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Your Grace, you're great.
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I feel I've been remiss in my duties.
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I've given you meat and wine and music, but I haven't shown you the hospitality you deserve.
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My king has married and I owe my new queen a wedding gift.
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Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to podcast for everything related to Game of Thrones, house of the Dragon and the rest of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire universe.
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I'm Inua and I'm here today with my co-host, tony, and in this episode we're continuing our rewatch of Game of Thrones, season 3.
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And today, unfortunately, we're finally here.
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We're covering Episode 9, the Reigns of Castamere, also known as the Red Wedding episode.
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We have a lot to get into and we're all looking forward to it, or are anxiously awaiting our coverage, I guess, of the Red Wedding and remembering it all.
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But firstly, we just want to share some Westerosi news that we have from George's world.
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I guess that we have from George's world, I guess George R R Martin will actually be attending New York Comic Con on October 9th to introduce HBO's Game of Thrones spinoff, a Night of the Seven Kingdoms.
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There will be a panel on the show.
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George will be there, joined by showrunner Ira Parker and the show's stars Peter Clafly, who plays Dunk and Dexter, saul, and Cilla Blaise Egg.
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There's also a new photo of George on set of the show, or on set of the show.
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We'll be sure to share that on our Instagram at dancingwithunderscoredragons, in case you haven't seen it, and we just wanted to share that quick little update, since now we all have an estimate as to when we'll be getting updates on Eyes of the Seven Kingdoms.
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We're kind of left in the dark after the show was delayed.
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It was supposed to have premiered already, or it was supposed to premiere this fall, but it was delayed to 2026.
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But now we know get an update, which is going to be in October.
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So look forward to then for anything new from the world of A Song of Ice and Fire.
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And in the meantime let's recap the show and let's discuss the Red Wedding.
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Now the episode is known as the Red Wedding but, as I mentioned, the episode is actually titled the Reigns of Castamere.
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The episode is named after the song the Reigns of Castamere, which is the unofficial anthem of House Lannister and Tywin Lannister.
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It's like their in-world theme song, kind of not the official one on the soundtrack, of course and the song actually refers to the destruction of House Rain of Castamere after the rebellion against House Lannister.
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The song was heard in previous episodes, notably Blackwater and Dark Wings and Dark Words, and its backstory was explained in the previous episode, second Sons.
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We didn't note that in the previous episode, so we weren't like oh, they're talking about the reigns of Castamere, this is all.
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This is the title of the next episode and this is what the Red Wedding's all about, which is kind of funny.
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The episode premiered on June 2nd 2013 on HBO.
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It was written by David Benioff and Davey Weiss and directed by of the season, the last two episodes of season five and the first two episodes of season eight.
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So he directed the best two episodes of season eight.
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Exactly Now.
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We all know what's going to happen in this episode, but let's talk about the official premise of the episode.
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So here, rob presents himself to Walder Frey, edmure meets his bride, jon faces a harsh test, bran discovers a new gift, dario and Jorah debate and House Frey joins with House Tully.
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King's Landing and all of its associated characters and storylines do not appear in this episode at all.
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This makes it the first episode not to even have a single scene in King's Landing and it's the first episode of the series that doesn't feature a single Lannister.
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It's kind of like I needed a break from them, honestly, but they're there in spirit, unfortunately.
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So I was kind of dreading getting to this episode.
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I'll be honest, tony, like I have fun recording this podcast with you, I have fun watching the show with you, like rewatching it and discussing it with you you know regularly but I was dreading this moment, in all honesty, and my rewatch of the episode honestly was tough and I'm wondering how you found it.
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Honestly, revisiting the Red Wedding still hits like a gut punch and even though we know it's coming, it doesn't soften the blow.
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If anything, it makes it worse.
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You're watching the slow build of tension and you're seeing this fake warmth, the music creeping in and then it just explodes into chaos.
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And I mentioned to you before the recording that you know the episode.
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I think it's 52 minutes long and we don't get to the scene until like minute 46.
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So literally like the last four five minutes
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of the show is the chaos of the violence, the going back and forth from the dining hall to Aria, back and forth.
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That was all five minutes, but it felt like an eternity for those who are following for the first time.
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It's going.
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You don't know what's happening.
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At first you're obviously you're shocked, and then it's going back and forth.
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You don't know what's happening with Arya.
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But you know what?
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I have a plethora of notes to go through and I think you have the same, because you're the note queen.
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We'll leave this for the last bit of the episode because there's so much to cover.
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So let's just start with Daenerys, because her scenes were short and we'll just go from there there and then we'll give the listeners a little slow build up too.
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So just because it is a significant event for her kind of, but it's just we're so focused on what's going to happen that we just want to see everything related to the Red Wedding.
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So every time they switched back to Essos and Dany's story, I just felt a bit like okay, like maybe this could have waited for one more episode.
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But that's fine, it's fine.
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I'm never going to complain about seeing Dany.
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Yeah, I think that this, these scenes should have been in the next episode.
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I felt like this episode should have been focused just on Starks, just on Jon, bran, rickon, robb and Arya.
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That's it.
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No, sansa, she's at King's Landing, but I think even going to visit Sam for that one-minute scene felt, you know what.
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Let's stick to the twins beyond the wall with John and Bran, or actually south of the wall.
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They're not beyond anymore.
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So, yeah, I think that Dany scenes didn't fit.
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I mean, it's cool to see.
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Obviously I don't mind seeing her, but I think, since the next episode is a big one for her, uh, I think it would have worked a little bit better.
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Just add a few minutes to that finale and I think it would have flowed better.
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That's the word I was trying to say um, because everything that's happened to danny's storyline in this episode as well, it kind of happens off screen.
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We see like a bit of tension between dario and jorah and they're kind of like talking about yunkai and how to win I guess not win over the city, but I guess how to conquer it and defeat them and take over the city.
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For Dany and I honestly don't have much to say.
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They successfully do it, even though it was like a tough challenge for them.
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And Dany's leveling up, I guess, in her side quest of ruling over Slaver's Bay and stuff.
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So I don't like calling it a side quest, but it's the closest thing I can do.
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Her main goal is obviously to get to Westeros and she needed to do these things, which is also not really so.
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I just felt like okay, fine, you know.
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Like yeah, okay, not just whatever, but she did it.
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Okay, let's move on.
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You know what I mean.
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I love her, but like okay, she checked the box yeah, it's.
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She is decisive.
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It's a clever military move, but it's all handled off screen.
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I love Dani.
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I just want to get her storyline in this episode over with, because the others were just I don't know.
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They overshadowed Dani in this episode.
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Sorry, like Dani's action when it happens off screen it's, it's not waiting.
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Come on, you know what I mean.
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Like I can't.
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I can't call it a danny episode, even if I tried so yeah, that's why we're gonna move on.
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We're gonna go to sam and gilly really quick, not even like a 60 minute.
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60 minute, 60 second.
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Uh, he impresses gilly with the book learning of history.
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How do you know this like?
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So you read symbols and you know what?
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Are you a wizard?
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And it took me back to when he said did he say I want to be a wizard in season one?
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I think so.
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Oh my god they're on the top of the wall.
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He's on top of the wall, john, and something.
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He goes.
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I just I wanted to be a wizard, uh, so I I started laughing, uh, but she, she's more impressed by seeing the wall.
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Anyway, that, that was pretty much it yeah, I.
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I just wanted to to like say that.
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I just googled that really fast and it's that uh quote is accurate.
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John was opening up to sam and says I always wanted to be a ranger and john and then sam says I always wants to be a wizard it's really funny and I think you can see him kind of like chuck it at that, not because
Gilly's naive, but because like, yeah, like that's kind of, I think.
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I think he felt seen I don't know, I don't know over, like over, analyze it, but like that was, that was cute, that was a cute moment.
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And something to note as well is that Gilly makes a quick remark.
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She says something like oh, my dad always said that if anyone that sees the wall instantly dies.
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So I think that's just interesting to know that the Wildlings and Craster's people, everyone north of the wall, they have their own weird suspicions that don't really make sense about the wall and everything south.
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You know, the same way that the Southerners, I guess, see the north of the wall people a certain way and what they do and everything above the wall is like they see it in a certain way, like as a big danger.
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So do the northern or seats of the southerners.
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So, yeah, um, so let's move on from salmon glee, because that's uh it's, and I think we should just like move slightly like north or south, I guess, or like around that area and talk about bran and john, because their storylines like almost in this episode, which is insane.
