TRANSKRIP 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:04.828 --> 00:00:07.348
Dallas Campbell: Hello and
welcome to Outer Orbit, our little
00:00:07.348 --> 00:00:12.928
companion podcast this week live
from the ISAM Conference 2025.
00:00:13.348 --> 00:00:17.668
I'm your host, Dallas Campbell, and
today we're gonna be hearing all about
00:00:17.728 --> 00:00:24.028
the importance of standardisation We've
got Gary Cannon, the Space Segment Lead
00:00:24.028 --> 00:00:29.038
from the Satellite Applications Catapult
and Stella Tkatchova the program manager
00:00:29.038 --> 00:00:30.988
from the European Innovation Council.
00:00:31.742 --> 00:00:34.432
Gary Cannon: I'd like to set the stage
by explaining why standards for ISAM
00:00:34.432 --> 00:00:38.162
are not just helpful, but essential
to unlocking the next phase of
00:00:38.162 --> 00:00:40.382
sustainable and scalable space activity.
00:00:40.726 --> 00:00:44.056
We're entering era, were servicing,
upgrading, refueling, and even
00:00:44.056 --> 00:00:47.686
assembling spacecraft on orbit are no
longer the stuff of science fiction.
00:00:48.226 --> 00:00:52.886
Missions like Northrop Grummans, MEVS
and MRV, Astroscale's Elsa and ADRAS
00:00:52.906 --> 00:00:57.376
Missions, ESA's ClearSpace, UKSA's
Cosmic and Clear Missions have shown
00:00:57.376 --> 00:01:00.916
that ISAM technologies are not only
possible they're increasingly necessary.
00:01:02.176 --> 00:01:03.166
Well, here's the challenge.
00:01:03.676 --> 00:01:07.636
The orbital environment is congested,
diverse, and largely unregulated when
00:01:07.636 --> 00:01:11.326
it comes to servicing interfaces,
safety protocols, or design principles.
00:01:11.746 --> 00:01:14.896
Without standards, every mission
becomes bespoke, which means
00:01:15.136 --> 00:01:18.916
expensive to design, hard to insure,
and nearly impossible to scale.
00:01:19.816 --> 00:01:23.296
Standards provide the common language
that enables safe and interoperable
00:01:23.346 --> 00:01:28.387
servicing operations, lower mission
risk and cost, easier regulatory
00:01:28.387 --> 00:01:31.417
approval and a stronger case for
investment in this growing sector.
00:01:32.557 --> 00:01:34.747
So what's the role of standards
in de-risking the market?
00:01:34.931 --> 00:01:38.453
From a technical standpoint, standards
underpin interoperability between
00:01:38.453 --> 00:01:41.933
services and clients across different
orbits and even among nations.
00:01:43.103 --> 00:01:46.493
They define what a docking mechanism
should look like, how a spacecraft
00:01:46.493 --> 00:01:49.943
should communicate during rendezvous,
and how to ensure false tolerance.
00:01:50.903 --> 00:01:53.813
From a commercial perspective,
standards reduce ambiguity.
00:01:53.933 --> 00:01:56.363
If an operator knows that their
satellite can be serviced by
00:01:56.363 --> 00:01:59.303
any number of providers, thanks
for a modular or standardized
00:01:59.303 --> 00:02:01.223
interface, that's a business case.
Load full transcript
00:02:01.883 --> 00:02:05.513
If insurers know that safe proximity
operations follow agreed best practices,
00:02:05.723 --> 00:02:07.613
that's a risk profile they can underwrite.
00:02:08.903 --> 00:02:12.633
If regulators can see clearly defined,
internationally accepted procedures,
00:02:12.813 --> 00:02:14.433
that's a policy they can support.
00:02:15.318 --> 00:02:16.398
So where are we now?
00:02:17.118 --> 00:02:19.533
The good news is that we're
not starting from scratch.
00:02:19.643 --> 00:02:22.403
Now is the time to begin aligning
these efforts, identifying the
00:02:22.403 --> 00:02:24.113
gaps, and mapping a way forward.
00:02:24.833 --> 00:02:25.643
So what's at stake?
00:02:26.123 --> 00:02:27.983
This isn't just the technical exercise.
00:02:28.043 --> 00:02:31.973
Standards influence who leads, who
benefits, and how fast we grow.
00:02:32.423 --> 00:02:36.983
If we don't define open, fair, and
interoperable frameworks now we risk
00:02:36.983 --> 00:02:40.823
a future of proprietary ecosystems,
limited service and compatibility,
00:02:40.823 --> 00:02:42.203
and increased orbital risk.
