अनुलिपि 🔗
1
00:00:00,830 --> 00:00:02,976
Announcer: This is
a Getty podcast.
2
00:00:02,984 --> 00:00:06,284
[Theme music begins] Host:
Some cabinets hold dishes
3
00:00:06,354 --> 00:00:10,579
or bedsheets or board games,
but have you ever heard of a
4
00:00:10,579 --> 00:00:13,249
cabinet that held a mystery?
5
00:00:14,174 --> 00:00:18,788
Welcome to If Objects Could
Talk, a podcast where art and
6
00:00:18,816 --> 00:00:24,573
artifacts come alive to tell
their side of the story.
7
00:00:24,573 --> 00:00:26,552
What is the oldest thing
in your home?
8
00:00:27,030 --> 00:00:28,118
How old is it?
9
00:00:28,523 --> 00:00:31,613
And how would you prove
its age if someone asked?
10
00:00:32,237 --> 00:00:35,964
Finding out how old an object
is and where it came from is
11
00:00:36,090 --> 00:00:38,325
very important to museums.
12
00:00:38,625 --> 00:00:42,107
A lot of information can be
gained by figuring out who
13
00:00:42,107 --> 00:00:43,774
previously owned something.
14
00:00:43,948 --> 00:00:46,866
This kind of research is so
important, it even gets a
15
00:00:46,867 --> 00:00:48,626
special name: provenance.
16
00:00:48,977 --> 00:00:51,787
Sometimes though, the trail
of clues doesn’t lead far
17
00:00:51,789 --> 00:00:54,898
back enough to tell us the
first owner or maker, or
18
00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:57,017
how old an object really is.
19
00:00:57,281 --> 00:01:01,055
When that happens, people have
to use other tools of discovery.
20
00:01:01,309 --> 00:01:06,420
They need to become real-life
art detectives. Today’s guest
21
00:01:06,439 --> 00:01:08,367
knows about art detective work.
22
00:01:08,690 --> 00:01:12,129
It’s a large wooden cabinet
covered in carvings of
23
00:01:12,134 --> 00:01:16,595
vines, saints, griffins, and
even the Greek god Apollo.
24
00:01:16,892 --> 00:01:19,893
It was likely used to hold
linens or tableware up
25
00:01:19,964 --> 00:01:22,857
off the ground, away from
the risk of damage from
26
00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:25,024
flooding or pests like rats.
[rat squeaks]
27
00:01:25,024 --> 00:01:28,399
And for a long time,
specialists thought it
28
00:01:28,401 --> 00:01:31,523
was a copy of a Renaissance
cabinet from around the
29
00:01:31,523 --> 00:01:36,372
1500s, but made hundreds of
years later in the 1800s.
30
00:01:36,592 --> 00:01:40,756
But this cabinet is here today
to share all about how old he
31
00:01:40,756 --> 00:01:45,131
really is, and how curators
and conservators proved it.
32
00:01:45,534 --> 00:01:48,978
[Mysterious music begins]
Cabinet: [deep voice with
33
00:01:48,978 --> 00:01:49,078
posh accent] Come
hear the tale of the most
34
00:01:49,078 --> 00:01:51,910
curious case the researchers
at Getty ever did face.
35
00:01:52,364 --> 00:01:58,667
To locate the origin, both the
place and the time, of a very
36
00:01:58,669 --> 00:02:02,646
old cabinet told here in rhyme.
[record scratches]
37
00:02:02,646 --> 00:02:04,428
Top Panel: [younger voice]
Told in rhyme by the, uh,
38
00:02:04,428 --> 00:02:06,493
older parts of the cabinet.
39
00:02:07,094 --> 00:02:08,864
[chuckles] Hi, I’m the
top panel.
40
00:02:09,047 --> 00:02:10,602
I was built a bit later.
41
00:02:10,816 --> 00:02:13,277
He’s been telling me tales
since, phew, I was brand new,
42
00:02:13,387 --> 00:02:16,400
and this is one of his, uh,
most interesting tales, stories,
43
00:02:16,472 --> 00:02:18,296
uh, cases, as he calls them.
