अनुलिपि 🔗
WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:06.900
[on-hold music] You are listening to an Arc Media podcast.
2
00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:21.380
[upbeat music] Welcome to Inside Call Me Back, our members only edition, where we open the door and let you shape the conversation.
3
00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:31.660
Thank you for subscribing to the show and supporting the Call Me Back podcast and everything we do here at Arc. I want to encourage you to submit your questions on arcmedia.org.
4
00:00:32.160 --> 00:00:45.260
Today we have a special insider edition covering the recent US primary elections here in the New York area that were held this past week, and that comes with a special Inside Call Me Back guest, Reihan Salam of the Manhattan Institute.
5
00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:55.880
Reihan, who's been on this podcast before, not only leads the Manhattan Institute, but he's a prolific writer, the author and co-author of important books on US politics and US policy.
6
00:00:56.300 --> 00:01:05.640
He was the subject of a big profile in The Wall Street Journal recently, which we can link to in the show notes with his, I think, pretty trenchant analysis of what is going on in New York under Mamdani.
7
00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:11.160
So with that, Reihan, welcome to the Inside. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me, Dan.
8
00:01:11.540 --> 00:01:23.420
So, Reihan, we asked our community to send us questions about this topic, but since we don't typically have you on for special insider editions, I also get a vote here and have some questions of my own.
9
00:01:23.500 --> 00:01:30.320
And I've been wanting to do a download with you, and I tracked you down yesterday when you were like at LaGuardia boarding a plane or something.
10
00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.440
And so I didn't have a chance to get into all the questions I would have liked to have asked you.
11
00:01:34.940 --> 00:01:46.640
So I'm actually using my prerogative here as the host and as an insider subscriber myself to jam in some of my questions as well. So let me just start. Our audience is very much a global audience.
12
00:01:47.220 --> 00:01:54.090
What do you think is the significance of this election for the Jewish community, Jewish community in the United States and outside the United States?
13
00:01:54.160 --> 00:02:07.940
If you were trying to explain what happened in New York this past week, how would you explain it? I want everyone to understand that what we're seeing in New York City is very much a transnational global movement.
14
00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:12.120
This is a movement that you see manifesting in many different places.
15
00:02:12.460 --> 00:02:21.020
But when you look at this ideology, when you look at the worldview of, for example, a figure like Zohra Mamdani, he really is a kind of post-national figure.
16
00:02:21.420 --> 00:02:28.680
This is actually a live debate when you're looking at the left. There's some folks on the left, uh, think about the Social Democrats of Denmark, let's say.
17
00:02:28.720 --> 00:02:38.150
There, there are many on the left who think we want to be left patriots. We are invested in the nation state. We believe in the nation state as a vehicle of a working class coalition.
18
00:02:38.160 --> 00:02:47.630
Then there are others who see their movement as transnational, and they see themselves as part of a global movement that is anti-imperialist, that is trying to unite workers around the world.
19
00:02:47.810 --> 00:02:57.700
And their sensibility is almost that the US war machine and the NATO alliance, that these are structures that are actually the bad guys rather than the good guys.
20
00:02:58.220 --> 00:03:10.880
The fixation on Israel, the Gaza cult, this is something that is not unique to the five boroughs of New York City, as your listeners know extremely well. So that's one thing people really need to understand.
21
00:03:10.940 --> 00:03:21.540
This is a transnational movement that happens to have a branch office in the United States responding to unique conditions in the United States, and their big fixation is foreign policy.
22
00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:29.840
Domestic policy, there's an agenda there. There's a big revolutionary radical agenda there. But the thing is that the mainstream Democratic Party has also moved left.
23
00:03:30.200 --> 00:03:41.680
The thing that's really different is where they stand on Cuba, on Venezuela, on Russia's war against Ukraine, and of course, on Israel. And that's been really galvanizing for them. But that's very much at their core.
24
00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:44.440
And we'll come back to the UK experience with this.
25
00:03:44.500 --> 00:03:56.600
But much like when Jeremy Corbyn took over the Labour Party in the UK and ran for prime minister in twenty seventeen, obviously the Jewish community was very focused on this election in the UK.
26
00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:05.500
The chief rabbi of the UK, in an almost unprecedented way, came out and spoke out against Corbyn and all but endorsed his opponent.
27
00:04:05.510 --> 00:04:13.720
This was an issue in the UK, but it was also, you know, communities around the world were following this election because it had a directional impact that went far beyond the UK.
28
00:04:13.760 --> 00:04:21.829
And I think what you're saying here is this is similar to that. No, no, Dan, Dan, I mean, the UK, I'm so glad you raised it. There is a magazine in the UK called Tribune.
29
00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:29.960
This is a magazine that's been around for decades, but it was recently rebooted some years ago. This was around the Corbyn energy and that phenomenon.
30
00:04:30.340 --> 00:04:39.420
It was rebooted by a group of folks who are also connected to Jacobin magazine in the United States. Literally, a lot of the talent is back and forth transatlantic.
31
00:04:39.900 --> 00:04:50.680
So actually, when you're looking at the DSA, the message that they want you to hear as a mainstream Democratic voter is that, "Hey,
Load full transcript
you know, we want America to be more like Denmark.
