Change Management as a Learning Problem (with Jennifer Husbands) का पूरा ट्रांसक्रिप्ट

Okay, okay. 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:57.840 But he mentioned it too in that conference room, in that like weird auditorium room. 00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:58.640 He mentioned it. 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:00.159 That was the first time I'd ever heard of it. 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:01.760 It was either him or Babak. 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.599 Now I can't even remember, but it came up in that room and then it came up again with you. 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:13.199 Um so vibe coding is gonna show you. 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:21.840 Take a feeling and turn it into code. 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:31.120 Um take a feeling and turn it into code. 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:31.840 Literally that. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:33.199 That is vibe coding. 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.400 Um the name would suggest. 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.039 It is exactly what the name would suggest. 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:46.719 Um so before I actually show you vibe coding, it's worth a um a quick primer. 00:02:47.039 --> 00:03:05.120 So yes, essentially it's using natural language, you know, English in our case, and um having the AI basically take what you're describing uh in natural language and generate, you know, anything you could generate with code. 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:10.560 Um so that could be software, that could be um, you know, websites. 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:29.360 And this was sort of like a it was it was quietly something that was happening almost in parallel with, you know, we had Chat GPT that came out um in you know at the end of 2022, and then we had um GPT-4 that came out in March. 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:35.520 Um and so you know, the education sector was kind of like scrambling over, oh, like what do we do with all these chatbots? 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:42.159 And um, you know, how do we build things on top of that like leverage these like chatbots or integrate them into different tools? 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:50.240 And meanwhile, you know, folks in in the tech sector are really what they were focused on was, you know, this thing is really good at writing code. 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.560 And they were using it to, you know, make engineers more productive. 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:57.360 Initially it was almost like more like autocomplete, if you can imagine that. 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:04.000 So you're like typing some code in and it sort of like will suggest sort of like, you know, you just tab to enter and it sort of like helps you write the code like that. 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:10.240 Um and and then the capabilities of vibe coding have uh continued to move forward. 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.960 And then as and then basically what happened is you had GPT 3.5 to GPT 4. 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.120 And it was, I mean, do you remember do you remember, did you use 3.5, like the 3.5? 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.240 I've not been a user of uh GPT really at all. 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:24.720 I use I use Gemini sometimes for work. 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:27.600 So the extent of my experience? 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:35.680 Yeah, I mean, if you if you use GPT 3.5, what you would have it was like very cool, but it was it was like it was like a high school student level, right? 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:48.800 So it can like write poems and it could write essays, and it was it was cool mostly because it's just like the first time you could see just like AI almost like engaging with you as like a another sort of sort of independent agent. 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:51.279 Um, and and it did generate stuff. 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:59.360 Uh and then we had GPT 4, and that was like crazy powerful compared to GPT 3.5. 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:08.480 Um, you know, it was like now suddenly you're talking to a you know college professor, uh, or at least like a you know, a like a master's student. 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:14.079 Um and I think that's where everybody started to realize like, whoa, this is a really big deal. 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:30.319 Um, and part of that was baked in this idea that, well, the the technologies, if it it in in a matter of three months, we went from GPT 3.5 to GPT-4, a significantly more powerful model, you know, who knows where we're gonna be in six months, one year, two years. 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:39.600 And so there was this like anxiety, this like urgency around we need to just get people access to AI because it's just gonna get so powerful and we don't be left behind. 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:46.959 And so there the paradigm, I think, has been really about, you know, how do we just like implement tools and give, you know, get get kids' hands-on, you know, teachers' hands on. 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:55.199 Um, but then after GPT-4, we had GPT 4.5 and GPT-5, and then many other models, you know, like Gemini. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:02.720 It was like BARD initially, then Gemini 2 and Gemini 2.5, um and Gemini 3. 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:10.959 And and for the for the non-technical user, they did get better, but it started to get better at the margins, you know, like incrementally better. 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:20.480 Um, certainly still had all the same problems that GPT 3.5 or GPT-4 had in terms of, you know, it wasn't reliable, it got hallucinated and like made stuff up. 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:27.519 Um, and there was a sense of like almost like stagnation in terms of like, yeah, maybe this is just sort of like roughly what we have. 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:32.240 Um, but in the background, the coding capabilities of AI kept getting better. 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:42.879 Um, and like in and in particular uh last year, uh Anthropic released something called Claude uh 3.7 Sonnet. 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.920 And this was an incredibly powerful tool for coding. 00:06:48.079 --> 00:07:00.560 And it it really is what kind of like unlocked the um almost like the Cambrian moment where we're now half of all of the spend on AI right now is just for for for like coding purposes. 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:11.040 Um and and