44
00:02:18,797 --> 00:02:21,061
Can you tell his favorite
podcasts are mysteries?
45
00:02:21,323 --> 00:02:23,365
[Mysterious music resumes]
Cabinet: [clears throat]
46
00:02:23,365 --> 00:02:24,242
The case in question.
47
00:02:24,740 --> 00:02:29,289
Why, of course, that would be
me, made of the finest wood
48
00:02:29,634 --> 00:02:33,875
from walnut and oak tree.
[branches rustle]
49
00:02:33,875 --> 00:02:37,186
I’m an imposing cabinet
over 10 feet
50
00:02:37,188 --> 00:02:42,034
high, with four different
levels reaching up to the sky.
51
00:02:43,167 --> 00:02:47,887
I have three doors [doors
slam] and drawers in my middle
52
00:02:47,887 --> 00:02:50,184
section, and one down below.
53
00:02:50,405 --> 00:02:53,422
And since you can’t see
me on this podcast, you’d
54
00:02:53,422 --> 00:02:59,084
probably like to know I am
covered in carvings: flowers,
55
00:02:59,253 --> 00:03:01,939
griffins, even a Greek god.
56
00:03:02,166 --> 00:03:06,179
But I have an origin
story that’s a bit, well,
57
00:03:06,797 --> 00:03:12,903
odd.I was purchased by
Mr. Getty himself in 1971.
58
00:03:13,278 --> 00:03:16,285
[piano music] Museum curators
thought that I was fake,
59
00:03:16,779 --> 00:03:18,670
but he thought I was fun.
60
00:03:19,048 --> 00:03:22,926
You see, real cabinets from
the Renaissance are very rare.
61
00:03:23,567 --> 00:03:28,101
Most are worn and broken,
but I looked so fair.
62
00:03:28,858 --> 00:03:31,397
[crowd chatter] “A
copy,” they said, “though
63
00:03:31,398 --> 00:03:32,581
interesting to see.
64
00:03:33,134 --> 00:03:37,352
It’s not as important as a real
cabinet would be.” They could
65
00:03:37,353 --> 00:03:41,697
not just trust word of mouth,
or “of drawer”, as it were.
66
00:03:42,124 --> 00:03:47,056
The curators needed evidence to
back up such lore. Proof of my
67
00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:51,510
past went as far back as 1846.
68
00:03:51,510 --> 00:03:57,039
[triumphant chord]
69
00:03:57,039 --> 00:03:59,716
An engraving was made so my
owner could have pics of me.
70
00:04:00,129 --> 00:04:03,208
That’s right, and lots
of other cool art, too.
71
00:04:03,510 --> 00:04:05,403
[Classical music] To show
off their collection, both
72
00:04:05,428 --> 00:04:10,984
old things and new, they took
a photograph later in 1861.
73
00:04:11,478 --> 00:04:14,625
I had a brand-new base,
and my top shelf was redone.
74
00:04:14,627 --> 00:04:16,216
Top Panel: Oh, hey!
75
00:04:16,356 --> 00:04:17,005
That was me.
76
00:04:17,239 --> 00:04:19,738
We’ve been together
for about 160 years.
77
00:04:20,607 -->
Load full transcript
00:04:21,924
Time really flies.
78
00:04:22,333 --> 00:04:25,480
[Cabinet clears throat]
Oh, uh, sorry, Gramps.
79
00:04:25,824 --> 00:04:28,975
Keep going.Cabinet: Those
pictures were as far back as
80
00:04:28,976 --> 00:04:34,276
researchers could go, until one
day when the Musée National de
81
00:04:34,278 --> 00:04:38,500
la Renaissance in France did
an exhibit on Hugues Sambin.
82
00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:43,222
Hugues was the head of a
furniture shop in 1500s France.
83
00:04:43,766 --> 00:04:48,917
Curators saw a fancy armoire by
him, then took a second glance.
84
00:04:49,334 --> 00:04:51,346
[crowd says “hmm”] It looked
so very similar to me.