32
00:04:50.760 --> 00:04:58.500
We want America to be more like Sweden," right? But actually, you know, again, when you look at those social democratic parties, they have a very different posture and approach.
33
00:04:58.900 --> 00:05:08.800
Whereas if you look at the DSA, it's actually much more like Jeremy Corbyn. And Jeremy Corbyn eventually within the labor movement, you know, they were able to fight him off and marginalize him.
34
00:05:08.880 --> 00:05:14.240
That presence is still there, but momentum and what have you. Now he's in a separate party. Now you've got the Green Party.
35
00:05:14.640 --> 00:05:20.420
But here in the United States, you're still in a kind of earlier phase where a movement that has that Corbyn worldview.
36
00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:37.500
The Corbyn worldview, it is something that is certainly genuinely revolutionary Marxist in its orientation, but also vehemently anti-Israel, anti-imperial, anti-NATO down the line, and also very connected to Third World revolutionary movements.
37
00:05:37.820 --> 00:05:44.320
For example, like the Chávez, Maduro governments in Venez- uh, Venezuela. That is a really core conviction. It's not a sideshow.
38
00:05:44.660 --> 00:06:04.080
And then the way that they brought in Muslims and causes adjacent to radical Islam, this is an issue that you have to talk about carefully, but that has been rocket fuel in the UK for these movements to give them real grassroots presence, real voting blocks in kind of deep urban ethnic districts.
39
00:06:04.320 --> 00:06:17.560
Okay, so in the case of the elections in New York, with both socialism and antisemitism playing a role in the outcome of these elections, if I use the like chicken and egg structure, which is the egg and which is the chicken?
40
00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:24.860
In other words, is antisemitism the main dish, to mix a whole lot of metaphors here, or the spice that gets people to sign up for socialism?
41
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:31.340
It's like an ideology that's hard to swallow, so antisemitism serves a purpose here. I'm j- I'm just trying to think what is the driver?
42
00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:42.380
So the driver, one way to think about it is, if you embrace this style of socialist revolutionary politics, the whole idea is to find an adversary.
43
00:06:43.020 --> 00:06:50.460
You wanna organize, you want to actually get people out on the streets, you wanna get people knocking on doors. What is the cause that gets you to do that?
44
00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:55.580
So for millennial socialism, the clause was the so-called climate emergency, okay?
45
00:06:55.600 --> 00:07:03.400
The thing with the climate emergency is that it actually proved an incredible electoral albatross because it raises the cost of living and was actually too abstract.
46
00:07:03.940 --> 00:07:09.940
It was drawing people in, "Oh, the world's gonna be destroyed by the year twenty thirty. We're all gonna be
underwater. It's gonna be a kind of emergency."
47
00:07:10.460 --> 00:07:19.340
That didn't quite work because it didn't give you a clear, focused enough energy. You know, one energy was the fossil fuel industry, et cetera, but it just wasn't clear and focused enough.
48
00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:28.140
When you're looking at Israel, but you're also looking at Jewish power, that is something that becomes a much more vivid enemy to organize against.
49
00:07:28.700 --> 00:07:40.800
So if you look at a lot of these folks in the DSA, these are tenant organizers that are organizing against landlords, but then you have a geopolitical emotional issue as well that's connecting with many different constituents.
50
00:07:40.810 --> 00:07:45.860
So you have folks who are, you know-- Think of the hierarchy, the moral hierarchy, right?
51
00:07:46.200 --> 00:07:55.220
If you look at woke politics circle twenty twenty, the moral hierarchy was at the top were the Black victims of police violence and American racism and the legacy of slavery.
52
00:07:55.860 --> 00:08:09.400
With the Omnicause, the peak victims are the Palestinians who were dispossessed of their land. Then more broadly, it is the kind of global class that is oppressed by imperialism and also by Jewish finance capital.
53
00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:19.040
You call it Zionism, but this is this kind of new hierarchy and this new adversary, this new oppositionalism that is a very core part of the worldview.
54
00:08:19.380 --> 00:08:32.480
So in a way, this is something that gave rocket fuel to a movement where, you know, the climate emergency and the kind of psychological distress around that was one thing, but suddenly, October seventh, you could go back to two thousand eight and the kind of the crash.
55
00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:37.160
You go back to the Occupy Wall Street movement that emerged when you're looking at twenty eleven.
56
00:08:37.580 --> 00:08:47.640
But then October seventh has been absolute rocket fuel, partly because you're discrediting a democratic establishment that wasn't quite willing to go there.
57
00:08:48.140 --> 00:08:54.100
They were willing to criticize Israel, willing to criticize Netanyahu, but they were not going to embrace conspiracy theories.
58
00:08:54.420 --> 00:09:01.520
They were not going to embrace this idea that Israel is the villain, you know, when it comes to the post-October seventh world, because it's a repellent, reprehensible worldview.
59
00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:10.760
But then that became a massive driver of organizing. And then, you know, look, there are some people who sincerely believe, "Hey, I'm just anti-Netanyahu."
60
00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:21.940
And there are other people who have a much more comprehensive, frankly antisemitic vision about Jewish power and the danger Jewish power represents. But then you can kind of pretend to be one or the other.
61
00:09:22.020 --> 00:09:25.560
You can move from one to the next and kind of have that as an organizing principle.