then in the summer of 2025, a bunch of companies, including a Google, which this is what I'm showing you, is Google's AI Studio. 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:26.319 Um, they updated the user interface to be a lot more user-friendly because before you could vibe code, but it was you were still sort of like in an you know, a coding terminal and you would see lines of code, and it was just it was overwhelming to somebody who had never done anything with code before. 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:33.600 Um so they changed the user interface, and now you get um it's just very, it's very very user-friendly. 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:39.839 So I'm actually gonna walk you through um I'm gonna walk you through the process of designing something. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.199 Um and we're gonna do a little design thinking together. 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:51.759 And and I just want you to sort of think about, you know, something that um just like a problem that you have day to day, this doesn't have to be even work-related. 00:07:51.839 --> 00:08:07.600 Like just to give you an example, someone was telling me they just um they just separated and they have two kids that they take care of um every other week, which makes it really hard to figure out what food to put in the refrigerator because you're like buying all this food for your kids and then like it kind of goes bad. 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:13.120 And um, so he always have he always has like has to figure out like what could I make with what I have in the fridge. 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:24.480 Um and so one thing that we built together was like a um like a recipe generator that would be like sort of help him sort of like plot out, you know, like what to buy and like you know how to sort of like you know organize it. 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:30.319 Um but yeah, any anything that we could just like just right out of the gate, kind of like try to try to hack on together. 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:33.039 I mean, I hate packing. 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:33.600 Okay. 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:39.679 I hate packing, and I have to pack often, as you know, because I travel, both for work and for pleasure. 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.440 So like there's gotta be a way to make it less painful. 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:46.559 I don't know. 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:47.200 Okay. 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:48.879 It's kind of a boring, boring challenge. 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:49.840 Oh, that's a great one. 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:51.200 A real one for me. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:56.480 So Yeah, people can send me a list, but I just well, the where the trip, where am I going? 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:57.279 Is it a business trip? 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:58.080 Is it a personal trip? 00:08:58.159 --> 00:08:59.840 Is it you know, what's the climate like? 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:00.960 What's the weather forecast? 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:10.879 I'm always on, like, you know, snap doing like a screenshot of weather channel to say, like, all right, four days in DC looks like this, or you know, three days in LA or five days in Mexico, you know. 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:12.159 Yeah. 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:22.559 Um so I'm actually gonna use just like a just a regular LLM, this is Gemini, um, to help us come up with the idea first, because that's always like, you know, I think it helps actually do some ideation. 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.360 Um what what are some of like the what makes packing hard? 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:29.200 Like why do you hate packing so much? 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:38.000 I think it's I think it's kind of an executive function problem because I think it sort of like requires me to think ahead and plan ahead for multiple days. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.879 Um and that feels exhausting. 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.360 So I procrastinated to the last minute. 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:44.960 And then I'm stressed. 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:57.600 All right, let's um and so one of the things you're seeing me do here is you see this drop down. 00:09:57.759 --> 00:09:59.679 I don't know if you've used you, you said you use Gemini. 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:00.080 Yeah. 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.840 Um so a lot of people have like, you know, when they're tempted to like, yeah, you know, I've used Gemini and it's just it's okay. 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:07.600 I don't, I don't think it's that great. 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:12.639 Um, and I said, well, like it's like pull up your computer, let me see, show me some of your your prompts. 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.519 And I looked at all their prompts, and all their prompts had just this, this drop down they were doing fast. 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:24.320 So fast is the the weakest model for Gemini, also the fastest and the most cost effective. 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:25.360 That's the title. 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:31.039 Um but if you want to really see the the magic, um, you want to click on pro. 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:32.799 Yeah, I only use a M Pro. 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:38.480 Um oh so you're like let's you're already, you know, because it's tied to my work, it's tied to my suite. 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:39.840 It's tied to my suite. 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:41.360 Uh uh, so I just use it. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:47.039 I've only used it for work, and I use it for personal, so I'm always in my my admin suite, so I have more tools there. 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:48.720 Okay, so let's see. 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:51.840 A visual outras outfit Tetris app. 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:54.720 I loved it. 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.960 Um a backwards plan or timeline generator. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:10:59.840 Yeah. 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:01.039 This one I feel like. 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:02.639 When do you have to do your laundry? 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:03.919 Like when do you have to, you know? 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:07.120 The vibe check packing auditor. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.120 I mean, avoid stuff with like vision because like that can be a little bit more complicated.