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I completely forgot about this.
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So, talking about Bran first of all, I just want to start there.
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I think it's easier.
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And you know, what's even crazier is that it happens to Mor Stark.
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So you had Arya so close to her brother and her mother and, yeah, I completely forgot about that as well.
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Yeah, I wrote it down Like this was the episode of almost reunions Almost there was almost there, cause even like John and and and Sam, they're not too far apart.
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If you think about it geographically, they're in the same area.
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So you have John and Bran and Rakan, so like him and his siblings, or like cousins, I guess, and then you have John and sam and gilly as well, being you know like in the same vicinity still.
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So it's kind of insane.
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I'll say one last thing.
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One last thing about sam, or anybody in this world, is that you have to have an incredible memory because, like for me, if I was in this world and I would reading all these books, I would forget every little detail.
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And he's like, oh yeah, I know because I read this book.
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And how long did you read that book?
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How do you still know every little?
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You know what I mean.
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Like yeah, you gotta have that good memory to like I would be like, yeah, maybe it's in this, this castle, I don't know.
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Like let me get my notes out.
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Oh, oh, my battery's gone.
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I can't check it.
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Yeah, like I mean, I guess then you'd have like a different profession.
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That's why Sam's like a maester, right, because he has that mind, he knows he has that like memory bank.
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But yeah, moving on to Bran, who also, like has some mind powers, I guess, revealed or utilized in this episode.
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So before I get to that, we see that Bran and his group, trojan and Rakan and co, are in the area of Westeros called the Gift, and this was actually something we discussed when we talked about Dancing with Dragons, when we talked about House of the Dragon, I think which is like the Gift is the stretch of land south of the Wall which was gifted to the Night's Watch thousands of years ago by Bran and the Builder, and they kind of use that land for their needs, their needs, you know, for like farming and everything, and they don't really use it anymore.
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And they make a note of that because, um, like they kind of just don't really need that land for for their farming and all of that anymore.
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But it's uh noteworthy, I think they they do talk about it in, uh in house the dragon when they're talking about king jaharis and stuff.
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I am I'm pretty sure that that we talked about that at some point, and they talk about it as well in this episode too, saying that you know why don't people just live in this area of land, this stretch of land?
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There's no war here and you know you can farm on this land, and that's when they give us that quick Like this is the history lesson, I guess, just behind what they're talking about.
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Well, I think that Bran says oh, oh, yeah, he does and Rick was like oh yeah, oh, nan said they would use their skulls for to drink blood.
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And you see, osho like really you believe that?
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like kind of take shelter and rest.
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I guess there was like a storm, I think, and they were basically resting and keeping safe in an abandoned mill.
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And then actually like pause.
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I was going to go to John now, yeah, yeah yeah, like pause, let's talk about John.
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I was going to say that they're like hand in hand, so I think the scenes are happening at the same time Because, john, they'd want to attack the horse breeder for the night's watch yes and then all of a sudden the horse breeder escapes and he ends up at that same gift tower and that's how they almost have that reunion.
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Uh, but I do
want to say that this, this episode is, it was a test.
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It was the final test for John to see if he was a true like deserter of the night's watch.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And obviously he failed because he's, you know, he even despite his feelings for Egret, he ultimately chose to remain loyal to the night's watch, you know, leading to the you know the skirmish and him killing of um or.
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Or now john gives, he slaps his sword against rocks, giving a little subtle warning to the breeder and to the horses.
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So the horses, all of a sudden they start getting jumpy and kind of warned the breeder to like get out of there so I thought that was really clever it's kind of like something that we're waiting for as well, without realizing that we're waiting for it, with it being john's test of loyalty, like we know that he can't keep up this act for for forever, you know.
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You know that it's bound to to reach this kind of point where he has to kind of reveal himself as being loyal to the water, loyal to the wildlings, andgritte.
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So when it actually happens and he leaves them, we're like, oh, here it is, like here's the kind of like the moment we've been waiting for and we realize where that storyline is likely heading.
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And it's kind of, I guess it's kind of bittersweet, because you get that satisfaction and that relief, I guess, of knowing that Jon is still Jon and he's loyal to the Watch and he's that character that we know.
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But at the same time we're like, but Ygritte, like what's going to happen?
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And at this point we still see Tormund and the others as like villains, right, so we're not rooting for them, we don't know, like, where their storylines are going to end up.
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So it just feels a bit like.
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I don't know disbelief yeah she's like, she can't, like, she actually is shocked that he is still, you know, a member of the night's watch, essentially like she thought, oh, he's my man and he's gonna, he's for me, he's never gonna leave me and then her, her face.
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It is a betrayal like her face and you know it's, and he's a star to the bone.
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He's too loyal, he cannot.
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Yeah, he loves her, but he has an oath that he cannot.
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Well, he broke the oath anyway, but you know what I mean.
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Yeah, I know, I know and I think that like that anger that we see in her is the fact that she's angry at his betrayal.
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But also, I can you can see it in her face that she's kind of angry at herself because she was warned against him.
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You know, like they kept telling her in the show like don't trust him, he's not going to be loyal to us and she's the only one that believed in him and you could kind of see that she feels like she betrayed her own people.
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But when john leaves them it's kind of it's it's heartbreaking to see, even though it's like kind of really fast.
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You can see it's all on rose leslie's face, she's an amazing actress she was seduced by the curls, by the eyes come on.
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I think that.
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I don't think it's just that.
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Come on, give her some credits, uh yeah, is there any guy who looks like that in in the?
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Any wildling that looks like john?
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sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
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Oh, yeah, true, when you say wildling, fine, when you said first you said any guy in the world, he's saying any guy in the world with john's curls.
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And then you were giving like, giving me a like, I don't know, like a lecture, for is it saying that rob looked glorious or something majestic once, and you're saying no one looks like it's harrington in the entire world.
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Come on, I'm joking now.
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Um, uh, but yeah, uh, they both look like amazing, but anyways.
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So, yeah, I'm glad to see that from from john, and we actually also.
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We didn't talk about it before, but him killing oral is kind of like a significant moment for him as well, because, yes, he's protecting himself, but at the same time, we didn't see john really kill anyone other than than corin, right and with core, and it was kind of like he was doing his duty.
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Here it's self-defense, and I think that definitely leaves an impact, because it's not just, you know, fulfilling his duty and doing kind of the right thing.
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Killing Corrin was the right thing he was told to do.
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That, you know, here it's kind of like something that he's doing of his own free will and he, like we can see him during the battle grappling with is this what I think to do or not?
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And then he eventually like, just like you can see it in his eyes, and then he just kills him and knows that this is this.
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Is that, I think?
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Because he's protecting himself like come on and I think saving the watch he I don't think there's any grappling.
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He, when he shoves that sword into him, he gives him like yeah, you were right.
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Like oh, he did say that.
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He did say that he was like you, were always right about me and he, he looked satisfied, looking.
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I don't think I.
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I think killing other people yeah, maybe torment would would have been, uh, he would have thought twice, but not against this guy.
00:18:38.981 --> 00:18:40.926
He was ready to to kill this guy.
00:18:40.926 --> 00:18:45.477
Um, this, this also he's had enough yeah, he's had enough.
00:18:45.477 --> 00:18:52.821
You think about this episode, we always think about, you know the last five minutes, but this is a massive turning point in brand's arc.
00:18:53.103 --> 00:19:02.769
Like yeah, I was gonna say that as well now he has this incredible, like mystical power that he can wield and like warg into humans, because that's never been done before.
00:19:02.769 --> 00:19:14.163
I kind of got a flashback to not a flashback when I saw him working too I guess you mean like you're remembering what happens to hodor rather than his powers.
00:19:14.384 --> 00:19:18.737
Yeah okay, I thought you meant about the, the working ability this is.
00:19:19.219 --> 00:19:20.240
It's also sad.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.163
You know what?
00:19:21.202 --> 00:19:28.325
this is the last time he'll see Rickon yeah, yeah, that's what I'm gonna say as well, like, like it's, it's.
00:19:28.325 --> 00:19:48.315
You don't realize how sad this episode really really is, because you have the John and Ygritte's like uh, separation, and you have the the Brian and Rickon separation you have, and then you have the almost three reunions with John and Brian and and Rickon as well, and the almost reunion at the at the red wedding, and then you have the almost reunions with Jon and Bran and Rurik Khan as well, and the almost reunion at the Red Wedding, and then you have the Red Wedding.