62
00:09:25.980 --> 00:09:32.460
So let's just stay on that for one moment because I think it is relevant to all these jurisdictions and all these different countries, not just what happened in New York.
63
00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:46.400
One of my criticisms of the anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, what I would call antisemitic protests and movement post-October seventh, is that some of my friends who are sympathetic to it in the United States will say, "No, no, no, no.
64
00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:51.720
What people are really protesting, it's not anti-Israel full stop. It's not anti-Zionist.
65
00:09:51.760 --> 00:09:59.920
It's against Israel policy or against specific policies of Israel or specific ministers in the government that are backed by the United States.
66
00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:12.080
It's US taxpayer dollars being used to fund a war that many critics in the United States view as unjust or immoral or not in the interest of the United States, and so that's what they're protesting against."
67
00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:22.720
And my response to that is, "Okay, first of all, I, I don't buy it, but let's just say I did. Why are there massive protests in Canada and the UK and Australia and France?"
68
00:10:22.780 --> 00:10:31.180
And, you know, we can go on and on and on and on and, you know, Sweden and Denmark and Indonesia, and it's not like those countries, Spain of all countries.
69
00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:38.200
It's not like those countries are actually funding Israel's, quote-unquote, "war machine." So there's something much bigger going on that's global.
70
00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:54.160
And when I say that, then the response I get is, "Okay, fine," but you need to understand part of the populist moment we are living in is a very anti-establishment across-the-board political moment in all these different countries.
71
00:10:54.240 --> 00:11:11.780
And to many of them, being pro-Israel or being at least for the status quo as it relates to Israel's role in the international system and its influence and its outsized power in the Middle East is an establishment position, and we, the populace, are gonna be against anything that's establishment.
72
00:11:12.220 --> 00:11:18.540
And Israel, sorry for you guys, they will say, is a product of that overall sentiment. Your response?
73
00:11:19.300 --> 00:11:29.230
Dan, so on the first point, and to get a, a tiny bit inside baseball, the mainstream Democratic position, Chuck Schumer says that, that, "I disagree with the Netanyahu policies."
74
00:11:29.560 --> 00:11:38.160
Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, is out there seeming to campaign [laughs] against Benjamin Netanyahu. That is where the party is right now.
75
00:11:38.460 --> 00:11:49.880
The moderate position among Democrats is when a guy like Gavin Newsom, possible future president, is there with the Pod Save America guys, these American Democratic politicos, talking about apartheid in the West Bank.
76
00:11:50.120
--> 00:11:55.120
So at least Gavin Newsom is not saying Israel is an apartheid state, but the whole mainstream has moved.
77
00:11:55.240 --> 00:12:07.090
If you go to, you know, these Democrats who were defeated by the DSA, the so-called mainstream Democrats, they were very left when it comes to, "Oh, I'm not anti-Israel, I'm not anti-Zionist, but I am anti X, Y, and Z," okay?
78
00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:18.100
So that's just the consensus view right now. What we're looking at is something quite different, and you're spot on. This is a global movement that is feeding in and feeding out. So it goes back to the double game.
79
00:12:18.680 --> 00:12:22.480
You do have someone like a Brad Lander where you have some political figures.
80
00:12:22.520 --> 00:12:34.320
You know, Zach Polanski is not necessarily saying- Okay, just for our listeners to-- So Brad Lander is the Democratic socialist who defeated Congressman Dan Goldman, the incumbent Democrat in this district in Lower Manhattan and- Yeah...
81
00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:43.780
and Brooklyn. He-- That was one of the big, you know, Mamdani-backed challengers to a sitting Democratic congressman, Jewish Democratic congressman, considered, quote-unquote, "moderate" on the Israel issue.
82
00:12:44.220 --> 00:12:50.900
Zach Polanski, Jewish leader of the Green Party in the UK- Yes... vehemently anti-Israel.
83
00:12:50.940 --> 00:13:02.308
I just, I just want to table set here what-- so people know who we're talking about Dan, the reason I mention them both is that Lander doesn't literally call himself a Democratic socialist, but he's someone who's allied himself with this movement.
84
00:13:02.628 --> 00:13:09.568
Polanski is someone who used to be in the UK a member of the Liberal Democratic Party. You know, he's someone who used to describe himself as, you know, pro-Israel.
85
00:13:10.028 --> 00:13:19.708
But these are figures who've adapted to the moment, right? So think of that as the outer layer. Those are the people who are trying to win over your friends, Dan, or, you know, those out of the audience.
86
00:13:20.048 --> 00:13:28.588
Whether you're living in Sydney, whether you're living in Toronto, you know, kind of wherever it is, these are the folks who are trying to basically capitalize on this youth movement, right?
87
00:13:29.008 --> 00:13:38.708
They're not at the core of the movement. They're a little bit outside of it, but they're also a crucial shield. See what I mean, Dan? Because they're the ones who are creating the permission structure.
88
00:13:39.228 --> 00:13:57.448
So if I've got these guys, hey, you know, if a guy like Brad Lander calls himself a progressive Zionist, a liberal Zionist, if he's saying that Israel perpetrated a genocide in Gaza because his daughter told him that that was true, this is a very important figure, and that's how you actually bring it out more into the mainstream.