00:02:42.953 --> 00:02:46.193
Today we've designed the session
to reflect the breadth and depth
00:02:46.193 --> 00:02:48.803
of the standardization challenge
and the opportunities therein.
00:02:49.373 --> 00:02:53.733
With that, it's my pleasure to welcome
our keynote speaker, Stella Tkatchova
00:02:53.753 --> 00:02:56.153
is the program manager for Space
Systems at the European Innovation
00:02:56.153 --> 00:03:00.128
Council, and has managed the Artez
Indigo Private Public Partnership.
00:03:00.278 --> 00:03:04.688
Gov SATCOM O3B and the Copernicus
Sentinel One and Three programs.
00:03:05.108 --> 00:03:09.008
She's co-founded a company in the
ADR domain, worked on Galileo and ISS
00:03:09.008 --> 00:03:12.758
programs at Aztec, and holds a PhD by
the faculty of Aerospace Engineering
00:03:12.818 --> 00:03:14.318
at the Technical University of Delft.
00:03:14.858 --> 00:03:17.918
She's a published author and podcaster
highlighting the commercialization of
00:03:17.918 --> 00:03:22.208
space technology, space debris mitigation,
in-Orbit servicing, it's a long list,
00:03:22.388 --> 00:03:26.828
active debris removal, in space logistics
and cis lunar exploration, and is the
00:03:26.828 --> 00:03:29.918
founder and Former Editor in Chief
of the International Journal of Space
00:03:29.918 --> 00:03:31.718
Technology of Management and Innovation.
00:03:32.022 --> 00:03:33.672
Stela Tkatchova: Thank
you very much, Gary.
00:03:33.732 --> 00:03:36.672
Thank you very much for
the honor to be invited.
00:03:37.482 --> 00:03:40.662
What is the EIC role
in the space industry?
00:03:40.762 --> 00:03:47.362
So the European Innovation Council funds
game changing, high risk innovation, and
00:03:47.362 --> 00:03:53.812
the beauty of the EIC is that we funded
from very real low TRL to high TRL.
00:03:54.352 --> 00:04:00.267
Our program is actually bottom up
with Pathfinder Open and Accelerator
00:04:00.267 --> 00:04:05.547
Open and top down with challenges
defined by the program managers.
00:04:05.907 --> 00:04:11.037
Me as the program manager for space
systems, actually not only I define the
00:04:11.037 --> 00:04:16.947
challenges, I sit in the evaluations,
but I also manage the space portfolio.
00:04:17.667 --> 00:04:21.957
So the space portfolio has three pillars.
00:04:22.287 --> 00:04:27.817
Space Debris Sustainability,
which collects projects, looking
00:04:27.817 --> 00:04:34.357
at removing debris, remediation,
mitigation, but also In-Orbit satellite
00:04:34.357 --> 00:04:36.337
servicing, active debris removal.
00:04:37.087 --> 00:04:42.234
Enabling Space Technologies is
all the subsystems of a satellite.
00:04:42.684 --> 00:04:49.019
We have propulsion, panel antennas,
but we also have in space manufacturing
00:04:49.019 --> 00:04:54.501
of solar arrays which is very
strongly linked to the ISAM a domain.
00:04:55.221 --> 00:05:00.801
And the third pillar is Earth Observation
and Meteorology, so as you see, we
00:05:00.801 --> 00:05:04.441
have an extremely diverse portfolio.
00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:09.000
We know very well that current satellites
are designed, built and launched into
00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:14.340
space not to be service and repaired,
and we know that there is a lack of
00:05:14.540 --> 00:05:19.040
plug and play architecture, and that's
why we are pushing and discussing very
00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.550
much modularity and modular platforms.
00:05:22.940 --> 00:05:28.783
What I've observed is when we launched
the course of the last, two or three
00:05:28.783 --> 00:05:33.643
years, I observed diverse concepts,
for example, for space debris
00:05:33.643 --> 00:05:36.823
remediation and in space recycling.
00:05:37.423 --> 00:05:39.583
Clearly the experiment phase.
00:05:40.021 --> 00:05:44.161
What I observed in some of the accelerator
projects doing in-Orbit satellite
00:05:44.161 --> 00:05:47.461
servicing, they'll be developing a
robotic arm, which will be at the
00:05:47.461 --> 00:05:52.214
certain TRL level, but that the grippers
will be at different TRL levels.
00:05:52.214 --> 00:05:58.814
So there is a lot of complexity and the
TRL levels of the different technologies
00:05:58.904 --> 00:06:01.124
or concepts are completely different.
