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00:00:00
Speaker 1: Twelve minutes past four. Let's focus our attention now on the details contained in that report by the Independent Police Investigative Directorate IPID is the name by which you perhaps know them better. They looked into the conduct of the officers who were first charged with looking into the theft of money from the president's game from Pala Pala, and then the recovery of that money. Kyle Kahan joins US now investigative journalist from News twenty four. They were instrumental in getting this report released. Kyl, A very good afternoon to you, and welcome to the show. I want to read this sentence from your report, which seems to me to be absolutely critical. It's captured in the headline as well the sentence. First, the IPID report, which has been secret since it was completed in October twenty twenty three, has drawn President Rama Porsa closer to what looks like a major cover up to hide the president and subsequent theft of at least ten million round in cash from the president's farm. The dollar amount five hundred and eighty thousand dollars. And speaking of the headline, I know journalists don't always write those, but it does seem to make the same point. Pala Pala explosive IPID report pools Rama Pauls are closer to farm theft cover up. You're saying this report and its contents have serious political and possibly legal implications for the president. Tell us why, good afternoon to.
00:01:30
Speaker 2: You Grussian John, and as always, thank you for having me. Yes, I think it's very important that we delve into the detail of the IPEd report here a little bit. And what's absolutely critical is that within ten days, nine or ten days of IMMANUELA. David, one of the burglary suspects, being arrested in Namibia, the President issues an instruction to his Special Envoy and Special Advisor, doctor vajohnny Chuk to travel to Namibia. This is in June of twenty twenty two. June of twenty twenty two, and at that point we were in COVID restrictions. In June of twenty twenty we weren't allowed to travel. And he's the ostensible reason for this trip is for doctor Chowki to pass on a message relating to the national security of South Africa, Namibia and another country that we still don't know. And accompanying him on this trip is Major General Wallyrud at the head of the Presidential Protection Service, and they cross from South Africa to the No Man's Land area just after Nakoor border post, and then they are taken by helicopter to Vntok where they meet the then President of Namibia behind Hainkob and a discussion has had between doctor Chowke and the Namibian president and then they returned to the country. Now what is absolutely critical is that not only did the president instruct Bijohnny Chokie to go to Namibia to pass on this message, he also instructed Major General Wallyruder to a company Dr Chakia. Now, if the official version is true and accurate that this was completely unrelated to the parlor parlor break it, which is what
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all of these individuals have maintained, I find it highly coincidental that wally Ruder, and this is what the iPad report confirms. This is what is so crucial. Wally Ruder was conducting an investigation into the burglary. He was hunting down those suspects.
00:03:25
Speaker 3: EMANUELA.
00:03:25
Speaker 2: David was their number one suspect, and all of a sudden he's arrested in Namibia and both of these men two of President Sama Paula's closest allies most important functionaries traveled to that country within days of the arrest.
00:03:41
Speaker 1: In the course of iPad's investigations. How was the president's explanation for this conveyed to the iPad investigators. Did they speak to him and questioned him in the course of their work or was this an explanation that was perhaps, you know, for example, provided through a lawyer.
00:04:02
Speaker 2: No, so, as far as I can tell from this very short IPID report it's only fourteen pages, they did not actually directly interview the President or directly interview Major General Wally Rudder or for that matter, doctor Vajohnny Chouca, from what I can gather, from what it says, they picked up a whole lot of information from another investigation that was happening around the same time by the Public Protector, and it looks like the Public Protectors investigators shared a lot of documents with them, including affi davids and submissions that were made to the Public Protector. And it is my understanding that some of the IPEd investigators also sat in on the interviews that the Public Protector did with some of the SAP's officials.
00:04:41
Speaker 1: Involved if if you were to line up what and I asked that question for a reason because obviously you get an explanation, and then if you don't engage, as we've seen, I'm not suggesting that the engagement should be as exhausting as we're seen at the Madlanga Commission, but it does seen that under questioning, layers do get peeled back.
00:05:04
Speaker 3: Whether they get peeled back to your.
00:05:05
Speaker 1: Advantage or disadvantages is not always given or known, but it is an interesting process that that that that IPID has has undergone. If you were to single out what the most difficult questions the president might have to answer, Kyle Kohn would be what what?
00:05:25
Speaker 3: What are those?
00:05:26
Speaker 1: Because yeah, yeah, there's there's a lot, No, there's a.
00:05:31
Speaker 2: Lot, you know, And I think that this is a very complex sort of you know, series of events. There's a lot of moving parts, and with the effusion of time, there have been a lot of different versions on the record. But you know, if I had the opportunity to perhaps get the president under oath somewhere and ask him a question, I would stick to the simple things. When did you find out about the money? Well? What did you do about that? You know? Because we know in New three four is reported in the past that the president knew about the money being at his farm for forty four days before it was stolen. I would ask him, you know, directly about the so called security issue that couldn't be discussed over a telephone and necessitated his special on boar traveling during COVID lockdowns to another country. If you stick to those simple process like stories, I think that is where we would most often find the contradictions. And it's those contradictions that we've repeatedly pointed out. I mean the simple fact that you know. In twenty twenty two, I was just looking at the story just now, my com Jeff Wicks and I wrote a story about the fact that the burglary suspect that spent a lot more money than what people were saying were stolen. It's simple sort of process based questions like that. I think that are the most important.
00:06:41
Speaker 3: The word instructed.
00:06:44
Speaker 1: You put in quotes, and I assume that's because well the words before say, the report notes that President Rama pausa quote instructed Ruder to travel to No maybe with this political advisor, but Johnny Childcare is with whether you accept the premise or not the fact that he was involved in directing Major General Ruder to go with Vagini Chauke. Is that in and of itself problematic for you that he was more hands on involved in a process still under scrutiny than perhaps he may have indicated before.
00:07:25
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think I think that's that's critically important because it shows that he that you know, that is a central thrust of my article that I wrote today. It shows that the President was not just a casual observer. He didn't simply tell Major General Ruder about the breaking at his farm and then forget about it. You know. That is of course the president and his spokespeople will argue with me and say, but no, but we've given you a version of events. But I think that without detail, without real tangible information about what the supposed security threat was that mister Chalker had to go to Nimba for and what it related to and why now for you later, six years later, we can't speak about this at all. I think those you know, without that information, we are left in a void where the automatic and only logical explanation is that that trip was related to the Polo Parlot break in more specifically related to the arrest of Emmanuel Eller David and the investigation being run by Major General Ruder. And if the instruction from the President to his head of security and to his Special Envoy was go to Namibia and speak to the black president, then the security services there to make sure that this news doesn't reach, you know, back to South Africa and sort of embarrass me or cause me, you know, great political problems. If that is true, then the President was involved in a cover up. And that is the question that I most burningly want answered. I really do need. You know, South Africa I think deserves to understand what exactly happened with that trip to Namobia.
00:08:54
Speaker 1: Cayl Karen thank you his work on the story. You can pick it up on the News twenty side News twenty four. Once the IPID report was declassified, then gained access to it by filing a Promotion of Access to Information request with iPad. And these are the fruits of them getting the report firstly and going through it.
00:09:17
Speaker 3: Twenty two minutes past four