89
00:13:57.928 --> 00:14:05.298
That's how you say, "Well, actually, you're just an
unreasonable person if you're not calling it a genocide." You see what I mean? It's this kind of gaslighting process- Yeah...
90
00:14:05.308 --> 00:14:15.158
where you actually need those figures to help actually drive this forward. Now, he literally said that he wasn't endorsing some of the, uh, Lander, that is, not endorsing one of the other DSA candidates.
91
00:14:15.888 --> 00:14:25.188
But the net effect is that they're all marching in the same direction. This is one area where the DSA in the US is brilliant. So they have a strategy for deep blue districts.
92
00:14:25.528 --> 00:14:32.468
Deep blue districts, not a lot of folks in these primaries. You bring some youth and energy, and you could win, and you're not afraid of losing to a Republican.
93
00:14:32.628 --> 00:14:43.408
So where the Democratic socialists of America, the DSA, that you keep referring to DSA, that's who it is, and that is a Mamdani, you know- Think of it as the Corbyn wing... the Corbyn wing of, of American politics.
94
00:14:43.988 --> 00:14:54.078
So where the Corbyn wing of American politics did well in these primaries is they took very heavily Democratic districts where the Democrat, no matter what- Yes... is going to win.
95
00:14:54.118 --> 00:15:01.588
In some of these districts, like I was looking at the, the Lander-Goldman race, something like 80 or 90% of those who turn out in a general election are Democrats.
96
00:15:01.648 --> 00:15:03.637
Just to give a sense, these are not competitive districts.
97
00:15:03.637 --> 00:15:21.168
These are overwhelmingly Democratic districts, and what the DSA does is they get very involved in the primary where the voting pool is small already, much smaller than a general election, and then they don't need huge turnout to actually be successful, and that's how they get their preferred candidate to be the Democratic nominee.
98
00:15:21.208 --> 00:15:30.848
And because the district is overwhelmingly Democratic in the general election, they guarantee that their Democratic socialist wins the whole congressional seat and winds up in Congress. Exactly.
99
00:15:31.008 --> 00:15:40.508
That's how you build this farm team, and they start in the city council and the state legislature. Now you work your way up to Congress, and you build up this block that is totally loyal to you and to this ideology.
100
00:15:40.928 --> 00:15:51.388
What I wanted to mention is that then you have another universe of people in red states. You run someone in Nebraska. Nebraska is a red state, conservative, heavily Republican state.
101
00:15:51.828 --> 00:15:57.527
But you get a guy named Dan Osborne, but the idea is you have someone run as an independent, not as a Democrat.
102
00:15:57.968 --> 00:16:04.728
So you get someone to run in a place where the Democratic brand is toxic, and he's running as a prairie populist. He's suited to that district.
103
00:16:05.218 --> 00:16:17.528
The one area, Dan, where you've got to be sure he's completely on
board is on Israel. You see what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So you can get candidates in deep blue districts who are the full monty.
104
00:16:17.568 --> 00:16:27.008
Then this larger movement and this larger network of campaign strategists and organizers is thinking, "How do we actually penetrate to the right as well?"
105
00:16:27.548 --> 00:16:30.748
And it's not just politics and political parties, it's unions as well.
106
00:16:31.308 --> 00:16:42.968
In the United States, a big historic traditional union, our big blue collar union was the United Auto Workers, and in American history played a big role because they were the anti-communist union led by Walter Reuther.
107
00:16:43.028 --> 00:16:45.048
They were on the left, but they were anti-communists.
108
00:16:45.737 --> 00:17:03.048
So today, the UAW, the big historic blue collar union in America that has about 380,000 members, over 100,000 of those members work for colleges and universities, and virtually all of them are graduate students, or the large majority of them are graduate students.
109
00:17:03.448 --> 00:17:18.108
So the UAW, the United Auto Workers, were endorsing these DSA candidates. One of the candidates in this district across Brooklyn and Queens, she was the head of the Clerical Workers Union, a part of the UAW in Columbia.
110
00:17:18.248 --> 00:17:26.768
Right. So when you think about old school blue collar unions, they care about, they care about getting a better pay package from GM and Ford and what have you.
111
00:17:27.288 --> 00:17:37.748
Now the real juice and momentum is with anti-Israel grad students and clerical worker. I'm... It's fascinating. So they're entering a bunch of different institutions that have been hollowed out.
112
00:17:38.088 --> 00:17:48.508
Think about the teachers unions, where you have the old guard that is being replaced by this new guard that is building power, and they're becoming the actual engine behind these hollowed out institutions.
113
00:17:48.868 --> 00:17:59.128
Okay, so I want to give you a counter take. There are some districts, and I'm thinking of New York 10, New York 7, New York 13.
114
00:17:59.508 --> 00:18:08.948
They have somewhere between, I don't know, five, 700,000, let's call it upwards of 700,000 constituents in these districts, but only tens of thousands of Democrats voted in each primary.
115
00:18:09.648 --> 00:18:15.108
So I guess my question is, 'cause the narrative is the, the socialists are taking over the Democratic Party on the one hand.
116
00:18:15.268 --> 00:18:31.128
On the other hand, you could say it's a highly motivated, well-organized minority, very narrow minority of the Democratic base, as you were just describing earlier, running up the score in low turnout races that most Democrats didn't show up for in the primary.