00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:13.600 Okay. 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.919 Um I don't know about this one. 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:19.360 Sensory friendly event manager. 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:21.279 Not too worried about that. 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:25.039 Um, so let's let's go with this backwards planner. 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:31.360 The reason I'm not doing this with the Tetrasap is once you it'll just take it'll be long, it'll be it'd be cool, but I couldn't do it in like 10 minutes. 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:32.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:33.279 Um, okay. 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:36.240 Timeline generator seems like a good idea. 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:41.759 So I like the So I like the backwards planner timeline generator. 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:48.000 Can you generate a starter prompt for me to drop into AI Studio to get to an initial MVP? 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:48.799 Okay. 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:50.000 I know what MVP is. 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:55.200 Importantly, I don't want to use any API connections for this initial build. 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:59.200 I don't know what that means, but I'll take your word for it. 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:07.600 Um and by the way, we're we're talking about AI skills, and I kind of roll my eyes sometimes when people are like, oh, we're gonna do like a prompt engineering workshop. 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:17.919 Um I roll my eyes because I feel like the only thing you really need to teach somebody when it comes to prompt engineering is that you can just ask the AI for help with whatever it is. 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:22.320 So it's like, I want to do a I want to do a write a prompt to do XYZ. 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.080 You just say, How do I help me write the prompt to get to that end goal? 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:32.000 So it's so it's almost like if you if you are able to articulate the problem you want to help solve, that's almost all you need to know. 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:32.480 Right. 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.799 Um but there's a bit more to it, right? 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:43.440 This like this intuition of like some of these um, you know, some of the reasons I didn't go down some of these other paths is because I've I've like experimented enough that I've built that intuition. 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:45.440 Um, so we have our prompt. 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:48.320 Um where do you put that? 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:49.679 And then we're gonna go to AI Studio. 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:50.720 So this is AI Studio. 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:52.240 Okay, okay, okay, okay. 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:58.320 Um if you go you if you if you log in initially, you'll come to this place, it'll be home. 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.120 Um you want to go to build, okay, which is actually where we're gonna describe your idea. 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:22.000 Just call it a webinar. 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:23.440 So what's funny? 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.480 We didn't say anything about neurodivergence or ADHD, right? 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:30.480 And it's like time blindness, executive function, and I'm like, whoa yeah. 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.440 That's uh that's kind of it. 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:39.679 Okay, then I click build. 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:45.759 So with vibe coding, you'll usually have pretty much all the tools look roughly similar, by the way. 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.120 This is another vibe coding app. 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:47.440 Okay. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:49.919 Um, if you want to see an example of this. 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.600 Um and looks roughly the same, right? 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:59.200 You have your your chat bot, your your chat uh box here, um, and then a preview. 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:05.919 So it literally will like code and build the tool um or the application of the software or the website. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:08.720 Um, and you'll sort of see it in real time as it's developed. 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:14.320 And so, unlike if you've used like a website template, have you ever used like Squarespace or Wix or anything like that? 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:20.559 Um so in Squarespace, you'll go and like actually click and you can like change the text and like it'll be like a text editor. 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:25.519 Um, the way vibe coding works, it's almost like you have um your engineer sitting right next to you. 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:28.159 And so you wouldn't go in and change the title. 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:33.039 You might say, I don't want it to say vibe coding sandbox, I want it to say you know, vibe coding playground. 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.440 And you would literally just type that in there and then it would change it. 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:36.720 Okay, okay. 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.720 Um so we have so this is where the preview is gonna show up. 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.399 It's like literally doing the coding right now. 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:42.799 Okay. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.720 Um creating some metadata. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.159 Okay, here we go. 00:14:51.840 --> 00:15:01.200 Um do you have a trip coming up that we could uh I am going to South by Southwest EDU, which hopefully I'll see you. 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:06.399 Uh so I am leaving on March 8th, returning on March 12th. 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:28.240 And then you're there this is uh so we have like some like functionality so you can like check the box. 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:28.879 Okay. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:36.799 Um so this is now like truly the first the first output. 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.279 And what happens now is you start to like iterate on it. 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:50.240 You say, Oh, I'd like to be able to upload um a uh my flight information and have it like sort of like add that to the plan. 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:59.759 Um you might wanna you might say, oh, during the like pack, like for the like whenever there's more detail there for sure. 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:06.240 Yeah, I want to be able to add like a

