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Vox: You nervous? level , a week, two weeks before you're getting really nervous.
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Vox: You're like, oh my God, am I going to fail again? The mindset, I was doubting myself and I got really anxious.
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Vox: I have emergency cigarettes package in my drawer and I was like, this is the only one I'm smoking. That's it.
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Vox: Of course, there's always things you're going to worry about.
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Krutika Adatia : Any of that resonate? Hello, and welcome back to On Your Marks from the ACCA. I'm Krutika Adatia and I'm a chartered accountant. I now support accountancy students through their training. And in this series I sit down with experts to look at how we can all better handle whatever life throws at us, whether we're preparing for our next accountancy exam or trying to get a good night's sleep while balancing a tricky workload. Wherever you are at in your journey towards qualification, On Your Marks is here to help you tackle the process head on. And we're so delighted to be back for season two.
This week, we're looking at anxiety. We all get anxious sometimes, but how do we know when it's time to seek help? Why do we evolve to have anxiety in the first place, and what techniques can help us or manage anxiety a little better? This is On Your Marks, because you'll never know until you try.
As an educator, I hear it all the time. Accountancy students are often dealing with a lot of anxiety whilst preparing for and sitting their exams. For me, anxiety is like this persistent little voice in the back of my mind and it tends to get louder in certain situations.
I really notice it before important work meetings, when I'm in new environments, and especially the first time I recorded this podcast. I remember it being particularly overwhelming during exam periods, especially during the equivalent strategic professional stage. Balancing a busy workload with studying felt like too much at times. I was constantly worried I wasn't studying enough and terrified that I'd blank out in the exam hall. I think many of you might be able to relate to that feeling.
To chat it all through, I've got Joshua Fletcher here. He's a therapist and author and an expert on anxiety. In fact, online he's known as Anxiety Josh. Josh, what actually is anxiety?
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Joshua Fletcher: Thanks for having me on. Anxiety, yeah, it's a broad subject. To understand it, it's the mind and body's threat response. There's a part of our brain called the amygdala, which is shaped like an almond. And the amygdala is the oldest, fastest, and dumbest parts of our brain. When it senses threat, whether a real threat or a perceived threat or maybe an imaginary threat, it releases adrenaline and cortisol and we feel anxiety.
When we feel nervous, on edge, maybe we've got racing thoughts, intrusive thoughts, when we're ruminating, catastrophizing, when we're worried about something, maybe we're even having something as severe a panic attack, that is anxiety. It's the threat response. The level of anxiety is dependent on the mind and body's decision to gauge the threat.
You've got conventional anxiety, so if you're worried about exams, that would be classed as conventional anxiety, because people can relate to exam stress. Whether you're worried about driving test, maybe the dentist wants to rip your molars out, maybe you've got issues going on in your life, that kind of conventional anxiety is the mind and body's threat response.
I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in working with anxiety and anxiety disorders. When you look at anxiety from a disorder point of view, which basically means inwards, things aren't in the right place, I look at the kind of anxiety that we also don't really speak about, so people who struggle with panic attacks, agoraphobia, intrusive thoughts, health anxiety, monophobia, social anxiety, these different types of anxiety.
To answer the question, " What is anxiety?", I usually split it into two. It's your mind's threat response, is it focusing on conventional threat or has it gone inwards and we're struggling with chronic anxiety?
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Krutika Adatia : Thank you for that explanation, Josh. I just want to touch on a couple of things that you've mentioned. You touched on words like nerves and worry. You also mentioned cortisol release which, I mean, certainly I associate with stress. There's sometimes tendencies to maybe use interchangeable terminology as well.
Is there a distinction between anxiety and stress and nerves and worry, or are they all under the same umbrella?
00:04:44
Joshua Fletcher: I think stress and anxiety are different. I think anxiety is exacerbated by stress, particularly accumulated stress. If you're someone who's got a lot on, maybe you're studying for exams, maybe you got lots going on in your personal life, maybe you're processing things that have happened in the past, maybe you're grieving, maybe you're struggling to pay the rent or the mortgage, these stressful things can build up. And when they accumulate, can make us feel anxious because the brain's threat response tries to kick in.
It doesn't understand subjective stress, because again, it's the oldest part of our
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brain. Our ancestors used it to full effect. But in the modern day, when we're really stressed with all these things, sometimes anxiety can make things even worse. Also, you can reframe that though, but anxiety sometimes is a message to you to say, maybe the way I'm living at the moment isn't currently sustainable, maybe I can't keep living with this level of stress, maybe this is a warning sign, a helpful warning sign say, where can I put the foot on the brake a bit and take a look at my life and address the stress that's currently in it?
00:05:58
Krutika Adatia : You mentioned that anxiety is a threat response. How common is it amongst individuals? Is it something that everyone experiences?