85
00:04:51,632 --> 00:04:53,687
Did we have the same maker?
86
00:04:54,306 --> 00:04:55,277
Could it be?
87
00:04:58,244 --> 00:05:00,498
[triumphant music] The Getty
decided that the time was
88
00:05:00,498 --> 00:05:06,493
right to take me out of storage
and into the light.The first
89
00:05:06,493 --> 00:05:10,020
tool they used to investigate
me may come as a surprise.
90
00:05:10,205 --> 00:05:11,806
It wasn’t fancy tech.
91
00:05:12,037 --> 00:05:15,068
They simply used their eyes.
[rapid blinks]
92
00:05:15,727 --> 00:05:19,048
It’s called “close looking”,
examining for
93
00:05:19,049 --> 00:05:23,967
details: little marks left by
woodworking tools [sanding]
94
00:05:23,967 --> 00:05:26,089
or holes from old nails.
[hammering]
95
00:05:26,887 --> 00:05:29,741
Rough marks on my back look
like they were from
96
00:05:29,741 --> 00:05:34,317
a handsaw [sawing] and there
are dents from being held to
97
00:05:34,317 --> 00:05:39,020
a workbench by an iron claw.
[creaking]
98
00:05:39,020 --> 00:05:41,907
These were common tools
to use in the
99
00:05:41,907 --> 00:05:45,298
1500s, way back in the past.
100
00:05:45,592 --> 00:05:51,082
The museum was discovering my
long, long history at last!
101
00:05:51,082 --> 00:05:53,977
Top Panel: Close looking can
lead to all kinds of discoveries.
102
00:05:54,272 --> 00:05:58,276
You can see brush strokes
in paint, weave in cloth,
103
00:05:58,863 --> 00:06:02,123
or carvings in wood
just by using your eyes.
104
00:06:02,294 --> 00:06:04,264
But close looking was
only the first step.
105
00:06:04,575 --> 00:06:08,620
After that, conservators had to
go a little deeper, analyzing
106
00:06:08,620 --> 00:06:10,176
the wood inside the cabinet.
107
00:06:10,328 --> 00:06:11,864
Right, Gramps?
Cabinet: Yes.
108
00:06:12,097 --> 00:06:16,078
Conservators used a special
methodology to measure tree
109
00:06:16,099 --> 00:06:19,054
rings called dendrochronology.
110
00:06:19,489 --> 00:06:22,371
You see, trees grow different
amounts in a single year,
111
00:06:23,996 --> 00:06:27,947
depending on how hot it is
or how much rain comes near.
112
00:06:27,971 --> 00:06:32,686
This growth makes a pattern, a
nd if you have wood
113
00:06:32,750 --> 00:06:36,579
with which to compare, you can
figure out which trees were
114
00:06:36,580 --> 00:06:39,521
nearby,
when it grew, and where.
[voice says “aha!”]
115
00:06:39,521 --> 00:06:42,743
So a scientist found
other wood
116
00:06:42,762 --> 00:06:47,727
with the same rings as me, and
discovered I’m from a region in
117
00:06:47,729 --> 00:06:56,104
France called Burgundy, cut down
in the fall or winter of 1574.
118
00:06:56,835 --> 00:06:59,366
[trees rustling and chopping]
No one had ever thought
119
00:06:59,404 --> 00:07:01,027
I was that old before.
[children say “wow!”]
120
00:07:01,027 --> 00:07:04,360
Top Panel: Next time you see
121
00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,847
wood furniture, see if you
can count the tree rings.
122
00:07:07,119 --> 00:07:09,431
Even if you can’t use
dendrochronology to date
123
00:07:09,432 --> 00:07:12,426
it at home, it’s still
so cool to see how much
124
00:07:12,427 --> 00:07:13,481
the wood grew each year.
125
00:07:13,904 --> 00:07:17,313
If you see rings with a similar
size, it might mean the weather
126
00:07:17,315 --> 00:07:19,263
was similar for those two years.