to-do list underneath each of these sort of like uh like the sort of like the the cards on the timeline. 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:06.639 Yeah. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.480 Um and it'll just build that stuff for you. 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:08.960 Okay. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:14.320 Um so if we took more time, we could we could pretty much build the app for you. 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:14.720 Yeah. 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:16.879 Um and I can send you this afterward if you want to hack it. 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:18.080 Yes, yes, I'm curious. 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:18.480 Yes. 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:19.759 I want to play with it. 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:25.279 But the where's my meter study? 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.840 It is here. 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:35.519 Um so this is this is kind of what happened as I was kind of talking to you about. 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:55.039 So um what you're looking at here is um a benchmark that uh this organization uses to um figure out like how many times can LLMs complete uh coding tasks, um, and how long does it take to complete the task. 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:08.079 And basically what we're seeing is that the um uh like the time horizon is increasing. 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:10.480 Um it's getting longer. 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:52.799 So um the the one of the big limitations with with uh with using AI to code is that um are you familiar with context windows? 00:17:54.079 --> 00:18:06.640 So um let's say you were gonna write an essay uh or a an op-ed um about you know something about education, um, you could upload like background information to help it write. 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:12.319 Um over time, the um the length of how much background information you could upload has increased. 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:25.680 So it used to be that you could only upload like 400 words, and then that increased to like 800, and then um then you could upload like you know a six-page document, and and now you're able to upload like, you know, a whole book. 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:44.799 Um well with coding, the way that that has played out is you know, you could use AI to do tasks that would only take you, let's say, 10 minutes or 15 minutes, but the minute you get to like longer tasks, like something that would take you, let's say two hours, there's so much code that you're writing in that two-hour process, it's all it's creating all this context. 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.920 Um and the AI just fails. 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:57.279 Uh so um the higher on the chart, it means like the the the longer the task that AI can successfully complete. 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:58.240 Ah, okay. 00:18:58.400 --> 00:18:58.960 Okay, okay. 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:00.240 Thank you for clarifying. 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:05.759 Um that's impressive then, and maybe a little scary for some people. 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.839 Very, very, very much in terms of jobs. 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:12.079 So we're we're getting to you know pretty sophisticated tasks. 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:12.559 Yeah. 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:20.000 Um, you know, and and kind of my example of like, you know, cloud cowork being written in a week, it's like and almost entirely generated by AI. 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:32.240 Um it has gone from a helpful tool to support and augment engineers to a tool that can attack that can almost wholesale replace work that an engineer would do. 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.880 Um and again, this this happened middle of last year. 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:37.359 Yeah. 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.400 So it's a quantum leap, as they say. 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:51.200 It is, and and the combination of that with the user friendliness of being able to literally just like type in something you want and you have this, and you can now share it just like you would share like a Google Doc. 00:19:51.519 --> 00:20:00.960 Um, you can publish this, by the way, as like an application with its own URL, and you could share with friends or with your um with your child or anybody that might want to use it. 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:20.319 Um so I that's mostly I mostly just want to share because that's what's on my mind is we we don't like we we have to come to terms with this technology is moving way faster than the infrastructure of the educ of education. 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:41.039 And that I think that's the segue to sort of like the conversation I'd love to have with you, Jen, is you know, how how do we make sure that the education sector is actually thinking the long game and not just so focused on the the shiny objects, the tools of today, as we're thinking about like what does school transformation look like? 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.359 What does the you know building capacity look like? 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:54.480 Is it capacity to use tools like magic school, or is it something a little bit bigger that is reactive to whatever the tools might look like in one year, in two years? 00:20:54.720 --> 00:21:00.160 And then there's a whole separate thread that we may or may not have time for, which is what are the implications for the future of work, right? 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:05.759 If like these, if like you know, you can complete six hour tasks now with AI, what are people going to be doing? 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:07.200 Like, will they be doing anything? 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:08.799 Um, is a question people are asking. 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:26.079 But before we get into all of that, uh, Jen, could you give us sort of like a maybe like a short jot through through your journey and like sort of what brought you to this place where you are today where you're you've you've been sort of pulled into these like really interesting, you know, high-level conversations about sort of charting the future of education. 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:27.839 And go back as far as you want. 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:29.039 We can, you know. 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:31.200 Um thank you. 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:32.160 This is fun.

