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Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science
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and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman,
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and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford
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School of Medicine. Today my guest is doctor Sachin Panda.
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Doctor Sachin Panda is a professor and director of the
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Regulatory Biology Laboratory at the Salk Institute of Biological Studies.
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His laboratory has made numerous important contributions that impact mental health,
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physical health, and human performance. For instance, his laboratory discovered
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the neurons in the eye end neurons within the brain
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that regulate our so called circadian rhythms. Circadian rhythms are
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twenty four hour rhythms and everything from gene expression to
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the overall functioning of tissues, our levels of mood and alertness,
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our ability to sleep, appetite, and much much more. In addition,
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over the last decade, doctor Panda's laboratory has made critical
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discoveries in terms of how our patterns of eating over
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time impact our biology and our health. In particular, his
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laboratory pioneer discoveries related to so called intermittent fasting, also
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sometimes referred to as time restricted feeding. Today, doctor Panda
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and I discuss how our circadian behaviors, everything from when
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we wake up to when we view light, to when
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we avoid viewing light, to when we eat and what
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we eat, and when we socialize and how we socialize,
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impacts our biology and our psychology, and how all of
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that has a strong impact on our health. During today's discussion,
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you will learn how restricting your feeding to specific periods
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within each twenty four hour cycle, or perhaps even exploring
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longer patterns of fasting and eating cycles, can impact everything
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from the health of your liver to your gut to
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your brain, and how all of that impacts things like
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mood and your ability to perform cognitive work. Indeed, today's
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discussion goes deep into all aspects of intermittent fasting aka
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time restricted feeding. We talk about za basic science as
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well as as the recent clinical trials that have explored
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time restricted feeding in a diverse range of people, including men, women, children,
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people with diabetes, people who are otherwise healthy, and much
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much more. I'm quite aware that intermittent fasting is a
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topic of much debate these days. We go deep into
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that debate and by the end of today's discussion, you
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can be certain that you will have learned all the
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latest and all the details, all made very clear to
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you thanks to the incredible expertise, discovery, and clear communication
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of doctor Panda. As some of you may already know,
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doctor Panda has authored several important books on the topic
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of intermittent fasting and how it can benefit various aspects
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of health. Those books include The Circadian Code and a
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more recent book, The Circadian Diabetes Code, both of which
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we've provided links to in the show note captions. In addition,
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if any of you are interested in learning more about
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doctor Panda's work, including seeing his publications and reading those publications,
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or supporting his laboratory, you can do that by going
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to his laboratory website, which we have also linked in
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the show note captions. Before we begin, i'd like to
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emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and
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research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my
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desired and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information
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about science and science related tools to the general public,
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and keeping with that theme, i'd like to thank the
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sponsors of today's podcast, and now for my discussion with
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doctor Sachin Panda, Sachin doctor Panda. So good to see
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you again.
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Yeah, good to see you.
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We are colleagues still, but we used to be right
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across the street from one another.
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Yeah those days.
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Yeah, yeah, So I'm delighted that you're here. I think
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we're going to
Load full transcript
talk about a number of things, mainly
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intermittent fasting, time restricted feeding, and health, but also the
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many other things that you're doing. Just before we started recording,
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we were discussing your recent paper in Nature that involved
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recordings from post mortem human retina. So maybe if there's
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time at the end, we can get back to your
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lab has shown that it can essentially maintain or resurrect
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neurons from dead people in order to potentially and eventually
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provide transplants to rescue vision and the blind. So that's
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extremely exciting, but of course not the main focus of
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today's discussion, so I'll have to split it up. The
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first question I have is how am I supposed to
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define fasting and time restricted feeding? Meaning when I go
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to sleep every night, I'm not eating. So in some
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sense everybody is doing time restricted feeding to some degree
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or another. At what point can we start thinking about
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a pattern of eating. Is time restricted feeding so called
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intermittent fasting? Does it have to do with how regular
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one is about the start and stop times? How do
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you think about defining intermittent fasting time restrictive feeding? And
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maybe just to simplify the conversation, is one term more
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correct than the other in terms of describing this incredible
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pattern of feeding.
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Well, you know that interpreted fasting covers many high surb fasting. Actually,
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it started a long time ago and it's embedded into
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the history of caloric restriction. Almost one hundred years ago,
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people showed that if you reduce calorie intake in a rat,
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then that rat can leave for a long time. And
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in those experiments, the calories were reduced every single day,
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and that led to the idea that if we cut
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down our calories by twenty percent, say, then we can
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potentially live longer by doing two things. One is preventing
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is related disease or even if we follow us fall sick,
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maybe we can accelerate cure and keep the
repair mechanism
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going so that we can live longer. But it was
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very difficult to count calories every day and reduce maintain that.
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I must say that it's not that calorie restriction is impossible,
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we are not doing it. In fact, a lot of
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us we do count calories in our subconscious mind, and
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so every time you took out it you take out,
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we take out a soda bottle or something. I'm looking
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at it. Okay, sixty thirtyerochylocal we're doing that. So the
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point is it's it's we're doing subconsciously some kind of
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calorie counting. But reducing calorie by twenty to thirty percent
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every single day is not possible for many people. So
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then the idea came in mouse and rat experiment whether
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they can eat every other day, And in fact, this
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every other day feeding also led to very similar almost
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equivalent health improvement as continuous calory restriction. So then the
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idea was, well every other day is a little bit
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hard for humans, but just imagine I'd just get to
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eat only one day and then another day. Then the
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idea cam, well, for humans, can they eat less for
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one or two days in the week. So that led
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to this five two diet where people who can eat
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for five days and then two days that have to
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reduce calories. So that's also intermittently people are fasting. Then
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as you know, Walter Longo also came with this idea
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that period fasting, maybe four or five days in every
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month or two months three months, you can fast or
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reduce gallery. And he also found many benefits of calory restriction.
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Was there were those studies on humans.
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Many of the studies started it in mice, but alternate
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day fasting five to two and Walter's period fast fasting,
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all of them have now been done in humans. Not
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for longevity, of course, because I cannot do those for
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a long time, but for weight maintenance, for reducing some
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signs of aging or reversing those things have been done.
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So all of them have been done in humans, mostly
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healthy humans and in some cases people with pre diabetes
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or some aspects of metabolies. So that led to the
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idea that all these forms are fasting in which the
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total calory can take on any given day is reduced
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for one or more days in a week, a month.
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That became that umbrella tom became intimittent fasting. So if
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you look up the scientific literature, most intermittent fasting involves
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intentionally reducing calories for at least one or two days
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in a week, or a few days in a month.
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So when we publish time restricted feeding, the initial mouse
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experiments and even now most of the mouse experiments, we
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want to test what is the impact of time restriction
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versus calorie restriction. So in these experiments, we don't reduce
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calorie on any day of mouth's life. So the mice
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is the same number of calories as they add libtum
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fed mice, but still they see health benefit. So that's
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why we call it time restricted feeding. But since it
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involves living without food for several hours for some people,
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which is it can be very difficult. The initial experiments
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was done, they were done for eight hours of feeding
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and sixteen hours of fasting. That kind of became popular
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and so that's why people use the same term as
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intermittent fasting. And now if you say in timentent fasting
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and popular literature or popular media, then people usually refer
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to time restricted So now coming back to how do
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you define time restricted feeding. So the way we have
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been trying to define a experimentally and also in literature
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is trying to confine all your energy intake from solid
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and liquid food combined within a consistent window of eight
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to twelve hours. Because that's something that duebl Of course,
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people have done time distribute treating with four hours six hours,
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and some people even try to eat everything within two
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hours one mill a day. But the point is those
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are not feasible to maintain for a very long time
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for a lot of people.
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One question about the six hour versus eight hour versus
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twelve hour feeding window. Is it important that the feeding
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window begin and end at the same time more or less?
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Yeah?
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And if so, how much flexibility is there? So? For instance,
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I'm somebody that I am not terribly hungry in the morning.
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I like to drink water, usually some caffeine and electricals
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in the period before my first meal, and my first
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meal always lands sometime between eleven and eleven am and
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twelve noon. There are exceptions. Occasionally I'll have a breakfast,
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a proper breakfast, as it's called. I guess it would
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be improper if you're in a benefacting for me, But
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typically eleven am or noon is when I first eat,
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and my last bite of food is typically around thirty
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nine pm. That's what works for me, is that consistency
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affording me any benefit. And let's just leave aside total
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cloric number macronutrients, plant based meat, et cetera. But is
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there any benefit to shortening that feeding window that we
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are aware of, or extending that feeding window, or being
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even more rigid about the start and end of that
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feeding window.
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Yeah, so the start of the feeding window. That's interesting
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because the concept of time to st feeding when I
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describe animals studies, it's treeding. For humans, it's eating. So
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the concept actually came from the signs of Cicadian rhythm.
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So that means our body has an internal timetable that's
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present in every cell in every organ that pre programs
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many molecular aspects of the cells that leads to physiology
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and all that stuff. So that essentially there is a
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predetermined timetable for every cell, every organ to do certain
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things at a certain time. And the Cicadian clocks, as
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you and I know, are more sensitive to light. Light
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is the most dominant time giver, so for example, when
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daylight saving time changes, or when we travel from one
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time zone to another time zone, we feel kind of
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crappy because our daily activities out of from our internal clock.
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So that was known for a very long time, but
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then around the year two thousand and two thousand and two,
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there is a famous experiment by Uli Sibler from Switzerland.
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What he did, he just fed the mice at the
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wrong time. Mice had knocked on all their night feeders,
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and when he fed mice during daytime, the liver clock,
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instead of following its own routine, liver clock actually started
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following food. So that means by changing our feeding time
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we can change we can tune our liver clock. And subsequently,
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the same experiment has been repeated many times and have
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been We repeated that in two thousand and nine and
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we figured out yes, actually outside this brain center called
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super chismatic nucleus or SCN, which is consider the master
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circadian clock, almost rest of the brain even follows when
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we eat. And that came out from Pere Shambon's lab
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in Europe. Whether the systematically looked at even places that
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are very close to the ACM for those who are
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who know, or some medial hypothlamas, paraventricular nuclears, all of
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this within a couple of or four or five millimeters
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of the an but they were following food cube amazing.
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So then and now, if we think about it, so
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for example, when the daylight seven time changes just one
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hour change or one hour change in alignment between our
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internal time and external time leads to kind of feeling
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groggy and feeling not at a peak for four months,
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for one or two days. So the rule of thumb
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is when the time giver changes by one hour than
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our internal clock takes at least a day to catch up.
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So that means if you're flying from LA to New York,
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you're moving through three times Jones. Then on an hour age,
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it will take three days to catch up with the
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New York times. For some people it can be even slower,
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and for some people it can be two days. But
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the bottom line is, yes, there is a de synchrony.
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So then what does it mean for the body. So
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one of the functions of clock is to anticipate when
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you're going to wake up. For example, so the blood
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presser slightly goes up, our heart red goes up, breathing
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goes up. Similarly for food, almost every organ that is
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involved in feeding or eating digestion, all of them have clocks.
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So even from saliva production that is the first phase
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of our digestion, to creation of all the digestive juice
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and the stomach, and then I have jerson of nutrient
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then liver, metabolism, everything the whole village expects when you're
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supposed to eat, and they're getting ready for you to
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eat their first meal after fasting for a long time.
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So that's why it's breaking the fast or breakfast. And
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when that time changes, when you change it by two
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or three hours from one day to another, than sometimes
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are like, oh, food didn't come, maybe will come at
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a wrong time. We were at the wrong time, and
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then they'll track the new eating times. So suppose that
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one day you have been eating every day at eight am.
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I eat at eight en, So.
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Is that when you start? Yeah, your when do you? When?
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Does your feeding windows shut?
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Six pm? So I eat for around ten hours, okay,
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and then one day if I switch to ten am,
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then what happens is a clock is singing, Well, the
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food didn't arrive at eight, but it arrived at ten.
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Maybe tomorrow the food will arrive somewhere between eight and ten,
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so we'll be ready around nine. So then the next day,
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if I come back and eat at eight o'clock, then
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I may eat, but my clock is not ready to
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digest that food. So that's why this idea is you
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have to be consistent to take advantage of this anticipatory
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activity of our clock in different systems to get the
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best out of it.
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Is there evidence that those anticipatory systems, as they relate
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to digestion help us better assimilate our food. I would
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imagine so, I mean, if you have the gastric juices
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that are going to help digest the proteins fats and
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carbohydrates and already deployed at the time when you eat,
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I could imagine that food will be better utilized than
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if you don't. So, in other words, what is the
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advantage of having these anticipatory signals in terms of potential
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health benefits?
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The anticipatory signal is really important from even from waking up.
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The reason why many people feel not ready completely when
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they wake up to an alarm clock because the alarm
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clock wakes you up, but your body is not prepared.
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So that sleepiness after waking up to an alarm clock
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is due to our body is not prepared for that.
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And then the best example is when the when the
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daylight saving time changes, particularly when we have to wake
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up one hour early. What happens people who have underlying
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heart condition when they're waking up when the body is
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not ready or heart is not ready, and all of
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it on. Their heart has to start pumping a little
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bit harder. Then there is chance of heart attack. And
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in fact, people have looked at hospital records and that
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they find that on those days and there is a
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sharp rise in.
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Heart attacks in a car accident and.
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Car accidents too because your brain is not coordinated, so
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you cannot make those fine decisions. So that's a great
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example of anticipatory activity. But coming back to digestion, one
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thing is, and this is something that many people might
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have experienced, there are many rhythms in our digestive system,
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and one of the rhythms is, look, our intestine has
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this peristaltic function, so it kind of contracts and expands,
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and that moves. For food doesn't move due to gravity,
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so it goes back and forth. And that peristaltic action
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actually slows down at night, a few hours after our
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last meal. And so that's why when people eat late
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at night, for example, then that food doesn't get digested
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because there is not enough digestive juice. First thing. And second,
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even if it gets digested in the store market, it
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doesn't move properly. So then the next morning people get
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up and think. Of course, people consume some alcohol very
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often and then they think that this is hangover. But
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those who don't consume alcohol, then they have the food
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hangover because it doesn't digest. So that's one extreme example
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where food at the wrong time can so healthy, for
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it at the wrong time can be crapped or junk.
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Yeah. I've experienced that where if I've worked late or
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I couldn't eat dinner or something, and then I get home,
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I always debate whether or not to try and sleep.
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But if I'm too hungry, oftentimes it's challenging. And so
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for me, sometimes consuming something that at least seems easily digestible,
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like yogurt or something in a liquid form, is better
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for me than if I eat a meal. I've made
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the mistake of going to the refrigerator being super hungry
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and eating a bunch of food at ten or eleven
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PM and then falling asleep. And indeed the sleep, if
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I'm tired enough, can be quite deep. But the next
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morning I feel just completely physically and cognitively weighed down.
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So I think what you just described makes a lot
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of sense. So if someone were to select a feeding
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window regardless of whether or not it falls into classic
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intermitt and fasting time. Restricted feeding sounds like eating your
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first bite of food and eating your last bite of
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food at more or less the same time each day
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has benefits. I have this question you mentioned feeding versus eating,
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and I think it's actually not just a grammatical semantic issue.
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And here's why we tend to think about when you
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take your first bite of food and then when you
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take your last bite of food. But of course food's
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digest at different rates. More fad in there is going
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to digest, make carbohydrates digest slower, etc. I mean, there's
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all these adjustments to the glycemic index and so forth
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with foods in combination. Is it better to think about
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not eating but your fed state and blood sugar? So,
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for instance, I often get asked on social media does
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blank break a fast? And so I like to think
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about it scientifically, like, okay, is does plain water break
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a fast?
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No?
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Does air break a fast?
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No?
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Does one grain of sugar of sucrose break a fast? Well?
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Probably not? But does one teaspoon of sugar break a fast?
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Well you could say yes, but transiently like so, I mean,
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when we're talking about breaking a fast, are we talking
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about a rise in blood glucose or are there molecular
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signals downstream of a rise in blood glucose that cannot
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be reversed. In other words, if I'm gonna eat my
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first meal every day at noon, and I'm gonna eat
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my last bite of food at eight pm, and at
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nine am, for whatever reason, I have coffee with one
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teaspoon of sugar in it, I suppose in the strictest sense,
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I've broken my fast. But maybe by if I went
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for a hard run that morning, maybe by nine thirty am,
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I'm back in a quote unquote fasted state. So what
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is the fasted state really, Because when I'm eating at
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eight pm, just to give another example, i start fasting
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at eight oh one, perhaps, but I have my blood
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glucose as elevate, so I'm not really fasted. I'm fed.
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It's just that I'm not eating the verb right, Okay,
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So again, I don't want to get overly detailed just
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for sake of getting detailed. But I think a lot
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of the confusion out there about what breaks a fast
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is related specifically to this issue, which is, if I
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eat a whole pizza after sitting around all day, it's
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very different than if I eat a whole pizza after
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having run a twenty six mile marathon. That very different
382
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metabolically speaking. So how should people think about fasted versus fed?
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Can we be mildly fasted versus severe fasted? Can we
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be fed ish versus very fed? Anyway, I'll stop asking
385
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questions now, but because they all relate to the same theme.
386
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:01.519
Yeah, now there's a very interesting question. And then, unfortunately,
387
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as you can, as you have you might have seen
388
00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:09.119
in life, the most obvious questions are often unanswered because
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it's so hard to do these damn experiments Because if
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you really want to address this in humans, you are
391
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to bring humans put them in isolation. Just like you said,
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I can now imagine planning five or six different experiments.
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Each experiment should involve eight or ten volunteers each gender, sex,
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and then do it. So it's difficult. So now let's
395
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:35.759
go back to see how do we Let's dissect it
396
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.440
in terms of saying indirect calorimetry. So, for example, indirect
397
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:45.480
calorimetry is based on this principle that what our oxygen
398
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.200
we breathe in and carbon dioxide we breathe out, if
399
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.319
we can measure these two, then we can figure out
400
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.880
whether our body in total. We are not saying whether
401
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.200
it's the liver, got or fat or muscle in total,
402
00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:05.680
whether it's consuming glucose or fat as energy source. The
403
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:10.480
idea is when we when we are without food for
404
00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:15.920
several hours, then ideally our body will tap onto glycogen
405
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.839
first and then to a little bit of fat, and
406
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.720
then when the body is mostly running on fat, than
407
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:24.880
that ratio of ZO two to oxygen will come two
408
00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:30.400
point seven. But what is interesting,
we can do these
409
00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:32.839
experiments in mice. So we can go to mice and
410
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.359
I ask, okay, so what happens in mice? So in
411
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.920
mice are a little bit very different because mice are
412
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:43.839
not simply little people. There, the metabolism is different. They
413
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:49.640
store relatively less glycogen than humans do in terms of
414
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:55.480
total metabolism. So they overnight within twelve to fourteen hours
415
00:25:55.799 --> 00:26:00.000
the area respiratory exchange ratio. This ratio will go from
416
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:04.599
one when they're consuming mostly glucose or carbohydrate as energy source,
417
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.720
it will slow down slowly go to point seven point
418
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seventy five. After twelve to fourteen hours, they are kind
419
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:16.880
of mostly running on fat, so now as we give
420
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:21.400
them food within ten or fifteen minutes, they're not actually
421
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.960
consuming couple of grams of food. They might have consumed
422
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.799
say one hundred or two hundred milligram of that child so,
423
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.559
which is less than say, five percent of the food,
424
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.839
and then the area will immediately begin to rise, as
425
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:40.119
if that small amount of food stopped that fat burning
426
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:44.839
process and cranked up the carbohydrate burning process.
427
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.519
When you say fat burning process, you mean body fat
428
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:50.640
store being burned, right, not dietary fat. Correct.
429
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.720
Yeah, so it's all body fat, means That's why I said,
430
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:56.440
we don't know where that fat is being burned, because
431
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.279
we're just measuring how how much mice is bidding in
432
00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:02.880
and out. So for example, it can be from the skin,
433
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.880
so subcitten you is fat or belly.
434
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:07.839
Fat, but not dietary fat.
435
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.839
No, by that time, the dietary fat is already observed
436
00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:13.759
and digested, and hopefully it's sitting in the liver or
437
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:17.559
art the postissious somewhere. But it's the fattest body fat. Yes,
438
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:18.279
thank you. Yeah.
439
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:20.359
Yeah. The reason I ask is that nowadays I think
440
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:22.920
more than half of the battles about nutrition that I
441
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.200
see online relate to this issue where I won't name names,
442
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.359
but someone will come along and say low carbohydrate diet
443
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:34.319
allows you to burn more fat, and the more nuanced
444
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:37.720
people out there will say, well, that's true, but you're
445
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.119
also talking about dietary fat. You know, the word fat
446
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.799
can confuse people. I realize you're not doing that. You
447
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:44.759
are certainly not one of the people guilty of doing this.
448
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:47.119
But indeed, you eat more fat, you'll burn more fat,
449
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.480
but that doesn't mean you'll burn more body fat. In fact,
450
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.319
I think the data say that under conditions of cloric restriction,
451
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:55.799
you'll actually burn less. Hope I don't. I'll probably get
452
00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:59.640
I'll probably get pitchforks sent through the mail toward me
453
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:02.359
and on that one. But I think that's true. Whereas
454
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:05.000
you know, people who consume carbohydrate can still burn body
455
00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:07.480
fat even though the majority of the fuel they're burning
456
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:08.440
is from carbohydrate.
457
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:11.839
So here, in this case, for example, from mice, we
458
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.279
know that as soon as they start eating, the area
459
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.359
goes up. Coming back to your question, what would be
460
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.960
ideal for us to do the experiment would be okay,
461
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.839
So we'll go back to that and then give the
462
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.839
mouse maybe one hundred milligram of food and mouse runs
463
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.119
around in the case and then will continue to measure
464
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.119
to see how long it takes for the mouse to
465
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:35.839
come back. And then so that's one aspect. So now
466
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:40.400
let's see, let's stay on this, and then I'll come
467
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.880
back and talk about non caloric food and whether that
468
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:49.079
is considered. So there is a famous experiment that was
469
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:53.279
published last year by Jota Kahasi's lab, and it came
470
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:58.279
out in Science, and that relates to caloric restriction, and
471
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:02.440
we kind of started with this idea. We started discussing
472
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:05.720
that the rat experiments were done with calorie restriction and
473
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.759
researchers gave reduced calorie conjunction by twenty person or thirty
474
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.720
percent and gave that food the rats and then subsequently
475
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.759
mice and they all lived longer. What is interesting is
476
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:25.759
and all those experiments, the researchers came and gave this
477
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.519
bulluts of food at one time, whereas they had livitum
478
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.359
fed mice or rats. They had access to food all
479
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.680
the time, so they're eating all the time. And then
480
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:40.079
these rats were given twenty personal less and what happens
481
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.519
is these mice or rats, they're not going to take
482
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:46.319
that less food, which is rest on now and just
483
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:49.160
eat a little bit of lunch and then snack after
484
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.480
three hours or snack after three hours. They gobble up
485
00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:55.279
all that food within two to three hours, maximum four hours,
486
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:56.440
food is gone.
487
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:58.759
So they're sort of on the OMAD diet, the one
488
00:29:58.799 --> 00:29:59.400
meal a day.
489
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.079
Yeah, they're almost like in one miller days, three to
490
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:06.240
four hours food is gone. Or you can say they're
491
00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:11.039
on four hours eating of feeding and twenty hours fasting.
492
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:16.359
So then the question became, well, the benefit of caloric
493
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:20.440
restriction as we know, is it due to reduced calorie
494
00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:25.000
or time restricted feeding or timing? There is a timing
495
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:27.319
component to it that they're eating all of that within
496
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.359
three to four hours and then there is a long fasting.
497
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.400
And this is a difficult question to answer because now
498
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.519
you have to ask the poor grad students or technicians
499
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.119
to come and split that food into eight or ten
500
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:44.640
or fifteen different small persons and then give them to
501
00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:49.400
mice in every two hours. So Jota Kahasi who actually
502
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.839
published the first paper in twenty seventeen showing that most
503
00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:56.920
calorial restrictions study, I mean he used the protocol that
504
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:02.039
was used by calori restriction field. It actually creates a
505
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:05.880
condition of time restriction. So he showed that and then
506
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:09.200
he went back and worked with engineers to come up
507
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.839
with a smart cage where he could actually tell he
508
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:17.240
could program how much food is given to mice at
509
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:21.920
what time of the day or night, completely programmed. So
510
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:25.079
then he took this for example, suppose say they add
511
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:29.319
livitum fed mice. It's five grams of chow in a day,
512
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.839
and if you want to reduce calories by twenty percent,
513
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.440
then the cr mouse should get four grams of food
514
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:43.000
and it divided this into nine or ten meals and
515
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:47.240
then gave them in every ninety minutes. So in this
516
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:52.039
case they're i think small meals throughout day and night,
517
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.319
so there is no fasting. So you can say that, well,
518
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:57.279
this mouse actually is not getting into fasting because in
519
00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:02.440
every few hours is getting some food. And then he
520
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.160
measured how long the mouse is going to live and
521
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:10.519
he used account means this is a very standard protocol.
522
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:13.440
People count how many mice a dying on which day
523
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:16.720
and then examine them to see whether they died because
524
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:19.000
there was an accident or they actually there was a
525
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:23.799
natural cause, and then they calculate at the end what
526
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:30.400
is the half life. So fifty percent survival because that's
527
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:33.000
on an hourage. That's a good indicator because if there
528
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.880
is an outlier that will live for a long time,
529
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.359
then that can skew. So what was interesting was they'd
530
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.920
livet umfared mice. Of course they lived a certain number
531
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:46.839
of days, and then this caloric restricted mice that never
532
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.160
got into super fasting but kind of eating snacking throughout
533
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.440
day and night. It also lived ten person extra ten
534
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.039
person longer, so that means caloric restriction extended lifespan by
535
00:32:59.079 --> 00:32:59.599
ten person.