00:19:48.315 --> 00:19:51.048
So it's like an episode of reunions and separations.
00:19:51.048 --> 00:19:59.843
You know it's so sad it's so it's like that's bad, it's just it's a heartbreaking episode, as you said.
00:19:59.843 --> 00:20:02.346
Like back to Bran, because this is where their stories kind of merge.
00:20:02.346 --> 00:20:12.702
Outside that tower we see the man that Jon saved kind of like run power flex, like no, he wasn't running, he was on like a horse thing right, a horse thing.
00:20:12.702 --> 00:20:17.205
He was on like some sort of animal and he was safe.
00:20:17.205 --> 00:20:18.911
Some horse thing.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:20.782
Some horse thing.
00:20:20.782 --> 00:20:22.662
Every horse is now some horse thing.
00:20:22.662 --> 00:20:38.512
But then, yeah, bran kind of enters the mind of Summer and works into him to save Jon, which is also like a really good moment, and I wish we saw even though we do, as you said, mention that we see the working into Hodor in season six.
00:20:38.512 --> 00:20:42.336
I don't think that we see enough of the working, because it is present in the books, isn't it?
00:20:42.336 --> 00:20:44.097
It's so, it's.
00:20:44.097 --> 00:20:49.146
It's not just like some rare event that occurs, it's, it's a part of the book.
00:20:49.227 --> 00:20:54.006
So yeah and remember this is a rare moment all the starks are able to do it.
00:20:54.446 --> 00:20:57.155
I was thinking about when john's fighting.
00:20:57.155 --> 00:20:59.401
Did he not notice that those are two dire wolves?
00:20:59.401 --> 00:21:16.727
Oh my god, you're right wait like all of a sudden, like he hasn't seen summer and shaggy wolf since he left to the wall and they weren't as big, obviously, because you know how huge they are, but he could have been like, wait a minute, what?
00:21:16.727 --> 00:21:18.942
What are these dire wolves just showing up all of a sudden?
00:21:19.564 --> 00:21:20.508
I mean, yeah, like that.
00:21:20.508 --> 00:21:23.601
I think that's the only explanation that we can, john not noticing them.
00:21:23.601 --> 00:21:27.413
It's just probably because he was fighting for his life, otherwise we can consider it a plot hole.
00:21:28.358 --> 00:21:36.689
Yeah, and it's something that we, as fans, we're so desperate for that Stark reunion, right, and we're like, okay, this is it, he's out there.
00:21:37.201 --> 00:22:00.028
And then we don't get a Stark reunion until season six when Sansa shows up at the maids watch or castle black I was looking into this episode and I actually found like a piece of information that I kind of forgot about, like the canon, the world of game of thrones, it's when you mentioned it as well, when they mentioned, um, old nan, hodor was a bit sad about that.
00:22:00.028 --> 00:22:32.268
They were like oh, the reason why, like they, they made hodor like a bit obsessed, and during the scene, the mentioning of old nan is because in the canon hodor is old nan's great grandson and I completely forgot that, I didn't know, and something else that I kind of thought was like a like just another note about this scene, like the last notes I want to say, is that when bran like basically says, like you know, we have to separate, me and recon have to separate, I think that it's like when we actually see Bran maturing, because he obviously takes that decision, because he knows that as the last two heirs of Winterfell, it might be safer for them if they're not together.
00:22:32.268 --> 00:22:38.923
And sure, it probably wasn't the wisest decision because of where Rikon ends up and he ends up with the Boltons and everything later on.
00:22:38.923 --> 00:22:46.157
But at the end of the day, I think that it came from a place of maturity for Bran where he realizes this because he's not just a kid anymore.
00:22:46.157 --> 00:22:47.019
You know what I mean.
00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:49.429
He's not just this kid that's being like, oh, me and my brother have to stay together.
00:22:49.429 --> 00:23:10.299
He actually sees the dangers of the world during this moment and is like, no, it probably isn't our best interest for us not to be in the same place at the same time, because we are two valuable targets and we're both heirs to Winterfell,
and I don't know if I'm going to survive this because especially he's thinking this because of his own powers and it might be safest to keep Rickon in a distant space.
00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:19.173
So I just want to note that this is probably a significant another why, another reason why it's a significant moment for Bran.
00:23:19.173 --> 00:23:24.022
But yeah, so let's move on to another dear, dear Stark that we have in this episode, and that's Arya.
00:23:24.723 --> 00:23:31.194
Arya has a brief scene in the beginning, like kind of separate from everybody else, where she and the Hound are obviously on their way to the Twins.
00:23:31.194 --> 00:23:47.039
He's going to ransom her off to her mom and her brother and they make it just outside the Twins like they're in the Riverlands area and like the Hound, as he does, gets into like a thing with a guy, like they're just arguing and he was about to kill him.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:51.431
And then Arya says I wrote it down because I love this scene.
00:23:51.431 --> 00:23:53.207
This was like a small moment, but I loved it.
00:23:53.207 --> 00:23:54.885
She says don't kill him.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:59.872
You're so dangerous, arya, saying scary things to little girls, killing little boys and old people.
00:23:59.872 --> 00:24:01.666
A real hard man you are.
00:24:01.666 --> 00:24:12.563
And I just love that scene because no one calls out the hound like that ever, you know, and it's like she's belittling him, being like yeah, you're, you're, you're, you think you're, you're scary.
00:24:12.563 --> 00:24:15.492
Just because you, you target like what?
00:24:15.492 --> 00:24:18.623
Little girls and little boys and old people like those are easy targets.
00:24:18.623 --> 00:24:22.391
You're not a strong, hard man, scary warrior.
00:24:22.391 --> 00:24:26.423
If your targets are children and old people, you're a loser, you know.
00:24:26.423 --> 00:24:29.531
And I love that because no one says that to the house.
00:24:29.531 --> 00:24:34.392
Everyone always looks at him with fear and with loathing, you know, and no one really likes him.
00:24:34.392 --> 00:24:35.784
And she's just like you think.
00:24:35.784 --> 00:24:36.747
You think you're so tough.
00:24:36.747 --> 00:24:40.387
If you're so tough, why are your targets like people that are so helpless?
00:24:40.387 --> 00:24:40.930
Prove yourself.
00:24:45.801 --> 00:24:47.387
And I love that because only Arya would say that.
00:24:47.387 --> 00:24:47.890
Only Arya would do that.
00:24:47.890 --> 00:24:54.596
And even when he says something like he defends himself, like, even though it wasn't in a real good way, she was like you're wrong, I know a real killer, you're nothing, she's like that.
00:24:54.596 --> 00:24:59.847
She he'd kill you with his finger and uh, I just loved it so much it was.
00:24:59.847 --> 00:25:01.790
It was, it was a cool scene.
00:25:01.790 --> 00:25:04.685
And then I don't know we're going to talk about what's.
00:25:04.685
--> 00:25:06.083
I'm going to leave that until the end of the episode.
00:25:06.083 --> 00:25:10.587
I hope I remember, because then I was, I was going to go completely different, or I'll just say it now because I don't gonna forget.
00:25:10.587 --> 00:25:18.583
Do you think if the hound um made it the day before before, like, and gave Arya up to them, would they have killed Arya as well?
00:25:20.512 --> 00:25:26.558
I don't think Arya would have been, because I didn't see any children there at the wedding.
00:25:26.619 --> 00:25:30.278
But that's the thing they killed his unborn baby.
00:25:31.652 --> 00:25:38.122
Yeah, they wouldn't have had any issue killing her, because if they're murdering a pregnant woman, yeah, exactly.
00:25:38.122 --> 00:25:40.096
Yeah, so she would have been killed.
00:25:40.919 --> 00:25:46.113
Okay, before we say this, pause on the what ifs, listen and talk about more when the wedding actually happens.
00:25:46.113 --> 00:25:53.050
Because I don't want to say something about aria as well, because we get two scenes of them before the red wedding, the second time we see them interact for the red wedding.
00:25:53.050 --> 00:25:54.173
Um, the hound and aria.
00:25:54.173 --> 00:25:56.818
Um, we see aria.
00:25:56.818 --> 00:25:57.740
She looks hopeful.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:20.201
I read it as her being hopeful when she sees the twins what I see in her eyes, I see is hope, feeling that okay, I'm so close I've been a part of from my family for I guess I don't know what's the timeline here at least a year and a plus, right yeah, yeah so I I think her looking to the twins and seeing that there's my family, I'm safe.
