:01.280 take empiricism and not have it be perverted and to 1145 01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:05.119 apply it in these areas. You know, we talked about 1146 01:06:05.460 --> 01:06:08.469 Friedman earlier and all that. And I'll end with maybe this. 1147 01:06:09.380 --> 01:06:14.900 And about the value of sort of how these empiricists work. 1148 01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:19.940 Alan Greenspan, famously the Fed chairman from, you know, for 1149 01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:23.039 so long, was on my program, The Daily Show. This 1150 01:06:23.079 --> 01:06:27.579 was post the 2008 financial crisis. And so this is, 1151 01:06:27.679 --> 01:06:32.260 as we talk about, one of the popes of economic vision, 1152 01:06:32.699 --> 01:06:35.420 you know, studied at the foot of Friedman and all 1153 01:06:35.480 --> 01:06:40.039 those guys. And I asked him what went wrong. And 1154 01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:42.460 he said to me, I guess at the end of 1155 01:06:42.500 --> 01:06:45.320 the day, we made a mistake in thinking the banks 1156 01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:46.659 could regulate themselves. 1157 01:06:49.579 --> 01:06:49.900 Oops. 1158 01:06:51.699 --> 01:06:56.010 So that's kind of the point. But listen, I love 1159 01:06:56.090 --> 01:06:58.989 both of your perspectives. I find it really interesting. I 1160 01:06:59.070 --> 01:07:02.949 think it's the question of our times, which is to 1161 01:07:03.769 --> 01:07:08.960 stand back and reimagine the systems that can be in 1162 01:07:09.039 --> 01:07:12.380 healthier balance. And so I really appreciate you guys. You've 1163 01:07:12.440 --> 01:07:17.320 put so many wonderful ideas out to think about. So 1164 01:07:17.340 --> 01:07:19.550 I really appreciate you both being here. Claire Mate, Professor 1165 01:07:19.570 --> 01:07:22.869 of Economics, University of Tulsa, the Executive Director of FREE, 1166 01:07:23.250 --> 01:07:27.309 the Forum for Real Economic Emancipation, author of The Capital Order. 1167 01:07:27.510 --> 01:07:28.070 It's a great book. 1168 01:07:28.469 --> 01:07:30.659 James Robertson, University Professor at the Harris School for Public 1169 01:07:30.699 --> 01:07:32.900 Policy and the Department of Political Science at the University 1170 01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:34.780 of Chicago Nobel Prize Awardee in 2024. 1171 01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:34.829 And. 1172 01:07:37.369 -->

01:07:40.719 Out and about right now in Africa, checking out economic 1173 01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:43.420 systems on the ground. I so appreciate you both taking 1174 01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:44.150 the time to be with us. 1175 01:07:44.199 --> 01:07:45.519 Thank you again. My pleasure. 1176 01:07:45.539 --> 01:07:46.159 Thank you. 1177 01:07:46.199 --> 01:07:47.800 Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. 1178 01:07:52.179 --> 01:07:53.320 Economist fight! 1179 01:07:54.300 --> 01:07:55.050 On our show? 1180 01:07:55.150 --> 01:07:55.610 Never. 1181 01:07:56.050 --> 01:07:57.110 You were a really good referee. 