117
00:18:31.868 --> 00:18:39.148
So, you know, Mamdani is going around doing television interviews saying what you're watching is- This revolution of grassroots enthusiasm. Yep, the base. Yes... Right.
118
00:18:39.298 --> 00:18:54.708
And, and really, or is it just a very clever strategy to get narrow, intense participation from this group and then try to project out that there's a much more broad and consensus a- among the Democratic Party going on that's not really reflective of reality?
119
00:18:54.928 --> 00:19:06.028
So here's what's happening. Basically, you have this resistance energy in the country that is extremely powerful, right? And the question is, who is going to channel resistance energy?
120
00:19:06.068 --> 00:19:16.548
If you look at 2018, what Democrats did was they found, "Let me find folks who were former FBI agents. Let me find people who were in the CIA. Let me find military veterans.
121
00:19:16.628 --> 00:19:27.208
Let me find those people to be the face of resistance." And now what's happening is that the Democratic Party, the establishment feels very discredited because, hey, Trump won twice, guys.
122
00:19:27.548 --> 00:19:36.468
You know, what are you actually doing here, right? So they're discredited. So then who comes in as the ones with charisma and energy and vehemence? You know, that's kind of one big thing.
123
00:19:36.948 --> 00:19:43.128
So yeah, on the one hand, these are candidates who would not do well in o- You know, one of them, Aviva Chevalier, she's nuts.
124
00:19:43.428 --> 00:19:54.248
I mean, genuinely, uh, really quite extreme when it comes to particularly foreign policy issues and whatever. But talking about abolishing the police, talking about ending all deportation, zero deportation.
125
00:19:54.288 --> 00:20:02.048
These are just very extreme views that a mainstream Democrat wouldn't hold. But the thing is that the level of atmospherics, what you see is a movement that is hacking the system.
126
00:20:02.668 --> 00:20:09.888
And what I mean by that is that we have two parties. The two parties are totally hollowed out. They're ballot lines that are there to be captured, okay?
127
00:20:10.308 --> 00:20:19.188
And then the thing is, they're smart enough to know that the person who can win in Upper Manhattan around Columbia and Morningside Heights is going to be different from someone who can win in the suburbs.
128
00:20:19.688 --> 00:20:39.728
So basically, you've got the places where the DSA believes they can win the full Corbyn candidates, but there are other places where they're influencing things because basically, if you look at moderate Democrats right now, they don't feel that they have a charismatic figure who's capturing attention, but they're hacking the system because also, guess what?
129
00:20:39.888 --> 00:20:51.288
New York City is the media capital of America. It captures so much attention. Some have called it an attention black hole. So you can use that to generate enthusiasm and keep building your movement.
130
00:20:51.668 --> 00:20:59.708
So at every level, they're using the ways in which our elections are not very responsive. They're kind of
broken. We have these low turnout primaries. You have these closed primaries.
131
00:20:59.728 --> 00:21:08.177
They're using that, and they're also using the way that media and attention works to grow their movement. All right, I've got some questions here from our community. We're not gonna get to all of them.
132
00:21:08.228 --> 00:21:16.048
But Abby from Toronto says, "For those of us living outside the United States, can you provide more details and context about the DSA?" So the Democratic Socialists of America.
133
00:21:16.088 --> 00:21:26.848
So you've talked a little bit about the DSA. Maybe just a minute or two on, like, where it came from. Why does it appear to be coming at us now so fast? So this is an organization that was started a long time ago.
134
00:21:26.948 --> 00:21:33.788
Uh, it was started by a group of, call them social democrats, started by a guy named Michael Harrington, who was actually pro-Israel.
135
00:21:34.048 --> 00:21:37.148
You know, he was someone who was very critical of what he called a Third World romanticism.
136
00:21:37.668 --> 00:21:46.408
But this organization now is really a product of the post-2008 and then post-Bernie, post-Bernie Sanders 2016 presidential campaign.
137
00:21:46.428 --> 00:21:56.927
It started emerging in the kind of post-crisis 2010s era, and then every time you've had this big opportunity, like the Bernie Sanders campaign, it's grown. Then you have October 7th. Then it's grown.
138
00:21:57.328 --> 00:22:07.408
Then you have Zohran Mamdani being really charismatic. Now this is another opportunity for it to grow. And this is an organization that is a-- It's called a multi-tendency organization.
139
00:22:07.828 --> 00:22:18.288
It's a big tent group with some people who are much more revolutionary and radical, some people who call themselves Maoists who are in this organization, who are really out there.
140
00:22:18.308 --> 00:22:28.248
And then there are other people who are pretty radical by our standards, by the standards of folks like us who are center right or folks who are kind of center left, moderate Democrats, but they're focused on winning elections.
141
00:22:28.868 --> 00:22:34.267
So it's a big, sprawling organization where they also take their endorsements really, really seriously.
142
00:22:34.308 --> 00:22:53.908
They have local chapters that have a lot of autonomy, and in some big cities, they have local chapters down to the neighborhood level, where people meet every two weeks, and they knock on doors, and they really are operating between elections, building community, taking part in local neighborhood festivals, and trying to get involved in ethnic organizations.