00:26:20.201 --> 00:26:24.678
Finally, when you can act with your eyes, you are a very good actor.
00:26:24.678 --> 00:26:25.540
Yeah.
00:26:25.601 --> 00:26:37.759
You know when people can just tell you what they're feeling, which is the look on their face and how their eyes are moving, that's just a sign of a great actor and she's a very good actor, actress, actor.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:56.298
The next time we see her, she's they're going, they're trying to get into the twins and basically they lock down because we have the bedding ceremony, right, actually, let's go to when they arrive at the twins.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:26:59.089
That's actually the first episode.
00:26:59.089 --> 00:27:03.156
Even before that, there's a scene between Rob and Kat before they arrive.
00:27:03.571 --> 00:27:10.603
There's the first first scene, this first scene with Walder Frey, where Rob is apologizing.
00:27:10.603 --> 00:27:13.941
First of all, I wouldn't have apologized in front of everybody.
00:27:13.941 --> 00:27:19.570
I would have said I need to speak with your daughters in private and apologize Because I don't know.
00:27:19.570 --> 00:27:23.757
I felt like it made him look a little weak to apologize in front of everybody.
00:27:23.757 --> 00:27:28.904
The reason why I say that is because Walder Frey is so snarky and so curmudgeon.
00:27:28.904 --> 00:27:35.180
What he says about Talisa is something that could have had his tongue removed.
00:27:35.180 --> 00:27:36.142
Yeah.
00:27:37.042 --> 00:27:39.375
Any other king and you know, you can see.
00:27:39.375 --> 00:27:40.759
You know what I'm talking about, right.
00:27:41.090 --> 00:27:44.820
Like oh, I would have broken 50-0s for you and your body and this.
00:27:44.820 --> 00:27:48.421
And it's just like right, then and there, rob needed to do something.
00:27:48.421 --> 00:27:54.135
He can't have this guy talk to you or your queen like that, so that really pissed me off.
00:27:54.135 --> 00:27:59.038
That's another moment of like, rob, you didn't do anything Like is it really that important?
00:27:59.038 --> 00:28:01.031
And I go back to why didn't you just go to Renly?
00:28:01.031 --> 00:28:03.013
Why didn't you just go to Renly?
00:28:03.013 --> 00:28:05.977
Why didn't you just go to Stannis?
00:28:05.977 --> 00:28:07.338
Here, I don't care.
00:28:07.338 --> 00:28:08.700
I don't want to be the king of the north.
00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:09.902
Let's help each other out.
00:28:09.942 --> 00:28:13.185
Stannis was the real, real missed opportunity.
00:28:13.185 --> 00:28:22.925
I think for Rob that was horrible, and Edmure is the big mistake in all this as well, because if it wasn't for him, it would have been all okay.
00:28:22.925 --> 00:28:24.646
Stannis probably would have been on the throne.
00:28:24.646 --> 00:28:33.617
As we said Again, if you want to know the context behind that, you have to go all the way back to our previous episodes and be up to date on our podcast, especially the Battle of Blackwater episode.
00:28:33.637 --> 00:28:46.452
But anyways, I'm sorry, but then you have Walder introducing like 10 of his daughters and granddaughters, and not their fault, they're not you, you know.
00:28:46.452 --> 00:28:50.767
Quote unquote game of thrones, beautiful, like marjorie and cersei and all those daenerys, it's not.
00:28:50.767 --> 00:28:51.388
You know what I mean.
00:28:51.388 --> 00:28:58.349
So it's kind of like they all have weird names wilda, juanina or something some kind of weird.
00:29:01.917 --> 00:29:29.561
And uh, and mirs was like his face is so upset oh, I know, I know, but like, then he ends up getting like, he ends up marrying one of the prettiest girls there, right, like I forgot and I think that's totally a dig on rob he he oh, yeah, true, true he purposely did not have her there in the beginning, so the one that he unveiled her he'd be like see what you missed.
00:29:29.970 --> 00:29:30.855
You could have this.
00:29:30.855 --> 00:29:46.675
I'm going to be all over the place, but there's a moment where Catlin is talking to the Blackfish and he's like this man complained all through the King's Road, he was moping and all that, and all of a sudden he's there having having a great time, because now he has a beautiful bride.
00:29:46.675 --> 00:29:48.419
Everything is
forgiven.
00:29:50.582 --> 00:29:51.503
Yeah, I want to wait.
00:29:51.503 --> 00:29:52.644
I want to before I forget.
00:29:52.644 --> 00:29:56.701
I want to make a note about what you said about Rob's apology.
00:29:56.701 --> 00:30:00.997
Like I completely understand what you're coming from, where you're coming from and being like it is weak.
00:30:00.997 --> 00:30:12.419
I think I just want to say that for rob I think in his mind he was probably like apologizing in front of everybody is the noble thing to do, because he never publicly like acknowledged what he did.
00:30:12.558 --> 00:30:26.722
You know what I mean so I think that this is him thinking I'm gonna say that it was in the name of love and then this is going to absolve me because everybody will understand the power of the love and and I apologized, so it's going to resonate and everybody's going to.
00:30:26.722 --> 00:30:33.796
You know, I don't think he sees this weakness and I I don't necessarily see it as weakness, but I do think that he should have done something.
00:30:33.796 --> 00:30:42.355
When Walder Frey, like I, insulted his wife and Catherine stopped him because he was going to say something he was going to he was he moved before that?
00:30:47.849 --> 00:30:59.952
I will say this I kind of understood where he was coming from, because it was like a public acknowledgement and being like it was a very yes, I don't know apology and it was very nice and I think it made them feel a little better, but I just think it could have been done in private we mentioned this a couple of episodes ago his whole thing.
00:30:59.992 --> 00:31:06.190
Suddenly to like get the, to get casterly rock to show that taiwan is, is not invincible.
00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:09.397
That's such a dumb side quest like that, come on like.
00:31:09.397 --> 00:31:11.241
That's not what you're fighting for.
00:31:11.241 --> 00:31:15.445
That's why rob lost his, his army, because that's not what they're fighting like.
00:31:15.445 --> 00:31:20.829
Why, just to show a force, just to show that you're strong and he's weak, that's, that's not serving your best interest.
00:31:20.829 --> 00:31:28.723
That's not fighting for your family, that's not fighting for your land, that's just trying to to, I don't know, boost, boost your own ego and destroy another man's ego.
00:31:28.723 --> 00:31:32.416
That has no real like um gain for you.
00:31:32.416 --> 00:31:33.159
You know what I mean.
00:31:33.179 --> 00:31:46.720
Like that, that's just a bad side quest and also caitlin saying, uh, she does tell him, look, if we get caught here, we're between the sea and and their army will be dead, which should have been a red flag.
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:48.022
Let's not do it.
00:31:48.022 --> 00:31:53.174
Let's just focus on what we need to do.
00:31:53.174 --> 00:32:09.184
Let's try to salvage any support that we lost or try to regain the support, but no, let's do like you said the side quest that's going to make us go through this guy that we spurned or, you know, offended by breaking the oath.
00:32:09.184 --> 00:32:10.873
You're rewatching this for the.
00:32:10.873 --> 00:32:16.923
I don't know how many times, but if you're watching it for the first time, you're like well, maybe they're going to get away with it.
00:32:16.923 --> 00:32:35.582
I think you know, for now he had to endure some insults to his queen, but when you get to the wedding part, people are having fun, they're chatting they're drinking You're like, okay, well, maybe, but then in the pit of your stomach you're like well, this is a penultimate episode.
00:32:36.611 --> 00:32:38.999
You know what happens in season one Ned dies.
00:32:38.999 --> 00:32:46.346
Season two is Blackwater and something has to happen, right, because this is a tradition.
00:32:46.386 --> 00:32:56.377
Now the first game of thrones and people were waiting for something, because the warging with that that's not a big enough twist for us to be like, oh yeah, that's a great episode.
00:32:56.377 --> 00:32:57.840
Something has to, yeah.
00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:26.345
And I guess when one you know you have you, this music starts playing and then you realize something's wrong because you see Catlin's face you heard the story about the song from the previous episode you feel like, ok, well, there's no Lannisters here, but we're listening to their quote theme song or their revenge song.
00:33:26.345 --> 00:33:43.943
We put the audio up in the beginning of the episode of you know, they close the doors, they have the bedding ceremony, which, funny enough, we talked about the bedding ceremony in the last episode because Tyrion and Sansa was married and they kind of show it here.