00:06:01.574 --> 00:06:08.054
The other issue is also time to market too
long, unknown profits and unclear markets.
00:06:08.054 --> 00:06:12.194
Despite the successful launch of Math
One and Math Two, five years ago.
00:06:12.734 --> 00:06:14.444
Very different value chains.
00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:20.339
In the different segments, and as you
mentioned, Gary, interoperability.
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:26.369
The direct benefits from interoperability
and direct cost savings are not clearly
00:06:26.369 --> 00:06:32.579
defined, a topic on which I do believe we
need to touch on strongly in the future.
00:06:33.299 --> 00:06:37.544
Opportunities, we need to have more
and more technology demos, and that
00:06:37.544 --> 00:06:42.674
will be opportunities like the ISO
platform mission or the program we
00:06:42.674 --> 00:06:48.524
have this year for in-orbit satellite
servicing, funding, proximity, operation
00:06:48.554 --> 00:06:50.294
in space, refueling, and so on.
00:06:50.804 --> 00:06:52.964
Cos components are widely used.
00:06:53.504 --> 00:06:58.544
There is actually at the moment
initial demand driven by institutional
00:06:58.544 --> 00:07:04.274
customers, and also another very
important aspect is, and this is to my
00:07:04.274 --> 00:07:09.704
colleagues from ESA on the zero debris,
debris mitigation and remediation
00:07:09.734 --> 00:07:14.804
integrated in spacecraft design for
the future is a critical importance,
00:07:14.804 --> 00:07:16.514
and they're working towards that.
00:07:17.054 --> 00:07:22.214
So I do believe that ISAM is
an emerging market opportunity.
00:07:22.664 --> 00:07:25.274
So this is our roadmap today.
00:07:26.128 --> 00:07:32.758
In 2023 we had the Pathfinder challenge
about in-space solar energy harvesting.
00:07:32.758 --> 00:07:37.035
We selected nine projects, they're
working in three working groups,
00:07:37.035 --> 00:07:41.715
solar cells, wireless power,
transmission space, green proportion,
00:07:42.075 --> 00:07:46.761
and customer driven applications,
and there you see ISAM already
00:07:46.761 --> 00:07:49.341
in-orbit, satellite services inside.
00:07:50.121 --> 00:07:55.011
We just closed the call of the
Pathfinder on space debris mitigation
00:07:55.071 --> 00:08:00.711
and remediation and in space recycling,
which I do believe is a topic of
00:08:00.711 --> 00:08:04.208
huge relevance for this audience.
00:08:04.238 --> 00:08:11.378
And finally, we have the topic of 50
million for IOS is space transportation
00:08:11.408 --> 00:08:14.408
and space-based cyber resilience.
00:08:14.858 --> 00:08:21.668
Other challenges is when we called
for the space debris call we received
00:08:21.668 --> 00:08:26.708
many, many proposals on space
debris mitigation and remediation,
00:08:26.708 --> 00:08:29.288
very few on in-space recycling.
00:08:30.128 --> 00:08:35.693
Now in the role as a program
manager, we contribute to the
00:08:35.693 --> 00:08:37.853
Pathfinder, which are the committee.
00:08:37.853 --> 00:08:41.903
So the independent experts who assess
and they make sure that there is a
00:08:41.903 --> 00:08:47.935
balance of projects Where the projects
have to have a shared component or
00:08:48.265 --> 00:08:53.125
potential complementarity, they have to
have common synergies and work together.
00:08:53.358 --> 00:08:58.488
Having projects in mitigation and
remediation where you have such a
00:08:58.488 --> 00:09:03.276
diversity on the robotic arms, the
orbiting mechanism, magnets, but also
00:09:03.276 --> 00:09:09.558
propellant list technologies like,
lasers status, solar concentration,
00:09:09.618 --> 00:09:17.075
makes it very difficult to talk about
standards or creates a automatic gap.
00:09:17.555 --> 00:09:22.800
Not to talk about in space recycling
or reusing orbital assets, which was
00:09:22.800 --> 00:09:24.930
more focused actually on mechanical.
00:09:24.930 --> 00:09:29.760
But we received some interesting
proposals also on laser welding.
00:09:29.760 --> 00:09:35.720
So this challenge was addressed
by me as a program manager by
00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.060
actually requesting the projects who
apply to do portfolio management.
00:09:42.110 --> 00:09:43.280
What does that mean?