536
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:04.319
I wonder about this because recently, you know, there's been
537
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.119
there were a bunch of news headlines about intermittent fasting,
538
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:11.160
and frankly, I was frustrated. If you looked at one
539
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:15.640
major news outlet, they would say time restricted feeding affords
540
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:20.920
no additional benefit beyond coloric restriction for weight loss. Then
541
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:26.640
another popular press venue, let's call it that same study
542
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:32.559
described as time restricted feeding doesn't work, right, And then
543
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.559
another one, maybe someplace even more extreme, you know, time
544
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:42.519
restricted feeding only beneficial because of coloric restriction or something
545
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.079
like that. So
you've essentially got our three different interpretations
546
00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:49.160
of the same data, all of which are well, two
547
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:50.920
of which are true, one of which is false in
548
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:53.839
my opinion. But what I think people take away from
549
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.400
that is, oh, time restricted feeding isn't valuable, which is
550
00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.319
not the case. I think for many people, it's a
551
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.960
convenient way to eat because at least for people like me,
552
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:06.160
it's simpler to designate between portions of my day when
553
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.280
I'm eating, in portions of my day when I'm not eating,
554
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.880
as opposed to eat portion control. For other people, portion
555
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.119
control can work, but all of that is related to
556
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:19.079
either maintenance or loss of weight. None of it deals
557
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:24.480
with the potential health benefits independent of weight loss, and
558
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:28.719
so I think that if we can segment those out. Obviously,
559
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:33.000
in humans, it's hard to know if a given treatment
560
00:34:33.079 --> 00:34:35.000
or experiment is extending life because you don't really know
561
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:37.840
how long people would live anyway, right, Whereas with mice
562
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.480
you have some sense of when the mortality was likely
563
00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:44.360
to occur. So what can we say about time restricted
564
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:48.320
feeding and longevity in terms of biomarkers or in terms
565
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:51.800
of any other indication that people who start and stop
566
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.639
their feeding when at a consistent time somewhere between eight
567
00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:58.960
and twelve hours per twenty four hour cycle are tilting
568
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:02.559
the scales towards the living longer as opposed to living shorter.
569
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:05.920
This example of this news article that you mentioned is
570
00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:10.119
really interesting because that relates to Joe's joatakas his study
571
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:13.239
because I described that if you split calories and eat
572
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:16.119
throughout the day, throughout day and night, then the mice
573
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:19.920
lived ten percent extra. But if you now give mouse
574
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:24.320
the same calorie restricted diet and fit them during daytime,
575
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.920
whether within twelve hours or two hours, then the mice
576
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.400
lived ten percent extra beyond that.
577
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:35.320
Yeah, So so okay, so let me make sure I understand.
578
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:39.599
So that so that I make sure I understand
if
579
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:41.719
you take a certain number of calories and you distribute
580
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:45.719
them throughout the twenty four hour cycle, it's cloric restriction.
581
00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:49.440
The mice will live ten percent longer. If you, however,
582
00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:53.519
restrict that to the active cycle of so for humans
583
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:58.599
the daytime, then twenty percent. Then they live twenty percent
584
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.519
long twenty percent. So it's not just total chloric intake. Yeah,
585
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.320
Meaning it's not just important to be sub maintenance and
586
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.199
calories for sake of longevity. It also is important as
587
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:11.760
to when in the twenty four hour cycle you eat
588
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:13.079
those calories. Do I have that right?
589
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.039
So now that's still this story is not over because
590
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.320
this mice work fed during daytime when they're not supposed
591
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:20.679
to eat.
592
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.400
That's right, So for us, it would be the equivalent
593
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.320
of being on the night shift and only eating at night,
594
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:28.119
but a subchloric, sub maintenance calorie diet. I guess that's
595
00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:28.920
the right way to say it.
596
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:32.679
But twenty fared mice during nighttime when they're supposed to eat,
597
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.440
and they're seeing getting the same number of calories within
598
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:40.159
twelve hours or two hours, then the mice lift thirty
599
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.199
five percent longer than the control.
600
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:45.880
Thirty five percent longer. So scale to human life span,
601
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.800
which you know, we don't know, but a thirty five
602
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:51.960
percent longer would mean that, and again no one knows
603
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.760
but humans. Now, what is the average mortality in the
604
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:56.280
United States?
605
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:59.440
Somewhere around Yeah, so it's surrounded. It used to be
606
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:02.679
eating our slowly reduced a little bit because of COVID.
607
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:04.079
But let's take eighty.
608
00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:07.039
Okay, so people are then now living somewhere between twenty
609
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.679
five and thirty five years longer. I'm putting some error bars.
610
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that was really profound. But now
611
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:20.480
you pointed out biomarker and other stuff. So now if
612
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.320
you look at any given time within that experiment, and
613
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:27.559
actually Joe went back and had a separate cohort of
614
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.639
mice very similar and so that he could take tissue
615
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.039
samples and of course in this case you have to
616
00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:37.159
sacrifice the mouse. And he looked for he did a
617
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:43.400
lot of molecular analysis with non markers for example, hemoglobina
618
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.360
one C eqivalant or glucus control cholesterol, all this stuff.
619
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:52.559
He could not find anything that predicted the benefit of
620
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:56.679
calorie restriction. So that means in this experiment, whatever we
621
00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:01.199
know so far the predictor of longevity, none of them
622
00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:07.079
could predict whether these see our only mouse which at
623
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.599
throughout day and night, that mouse is going to live
624
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:13.800
less than the night fed mouse that was going to
625
00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:15.800
live twenty five percent extra.
626
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:18.880
Does that mean that there are biomarkers relates to longevity
627
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:20.320
that we just haven't discovered yet.
628
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:23.559
Yeah, So that's exactly. So that means what about we
629
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:29.239
know so far about biomarkers those he could not use
630
00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:32.239
to predict. Maybe there was a lot of noise, Maybe
631
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:34.880
he wanted he had to use more number of mice
632
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:38.280
to get that, because you know, biomarkers are not going
633
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:41.119
to predict in every instance, so there is some error.
634
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:45.119
What is also very interesting is if you look at
635
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:47.920
the body wet and body composition of all these mice,
636
00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:50.480
there's no difference in body wet and body.
637
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:54.400
Composition across all these different all these groups. So it
638
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:58.400
doesn't matter when they ate, provided they were submit sub
639
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:02.639
cal maintenance calorie and so less fewer calories than is
640
00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:05.159
required to maintain their weight. It didn't matter what pattern
641
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.480
of eating they were the same way. Yeah, so that
642
00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:09.679
in many ways seems to mimic the human studies where
643
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:11.360
they say, look, it doesn't really matter whether or not
644
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.760
you use cloric restriction, or or you start your feeding
645
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:16.519
window in the morning, or start your feeding window in
646
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:20.599
the evening, or you or you portion control for sake
647
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:22.840
of weight weight loss, because they're.
648
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:24.840
Taking a snatch sort of that. And then another thing
649
00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.639
with the human study that we are referring to here
650
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:34.000
that in that human study, people are actually already eating
651
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:39.519
within ten hours window habitually when they selected these people
652
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:43.320
to have them enroll in the study, so they were
653
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:46.880
already eating for ten hours and fasting for fourteen hours.
654
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:50.639
All participants had to reduce that caloric intake and they're
655
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:55.920
reduced by almost twenty five percent. The CR group continued
656
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:59.239
with ten hours hitting window, and the CR plus time
657
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:02.199
restricted group had to eat the same number of calories
658
00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:02.960
within eight hours.
659
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:04.599
So it's just a two hour difference.
660
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.519
It's just a two hours difference, Okay, So.
661
00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:08.360
That people I just want to make sure people can understand.
662
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:10.639
So in this human study, which is the one that
663
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:14.639
I felt that the popular press venues all except one venue,
664
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.119
got either semi wrong or badly wrong in terms of
665
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:22.360
their conclusion. That was my interpretation anyway, was that either
666
00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:25.360
people came into the study eating basically in a ten
667
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:27.440
hour feeding window, which goes back to my first question,
668
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:28.760
which is that most people are not eating in the
669
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.880
middle of the night where if they're on shift work,
670
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.079
and they are, then they're sleeping during the day anyway,
671
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:34.719
so they're eating in a ten to twelve hour feeding
672
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.760
window anyway. So you're saying they either did caloric restriction
673
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:41.039
portion control within a ten hour window, or another group
674
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:46.480
within the study eight sub maintenance calories, so coloric restriction
675
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:50.239
CR as we're calling it the acronym CR, but restrict
676
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:51.800
to that to an eight hour feeding window, and they
677
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.320
didn't see any difference in terms of weight loss. Yeah,
678
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:56.599
but it's not all that surprising, right, I mean, if
679
00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:58.320
it's just a two hour difference.
680
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:01.000
Yeah, exactly. So we have done that experiment in mice
681
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:04.519
and we don't see difference in not only weight loss,
682
00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:07.679
many other markers. And I
was telling you about this
683
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:12.079
Jota Kaas's paper where I told you that he allowed
684
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.239
the mice to eat within two hours or twelve hours
685
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:18.920
subcloric diet two or twelve.
686
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:20.960
Two or twelve, Yeah, that's traumatic.
687
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:24.400
But still he did not see change in longevity even
688
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:28.840
within those two So that means when you do caloric
689
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:33.000
restriction and then at least for mouse, and you are
690
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:37.719
within twelve hours window, that's that is giving the mice
691
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:42.840
the best benefit, the optimum benefit, and two three or
692
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.880
five or twelve per mouse doesn't matter at least for longevity.
693
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.679
Can we conclude for humans that whether or not a
694
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:53.480
feeding window is four hours, six hours, eight hours, or
695
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:58.159
twelve doesn't matter provided the calories are are similar or same.
696
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:00.880
Well, I won't go to that extra ten because we
697
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.559
don't know many of these particularly we don't know how
698
00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:09.239
this sort of eating window will affect both sexes because
699
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.320
you know, we always think many of the mouse experiments,
700
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:14.679
even that I told you about those are done only
701
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:15.320
in mal mice.
702
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.960
But that should be changing, right because the NIH I
703
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:19.960
know this because I'm on study section, which is just
704
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.239
a bunch of people who who review grants, is that
705
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:26.719
every grant now has to include sex as biological variable.
706
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.320
It's hard to get away with. Well, rather, I should
707
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:31.920
say it the way it should be stayed, which is
708
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:37.000
people are required and should want to look at these
709
00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:40.800
phenomenon in male and female mice. Yes, especially if there
710
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:41.679
are differences.
711
00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:45.559
So in this case there are many emins. There was
712
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.159
also another people in time listory refitting that also came
713
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:54.639
out a big paper showing that the thermogenesis was accounting
714
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:57.840
for loss and fat mass and time listory referred mice.
715
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:01.480
That was also done only in male mice. So this
716
00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:04.320
is we are paying attention to it. So we are
717
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.360
now doing all of our studies in male and female
718
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:09.840
and we do see big differences between male and female.
719
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:14.280
Coming back to humans, what typically happens is when you're
720
00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:16.800
trying to do four hours or six hours of time
721
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:21.480
restored to eating, people will inadvertently reduce their caloric intake just.
722
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:23.800
Because of gut volume. I tried one nail per day,
723
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.039
and I felt like I was eating so much at
724
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.320
that one sitting that it led to a lot of
725
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:31.800
gastric distress and then at tired after the meal. And
726
00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:34.079
part of the reason I like to do time restricted
727
00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.159
feeding is I have more energy, and certainly in the
728
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:40.800
fasted state, I feel more energized, especially if I'm ingesting
729
00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:42.280
a little caffeine or something like that.
730
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:48.920
So people will reduce energy intake. And then some people
731
00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:53.400
who are more active, they can actually unconsciously they may
732
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:57.199
be spending more energy in the physical activity and basel
733
00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.599
metabolic read all of this combined than how M was
734
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.119
there eating, and that can have a very advers efect
735
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:06.599
and long term. Because we know that this energy deficit
736
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.559
and impact, there is a scientific term for that. It's
737
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:15.159
called REDS. Relative energy deficit in sports.
738
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:17.360
Relative energy deficit in sports.
739
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:23.000
Okay, yeah, because nearly forty of athletes, not the NFL guys,
740
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:25.960
but you know a lot of people who do track
741
00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:31.400
and field, and nearly forty percent of ATHLETs actually experience
742
00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:34.360
this red REDS without knowing.
743
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.199
Can male and female athletes both experience REDS, So it's
744
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:41.679
REDS r E D S ADD relative energy relative energy
745
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:45.800
deficit in sports. Interesting, is the first I've heard this acronym.
746
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:48.880
We have a new acronym, folks. This is good to
747
00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:51.800
add to it a list of other acronyms. But so
748
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.880
males and females can experience it. So in females, I've
749
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:01.000
heard that REDS can lead to emin a rear so
750
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:03.559
loss of men of the menstrual cycle.
751
00:45:03.719 --> 00:45:08.000
Yeah, so that's so common, that so prevalent that in fact,
752
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:11.960
many women, many female ATHLETs, they take it for granted
753
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.000
that yes, if they are more active, then they will
754
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:17.079
lose their menstrual cycle, which is which may be common,
755
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.840
but it's not normal or optimum for health.
756
00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:25.360
And even if they don't want to get pregnant. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
757
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.480
We had an expert on female hormones come on it
758
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.239
and say the very same thing that regular cycling is
759
00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:34.519
a very of ovulatory menstrual cycle is important to try
760
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:36.440
and maintain.
761
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.440
Yeah, and so that's one. But then what is really
762
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:46.880
concerning is it does affect bone health. And in this state,
763
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:50.440
people actually over a long period of time, the loose
764
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:54.239
bone mass and the bone also becomes more prone to injury.
765
00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:00.440
Microfracture and fractures. So again it's a risk. Means, if
766
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:02.679
some people are trying to eat within very short time
767
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:05.920
and they're physically active, that happens and it also has
768
00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:10.960
impact on means. The revision why these women are losing
769
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:17.760
men's Roul cycle is the hPG axis is disrupted hypothalamous
770
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:24.239
petitary gonadal axis and it starts in May, starting offstream
771
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:28.039
at hypothalamas are petuitary, so that means that HPA axis
772
00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:32.840
hypothalamos pituitary and adrenal axis may also get disrupted. One
773
00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:36.280
of the symptoms of THREATS is also depressed on anxiety
774
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:41.440
bipolar like symptoms. And we know that many many athletes
775
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.440
experience that. We think that well this this may be
776
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.440
just peer pressure that always trying to compete, and we
777
00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:49.960
know there are unfortunately there are a few athletes who
778
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.480
just can't cope it and many attempted suicide or suicide.
779
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:58.920
So this is a serious issue and there's also another
780
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:01.280
new topic in the life to come up with a
781
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.119
mouse model of rats and then study it. But this
782
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.440
is one risk why we should not reduce our eating
783
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:12.480
interval to two to one meal or very short time
784
00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:16.639
because it can have adverse arty fact that we don't
785
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:20.599
know now maybe in future will figure out when we
786
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:24.800
systematically study them. There are studies that are published showing
787
00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.800
four hours and six hours time restrict ed eiting has
788
00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:32.000
benefits on weight loss, but those are on healthy individuals
789
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:35.679
and they are in the studies so they, you know,
790
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:39.880
the study team to get we're already monitoring. They make
791
00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:43.239
sure that there is no certain wetlass or weight loss
792
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:47.960
below some safety level. So those are very different from
793
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:51.719
regular people who are who maybe even normal weight or
794
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.519
even within the healthy range. If they do, then they
795
00:47:56.559 --> 00:47:59.800
can potentially So that's why what we think is eight
796
00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:03.039
to ten hours maybe the ideal spot to begin with.
797
00:48:03.880 --> 00:48:09.000
And once you're physically active and you are also spending
798
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:12.360
a lot of energy in physical activity or sports, you
799
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:14.960
can even go up to twelve hours. Because in mice
800
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:18.239
we have done that experiment up to twelve hours, they
801
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:20.800
do get a lot of benefits, not all, but so
802
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:23.400
this is twelve hours of twelve hours of hitting, twelve
803
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:28.920
hours of pasting ye. In humans, again, nobody has done
804
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:33.440
systematically twelve hours, but there was one study in Europe
805
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:37.280
from tin High collect Lab and tin High and I
806
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.599
we collaborate so they used our miccdian clock app. This
807
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:43.920
is a research app we developed just to This is
808
00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:48.800
mostly used in time restricted eating studies. And he had
809
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:52.920
nearly I think he started with two hundred Swiss participants,
810
00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.280
but then at the end he selected and took very
811
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:59.599
small number of groups, people who are very meticulous about
812
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:03.519
recording all their food. It divided them into useual feeding,
813
00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:05.960
whatever they wanted to eat, whenever they wanted to eat,
814
00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:10.880
and they were given the advice of Swiss nutrition advice
815
00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:15.679
that's given to improve health and reduced blot bookers, almost
816
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:19.320
like diabetes prehention program in the US. And then the
817
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.679
other group was given advice to eat within twelve hours.
818
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.519
This was very early on in time rustory eating and
819
00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:29.800
we thought that the mice for getting some benefit. Let's
820
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:33.840
try whether twelve hours has any benefit. The bottom line
821
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:37.039
is at the end of three months and six months,
822
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:40.920
what he reported is both groups lost the same amount
823
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:45.320
of body wet and then there was not too much
824
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:49.239
significant difference between groups, but both groups actually improved their health.
825
00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:54.039
So the bottom line is the Swiss nutritional advice that
826
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.119
he was giving, which is the standard of care there,
827
00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:00.320
it achieved the same amount of weight loss as just
828
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.760
giving people this advice that eat within twelve hours. So
829
00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:07.079
one way to look at it look at the result
830
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:12.000
of these like this, and then he went to more
831
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:16.519
extent and actually looked at every single meal these people consume,
832
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:20.360
so they're close to I think close to sixty or
833
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.960
seventy thousand meal records and pictures. He went through and
834
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:28.639
then classified them to say whether these are good quality food.
835
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:31.679
So they call it the NOVA classification one, two, three,
836
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:34.960
for one is the food that you can almost eat
837
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:40.800
raw fruits, vegetables, yogurt, dairy products that you can almost
838
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:44.599
without any preparation. And then second NOVA two is kind
839
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:48.039
of home cooked food that most people will prepare in
840
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:50.800
a few minutes. And then three and then fourth one
841
00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:54.159
is the food that you can never prepare at home,
842
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:59.960
so for example, biscuit or cookies that we usually purchase,
843
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:03.119
and few other things. And usually the NOVA four are
844
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:06.079
on healthy, ultraprocessed food so which we should not be eating.
845
00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:10.039
So the advice is to reduce NOVA four. And what
846
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:14.320
I found was people who got all this advice to
847
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:18.320
improve the nutrition quality, they actually improve that nutrition quality.
848
00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:22.599
They reduce the NOVA for food. And people who are
849
00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:25.079
in time restor eating. They ate, we did twelve hours,
850
00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.760
they did not change the nutrition quality. But what is
851
00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:32.599
interesting is they both got the same modest wet loss.
852
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.320
So that begs the question that in the maybe in
853
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:40.320
high will do this experiment again to combine nutrition advice
854
00:51:40.639 -->
00:51:43.199
with time restriction and maybe reduce the time to ten
855
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:49.239
hours and that might help. So twelve hours is something
856
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:52.280
that I say anyone from five year old to one
857
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:57.079
hundred year old can do, and if you're trying to
858
00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:59.840
maintain wet that might be a good way, and combine
859
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:01.639
that with exercise it will be great.
860
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:05.880
And people can more easily avoid reds in that way
861
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:09.440
women and for non athletes or recreational exercises, sounds like women,
862
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.599
if they distribute their calories across twelve hours, are less
863
00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:14.840
likely to lose their menstrual cycle.
864
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:17.320
Yeah, so again this is something that we have to
865
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.559
look carefully. They have to be because we do have
866
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:23.280
the my Sycreity and clockap that many people download and
867
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:26.039
self monitor and they share the data for researchers, and we.
868
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.760
Won't provide a link to that. By the way, it's
869
00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:28.840
a great it's a great tool.
870
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:30.920
Yeah, but once in a while we do get this
871
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:34.000
input from some women saying, oh, I started doing your
872
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:36.840
time laser eating and I am seeing all these problems,
873
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:38.719
and then I ask them, okay, so what else are
874
00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:42.360
you doing? They typically improve that nutrition quality, so the
875
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:45.920
eating only salad and few and they're trying to increase
876
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:48.960
the fiber intake, and it's really hard to eat so
877
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:54.559
much of uncooked food because cooking helps to observe more nutrient.
878
00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:56.639
And then at the same time they're running five miles
879
00:52:56.679 --> 00:52:59.719
every day, and of course all of these combinedly can
880
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:04.760
to Red's like symptoms. So that's why twelve I think
881
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:10.480
is a good point if a combining physical exercise and
882
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:13.880
better nutrition quality. Because in mice also we have seen
883
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.880
that if mice are eating healthy food and they're eating
884
00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:20.639
within ten to twelve hours, then they also live longer
885
00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.559
than mice that are eating healthy food but distributing that
886
00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:26.320
calorie over a long period of time. And this is
887
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:33.239
rough Hardcabo's finding from NIH. He has systematically done this
888
00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:36.039
study with two different types of diet and in mice,
889
00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:39.519
and he finds the same thing that even mice that
890
00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:42.599
are eating within twelve hours, they do live longer than
891
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.880
mice that eat randomly. Even healthy food.
892
00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:49.199
I recall a recent study. I think it was either
893
00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:51.960
published in Cell Reports or Cell Reports Medicine forgive me
894
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.000
for not memory, which we both of course, cell press
895
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:59.079
journals excellent journals which explored time restricted feeding in the
896
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.920
context of low carbohydrate or non low carbohydrate diet, so
897
00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:06.719
it was low carbohydrate versus low carbohydrate and time restricted
898
00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:10.920
so these all caloric matched right between groups, and then
899
00:54:11.239 --> 00:54:14.119
non low carbohydrate diet, so it's sort of more standard.
900
00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:16.079
I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of sixty
901
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:19.199
percent of calories from complex carbohydrates. And as I recall,
902
00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:24.719
the greatest weight loss remember same calories across groups folks,
903
00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:31.559
was achieved with low carbohydrate plus caloric restriction, and I
904
00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:35.360
wondered why all the popular news venues didn't cover that study.
905
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:37.239
But that's why I'm bringing it up now. I thought
906
00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:41.280
this is really interesting, and I'm somebody who's cycled low
907
00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:45.639
carbohydrate diet before. I find it hard to sleep after
908
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:47.519
about three or four days of being on a low
909
00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:51.280
starch diet just personally, so I like to eat some starches,
910
00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:55.039
especially if exercising intensely or working intensely. That's just a
911
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:58.880
little editorial there that, But look, I know many people
912
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.280
who do just feel better on a low carbohydrate diet.
913
00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:03.320
But what do you think of those data? Because it
914
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:05.679
speaks to the idea that, Okay, it's not just the
915
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:08.320
total number of calories, it's not just the quality of
916
00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:13.000
those calories. It's the timing of those calories, and maybe
917
00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:17.920
carbohydrate restriction in conjunction with time restricted feeding might be
918
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:20.679
the best path for people who are looking to lose weight.
919
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:26.440
No, I totally agree that when it comes to nutrition, quality, quantity,
920
00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:30.039
and timing, all these three matter. Nearly forty percent of
921
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:33.719
people who maintain healthy body wet because sixty percent are
922
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:36.559
overwet and obees forty percent of maintaining healthy body wet.
923
00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:38.960
And out of those forty percent, I would say nearly
924
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:44.199
majority of them are very aware about how much diiting
925
00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:45.920
and what quality of food diting.
926
00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:48.199
So you're really an optimist. You're looking at the forty
927
00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:52.440
percent of the glass that's or should we say not full? Yeah,
928
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:55.119
that was a pun intended, but the no, that's a
929
00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:57.159
very interesting way of looking at rather than saying, you know,
930
00:55:57.239 --> 00:56:01.480
why are sixty percent of Americans obese? Saying why are
931
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:04.320
forty percent not obese. That's a very interesting way to
932
00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:04.800
look at it.
933
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:09.119
Yeah, I'm in subconsciously, we're always making their decision, and
934
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:11.440
so I know men's I'm sure that you are not
935
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:16.000
going on eating cheeseburger every day because you want to improve.
936
00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:19.519
No, yeah, exactly, I wouldn't feel good. Yeah I enjoyed
937
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:22.800
cheeseburger now and again, but I know not, certainly, not
938
00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:24.800
this stage or any stage of my life. I think
939
00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:29.679
that I think people, actually you think the pandemic had
940
00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:31.159
a lot to do with this. I think that people
941
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:35.000
started to take a look at what they were doing
942
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:38.800
to support or not support their health generally. I know
943
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:40.760
people gained a lot of weight during the pandemic. Other
944
00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:43.000
people got really into fitness. I've seen some colleagues, so
945
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:46.960
you've always maintained you've always been in good shape. Actually,
946
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:48.360
this first time i've seen you in a while. You've
947
00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:51.440
seem to have aged backwards. So you are a poster
948
00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:56.079
for your own ideas and hypotheses about timer streage of feeding.
949
00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:59.360
But but I noticed that during the pandemic, a number
950
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:02.159
of people emerge from the pandemic in better shape, other
951
00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:03.800
people in much worse shape. It seemed like it was
952
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:09.239
like a bimodal distribution there. So yeah, I get the
953
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:13.320
sense that starting and stopping eating at more or less
954
00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:17.480
the same time each day, even if caloric restriction is
955
00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:23.360
not the main focus, has additional benefits. Can we talk
956
00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:25.440
about some of those benefits as they relate to the
957
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:28.280
other things that impact health? So, for instance, if you're
958
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:30.519
starting and stopping eating at more or less the same
959
00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:34.239
times each day, are you sleeping better? Are you getting
960
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:39.639
more predictable shifts in alertness and sleepiness? Like can you
961
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:42.679
predict when you'll feel good enough to exercise? Maybe we
962
00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:45.360
could talk about that because you, of course are well
963
00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:47.719
known for time restricted feeding and the science around that,
964
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.159
but also other things as well, not the least of
965
00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:52.840
which is circadian biology generally. So I always think of
966
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:59.119
the main timekeepers for our system being feeding, light, activity,
967
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:03.199
and social connection. Did miss maybe? And temperature?