00:33:43.943 --> 00:33:46.018
And here's what I saw.
00:33:46.018 --> 00:33:54.023
I saw the bride frightened about what was happening and I saw the groom excited because all these women are touching him.
00:33:54.023 --> 00:33:55.690
You know what I mean.
00:33:55.690 --> 00:34:00.380
So you have the bride being fondled by all these drunk men.
00:34:00.380 --> 00:34:02.223
And then you have the guy.
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.029
So it's kind of a weird tradition.
00:34:05.029 --> 00:34:07.174
Even to us it's like what the heck is going on here?
00:34:07.174 --> 00:34:10.262
Yeah you know to, yeah, you know what.
00:34:10.262 --> 00:34:11.231
That's just the way it is.
00:34:11.231 --> 00:34:12.353
It's true, like who cares?
00:34:12.635 --> 00:34:37.320
right, even ramsay bolton's like, oh, you should have, or you had to endure that in your wedding, and then she says something that ned forbade it right like he didn't want to have to break somebody's jaw on his wedding night, which, yeah, that was just for the show, and I think in the book it does mention that they did have a bedding ceremony, and I think that's just for the show arc, right, or?
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:37.521
did.
00:34:37.521 --> 00:34:40.293
Yeah, I just want to mention tony.
00:34:40.293
--> 00:34:43.141
You said, uh, ramsay bolton it's not Ramsey.
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:44.824
Oh sorry um Rose Bolton.
00:34:44.824 --> 00:34:45.768
Yeah, because.
00:34:46.469 --> 00:34:48.655
I was a bit like like we haven't seen it.
00:34:48.655 --> 00:34:51.253
We haven't really like, well, we have seen it but we haven't really like.
00:34:51.253 --> 00:34:52.797
You know it's not.
00:34:52.797 --> 00:34:56.047
Um, yeah, I think it does happen in the book.
00:34:56.047 --> 00:34:58.117
I remember something like that being mentioned.
00:34:58.157 --> 00:35:27.894
For sure, when I listen to the audiobook for for a storm of sorts, um, and yeah, when you mentioned that, like you're thinking, oh, it's like it might get away, when you're wondering, I, I don't know because I, we're gonna get to this, but I was always wondering how people reacted to the red wedding for the first time and, um, that's what we're gonna get to eventually, other people's reactions, but it doesn't seem like that's where the show is, like that's what's Obviously, who would expect the slaughter, you know, as you said, like they closed the doors.
00:35:27.894 --> 00:35:30.461
It seems normal, nothing's going wrong.
00:35:30.461 --> 00:35:46.152
Even at the beginning of this podcast episode, when you played the scene, like the music is not sad, like before it transitions into like the eerie music, you know, like the Reigns of Castamere and stuff, it was very like fine, it was normal.
00:35:46.152 --> 00:35:47.114
It sounds like jolly.
00:35:47.114 --> 00:35:49.438
Like who would expect that red episode, that the red?
00:35:49.458 --> 00:35:55.701
wedding would start with that music unless you're very, very clever and you're like wait a minute.
00:35:55.701 --> 00:36:04.335
Cersei's talked about the reigns of castamere and the origins and now I just saw on the caption and said reigns of castamere, music.
00:36:04.335 --> 00:36:05.498
What's gonna happen?
00:36:05.498 --> 00:36:12.612
Imagine imagine like if you could put two into it, but I don't think people are doing that, and it's just a funny thing that this.
00:36:12.612 --> 00:36:23.902
What makes for me like okay, now the violence starts, and then you get something that probably never was shown on tv is a pregnant woman being stabbed repeatedly.
00:36:24.121 --> 00:36:25.525
Yeah, in the belly.
00:36:26.050 --> 00:36:27.998
In the belly, like straight on the belly.
00:36:27.998 --> 00:36:35.923
What makes the violence so effective and disturbing is how suddenly it unfolds.
00:36:35.923 --> 00:36:47.253
So one moment there's music and, like I said, there's toast, and then next, boom, pregnant Talista is being stabbed and Rob and Catn are surrounded by smiling killers.
00:36:47.253 --> 00:36:54.193
So it's not like stylized violence, it's raw, it's ugly, it's freaking, like terrifying, you don't know what to do.
00:36:54.193 --> 00:36:56.277
The camera doesn't flinch, is right there.
00:36:56.277 --> 00:36:57.842
It doesn't glamorize.
00:36:57.842 --> 00:37:08.023
It, instead of like you're trapped and it within the audience, like you, you're helpless because you can't believe that this is happening to your favorite characters, the Starks.
00:37:08.023 --> 00:37:10.719
Like how much can this family endure?
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:13.217
How much pain and suffering?
00:37:13.217 --> 00:37:13.639
Really?
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.778
Why do you, george, why do you hate this family so much?
00:37:18.050 --> 00:37:20.076
Like we thought these were the heroes.
00:37:20.076 --> 00:37:26.092
Yeah, I think you have it Like a quote from George where he talks about why he had to do it like he.
00:37:26.092 --> 00:37:33.257
Like he kind of killed them because, not because he loved them, but because it's something that he had to do despite the fact that he loved them so much.
00:37:33.257 --> 00:37:35.873
Do you have that quote from him when he talked?
00:37:35.893 --> 00:37:36.012
about?
00:37:36.012 --> 00:37:47.474
Yeah, I think he did a um interview with entertainment weekly in 2013 and they asked him how early in the process of writing the book series did you know you were going to kill off Robin Catlin?
00:37:47.474 --> 00:37:53.235
He replied, I quote I knew it almost from the beginning, not the first day, but very soon.
00:37:53.235 --> 00:37:56.731
I've said in many interviews that I like fiction to be unpredictable.
00:37:56.731 --> 00:37:59.777
I like there to be considerable suspense.
00:37:59.777 --> 00:38:02.972
I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people.
00:38:02.972 --> 00:38:08.858
I killed Ned because everybody thinks he's the hero, but then he'll somehow get out of it.
00:38:08.858 --> 00:38:16.297
The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father, and everybody's going to expect that.
00:38:16.297 --> 00:38:20.601
So immediately quote killing Rob became the next thing I had to do.
00:38:21.931 --> 00:38:22.494
I get him.
00:38:22.494 --> 00:38:31.182
But hearing him phrase it in that way is kind of like bringing back war flashbacks, of being like I'm gonna do this to subvert expectations from dan and dave.
00:38:31.182 --> 00:38:33.655
You know, when they when they said that about season eight.
00:38:33.655 --> 00:38:41.436
But yeah, like it works with with george, because it's doing something different, it's taking in like something.
00:38:41.436 --> 00:38:47.726
I mean it's actually planning something and reworking it.
00:38:47.726 --> 00:38:53.672
You know, it's not just letting go of an entire character arc overnight, so it's different.
00:38:53.672 --> 00:39:15.418
But it did remind me, unfortunately, of the trauma of Dan and Dave's quote being like we're going to have Danny do this to subvert expectations at the last minute because she wouldn't see the thing coming like oh anyways, um, but I have a no, sorry, I have another quote from george that says when the book came out storm of
swords, I got a tremendous reaction to it.
00:39:15.438 --> 00:39:26.552
I got angry letters that said I will never read your work again and the tv show version is 13 years later and I knew, having been through it once, we would get the similar big reaction.
00:39:26.552 --> 00:39:41.536
And he actually came out in conan, uh, I think a few months after, uh, the the show aired and conan showed him a little montage of people yeah, yeah people reacting to the red wedding and george was giddy he goes.
00:39:41.775 --> 00:39:53.054
Well, those people who were recording are the people who read the book, so they wanted to see the reaction and that's how kind of like before that reactions to anything was not a thing like that.
00:39:53.596 --> 00:39:56.362
That was kind of like the first thing of people like like.
00:39:56.663 --> 00:39:58.713
I've showed you the reaction.
00:39:58.713 --> 00:40:03.782
When I recorded my son, I sent you the seven minute video and he's just kind of like.
00:40:03.782 --> 00:40:08.358
If you see him he's like in disbelief, he goes what?
00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:10.423
and he felt so betrayed.
00:40:10.423 --> 00:40:14.976
To his credit, he kept watching immediately like he wanted to watch the next episode.
00:40:14.976 --> 00:40:28.304
But we did put out a quick little prompt to ask people their reactions or they had any questions, and I did get three people who basically said the same thing.