1182 01:07:57.489 --> 01:07:59.630 I was, I didn't even know that was going to 1183 01:07:59.650 --> 01:08:00.190 go down. 1184 01:08:00.590 --> 01:08:02.150 No, you never expect that. 1185 01:08:02.170 --> 01:08:04.010 But what does it say about us that like our 1186 01:08:04.070 --> 01:08:06.269 economy episodes are the most fiery, you know? 1187 01:08:07.469 --> 01:08:08.989 It is the most, it gets in there. Can I 1188 01:08:09.050 --> 01:08:12.900 say this though, that I so appreciated? The lack of 1189 01:08:13.019 --> 01:08:17.420 condescension and smug eye-rolling from both economists was such a 1190 01:08:17.500 --> 01:08:22.319 refreshing for me. Like whenever I'm talking to economists, I 1191 01:08:22.399 --> 01:08:24.779 always feel like, it's like, you know that you get 1192 01:08:24.819 --> 01:08:28.909 a fortune cookie and you read in bed after every fortune, 1193 01:08:28.949 --> 01:08:31.850 that's the game. With economists, I think the game is 1194 01:08:32.649 --> 01:08:37.680 after everything they say, You just add, you asshole. Because 1195 01:08:37.739 --> 01:08:42.380 it's like, no, demand goes up when money policy is 1196 01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:44.359 less restrictive, you asshole. 1197 01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:47.020 And they love to say, that's econ 101. 1198 01:08:47.020 --> 01:08:47.310 Right. 1199 01:08:48.949 --> 01:08:52.649 None of that from these guys. Just flat out fucking 1200 01:08:52.909 --> 01:08:54.069 economic passion. 1201 01:08:54.289 --> 01:08:55.810 You know what I really appreciated, though? 1202 01:08:55.829 --> 01:09:00.159 I appreciated the reminder that economics isn't a science. And 1203 01:09:00.220 --> 01:09:03.100 I really liked the point that we were touching on 1204 01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:07.449 with Clara about, you know, austerity is a choice and 1205 01:09:07.489 --> 01:09:10.170 it is a tool. And all I could think about 1206 01:09:10.289 --> 01:09:12.949 was the big, beautiful bill, which we also touched on 1207 01:09:13.050 --> 01:09:16.729 and how the healthcare provisions, the taking away of Medicaid 1208 01:09:16.850 --> 01:09:19.939 doesn't happen unless until after the midterms. 1209 01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:23.770 That is a choice. That is a tool. It's exactly right. 1210 01:09:24.130 --> 01:09:28.170 Austerity isn't inevitable. It's a choice that serves specific interests. 1211 01:09:28.529 --> 01:09:30.890 And I think the one thing that they would definitely 1212 01:09:30.949 --> 01:09:33.430 agree on is that nothing about the way that people 1213 01:09:33.590 --> 01:09:37.569 interpret the economy is neutral. And nothing about the medicine 1214 01:09:37.609 --> 01:09:39.850 that they prescribe to the economy is neutral. 1215 01:09:40.050 --> 01:09:42.109 And it's not just because of politics. 1216 01:09:42.170 --> 01:09:45.909 It's because in the field itself, it requires the cherry 1217 01:09:45.949 --> 01:09:47.060 picking of certain data. 1218 01:09:47.079 --> 01:09:47.619 Right. 1219 01:09:48.630 --> 01:09:50.329 I thought it was interesting too when they talked about 1220 01:09:50.750 --> 01:09:54.369 you cannot remove the legal system and the political system 1221 01:09:54.649 --> 01:09:58.880 from economics, but so often the field narrows its focus 1222 01:09:59.920 --> 01:10:01.800 to do that. And I think to your point, Lauren, 1223 01:10:01.819 --> 01:10:04.619 that the idea that the things that people might be 1224 01:10:04.659 --> 01:10:08.079 upset about won't kick in until after it won't matter 1225 01:10:08.119 --> 01:10:11.069 to them for the elections. But I think also the 1226 01:10:11.109 --> 01:10:14.170 broader thing of we get so wrapped up in like, oh, 1227 01:10:14.210 --> 01:10:16.229 there might be some cuts to Medicaid and things like 1228 01:10:16.270 --> 01:10:21.359 that without the stepping back and realizing, right, relying on 1229 01:10:23.270 --> 01:10:26.829 work or subsidies to get health insurance is fucked in 1230 01:10:26.869 --> 01:10:27.649 the first place. 