968
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:03.599
Yeah?
969
00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:06.559
Yeah, So how do these combine with one another? And
970
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.599
using timing that we begin and stop feeding is kind
971
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:11.760
of an anchor point. We explore that a little bit. Yeah.
972
00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:15.800
So, you know, we got into this beginning and end
973
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:18.920
and then we you asked for the calorie. How much
974
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:23.519
calorie will break? The first one thing that I want
975
00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:28.639
the listeners and viewers to bring back to this timing
976
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:31.159
of when we when you are breaking the first because
977
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:38.000
we equate health with wet body wet and that's when
978
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:42.360
we are talking about nutrition quality and quantity, because both
979
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:45.800
of them have impact. So now let's think about mental
980
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:49.599
health because a lot of people do struggle with mental
981
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:55.880
health they have anxiety or depression. And also so got
982
00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:58.320
health because there are a lot of people who also
983
00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:02.119
have esterdrip flocks or how bone, and we know that
984
00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:07.480
asterriflux or hard bone can be exacerbated by caffeine intake
985
00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:13.079
in empty stomach. Those who have ester herdbone, they are
986
00:59:13.159 --> 00:59:17.000
prone to that. Then having black coffee in the morning
987
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:22.360
before any food can observe their stomach. So that's why
988
00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:25.960
in those cases it's very clearly that caffeine for them
989
00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:30.599
becomes the trigger. That's something the food is supposed to
990
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:32.760
come and then the stomach is not seeing the food,
991
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:36.599
so it's overreacting producing excess acid and that comes up
992
00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:40.960
to the estophagus and that's what they experience. So if
993
00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:43.599
people have that kind of condition, then maybe they should
994
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:47.960
consider when they drink their first coffee, is breaking their
995
00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.599
overall fast or kind of putting them putting their health
996
00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:56.480
at risk or act reflux. The other thing is people
997
00:59:56.519 --> 01:00:02.360
who have anxiety panic attack, Oh, that caffeine can judge you.
998
01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:04.599
Are, especially on an empty stomach.
999
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:08.599
Especially on an empty stomach. So for them, again, caffeine
1000
01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:12.239
can be a trigger. So that's why I want to
1001
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:14.920
kind of differentiate that there is this mental health and
1002
01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:18.119
other aspects of health. And these are two clear examples
1003
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:23.920
where anxiety panic attack related to brain health or estertrips
1004
01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:30.039
related to our gut health. In those cases when we
1005
01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:34.960
consume that caffeine in the morning can affect So do.
1006
01:00:34.920 --> 01:00:36.639
You avoid caffeine in the morning.
1007
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:41.440
Actually, here is the interesting history about caffeine and this
1008
01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:44.920
is something I did not know and I was once
1009
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:50.599
invited to this history of nighttime activity. And maybe we
1010
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:52.800
can take a little bit of detour and talk about
1011
01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:57.320
nighttime activity because that fascinates me as a Cycadian biologists
1012
01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:02.360
because of our last two hundred years means we assume
1013
01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:06.440
that humans Homo sapiens evolved two hundred thousand years ago,
1014
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:08.320
so we have been as a species. We have been
1015
01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:11.559
living on this planet for two hundred thousand years, and
1016
01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:15.599
only in the last you can say a couple of
1017
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:19.920
thousand or five thousand years when we came to control fire,
1018
01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:21.679
or maybe you can even go back to one hundred
1019
01:01:21.719 --> 01:01:26.400
thousand years, there is some debut. So then the question is, well,
1020
01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:31.559
when we control fire, and we lighted up the fire,
1021
01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:35.639
and we could light uponever we wanted, we can add fuel,
1022
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:38.840
and we can stop the fire when we don't want it.
1023
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:47.199
That's the key ability in humans that differentiates them from
1024
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:51.480
all the other species. No other species we can always
1025
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:56.400
say yes, there are signs of this intelligent decision making.
1026
01:01:56.559 --> 01:02:00.840
For example, we know many crows can make decisions. Many
1027
01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:04.800
animals they kind of figure out strategize how to get food.
1028
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:09.840
But controlled use of fire is something very specific to
1029
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:15.519
human and when we started controlling fire, fire did not
1030
01:02:16.519 --> 01:02:21.519
essentially extend the day because fire created an evening that
1031
01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:24.800
was very different from what people did during the day,
1032
01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:28.840
and what people used to do during day, they walked
1033
01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:33.760
a lot. Means gathering food was almost everything that we did.
1034
01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:37.880
And so in the evening, after the after the after,
1035
01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:42.480
we brought food, mostly tubers or maybe lentails to cook
1036
01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:45.400
or once in a while animals so that we can
1037
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:50.239
we could barbecue all of these things happened around fire,
1038
01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:55.199
and fire was so expensive that it was mostly communal fire.
1039
01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:58.440
So if you go back to for example, Massi and
1040
01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:03.719
all these a sorry populations that have no access to
1041
01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:08.079
electricity and are still living kind of that historical life,
1042
01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:12.119
fire is a communal event. And they sat around, they
1043
01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:15.639
cooked food, and then what happened. They did not talk
1044
01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:21.039
about work. They talked about culture. That they sang, they danced,
1045
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:27.400
they strategize. That's how politics started, philosophy started, science started,
1046
01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:31.119
all of these things that are very unique to human
1047
01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:36.440
civilized and started around fireside chat. So and that way,
1048
01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:38.760
if we think about it, we are still doing fireside chat.
1049
01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:40.760
The only thing is we have the microwave and the
1050
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:46.719
television or social media, so it's still so we are
1051
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:50.960
hooked to that evening activity because that's when we are
1052
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:54.880
completely free from the pressure of the work and we
1053
01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:58.280
want to express ourselves. That's our independent kind. So that's
1054
01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:02.039
why most people find it very difficult to do time
1055
01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:05.000
rash eating and stop eating at six o'clock because it's
1056
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:09.199
in grain, in our in our even DNA that we
1057
01:04:09.400 --> 01:04:14.039
want to eat and socialize in the evening. So now
1058
01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:17.639
let's fast forward and see what is the role of
1059
01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:22.159
coffee in this and if you look at coffee on Jobson,
1060
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:26.599
particularly cafe where people can come and have a little
1061
01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:29.719
bit of coffee and socialize. It also started as an
1062
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:36.440
evening activity. And this is in now we can go
1063
01:04:36.480 --> 01:04:39.760
back to Istanbul because that's one place where coffee cafes
1064
01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:44.039
started in mid sixteenth century. So we are talking about
1065
01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:50.599
fifteen forty to fifteen seventy. And that's when I'm sorry,
1066
01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:54.599
I'm forgetting the name of historians who actually invited me.
1067
01:04:54.679 --> 01:05:00.960
And okay, his name is chaml Keefer, and I must
1068
01:05:01.039 --> 01:05:03.159
be butchering the them. But I will try to.
1069
01:05:03.159 --> 01:05:06.039
Provide the spelling. And the wonderful thing about social media
1070
01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:08.679
is somebody will tell us on YouTube the proper pronunciation.
1071
01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:11.639
So is a great opportunity. If you know the proper pronunciation,
1072
01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:14.039
please put it in the comments on YouTube.
1073
01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:17.960
Actually I'm even checking right now in my end, not library,
1074
01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:23.000
it's not picking up, that's right. So what happened was
1075
01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:28.119
so coffee was introduced and people came and drank coffee
1076
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:32.360
and talked about politics at night at night, at evening.
1077
01:05:32.719 --> 01:05:36.760
And it actually started with Sufi branch of Islam, because
1078
01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:40.480
they are the ones who conjumed coffee in the evening,
1079
01:05:41.079 --> 01:05:43.800
and this is the branch of Islam where they actually
1080
01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:46.920
sing and dance, and all that happened in the evening,
1081
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:53.239
so singing dancing by the sufis, and then here in
1082
01:05:53.400 --> 01:06:00.320
Istanbul people started congregating and having talk about politics. But
1083
01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:06.239
then around the same time some you know, in Turkey,
1084
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:10.599
there was a good sizable number of Muslims who have
1085
01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:13.159
to do five prayers a day, number of prayers at
1086
01:06:13.199 --> 01:06:15.880
set time. The first prayer is very early in the morning.
1087
01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:19.039
And then they figured out that if they wake up
1088
01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:22.079
and immediately
have coffee, then they can stay awake for
1089
01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:25.480
the first prayer, and in that way they felt pretty
1090
01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:29.119
good they walk up. So that's how it started, as
1091
01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:33.480
a morning drink to stay awake and kind of get
1092
01:06:33.519 --> 01:06:36.719
on with the day. But what happened was I don't
1093
01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:39.760
know whether you have ever tried Turkish coffee. It's very thick.
1094
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:44.239
Yeah. A few years ago, right before the pandemic twenty nineteen,
1095
01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:47.519
I traveled to Turkey as saw the food is amazing,
1096
01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:52.960
the coffee is indeed very very thick, and I have
1097
01:06:52.960 --> 01:06:57.159
a pretty high caffeine tolerance from drinking so much coffee
1098
01:06:57.199 --> 01:06:59.519
in your Ramonte over the years and still do. I
1099
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:03.360
really enjoy it. But yeah, it's it's very intense. And
1100
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:08.000
so what you're saying is that coffee intakes started as
1101
01:07:08.039 --> 01:07:10.760
a way to extend into the night. The ability to
1102
01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:12.599
extend into the night at all was because of the
1103
01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:17.519
ability to harness fire, and then coffee's stimulatory properties were
1104
01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:22.639
leveraged toward morning, which is essentially like the way I
1105
01:07:22.679 --> 01:07:24.920
think about it. We did an episode on caffeine and
1106
01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:28.679
some someone else, Michael Pollin not I described it this
1107
01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:30.840
way that you're sort of taking a loan out on
1108
01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:33.280
your energy bank account with coffee. You're suppressing the a
1109
01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:35.800
dentistyine system, a dnisity makes you sleepy, but that a
1110
01:07:35.840 --> 01:07:38.199
dynasty system will kick in later. So you're you're it's
1111
01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:40.920
a credit card of sorts with an interest, right right,
1112
01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:44.840
and the interest being an energetic lag that you're going
1113
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.480
to experience in the afternoon. Yeah.
1114
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:51.280
But what happened was with the strong coffee that gave
1115
01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:53.960
hard bone and acid repplux to a lot of people.
1116
01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:59.880
So then they started eating something with coffee, and that
1117
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.559
saw the culture of breakfast started in Turkey.
1118
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:06.880
So coffee actually led to the development of breakfast, not
1119
01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:10.280
the other way around, and that yeah, so that's very heartening.
1120
01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:16.840
No again, no pun intended for the caffeine lovers among us,
1121
01:08:17.319 --> 01:08:19.279
which I count myself one of those.
1122
01:08:19.600 -->
01:08:23.439
So essentially, the food before coffee became breakfast, so you
1123
01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:27.039
kind of give something to you to your stomach, so
1124
01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:30.560
it's busy digesting that, and then when the coffee comes in,
1125
01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:34.319
it's not reacting to coffee and creating ester.
1126
01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:38.840
So it wasn't this fascinating. So it wasn't that breakfast
1127
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:43.039
is necessary on its own. It was essentially a buffer
1128
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:46.479
against the gastric distress caused by caffeine, and at.
1129
01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:49.760
Least in that culture. In that context, we cannot say
1130
01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:51.800
that whether the same thing happened and all over the
1131
01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:54.560
world where coffee is not consumed, but still people eat
1132
01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:55.520
something in the morning.
1133
01:08:56.680 --> 01:09:00.800
You said you start your first meal the day around eight.
1134
01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:01.680
What time do you wake up?
1135
01:09:02.159 --> 01:09:03.000
Wake up around six?
1136
01:09:03.319 --> 01:09:05.840
If I started, What time do you have your first caffeine?
1137
01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:08.359
No, actually I have. So that's why I brought up
1138
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:11.439
this story, because I have coffee after my breakfast.
1139
01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:14.319
Fantastic. I'm a big proponent of delaying caffeine intake for
1140
01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:17.039
a few hours after waking for other reasons that my
1141
01:09:17.359 --> 01:09:19.760
listeners have heard me talk about endlessly, So I won't
1142
01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:25.159
bother with that now, but I think allowing just suffice
1143
01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:27.319
to say that allowing some of the natural waking up
1144
01:09:27.359 --> 01:09:31.359
signals to occur and using light to kind of clear
1145
01:09:31.399 --> 01:09:35.239
away and denta scene to further extent and activity is
1146
01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:38.520
better than using a stimulant. But until a few hours later.
1147
01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:41.239
This is fascinating because I've never thought about the link
1148
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:47.479
between extension into the night socialization or socializing rather feeding
1149
01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:48.319
and caffeine.
1150
01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:53.000
Now, actually I'm kind of speaking what many other researchers
1151
01:09:53.000 --> 01:09:57.560
have found, and this particularly this fireside chat, I'm forgetting
1152
01:09:57.640 --> 01:10:00.520
again the name of the scientist I think is from
1153
01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:05.720
University of Washington, Seattle. She went to Africa and kind
1154
01:10:05.720 --> 01:10:08.600
of recorded what people are talking. Of course, you could
1155
01:10:08.600 --> 01:10:10.239
not understand what they were talking.
1156
01:10:10.279 --> 01:10:13.079
Twitter and whether or not Tesla's stock is going on,
1157
01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:16.039
of course, just just kidding folks.
1158
01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:18.920
And then came back and tried to translate and then
1159
01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:21.600
figured out that what they were talking during daytime and
1160
01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:24.479
in the evening were very different. So so.
1161
01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:27.920
What are they talking about at night?
1162
01:10:28.479 --> 01:10:32.479
Exactly? So this is like they're talking about matchmaking and
1163
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:40.560
talking about politics and strategizing to gather food or even
1164
01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:44.800
singing and dancing. So this is if you think, if
1165
01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:50.199
we think about it, how we manage sunset to our bedtime,
1166
01:10:51.079 --> 01:10:56.000
what do we do between sunset and bedtime affects most
1167
01:10:56.000 --> 01:10:56.600
of our health.
1168
01:10:58.680 --> 01:11:00.079
I'm going to think about that for a moment. I
1169
01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:04.800
totally agree. And by the way, I'm a huge believer
1170
01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:08.359
and i'man living in great hope for the idea that
1171
01:11:09.800 --> 01:11:13.000
right now, I do think that scientists understand a lot
1172
01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:15.159
more about the different stages of sleep, slow wave sleep
1173
01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:18.119
or am sleep, et cetera. Then we do active waking states,
1174
01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:20.640
like we talk about being focused or being alert, but
1175
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:23.840
that's not those aren't scientific terms as we know. But
1176
01:11:23.960 --> 01:11:28.039
I do believe and I've noticed a distinct difference between
1177
01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:31.840
the first eight hours of the day in terms of cognition.
1178
01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:34.279
And we know that the catecholamines are a much higher levels.
1179
01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:36.399
Plus court is also dopamine cords all have an effort.
1180
01:11:36.399 --> 01:11:39.039
All of that is really at much higher levels than
1181
01:11:39.079 --> 01:11:42.359
in the later evening and so this evening time it
1182
01:11:43.159 --> 01:11:45.159
certainly in the context of mental health, we know that
1183
01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:49.920
morning and evening we are basically different creatures. Yeah. Completely.
1184
01:11:50.520 --> 01:11:53.039
Yeah, so that's why I think in the evening if
1185
01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:57.520
you think about it again. This is again another set
1186
01:11:57.560 --> 01:12:03.760
of research from my good friend Horacio, who yeah.
1187
01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:06.840
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm a big fan of another. He's
1188
01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:10.399
a fellow Argentine, so occasionally we riff about things related
1189
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:12.279
to that. But he's a wonderful biologist.
1190
01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:15.960
Are you guys collaborating, Yeah, he's kind of I
say,
1191
01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:18.960
he's very humble and keeps a low profile, but he
1192
01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:24.680
does amazing, amazing research. He does research that we want
1193
01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:27.119
to know, but nobody is ready to do it because
1194
01:12:27.319 --> 01:12:31.760
field research is very difficult. To go to the wilderness
1195
01:12:32.039 --> 01:12:34.680
or go to the places where there is no electricity
1196
01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:40.279
and then record when these people are eating, sleeping, or
1197
01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:44.159
in this case activity exposure to light. That's what Horacio
1198
01:12:44.199 --> 01:12:48.239
has done, and he puts this active watch, which is
1199
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:53.279
kind of a modern activity tracker, but it's a little
1200
01:12:53.279 --> 01:12:57.880
bit more refined because it also collects light information. What
1201
01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:00.680
he found was most of these argentinian Us who have
1202
01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:06.199
no access to electricity, they consistently go to bed somewhere
1203
01:13:06.199 --> 01:13:08.600
between three to three and a half hours after sunset.
1204
01:13:08.840 --> 01:13:10.880
So this is very important because we always think that
1205
01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:15.319
our ancestors when they didn't have electricity, as soon as
1206
01:13:15.319 --> 01:13:17.159
the sun went down, they just went to sleep. No,
1207
01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:21.720
the fire extended the evening, so they were staying awake
1208
01:13:21.880 --> 01:13:28.079
for three to four hours, kind of you know, decompressing
1209
01:13:28.119 --> 01:13:32.720
themselves that we say, and then doing all these activities, cooking,
1210
01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:35.880
selling meals, and then they would go to sleep. And
1211
01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:38.479
if you look at the sleep onset variability, it was
1212
01:13:38.720 --> 01:13:42.039
very small, like they're going to bed almost within fifteen
1213
01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:43.880
to thirty minutes standard deviation.
1214
01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:47.680
So no night owls versus mourning people.
1215
01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:48.720
The scantly, So we'll get to that.
1216
01:13:48.880 --> 01:13:53.399
None of this I get attacked by for many reasons.
1217
01:13:53.399 --> 01:13:55.399
It just goes with the business I'm in of being
1218
01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:59.000
public facing these days. But every time I talk about
1219
01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:02.000
viewing sunrise or low angle sunlight, you know, getting some
1220
01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:04.800
sunlight early, that someone says, well, I'm a night owl,
1221
01:14:04.800 --> 01:14:08.159
and they just it's almost like a protest of trying
1222
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:13.760
to protect identity. It's become this ideological identity related thing.
1223
01:14:13.800 --> 01:14:16.039
I'm a night out, I'm a morning person and I'm not.
1224
01:14:16.359 --> 01:14:18.439
But you're
telling me that in these cultures where there
1225
01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:21.439
is int electricity but there is fire, people are going
1226
01:14:21.479 --> 01:14:24.520
to sleep within all of them within about fifteen minutes
1227
01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:27.239
of one another. Yeah, so there is no such thing
1228
01:14:27.239 --> 01:14:29.439
as a night owl or a morning person in the context.
1229
01:14:29.520 --> 01:14:33.840
So actually I asked him pointedly because and then he said, no,
1230
01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:37.279
he has not seen and she has dragged hundreds of people.
1231
01:14:37.560 --> 01:14:41.920
And if we ask there are many, many sleep researchers,
1232
01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:47.119
at least the public facing sleep physicians or experts, they
1233
01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:49.880
will say, yeah, we can say one third of people
1234
01:14:49.880 --> 01:14:52.920
at night owl, one third of morning, and then one third.
1235
01:14:53.680 --> 01:14:55.720
But they call them like bears, wolves, and you know,
1236
01:14:55.760 --> 01:14:57.560
and I'm not being disparaging of that idea. I think
1237
01:14:57.560 --> 01:15:01.560
people really do feel as if they orient towards one
1238
01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:02.399
pattern or another.
1239
01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:05.279
When I was an undergrad student, I never went to
1240
01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:09.000
bed before midnight, and actually midnight was my going to
1241
01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:12.279
bed time exactly like eleven forty five, I'll try to
1242
01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:15.359
get ready to hit bed, and then by twelve I'm
1243
01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:17.279
in bed, and I used to get about six six.
1244
01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:19.880
Fifteen with still that's a pretty short sleep.
1245
01:15:19.640 --> 01:15:22.920
With an alarm, of course. But then daytime, I used
1246
01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:25.119
to take forty five minutes to one hour nap, and
1247
01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:30.000
there was regular like even if whenever I got time.
1248
01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:32.840
Of course, in college, you know, you don't have the
1249
01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:35.880
whole day. Unlike in high school, you don't have the
1250
01:15:36.239 --> 01:15:38.520
opportunity to nap, but in college you can't.
1251
01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:39.880
I might have been one of those kids with his
1252
01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:41.800
hoodie on napping on the desk, but they come around
1253
01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:42.479
and they wake you up.
1254
01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:44.800
Yeah, but and this guy's just come back to the
1255
01:15:44.840 --> 01:15:47.960
dorm and after lunch usually I used to take nap.
1256
01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:54.479
So then in grad school, I remember I rarely went
1257
01:15:54.520 --> 01:15:57.279
to bed before two am, and I could have clearly
1258
01:15:57.279 --> 01:15:59.520
said that I'm a night owl, and actually I was
1259
01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:03.600
it not night owl. It was very comfortable staying
off
1260
01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:08.119
so late. I was very productive doing experiments, writing all
1261
01:16:08.119 --> 01:16:16.479
these manuscripts mostly. But then afterwards, when I look back
1262
01:16:16.960 --> 01:16:20.800
in post doc, when I had when we had our daughter,
1263
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:26.560
then things started changing because you have to put the
1264
01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:31.560
baby to sleep, and then after the baby slaves, it's
1265
01:16:31.640 --> 01:16:35.000
almost when you have a baby, your life revolves around
1266
01:16:35.039 --> 01:16:38.319
the baby. So then we had to dim down the light.
1267
01:16:39.359 --> 01:16:42.600
There is no caffeine and alcohol, drinking or any other
1268
01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:45.039
things after the baby slaves because we cannot do too
1269
01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:48.399
much noise. And so then I realized that no, I'm
1270
01:16:48.439 --> 01:16:51.920
actually not a night owl, and I became kind of
1271
01:16:52.039 --> 01:16:55.600
more normal because I could go to sleep between ten
1272
01:16:55.640 --> 01:17:01.279
and eleven, and that's how I thought, well, maybe this
1273
01:17:01.439 --> 01:17:04.760
was very unique to me. But what is interesting is
1274
01:17:05.880 --> 01:17:11.800
I have another colleague, good friend, Ken Wright, Junior Colorado
1275
01:17:11.920 --> 01:17:17.079
at Colorado, and he also had guard students and post
1276
01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:20.319
dogs like me, who strongly believed that they were night
1277
01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:24.840
owls just like everybody else. And he took ken took
1278
01:17:24.880 --> 01:17:28.199
the whole love for camping. And when they were camping,
1279
01:17:28.439 --> 01:17:31.239
of course there is less light and a lot of
1280
01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:34.880
physical activity hiking during the day, and they all went
1281
01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:38.439
to bed between nine and ten thirty PM.
1282
01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:41.359
I of that study, Yeah, what suching just described as
1283
01:17:41.399 --> 01:17:42.960
a study. I think there were two studies.
1284
01:17:43.159 --> 01:17:43.560
There are too.
1285
01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:47.199
And what's interesting, as I recall, is that after going
1286
01:17:47.239 --> 01:17:50.880
camping for a weekend where people wake with us more
1287
01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:53.479
or less with the sunrise, yeah, and go to sleep
1288
01:17:53.720 --> 01:17:58.720
a few hours after sunset, they're melatonin rhythms and cortisol
1289
01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:03.760
rhythms and sleep wake rhythms. Persisted on that schedule for
1290
01:18:03.800 --> 01:18:08.199
several weeks, despite returning to environments where there was a
1291
01:18:08.199 --> 01:18:11.359
lot of artificial lighting, which I find amazing that just
1292
01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:15.840
a weekend of consistent rising and going to bed with
1293
01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:20.159
the sunrise and sunset more or less allowed a reset
1294
01:18:20.199 --> 01:18:21.640
that was very long lasting.
1295
01:18:23.039 --> 01:18:28.239
So actually, even in Horazio study he found that almost
1296
01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:32.199
all the Tobas they wake up around sunrise time. And
1297
01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:34.760
it's amazing when I look at the standard views and
1298
01:18:34.800 --> 01:18:35.720
it's like so tight.
1299
01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:39.239
So take that night owl so called night owls. I
1300
01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:41.760
also didn't graduate school. I would work until two am.
1301
01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:43.760
I loved it a blast. Music in the lab everyone
1302
01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:46.640
was at home pretty much, not everyone, but there were
1303
01:18:46.640 --> 01:18:49.319
the night crew. And then I'd get in sometime around
1304
01:18:50.479 --> 01:18:52.640
get up or sometime around nine thirty ten, and then
1305
01:18:52.680 --> 01:18:54.960
get in around eleven. And it was no problem because
1306
01:18:55.279 --> 01:18:57.680
I was going to stay so very late. And then
1307
01:18:57.680 --> 01:19:00.680
over time I noticed I've become more locked to standard schedule.
1308
01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:02.039
So I think what we're saying is that the clock
1309
01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:05.039
can our internal clocks can shift. Yeah, but this idea
1310
01:19:05.079 --> 01:19:09.800
that we are genetically biased towards one schedule or another
1311
01:19:09.960 --> 01:19:12.760
may need revisiting. That's what that's a conclusion.
1312
01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:16.479
Taking from couple of aspects. One is, you know, some
1313
01:19:16.560 --> 01:19:20.600
people are genetically so pre programmed. Because the other cliff
1314
01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:25.399
side is what is called technically familial advanced lip syndrome.