00:06:09
Joshua Fletcher: Everyone gets anxiety. It's a very healthy, normal emotion. It's a very normal thing that the body does. When it becomes chronic and excessive, that's when you need to intervene and change things. But we all get anxiety and we all have that threat response. Some people like the threat response, so they're called... What's the term?... adrenaline junkies. People watch scary films. They go on roller coasters. They like to push themselves and put themselves in scary situations. It's the same thing, it's the threat response.
But that's the very same threat response to someone who's perhaps at home worrying over catastrophic thoughts and scenarios. It just depends how it presents in our relationship with it. I'm someone who struggled really badly with anxiety years ago, couldn't leave the house, was very monophobic, had panic attacks, diagnosed with panic disorder and OCD. And a lot of that was down to my relationship with this threat response, the anxiety. I was scared of anxiety itself, this fear of fear, and didn't quite understand it. Now I'm okay. I still get anxiety.
Lots of people are like, "How do you get rid of anxiety?" No, we don't get rid of it, but we calm it down so it functions like it should do.
00:07:24
Krutika Adatia : Thank you so much for candidly sharing your experiences with it. I guess we'll touch on this a bit more later, but seeing as you've mentioned it, how did you overcome anxiety? I know you say you still deal with it, but was there something that helped you in particular to manage it?
00:07:41
Joshua Fletcher: Yeah. One of the main things that helped me with my anxiety is understanding what was going on in my mind and body, because I thought I was going crazy. One morning, when anxiety really kicked in, I was making a cup of tea at work and suddenly everything felt strange and looked
strange. I was experiencing a symptom called dissociation and it really scared me. I didn't know what was going on.
And then my heart started racing, palpitating. I just felt the sudden sense that something awful was going to happen. My chest hurt, and I just felt like I needed to escape where I was. That was my first- ever panic attack. My thoughts were racing. I thought I was going crazy. I thought I was going to die, basically.
I became agoraphobic, so I wouldn't leave my house because I thought that was my safe zone. Or when I did leave, I could only go to specific areas. I struggled with intrusive thoughts, wrestled with them, ruminated, constantly searched for reassurance, and basically tried to work out what was wrong with me, and I didn't understand. The doctor didn't help at the time and I was in a really lonely place.
I got better through psychoeducation and through the correct therapy as well, and just understanding what my brain was doing, understanding that the thoughts are there because the threat response is trying to suggest what the danger is. Learning I have agency with thoughts, you can choose to engage with what thoughts are important to you or not. Realizing I wasn't made of glass. Anxious people feel very vulnerable. A lot about overcoming anxiety is realizing you can tolerate more than you think.
And emptying out my stress jug. I was going through a lot and talking about it, going to therapy, opening up to friends. Things like that really helped to calm the anxiety and the threat response down.
00:09:38
Krutika Adatia : That's really useful to know that the education piece really helped you, Would you say that for our listeners, for example, who might be sitting exams and feeling anxious ahead of exams, that just understanding the emotion of anxiety could potentially help them manage it better?
00:09:55
Joshua Fletcher: Understanding what it is, yes. I mean, it's still uncomfortable, but you take away the mystery of anxiety. You can still function with anxiety, but use that as a signal for what you do next. If you're really stressed, particularly if you're struggling with conventional anxiety and it's exam time, that's a sign to say, right, take a step back for a second.
The really hardworking, perfectionist people... Perfectionism's another form of anxiety as well... they'll struggle to say no or stop. They'll keep pushing themselves and then they'll be teetering on burnout. Whereas listen to your mind and body. If your heart's palpitating at three in the morning, you're tossing and turning, you can't sleep,
you can't eat, your appetite's gone, you feel nauseous, maybe listen to that for a bit, to take a step back and give yourself permission to be like, okay, am I allowed some me time now?
I'm allowed to put in some boundaries with my work, with my studies, to allow my body and my nervous system to come back to a stay- at- homeostasis.
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Krutika Adatia : Just thinking about our students who are probably starting off and thinking, gosh, I've got 9 or 13 exams, depending on where they're starting, that's a long way to go, a lot of stress that they might have to take on, and anxiety. What might you say to that particular listener?
00:11:13
Joshua Fletcher: I'd say not only are you learning the skills required for your exams and for your profession, but you're also learning skills like resilience. And if you're going to go through that many exams, you will learn bit by bit, and realizing that with each one you'll become more resilient. You'll also teach the brain and the threat response, actually, this situation is safe.
Yes, the pressure's on and it's good to have a bit of anxiety for this, because anxiety's performance enhancing, it can be anyway, to an extent, but you'll learn to get better at it, so one at a time. Let's do the first one, see how we go, then do the second one. You might hit hurdles. I know my mate, when he did his exams, he failed a few, but he got back on the horse and passed them. Go easy and realize I'm also building my resilience.