1231 01:10:28.310 --> 01:10:28.970 Absolutely. 1232 01:10:29.050 --> 01:10:32.729 That these are the things, and this is not the 1233 01:10:32.770 --> 01:10:35.909 way the system has to be designed. This is the 1234 01:10:35.949 --> 01:10:36.930 way we've designed it. 1235 01:10:37.630 --> 01:10:39.189 And something else that stood out to me is just 1236 01:10:39.229 --> 01:10:43.970 that it's so unfortunate that World War I And COVID 1237 01:10:44.229 --> 01:10:46.850 are the moments that people realize that the government can 1238 01:10:46.909 --> 01:10:47.850 actually work for them. 1239 01:10:48.409 --> 01:10:50.810 He's like absolute miserable. 1240 01:10:50.829 --> 01:10:52.760 Well, even when he said after World War II, we 1241 01:10:52.770 --> 01:10:55.560 had that more demand and we had great prosperity. But then, 1242 01:10:56.359 --> 01:10:58.060 you know, there was a little bit of stagflation in 1243 01:10:58.079 --> 01:10:58.640 the 70s. 1244 01:10:58.699 --> 01:11:00.760 And so Reagan and Thatcher came in and said, kick 1245 01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:01.340 people off. 1246 01:11:01.500 --> 01:11:03.039 We should be fine here. 1247 01:11:03.079 --> 01:11:03.689 That'll be fine. 1248 01:11:06.739 --> 01:11:08.600 I guess also the other thing I was thinking about 1249 01:11:08.649 --> 01:11:11.149 was just how the Big

Beautiful Bill came about in 1250 01:11:11.310 --> 01:11:15.649 order to address the deficit, but actually increases it and 1251 01:11:15.670 --> 01:11:18.909 will just raise the debt ceiling as the solution, which. 1252 01:11:18.930 --> 01:11:21.369 Is addressing the deficit in its way. 1253 01:11:21.670 --> 01:11:22.109 You know what? 1254 01:11:22.149 --> 01:11:23.750 If you do, you know what, Jillian, that's a good point. 1255 01:11:23.770 --> 01:11:26.890 If you trash the economy, I guess that could, deficit 1256 01:11:26.909 --> 01:11:27.550 would go up more slowly. 1257 01:11:27.569 --> 01:11:28.789 Fantastic. 1258 01:11:28.829 --> 01:11:30.609 Brittany, what do we got? What do the listeners want 1259 01:11:30.630 --> 01:11:31.130 to know this week? 1260 01:11:32.449 --> 01:11:33.149 First up, John. 1261 01:11:33.909 --> 01:11:36.050 Do you think that Skydance would get rid of The 1262 01:11:36.090 --> 01:11:38.510 Daily Show after the merger goes through? 1263 01:11:38.529 --> 01:11:40.090 Skydance, the company that's coming in? 1264 01:11:40.569 --> 01:11:44.640 Boy, that's a good question. 1265 01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:48.100 Unfortunately, we haven't heard anything from them. 1266 01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:50.979 They haven't called me and said, like, don't get too 1267 01:11:51.060 --> 01:11:54.520 comfortable in that office, do it. But let me tell 1268 01:11:54.539 --> 01:11:58.340 you something. I've been kicked out of shittier establishments than that. 1269 01:11:59.119 --> 01:12:02.739 We'll land on our feet. No, I honestly don't. No. 1270 01:12:02.899 --> 01:12:06.619 I mean, I, I think I'd like to believe that 1271 01:12:07.260 --> 01:12:10.739 like without the daily show, I don't know. Comedy Central 1272 01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:14.229 is kind of like Muzak at this point without, I 1273 01:12:14.270 --> 01:12:18.789 think we're the only sort of in like life that 1274 01:12:18.829 --> 01:12:22.310 exists on a current basis other than like South. 