1315
01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:30.960
So these people, you can give them caffeine or whatever,
1316
01:19:31.319 --> 01:19:34.199
but they will fall asleep, say at eight o'clock. They
1317
01:19:34.239 --> 01:19:38.520
cannot stay away till nine or ten. And since it's
1318
01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:42.239
a very strong phenotype in sleep and Cicadian rhythm filled,
1319
01:19:42.399 --> 01:19:45.880
they are very well studied. So in fact, Louis Patachek
1320
01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:49.079
and Ingui Fu they were the first one to track
1321
01:19:49.239 --> 01:19:51.520
one family like this, and then they figured out there
1322
01:19:51.560 --> 01:19:55.039
was a mutation in one of the clock gens period
1323
01:19:55.119 --> 01:20:01.520
two that clock gin, and that mutation the clock run
1324
01:20:01.560 --> 01:20:04.520
in a way that these people went to bed very early.
1325
01:20:04.680 --> 01:20:10.000
I guess historically, given these fireside chats, that those people
1326
01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:13.880
were probably not contributing much to the political discussion. Whatever
1327
01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:15.760
there was decided after they went to sleep, is what
1328
01:20:15.800 --> 01:20:18.279
they woke up into. That reminds me because as you
1329
01:20:18.279 --> 01:20:21.880
were describing the difference between nighttime discussions versus morning discussions,
1330
01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:24.680
is there any theme to what is discussed in the
1331
01:20:24.720 --> 01:20:26.960
morning versus and the nighttimeer of people just sipping there,
1332
01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:30.880
eating and sipping their caffeine and just waking up. But
1333
01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:34.159
is there are there any ideas about what morning discussions
1334
01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:35.199
really consistent.
1335
01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:39.880
Morning discussions or daytime discussions are mostly about work and
1336
01:20:40.960 --> 01:20:45.159
like hunting, gathering or farming all their stuff. And even
1337
01:20:45.199 --> 01:20:48.199
these days, that's what we do. We you know you,
1338
01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:51.560
I go to walk and it's mostly one meeting up
1339
01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:55.359
to another and we're talking about how mensfar in different
1340
01:20:55.399 --> 01:20:59.359
committees and are solving problems, or your students come with questions.
1341
01:20:59.359 --> 01:21:02.479
You have your tea or the office hours, all these
1342
01:21:02.479 --> 01:21:08.880
things work related. We're not talking serious philosophy unless you're
1343
01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:11.800
in a philosophy department and you're talking about political science.
1344
01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:16.239
And also we are not singing and dancing. So that's
1345
01:21:16.279 --> 01:21:20.920
why the evening activity even these days are very different.
1346
01:21:21.439 --> 01:21:26.680
And typically the evening activities where we express ourselves, we
1347
01:21:26.800 --> 01:21:29.960
express who we are. We feel like we are free,
1348
01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:34.520
and you know, you and I we have this academic
1349
01:21:34.600 --> 01:21:37.640
intellectual freedom. We can talk about our work just like
1350
01:21:37.680 --> 01:21:40.000
we're talking now. There are a lot of people who
1351
01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:43.600
work for even in tech industry. They may be working
1352
01:21:43.640 --> 01:21:46.880
for Google and all these big tech companies. They can't
1353
01:21:46.880 --> 01:21:48.680
talk about their work to anybody else.
1354
01:21:49.199 --> 01:21:50.039
It's all secret.
1355
01:21:50.119 --> 01:21:54.119
It's all secret. So just imagine they're staying up, so
1356
01:21:54.399 --> 01:21:58.760
they're spending more than half of the wake up time
1357
01:21:59.399 --> 01:22:03.920
at work thinking and doing work, but they cannot talk
1358
01:22:03.960 --> 01:22:07.399
about that work, even sometimes to their own family members,
1359
01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:11.119
So then what happens for them. A lot of people
1360
01:22:11.159 --> 01:22:13.680
also do the same thing, like the person who is
1361
01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:17.600
going and baking
an restaurant or cooking, or the person
1362
01:22:17.640 --> 01:22:20.640
who is taking trust and driving.
1363
01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:22.960
Can't talk about their patients.
1364
01:22:23.119 --> 01:22:26.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And some people just don't want to
1365
01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:29.000
talk about it. It's so stressful. They don't want to
1366
01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:31.880
bring that stress home. So that's why I always say
1367
01:22:31.960 --> 01:22:35.920
that from sunset until we go to bed. During that time,
1368
01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:39.600
we try to find time for ourselves. People say this
1369
01:22:39.640 --> 01:22:44.239
is me time. The me time is essentially we want
1370
01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:48.359
to truly express who we are, or we want to
1371
01:22:49.199 --> 01:22:52.880
entertain ourselves. Because on the fireside chat, it's not that
1372
01:22:52.960 --> 01:22:56.840
everybody was a performer. There are also some audience, so
1373
01:22:56.880 --> 01:23:00.159
we always switch our roles. Sometimes we are performing and
1374
01:23:00.199 --> 01:23:03.560
sometimes observing. So that's what happens with me time.
1375
01:23:04.439 --> 01:23:07.439
I love this. So maybe social media time should be
1376
01:23:07.479 --> 01:23:10.159
restricted to just maybe a small portion of that evening time,
1377
01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:12.479
because I would hope that people would also interact socially
1378
01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:14.239
with in the room, maybe in.
1379
01:23:14.159 --> 01:23:17.520
A constructive way, or maybe we use that for connect
1380
01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:20.600
with your family members. Whom we love or you can
1381
01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.720
have some productive discussion or something. So it's it's kind
1382
01:23:23.720 --> 01:23:24.239
of interesting.
1383
01:23:24.680 --> 01:23:27.680
I think it's extremely interesting because I think again, this
1384
01:23:28.159 --> 01:23:31.760
conversation about time restricted feeding is really a conversation about
1385
01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:34.880
Securitian rhythms and sleepwake activity and human evolution.
1386
01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:39.479
Right. So that's why let's go back to this night
1387
01:23:39.520 --> 01:23:43.560
out because we kind of made a comment that maybe
1388
01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:46.319
it's not genetic. But uh, this is where I'm still
1389
01:23:46.319 --> 01:23:49.840
wrapping my head around because you know, these days there's
1390
01:23:49.880 --> 01:23:54.720
some guus studies where they're trying to look at night
1391
01:23:54.760 --> 01:24:00.359
owls to see whether there are some genetic lincolns. And
1392
01:24:00.520 --> 01:24:03.319
you know, sometimes we always think, yeah, if you take
1393
01:24:03.319 --> 01:24:05.960
half a million people, of course you'll find some low
1394
01:24:06.079 --> 01:24:10.039
side that. But going back to this idea that are
1395
01:24:10.119 --> 01:24:14.359
some people more sensitive to light, so that it's likely
1396
01:24:14.520 --> 01:24:18.119
that the same level of light, even in the same household,
1397
01:24:18.920 --> 01:24:21.600
may make some people stay away later into the night,
1398
01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:24.600
whereas other people are more resistant to light so that
1399
01:24:24.680 --> 01:24:28.439
they can go to bed early. And since light has
1400
01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:32.119
become so prevalent these days, and this toabas story that
1401
01:24:32.159 --> 01:24:34.600
we're talking about or people going on camping, that is
1402
01:24:34.760 --> 01:24:41.199
we have removed that light. So there is some evidence
1403
01:24:41.239 --> 01:24:47.000
that people's light sensitivity, particularly the IPIGC or this intrinsically
1404
01:24:47.039 --> 01:24:51.359
photosensitive retinal ganglion cell, or the simple speakers, the blue
1405
01:24:51.399 --> 01:24:55.159
light sensors in our eyes, there seems to be even
1406
01:24:55.359 --> 01:24:59.920
one log unit change in sensitivity as measured by peop
1407
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:00.760
build constriction.
1408
01:25:01.239 --> 01:25:05.560
So for some people, a small amount of artificial light
1409
01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:08.640
at night could really shift their circadian clock and wake them.
1410
01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:11.439
Up essentially, and then put some Yeah.
1411
01:25:11.279 --> 01:25:14.640
I'm very sensitive to light at night. Yeah, exquisitely sensitive
1412
01:25:14.680 --> 01:25:14.920
to it.
1413
01:25:15.119 --> 01:25:17.039
Oh so then you are like a teenager.
1414
01:25:17.279 --> 01:25:20.520
Yes, in many ways I've been told this, Thank you.
1415
01:25:22.039 --> 01:25:25.560
I think I have actually switched to using a red
1416
01:25:25.720 --> 01:25:29.560
night light. But I should be clear, not a fancy,
1417
01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:32.239
high cost red light for sake of any kind of
1418
01:25:32.239 --> 01:25:35.720
infrared simulation, but a red party light type light. And
1419
01:25:35.760 --> 01:25:38.239
I find that that was based on reading one study
1420
01:25:38.239 --> 01:25:40.039
that we covered in an episode on jet lag and
1421
01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:43.239
shift work, which was that it seems to reduce the
1422
01:25:43.479 --> 01:25:47.520
cortisol releasing properties of light at night to use red
1423
01:25:47.520 --> 01:25:50.520
shifted light. So I just use a red light. Well,
1424
01:25:50.520 --> 01:25:51.960
I actually travel with one if I go to an
1425
01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:54.000
airbnb or hotel and I switch to red light, and
1426
01:25:54.039 --> 01:25:56.199
I find that I fall asleep and stay asleep throughout
1427
01:25:56.239 --> 01:25:59.079
the night much more consistently, especially in when I'm in
1428
01:25:59.079 --> 01:26:02.479
new environments where it always makes it disruptive to sleep.
1429
01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:06.439
It's made an enormous difference in the depth and duration
1430
01:26:06.520 --> 01:26:10.840
of my
sleep. And because oftentimes hotel lights you know,
1431
01:26:10.880 --> 01:26:12.520
in the bathroom will turn them on. It just you're
1432
01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:14.640
just getting bean And you're right, some people don't seem
1433
01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:19.000
to be bothered by that. I really struggle with that.
1434
01:26:19.319 --> 01:26:23.479
Yeah, And in fact, in teenage, right after puberty, there
1435
01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:27.319
seems to be I think that's when the teenagers become
1436
01:26:27.359 --> 01:26:32.359
more sensitive sensitive to light. And it's very It's well
1437
01:26:32.399 --> 01:26:35.520
known that the teenage boys and girls, they tend to
1438
01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:38.079
stay awake late into the night, and they can stay
1439
01:26:38.119 --> 01:26:43.520
up to twelve past midnight. Although they can stay off
1440
01:26:43.560 --> 01:26:47.199
that LD, that doesn't mean that their sleep schedule is reduced.
1441
01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:50.239
Their body still needs the same amount of sleep as
1442
01:26:50.319 --> 01:26:53.680
other teenagers. So that's why they are more likely not
1443
01:26:53.760 --> 01:26:55.840
to wake up at six thirty or seven when we
1444
01:26:56.680 --> 01:26:59.359
expect them to wake up and go to school.
1445
01:27:00.479 --> 01:27:03.960
I have a question, and I ask every circadian related
1446
01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:06.920
biologists I can come into contact with this, and no
1447
01:27:06.920 --> 01:27:08.560
one has been able to give me an answer one
1448
01:27:08.560 --> 01:27:11.119
way or the other. But I grew up hearing that
1449
01:27:11.199 --> 01:27:14.680
every hour of sleep before midnight was of more value
1450
01:27:14.720 --> 01:27:17.960
or potency than the hours after midnight. And indeed I
1451
01:27:18.000 --> 01:27:19.960
find that if I go to sleep at nine thirty
1452
01:27:20.039 --> 01:27:23.359
or ten PM, I can wake up at three or four.
1453
01:27:23.399 --> 01:27:26.119
I am feeling pretty fantastic and ready to lean into
1454
01:27:26.119 --> 01:27:28.279
the day. But if I get the equivalent number of
1455
01:27:28.319 --> 01:27:32.319
hours of sleep starting at midnight, I feel like complete
1456
01:27:32.359 --> 01:27:35.079
garbage when I wake up after five six hours. So
1457
01:27:35.920 --> 01:27:38.800
is there any truth to the idea that going to
1458
01:27:38.920 --> 01:27:44.199
sleep within three hours of sunset is somehow better for
1459
01:27:44.239 --> 01:27:46.880
our circadian timing mechanisms?
1460
01:27:46.960 --> 01:27:49.119
Well, there are a few things. One, you said that
1461
01:27:49.159 --> 01:27:51.439
you have very sensitive to light, so I assume that
1462
01:27:51.479 --> 01:27:54.600
you also avoid bright light in the evening as best
1463
01:27:54.600 --> 01:27:57.159
I can. Yeh, as best as you could. Yeah, And
1464
01:27:57.199 --> 01:28:00.760
then what is happening is with a sense of bright light,
1465
01:28:01.399 --> 01:28:04.640
your melatonin levels begin to rise, so you are prepared
1466
01:28:04.680 --> 01:28:08.239
for sleep. Of course, this is something that we cannot measure,
1467
01:28:08.279 --> 01:28:11.560
because measuring melatonin in every one hour or thirty minutes
1468
01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:16.920
is very difficult, and there is no consumer facing product yet,
1469
01:28:18.199 --> 01:28:21.920
so it's likely that your body is preparing very well
1470
01:28:22.119 --> 01:28:24.920
under this dim light to fall asleep, and when you're
1471
01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:29.720
trying to stay awake and go sleep at midnight. Then
1472
01:28:29.920 --> 01:28:32.279
maybe from midnight for the first three or four hours
1473
01:28:32.279 --> 01:28:35.479
you're sleeping well, but then after that your melotonin level
1474
01:28:35.680 --> 01:28:39.640
might be beginning to fall. And it's not only melotony
1475
01:28:39.640 --> 01:28:42.760
in your core body temperature and then your heart rate
1476
01:28:42.800 --> 01:28:45.800
and everything is changing to make you awake. But the
1477
01:28:45.880 --> 01:28:49.800
sleep debt that you have accumulated is pushing you to
1478
01:28:49.840 --> 01:28:53.159
be in bed. So there is this tensum between the
1479
01:28:53.199 --> 01:28:58.840
cicicadian aspect and your sleep debt, and unfortunately you cannot
1480
01:28:59.279 --> 01:29:02.279
have good night, tough, restorative sleep for the second half
1481
01:29:02.319 --> 01:29:04.399
of the sleep because of the Tenson.
1482
01:29:04.720 --> 01:29:05.640
That makes good sense.
1483
01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:08.560
Yeah, so that's why you know you are not the
1484
01:29:08.560 --> 01:29:12.520
only one, and there are many people who who experience that,
1485
01:29:12.680 --> 01:29:15.319
and in fact a lot of people think that, well,
1486
01:29:16.039 --> 01:29:18.039
this may be the way I sleep. Maybe I'm not.
1487
01:29:18.880 --> 01:29:24.000
I am not designed to sleep restoratively until you know,
1488
01:29:24.039 --> 01:29:26.760
I sleep one day just like the camping trip.
1489
01:29:27.760 --> 01:29:30.000
And then they realize what it feels like to what
1490
01:29:30.600 --> 01:29:33.880
you're missing. Yeah, absolutely, I want to make sure that
1491
01:29:33.920 --> 01:29:36.800
we talk about the other aspect of fire, which is
1492
01:29:37.000 --> 01:29:40.159
you had a paper that came out recently, very interesting
1493
01:29:40.199 --> 01:29:43.880
paper studying firefighters and time restricted feeding and firefighters. Would
1494
01:29:43.880 --> 01:29:46.199
you share with us the general contour, maybe even some
1495
01:29:46.239 --> 01:29:48.560
of the specifics of that study, because I think it's
1496
01:29:48.920 --> 01:29:51.840
very interesting for for sake of shift workers, but for
1497
01:29:52.000 --> 01:29:54.399
everybody really to understand these results.
1498
01:29:54.760 --> 01:29:57.520
Yeah. So let's go back to shift workers because this
1499
01:29:57.680 --> 01:30:01.199
also relates to all of us, because I always say
1500
01:30:01.239 --> 01:30:04.119
that each of us is a shift worker or has
1501
01:30:04.279 --> 01:30:07.880
lived the life of a shift worker, and we have
1502
01:30:07.960 --> 01:30:13.279
experienced how terrible difficult it is. And now let's start
1503
01:30:13.319 --> 01:30:15.760
with what is the definition of a shift worker or
1504
01:30:16.359 --> 01:30:21.479
shiftwork like lifestyle. There is no universal definition, unfortunately, but
1505
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:24.840
there are many European countries, and particularly if you go
1506
01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:31.000
to international level organization, then you'll find some references. Different
1507
01:30:31.039 --> 01:30:35.439
European countries have slightly different definition, which essentially points to
1508
01:30:36.640 --> 01:30:40.159
if you stay awake for two or more hours during
1509
01:30:40.199 --> 01:30:43.479
your habitual sleep time. And when they say habitual sleep time,
1510
01:30:44.680 --> 01:30:47.840
they assume that we are just like you said, we
1511
01:30:47.880 --> 01:30:50.600
are kind of programmed to sleep somewhere between set ten
1512
01:30:51.560 --> 01:30:55.159
pm and then stay in bed and kind of wake
1513
01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:57.880
up after five am. So the idea is if you
1514
01:30:57.960 --> 01:31:01.000
stay if you're staying awake for two or more hours
1515
01:31:01.039 --> 01:31:06.039
between ten pm and five am, and you're engaged in
1516
01:31:06.039 --> 01:31:10.359
some activity, whether it's physical activity or intellectual activity, you
1517
01:31:10.359 --> 01:31:15.079
are not lying in bed and wondering worrying about something,
1518
01:31:15.399 --> 01:31:18.760
but actually working. So that defines that's defined as shiftwork.
1519
01:31:19.079 --> 01:31:20.840
And you don't have to do it every single day,
1520
01:31:21.159 --> 01:31:25.159
even if you do it once a week for fifty weeks,
1521
01:31:26.319 --> 01:31:32.800
then that itself is enough to disrupt your physiology and metabolism, behavior,
1522
01:31:32.840 --> 01:31:36.760
brain function like a shiftworker. The reason is, as you discussed,
1523
01:31:37.840 --> 01:31:43.119
when you change our external timing queue. So in this case,
1524
01:31:43.159 --> 01:31:47.199
when you travel jet lag or traveling across three days,
1525
01:31:47.880 --> 01:31:54.520
three hours of jet lag will take three days to reset. Similarly,
1526
01:31:54.560 --> 01:31:57.680
if you're staying awake for two hours extra, or if
1527
01:31:57.680 --> 01:32:01.039
you're waking up two hours before your habitual wake up time,
1528
01:32:01.840 --> 01:32:05.319
then we just don't get wake up and then be
1529
01:32:05.439 --> 01:32:08.239
engaged in some activity in the dark most of us
1530
01:32:08.399 --> 01:32:12.000
and means unless you are wearing an infrared goggles, we
1531
01:32:12.079 --> 01:32:15.560
turn on
light and light researchs a our clock. So
1532
01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:20.880
in that way, every time we stay up for two
1533
01:32:21.000 --> 01:32:23.920
or more hours even for one night, then for the
1534
01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:26.199
next two nights, our clock is kind of trying to
1535
01:32:26.239 --> 01:32:30.560
catch up. So in that way, for three days the
1536
01:32:30.640 --> 01:32:33.520
day of the disruption and then two days following the disruption,
1537
01:32:34.920 --> 01:32:37.399
our clock is trying to catch up with the outside time.
1538
01:32:38.079 --> 01:32:40.399
So our clock, our body is not on time with
1539
01:32:40.479 --> 01:32:44.880
our clock. So that means almost for half of the
1540
01:32:44.920 --> 01:32:47.720
week or half of the year, our clock is trying
1541
01:32:47.720 --> 01:32:51.560
to catch up. So that's the definition of shipwork. So
1542
01:32:51.680 --> 01:32:57.399
now let's come back to Department of Level Statistics US government.
1543
01:32:59.000 --> 01:33:03.159
They have not been tracking what percentage of people are
1544
01:33:03.159 --> 01:33:07.119
doing shipwork accurately because there are many difficulties in tracking too.
1545
01:33:08.039 --> 01:33:11.720
But it's generally accepted that one in five working adults
1546
01:33:12.479 --> 01:33:16.560
is a card carrying shipworker. Card carrying shipworkers means they
1547
01:33:16.600 --> 01:33:28.960
are nurses, doctors, firefighters, and bakers, truck drivers than many
1548
01:33:29.000 --> 01:33:32.560
in the service industry. So that's one in five, so
1549
01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:37.920
twenty percent of working adults. Then if we think about
1550
01:33:38.159 --> 01:33:41.079
all the college students, just like I was doing and
1551
01:33:41.159 --> 01:33:47.239
you must have done, there are also experience deadlines, grand deadlines.
1552
01:33:47.319 --> 01:33:51.680
Then we are also experiencing experiencing the lifestyle of a shipworker.
1553
01:33:51.720 --> 01:33:55.520
Because we're delaying sleep. Even if you're delaying sleep by
1554
01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:57.840
two hours for most of the college students for five
1555
01:33:57.920 --> 01:34:00.000
days and then the weekend you're trying to catch up.
1556
01:34:00.319 --> 01:34:04.600
That's kind of a Cicicadian disruption going on. Then you
1557
01:34:04.680 --> 01:34:07.199
take one point five or one point six million new
1558
01:34:07.279 --> 01:34:11.800
moms in the US every year. So when the child
1559
01:34:11.840 --> 01:34:14.960
is born and that mother is a shipworker, and actually
1560
01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:18.560
that mother is worse than a shipworker because you know,
1561
01:34:18.640 --> 01:34:21.279
you don't know what time of the night the baby
1562
01:34:21.319 --> 01:34:25.000
will wake up and how many times, and there is
1563
01:34:25.039 --> 01:34:30.920
no weekend in motherhood, so they're also living the life
1564
01:34:30.960 --> 01:34:37.039
of a shipworker. We don't count many food delivery and
1565
01:34:37.640 --> 01:34:41.680
uber driver lift drivers are shipworkers, but many of them
1566
01:34:41.720 --> 01:34:45.039
we know that they live. So in that way, we
1567
01:34:45.119 --> 01:34:48.039
think the actual number of people who are experiencing the
1568
01:34:48.039 --> 01:34:51.319
life of a ship worker is somewhere around fifty percent
1569
01:34:51.359 --> 01:34:56.680
of the adults population at any given time. So that's
1570
01:34:56.720 --> 01:34:59.359
why it's also another point that you might have heard
1571
01:34:59.359 --> 01:35:01.720
from people will say, oh, I cannot do time issue
1572
01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:06.199
eating because my schedule is messed up. I work in
1573
01:35:06.239 --> 01:35:12.279
a different way, and that comes into play. So that's
1574
01:35:12.279 --> 01:35:15.159
why we thought, Okay, so we should try something on
1575
01:35:15.319 --> 01:35:19.399
shipt worker. Another point is although one in five people
1576
01:35:19.520 --> 01:35:25.359
are shipp workers, they carry disproportionately heavier burden of disease
1577
01:35:25.720 --> 01:35:29.359
because almost all is related disease that we can think of,
1578
01:35:29.399 --> 01:35:32.439
whether it's high blood pressure usually high blood pressure starts
1579
01:35:32.439 --> 01:35:39.319
in forties or fifties, high cholesterol, gastro intestinal problem in digestion,
1580
01:35:40.560 --> 01:35:45.479
chronic inflammation of the colon and then even colon cancer
1581
01:35:45.640 --> 01:35:50.840
in many cases, and then of course diabetes. All of
1582
01:35:50.880 --> 01:35:57.600
these are disproproximately more prevalent among shift workers. But then
1583
01:35:57.800 --> 01:36:00.680
when you think about clinical trials, whether it's a drug
1584
01:36:01.560 --> 01:36:06.439
or a lifestyle often one of the top ten exclusion
1585
01:36:06.479 --> 01:36:10.359
factor criteria is shift work. So people who are doing
1586
01:36:10.359 --> 01:36:14.239
shift work, we exclude them from many of these trials.
1587
01:36:15.159 --> 01:36:19.479
One thing is most physicians and most scientists, even people
1588
01:36:19.479 --> 01:36:22.720
who do shift work, they know that their body and
1589
01:36:22.840 --> 01:36:27.439
mind is so messed up that often times even medications
1590
01:36:27.479 --> 01:36:30.199
may not help them. And so that's why if we
1591
01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:33.199
don't try new medication, why to take the risk we
1592
01:36:33.319 --> 01:36:35.920
know it may not help them. And then when it
1593
01:36:35.960 --> 01:36:39.840
comes to lifestyle intervention, whether it's sleep extension for example,
1594
01:36:39.960 --> 01:36:42.279
we cannot do because they are supposed to stay awake
1595
01:36:42.359 --> 01:36:44.640
and do their job. We cannot ask them to stay
1596
01:36:44.680 --> 01:36:50.039
asleep at night. And then physical activity and exercise some
1597
01:36:50.119 --> 01:36:53.520
people can do, but some people are so tired after
1598
01:36:54.079 --> 01:36:57.239
all night that they don't have the energy to do
1599
01:36:57.319 --> 01:37:02.640
physical activity. And then nutrition. Again, most nutrition studies involved
1600
01:37:03.960 --> 01:37:09.479
the participants to come to the clinic and get one
1601
01:37:09.479 --> 01:37:13.520
on one or one or attend group sessions, and they
1602
01:37:13.560 --> 01:37:16.640
cannot come and they cannot have been Sometimes come to
1603
01:37:16.640 --> 01:37:21.319
the clinic visit when people have to take draw blood.
1604
01:37:22.039 --> 01:37:27.239
And in fact there is another caveat that. Just if
1605
01:37:27.560 --> 01:37:34.640
suppose I'm healthy, I have perfectly normal blood pressure, blood glucus, cholesterol,
1606
01:37:34.800 --> 01:37:37.760
everything is normal, and I leave the life of a
1607
01:37:37.800 --> 01:37:42.880
shipworker just for five nights. That means I'm sleeping less
1608
01:37:42.920 --> 01:37:47.640
maybe four or five hours, And even if I don't
1609
01:37:47.720 --> 01:37:52.239
eat at nighttime. Of course, many shift workers also feel hungry,
1610
01:37:52.239 --> 01:37:56.960
and just for to keep their work, they eat. Just
1611
01:37:57.000 --> 01:37:59.720
after five days, my blood glucus level will read on
1612
01:37:59.800 --> 01:38:02.000
more like I'm pre diabetic. Wow.