00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:34.559 I'm happy to see you, happy to be doing this. 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:40.000 And there's certainly a very long version of the story that I could tell that I'll try to tell a bit abridge version. 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:41.119 But I do think it's important. 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:42.400 The roots are important, right? 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.640 Like I grew up in the suburbs of Philly and my parents split when I was nine. 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:55.599 And my mom moved into Philadelphia and my dad lived in the suburbs, which is ironic because my mom was white living in a predominantly black neighborhood, and my dad was black living in a predominantly white neighborhood. 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.759 Um, but I saw education inequity firsthand because of the experience. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:01.839 Of existing in these two neighborhoods. 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.799 The opportunities available to young people in those two settings were night and day, completely different. 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.079 So I think that informed me, you know, through undergrad. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:18.880 I was the first someone to be a journalist, but I decided I ended up switching to focus on education based on some classes that I took late in college and then work experiences post. 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.160 I worked briefly in the private sector and then I worked for an AmeriCorps program. 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:23.759 Very eye-opening opportunity. 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.200 I was able to visit all the sites in Philly and New York and be in schools. 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.319 And I was like, okay, this is it. 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:29.839 You know, red savage inequalities. 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:30.640 I just okay. 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:34.240 This is what I want to do with my life is think about this, this work on this issue. 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:45.039 So I went to grad school and earned my PhD in education policy and administration at Stanford, ended up doing my dissertation on San Diego, uh, a high school reform initiative that was happening then. 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.400 And I ended up studying that. 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.160 So I moved to San Diego and worked on that for a couple of years, postdoc. 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:55.680 And then I ended up getting hired after doing a consulting project for high tech high, ended up getting hired there. 00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:00.240 And so that was definitely a cutting edge kind of place to end up, especially in 2004. 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:01.920 I think it had opened in 2000. 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:10.480 So, you know, explosive growth, numbers of schools, and also Yeah, just for our listeners who haven't heard of High Tech High, yeah, can you give me a high tech high? 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:18.000 To me, high tech high kind of call it like it's the education's perfect storm in some ways, in that the the thinking behind it, the founders, brilliant people who came together. 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:25.200 They had an architect on the design team, they had uh philanthropy uh who was excited to support this effort in a big way. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:31.680 They had uh land that was going from um that was sort of being decommissioned, whenever like a naval plate base. 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:37.920 So they got like built, you know, a dollar, one of those, like, you know, they got land and space for a great price in a great location. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:39.920 And so it was like all these things came together. 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:44.240 And the vision was to create project-based learning-focused schools, uh, public schools. 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:53.839 And so they started with one and then they added a middle school, and then they added another high school, and then they and now I think across the sort of San Diego region, I think there's uh 14 schools or something like that. 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:56.400 So continues to be an innovative place. 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:01.279 Uh, when I was there, they got approved to um certify their own teachers, which was the first charter approved to do that. 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:02.480 So that was part of my job. 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:08.720 And they had a large Gates Foundation grant to try to replicate back when we thought you could replicate a perfect storm. 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:10.799 We have gotten a little smarter since then. 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:17.039 Uh, but there were schools that were started in that high tech high network that are still going strong, and many have closed uh from that initial network. 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:22.720 You know, it would actually be interesting to study the sort of trajectory of that whole uh network of schools that we helped to start. 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:27.279 And then the founder of High Tech High, Larry Rosenstock, wanted to start a grad school. 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:29.599 He just was like, let's I want that.edu. 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:31.119 Let's start grad school. 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:38.400 And so we uh kind of I had to figure out how do you start a graduate school in a K-12 charter context in California? 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:39.359 And we did. 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:41.680 And that that grad school is still going very strong. 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:44.960 But San Diego was not sort of for me uh ultimately. 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:54.640 So I moved to Chicago and worked at Chicago Public Schools and then kind of moved around as many of us did, sort of after Arnie Duncan left Chicago and went to DC to join the first Obama administration. 00:24:54.799 --> 00:25:05.680 Um, you know, things kind of got unsettled in the Chicago context, but ended up leading a nonprofit and then going to the Gates Foundation, uh, where I was for six years on the Networks for School Improvement Strategy. 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:09.119 So I ran the community of practice, this national community of practice. 00:25:09.200 -->