00:09:43.798 --> 00:09:49.348
Every project will propose what are
the gaps they want to identify in the
00:09:49.348 --> 00:09:54.028
technology, regulatory, transition to
technology innovation, some of them
00:09:54.028 --> 00:09:59.488
proposed even cost benefit analysis,
early commercialization, and so on.
00:09:59.998 --> 00:10:04.078
So even before they selected,
these projects have to propose some
00:10:04.078 --> 00:10:09.778
ideas, and then later on during the
evaluation, the experts also take
00:10:09.778 --> 00:10:12.128
under consideration this aspect.
00:10:12.748 --> 00:10:18.388
So what happened was that there was
clearly gaps in the regulation, and here
00:10:18.388 --> 00:10:23.788
I put on purpose that I would like to
have the working groups, particularly
00:10:23.788 --> 00:10:29.458
for this space challenge to work
together because these to contribute
00:10:29.518 --> 00:10:35.708
to better understanding or improved
the standards and regulative framework.
00:10:36.848 --> 00:10:41.828
So this is an important aspect because
all the projects, when they're selected,
00:10:41.828 --> 00:10:47.669
they will work together and they will
present all the results of their research
00:10:47.669 --> 00:10:54.629
activities, either identifying regulation
gaps, scientific market technological into
00:10:54.629 --> 00:10:57.694
a strategic portfolio plan, a common one.
00:10:58.544 --> 00:11:04.004
So this is a way which we are addressing
here at the EIC, this question.
00:11:04.004 --> 00:11:07.844
Now, on the other hand, the
EIC is an executive agency
00:11:07.844 --> 00:11:09.074
of the European Commission.
00:11:09.074 --> 00:11:10.814
We do not do policies.
00:11:10.814 --> 00:11:16.064
My colleagues from DG DEFIS and I
work in close collaboration with them.
00:11:16.494 --> 00:11:20.784
I provide them with the recommendations
from the different working groups.
00:11:21.849 --> 00:11:28.644
So, in conclusion, what I saw in our
space portfolio the last two years
00:11:28.644 --> 00:11:35.244
linked to this topic, very strong
interest for space debris mitigation and
00:11:35.244 --> 00:11:38.034
proposing technologies for remediation.
00:11:38.664 --> 00:11:42.941
However, I expected much
more on in space recycling.
00:11:42.941 --> 00:11:48.341
There were very few proposals, very,
very few, and that was difficult
00:11:48.341 --> 00:11:50.111
while we were building the portfolio.
00:11:50.531 --> 00:11:54.911
However, most of the proposals did
make a very clear link that the
00:11:54.911 --> 00:12:01.096
technologies they proposing for,
active debris removal, robotic arms or
00:12:01.786 --> 00:12:08.521
grippers and so on there also the next
future application is ISAM and ISOS.
00:12:09.561 --> 00:12:14.691
The proposals, all of them, which
are selected at the moment are
00:12:14.691 --> 00:12:19.231
very much complimentary to the
future evolution of ISAM missions.
00:12:20.241 --> 00:12:21.261
What did I see?
00:12:21.861 --> 00:12:28.666
Space-based SSA, a lot of AI machine
learning for autonomous space operations,
00:12:29.206 --> 00:12:34.096
a lot of proposals for robotic
arms gripper, but very excitingly,
00:12:34.096 --> 00:12:36.286
also, laser a blazer technologies.
00:12:37.066 --> 00:12:42.526
These are the areas where I
observed growing interests.
00:12:42.886 --> 00:12:48.286
I do believe in some areas we'll be
mainly institutionally driven, but
00:12:48.346 --> 00:12:51.826
others will be really market driven.
00:12:52.496 --> 00:12:57.521
It's too early to say which one will
succeed, but we will see, and this
00:12:57.521 --> 00:12:59.946
is the long-term future, I foresee.
00:13:00.891 --> 00:13:05.541
I think that all the capabilities
we're developing of today will help
00:13:05.541 --> 00:13:07.401
us for future learner missions.
00:13:07.401 --> 00:13:08.421
Thank you very much.
00:13:08.786 --> 00:13:10.946
Dallas Campbell: To hear future
episodes of In-Orbit, don't forget.
00:13:10.976 --> 00:13:16.496
Be sure to subscribe on your favorite
podcast app and head over to YouTube
00:13:16.496 --> 00:13:20.786
to watch video versions of all our
discussions, and if you'd like to find
00:13:20.786 --> 00:13:25.766
out more about how space is empowering
your industry, visit the Catapult
00:13:25.766 --> 00:13:28.556
website or join them on social media.