143
00:22:54.248 --> 00:23:11.768
They take these folks who move to New York City to be a college student or a graduate student, and they try to enmesh them in community, and they try to train people who are real cadres, who are really dedicated to be people who work their way up, first as volunteers,
then maybe you organize your union, then maybe you become a candidate.
144
00:23:12.268 --> 00:23:16.008
So it's a really impressive thing. It's a classic political party.
145
00:23:16.348 --> 00:23:25.828
It's really doing what a lot of the communist and other far-left political parties have done in Europe and, you know, in other countries, bringing that technology to the United States.
146
00:23:26.488 --> 00:23:34.248
It's almost like, remember when you had little kids, and you were like, "Why am I getting colds all the time?" Because your immune system was too weak to the super viruses you were getting from daycare.
147
00:23:35.148 --> 00:23:46.108
The Democratic Party is immune because they weren't used to dealing with this kind of hardcore vanguard political party, and now we've got one, and they don't have the immunity to it.
148
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:55.600
So they're coming down with a serious virus right now, and the question is, are they gonna be able to build up the antibodies to fight it? That's, I think, what Abby from Toronto needs to understand.
149
00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:05.760
It's, it's real-- These are guys who are-- They know what they're doing. Well, Abby, I w- I'll put it in a-- I'll give you a context that I think you'll be able to relate to in, in terms of your own politics.
150
00:24:06.040 --> 00:24:08.980
Because in the US, we basically just have a two-party system,
151
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:24.290
a party like the TS- DSA's best strategy is to build up a following and build up a grassroots organizing, uh, vehicle, and then use it to penetrate into the mainstream Democratic Party and kind of stage a, a hijacking of the Democratic Party.
152
00:24:24.700 --> 00:24:33.020
Whereas like in Canada, where you live, or specifically in Toronto and Ontario, you have the NDP, the New Democratic Party, which is the equivalent of the DSA today. It wasn't always, but today it is.
153
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:47.660
So the NDP sits outside of the Liberal Party, of Mark Carney's Liberal Party, so they have a faction of the hard left that they can use to influence national politics, but they don't do it under the roof of the Liberal Party.
154
00:24:47.820 --> 00:24:52.840
Or in the UK, the Green Party is doing the same thing as it relates to the Labour Party.
155
00:24:52.900 --> 00:25:02.160
In the US, the DSA is technically separate, but they are running candidates in Democratic parties rather than running outside of the mainstream center-left party.
156
00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:14.620
They are actually running candidates of their own in the Democratic primaries as a means to take over the main-- It would like-- It would be like the NDP running candidates in the Liberal Party or in the UK, the Green Party running candidates in the Labour Party.
157
00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.540
That is how the DSA is operating now. Another question for you, Reihan.
158
00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:44.540
Leo from Fair Lawn, New Jersey with the sweeping primary victories of these anti-Israel Democratic socialists, and he rattles a number of them off, as well as others outside of New York City, and he cites Adam, uh, Hamawi, who's this candidate in New Jersey who was like a counsel lawyer to the blind sheikh, Al-Qaeda figure, and this guy is the Democratic nominee for a district in New Jersey and will most likely be the Democratic congressman.
159
00:25:45.120 --> 00:25:50.820
Leo asks, "Do Jews have a long-term future in the tri-state area?" Now, that's a big question, and it's probably we could dedicate a whole episode to that.
160
00:25:51.140 --> 00:25:57.820
Tri-state area meaning New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, which has a large-- the largest concentration of Jews in the United States.
161
00:25:58.020 --> 00:26:04.840
And I guess without getting into what is the Jewish future in the tri-state area, which Reihan, you don't have, you don't have to get into. Like I said, we could do a whole episode on that.
162
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:13.979
I guess the question is maybe just going a layer deeper on Leo's question, how did this happen in an area which has the highest concentration of Jews in the country?
163
00:26:14.340 --> 00:26:18.780
And Hamawi isn't the only candidate, too, in New Jersey. It's really fascinating.
164
00:26:19.060 --> 00:26:32.280
These suburban congressional districts, in some cases, you had an affluent suburban congressional district where you had a really extreme anti-Israel candidate, uh, who emerged, uh, through a Democratic primary.
165
00:26:32.780 --> 00:26:40.300
There are a lot of ways to think about this. One is that the demographic mix is changing, and there's a generational change as well.
166
00:26:40.840 --> 00:26:54.980
Dan, you and I remember 9/11 extremely well, and so for us to think that twenty-five years after 9/11, these are the people who are going to be elected to Congress from the tri-state area, that is something that is just very disorienting for us.
167
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:59.940
But you have to think about an electorate where now millennials are outnumbering boomers in the electorate.
168
00:27:00.120 --> 00:27:06.530
These are people who've grown up, including, by the way, young Jews, who've grown up with a revisionist history of America.
169
00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:15.340
So for a lot of people, their history of what happened in this country after 9/11 is that Muslims were being oppressed and surveilled, and they were kind of-- All these kind of terrible things were happening.
170
00:27:16.080 --> 00:27:23.759
That is a narrative. That, to me, is not the full story about what happened. Uh, and we can, you know, go on that in kind of at greater length.
171
00:27:24.060 --> 00:27:34.080
But the big thing is this revisionist history that has emerged, um, really through elite higher education is a big part of it, and we can go on and on about that. But that's really shaped the rising generation.