00:25:12.240 There was about, I don't know, 21 grantee organizations in there. 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:26.160 And so a real focus on secondary schools, um, using continuous improvement, moving particular outcomes that were sort of, you know, codified in the strategy, uh, working with teams that were working on these things, doing capacity building, convening, stuff like that. 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:27.759 And so then my strategy was ending. 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:28.799 So my role was ending. 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:30.079 So the question was, what's next? 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:31.440 This is 2024. 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:39.519 And I decided to start my own consulting practice, you know, kind of I've been doing adult learning work and education, you know, for 20 plus years. 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:47.519 So I thought, you know, and I've now seen it from philanthropy, I've seen it from a district perspective, I've seen it from a nonprofit charter, been an ED of a nonprofit, I've been an employee of a nonprofit. 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:53.839 So I was like, I think I have lots of a good almost 360 perspective on some of these things, you know, I think I can be helpful. 00:25:53.920 --> 00:26:00.480 Um, so I started my consulting practice, which is called Steward Education Advisors in uh September of 2024. 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:09.200 And then I met you uh at one a convening that I was helping to plan uh for the Education Fund or Strategy Group in partnership with Ed Council and the rest of history. 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:10.000 I'm here. 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:11.039 And here you are. 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:11.519 Yes. 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.599 Yeah, and and yeah, education EFSG Education Fund and Strategy Group. 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:23.359 I mean, this is I mean, these are some of the most sort of uh sort of pivotal philanthropies in the education space coming together. 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:30.559 I mean, I remember you and I met, this was months and months before at Grandmakers for Education, actually, when you had mentioned. 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:43.119 Um, and so there was a lot of planning that went into this, and it was it was reflected by the way, hold on, I have a cat who is um wanting to get out of interaction. 00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:43.599 Yes. 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:52.400 Um I mean I'm curious, like where where are folks' minds right now? 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:54.799 Like, is is it is it excitement? 00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:01.039 Is it like are are folks just sort of like still feeling a sense of like you know confusion or anxiety? 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.200 Or do the do people is there a plan? 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:10.960 I mean, I just you know it's been the three years on since you know Chat GPT and language models kind of were thrust upon us, like truly just from your vantage point. 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.359 Um, about AI? 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:14.799 About AI, yeah. 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:15.839 Of course, of course,

unfortunately. 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:22.079 From my perspective in general in the world right now, uh, but with AI specifically. 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:24.640 You know, oh boy, that's a good question. 00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:26.640 I think that there is definitely anxiety. 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:35.279 I think with any um any technology, anything that moves really fast uh makes people anxious because they're like, I don't know what this is, I don't have control over it. 00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:36.799 There's a lot of unknown there. 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:44.400 I think that when you're working with smart people, you know, then I these thinking about these people in philanthropy, they want to be ahead of the curve. 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:48.559 And there's no way to be ahead of this curve because the curve keeps shifting. 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:57.680 And so I think that sort of there's like there's almost like a humility that you have to be like, okay, I'm not gonna be the person who knows the most about this, but can I know enough to at least be helpful? 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:04.240 And so I think that there is, I and I think probably like there's almost like an adoption curve of people, right? 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:07.759 Like there's some folks who are like, all right, let's do this, let's get on it. 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.839 There's people who are like, ooh, let's wait and see. 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:15.279 You know, there's laggards, there's so I think there is definitely, I don't think there's certainly not one reaction. 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:19.759 Um, I do think that there's a pretty universal awareness that this is a thing we need to pay attention to. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:23.519 But I think there's a lot of trying to learn and figure it out and see what's happening. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:28.240 I I don't feel like folks, my experience is I don't feel like folks feel like they have a good handle on it. 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:34.559 And so, and it's like a second step, because it's like, especially in education, if you're thinking about, you know, what are folks doing, what do they need help? 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:39.200 First, you have to kind of understand the lay of the land if you're gonna think about where you might step in and support it. 00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:44.799 And so I think that things are still sort of um, they haven't quite um gelled. 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.400 Um it's a tricky time. 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.839 I think it's a tricky time. 00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:56.160 And because that is laid on top of a world that feels like it's in crisis and is actually in many ways, right? 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:03.279 And in ways that have huge impacts on education, both structurally and students' lives and communities specifically. 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:12.079 You know, so like I think if this were coming at a time that there wasn't all this other stuff, maybe people would be able to attend to it in a more disciplined

way. 00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:17.839 But it's like one thing amongst lots of things that feel very urgent right now. 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:23.039 So I think that is part of what's sort of steining having a more uh organized response to it. 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:29.680 Yeah, I mean, I mean, education is always hard because there's like it, there's always crises. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:53.039 I mean, even if it's just like, you know, a school bus strike or, you know, a like, you know, my mom taught in Akron Public Schools and just and she does she was like an assistant principal for a while and like dealt with like discipline and just like you know, this the stuff that she had to deal with on a day-to-day basis, setting aside like the macro challenges, like even the day-to-day in good times is very complicated and it's hard to be focused. 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:56.480 And then you layering in literal, like, you know, it's like budget cuts. 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:08.960 And then um, I actually just presented at a school on uh last Monday, and there was like the the national walkout on the previous Friday in protest of what ICE was doing in Minnesota. 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:12.319 And you know, it's like I was actually going there to present. 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:17.599 It was like uh the the the teachers, the staff were all together, and so it was like a staff, you know, learning opportunity. 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:38.240 And um, like the first 20 minutes were you know, folks kind of like just debriefing on all of the stuff that happened around that and like the way that the um, you know, just like how the teachers are feeling and you know, like what it meant for those teachers who didn't want guys and it was just like just as a way to demonstrate, you know, he were here to learn together. 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:41.200 Um, but that was a conversation that had to happen, right? 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:48.240 It's like it's like you can't, as a school leader, you can't just say, well, this AI thing is really important, so we're gonna just ignore the other stuff. 00:30:48.319 --> 00:31:06.400 And funders, I'm sure, are getting a lot of emergency appeals right now, whether it's organizations that are, you know, having to mobilize, you know, for what all the various, you know, needs that are that the moment is requiring from activists, from uh nonprofit groups, but then also just like because of budget cuts. 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:07.200 Yes, exactly. 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:12.400 You know, it's like there are most funders that I've talked to are not in a growth mindset right now. 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:21.759 Like they're not thinking about how do we expand, they're thinking about how do we keep folks' lights on and you know, and they're getting hit by new tax laws that are changing their ability to give. 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:22.720 Yeah, it's very hard. 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:31.200 Yeah, and yeah, substance where we managed to get, I think it was like what 40 or 50 funders to take two and a half days together and create that shared space. 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:41.920 And it's interesting, you you you I one of the things you said struck me, it's like it people with education are not like it it they don't have the move fast and break things mentality. 00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:43.039 No, which I think is good. 00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:45.279 I I I think I would rather that we're working with children. 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:45.599 Yeah. 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:47.200 We don't want to break children. 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:49.119 Right. 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.160 So yeah, I don't know, I mean, I don't know about you. 00:31:52.240 --> 00:32:01.359 I think if I had to choose between the the space moving too fast or too slow, I would choose too slow, even though there's there's risks with that as well. 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:03.119 Because yeah, we're dealing with kids. 00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:06.480 We don't really want to experiment on kids experiment on kids entirely. 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:06.960 Right. 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:18.960 And then you still have the adoption curve there, because obviously we have schools, districts, places that are really seizing this moment, you know, like we had folks from Gwinnett County, like they're doing really interesting forward-thinking stuff about how to integrate this in. 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:23.599 We got micro schools, you know, I mean there's lots of, you know, so there's there's again the curve. 