1275 01:12:22.130 --> 01:12:24.289 Park, but it's the only thing on there. 1276 01:12:24.470 --> 01:12:29.479 I'd like to think we, we bring enough value to 1277 01:12:29.640 --> 01:12:33.319 the property. Like if they're looking at it as, as 1278 01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:36.640 purely a real estate transaction, I think we bring. 1279 01:12:36.439 --> 01:12:40.279 A lot of value, but that may not be their consideration. 1280 01:12:40.420 --> 01:12:42.220 I don't know. They may sell the whole fucking place 1281 01:12:42.260 --> 01:12:43.819 for parts. I just don't know. 1282 01:12:44.560 --> 01:12:50.689 Um, and, and we'll, we'll deal with it when we do, but, uh, 1283 01:12:51.170 --> 01:12:53.909 I'm so happy and proud of everybody that works over there. 1284 01:12:53.930 --> 01:12:57.229 Like they want to do that, knock themselves out. Well, 1285 01:12:57.670 --> 01:13:00.510 you know, as, as Jay Leno would say about Doritos, 1286 01:13:01.229 --> 01:13:02.489 go ahead, crunch all you want. 1287 01:13:02.529 --> 01:13:03.760 Well, we'll make more. 1288 01:13:04.279 --> 01:13:06.460 So we'll, we'll figure that out when the time comes 1289 01:13:06.539 --> 01:13:09.399 and where we, where we have. 1290 01:13:09.300 --> 01:13:09.619 To do it. 1291 01:13:10.140 --> 01:13:12.020 Uh, but I, like I say, that is without, I 1292 01:13:12.060 --> 01:13:15.630 have no knowledge, you know, we've all got a surmise 1293 01:13:15.689 --> 01:13:18.250 about like who actually is owning it and what his 1294 01:13:19.010 --> 01:13:22.470 ideology is, but ideology may not play a part. 1295 01:13:22.810 --> 01:13:23.869 I don't, I just don't know. 1296 01:13:25.069 --> 01:13:25.510 One could hope. 1297 01:13:26.109 --> 01:13:26.689 One could hope. 1298 01:13:26.930 --> 01:13:27.130 Yes. 1299 01:13:27.210 --> 01:13:27.680 What else we got? 1300 01:13:29.020 --> 01:13:33.399 Trump now claims the Epstein files were actually written by Obama, Biden, 1301 01:13:33.470 --> 01:13:33.829 and Comey. 1302 01:13:33.850 --> 01:13:33.949 Sure. 1303 01:13:34.010 --> 01:13:35.750 No, that makes total sense. 1304 01:13:35.770 --> 01:13:35.970 Yeah. 1305 01:13:36.510 --> 01:13:39.310 Is this the biggest cover-up in American history or just 1306 01:13:39.369 --> 01:13:40.329 another Tuesday? 1307 01:13:40.409 --> 01:13:41.750 Oh, God, I don't fucking know. 1308 01:13:41.770 --> 01:13:48.470 The whole thing is so abjectly ridiculous. Look, we talked 1309 01:13:48.489 --> 01:13:50.710 about it on The Daily Show last night. Occam's razor, like, 1310 01:13:51.869 --> 01:13:55.369 Like there's not that many people who are on video 1311 01:13:55.430 --> 01:13:58.489 dancing with Jeffrey Epstein and with his arm around him 1312 01:13:58.789 --> 01:14:01.960 and on the plane as the president of the United States. 1313 01:14:01.979 --> 01:14:04.279 So the idea that, you know, I understand what he's doing. 1314 01:14:04.579 --> 01:14:08.020 He's he's doing the whole like it's just like Hunter's laptop. 1315 01:14:08.079 --> 01:14:08.920 And you're like, OK. 1316 01:14:10.079 --> 01:14:10.180 Yeah. 1317 01:14:10.199 --> 01:14:11.899 The lady doth protest too much. 1318 01:14:12.680 --> 01:14:15.300 I mean, the whole thing is fucking. 1319 01:14:16.270 --> 01:14:18.890 Insane and the idea that he's like why are we 1320 01:14:18.909 --> 01:14:22.239 still talking about that anyway about the 2020 election. 1321 01:14:22.220 --> 01:14:24.199 That was stolen you know all right. 1322 01:14:25.819 --> 01:14:29.399 Um listen man and rosie o'donnell. 1323 01:14:29.960 --> 01:14:33.930 And rosie o'donnell and then alan dershowitz suddenly all over 1324 01:14:33.970 --> 01:14:36.170 tv going i know everybody. 1325 01:14:35.789 --> 01:14:38.909 On the list i'm not i was there everybody's on the. 1326 01:14:38.829 --> 01:14:41.270 List i was there but i'm not allowed to tell 1327 01:14:41.350 --> 01:14:43.699 anybody I'm under confidentiality. 1328 01:14:43.720 --> 01:14:45.840 And you're like,