00:40:28.304 --> 00:40:51.244
So let me just say so I have johnboyltgmoviesrus underscore and then travelenthusiast with similar stories, saying that I was traumatized and I quit the show but eventually went back to it, which is something that a lot of people did after Jon Snow's death, which was my son.
00:40:51.309 --> 00:40:52.650
My son had the same reaction.
00:40:52.650 --> 00:40:56.420
He's like I'm done with the show because he after Rob, it was John.
00:40:56.420 --> 00:41:04.423
So I had to pretty much convince him to say hey, you know, I didn't say hey, by the way, just wait two more episodes You'll be good.
00:41:04.423 --> 00:41:10.733
I kind of say no, no, it's gonna get good, don't worry about it.
00:41:10.733 --> 00:41:11.315
And he went back.
00:41:11.315 --> 00:41:24.376
But so I'm assuming I've seen so many different reactions I went to youtube and I typed in reactions and just people just bawling and crying and and I get it, because it's such a shocking thing yeah, it is, it is.
00:41:24.615 --> 00:41:28.635
I mean, even re-watching it, the episode, I was like I can't believe that.
00:41:28.635 --> 00:41:35.875
It still feels shocking seeing the way it unfolds, because first you have to listen, then you have Rob, and then Rob almost makes it.
00:41:35.875 --> 00:41:39.451
You know like you feel like, oh, there's still some hope, maybe you know.
00:41:39.451 --> 00:41:47.304
And then Kat and oh, maybe Kat's bargaining wouldn't work now, but yeah, we kept up that question.
00:41:49.693 --> 00:41:56.445
And now, like the Red Wedding is a term that is used to say, is it Red Wedding X?
00:41:56.445 --> 00:41:57.612
Like we talked about that?
00:41:57.713 --> 00:41:59.018
for House of the Dragon.
00:41:59.038 --> 00:42:01.876
House of the Dragon yeah, and we do it for other shows.
00:42:01.876 --> 00:42:03.556
Oh, is this violence or shocking?
00:42:03.556 --> 00:42:04.436
Is it like the Red Wedding, because it's so?
00:42:04.436 --> 00:42:04.748
Do for other shows.
00:42:04.748 --> 00:42:05.009
Oh, is this violence or shocking?
00:42:05.009 --> 00:42:05.054
Is it?
00:42:05.054 --> 00:42:12.414
Is it like the red wedding, because it's so yeah, you know what I mean like there's no other scene in tv history that comes close to it that's true.
00:42:13.097 --> 00:42:14.679
Um, yeah, that is true.
00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:17.172
I feel like it's it's applicable across all of pop culture.
00:42:17.172 --> 00:42:34.809
Now, um, and I feel like, also, you also might have people trying to replicate that kind of hype and buzz being like we want something as shocking as the red wedding because that was, you know, that changed everything for, for, for game of thrones, and it was like the most shocking still talked about event in game of thrones.
00:42:34.809 --> 00:42:38.699
People want that event in their, in their shows.
00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:39.181
You know what I mean.
00:42:39.181 --> 00:42:40.371
Like, no matter what it is.
00:42:40.371 --> 00:42:46.715
So, um, I think that's behind the scenes with, like, critters used to have people trying to emulate what the red wedding created.
00:42:46.715 --> 00:42:50.612
Um, but I do want to mention the questions or like the stories that I got from people.
00:42:51.333 --> 00:42:56.550
Um, so one of my best friends, uh, she says I went to my mom's room sobbing.
00:42:56.550 --> 00:42:58.273
She says did someone die?
00:42:58.273 --> 00:42:59.474
I told her everyone did.
00:42:59.474 --> 00:43:12.217
And, uh, another one of my best friends, um, she says my brother knew rob stark was a favorite of mine and would jokingly say wait until the red wedding episode, you will love it.
00:43:12.217 --> 00:43:21.594
And she didn't say this in the the message that she sent me, but I remember her telling me that when, when he told her oh wait, until his episode in the red wedding, you know.
00:43:21.896 --> 00:43:25.016
And then they kept mentioning a wedding and edmure's wedding and I don't know.
00:43:25.016 --> 00:43:26.764
She was like there's kept mentioning a wedding and Edmure's wedding and I don't know.
00:43:26.764 --> 00:43:27.628
She was like there's going to be a wedding.
00:43:27.628 --> 00:43:29.577
Like oh my God, like she was so happy about it.
00:43:29.577 --> 00:43:34.458
I remember her telling me that in person and she was like I was so naive to believe him.
00:43:34.458 --> 00:43:38.831
And she says call me and like leave me anonymous, slash H.
00:43:38.831 --> 00:43:42.434
And then someone else said I was so mad that I
stopped watching.
00:43:42.434 --> 00:43:44.936
And then, when they cast him in the Cinderella movie, I continued.
00:43:45.576 --> 00:43:46.777
Let me know Richard Madden.
00:43:47.237 --> 00:43:48.518
So that was a nice like.
00:43:48.518 --> 00:43:51.159
At least that got you back to Game of Thrones.
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.320
And did we ever talk about our reaction?
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:54.782
Like Tony, you were a book reader first.
00:43:54.782 --> 00:43:57.043
Like, did you ever mention how you reacted when you read the?
00:43:57.083 --> 00:43:57.222
book.
00:43:57.222 --> 00:44:03.646
Yeah, so I, like I said, I read after I watched season.
00:44:03.646 --> 00:44:12.014
I read the first book, I watched season one, then I read all the books before season two.
00:44:12.014 --> 00:44:13.556
So by the time I read it I was waiting for it.
00:44:13.556 --> 00:44:24.692
But I think I've mentioned this a couple of times when reading this chapter it's the only time I've ever stood up.
00:44:24.711 --> 00:44:28.815
Oh yeah, you said that While reading and I go what, wait, what, what Like?
00:44:28.815 --> 00:44:40.286
It's so insane Like I couldn't believe what was going on, and because there's so much like the red wedding, the purple wedding, it's all like so close together.
00:44:40.826 --> 00:44:54.590
Yeah, yeah yeah, in the third book and and I, I was just right then and there I go, okay, so everybody's up for grabs, obviously, like who's gonna survive, who's gonna like is denarius gonna be killed?
00:44:54.590 --> 00:45:11.052
Now, like it's how the dragons, you know like your mind starts to wander, like who's who's actually gonna be on the iron throne, because there's no way anybody can go and that's what makes the book so good.
00:45:11.072 --> 00:45:21.204
That's completely true, and I wish that I had the book experience first, but I didn't, so I obviously had the show one first and I don't really remember much of how I reacted.
00:45:21.204 --> 00:45:25.610
Funnily enough, it's been.
00:45:25.610 --> 00:45:28.896
I think I watched it like 11 years ago, 2014.
00:45:28.896 --> 00:45:29.335
I loved Rob a lot.
00:45:29.335 --> 00:45:30.097
I love the Starks.
00:45:30.097 --> 00:45:31.900
Obviously, I love Danny as well, but you know what I mean.
00:45:31.900 --> 00:45:40.074
Like I did really have a soft spot for the Starks and my brother didn't tell me much but and he would just like nod.
00:45:40.074 --> 00:45:47.139
Whenever I said like oh, I love Rob or I love the Starks, he'd be like yeah, and like nod and said like yeah, yeah, I get it, whatever.
00:45:47.851 --> 00:45:52.460
And then I remember I wanted to Google something about Rob.
00:45:52.460 --> 00:45:58.838
I forgot what it was and then it said status deceased and I just saw it and went what Excuse me?
00:45:58.838 --> 00:46:00.641
Like he's going to die.
00:46:00.641 --> 00:46:07.795
So I knew he was gonna die, unfortunately, because I spoiled that something for myself.
00:46:07.795 --> 00:46:09.000
And I knew that there was something called the red wedding.
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:09.621
I just didn't know what it was.
00:46:09.641 --> 00:46:13.777
And then I remember watching it, um, not long after, like getting around to it and and, um, crying my eyes out.
00:46:13.777 --> 00:46:21.516
And then it wasn't too long ago it was this year and a couple of months ago when I finally read it in the books, um, and I thought it was really cool.
00:46:21.516 --> 00:46:37.650
I thought that's happened, not really cool in a good way, but, like um, it was interesting to see the differences and to relive it in that way, because there are some differences and I remember being shocking and being like on edge and like like, at the same time, knowing, like, like, feeling that dread, you know that it's coming soon, it's coming soon.