172
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:45.020
Uh, when
you see parents and grandparents who didn't teach their kids and grandkids, they didn't actually kind of teach them those lessons. And when you had schools that didn't do that job, that's part of the story.
173
00:27:45.030 --> 00:27:51.780
And another part of the story is that people talk about AIPAC all the time, AIPAC's influence, this and that. We now have the anti-AIPAC.
174
00:27:52.120 --> 00:27:59.160
We have a group called American Priorities PAC, which is a group that is deploying tens of millions of dollars in campaigns.
175
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:11.040
And a big driver of this group, it's the usual kind of left-wing funders, but you also have a group of people who are American Muslims who care very deeply about the war against Israel, the struggle against Israel.
176
00:28:11.450 --> 00:28:14.800
And now you've got some people like, you know, a guy named Saikat Chakrabarti.
177
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:25.480
He's a, you know, of a Bengali Hindu origin, Indian American centimillionaire who ran for Congress in San Francisco, who fully embraces this kind of Corbynite anti-Israel agenda.
178
00:28:25.860 --> 00:28:38.680
And so you've got a group of talented people, just like you had talented young Jewish radicals in earlier generations, who are coming into American life, and they're providing a lot of the intellect, organizational energy, and some of the kind of capital as well.
179
00:28:39.140 --> 00:28:47.520
And, you know, I think in the tri-state area, that's part of what's happening. By the way, none of this happens without young Jews, who are really important foot soldiers of the DSA as well.
180
00:28:47.580 --> 00:28:55.660
So you've got the young Muslims, and you've got the kind of young ethnics, but you also have Jewish voices for peace, or you have the kind of people around a Brad Lander.
181
00:28:55.700 --> 00:29:06.320
You have the people who are around this whole network of kind of left-wing young Jews for whom they see this as a spiritual commitment as well. So there's a lot going on here. Okay.
182
00:29:06.470 --> 00:29:21.540
I want to, um-- We're running out of time, and I-- There, there's a question that we got that I'm gonna read 'cause it relates to what you just said, and we're gonna get more-- we're gonna get deeper into the-- with answers to this question in subsequent episodes, but I just want to read it.
183
00:29:21.580 --> 00:29:25.600
It's Neil from Boynton Beach. It's almost like, Reihan, like you anticipated Neil's question.
184
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:36.770
Neil from Boynton Beach writes, "For decades, AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, has been amazing at organizing bipartisan support for Israel. Now, the Democrats view AIPAC as toxic.
185
00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:45.740
Should AIPAC reinvent itself, or should something completely different replace it to once again get bipartisan support for Israel?" Now, Neil, I'm not avoiding the question.
186
00:29:45.780 --> 00:29:52.480
Again, Reihan just addressed it to some degree. I do think we should get deeper into this in a subsequent, you know, episode or conversation.
187
00:29:52.520 --> 00:30:05.960
The one thing I would just say is, I think the challenge-- one of the challenges for AIPAC now is AIPAC has, as you say, has done a very good job at making the case for the US's relationship and including building a real consensus that historically has been bipartisan.
188
00:30:06.356 --> 00:30:17.716
That effort, the project to build and maintain a bipartisan consensus around the US-Israel relationship, that effort through, in this case, AIPAC, has become now an issue of division.
189
00:30:18.156 --> 00:30:29.976
The name AIPAC has become now at the ballot box. It's not like a ballot issue, has become a actual household name among certain parts of the Democratic Party and, and not in a positive context.
190
00:30:30.116 --> 00:30:39.656
However, I would say I think we all need to be very careful about saying, "Oh, if AIPAC just fixed itself," or, or, "If Israel just got rid of Netanyahu." There are like these terms, AIPAC, Netanyahu.
191
00:30:39.996 --> 00:30:45.836
Once Netanyahu's gone, the whole situation will be dyna- the whole dynamic will be improved. Maybe.
192
00:30:45.896 --> 00:30:58.996
I'm skeptical, and the reason I'm skeptical is because if you look at the rhetoric around the DSA, if you look at the rhetoric around these that are being used by these candidates that are winning these elections, if you look at the rhetoric used by Mamdani, it's not about AIPAC at the end of the day.
193
00:30:59.036 --> 00:31:03.106
It's not about Netanyahu. It's about the existence of the state of Israel, right?
194
00:31:03.196 --> 00:31:19.296
Dara Lisa, the woman who toppled one of these incumbent Democrats backed by Mamdani, on October eighth, Neil, on October eighth, she was at a rally in Times Square defending Hamas, celebrating Hamas, celebrating the massacre of Jews, okay?
195
00:31:19.356 --> 00:31:25.536
She was doing this on October eighth, holding up a sign, you can see it, that says, "Zionism equals genocide."
196
00:31:26.076 --> 00:31:55.996
Now, if you would've told me or you or Reihan or anyone else listening that less than three years later she would topple an incumbent experienced congressional Democrat and be in a position to be the next congresswoman from that district, and this was-- this path was enabled, was empowered by a socialist mayor of New York City who also does not recognize Israel's right to exist, you recognize we have a much bigger problem than any one elected leader of Israel or any advocacy group in the United States.
197
00:31:56.256 --> 00:31:59.816
Again, go back to what her sign said, "Zionism equals genocide."