1613
01:38:02.399 --> 01:38:04.960
I actually saw a study in publishing Proceeds of the
1614
01:38:05.039 --> 01:38:08.720
National Academy that showed that even a hundred lucks dim
1615
01:38:08.800 --> 01:38:11.119
light present in the room while people are sleeping with
1616
01:38:11.159 --> 01:38:16.560
eyes closed can lead to disruptions in mourning, blood glucose levels,
1617
01:38:16.600 --> 01:38:20.479
and directions that are not good one night. So the
1618
01:38:20.840 --> 01:38:24.600
faint clock in the corner, or even a night light
1619
01:38:24.680 --> 01:38:28.479
that's too bright could be problematic. By the way, folks,
1620
01:38:28.479 --> 01:38:32.079
these effects are reversible. So whenever I say these things,
1621
01:38:32.359 --> 01:38:33.960
we get a lot of comments about, oh, my goodness,
1622
01:38:33.960 --> 01:38:35.680
what have I been doing for years? But you know,
1623
01:38:35.800 --> 01:38:38.960
kids with night lights, this is an issue. But what
1624
01:38:39.000 --> 01:38:42.720
I'm hearing is that one in five people are truly
1625
01:38:42.800 --> 01:38:45.479
shift workers in the classic sense their jobs require they
1626
01:38:45.520 --> 01:38:47.880
work at night or into the night and sleep into
1627
01:38:47.880 --> 01:38:53.359
the day. But far more people are shift workers by
1628
01:38:53.439 --> 01:38:56.000
virtue of the fact that they're tweeting or working or
1629
01:38:56.039 --> 01:38:58.800
watching movies at night even though it's not work, and
1630
01:38:58.920 --> 01:39:01.720
that they're not being paid for that time. They are
1631
01:39:02.199 --> 01:39:05.039
essentially operating like shift workers. If we add those two
1632
01:39:05.039 --> 01:39:09.199
groups together, would we say it's what a third of Americans?
1633
01:39:09.479 --> 01:39:12.279
I would say half of America, half of America if
1634
01:39:12.279 --> 01:39:15.640
you take teenagers, because you know, high school students and
1635
01:39:15.680 --> 01:39:19.680
college students, because again going back to Horacio's study, because
1636
01:39:19.720 --> 01:39:24.079
Horacio also collected activity data from high school students and
1637
01:39:24.119 --> 01:39:27.199
college students, and we have replicated that with high school
1638
01:39:27.199 --> 01:39:29.800
students and college staurants in San Diego. So that's Seattle
1639
01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:34.000
and San Diego. And this study, now, there are many
1640
01:39:34.079 --> 01:39:37.479
slip researchers they have in collecting this data, and what
1641
01:39:37.560 --> 01:39:41.720
we find is typically the high school students they are
1642
01:39:41.800 --> 01:39:45.880
going to beds around midnight, and college students, at least
1643
01:39:45.920 --> 01:39:49.520
the UCUS students, we found maybe one out of hundred
1644
01:39:49.560 --> 01:39:51.159
who went to bed before midnight.
1645
01:39:51.920 --> 01:39:55.680
That reminds me that Horacio Glacias just publish this really
1646
01:39:55.760 --> 01:40:01.119
nice paper showing that counter to what we've leave students. Now,
1647
01:40:01.159 --> 01:40:03.239
there's the University of Washington in Seattle, as you mentioned,
1648
01:40:03.279 --> 01:40:06.800
where it's very dark in the winter. Young people, these
1649
01:40:06.840 --> 01:40:10.199
are people in their twenties are staying up later in
1650
01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:13.199
the winter months compared to the summer months. Yeah, which is,
1651
01:40:13.279 --> 01:40:15.880
you know, totally counterintuitive. You think everyone stays up late
1652
01:40:15.920 --> 01:40:17.359
in the summer and goes to bed early in the winter,
1653
01:40:17.399 --> 01:40:19.880
but because of artificial lighting, it's the exact opposite.
1654
01:40:20.079 --> 01:40:23.359
Yeah. So and another I don't know how that HARASSU
1655
01:40:23.880 --> 01:40:27.800
monitored it, but my other suspicion, I'm not saying whether
1656
01:40:27.840 --> 01:40:30.880
it's true in winter we are more likely to consume
1657
01:40:30.920 --> 01:40:34.880
more coffee hot chocolate in the evening, and that might
1658
01:40:35.000 --> 01:40:37.960
also be delaying sleep onset.
1659
01:40:38.279 --> 01:40:39.000
That makes sense.
1660
01:40:39.159 --> 01:40:43.359
So in that way again here is another thing which
1661
01:40:43.479 --> 01:40:50.239
can be related to policy or practice at UCSAN Institute.
1662
01:40:50.680 --> 01:40:54.800
So what happened during COVID was everybody went to remote learning.
1663
01:40:56.760 -->
01:41:00.840
The assignments became digital and assignments some miss became digital
1664
01:41:01.119 --> 01:41:04.680
and there are many systems online systems that came into play,
1665
01:41:05.640 --> 01:41:10.039
and by default the assignment some miss on deadline became midnight.
1666
01:41:11.479 --> 01:41:13.479
So then now what is happening is I don't know
1667
01:41:13.520 --> 01:41:17.399
about Stanford, maybe you were when you are giving assignment,
1668
01:41:17.920 --> 01:41:21.960
when is the deadline midnight? Midnight? So then most of us,
1669
01:41:22.039 --> 01:41:25.520
most tourans, they will try to cram as much as possible,
1670
01:41:25.600 --> 01:41:28.239
try to solve bys much as possible, and submit at midnight.
1671
01:41:29.439 --> 01:41:31.640
And it'll be really cool to go back to your
1672
01:41:31.840 --> 01:41:35.720
system administrator to see is there so many the frequency
1673
01:41:35.760 --> 01:41:39.880
plot of pickles distribution of what time people are submitting
1674
01:41:39.920 --> 01:41:44.479
the assignment because we know means when we submit our grant.
1675
01:41:45.680 --> 01:41:47.680
Yeah, so I mean, you know, you hear about the
1676
01:41:47.680 --> 01:41:51.560
obesity crisis, the crisis of metabolic disorders, not just in
1677
01:41:51.600 --> 01:41:53.279
the US, but everywhere in the world. I mean, it's
1678
01:41:53.319 --> 01:41:56.640
really striking. I remember going to a Keystone Meeting scientific
1679
01:41:56.680 --> 01:41:58.840
meeting in the early two thousands, and there was a
1680
01:41:58.840 --> 01:42:01.399
map of the United States and showed where the obesity
1681
01:42:01.439 --> 01:42:03.880
rates were over thirty percent in adults, and the entire
1682
01:42:03.920 --> 01:42:06.159
country basically was lighting up like crazy. Now it would
1683
01:42:06.159 --> 01:42:08.479
be the entire country, but there were these kind of
1684
01:42:08.760 --> 01:42:16.000
zones in the middle that were almost devoid of obesity Colorado,
1685
01:42:16.399 --> 01:42:19.840
namely Idaho at that time. Those are now also fallen
1686
01:42:19.960 --> 01:42:23.960
under the umbrella of rampant obesity. And everyone is speculating, Okay,
1687
01:42:24.039 --> 01:42:28.560
is it you know, is it seed oils? Is it?
1688
01:42:28.600 --> 01:42:28.920
Is it? This?
1689
01:42:29.119 --> 01:42:29.279
Is it?
1690
01:42:29.359 --> 01:42:31.920
That? Is it highly processed foods. I'm guessing it's all
1691
01:42:31.960 --> 01:42:34.680
of those things, including lack of activity. But one has
1692
01:42:34.760 --> 01:42:36.760
to wonder, given everything we're talking about in terms of
1693
01:42:36.760 --> 01:42:40.680
metabolic dysfunction, late shifted eating, all these issues with late
1694
01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:43.560
shifted eating and staying up late with artificial lighting, but
1695
01:42:43.640 --> 01:42:46.119
they're not that could be one of the major factors
1696
01:42:46.119 --> 01:42:47.720
in the so called obesity crisis.
1697
01:42:47.760 --> 01:42:51.439
It's likely. You know, we always say freshman fifteen, that's right,
1698
01:42:51.920 --> 01:42:55.640
because this kid is getting fifteen pounds in their freshmen
1699
01:42:55.720 --> 01:43:00.279
near in college. And this is where I think, as
1700
01:43:00.520 --> 01:43:03.920
educator professors, it will be interesting to go back and
1701
01:43:03.960 --> 01:43:07.520
see what can we do because another thing that's also
1702
01:43:07.560 --> 01:43:11.640
becoming more and more common. For example, I give a
1703
01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:15.159
CICADI under them class means I just give two lectures.
1704
01:43:15.439 --> 01:43:19.399
And I remember when I started fifteen seventeen years ago,
1705
01:43:19.720 --> 01:43:23.479
that lecture used to be around one thirty PM or
1706
01:43:23.520 --> 01:43:25.640
two pm in the afternoon, and it's ad two and
1707
01:43:25.680 --> 01:43:29.159
a half hour lectures or it's done by five and
1708
01:43:29.199 --> 01:43:33.359
for the last before the pandemic, I realized that they
1709
01:43:33.479 --> 01:43:37.239
change the timing. Now the lecture was starting at seven PM,
1710
01:43:37.880 --> 01:43:40.279
so I was finishing by nine to nine thirty PM.
1711
01:43:40.600 --> 01:43:43.920
And these kids they had to go and eat after
1712
01:43:44.000 --> 01:43:49.039
nine thirty thirty thirty socialized fundation, fireside chat, and then
1713
01:43:49.079 --> 01:43:53.600
to express themselves, like to feel free from assignments. Why
1714
01:43:53.600 --> 01:43:56.079
are they going to do that? After the summitday assignment
1715
01:43:56.600 --> 01:43:58.960
then they're going to do that. So that's why we
1716
01:43:58.960 --> 01:44:02.439
had to go back and visit this issue. Say, okay,
1717
01:44:02.560 --> 01:44:06.239
so for adults, for most of us who are working
1718
01:44:06.279 --> 01:44:10.199
at day job, our deadline is five pm in most guesses,
1719
01:44:11.079 --> 01:44:15.399
right meants at least in university system, the person who
1720
01:44:15.479 --> 01:44:19.680
is submitting the grant of who is doing taking care
1721
01:44:19.680 --> 01:44:22.399
of my irb or ieclock. They're all living at five o'clock,
1722
01:44:22.439 --> 01:44:24.880
so for me, everything has to end by five.
1723
01:44:24.880 --> 01:44:28.119
I think for most people out there. So this raises
1724
01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:32.239
a kind of macroscopic question, which is maybe it's not
1725
01:44:32.319 --> 01:44:34.680
so much about restricting the feeding window, but maybe it's
1726
01:44:34.720 --> 01:44:38.640
about feeding mostly and being active mostly in the early
1727
01:44:38.640 --> 01:44:40.279
part of the day. I mean, you know, I could
1728
01:44:40.319 --> 01:44:44.319
imagine a time three four years from now when it's
1729
01:44:44.359 --> 01:44:47.159
about when waking up early and going to bed within
1730
01:44:47.199 -->
01:44:51.960
three hours of sunset is the protocol which harnesses all
1731
01:44:52.000 --> 01:44:54.800
other protocols. Right, you're going to exercise, You're going to
1732
01:44:54.840 --> 01:44:56.319
do it in that time. You're gonna eat, You're gonna
1733
01:44:56.319 --> 01:44:58.000
do it in that time, You're gonna socialize, You're gonna
1734
01:44:58.000 --> 01:45:00.279
do it in that time, and in doing so also
1735
01:45:00.359 --> 01:45:02.800
avoiding a lot of the issues related to disruptive sleep.
1736
01:45:02.960 --> 01:45:06.199
So that's why all these things, as you said, timeless
1737
01:45:06.199 --> 01:45:09.760
were feating is just one aspect of the Ciccredian health
1738
01:45:09.800 --> 01:45:12.319
and these are all interconnected. And going back to the
1739
01:45:12.399 --> 01:45:17.840
comment about within three hours of sunset, yes, that's good,
1740
01:45:17.880 --> 01:45:22.520
But then what happens in say Toronto or Vancouver in
1741
01:45:22.560 --> 01:45:23.119
winter time.
1742
01:45:23.439 --> 01:45:25.359
I guess they're going to bed very very early, but
1743
01:45:25.439 --> 01:45:27.760
also waking up very very early. You know. One of
1744
01:45:27.800 --> 01:45:29.439
the things that I hear all the time because I'm
1745
01:45:29.439 --> 01:45:32.079
always beating on the drum of getting morning sunlight even
1746
01:45:32.079 --> 01:45:34.479
if through cloud cover, is people say there's no sun
1747
01:45:34.560 --> 01:45:37.239
here this time of year, and I forgive me, but
1748
01:45:37.760 --> 01:45:39.520
there is sun unless you live in a cave. Their
1749
01:45:39.640 --> 01:45:41.720
sun is just coming through cloud cover. And no matter
1750
01:45:41.720 --> 01:45:44.079
where you live in the world, their sun unless you
1751
01:45:44.119 --> 01:45:46.319
live in a cave, of course. So I want to
1752
01:45:46.319 --> 01:45:48.960
make sure that we didn't overlook what was the major
1753
01:45:49.000 --> 01:45:50.880
conclusion of the firefighters to go.
1754
01:45:50.840 --> 01:45:52.760
Back to the firefighters study. So the reason why we
1755
01:45:52.800 --> 01:45:55.159
did this study was, as I said, there are a
1756
01:45:55.239 --> 01:45:57.920
lot of us who are living the lifestyle of firefighters
1757
01:45:58.039 --> 01:46:02.159
or ship workers, and shipt workers are excluded from studies.
1758
01:46:02.479 --> 01:46:05.680
So that means whatever we are learning about lifestyle or
1759
01:46:05.840 --> 01:46:10.960
even medications that may be beneficial for people who actually
1760
01:46:11.000 --> 01:46:14.520
have a normal schedule, but not for people who have
1761
01:46:14.600 --> 01:46:18.800
a disrupted schedule. And if you look up clinicaltrial dot Gov,
1762
01:46:18.840 --> 01:46:22.439
there are more than four hundred thousand studies listed, and
1763
01:46:22.520 --> 01:46:26.199
if you search how many studies are on shift workers,
1764
01:46:26.239 --> 01:46:29.840
it's less than a thousand, And then if you ask,
1765
01:46:29.960 --> 01:46:32.520
most of them are to see what is wrong with
1766
01:46:32.640 --> 01:46:36.319
shift workers. Like that's how we know that shiftwork increases
1767
01:46:36.359 --> 01:46:41.399
our risk for metabolic disease, cancer, and even some aspects
1768
01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:45.840
of dementia. But if you ask how many studies are
1769
01:46:45.880 --> 01:46:49.520
done to improve the health of shift working alone, that's
1770
01:46:49.720 --> 01:46:52.279
less than fifty. Means I have to go back and
1771
01:46:52.359 --> 01:46:55.520
check the actual number, but it's less than fifty. So
1772
01:46:55.560 --> 01:47:00.640
that's why we are super excited. We thought from CICADI
1773
01:47:00.720 --> 01:47:06.760
under them perspective, that's something to address. So this study, again,
1774
01:47:06.800 --> 01:47:10.920
this kind of study is only possible because I'm at
1775
01:47:11.000 --> 01:47:15.560
SULK and we are affiliated with UCSD and I can
1776
01:47:15.640 --> 01:47:19.159
work with UCSD physicians to do this study. So I
1777
01:47:19.479 --> 01:47:22.840
collaborate with doctor Pam Todb who is the director of
1778
01:47:22.960 --> 01:47:29.119
Cardiac Rehab Center in UCSD, and Pam has many firefighters
1779
01:47:29.159 --> 01:47:33.560
as her patients, and we both know that the number
1780
01:47:33.640 --> 01:47:37.119
one cost for death and disability on work for firefighters
1781
01:47:37.479 --> 01:47:40.960
is not fighting fire, but just getting heart attack and stroke.
1782
01:47:42.000 --> 01:47:44.279
So they have a very high incidence of heart attack
1783
01:47:44.359 --> 01:47:47.159
and stroke, and they're also highly prone to different kinds
1784
01:47:47.159 --> 01:47:50.920
of cancer, and it may be difficult to ascribe cancer
1785
01:47:51.039 --> 01:47:54.880
to disruption Cicadian disruption because they're also exposed to a
1786
01:47:54.920 --> 01:47:59.880
lot of toxins. Anytime firebones that smell of fire is
1787
01:48:00.079 --> 01:48:04.880
essentially spyle of carcinogens, and they're breathing. Even if they
1788
01:48:04.920 --> 01:48:09.920
have the hood on and respirator, they still get So
1789
01:48:09.960 --> 01:48:13.680
the idea was very simple. We know that firefighters nearly
1790
01:48:14.600 --> 01:48:18.640
seventy percent of firefighters in the US full time firefighters
1791
01:48:18.680 --> 01:48:22.640
because they are volunteer firefighters and then full time firefighters.
1792
01:48:23.039 --> 01:48:26.039
The full time firefighters seventy percent of them work twenty
1793
01:48:26.079 --> 01:48:30.239
four hours shift. So for example, in San Diego, they
1794
01:48:30.239 --> 01:48:32.600
come in at their shift is from eight am to
1795
01:48:32.680 --> 01:48:36.159
eight am the next day, and they do a trist.
1796
01:48:36.159 --> 01:48:38.760
In San Diego they do one day on, one day off,
1797
01:48:39.039 --> 01:48:42.800
on off, four
cycles and then four days off. And
1798
01:48:43.920 --> 01:48:47.279
but in some fire departments they actually do forty eight
1799
01:48:47.359 --> 01:48:50.920
hours shift. So they come for two days, two days off,
1800
01:48:51.000 --> 01:48:53.319
two days two days off, and then four or.
1801
01:48:53.279 --> 01:48:56.920
Five days off. Thank you firefighters, Yeah, I mean.
1802
01:48:58.960 --> 01:49:02.199
So, then the idea was, so we'll screen firefighters and
1803
01:49:02.239 --> 01:49:07.159
then find firefighters who are metabolically unhealthy, and then we'll
1804
01:49:07.239 --> 01:49:10.920
see whether they can actually follow ten hours time restored
1805
01:49:10.960 --> 01:49:15.159
to eating, because the point is if firefighters can follow it,
1806
01:49:15.199 --> 01:49:18.840
then everybody else will be with all that stress if
1807
01:49:18.840 --> 01:49:21.960
they can. And this is again where I should also
1808
01:49:22.159 --> 01:49:25.439
acknowledge the San Diego Fire and Rescue Department, because without
1809
01:49:25.479 --> 01:49:28.039
their health we could not have even submitted the grant.
1810
01:49:28.720 --> 01:49:32.520
And at that time, David Peconne, who is their health
1811
01:49:32.560 --> 01:49:36.640
and Wellness battalion chief, he's the one who actually approached
1812
01:49:36.720 --> 01:49:43.720
us because he's very careful. He knew that the job
1813
01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:49.039
that they do makes them weaker in long term and
1814
01:49:49.119 --> 01:49:52.199
can kill them in long term, so he was always
1815
01:49:52.279 --> 01:49:55.359
looking for new solutions, so he approached us and then
1816
01:49:55.680 --> 01:49:57.960
we said this is the idea. He said, well, I
1817
01:49:58.000 --> 01:50:01.000
love this idea because we are not asking them to
1818
01:50:01.079 --> 01:50:03.720
sleep more, or we are not going to cut down
1819
01:50:03.720 --> 01:50:07.199
there over time or shaft or change the work schedule.
1820
01:50:07.279 --> 01:50:09.399
The only thing we'll be doing is ask them to
1821
01:50:09.479 --> 01:50:12.640
eat within ten hours and hopefully we can do.
1822
01:50:12.600 --> 01:50:15.439
This so consistently between the days that they're working and
1823
01:50:15.520 --> 01:50:17.960
not working. Yes, so that means if they're from eight
1824
01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:21.199
am to eight am working, then the next then they
1825
01:50:21.239 --> 01:50:23.720
go home. Then they're going to eat on the same
1826
01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:26.159
schedule they did when they were at the fire firehouse,
1827
01:50:26.760 --> 01:50:29.000
but while at home, so they're not allowing themselves to
1828
01:50:29.399 --> 01:50:30.279
deviate from that.
1829
01:50:30.399 --> 01:50:33.279
Yeah, so we thought whether they can do it or not?
1830
01:50:33.359 --> 01:50:36.800
Because the number one goal or the primary outcome in
1831
01:50:36.800 --> 01:50:41.399
this clinical trial was physibility. Can
they do it? And
1832
01:50:41.439 --> 01:50:43.680
then second was if they do it, then what happens
1833
01:50:43.720 --> 01:50:46.159
to the blood sugar and weight and all this other stuff.
1834
01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:48.800
And then we started the study and we hit the
1835
01:50:48.840 --> 01:50:56.399
next hurdle, and that is firefighters are very very tight
1836
01:50:56.479 --> 01:50:59.479
knit community and they want to make sure that you
1837
01:50:59.560 --> 01:51:02.159
understand and their culture. And the best way to understand
1838
01:51:02.199 --> 01:51:05.399
their culture is to live the life of a firefighter.
1839
01:51:06.239 --> 01:51:09.079
So Emili Manoogian, who is the first author c and
1840
01:51:09.119 --> 01:51:11.760
then we had a Dinna Jiduri and who is now
1841
01:51:11.760 --> 01:51:14.880
in med schools. He was a research coordinator at that time.
1842
01:51:15.680 --> 01:51:18.680
They volunteered. They said, okay, we'll go to the busiest
1843
01:51:18.680 --> 01:51:21.920
fire station in San Diego and we'll live the life
1844
01:51:21.920 --> 01:51:25.800
of a firefighter. And the San Diego Fire and Rescue
1845
01:51:25.880 --> 01:51:30.720
and the city they all agreed. They reported for duty
1846
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:34.239
at seven thirty in the morning, was signed a bed
1847
01:51:34.239 --> 01:51:37.079
in the station, because all fire stations do have some
1848
01:51:37.560 --> 01:51:40.720
beds for firefighters to rest and they have assigned bed
1849
01:51:40.760 --> 01:51:44.439
so they are signed a bed. Yeah, so every time
1850
01:51:44.720 --> 01:51:47.800
a nine one one called came and if that fire station,
1851
01:51:48.000 --> 01:51:50.520
in that fire station, that fire engine was called, then
1852
01:51:51.079 --> 01:51:53.520
just like other firefighters, they had to run, get into
1853
01:51:53.520 --> 01:51:57.399
the gears, just the shoes and a jacket and a
1854
01:51:57.439 --> 01:52:00.680
helmet and get into the seat and attend the call.
1855
01:52:00.760 --> 01:52:02.439
Of course they don't go to the side, they just
1856
01:52:02.560 --> 01:52:05.560
get out of the truck, wait there, then come back.
1857
01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:11.560
So in that twenty four hours, Emily got ten calls
1858
01:52:11.560 --> 01:52:14.920
at night that she had to run, but there are
1859
01:52:15.000 --> 01:52:19.039
more than ten times they got the nine one Every
1860
01:52:19.039 --> 01:52:21.479
time the nine one one call came, then there's a
1861
01:52:21.520 --> 01:52:24.760
bip that goes out all five fighters we are sleeping
1862
01:52:24.880 --> 01:52:27.439
or resting, they get up or if they're doing something,
1863
01:52:27.479 --> 01:52:29.840
they'll look up to see which engine is called.
1864
01:52:30.560 --> 01:52:33.039
And interesting, so it's not just the ones that go out,
1865
01:52:33.119 --> 01:52:34.600
it's everyone gets woken up.
1866
01:52:34.680 --> 01:52:37.119
Everyone gets woken up. So that means in a night,
1867
01:52:37.159 --> 01:52:42.119
typical night, they're waking up ten, fifteen, twenty times sometimes,
1868
01:52:42.279 --> 01:52:45.199
so they're almost like you know, new moms are like
1869
01:52:45.479 --> 01:52:49.640
firefighters because they don't have any idea what time the
1870
01:52:49.680 --> 01:52:52.359
baby will cry and for what reason. Also they don't
1871
01:52:52.399 --> 01:52:56.720
know so similarly, so that's what Emily did. And then
1872
01:52:56.800 --> 01:53:01.920
next morning once he came back, go seem easy. Yeah,
1873
01:53:02.199 --> 01:53:06.640
So then we did this study and we essentially assigned
1874
01:53:07.119 --> 01:53:12.079
all the firefighters. We recruited fifty firefighters. We assigned half
1875
01:53:12.079 --> 01:53:16.199
of them to Mediterranan diet. Because you cannot do any harm,
1876
01:53:16.199 --> 01:53:18.720
you have to give them something good. So that's another thing.
1877
01:53:18.720 --> 01:53:21.039
They said, no, we want something that we know works
1878
01:53:21.079 --> 01:53:23.680
for firefighters. And there was a Mediterranean diet study. So
1879
01:53:25.119 --> 01:53:28.039
everybody was supposed to follow Mediterranean diet and then half
1880
01:53:28.119 --> 01:53:30.920
nearly seventy five of them were supposed to eat within
1881
01:53:31.199 --> 01:53:35.159
ten hours. We did not fix the ten hours because
1882
01:53:35.199 --> 01:53:39.399
we said, you pick your own ten hours that you
1883
01:53:39.439 --> 01:53:40.479
can stick to, but.
1884
01:53:40.399 --> 01:53:42.199
It has to be consistent from day to day. So
1885
01:53:42.239 --> 01:53:44.319
if you start eating at nine am, you finish it
1886
01:53:44.640 --> 01:53:47.680
at you know, at seven pmm and then try to be.