00:46:37.650 --> 00:46:46.291
And then, like, it was bittersweet when it's ended because I was like, okay, at least I don't have to go through the trauma of that again, and I know that because you told me that that the purple wedding was coming very soon after.
00:46:46.291 --> 00:46:48.797
Um, so that was my story with it.
00:46:48.858 --> 00:46:56.411
And I do have a few uh like things I want to mention from the books as well, about George, and he said that was the hardest thing to write.
00:46:56.411 --> 00:47:12.496
I think we mentioned this on the podcast before where, like, he wrote the entire book and then went back and wrote the red wedding scene, just because it was so hard for him to to write that actual scene, and I didn't know this, but apparently he wanted to be in the scene in the show um, but he could, he wasn't able to.
00:47:12.496 --> 00:47:17.036
He wants to be one of the casualties, uh of the red wedding and play like a dead body or something.
00:47:17.056 --> 00:47:21.817
But he, he couldn't make it in time for the, for the filming, um, but there was a scene that there there was a quote.
00:47:21.817 --> 00:47:27.096
Sorry that I thought that you pulled up for George or that you came across, but I don't.
00:47:27.096 --> 00:47:30.436
I mentioned about George's experience killing them off in the books.
00:47:30.436 --> 00:47:36.556
He says the more I write about a character, the more affection I feel even for the worst of them, which doesn't mean I won't kill them.
00:47:36.556 --> 00:47:40.579
Whoever it was who said kill your darlings was was referring to his favorite lines in the story.
00:47:40.579 --> 00:47:42.880
But it's just as true for characters.
00:47:42.981 --> 00:47:49.567
The moment the reader begins to believe that the character is protected by the magical cloak of authorial immunity, tension goes out the window.
00:47:49.567 --> 00:47:54.938
The Red Wedding was tremendously hard to write and then he mentioned that he had to go back and write it again.
00:47:54.938 --> 00:47:58.860
He said I love those characters too much, but I knew it had to be done.
00:47:58.860
--> 00:48:01.898
So it's almost like it wasn't just like out of nowhere.
00:48:01.898 --> 00:48:05.856
He knew that this is what he kind of had to do.
00:48:05.856 --> 00:48:08.766
So I I appreciate, like I respect that, I understand that.
00:48:08.766 --> 00:48:20.619
And he actually mentions did you see this where he says that, um, he thinks that the red wedding on screen is worse than the book, especially because telisa's pregnant and she like yeah, I mean visuals.
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:22.621
if you see it, it's so gruesome.
00:48:22.621 --> 00:48:25.326
Yeah, it's traumatizing.
00:48:25.326 --> 00:48:42.704
I do have a quick note about the director, david Nutter, saying that he approached the episode like a slow-burning horror scene, so he chose to film most of it chronologically, allowing actors to emotionally spiral with their character.
00:48:42.704 --> 00:48:45.378
The tension on set was so palpable.
00:48:45.378 --> 00:48:53.443
Michelle Farrelly's final scream was so raw it reportedly left the crew members in tears.
00:48:53.443 --> 00:48:58.021
Richard Madden, who plays Rob, admitted he cried even after they called cut.
00:48:58.021 --> 00:49:08.400
Oana Chaplin, playing Talissa, was so shaken by the stabbing scene that she cried while playing dead, prompting the director to say dead people don't cry.
00:49:09.570 --> 00:49:13.742
And the sequence was rehearsed and blocked like a battle plan, but emotionally it was chaos.
00:49:13.742 --> 00:49:28.577
So it's kind of like I can imagine you know Michelle Farrelly and Richard Madden being with that show for three plus years, maybe four years, and all of a sudden you have to make that scene and then that's it, you're done.
00:49:28.577 --> 00:49:32.460
Yeah, that could be incredibly emotional.
00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:38.409
I do want actually I want to highlight Michelle Farrelly for her performance.
00:49:38.409 --> 00:49:42.342
I think it's nothing short of legendary.
00:49:42.342 --> 00:49:44.967
Her scream is so effing raw.
00:49:44.967 --> 00:49:45.449
Yeah.
00:49:45.891 --> 00:49:47.097
Filled with anguish.
00:49:47.097 --> 00:49:48.434
I mean, it stops time.
00:49:48.434 --> 00:49:55.460
It wasn't just losing her son that she was reacting to, it was just everything that she's fought to preserve.
00:49:55.460 --> 00:50:02.402
She delivered that entire I read that she delivered that entire final scene in one continuous take.
00:50:02.402 --> 00:50:11.869
So holding the camera with you know, that intensity, that right there like, made it so heartbreaking, an unforgettable moment.
00:50:11.869 --> 00:50:21.711
And it's a freaking shame that she wasn't even nominated for an emmy right that that right, that scene alone, right there, should have been worthy of a nomination.
00:50:23.432 --> 00:50:25.094
Yeah, I can't believe that.
00:50:25.815 --> 00:50:26.356
Rob does it.
00:50:26.356 --> 00:50:36.563
I mean, Richard Madden does a great job and I think just the touching of Talisa's stomach and grabbing her head, and just what can you say?
00:50:36.563 --> 00:50:40.146
I mean, it's something that I don't want to revisit again for a while.
00:50:40.146 --> 00:50:46.728
I'm doing it because we're doing the podcast, right yeah, but I don't want to be like a while I'm doing it because we're doing the podcast, right, but I don't want to be like oh yeah, you know what, let me watch this episode.
00:50:46.728 --> 00:50:48.255
No, I don't want to do that.
00:50:50.251 --> 00:51:22.481
When you said something, when you said that about Michelle Farrelly, I kind of want to I do agree, and I want to make a note that when, like you really feel her loss, as you said, and you really get the sense that Kat doesn't have anything to live for anymore, like, yes, um, she has Sansa, she has Arya, she has Bran and Rickon they're still alive and well in the world, but she doesn't know that you know when, when, when that happens, and she, she, she kind of accepts her fate, but at the same time, she's like no, like, like they're going to die.
00:51:22.481 --> 00:51:25.132
Like you can just sense that I have, like you can read it on her face.
00:51:25.132 --> 00:51:28.235
She's like no, like they're going to die, like you can just sense that I have, like you can read it on her face.
00:51:28.235 --> 00:51:29.157
She's like I have nothing else to live for.
00:51:29.157 --> 00:51:29.436
That's it I'm.
00:51:29.436 --> 00:51:33.601
They killed my son, they killed my unborn grandchild, they killed my husband.
00:51:33.601 --> 00:51:38.487
They likely are going to kill my daughters very soon and my sons.
00:51:44.250 --> 00:51:45.735
So, and does she believe, actually, that Bran and Rickon are dead?
00:51:45.735 --> 00:51:46.436
Because I think that she might.
00:51:46.436 --> 00:51:47.780
Yeah, so she is sure that Sansa and Arya are gonna die?
00:51:47.780 --> 00:51:49.445
Sorry, what I said about her sons.
00:51:49.445 --> 00:51:51.092
She, she thinks that they're dead.
00:51:51.092 --> 00:51:52.780
I just forgot about that point.
00:51:52.780 --> 00:51:57.018
So she just sees a woman that you just see, a woman that doesn't have anything to live for anymore.
00:51:57.018 --> 00:51:59.690
She's like death is better for me than living in this world.
00:51:59.690 --> 00:52:12.490
Like I think at that point, honestly, she could have just easily taken her own life, as if she was like either it was her taking her own life or her being killed, like in that instance, like it's not funny, sorry, but like that's that's that, like that was just cat's mindset.
00:52:12.572 --> 00:52:21.978
And I think that what george wanted to communicate um through the red wedding scene, was effectively communicated because of of um.
00:52:21.978 --> 00:52:40.594
Because here's what he said yes, it was just to like not just to do something different, but it was to to do that, you know, to say what he said about his characters and to make sure that people kind of know that no
one's safe and, and you know, not really give people what they expect in one way.
00:52:40.594 --> 00:52:44.958
But he actually says that's one of the reasons why he did it is because he wanted people to feel the weight of death.
00:52:44.958 --> 00:52:50.362
He says it's a horrible chapter and it upsets people, it makes people angry, it makes people sad.
00:52:50.362 --> 00:52:52.898
People throw the book against the wall or into the fireplace.
00:52:52.898 --> 00:52:56.960
When it was on TV, it had the same effect on tens of thousands, if not millions, of people.
00:52:56.960 --> 00:52:58.615
To my mind, that's good.