what were you, Epstein's lawyer? Like, what 1329 01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:47.699 do you mean confidentiality? 1330 01:14:48.720 --> 01:14:52.340 And you got this other, I'm sure Ghislaine Maxwell's. 1331 01:14:51.899 --> 01:14:53.229 In jail going like, so what am I in jail 1332 01:14:53.250 --> 01:14:53.649 for again? 1333 01:14:54.329 --> 01:14:54.750 Yeah. 1334 01:14:54.930 --> 01:14:55.529 Like, what? 1335 01:14:56.649 --> 01:14:59.270 This is like, it's the opposite of a nothing burger, 1336 01:14:59.329 --> 01:15:02.569 but I just don't understand why they can't, or just 1337 01:15:02.609 --> 01:15:06.689 like fucking prosecute the people that are prosecutable and let's 1338 01:15:06.729 --> 01:15:07.340 be done with this. 1339 01:15:07.350 --> 01:15:10.239 It's a great conspiracy, huh? 1340 01:15:10.600 --> 01:15:14.140 Man, man, man. But hell of a, once again, hell 1341 01:15:14.180 --> 01:15:16.180 of a week. How do they get in touch with us, Brittany? 1342 01:15:16.979 --> 01:15:20.479 Twitter, we are Weekly Show Pod. Instagram threads, TikTok, Blue Sky. 1343 01:15:20.500 --> 01:15:23.300 We are Weekly Show Podcast. And you can like, subscribe, 1344 01:15:23.319 --> 01:15:25.479 and comment on our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with 1345 01:15:25.500 --> 01:15:26.020 Jon Stewart. 1346 01:15:26.050 --> 01:15:29.470 There you go. Nicely done. Guys, thank you guys so much. 1347 01:15:29.649 --> 01:15:30.489 Excellent as always. 1348 01:15:30.710 --> 01:15:34.029 Lead producer, Lauren Walker. Producer, Brittany Mamedovic. Video editor and engineer, 1349 01:15:34.069 --> 01:15:37.569 Rob Vitolo, who saved the show today. I just want 1350 01:15:37.590 --> 01:15:41.399 to point out that people don't understand video editing, sound editing, 1351 01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:44.449 audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce. I was on, we 1352 01:15:44.489 --> 01:15:48.109 had a guy calling in from Africa. We had someone 1353 01:15:48.149 --> 01:15:49.529 calling in from, I don't know where. 1354 01:15:50.069 --> 01:15:50.590 Tulsa. 1355 01:15:50.729 --> 01:15:53.550 She was in Tulsa. And yet I was the one who. 1356 01:15:55.130 --> 01:16:00.529 Like, every time I talked, it just went, Rob fixed 1357 01:16:00.569 --> 01:16:03.189 it up, pressed a couple of buttons, had me throw 1358 01:16:03.210 --> 01:16:05.050 the computer out the window and then pull it back 1359 01:16:05.109 --> 01:16:05.649 into the window. 1360 01:16:06.470 --> 01:16:07.770 And all fixed up. 1361 01:16:07.829 --> 01:16:10.630 Researcher and associate producer, Jillian Spear, as always, executive producers, 1362 01:16:10.930 --> 01:16:12.210 Chris McShane and Katie Gray. 1363 01:16:12.609 --> 01:16:13.850 We will see you guys next week. 1364 01:16:14.250 --> 01:16:17.829 Enjoy this beautiful July thunderstorm. 1365 01:16:18.300 --> 01:16:18.489 All right. 1366 01:16:19.180 --> 01:16:19.359 Bye. 1367 01:16:25.800 --> 01:16:28.899 The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. 1368 01:16:29.220 --> 01:16:32.170 It's produced by Paramount Audio and Busboy Productions. 1369 01:16:44.800 --> 01:16:46.039 Paramount Podcasts