1887
01:53:47.840 --> 01:53:51.319
Yeah, try to try to be consistent, because we said, yes,
1888
01:53:51.359 --> 01:53:53.800
we understand that there will be some things and you
1889
01:53:53.840 --> 01:53:56.760
can take maybe half an hour here and there, and
1890
01:53:56.800 --> 01:54:00.880
we'll see how many times you can do it. And
1891
01:54:00.920 --> 01:54:03.199
what is interesting was, although they were all doing twenty
1892
01:54:03.199 --> 01:54:06.920
four hours shift, the more or less choose to begin
1893
01:54:07.000 --> 01:54:12.319
eating somewhere between eight am and eleven AM, and they
1894
01:54:13.399 --> 01:54:16.079
did not skip any meal. They had their first meal
1895
01:54:16.159 --> 01:54:19.399
or what we call breakfast, but it was several hours
1896
01:54:19.399 --> 01:54:21.760
after waking up, because they're waking up at five or
1897
01:54:21.800 --> 01:54:24.479
six and they're driving to come to work at seven
1898
01:54:24.520 --> 01:54:27.960
thirty or eight, and they're eating their first meal, say
1899
01:54:28.039 --> 01:54:32.439
between eight and eleven and then the finished meal ten
1900
01:54:32.439 --> 01:54:36.359
hours later. And what
we found is more or less
1901
01:54:37.880 --> 01:54:41.760
most of them could stick to doing this at least
1902
01:54:41.800 --> 01:54:46.279
five days out of seven days. And then at the
1903
01:54:46.359 --> 01:54:49.680
end of the study when we look at their health parameters.
1904
01:54:50.159 --> 01:54:53.560
One thing that I said, we recruited everybody who came,
1905
01:54:53.760 --> 01:54:58.039
so that means nearly one in three fire fighters were
1906
01:54:58.039 --> 01:55:03.760
completely healthy. They had no sign any any illness, no
1907
01:55:03.920 --> 01:55:07.760
high blood pressure, hig blood sugar, high cholesterol, depression or anything.
1908
01:55:08.880 --> 01:55:10.960
So since we have one third of the population who
1909
01:55:11.000 --> 01:55:15.079
are already healthy, and then everybody has slightly different conditions.
1910
01:55:15.079 --> 01:55:17.319
Some have high blood pressure, but they don't have high
1911
01:55:17.319 --> 01:55:20.680
blood glucus. Somebody has high blood glucus but not high
1912
01:55:20.680 --> 01:55:25.119
blood presser, so it was kind of heterogeneous, so we
1913
01:55:25.199 --> 01:55:28.039
did not see big difference in weight loss or any
1914
01:55:28.039 --> 01:55:31.159
wet change between these two grooves. Another thing is the
1915
01:55:31.199 --> 01:55:36.119
firefighters actually run almost eight to nine miles when they're
1916
01:55:36.199 --> 01:55:41.119
at the job because that's part of their exercise routine.
1917
01:55:42.199 --> 01:55:46.000
But then one thing that changed significantly and the time
1918
01:55:46.000 --> 01:55:50.439
restor eating groove was what we call real deal particle
1919
01:55:50.760 --> 01:55:54.079
size and particle number, because this is something that we
1920
01:55:54.199 --> 01:55:58.960
know there's very low density lipoprotein. These are athrogenic and
1921
01:55:59.039 --> 01:56:01.720
if we can manage them much better and we reduce
1922
01:56:01.760 --> 01:56:06.119
the risk for athruschlrosis. So that's one parameter that changed
1923
01:56:06.159 --> 01:56:09.439
in the time restory fitting group. Even when you combine
1924
01:56:09.479 --> 01:56:14.920
all healthy and healthy everybody, Now, if we take firefighters
1925
01:56:14.920 --> 01:56:20.159
who are beginning with high blood pressure, then we saw
1926
01:56:20.279 --> 01:56:24.760
significant reduction in their systolic as well as diastolic blood
1927
01:56:24.760 --> 01:56:27.680
pressure and the change in blood pressure. Of course, we
1928
01:56:27.680 --> 01:56:30.359
don't claim that in the manuscript, but when we talk
1929
01:56:30.399 --> 01:56:33.279
about it, some physician would get up and say, wow,
1930
01:56:33.319 --> 01:56:36.600
that looks like almost they're on a blood presser lawyering drug.
1931
01:56:37.640 --> 01:56:40.720
So the extent of blood pressure lowyering is equivalent to
1932
01:56:40.760 --> 01:56:43.039
somebody taking a anti hypertensive drug.
1933
01:56:43.159 --> 01:56:43.600
Amazing.
1934
01:56:43.800 --> 01:56:46.359
Yeah, and then those who started with high blood sugar.
1935
01:56:46.359 --> 01:56:48.720
Of course we didn't have too many type two diabetic,
1936
01:56:48.840 --> 01:56:52.239
but there are a few pre diabetic and they could
1937
01:56:52.319 --> 01:56:56.479
better manage their blood blookers. And this is interesting because
1938
01:56:56.880 --> 01:57:03.640
once shift workers come prediabetic or divetic, they have more
1939
01:57:03.680 --> 01:57:07.680
difficulty managing their blood sugar than non ship workers because
1940
01:57:07.720 --> 01:57:10.720
the work scheduled self will mess them up too much.
1941
01:57:11.199 --> 01:57:14.000
Even if they're on many medication, they have difficulty.
1942
01:57:14.840 --> 01:57:17.720
That's fascinating and I'm really glad that you explained the
1943
01:57:17.760 --> 01:57:20.920
study in such detail because I would have thought, you know,
1944
01:57:20.960 --> 01:57:23.399
from reading the abstract, and I did look at the data.
1945
01:57:23.439 --> 01:57:25.840
But if someone were to look at the abject, they say, oh, firefighters,
1946
01:57:25.880 --> 01:57:27.079
so they're waking up in the middle of the night
1947
01:57:27.079 --> 01:57:29.880
and they're you know, throwing on their gear and going
1948
01:57:29.880 --> 01:57:32.640
out to calls and do it. But I understand correctly,
1949
01:57:33.199 --> 01:57:36.239
all firefighters are being woken up by the signal, which
1950
01:57:36.359 --> 01:57:40.319
makes the firefighter population a bit more similar to the
1951
01:57:40.359 --> 01:57:42.359
more standard population who's waking up in the middle of
1952
01:57:42.359 --> 01:57:45.039
the night to use the bathroom, getting on social media
1953
01:57:45.039 --> 01:57:46.800
for a couple of minutes, or flipping on the lights.
1954
01:57:46.800 --> 01:57:49.439
I mean, it's maybe not as severe as what firefighters
1955
01:57:49.439 --> 01:57:54.039
are doing, but we know there are blood sugar regulation
1956
01:57:54.119 --> 01:57:56.840
issues related to those multiple middle of the night wakings,
1957
01:57:56.960 --> 01:58:00.760
especially if people are then staring at screens. So I
1958
01:58:00.760 --> 01:58:03.199
think it's really important that people were able to hear
1959
01:58:03.239 --> 01:58:06.520
about the deeper contours of the study. I mean, this
1960
01:58:06.680 --> 01:58:10.119
result of regulating blood sugar better is really powerful. I
1961
01:58:10.159 --> 01:58:12.279
get asked all the time. You know, I've got a
1962
01:58:12.319 --> 01:58:14.880
new kid, or I'm a shift worker, how can I
1963
01:58:14.920 --> 01:58:18.560
do this morning sunlight viewing. What I'm hearing is that
1964
01:58:18.760 --> 01:58:21.279
keeping a regular meal schedule every day.
1965
01:58:22.000 --> 01:58:25.359
At least or as close to every day.
1966
01:58:25.359 --> 01:58:26.760
It's sort of like sleep. I
always say, try and
1967
01:58:26.840 --> 01:58:28.960
get a really great night sleep eighty percent or more
1968
01:58:29.000 --> 01:58:30.520
of the nights of your life, and on the other
1969
01:58:30.760 --> 01:58:33.600
twenty percent, hopefully it's for fun reasons, a great party
1970
01:58:33.680 --> 01:58:37.479
or something like that, or a celebration of some sort.
1971
01:58:38.359 --> 01:58:41.920
That seems to me a great anchor point when one
1972
01:58:41.960 --> 01:58:45.920
can't reliably control their sleep wake cycle. Does that mean
1973
01:58:46.239 --> 01:58:49.119
that if somebody is coming off of shift work and
1974
01:58:49.159 --> 01:58:51.960
they're very, very tired, that they would be better off
1975
01:58:52.199 --> 01:58:54.880
staying awake and eating than sleeping.
1976
01:58:55.000 --> 01:58:58.399
Well it's yeah, so this is where we get into nuances.
1977
01:58:58.479 --> 01:59:01.359
So yeah, the firefighters are twenty four hour shift workers,
1978
01:59:01.399 --> 01:59:04.319
so that means and they have been working this shift
1979
01:59:04.359 --> 01:59:06.800
for a very long time, so they have figured out.
1980
01:59:07.279 --> 01:59:11.359
And one thing is yes, firefighters are different from nurses
1981
01:59:11.680 --> 01:59:14.600
and healthcare workers who have to work throughout the night
1982
01:59:15.000 --> 01:59:17.760
and they're staying away throughout the night. Foras firefighters, they
1983
01:59:17.760 --> 01:59:22.800
get opportunity to sleep. Then even with their ten calls,
1984
01:59:23.239 --> 01:59:26.680
they actually have opportunity to come back and go to sleep.
1985
01:59:26.720 --> 01:59:29.960
And in fact, when Emily and a Dinna they were
1986
01:59:30.000 --> 01:59:32.800
in the fire stess and what they observe was firefighters
1987
01:59:33.039 --> 01:59:36.199
they after attending a call, they're not coming back and
1988
01:59:36.239 --> 01:59:39.279
playing cards or trying to watch the news or get
1989
01:59:39.319 --> 01:59:43.640
this covered. They know they will just go back and
1990
01:59:43.920 --> 01:59:46.239
lie in the bed and switch up the light. So
1991
01:59:46.399 --> 01:59:49.199
whenever they got any opportunity to sleep, they will try
1992
01:59:49.279 --> 01:59:53.760
to sleep. So in that way, their sleep date and
1993
01:59:53.880 --> 01:59:57.800
sleep pressure during daytime is not as strong as a
1994
01:59:58.079 --> 02:00:02.680
night shift nurse or a truck driver who is driving
1995
02:00:02.680 --> 02:00:05.760
all night because they have their staying away throughout the night.
1996
02:00:06.399 --> 02:00:09.359
So when people say, yes, you found this and can
1997
02:00:09.399 --> 02:00:12.279
you extend it to other shift workers. My answer is no,
1998
02:00:12.439 --> 02:00:15.359
we have to go back and figure out. That's why
1999
02:00:15.399 --> 02:00:17.880
we went to the station and figured out what would
2000
02:00:17.920 --> 02:00:20.960
work for them. If I have to go and do
2001
02:00:21.039 --> 02:00:24.920
this for some nurses, maybe even I will go or
2002
02:00:24.960 --> 02:00:27.000
our staff will go and figure out. What is the
2003
02:00:27.119 --> 02:00:30.079
work schedule, what happens. Do they have opportunity to eat,
2004
02:00:30.560 --> 02:00:33.600
do they have opportunity to even take five minutes break?
2005
02:00:34.079 --> 02:00:36.439
What do they do during break? And all of these
2006
02:00:36.479 --> 02:00:40.760
things come into play. But here another thing is I
2007
02:00:40.800 --> 02:00:43.279
always said that in other time restift feeding paper we
2008
02:00:43.319 --> 02:00:47.000
see change in nutrition quality and quantity, But here we
2009
02:00:47.199 --> 02:00:53.800
also saw that somehow both groups inadvertently they improve the
2010
02:00:53.880 --> 02:00:58.520
nutrition quality because everybody was told to eat Mediterranean diet.
2011
02:00:58.560 --> 02:01:02.560
They increase the fruits and based and olive oil intakes slightly.
2012
02:01:03.720 --> 02:01:09.880
And when they had to stop eating early, they also
2013
02:01:10.079 --> 02:01:14.199
reduced their alcohol intach. And this is very significant because
2014
02:01:15.039 --> 02:01:17.880
many shift workers, just to cope with the shift work,
2015
02:01:17.920 --> 02:01:22.079
that tend to depend on alcohol at night and caffeine
2016
02:01:22.119 --> 02:01:26.239
in the morning, So they begin their day with caffeine
2017
02:01:26.239 --> 02:01:30.880
and and with alcohol. And now we can relate that
2018
02:01:30.920 --> 02:01:35.119
many normal people who are not doing shiftwork, we also
2019
02:01:35.159 --> 02:01:38.199
more or less begin our day with caffeine and many
2020
02:01:38.239 --> 02:01:41.239
of us and with alcohol. And then when they reduce
2021
02:01:41.319 --> 02:01:43.520
that eating to ten hours, and then we saw a
2022
02:01:43.560 --> 02:01:48.720
significant reduction in alcohol INTECH in the time ressore eating group,
2023
02:01:48.840 --> 02:01:52.119
but not in the standard of care or Mediterranean diet group.
2024
02:01:52.399 --> 02:01:54.720
I certainly support that we did an episode on alcohol,
2025
02:01:54.720 --> 02:01:57.960
and I was shocked when I researched that to learn
2026
02:01:58.039 --> 02:02:01.880
that zero to two drinks per week is essentially the
2027
02:02:01.960 --> 02:02:07.239
threshold beyond which you start seeing health deficits, in particular
2028
02:02:07.359 --> 02:02:12.079
cancers and metabolic disruption, sleep disruption, and increased anxiety when
2029
02:02:12.079 --> 02:02:14.479
people aren't under the influence of alcohol. I mean, it's
2030
02:02:14.520 --> 02:02:17.720
pretty incredible how alcohol has kind of escaped as the
2031
02:02:18.520 --> 02:02:23.159
opposite of caffeine and therefore not a health hazard. And
2032
02:02:23.479 --> 02:02:25.159
here I'm somebody. I have a drink every once in
2033
02:02:25.199 -->
02:02:27.079
a while, no big deal for me. I can have
2034
02:02:27.159 --> 02:02:31.479
it or not have it. But it's just striking how alcohol,
2035
02:02:31.720 --> 02:02:34.760
despite extensive data that it can really disrupt health, even
2036
02:02:35.000 --> 02:02:39.119
at three drinks per week, is just avidly consumed as
2037
02:02:39.119 --> 02:02:41.359
if it was kind of like food or caffeine. It's
2038
02:02:41.520 --> 02:02:44.680
really incredible. I want to make sure that I circle
2039
02:02:44.720 --> 02:02:46.520
back to something you mentioned earlier, because I know there
2040
02:02:46.520 --> 02:02:47.920
are going to be a number of people that asked this.
2041
02:02:48.439 --> 02:02:52.640
If I recall you said that provided that the feeding
2042
02:02:52.680 --> 02:02:57.479
window is not shorter than eight hours, that men, women
2043
02:02:57.520 --> 02:03:00.920
and children can use time restricted feeding.
2044
02:03:01.760 --> 02:03:04.159
Well, when I say yeah, so what I say is
2045
02:03:05.720 --> 02:03:06.359
twelve hours.
2046
02:03:06.800 --> 02:03:07.920
Excuse me twelve hours.
2047
02:03:08.000 --> 02:03:10.399
Thank you for that clar because we did a study
2048
02:03:10.439 --> 02:03:15.359
that was published in twenty fifteen, and again behind many
2049
02:03:15.399 --> 02:03:18.920
of our studies there is a story. So we're publishing
2050
02:03:18.960 --> 02:03:20.880
all these mouse stories, and then I would go to
2051
02:03:21.119 --> 02:03:26.600
conferences and of course the some some people would give
2052
02:03:26.600 --> 02:03:28.760
me a look saying, well, you must be doing something wrong.
2053
02:03:31.279 --> 02:03:35.000
This just breaks the XCELA thermodynamics because how come they're
2054
02:03:35.000 --> 02:03:37.239
eating the same number of calories and not getting wet.
2055
02:03:37.720 --> 02:03:40.520
Of course, by that time, we figured out that at
2056
02:03:40.560 --> 02:03:45.800
listed mouse time, restory feeding also changes. They got microbiome
2057
02:03:46.079 --> 02:03:49.600
in a way that the mice may be pooping out
2058
02:03:49.680 --> 02:03:54.039
a little bit more fat and sugar than absorbing them.
2059
02:03:54.079 --> 02:03:56.600
So one thing that happens in time restive feting, at
2060
02:03:56.680 --> 02:04:02.319
least in mice, is the liver cholesterol metabolism to biless
2061
02:04:02.359 --> 02:04:07.680
it and biless its excretion in the gut changes because
2062
02:04:07.760 --> 02:04:12.239
they got microbiome changes. So this is very nice study
2063
02:04:12.720 --> 02:04:15.560
when a major IMpower was in the lab. Now he
2064
02:04:15.600 --> 02:04:19.760
has his own lab in UCSD, and he meticulously did
2065
02:04:19.760 --> 02:04:23.399
that and we we even did bomb calorimetry from the
2066
02:04:23.479 --> 02:04:27.199
poop and metabolomics from the poop and then we figured
2067
02:04:27.239 --> 02:04:32.000
out that they excrete some some calories and then that
2068
02:04:32.159 --> 02:04:35.520
brown fad activity goes up, so they may be burning
2069
02:04:35.600 --> 02:04:41.119
some of these extra calories thermogenic. But anyway, so you know,
2070
02:04:41.239 --> 02:04:46.159
one nice thing, awesome thing about SULK is if they
2071
02:04:46.239 --> 02:04:48.640
see that your science is going well, then they will
2072
02:04:48.680 --> 02:04:52.319
find ways to help you. And this is yeah, and
2073
02:04:53.039 --> 02:04:56.560
this is when Bill Brody was our president. He was
2074
02:04:56.600 --> 02:05:00.600
the president of Hopkins for twelve yes and none who
2075
02:05:00.600 --> 02:05:05.039
has the president And that time he had started this,
2076
02:05:05.279 --> 02:05:08.039
you know, with some grant program which was funded by
2077
02:05:08.399 --> 02:05:12.359
Orwyn Jacob Rown is the founder of Qualcomm and it
2078
02:05:12.439 --> 02:05:15.840
was also a faculty at the UCSD. So he understands
2079
02:05:15.840 --> 02:05:19.239
there are very few tech leaders who actually spend some
2080
02:05:19.319 --> 02:05:23.880
time in academia. So he understood the pain of getting
2081
02:05:24.279 --> 02:05:27.159
grant money. When you have some interesting idea, I'll test
2082
02:05:27.199 --> 02:05:27.680
some ideas.
2083
02:05:27.760 --> 02:05:30.000
So yeah, no knock on the nih, but I'll do
2084
02:05:30.039 --> 02:05:33.079
it anyway because I sit on study section for the NIH.
2085
02:05:33.239 --> 02:05:35.720
I mean NIH wants to see proposals for things that
2086
02:05:35.760 --> 02:05:39.760
are so certain to work that they're mostly done, and
2087
02:05:39.840 --> 02:05:43.560
so really groundbreaking work can happen and does happen with
2088
02:05:43.680 --> 02:05:47.039
NIH funding, But more often than not, it is the
2089
02:05:47.800 --> 02:05:50.960
generosity of philanthropists like Irwin Jacobs and other people that
2090
02:05:51.439 --> 02:05:55.560
allow the really pioneering, the new stuff, the cool stuff, yeah,
2091
02:05:55.800 --> 02:05:58.600
the groundbreaking stuff, the stuff that really, no, I'm not
2092
02:05:58.600 --> 02:06:00.920
gonna say really matters. It all matter, It's all important.
2093
02:06:01.079 --> 02:06:05.319
It matters. But you know, it's high risk. And NIH
2094
02:06:05.479 --> 02:06:08.439
MEANSNIH is not just government is not making money from
2095
02:06:08.439 --> 02:06:11.520
thin air. Whence it's taxpayers money. So there is a
2096
02:06:11.520 --> 02:06:14.640
little bit responsibility or conservative that okay, so we should
2097
02:06:14.640 --> 02:06:17.479
not waste tracks us money and find the sky kind
2098
02:06:17.479 --> 02:06:18.359
of project too much.
2099
02:06:18.399 --> 02:06:21.079
Clear, We're not talking about politically conservative, we're talking about
2100
02:06:21.600 --> 02:06:25.520
scientifically conservative. It would be so careful with language nowadays.
2101
02:06:25.560 --> 02:06:27.119
Pretty soon we're just going to
sit and stare at
2102
02:06:27.119 --> 02:06:31.239
one another at the microphones to stay safe. So that's interesting.
2103
02:06:31.319 --> 02:06:33.640
So the so that's the way it started this And
2104
02:06:33.680 --> 02:06:37.119
then what we did was we I had an awesome
2105
02:06:37.319 --> 02:06:40.680
guard student and we got this funding from our win
2106
02:06:40.840 --> 02:06:44.920
and also there are some any philanthropic matter. So actually
2107
02:06:45.039 --> 02:06:47.600
the way we say is, yes, if you give me
2108
02:06:47.680 --> 02:06:50.800
fifty bucks, then that fifty bucks towards goes towards buying
2109
02:06:50.840 --> 02:06:53.920
the gloves and a friend of tubes for one post
2110
02:06:53.920 --> 02:06:55.359
dog for maybe seven days.
2111
02:06:55.439 --> 02:06:58.760
So true. I think a lot of people don't realize
2112
02:06:58.800 --> 02:07:02.760
that ninety nine percent of laboratory scientists just they don't
2113
02:07:02.760 --> 02:07:05.039
make any money off their discoveries. And even if there
2114
02:07:05.159 --> 02:07:08.840
is a patentable discovery, typically the divide between the institution
2115
02:07:09.039 --> 02:07:11.439
and the company that will actually put that to market
2116
02:07:11.520 --> 02:07:15.319
is so slim in favor of the others involved that
2117
02:07:15.479 --> 02:07:18.600
your scientists really do this as work of passion or
2118
02:07:18.680 --> 02:07:19.159
laboral of.
2119
02:07:19.399 --> 02:07:23.399
So we came up with this app, my Secredian Clock
2120
02:07:23.439 --> 02:07:28.680
at that time, and we took some lessons from tech leaders,
2121
02:07:29.119 --> 02:07:35.239
particularly from Amazon one click checkout, because we thought most
2122
02:07:35.600 --> 02:07:40.439
nutrition apps actually ask people to detailed describer. They aid,
2123
02:07:40.479 --> 02:07:43.159
go to do their food library and then port some size.
2124
02:07:43.199 --> 02:07:45.359
You said, okay, so we'll just shortcut all of that.
2125
02:07:45.640 --> 02:07:48.079
I just asked people to take a picture of the food.
2126
02:07:48.640 --> 02:07:52.159
Open the app, one click, take a picture, second click,
2127
02:07:52.560 --> 02:07:54.840
and press, sat, third, click, and when they said the
2128
02:07:54.880 --> 02:07:57.119
picture actually came to our server, did not stay on
2129
02:07:57.159 --> 02:08:01.039
their phone. And we asked one hundred and fifty six
2130
02:08:01.159 --> 02:08:04.399
people who are not shipped workers, just regular worker or
2131
02:08:04.399 --> 02:08:08.439
homemakers to be part of the study. No student was
2132
02:08:08.479 --> 02:08:10.359
allowed to be part of the study because we know
2133
02:08:10.399 --> 02:08:14.680
that there's lifestyle is like shift workers, and we monitor
2134
02:08:14.760 --> 02:08:19.960
for three weeks and so here's some nuanceys and I
2135
02:08:20.039 --> 02:08:24.439
want people to understand. So I suppose say when somebody
2136
02:08:24.520 --> 02:08:30.279
is starting to eat at say seven am, and since
2137
02:08:30.279 --> 02:08:34.680
they're recording everything, we got every single thing, even if
2138
02:08:34.680 --> 02:08:36.880
they ate half a cookie, they had to take a picture,
2139
02:08:36.960 --> 02:08:39.720
and they actually took a picture, because it's not It
2140
02:08:39.800 --> 02:08:42.159
became second natural after three or four days that every
2141
02:08:42.159 --> 02:08:44.800
time they ate something, even if there's a glass of water,
2142
02:08:44.840 --> 02:08:47.000
they actually took a picture. Because we ask them take
2143
02:08:47.000 --> 02:08:49.319
a picture of everything. We'll figure out what it is.
2144
02:08:50.880 --> 02:08:55.640
What is surprising was we found the median So the
2145
02:08:55.680 --> 02:08:59.680
median number of times people eat within a day twenty
2146
02:08:59.680 --> 02:09:04.239
four hour day is actually seven So it's not it's
2147
02:09:04.239 --> 02:09:06.600
not that we're eating three times a day. We actually
2148
02:09:06.920 --> 02:09:09.920
snacked a little bit and seven times seven times, and
2149
02:09:09.920 --> 02:09:13.680
there are ten percent of people. The top decile was
2150
02:09:13.720 --> 02:09:19.600
eating twelve times a day, and it makes sense in
2151
02:09:19.720 --> 02:09:22.600
retrospect sometimes maybe I'll fall into that seven or eight
2152
02:09:22.920 --> 02:09:26.880
before I did this study, because you know, getting off
2153
02:09:27.000 --> 02:09:30.520
having coffee with clem and sugar is one, and then
2154
02:09:30.640 --> 02:09:33.399
I ate my breakfast. That's two. Then I came to
2155
02:09:33.439 --> 02:09:37.119
the love and I found that cookie. That's three. I
2156
02:09:37.199 --> 02:09:39.159
went to a meeting and there was some cookie and
2157
02:09:39.479 --> 02:09:43.640
something else. That's another one. Then lunch, and then afternoon
2158
02:09:43.720 --> 02:09:46.000
somebody asked me to go out and have a meeting.
2159
02:09:46.119 --> 02:09:49.279
And so if you think about it, it's very normal
2160
02:09:49.279 --> 02:09:51.880
that we can go seven to eight times ten times.