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Krutika Adatia : When I was studying, I would have a lot of negative chatter in my mind when I was going through the exams, the, " I should be doing this.", or, " I can't do this, I don't think I will succeed." How can we go about actually silencing that negative chatter? Is it even possible?
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Joshua Fletcher: Understanding it helps it to appear quieter. Understanding your own internal narrative is important. That's why I love therapy. I became a therapist because I realized the power of understanding where negative internal dialogues come from and stuff. I still see a counselor now. It's great. I treat it like going to the gym, look after my brain.
You can show off on Instagram and going to the gym, but if you've got this internal chatter like, " You should be doing this, you're going to fail.", or whatever, that's learned. Where'd you learn that from? Are you being compared to successful siblings? Are your parents trying to live vicariously through you? Do you have an absent parent, so you put a lot of pressure on yourself to succeed and feel worthy?
Maybe you compare yourself to your friends or something. I don't know. Maybe your partner ran off with a really cool chartered accountant who passed the exams first time.
Look at where that internal dialogue comes from. I get it now and then, and I'm just like, no. Sometimes there's echoes from the past. Sometimes it's just me being hard on myself. But you don't need to engage with it. That's the thing. You can't turn it off. You can't stop thoughts and you can't stop internal dialogue, but you can choose to engage with it or not. I say, " Okay, if you want to chat today." And the same with intrusive thoughts pop into your head, " All right, you've decided to pop in, have you? Well, not bothered. My attention's over here. I'm not going to force you away, but leave quietly when you're ready."
Because what you resist, persists, so then you can't get rid of them, which is really something I learned the hard way
00:13:55
Krutika Adatia : I know earlier you mentioned what helps is seeing a counselor or speaking with a therapist, but I'm also thinking about some of our listeners who might not always have access to things like that or perhaps don't even realize that they have some sort of chronic anxiety. I'm Indian by culture and in my culture, for example, we don't really talk about emotions as much. Perhaps more so now certainly, but it's something that we just brush under the carpet.
I'm just thinking someone from a particular community or a society, they may not have the cognizance to actually recognize that they're experiencing some sort of chronic anxiety. At what point do we know that we ought to seek help? How do we realize that for ourselves?
00:14:45
Joshua Fletcher: To seek help for yourself, whether it's reaching out to other people or if you're a very private person, help can also be self- help. But you're right, emotional conservatism can be very cultural. Depending on your background, where you live, the community you're in, it could be an absolute no- no, I wouldn't know how to do that. But, you can talk to people professionally.
And if worst comes to worst, just read up about it, read up on it, find the experts and stuff, look at the good self- help things, learn about your brain. That's the kind thing to do to yourself. And then, if you feel a bit more informed and you might even feel a bit braver, to look at maybe then seeking help. If you've got a trusted friend to talk to, if you're lucky enough to have that, that can be helpful too, and just not keeping it to yourself.
Trying to bury it out of
shame doesn't work. I've tried it. It doesn't work. Your stress jug stays very full.
00:15:50
Krutika Adatia : I guess the next question I wanted to ask you is, we've spoken about the thoughts, feelings, sensations around anxiety, but how does anxiety impact things like your sleep and your diet and your nutrition? Is there any implications that we see on those factors as a result of anxiety?
00:16:09
Joshua Fletcher: Anxious people, their appetites will either increase or decrease and it might affect the foods that they want to eat. It's very common for anxious people to go towards sugary foods and carb- heavy foods, because to replenish the energy and because of blood sugar shifts and stuff. I'm not one of those anxiety gurus that pours attention into nutrition and stuff like that. Because it can be compulsive, and actually if you're a perfectionist, you start to try to fix yourself. There's a lot of that in my field.
I like going round and appearing really self- righteous by saying, " You don't need thrice- fermented kimchi to feel better. You need to understand that you are the coping technique with your anxiety and identify the hurdles from stopping you realizing that."
00:16:57
Krutika Adatia : And you know what? I can relate to a bit of that, because I feel I can be a bit of a perfectionist sometimes, trying to get everything in order and... Yeah, so I totally relate to that.
Josh, what about exercise when it comes to dealing with anxiety? I've heard that that sometimes helps to calm yourself.
00:17:14
Joshua Fletcher: I think exercise is good for when you're stressed. And if you are feeling a bit anxious, exercise is a good way to burn the excess adrenaline and cortisol that's pumping around. But it comes with a pre- warning. It depends on your relationship with exercise. If you are exercising compulsively to run away from a feeling, then I would look at that. So, it depends on your relationship with it.