00:53:03.769 --> 00:53:04.452
We're talking about death here.
00:53:04.452 --> 00:53:05.634
We all, in our real lives, have experienced death.
00:53:05.634 --> 00:53:09.771
Your parents die, your best friend dies, sometimes in a really tragic situation, your children die or your wife or husband dies.
00:53:09.771 --> 00:53:12.539
It's terrible, it affects you, it makes you angry, it makes you sad.
00:53:13.061 --> 00:53:19.231
In our entertainment television, film, books over the centuries as it's evolved, death is often treated very cavalierly.
00:53:19.231 --> 00:53:22.938
Somebody is dead, we've got a mystery and the detective has to figure out who did it.
00:53:22.938 --> 00:53:27.891
We never consider who the corpse is or what his life was like, what it's going to be like without him.
00:53:27.891 --> 00:53:33.072
If I'm going to write a death scene, particularly for major characters, I want to make sure the reader feel it.
00:53:33.072 --> 00:53:36.202
That's what the Red Wedding, I think, successfully accomplished.
00:53:36.202 --> 00:54:07.601
People felt that death and I can't help but agree and I feel like, yes, the shock value of it all might overshadow it, and it's going to be argued whether that's a good thing or a bad thing when it comes to George's trying to do the shock value of it all, but ultimately it's feeling the weight of the death of a huge character Not just one, but two and there is a very tragic element to it and I think you said something before we started recording that you found a fact that was inspired by something like in history.
00:54:07.643 --> 00:54:10.016
George pulled inspiration from something that's actually happened in real life.
00:54:10.016 --> 00:54:13.630
So I think that it did like.
00:54:13.630 --> 00:54:21.617
George did accomplish what he set out to do, even though I would make like the kind of footnote and be like maybe the shock factor of it all does take away from it a little bit.
00:54:21.617 --> 00:54:25.824
So I think that, yeah, he accomplished his goal.
00:54:26.250 --> 00:54:27.436
A mission accomplished for him.
00:54:27.436 --> 00:54:31.161
I mean, it's served as a turning point for the audience, right?
00:54:31.161 --> 00:54:41.686
So when it comes to, like, the consequences of Rob's death and it effectively removed House Stark from any political landscape, that's it.
00:54:41.686 --> 00:54:43.777
There was no pursuit of independence.
00:54:43.777 --> 00:54:56.556
And then you have, in the next episode, we realized it was all under Tywin Lannister's orders and he's sitting there, he's basically being kingly, and that's it.
00:54:56.556 --> 00:54:59.780
And we're like, okay, where does this story go?
00:54:59.780 --> 00:54:59.960
Now?
00:54:59.960 --> 00:55:02.498
The story, the stars are done.
00:55:02.498 --> 00:55:05.851
Who's going gonna fight the lannisters?
00:55:05.851 --> 00:55:08.536
Stannis, you know?
00:55:08.536 --> 00:55:12.222
I mean like, yeah, daenerys, she's out there, she's trying to.
00:55:12.222 --> 00:55:16.456
You know, uh, free slaves and her dragons are still too young.
00:55:16.456 --> 00:55:21.693
You know, are we gonna have this lannister reign for how much longer?
00:55:22.235 --> 00:55:26.880
we kind of feel like it's theirs, like they won the game already, right, yeah.
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:35.637
But then I guess, if you're watching it for this first time and you have that realization, it could just be like how are they going to fall?
00:55:35.637 --> 00:55:36.420
Do you know what?
00:55:36.420 --> 00:55:37.976
I mean Like it has to be from within.
00:55:37.976 --> 00:55:40.132
Then maybe they could predict where it was it would be heading.
00:55:40.132 --> 00:55:42.117
But you Then maybe they could predict where it would be heading.
00:55:42.898 --> 00:55:50.101
You know I was going to add the audio of Michelle Farrelly's last scene but you know, I don't want to do that, it's too much.
00:55:50.121 --> 00:55:51.007
No, don't, it's too much, I can't.
00:55:51.007 --> 00:55:52.653
For those you know.
00:55:52.653 --> 00:55:55.282
Just if you want to rewatch it, go to YouTube.
00:55:55.282 --> 00:55:56.615
You'll find I just can't hear her.
00:55:56.615 --> 00:55:59.614
That yell is just freaking.
00:55:59.614 --> 00:56:04.244
It penetrates your soul and I don't even want to hear it anymore.
00:56:04.244 --> 00:56:12.643
Well, you did mention the Red Wedding, the live event, the real life events that I found those from Scottish history.
00:56:12.643 --> 00:56:15.130
There's something called the Black Dinner from 1440.
00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:26.679
A 10-year-old Earl of Douglas was invited to dine with King James II only to have a black bull's head, a symbol of death, served before he and his brother were executed.
00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:30.440
And then something called the Glencoe Massacre of 1692.
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:39.177
The Campbell clan killed their McDonald host after accepting their hospitality Betrayal under the sacred rules of guest rights.
00:56:39.177 --> 00:56:40.681
Sound familiar?
00:56:42.894 --> 00:56:54.389
I think we have pretty much covered everything about the Red Wedding that we could possibly find online or could talk about ourselves, but there's actually one tiny little Easter egg or fun fact about the episode.
00:56:54.389 --> 00:56:58.570
I think Lots
of people know this, but this would be really cool to mention.
00:56:58.570 --> 00:56:59.614
I guess it's a fun.
00:56:59.614 --> 00:57:05.293
It's a tidbit from the show, which is that in the red wedding scene there's actually a musician.
00:57:05.293 --> 00:57:14.001
I don't really know what instrument he's playing, but uh, the, the drummer from coldplay, is actually one of the musicians on the red wedding, which is actually a really fun.
00:57:15.010 --> 00:57:28.945
Uh, cameo coldplay exists in george's world coldplay and ed sheeran yes oh my gosh, okay, so let's get to our scene of the episode.
00:57:28.945 --> 00:57:31.800
Are we gonna say, obviously we're saying the last scene?
00:57:32.021 --> 00:57:35.170
yeah, we can't say anything else there's nothing else that can top it.
00:57:35.170 --> 00:57:57.382
Obviously and we've talked about it now uh, this episode is rated 9.9 on IMDb and it's one of the highest rated episodes of television when it comes to how many people reviewed it, because there's some episodes that have a 9.9 and 10 people reviewed it, so that doesn't really count.
00:57:57.382 --> 00:58:02.121
We're talking about hundreds of thousands of reviews and it comes to a 9.9.
00:58:02.121 --> 00:58:06.494
So what is your rating of the reigns of castamere?
00:58:07.137 --> 00:58:37.025
I'd give it a 9.5 really you can't give this a 10 if this is because look no, like it's it's, I want to give it to 10, but at the same time, like honestly, like it just feels a bit no, you're right, like it's just because the danny makes it a bit less focused, even though I love danny we agree on that.
00:58:37.230 --> 00:58:38.833
But what happens?
00:58:38.833 --> 00:58:48.494
That build-up and and the ending makes up for daenerys's little you know story and sam yeah, yeah yeah, so you can.
00:58:48.574 --> 00:58:49.275
It makes up for that.
00:58:49.275 --> 00:58:50.277
This is a 10, I think.
00:58:50.277 --> 00:58:51.842
This is what the for me.
00:58:51.842 --> 00:58:54.014
I think is that the third 10 I'm giving out.
00:58:54.014 --> 00:58:59.570
I think I gave out a 10 for the first episode, uh, and then blackwater.
00:58:59.570 --> 00:59:05.583
I gave a 10, and then this one, and that concludes our 70th episode of the podcast.
00:59:05.583 --> 00:59:09.579
Thanks for joining us as we unpack this brutal turning point.
00:59:09.579 --> 00:59:12.038
If you're still reeling, you're not alone.
00:59:12.038 --> 00:59:15.958
This is the moment that shattered hearts and changed the realm forever.
00:59:15.958 --> 00:59:20.896
But make sure to follow, rate and share if you enjoyed the episode.
00:59:20.896 --> 00:59:24.454
To follow the podcast on Instagram, go to dancingwith__dragons.
00:59:24.454 --> 00:59:30.157
Join us next time as we review the season finale of the third season of Game of Thrones.
00:59:30.157 --> 00:59:41.717
Meanwhile, I will attempt to pick up the pieces and follow the scattered stars into the aftermath of betrayal, because in Westeros the dead may fall, but the North remembers.