2161
02:09:53.399 --> 02:09:56.319
But then if we look at what times, say I
2162
02:09:56.439 --> 02:09:59.680
start breakfast, and as I said, we see that in
2163
02:09:59.720 --> 02:10:02.279
many people they'll start at seven o'clock one day, then
2164
02:10:02.319 --> 02:10:05.600
seven thirty another day, than eight fifteen another day, or
2165
02:10:05.760 --> 02:10:07.560
they go back to six am because they had to
2166
02:10:07.800 --> 02:10:10.479
get up early and go to work. So we took
2167
02:10:10.640 --> 02:10:13.479
all these food data from three weeks and then ask
2168
02:10:14.479 --> 02:10:18.359
what is the time when your body system is expecting
2169
02:10:18.399 --> 02:10:20.399
it to eat, because it's kind of averages so out
2170
02:10:20.439 --> 02:10:23.439
it's kind of thinking, okay, maybe for you, if you're
2171
02:10:24.000 --> 02:10:27.279
eating breakfast at say somewhere between six am seven thirty
2172
02:10:27.279 --> 02:10:31.039
seven forty five eight it maybe you're expecting food around
2173
02:10:31.039 --> 02:10:34.119
seven o'clock. Let's forget about six fifteen. There's an outlier.
2174
02:10:34.399 --> 02:10:37.199
And then similarly, at the end of the day, somebody
2175
02:10:37.239 --> 02:10:40.760
is eating, finishing the last bite or the nightcap, whatever
2176
02:10:40.800 --> 02:10:43.920
you call it, say one day at nine pm, nine
2177
02:10:43.920 --> 02:10:48.439
thirty pm, ten eleven, twelve thirty or one. Let's ignore
2178
02:10:48.439 --> 02:10:51.840
that one and twelve thirty, but still we got somewhere
2179
02:10:51.880 --> 02:10:55.800
between seven to eleven thirty for that person over three
2180
02:10:55.840 --> 02:10:58.880
weeks time. So this is how we kind of figure
2181
02:10:58.920 --> 02:11:01.600
out what is the life clihood that your body will
2182
02:11:01.720 --> 02:11:05.840
encounter food. So when we do that, what we found
2183
02:11:06.000 --> 02:11:08.600
was nearly fifty percent of our dogs in our study
2184
02:11:09.439 --> 02:11:12.600
eight for fourteen hours forty five minutes, that window when
2185
02:11:12.680 --> 02:11:16.720
your body is expecting food. So it's easy to say
2186
02:11:16.760 --> 02:11:21.399
that fifty percent of our dogs eating within fifteen hours
2187
02:11:21.399 --> 02:11:22.319
so longer.
2188
02:11:22.680 --> 02:11:25.600
Wow, and quite frequently throughout.
2189
02:11:25.319 --> 02:11:29.479
Quite frequently too. And then if we ask what fraction
2190
02:11:29.560 --> 02:11:34.199
of our dogs were actually eating the conventional within twelve hours,
2191
02:11:34.199 --> 02:11:36.479
three meals a day or something like that, it was
2192
02:11:36.520 --> 02:11:37.079
ten percent.
2193
02:11:38.000 --> 02:11:41.600
So these snacking has gone up dramatically. However, you wanted
2194
02:11:41.640 --> 02:11:44.439
to find snacking, the frequency of food intake the.
2195
02:11:44.479 --> 02:11:48.119
Day and outside the breakfast, lunch, and dinner, there are
2196
02:11:48.159 --> 02:11:50.720
all these small snacks here and there. And also for
2197
02:11:50.760 --> 02:11:53.680
a lot of people, the dinner is delayed. And we
2198
02:11:53.720 --> 02:11:55.399
went back and looked at okay, so what kind of
2199
02:11:55.439 --> 02:11:58.479
food people are eating late at night and all that stuff.
2200
02:11:59.199 --> 02:12:03.239
And what came interesting, which is very counterintuitive, is people
2201
02:12:03.319 --> 02:12:07.159
who prepare their own dinner, they're more likely to eat
2202
02:12:07.319 --> 02:12:10.479
later at night because they're coming home and then they're
2203
02:12:10.520 --> 02:12:14.600
taking some time to prepare dinner and then they're sitting
2204
02:12:14.640 --> 02:12:17.159
down and eating, or maybe
they're eating next to the computer,
2205
02:12:17.279 --> 02:12:20.560
whatever it is. So that's kind of interesting that came out.
2206
02:12:21.560 --> 02:12:24.279
But coming back to your point, that's why I say
2207
02:12:24.359 --> 02:12:29.319
that nearly ninety percent of adults are eating for more
2208
02:12:29.359 --> 02:12:33.319
than twelve hours. So that means a lot of people
2209
02:12:33.399 --> 02:12:37.600
can there is scope or there is enough headspace to
2210
02:12:37.720 --> 02:12:42.640
reduce and eat within So, as I said, all of
2211
02:12:42.680 --> 02:12:46.840
these are interrelated. So when you think about children, most
2212
02:12:46.920 --> 02:12:51.439
sleep researchers agree that children and teenagers should sleep somewhere
2213
02:12:51.479 --> 02:12:54.800
between nine to ten or eleven hours because young children
2214
02:12:55.239 --> 02:12:57.800
even five to ten years old, they should sleep nine
2215
02:12:57.840 --> 02:12:58.840
to ten hours.
2216
02:12:58.880 --> 02:13:01.000
Just pumping out growth, orm and growing, growing.
2217
02:13:01.640 --> 02:13:05.720
And then the teenagers, actually the recommendation is they should
2218
02:13:05.800 --> 02:13:10.640
be sleeping nine hours because if you take teenagers, take
2219
02:13:10.680 --> 02:13:14.479
out all the stimulatory inputs to them, and then remove homework,
2220
02:13:14.520 --> 02:13:18.239
assignment and everything, and then let them kind of equilibriate
2221
02:13:18.239 --> 02:13:21.680
to their homeostasis, what they're likely how many hours they're
2222
02:13:21.800 --> 02:13:25.159
likely to sleep. That turns out to be somewhere between
2223
02:13:25.199 --> 02:13:27.199
eight and a half to nine and a half hours,
2224
02:13:29.039 --> 02:13:34.039
which also means that going back to sleep, nearly ninety
2225
02:13:34.079 --> 02:13:39.239
percent of high school students in this country are chronically
2226
02:13:39.279 --> 02:13:42.880
sleep deprived because most high school students don't get nine
2227
02:13:42.920 --> 02:13:45.039
hours of sleep on a regular basis, maybe in the.
2228
02:13:44.960 --> 02:13:47.720
Weekend, probably because of devices.
2229
02:13:47.840 --> 02:13:51.439
Yeah, and also, as I said, this new idea that
2230
02:13:51.560 --> 02:13:55.880
midnight is your assignment some mission time. I'll come back
2231
02:13:55.920 --> 02:13:56.760
to that again and again.
2232
02:13:57.000 --> 02:13:59.600
I'm hearing that again against the teachers, take note. It's
2233
02:13:59.600 --> 02:14:02.159
an interesting it's a very interesting idea as a way
2234
02:14:02.239 --> 02:14:05.039
to kind of anchor behavior earlier in the day. Yeah,
2235
02:14:05.119 --> 02:14:09.840
learning to I mean, public health is complicated because people
2236
02:14:10.119 --> 02:14:12.720
are incentivized by fear. But they you know, you get
2237
02:14:12.720 --> 02:14:14.479
more bees with honey, as they say, right, you know,
2238
02:14:14.560 -->
02:14:20.239
there's incentivizing people to wake earlier, not necessarily with the sunrise,
2239
02:14:20.279 --> 02:14:23.600
but wake earlier and go to sleep earlier, and eat
2240
02:14:23.720 --> 02:14:28.960
within an eight to twelve hour window twelve if it's yeah,
2241
02:14:29.000 --> 02:14:31.319
so that's how children. Yeah, it sounds to me like,
2242
02:14:31.640 --> 02:14:33.720
you know, all these health benefits are what I think
2243
02:14:33.760 --> 02:14:36.399
are going to incentivize people more than for instance, this
2244
02:14:36.520 --> 02:14:38.399
idea that well, if you don't do this, you're going
2245
02:14:38.479 --> 02:14:39.880
to get dementia or something like that.
2246
02:14:40.399 --> 02:14:43.279
Right, but like every day people will feel more healthy
2247
02:14:43.319 --> 02:14:46.479
and more productive. And so that's why I said that
2248
02:14:46.520 --> 02:14:48.920
even if children are supposed to sleep for nine hours,
2249
02:14:48.960 --> 02:14:52.439
of course they're not eating during those nine hours. And
2250
02:14:52.520 --> 02:14:55.319
we're not feeding children and putting them down to sleep
2251
02:14:55.359 --> 02:14:57.560
because you know, their core body temperature will be high.
2252
02:14:57.560 --> 02:15:00.439
They cannot fall asleep. So at least there's a have
2253
02:15:00.520 --> 02:15:03.039
the last meal one or two hours before going to bed,
2254
02:15:03.079 --> 02:15:08.319
because typically parents feed them and maybe give them a
2255
02:15:08.359 --> 02:15:11.439
shower or a butt and then they read the bedtime story.
2256
02:15:11.520 --> 02:15:16.239
So it's one to two hours before bedtime they're finishing food. Similarly,
2257
02:15:16.239 --> 02:15:18.720
on the other end, after they wake up, it's not
2258
02:15:18.800 --> 02:15:22.600
that we're waking them up and then feeding them. Hopefully
2259
02:15:22.680 --> 02:15:25.920
we're not doing that, so that's at twelve hours seems
2260
02:15:25.920 --> 02:15:29.840
to be optimum. And it's not only I'm saying that.
2261
02:15:29.920 --> 02:15:34.119
If we put all the health recommendations together from pediatrics
2262
02:15:34.239 --> 02:15:35.800
and then it makes sense.
2263
02:15:37.479 --> 02:15:41.119
Fascinating. I have a question about structuring meal intake or
2264
02:15:41.119 --> 02:15:45.479
food intake during the eating window. I have a good friend,
2265
02:15:45.680 --> 02:15:49.640
actually he's the neurosurgeon at Neuralink now, but he came
2266
02:15:49.720 --> 02:15:54.000
up through Stanford and he has a habit of eating,
2267
02:15:54.239 --> 02:15:57.239
of skipping one meal per day within a feeding window.
2268
02:15:57.399 --> 02:15:59.640
So it might be breakfast, lunch, skip dinner one day,
2269
02:16:00.039 --> 02:16:03.880
then it might be breakfast, dinner the next day, lunch
2270
02:16:03.960 --> 02:16:06.319
and dinner the next one. So it's not in keeping
2271
02:16:06.319 --> 02:16:09.279
with the
same start time always, but the end time
2272
02:16:09.359 --> 02:16:12.439
is either going to be earlier or there's a gait.
2273
02:16:12.560 --> 02:16:16.199
It's never later. Yeah, it's never later. What do you
2274
02:16:16.199 --> 02:16:19.359
think about that as a strategy. You know, in many
2275
02:16:19.359 --> 02:16:22.680
ways it feels like that fits with the way that
2276
02:16:22.720 --> 02:16:25.600
a lot of people's lives run. So sometimes, for instance,
2277
02:16:25.640 --> 02:16:27.079
if I'm in a podcast, I don't tend to eat
2278
02:16:27.159 --> 02:16:28.399
much during the middle of the day because it makes
2279
02:16:28.399 --> 02:16:31.920
me a little bit groggy, the post perennial dip and energy.
2280
02:16:32.000 --> 02:16:34.920
So I'll do breakfast well, but again at eleven and
2281
02:16:34.920 --> 02:16:36.920
that's a first That's when I break my fast eleven
2282
02:16:37.000 --> 02:16:40.000
ish and then dinner, maybe a snack in the middle
2283
02:16:40.000 --> 02:16:42.000
of the day. But other days it's three meals other
2284
02:16:42.159 --> 02:16:47.200
So does it matter overall, as long as one isn't
2285
02:16:47.639 --> 02:16:50.760
allowing the start time and the ending time to drift out,
2286
02:16:50.920 --> 02:16:53.479
is it okay? If you go from twelve hours to
2287
02:16:53.559 --> 02:16:57.239
ten to eight, eight, ten, four twelve, As long as
2288
02:16:57.280 --> 02:17:00.799
you don't exceed that the brackets, are you okay?
2289
02:17:01.639 --> 02:17:03.959
So this is where the Cicadian aspect come in because
2290
02:17:04.079 --> 02:17:08.159
if you're going, if you're moving that breakfast time or
2291
02:17:08.200 --> 02:17:13.520
dinner time three four hours, essentially causing maybe a metabolic
2292
02:17:13.639 --> 02:17:17.360
jet lag. You know, in short term, in weeks, months,
2293
02:17:17.440 --> 02:17:20.680
or maybe even a few years, you may not see
2294
02:17:20.719 --> 02:17:24.399
any change. But at the same time we don't know
2295
02:17:24.440 --> 02:17:26.879
what is the long term consequences. One thing is we
2296
02:17:26.920 --> 02:17:30.440
always think, I'll come back to this point again and again.
2297
02:17:30.479 --> 02:17:32.520
We think that a body where it is the marker
2298
02:17:32.559 --> 02:17:35.760
of health, our body composition is a marker of health.
2299
02:17:35.879 --> 02:17:41.399
It's not always true because as I said, drifts, feeling,
2300
02:17:42.399 --> 02:17:47.600
you know, having some pang of depression or anxiety.
2301
02:17:46.840 --> 02:17:50.840
High people have, or low body fab you are very
2302
02:17:50.920 --> 02:17:51.479
high il deal.
2303
02:17:51.680 --> 02:17:55.159
Yeah, So those are the things that we don't connect
2304
02:17:55.559 --> 02:17:59.239
with our habit and since Cicadian under them and meal
2305
02:17:59.319 --> 02:18:05.520
timing meals structure now is a very new field. I
2306
02:18:05.520 --> 02:18:08.000
think good studies
will come out only in a few years,
2307
02:18:08.000 --> 02:18:10.680
because right now people are just going back and retrospectively
2308
02:18:10.680 --> 02:18:13.440
looking at some diet record, one day of diet record
2309
02:18:13.440 --> 02:18:16.520
and trying to glean too much out of it. But
2310
02:18:16.600 --> 02:18:19.920
I think hopefully things will improve where people will become
2311
02:18:20.120 --> 02:18:22.680
it will become standard to at least look for one
2312
02:18:22.879 --> 02:18:26.959
week of diet record mid time and what they're eating
2313
02:18:27.200 --> 02:18:30.840
all that stuff, because there are now mouse studies also
2314
02:18:30.920 --> 02:18:36.040
showing whether front loading carbohydrate or front loading fat or
2315
02:18:36.280 --> 02:18:40.719
protein has benefit over so I think these studies are starting,
2316
02:18:40.760 --> 02:18:44.520
so I should not comment whether that's good or bad.
2317
02:18:44.959 --> 02:18:46.719
I think it's great to hold off until then we
2318
02:18:46.760 --> 02:18:50.079
have you back on to discuss. I have a question
2319
02:18:50.120 --> 02:18:54.680
about fasting on the longer term, and there is a
2320
02:18:54.719 --> 02:18:57.479
near infinite space we could explore two days of faster
2321
02:18:57.600 --> 02:19:00.440
one day. I know people that everyone's in a while,
2322
02:19:00.479 --> 02:19:04.159
they just decide I'm fasting. They've either been eating too
2323
02:19:04.239 --> 02:19:07.040
much at parties, or they're not feeling well or whatever.
2324
02:19:07.120 --> 02:19:09.959
They just decide I'm fasting for twenty four hours, and
2325
02:19:10.000 --> 02:19:13.440
they'll still consume water and caffeine, but they'll just fast.
2326
02:19:13.479 --> 02:19:17.200
Is there any health benefit or detriment? You mentioned the
2327
02:19:17.200 --> 02:19:20.239
circadian clock shifting effects, But if somebody wakes up on
2328
02:19:20.319 --> 02:19:23.520
Sunday and they you know, they eat too much, or
2329
02:19:23.559 --> 02:19:25.120
they feel they eat too much, or they don't like
2330
02:19:25.120 --> 02:19:26.879
the food they eat on Saturday, they're not really feeling
2331
02:19:26.920 --> 02:19:29.680
it and they're just going to fast into Monday, is
2332
02:19:29.719 --> 02:19:34.600
there any known benefit or health detriment to doing that
2333
02:19:34.680 --> 02:19:35.200
kind of thing.
2334
02:19:35.319 --> 02:19:39.639
Yeah, there's actually a rich literature on this complete fast
2335
02:19:40.760 --> 02:19:45.040
and impact. In many religion, people practiced complete fast as
2336
02:19:45.040 --> 02:19:50.319
you were, to cleanse their body, and people have seen
2337
02:19:50.399 --> 02:19:53.200
that there are benefits to that. So in fact, every
2338
02:19:53.200 --> 02:19:57.799
other day eating in mouse model or even in humans
2339
02:19:57.799 --> 02:20:01.319
that are also initially some stories were done, there are
2340
02:20:01.319
--> 02:20:05.799
many health benefits. And right now they are even fasting
2341
02:20:05.799 --> 02:20:10.280
clinics in Germany where people check in and they're under
2342
02:20:10.799 --> 02:20:15.399
strict supervision and then they do complete fast or maybe
2343
02:20:16.079 --> 02:20:18.399
a small bowl of soup which has one hundred two
2344
02:20:18.440 --> 02:20:23.840
hundred colocal and that's all they get to eat. Sometimes two,
2345
02:20:23.840 --> 02:20:25.879
three days, four days, five days, even they have gone
2346
02:20:25.920 --> 02:20:27.840
off to three or four weeks.
2347
02:20:27.799 --> 02:20:28.959
For sake of weight losses.
2348
02:20:28.959 --> 02:20:33.000
That why, for many different things, and they come out
2349
02:20:33.040 --> 02:20:37.120
pretty well healthy. Of course they're under supervision, make sure
2350
02:20:37.159 --> 02:20:43.959
that they're getting macro micronutrients, sorry, the micronutrients, vitamins and electrolytes.
2351
02:20:45.159 --> 02:20:48.680
So those studies are pretty solid. People have observed that.
2352
02:20:48.879 --> 02:20:52.000
And then in fact there are even idea that fasting,
2353
02:20:52.200 --> 02:20:55.399
this kind of fasting can have huge impact on brain
2354
02:20:55.840 --> 02:21:00.239
and people may come out of treatment resistant depression or something.
2355
02:21:00.319 --> 02:21:03.520
But you know, so those studies are very difficult to do.
2356
02:21:03.760 --> 02:21:06.360
The only case of one here and there that we
2357
02:21:06.479 --> 02:21:10.559
hear once in a while. But hopefully in future we'll
2358
02:21:10.600 --> 02:21:16.559
see whether the depression, anxiety, the mental health aspect will
2359
02:21:16.600 --> 02:21:19.680
benefit from fasting, because now as there is more and
2360
02:21:19.760 --> 02:21:24.040
more evidence that there's this gut brain access and whether
2361
02:21:24.079 --> 02:21:27.639
the presents of food or the microbiome changes in the gut,
2362
02:21:28.639 --> 02:21:32.239
if they can affect brand, then maybe long term fasting,
2363
02:21:32.319 --> 02:21:35.639
periodic fasting, a few days of low calorie diet back
2364
02:21:35.680 --> 02:21:39.120
to back will be interesting to see how it impacts
2365
02:21:39.200 --> 02:21:39.840
brand health.
2366
02:21:40.600 --> 02:21:43.959
Very interesting. What are your thoughts on fat fasting where
2367
02:21:44.000 --> 02:21:48.719
people try and limit their blood glucose by only eating
2368
02:21:48.959 --> 02:21:54.520
mainly fats, mainly healthy Typically they'll eat healthier fats, avocados,
2369
02:21:54.559 --> 02:21:58.719
olive oils and not you know, and some animal fats perhaps,
2370
02:21:58.760 --> 02:22:03.600
but as a way to keep blood glucose low and
2371
02:22:03.680 --> 02:22:05.600
also time restrict This goes back to the kind of
2372
02:22:05.600 --> 02:22:08.879
low carbohydrate thing. What are your thoughts on that as
2373
02:22:09.000 --> 02:22:12.040
a general strategy for health. I mean it combines sort
2374
02:22:12.040 --> 02:22:14.280
of two general themes that are out there, I think,
2375
02:22:14.319 --> 02:22:16.639
both of which are you know, data are still incoming
2376
02:22:17.159 --> 02:22:20.120
that restricting the feeding times it can be beneficial as
2377
02:22:20.120 --> 02:22:23.280
well as keeping overall blood glucose lower, it can be beneficial.
2378
02:22:24.239 --> 02:22:26.959
Yeah, I think there is too much emphasis now on
2379
02:22:27.559 --> 02:22:33.399
blood sugar spiking or we don't know this kind of
2380
02:22:33.520 --> 02:22:38.159
eating pattern. For example, mentuea essentially telling pancreas that okay,
2381
02:22:38.239 --> 02:22:43.920
it's are the eyelet cells that produce insulin, that is okay,
2382
02:22:43.959 --> 02:22:47.399
you can take take a break, go on vacation for
2383
02:22:48.280 --> 02:22:53.440
a month or two or three months. My question is
2384
02:22:53.680 --> 02:22:58.159
it will be interesting to see what happens to those islets, because,
2385
02:22:59.360 --> 02:23:03.360
for example, we know that if we disuse or unuse
2386
02:23:03.440 --> 02:23:08.120
our muscles, there is muscle atrophy must also become weaker.
2387
02:23:09.600 --> 02:23:13.840
We don't know whether long term consequences of this very
2388
02:23:13.920 --> 02:23:18.120
low carbider diet where you are not essentially engaging the
2389
02:23:18.159 --> 02:23:23.120
islet cells periodically, what is its impact. So if there
2390
02:23:23.159 --> 02:23:27.559
is no impact, maybe it's okay. Maybe because as you know,
2391
02:23:27.639 --> 02:23:32.559
many people who actually work on ketogenic diet, the researchers themselves,
2392
02:23:33.040 --> 02:23:36.639
they find it very difficult to stay in true ketosenic
2393
02:23:36.680 --> 02:23:40.280
diet because the true ketogenic diet is consuming less than
2394
02:23:40.280 --> 02:23:43.000
ten percent of calories from carbohydrate.
2395
02:23:42.680 --> 02:23:44.440
And not very many from protein. A lot of people
2396
02:23:44.520 --> 02:23:47.520
think ketogenic diet allows them to eat massive amounts of meat,
2397
02:23:47.559 --> 02:23:50.239
and that's not necessarily the case. Just one clarification for
2398
02:23:50.319 --> 02:23:53.920
people such and was referring to islet cells of the pancreas,
2399
02:23:53.920 --> 02:23:57.399
which are the ones that manufacture insulin. So the question
2400
02:23:57.520 --> 02:23:59.959
is whether or not taking in low levels of blood
2401
02:24:00.600 --> 02:24:03.520
glucose by way of a low carbhydrate diet, those islet
2402
02:24:03.559 --> 02:24:05.879
cells are going to shut off their production. Very interesting,
2403
02:24:05.879 --> 02:24:07.840
I mean, the livers are very plastic tissue. I mean
2404
02:24:07.840 --> 02:24:12.399
it tends to react very dramatically to lifestyle changes.
2405
02:24:12.440 --> 02:24:14.000
Yeah, so that's why it will be interesting to
see
2406
02:24:14.040 --> 02:24:17.600
what happens once we know that. Even muscle disuse, for example,
2407
02:24:17.639 --> 02:24:21.440
people who become bet ridden, they lose some muscle musk,
2408
02:24:21.559 --> 02:24:24.200
but when they come back and exercise, they gain it back.
2409
02:24:24.840 --> 02:24:28.040
So it'll be interesting to see what happens in these
2410
02:24:28.040 --> 02:24:31.000
people who are going through long term ketosenic diet. And
2411
02:24:31.079 --> 02:24:34.959
of course, once in a while, because of social pressure
2412
02:24:35.040 --> 02:24:37.079
or something else, if they don't have access to food
2413
02:24:37.159 --> 02:24:41.520
or something happens, they may consume some sugar, some plot
2414
02:24:41.559 --> 02:24:45.559
glucus will spike, but it's not that spike is bad.
2415
02:24:45.840 --> 02:24:49.000
I mean, the reason why we have insulin.
2416
02:24:49.040 --> 02:24:51.280
Is for good reason to buffer that spike.
2417
02:24:51.360 --> 02:24:54.200
To buffer that spike. And also, you know people always
2418
02:24:54.239 --> 02:24:56.760
say that, well, if you have insulin produced or insulin
2419
02:24:56.879 --> 02:24:58.959
like growth factor, those are really bad and you should
2420
02:24:59.600 --> 02:25:02.520
avoid that. And I think that's a little bit extreme.
2421
02:25:02.680 --> 02:25:05.440
And I mean that's the insulin growth factor is evolved
2422
02:25:05.479 --> 02:25:09.799
in muscle, protein synthesis, tissues repair, maybe even cognition.
2423
02:25:10.079 --> 02:25:13.879
So yeah, yeah, and it also goes back to as
2424
02:25:13.959 --> 02:25:17.799
ay mTOR activism and all that stuff. People get really
2425
02:25:18.319 --> 02:25:22.680
excited about how to reduce stroactivism, repromizing, and all that stuff.
2426
02:25:23.200 --> 02:25:26.479
So this is where, again from Ccadian point of view,
2427
02:25:27.879 --> 02:25:34.799
I asked people to think. So two very popular drug
2428
02:25:35.040 --> 02:25:38.399
like molecules or drugs that people think will increase longevity
2429
02:25:38.479 --> 02:25:43.639
or met forming. It's many people agree, not all will
2430
02:25:43.639 --> 02:25:48.120
come to a consensus that it activates MP kindness or
2431
02:25:48.159 --> 02:25:51.680
the sensor and the cells that sense that your cells
2432
02:25:51.719 --> 02:25:55.879
are fasting. So metformine kind of activates it so that
2433
02:25:55.959 --> 02:25:58.879
it kind of you can say, although it may not
2434
02:25:58.959 --> 02:26:03.680
be scientifically accurate, the you know, fasting an appeal, so it.