Obviously exercise is good, fills the brain with serotonin and dopamine, of course. But I'm just concerned about people. If you're on the verge of burnout, maybe doing two hours in the gym isn't the correct thing to do, maybe something slow paced, maybe something sedentary. I mean, I go to the gym most days, but some days I tune into my body, that's probably not a good idea today.
In general, exercise is great, stress- busting stuff, good mood balancer, and a good way to burn through that adrenaline and cortisol. But don't do it when you're running on fumes.
00:18:22
Krutika Adatia : In terms of one of my final questions that I wanted to ask you is around the strategies and techniques that students can use specifically around exam time or when it's revision period for managing their anxiety and keeping it at bay. I know you've alluded to a few things already, but if you could summarize that for us.
00:18:41
Joshua Fletcher: If you are struggling with anxiety now and listening to this, just identify what type of anxiety it is. I think it's really important. If you're conventionally anxious and you're worried about things external from you, so I'm worried about the result of this exam, I'm worried about finances, I'm just worried about things around me in my life, then my advice to you is notice that... Okay, take a step back, be kind to yourself, and be like, right, I'm not going to try and solve all this through the lens of worry and threat. Because it doesn't work. It's like googling a headache while you're anxious, never ends well. You're planning your funeral two days later because you're not seeing it rationally. I'd say, take a step back, zone out for a bit. Commit your attention and focus to something that's wholesome for you. For me, in the middle of writing books and stuff, when I really was under the pressure of deadlines, I actually just had to have a day off where I didn't do anything. Even though the deadline was looming, I was like, no, because I'm going to burn out. So, I just sat in a dark room and played PlayStation. But it's what works for you. Some people are like, " You know what? I'm just going to go for a nice walk in nature.", or, " I'm going to see a friend.", and things like that. Vocalize it. I do love the jug analogy, which is, I can feel this stress building up there. What can I do for me to empty my stress jug? And your stress is your stress. I wish I could say, stand on your head, deep breathe, box breathe, whatever, do all these things like everyone else does. I've done them all. Yes, it helps. Being mindful and meditative when you're stressed is really helpful. Try not to do it in reaction, try to do it as preventative. But try not to immerse yourself in the stress, and learn to give yourself permission to take a step back. It doesn't have to be as consuming as you think. Learn that you are more capable of tolerating things than you believe. Obviously, if you can, talk to someone. You can always talk to your doctor and things like that, or a trusted person. Definitely, let your doctor know. And learn about how your anxiety presents because, actually, the approach for different anxieties is different. It varies. I often get asked on newspaper and radio and all that, " Number one anxiety- busting technique?" And I'm like, " It depends on your anxiety."
00:21:08
Krutika Adatia : That's really well put, because it will be individual to everyone.
Thank you, Josh, and I know you've said some great things already, but if there were three things you want listeners to take away from our conversation today, what would those top three things be?
00:21:24
Joshua Fletcher: Number one is, you are the coping technique, so trying to find them. Because for the brain to wire, to switch off the threat response, it has to believe that you are the one that can cope with it. Don't get me wrong, ask for help and learn and get there and remove the hurdles, but try not to waste your time trying to find things external from you to help a belief that you can function. You can function, and learn that. I always say that, particularly people with panic attacks and excessive anxiety.
Step two is, go easy on yourself. If you're already stressed and you're feeling anxious, less is more. Go easy. You're going to hear that inner critic, just let them chat, you don't need to engage.
Number three, stop comparing. It's okay. Don't compare yourself to others. You'll get there in your own way. Your value is not dictated on your output. Your value is holistic. You have multiple facets of yourself. Doing exams and studying to be an accountant of things are just one facet of what I presume would be an amazing self.
00:22:39
Krutika Adatia : Thank you, Josh. I'm so glad you said the last one. I'm referencing a quote here that I've read, " Comparison is the thief of all joy.", so I like that one. That was really insightful.
Where can our listeners get more information about you and your work?
00:22:53
Joshua Fletcher: I'm Joshua Fletcher, or Anxiety Josh on social media. I write books and I have my own anxiety self- help podcast called Disordered. Feel free to go check it out. My website is schoolofanxiety. com. Which is a school for anxious people, it's not, it was a silly name, but I stuck by it.
Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it.
00:23:12
Krutika Adatia : That's it from this episode of On Your Marks. Thank you, Josh, for chatting with me today. For more information about ACCA exams, you can go to www. accaglobal. com/ exams. And to watch the video version of this podcast, check out the link in the show notes.
I'm Krutika Adatia and this has been On Your Marks. On Your Marks is a Fresh Air Production for ACCA. Its lead producer is Eva Higginbotham and its executive producer is Annie Day. The videographer is Yohan Forbes and the sound engineer is Basil Oxtoby. See you next time.