198
00:31:59.916 --> 00:32:08.696
Not this particular Israeli policy equals genocide, not this particular Israeli minister equals genocide, not this particular advocacy organization is supporting genocide.
199
00:32:08.976 -->
00:32:12.816
Zionism, the foundation of the state of Israel equals genocide.
200
00:32:13.556 --> 00:32:36.276
Ro Khanna, who's a congressman from Northern California, who has been a big backer of a number of these very anti-Israel progressive candidates, including in the New York area, including Graham Platner in Maine, he just gave an interview the other day, like the day after the, these shocking election outcomes, and he basically said that the f-- in so many words, he said, "It doesn't matter who the next government of Israel is.
201
00:32:36.836 --> 00:32:37.996
Unless Israel..."
202
00:32:38.016 --> 00:32:54.476
And I forget what his prescription was, but it was basically, "Unless Israel changes its policies substantially, dramatically in a direction that I think is unacceptable to anyone running right now in, in Israel to succeed Netanyahu across the political spectrum, our policy, our views," Ro Khanna said, "don't change."
203
00:32:54.876 --> 00:33:01.656
So I just think it's important to take a step back and not overthink if we get rid of this organization or this politician, somehow things are gonna get better.
204
00:33:01.716 --> 00:33:17.356
What is driving this movement against the Jewish community, against the US-Israel relationship is much more comprehensive, and its objectives are, I think, much more ideological and sinister than just about tweaking this or that or some kind of rebranding.
205
00:33:17.676 --> 00:33:21.336
So I just had a little bit of a rant there. Reihan, I don't know if you have anything to add to that.
206
00:33:21.776 --> 00:33:31.836
No, I think you're spot on, and the main thing I want people to understand, whether you're here in the United States or you're overseas, the whole goal here is demoralization.
207
00:33:32.476 --> 00:33:42.816
The whole goal here is to get people to stop organizing, to retreat, to put their heads down. And, you know, look, there are times when you've got to be adroit and flexible and smart.
208
00:33:42.956 --> 00:33:50.456
Look at what the DSA and the broader far-left tendency is doing. They're running differently in Nebraska than they are in Morningside Heights.
209
00:33:50.976 --> 00:33:58.056
You know, they're kind of taking a different approach, and sometimes that means doing things that feel discomfiting. But I think that that's something that we need to understand.
210
00:33:58.516 --> 00:34:03.176
This is not about this institution, that institution. This is not about turf battles.
211
00:34:03.676 --> 00:34:16.136
This is about preserving these democracies, democratic institutions, preserving these alliances that have undergirded our prosperity, our success. This is about protecting the core values of the West.
212
00:34:16.696 --> 00:34:24.336
When you're looking at the assault that is happening in different countries, notice what's going on. What are the places that created a refuge for Jews and the Jewish community?
213
00:34:24.676 --> 00:34:35.896
These were places that did have these underlying values, so we're in the business of defending those values. And the point here is to get you demoralized. They're creating this momentum. "Nix, get a chip.
214
00:34:35.936 --> 00:34:39.696
Let's go out there. Let's organize. Let's, you know, kind of let's flood the zone. Let's do this."
215
00:34:39.976 --> 00:34:49.116
Because you create that momentum, then, hey, then you demoralize the people who might actually be a real challenge in twenty twenty-nine. It's not just about being the mayoral challenger in twenty twenty-nine.
216
00:34:49.376 --> 00:34:53.756
It's getting those folks to run for city council, getting those guys to build patiently.
217
00:34:53.796 --> 00:35:02.396
And the thing is, for the Jewish people, but also for the larger universe of people who care deeply about the West, it's playing the long game. It's building.
218
00:35:02.756 --> 00:35:08.556
It's remembering that actually we have a past that relates to a future that we wanna build.
219
00:35:08.836 --> 00:35:16.616
And when you're looking at kind of the other side, these are people who sometimes have a very-- The DSA is powerful because they actually are building, too.
220
00:35:16.656 --> 00:35:24.756
They kind of have a long-term orientation, but which long-term orientation is going to win? Don't get demoralized. This is kind of my big thing.
221
00:35:25.146 --> 00:35:32.776
And actually, look at the world as it is, look at it clearly, but don't get demoralized because actually there are a lot of people who share our values.
222
00:35:32.796 --> 00:35:37.576
There are many people who share our values who don't know that they share our values because they haven't learned to articulate it.
223
00:35:37.996 --> 00:35:49.956
So I feel a lot of energy right now, Dan, and I, I want the insiders here to feel that, too, because this is when you-- pressure turns coal into diamonds, and I think that this is what we need.
224
00:35:50.016 --> 00:35:57.756
We need a generation of diamonds that are gonna be able to turn this around. So I, I won't rant any further, but that's what I truly believe. No, that's good.
225
00:35:57.816 --> 00:36:05.316
I, I, I try to end these conversations on an upbeat note, so that's about as upbeat a note as, as we could hope for. I thank you for that. Reihan, we will leave it there.
226
00:36:05.396 --> 00:36:13.576
As always, helping us kind of understand what's going on and bring some clarity. Look forward to having you back on soon. Okay, Dan. See you soon. It, it was a, such a pleasure to be here.
227
00:36:14.656 --> 00:36:25.256
[outro music]