127
00:07:19,561 --> 00:07:22,561
Of course, researchers couldn’t
use dendrochronology for
128
00:07:22,562 --> 00:07:26,437
everything. Cabinet: Next,
they looked inside, opened
129
00:07:26,452 --> 00:07:29,830
up my doors and my drawers
[drawers open] and found
130
00:07:29,835 --> 00:07:33,607
some very old cloth that they
could use to settle scores.
131
00:07:33,848 --> 00:07:38,202
Snipped away a few threads
and used carbon dating, which
132
00:07:38,230 --> 00:07:41,816
calculates age by how much
something is deteriorating.
133
00:07:42,179 --> 00:07:44,729
It’s not as exact as tree rings.
134
00:07:44,779 --> 00:07:46,866
It shows a big range of years.
135
00:07:47,027 --> 00:07:49,935
But carbon dating turned out
to be a good way to settle
136
00:07:49,938 --> 00:07:52,769
some fears [voice says “whew!”]
because the cloth came from the
137
00:07:52,769 --> 00:07:58,251
same period of time as the wood.
[triumphant music and clapping]
138
00:08:00,578 --> 00:08:05,015
So for proving my age,
that’s very, very good.
139
00:08:05,789 --> 00:08:08,568
You see, researching
history isn’t quite
140
00:08:08,599 --> 00:08:09,919
like a math equation.
141
00:08:10,365 --> 00:08:14,606
There’s no true answer, and
you can’t just, on occasion,
142
00:08:15,203 --> 00:08:18,067
look up the perfect answer
in the back of a book.
143
00:08:18,172 --> 00:08:22,761
Instead, the journey starts
by taking a
144
00:08:22,794 --> 00:08:27,386
look at where the evidence
points, finding the most likely
145
00:08:27,386 --> 00:08:31,457
explanation, compiling all
the details, and making sure
146
00:08:31,494 --> 00:08:34,699
to use citation. Top Panel:
Sometimes it feels like it would
147
00:08:34,712 --> 00:08:37,603
be much easier if there was
a perfect answer every time.
148
00:08:37,784 --> 00:08:39,920
But when you’re dealing with
history, there’s a lot of
149
00:08:39,922 --> 00:08:41,675
“probablys” or “most likelys”.
150
00:08:41,885 --> 00:08:44,135
People can’t
always
find 100% proof.
151
00:08:44,409 --> 00:08:47,353
But by using multiple methods
of research, we can make
152
00:08:47,353 --> 00:08:49,742
our best effort to make
sure we’re pointed in the
153
00:08:49,742 --> 00:08:52,540
right direction.Cabinet: So
one more piece of evidence
154
00:08:52,540 --> 00:08:56,449
important to my history—it
was found deep inside the
155
00:08:56,449 --> 00:08:58,154
secrets of my cabinetry.
156
00:08:58,579 --> 00:09:02,288
A metal tack could be the
key to separate truth from
157
00:09:02,295 --> 00:09:05,464
myths, but only if you
know a little bit about the
158
00:09:05,467 --> 00:09:08,131
workings of blacksmiths.
[metal hammering]
159
00:09:08,131 --> 00:09:10,035
Top Panel: Oh, oh!
160
00:09:10,433 --> 00:09:11,834
This is the part
with the metal tack.
161
00:09:12,115 --> 00:09:15,122
It’s so fun and tacky.
[laughs] In a good way.
162
00:09:15,122 --> 00:09:17,742
Cabinet: [laughs] Little panel,
163
00:09:17,959 --> 00:09:19,180
you’ve heard it so often.
164
00:09:19,264 --> 00:09:21,459
Yeah, you should tell this
one.Top Panel: Oh, really?
165
00:09:21,579 --> 00:09:22,108
You think?
166
00:09:22,232 --> 00:09:23,014
Okay.
[Mysterious music]
167
00:09:23,014 --> 00:09:25,502
Uh, so researchers
also became
168
00:09:25,521 --> 00:09:28,554
interested in a loose metal tack
that they found in a drawer.