2435
02:26:03.719 --> 02:26:06.280
Sort of mimics fasting and the and the thing I'd
2436
02:26:06.319 --> 02:26:08.399
lump in there with met forman is that burberine is
2437
02:26:08.479 --> 02:26:10.639
kind of the poor man's met form and it's a
2438
02:26:10.680 --> 02:26:14.319
tree bark extract that also dramatically lowers blood glucose.
2439
02:26:15.360 --> 02:26:19.559
It mimics kind of that fasting. And then rapam ice
2440
02:26:19.639 --> 02:26:26.440
in also kind of reduces into activiation, and people have
2441
02:26:26.520 --> 02:26:33.520
shown that rapam ice in and metformin can extend mouse
2442
02:26:33.600 --> 02:26:38.840
lifespan and improve health. Okay, so now let's go back
2443
02:26:38.840 --> 02:26:42.920
to the calorie restriction study that I meant in calorie
2444
02:26:42.920 --> 02:26:46.319
restriction people are giving food as a lump sum, and
2445
02:26:46.360 --> 02:26:49.079
they were essentially doing time restriction. The mice were doing
2446
02:26:49.079 --> 02:26:54.520
time restriction if we think about it, during daytime when
2447
02:26:55.200 --> 02:26:58.760
experimenters are coming to the bibarium, the mice should be
2448
02:26:58.840 --> 02:27:04.120
sleeping and fasting, and they should naturally have high level
2449
02:27:04.159 --> 02:27:08.159
of emp kinness if they're truly fasting. And they should
2450
02:27:08.200 --> 02:27:13.440
also have low level of emptor activity because emptor response
2451
02:27:13.479 --> 02:27:17.079
to insulin, and that should go off at night. So
2452
02:27:17.159 --> 02:27:22.239
my suspicion is in many of these experiments where the
2453
02:27:22.399 --> 02:27:26.079
mice we are allowed to eat at libtum even normal
2454
02:27:26.120 --> 02:27:31.520
standard child Now we know that as mice get older,
2455
02:27:31.879 --> 02:27:35.239
they actually consume a little bit more food during daytime.
2456
02:27:35.440 --> 02:27:38.399
Which is the equivalent of human night humans nighttime eating.
2457
02:27:38.440 --> 02:27:40.440
It was like nighttime eating we know is an issue.
2458
02:27:40.479 --> 02:27:41.959
I didn't realize that was more of an issue as
2459
02:27:42.000 --> 02:27:42.600
people age.
2460
02:27:42.680 --> 02:27:45.079
But yeah, so we don't know, but at least in mice,
2461
02:27:45.239 --> 02:27:48.520
because you know, we can put de mice in calorimetry
2462
02:27:48.600 --> 02:27:51.280
look at every single by the eating how much they're eating.
2463
02:27:52.520 --> 02:27:56.200
So I guess it was natural to see that. Researchers
2464
02:27:56.200 --> 02:28:00.079
found that there is some emptor activity during daytime on
2465
02:28:00.200 --> 02:28:02.479
the mice were not supposed to have mtro activity because
2466
02:28:02.479 --> 02:28:05.719
they should be fasting, and since they ate a little bit, uh,
2467
02:28:05.959 --> 02:28:10.159
they were snacking during daytime, ampicinus activity was not at
2468
02:28:10.159 --> 02:28:17.879
its peak. So giving metformine kind of mimic that fasting state,
2469
02:28:18.719 --> 02:28:23.360
and reducing mtroactivity by drug like rapam ice in also
2470
02:28:23.440 --> 02:28:26.959
kind of mimiced some aspect of the fasting state. So
2471
02:28:27.040 --> 02:28:31.920
my suspicion is since these studies were done always in
2472
02:28:32.040 --> 02:28:36.360
mice who
were supposed to be in the fasting state,
2473
02:28:36.440 --> 02:28:39.879
and both am to sorry rap ice in an ampicinus
2474
02:28:39.879 --> 02:28:42.879
activity or metformine kind of are mimicking that fasting state.
2475
02:28:43.360 --> 02:28:46.879
That's why we have seen those benefits. And it'll be
2476
02:28:46.879 --> 02:28:50.920
interesting to see if that experiment will be done in
2477
02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:53.760
humans in long term because many people are very excited
2478
02:28:53.760 --> 02:28:57.920
about you know, there is m long term metformine study
2479
02:28:58.040 --> 02:29:01.479
and then a lot of people are actually consuming good
2480
02:29:01.520 --> 02:29:04.520
amount of rapprimise in off level they can get their own.
2481
02:29:05.520 --> 02:29:09.399
So that's my curiosity. I'm not saying whether it's good
2482
02:29:09.479 --> 02:29:11.520
or bad, or whether there is science or not. That's
2483
02:29:11.520 --> 02:29:13.879
something that will be interesting to control for and see
2484
02:29:14.879 --> 02:29:18.639
Because recently I saw one of my again close friend
2485
02:29:18.680 --> 02:29:23.159
and colleague at scripts, Kacia Lamia suited a very simple,
2486
02:29:23.360 --> 02:29:26.559
elegant study people should have done in medform in field.
2487
02:29:27.200 --> 02:29:30.799
So she took mice and then measured their blood glucus
2488
02:29:30.840 --> 02:29:33.920
at different time of the day. And in fact, just
2489
02:29:34.040 --> 02:29:37.639
like human blood lookers, our blood glucus fluctuates a little bit.
2490
02:29:38.719 --> 02:29:41.399
She saw that to them and then in every two
2491
02:29:41.440 --> 02:29:46.159
hours or three hours on different days of course, so
2492
02:29:46.319 --> 02:29:49.319
we had the same dose of metform into mice, and
2493
02:29:49.440 --> 02:29:51.639
what she found was at different time of the day
2494
02:29:52.520 --> 02:29:57.639
met foromin had very dramatic change in glucous reducing ability.
2495
02:29:59.120 --> 02:30:02.440
So which means that even if you take metformin and
2496
02:30:02.479 --> 02:30:05.120
give at different time of the day for the mouse
2497
02:30:05.239 --> 02:30:08.280
or even for humans in very long term, of course,
2498
02:30:08.280 --> 02:30:10.920
in the mice, this mice one not diabetic or any
2499
02:30:10.920 --> 02:30:13.440
thing or healthy mice to begin with, so in long
2500
02:30:13.520 --> 02:30:19.000
term we might see benefits that are very different. So
2501
02:30:19.239 --> 02:30:22.600
this brings to this idea that well, maybe met foramin,
2502
02:30:23.079 --> 02:30:26.360
say at the end of the day evening met fomin
2503
02:30:26.639 --> 02:30:31.680
may trigger that fasting state much earlier than end of digestion,
2504
02:30:32.639 --> 02:30:35.360
whereas met farmin in the beginning of the day may
2505
02:30:35.360 --> 02:30:39.200
not at least from longevity perspective. I'm not talking about
2506
02:30:39.680 -->
02:30:43.319
diabetes type to diabet this year. So the same thing
2507
02:30:43.319 --> 02:30:47.440
with emptor is emptor going to have much better impact
2508
02:30:47.520 --> 02:30:54.639
if taken during evening morning before meal. So these are
2509
02:30:54.680 --> 02:30:58.440
my thoughts that go along with all this fat story
2510
02:30:58.479 --> 02:30:59.360
that we talked about.
2511
02:31:00.040 --> 02:31:02.200
Do you take met forman or burberine?
2512
02:31:02.760 --> 02:31:06.040
No, I haven't taken, although you know I have close
2513
02:31:06.520 --> 02:31:10.520
friend and colleague, Reubenshaw is now the director of Cancer
2514
02:31:10.559 --> 02:31:15.639
Center at SALKY. Extensively works on ampicainas and its mechanisms,
2515
02:31:15.799 --> 02:31:20.520
and so it's always fun to talk to him.
2516
02:31:20.719 --> 02:31:23.399
He's a he's a fan. Yeah, I've taken berberine before,
2517
02:31:23.440 --> 02:31:26.840
and I've had two different, very distinctive experiences with them.
2518
02:31:26.920 --> 02:31:31.360
First of all, berberine when ingested with carbohydrates, and particular
2519
02:31:31.440 --> 02:31:35.239
carbohydrates that have a lot of simple sugars. Definitely, I
2520
02:31:35.280 --> 02:31:37.040
know this because I measured my blood glucose I did.
2521
02:31:37.040 --> 02:31:41.440
The experiment allows you to flatten out your blood glucose response,
2522
02:31:42.799 --> 02:31:45.200
So you know, in some sense, if you're you know,
2523
02:31:45.239 --> 02:31:46.600
there is this idea if you're going to eat a
2524
02:31:46.639 --> 02:31:48.920
particularly big meal or sugary meal and you don't want
2525
02:31:48.920 --> 02:31:51.280
to get a massive blood glucose rise, you take Burberine
2526
02:31:51.360 --> 02:31:54.079
or met Form met Form and its prescription. That's how
2527
02:31:54.079 --> 02:31:56.120
I went with Burberene because it's as far as I know,
2528
02:31:56.200 --> 02:31:57.760
it works as well.
2529
02:31:58.399 --> 02:31:59.520
At least by healthy people.
2530
02:31:59.600 --> 02:32:04.840
Yeah, for healthy people. That's right. When I took Burberine
2531
02:32:05.559 --> 02:32:08.399
and did not ingest large amounts of simple sugars or
2532
02:32:08.440 --> 02:32:13.639
carbohydrates along with it, I experienced profound hypoglycemia. I felt
2533
02:32:13.639 --> 02:32:16.440
like complete garbage for about eight hours, and I had
2534
02:32:16.479 --> 02:32:19.520
one of the worst headaches of my life. Because, which
2535
02:32:19.559 --> 02:32:21.559
makes sense. You just got a blood sugar crash. So
2536
02:32:21.600 --> 02:32:24.239
if you lower blood your blood sugar when you already
2537
02:32:24.239 --> 02:32:26.719
have fairly low blood sugar and you're not ingesting carbohydrates,
2538
02:32:26.719 --> 02:32:29.600
you can really bottom out your your blood glucose. So
2539
02:32:29.680 --> 02:32:32.079
just say it's I say that as a for two reasons.
2540
02:32:32.079 --> 02:32:33.680
One is kind of a cautionary note and the other
2541
02:32:33.719 --> 02:32:36.360
one that when you think about the biology these compounds,
2542
02:32:36.360 --> 02:32:38.520
it makes perfect sense and I think that and I
2543
02:32:38.559 --> 02:32:40.440
did not pay attention to circadian effects.
2544
02:32:40.520 --> 02:32:42.920
Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean it's a you know when
2545
02:32:42.920 --> 02:32:47.079
I joined Sulk around that we know Ron Evanswa is
2546
02:32:47.120 --> 02:32:51.040
the kind of the big leader in sick in metabolism,
2547
02:32:51.760 --> 02:32:54.760
and he works on nuclear hormone receptors. There's are the
2548
02:32:54.879 --> 02:32:58.120
master regulator of metabolism and normal cells, cancer cells, and
2549
02:32:58.200 --> 02:33:02.040
many other And what is interesting was in the first
2550
02:33:02.040 --> 02:33:06.200
few years Ron did a very simple experiment. He just
2551
02:33:06.239 --> 02:33:08.799
looked at what time of the day these nuclear hormone
2552
02:33:08.799 --> 02:33:13.000
receptors are on at genexpression level and some at protein level,
2553
02:33:13.559 --> 02:33:16.680
and he found that almost all of them have a
2554
02:33:16.680 --> 02:33:22.120
Cicadian pattern at least in some tissue. So he went
2555
02:33:22.719 --> 02:33:28.000
to that length to say even that Cicadian is metabolism,
2556
02:33:28.200 --> 02:33:31.559
and metabolism is Cicadian. The reason why we have a
2557
02:33:31.600 --> 02:33:36.520
Cicadian rhythm is to have daily rhythms in food seeking
2558
02:33:36.600 --> 02:33:41.120
behavior and eating and also go through a period of
2559
02:33:41.120 --> 02:33:44.920
time when we should be fasting. And then on the
2560
02:33:44.959 --> 02:33:49.600
other hand, all the metabolic regulators also have to follow
2561
02:33:49.639 --> 02:33:53.959
that rule. And almost all metabolic regulators everything that we
2562
02:33:53.959 --> 02:34:01.040
can think of connected to metabolizing macronutrient, protein, carb, and fat,
2563
02:34:01.680 --> 02:34:04.440
they should also have a Cicadi under them or diurnal
2564
02:34:04.520 --> 02:34:08.799
cycle to aligne or misaligned. So for example, fat oxidation
2565
02:34:08.840 --> 02:34:13.440
should be in opposite phase with feeding, and you know
2566
02:34:14.239 --> 02:34:17.600
in retrospect at that time it was kind of amazing
2567
02:34:17.600 --> 02:34:20.799
to see Ron could foresee. Of course, he's smart enough
2568
02:34:20.799 --> 02:34:23.280
to foresee and predict that this is going to happen
2569
02:34:23.319 --> 02:34:26.040
to Ccadian field because at that time we're thinking about
2570
02:34:26.040 --> 02:34:30.360
the super chismatic nuclear sleep wake cycle and we're not
2571
02:34:30.399 --> 02:34:34.479
thinking too much about metabolisy. So that's the awesome thing
2572
02:34:34.479 --> 02:34:38.239
about Salt. Being at Salt because we have fifty pis
2573
02:34:38.920 --> 02:34:43.840
really crammed
into two awesome buildings and with open live structures,
2574
02:34:43.879 --> 02:34:46.319
so you bump into each other and talk to so
2575
02:34:46.799 --> 02:34:48.959
and with an ocean view, it's an awesome view.
2576
02:34:49.079 --> 02:34:51.760
Yes, it's an amazing place. I was lucky enough to
2577
02:34:51.760 --> 02:34:53.799
have an adjunct position there when I when my lab
2578
02:34:53.840 --> 02:34:56.680
was at UCSD, and uh, it is an amazing place
2579
02:34:56.760 --> 02:35:02.440
doing incredible groundbreaking work, which of of course includes yours. Listen,
2580
02:35:03.079 --> 02:35:07.079
such and I I'm clear now that we have to
2581
02:35:07.120 --> 02:35:11.440
have you back on for another series of discussions. Seriously speaking,
2582
02:35:11.479 --> 02:35:14.680
if you'd be so kind and willing to do that,
2583
02:35:14.879 --> 02:35:17.200
I want to thank you for several things. First of all,
2584
02:35:17.239 --> 02:35:19.159
for your taking the time today to sit down and
2585
02:35:19.200 --> 02:35:23.479
discuss these incredibly interesting ideas in detail. You know much
2586
02:35:23.479 --> 02:35:27.319
of what we talk about on the podcast is obviously
2587
02:35:27.559 --> 02:35:31.159
grounded in science and often but not always as actionable,
2588
02:35:31.239 --> 02:35:33.959
and so much of what we talked about today is
2589
02:35:34.000 --> 02:35:37.040
actionable in the sense that many people are already doing
2590
02:35:37.360 --> 02:35:40.440
certain dimensions of these things, some are not, some are
2591
02:35:40.719 --> 02:35:44.639
hearing about it and considering it. You've given us dozens
2592
02:35:44.959 --> 02:35:49.440
I've listed some out dozens of tools and considerations based
2593
02:35:49.479 --> 02:35:51.559
on whether or not people are engaging in shift work
2594
02:35:51.639 --> 02:35:52.799
or not. I think a lot of people are going
2595
02:35:52.840 --> 02:35:54.760
to realize that they are shift workers even though they
2596
02:35:54.760 --> 02:35:57.479
didn't think they were, because of the nature of their
2597
02:35:57.520 --> 02:36:01.600
habits now to light and activity and so forth. I
2598
02:36:01.639 --> 02:36:04.799
absolutely love the firefighter study because of its relevance to
2599
02:36:04.840 --> 02:36:08.520
the general population. Also not another nod to fighter fighters
2600
02:36:08.559 --> 02:36:12.840
and shift workers everywhere. Thank you, And I think among
2601
02:36:12.879 --> 02:36:16.200
the colleagues I've known for several decades now, you really
2602
02:36:16.239 --> 02:36:19.760
are one of a very small few who've managed to
2603
02:36:19.799 --> 02:36:23.959
do both animal studies and human studies, but also animal
2604
02:36:23.959 --> 02:36:26.879
studies with a very clear eye and a pointer toward
2605
02:36:27.559 --> 02:36:31.280
human health. And that's such a vital and rare thing,
2606
02:36:31.440 --> 02:36:35.799
especially in this stay of extremely
competitive funding. So I
2607
02:36:35.840 --> 02:36:37.399
want to thank you for your time today, for the
2608
02:36:37.440 --> 02:36:41.440
knowledge you share. The actionable aspects of that knowledge, the
2609
02:36:41.440 --> 02:36:44.159
science that you're doing in your laboratory. We will provide
2610
02:36:44.200 --> 02:36:46.120
links for people to learn more about you and of
2611
02:36:46.159 --> 02:36:50.079
course to go to the app so people can engage
2612
02:36:50.079 --> 02:36:52.600
in some of the signs directly. And of course you
2613
02:36:52.680 --> 02:36:55.440
have several wonderful books now that we will also link to,
2614
02:36:55.520 --> 02:36:57.760
both of which I've read and are wonderful in particularly
2615
02:36:57.760 --> 02:37:00.479
the book the first book, but also a book relate
2616
02:37:00.520 --> 02:37:03.520
to diabetes and so for diabetics and people interested in
2617
02:37:03.559 --> 02:37:08.120
metabolic and blood sugar regulation there. So you know, on
2618
02:37:08.200 --> 02:37:11.239
behalf of myself and my team here at the Hebman
2619
02:37:11.319 --> 02:37:13.200
Lamp podcast and all the listeners, I just want to
2620
02:37:13.239 --> 02:37:16.000
say thank you so much. Your time is valuable and
2621
02:37:16.360 --> 02:37:18.200
the fact that you share it with us and educate
2622
02:37:18.239 --> 02:37:19.719
so many people is really a gift.
2623
02:37:20.120 --> 02:37:23.680
Yeah, thank you. And actually, likewise, there are very few
2624
02:37:23.719 --> 02:37:28.079
scientists who have taken this leadership role that you have
2625
02:37:28.200 --> 02:37:32.079
taken to come and communicate science to the public. It's
2626
02:37:32.120 --> 02:37:37.120
not easy because sometimes you have to distill it down
2627
02:37:37.159 --> 02:37:41.239
to a simple SoundBite to the point where the scientists
2628
02:37:41.360 --> 02:37:44.040
and they'll say, oh, that may not be right. But
2629
02:37:44.120 --> 02:37:46.559
we always have to keep in mind that we are
2630
02:37:46.639 --> 02:37:50.360
always living in the dark age of science. Because the
2631
02:37:50.399 --> 02:37:52.520
reason why I say that this is not my quote.
2632
02:37:52.559 --> 02:37:55.319
Actually this is from one of my scientificate or Paul
2633
02:37:55.399 --> 02:38:00.719
Simil from scripts Iola says, think about it ten years ago.
2634
02:38:00.799 --> 02:38:04.959
What you thought was right and the best has already changed.
2635
02:38:05.760 --> 02:38:10.159
But one thing is the Cicadian rhythm and aligning it
2636
02:38:10.479 --> 02:38:14.479
to our internal clock, to our habit is very important.
2637
02:38:14.639 --> 02:38:19.000
And as you mentioned, we have our my Cycadian Clock app,
2638
02:38:19.000 --> 02:38:22.719
which is research facing, but we have also disted all
2639
02:38:22.719 --> 02:38:26.280
of these down to five or six timing component and
2640
02:38:26.360 --> 02:38:29.000
we have a new app called on Time Health or
2641
02:38:29.040 --> 02:38:30.000
get on Time Health.
2642
02:38:30.600 --> 02:38:33.000
People access to that through the standard app stores.
2643
02:38:33.200 --> 02:38:36.760
Yeah, so now it's a a little an app store
2644
02:38:37.280 --> 02:38:41.040
Google sorry, Apple, lap store. And we want to see
2645
02:38:41.799 --> 02:38:44.639
how because people always think about fasting, but as we
2646
02:38:44.719 --> 02:38:50.280
discussed today, feeding fasting or eating fasting and activity and
2647
02:38:50.360 --> 02:38:54.360
sleep kind of interlinked and we have to kind of
2648
02:38:54.399 --> 02:38:57.319
balance both of these. So that was the idea behind
2649
02:38:57.319 --> 02:39:01.760
this on Time Health program. And thank you Andy, because
2650
02:39:02.079 --> 02:39:09.040
what you're doing is immensely necessary, particularly these days when
2651
02:39:09.159 --> 02:39:12.079
science is moving at a very past phase. There are
2652
02:39:12.079 --> 02:39:15.120
a lot of results coming out. Sometimes something can be
2653
02:39:15.239 --> 02:39:21.959
very confusing and you spending your time communicat science is acceptable.
2654
02:39:22.319 --> 02:39:26.559
So thank you, and you're most welcome. It's days like
2655
02:39:26.600 --> 02:39:28.760
today where I get to sit down and talk to
2656
02:39:29.040 --> 02:39:31.680
brilliant colleagues like you who are doing the important work
2657
02:39:31.719 --> 02:39:35.159
that really matters so much. And so, as you mentioned
2658
02:39:35.159 --> 02:39:38.239
a moment ago, that there's a lot of darkness and
2659
02:39:38.239 --> 02:39:42.479
confusion out there, but thank you for being one of
2660
02:39:42.479 --> 02:39:46.719
those who's shining light. Thank you, thank you for joining
2661
02:39:46.760 --> 02:39:49.920
me for today's discussion with doctor Sachin Panda, all about
2662
02:39:49.920 --> 02:39:53.879
circadian biology and time restricted feeding. If you're learning from
2663
02:39:53.920 --> 02:39:56.959
and are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
2664
02:39:57.000 --> 02:39:59.799
That's a terrific, zero cost way to support us. In addition,
2665
02:40:00.280 --> 02:40:03.200
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2666
02:40:03.239 --> 02:40:05.440
And on both Apple and Spotify, you can also leave
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02:40:07.719 --> 02:40:10.639
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02:40:10.719 --> 02:40:12.559
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02:40:12.600 --> 02:40:15.200
me to include on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put
2671
02:40:15.200 --> 02:40:17.680
those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read
2672
02:40:17.799 --> 02:40:20.879
all the comments. In addition, please check out the sponsors
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mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
That's the
2674
02:40:23.639 --> 02:40:26.479
best way to support this podcast. On various episodes of
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02:40:26.520 --> 02:40:29.600
the Hubredman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements. While supplements aren't
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02:40:29.639 --> 02:40:32.920
necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them
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02:40:32.920 --> 02:40:37.159
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02:40:37.200 --> 02:40:39.159
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02:40:39.200 --> 02:40:42.000
partnered with Momentous Supplements. We've done that for several reasons.
2680
02:40:42.000 --> 02:40:44.600
First of all, momentous supplements are of the very highest
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02:40:44.680 --> 02:40:48.040
quality and are used with various sports teams and various
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02:40:48.040 --> 02:40:50.520
studies through the Department of Defense and so on. And
2683
02:40:50.680 --> 02:40:54.959
momentous supplements tend to be in single ingredient formulations. Single
2684
02:40:55.040 --> 02:40:57.719
ingredient formulations are absolutely essential if you are going to
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02:40:57.760 --> 02:41:01.319
develop the most cost effective and biologically effective supplement regimen
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02:41:01.440 --> 02:41:04.719
for you, because, simply put, they allow you to adjust
2687
02:41:04.719 --> 02:41:07.639
the dosage of individual ingredients to alternate days that you
2688
02:41:07.639 --> 02:41:11.280
take different ingredients to cycle them and so forth. In addition,
2689
02:41:11.559 --> 02:41:15.719
momentous supplements are available internationally, which many other supplements are not.
2690
02:41:16.120 --> 02:41:17.799
If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on the
2691
02:41:17.840 --> 02:41:21.079
Hubreman Lab podcast, you can go to Livemomentus spelled OUs,
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02:41:21.280 --> 02:41:24.840
livemomentus dot com, slash hubreman. If you're not already following
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me on social media, it's Huberman Lab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook,
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02:41:29.639 --> 02:41:32.239
and LinkedIn. And at all of those places I cover
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02:41:32.319 --> 02:41:34.559
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02:41:34.559 --> 02:41:36.559
the contents of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of
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02:41:36.600 --> 02:41:38.959
which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman
2698
02:41:39.040 --> 02:41:42.280
Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
2699
02:41:42.360 --> 02:41:44.600
If you haven't already subscribed to the Huberman Lab podcast,
2700
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2701
02:41:47.920 --> 02:41:51.159
toolkits for things like Toolkit for Sleep, how to enhance
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02:41:51.360 --> 02:41:54.520
the quality and duration of your sleep, Toolkit for Focus,
2703
02:41:54.559 --> 02:41:58.040
Toolkit for Neuroplasticity, Toolkit for Deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure,
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02:41:58.040 --> 02:42:00.840
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02:42:00.840 --> 02:42:03.280
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02:42:06.040 --> 02:42:08.319
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And again, the newsletters and toolkits are completely zero cost,
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2710
02:42:14.840 --> 02:42:17.840
that's Hubermanlab dot com. Thank you once again for joining
2711
02:42:17.840 --> 02:42:20.879
me for today's discussion with doctor Sachin Panda. I hope
2712
02:42:20.879 --> 02:42:24.280
you found the conversation to be as informative and actionable
2713
02:42:24.399 --> 02:42:27.840
as I did. And last, but certainly not least, thank
2714
02:42:27.879 --> 02:42:29.200
you for your interest in science