169
00:09:28,906 --> 00:09:31,540
They polished tiny slivers
of the metal [sheets
170
00:09:31,540 --> 00:09:35,071
rustling] and analyzed it
under an optical microscope.
171
00:09:35,093 --> 00:09:37,923
[voice says “hmm”] Metal is made
up of tiny crystal structures.
172
00:09:37,923 --> 00:09:41,219
[chimes] And when they looked
closely, they could see
173
00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:43,703
that the crystal structures
had a rounded shape.
174
00:09:44,389 --> 00:09:46,280
Now, this was very exciting.
175
00:09:46,563 --> 00:09:48,810
You see, modern metals are
usually hammered [metal
176
00:09:48,810 --> 00:09:51,950
hammering] or stamped into
shape [metal tap] which would
177
00:09:51,950 --> 00:09:54,659
make the crystal structure
in the metal very different.
178
00:09:55,132 --> 00:09:58,121
The rounded shape means the
metal was likely heated up and
179
00:09:58,122 --> 00:09:59,493
then poured into a mold to cool.
180
00:10:00,444 --> 00:10:01,786
[bubbling then sizzling]
This was a common practice
181
00:10:01,786 --> 00:10:04,021
in the 1500s, but not today.
182
00:10:04,314 --> 00:10:07,454
So…Cabinet: So it really
looks like I’m celebrating
183
00:10:07,454 --> 00:10:10,949
my 450th birthday.
184
00:10:10,949 --> 00:10:13,685
[“Happy Birthday” instrumental
song] What an adventure.
185
00:10:13,685 --> 00:10:16,790
What a journey through time.
The Getty looked at the
186
00:10:16,790 --> 00:10:21,806
past, not sure what they’d
find, but boy, am I glad
187
00:10:21,838 --> 00:10:23,221
they took a good look at me.
188
00:10:24,052 --> 00:10:29,087
If you looked into your history,
what would you see?Top Panel:
189
00:10:29,098 --> 00:10:30,271
Oh, that was a great story.
190
00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:33,665
Okay, time for cake
and a lot of candles.
191
00:10:34,361 --> 00:10:39,602
[Theme music begins]
Host: I hope you enjoyed
192
00:10:39,603 --> 00:10:42,723
learning about provenance
and conservation research.
193
00:10:44,321 --> 00:10:48,441
Join us next time when one cool
horse comes into the studio.
194
00:10:49,298 --> 00:10:50,853
[horse chuffs] To see
photographs of the cabinet
195
00:10:50,904 --> 00:10:54,441
and read more about its
mysteries, visit our website
196
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,497
at Getty dot edu slash IOCT.
197
00:10:59,074 --> 00:11:01,949
We’ve also got a listening
guide with discussion questions
198
00:11:02,029 --> 00:11:05,810
and related activities
there.This episode was
199
00:11:05,810 --> 00:11:08,877
written by Claire Hupy and
produced by Zoe Goldman.
200
00:11:09,328 --> 00:11:11,120
Brock Powell voiced the cabinet.
201
00:11:11,692 --> 00:11:15,839
Theme music, mixing, and sound
design by Alexandra Kalinowski.
202
00:11:16,261 --> 00:11:18,571
Christopher Sprinkle
is executive producer.
203
00:11:19,170 --> 00:11:22,664
Special thanks to curators
Anne-Lise Desmas and Miriam
204
00:11:22,672 --> 00:11:26,727
Schefzyk, as well as Rebekkah
Hart and conservator Arlen
205
00:11:26,805 --> 00:11:30,029
Heginbotham. These stories
are historical fiction.
206
00:11:30,246 --> 00:11:33,060
They’re based on historical
facts and deep research,
207
00:11:33,084 --> 00:11:35,919
but we’ve filled in the
gaps to make a good story.
208
00:11:36,506 --> 00:11:39,486
If you have questions about
what you’ve heard, write to us
209
00:11:39,561 --> 00:11:42,456
at podteam at Getty dot edu.
210
00:11:43,482 --> 00:11:44,708
Catch you next time.