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:30.559 And then there's a but I think that yes, the bulk of the curve is still on the slower adoption end of things for sure. 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:39.039 I mean, this feels like a crazy moment, and it probably is maybe the fastest technology has ever changed in the history of humankind. 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:45.119 I mean, I'm trying to think of maybe if it was there ever like a faster takeoff, and I can't quite think of anything. 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:53.839 Maybe like the nuclear bomb in terms of how quickly that changed geopolitics, but you know, all the other industrial revolutions played out over like, you know, two to five decades. 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:57.279 Not how would you compare it to the internet, the advent of the internet? 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:02.319 Well, I mean, think about I mean, I remember when my parents had dial-up. 00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:03.039 Yeah. 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:07.680 And I remember when we had broadband, and that was like five years later. 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:08.240 Yeah, yeah. 00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:09.839 And then I remember when I got my first smartphone. 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:10.640 It's a lot slower. 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:12.240 The progression was a lot slower. 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:16.799 It wasn't six months from one, you know, release to the next that changes everything or whatever. 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.240 Yeah, it was it was much slower. 00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:18.960

That makes sense to me. 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:19.599 Yes, that's right. 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:23.839 But still, I mean, like, I think that's like part of, you know, if you're I'm a student of history. 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:31.279 I mean, and as you look at sort of like as we've had more, like, you know, we've had a couple industrial revolutions, you know, under our belt. 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.519 This really does feel like an industrial revolution. 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:37.519 Um, the time scales do get compressed each time. 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:42.799 Um, because you're in in each case, you're building on top of, you know, everything that came before. 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:55.279 So, you know, AI already had the internet, and so Chat GBT was able to hit, I think, like 100 million users in like an hour or something, um, because everybody's already connected and sharing it on TikTok and reels or whatever. 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:55.680 Yep. 00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:04.799 But I the reason I bring that up is because this is not the first time that education has had to make sense of new technologies and figure out how do we sort of transform. 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.440 Um, and I'm curious if like, did it feel like this? 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:17.119 Like, was there the same kind of like scramble and mix of excitement and anxiety about getting computers into schools or getting internet into schools? 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:17.679 Yeah. 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:21.039 I don't, I think it's I think it feels pretty different. 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:25.920 You know, I remember the first Apple, you know, computers coming in when I was in elementary school. 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.280 That's you know, where I am, Gen X. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:32.000 I think that why this feels different to me, especially thinking about like ed tech. 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:35.039 Like ed tech was sort of about how to deliver content better. 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:41.920 You know, I mean it was sort of not fundamentally changing the the nature of things, you know, maybe some of the the how, but not as much the what. 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:45.519 I think that this is changing so many things. 00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:48.159 It can change how you teach your kids. 00:34:48.400 --> 00:35:03.599 It can change how your kids respond and and produce content, it can change in the kinds of jobs that are available to kids, it can change what kinds of information and resources are available to kids outside of school or in school. 00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:09.039 Like it's changing so many facets of life at the same time. 00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:12.719 Whereas I think those other pieces were much more like circumscribed. 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:15.119 And I was like, this is gonna change how you teach math. 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.199 You know, that's still a thing, and that's still, you know, not inconsequential. 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:28.000 But this thing has so many dimensions to

it and so many ways it can change our lives that I feel like it's just it feels so much bigger. 00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:29.440 Yeah. 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:39.920 You mentioned Quinn County, you like there's there's actually like a really long list of schools that are, you know, forward thinkers that are actually doing like walking the walk. 00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:43.199 And they may not have all the answers, but they're like, hey, we have to try something. 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.320 In part because the kids are sort of forcing them to, right? 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:50.639 Because like at the end of the day, the kids are using this, using this stuff, you know, with or without you. 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:56.800 And even if you block it and ban it and have all the academic integrity policies in in school, they can just go home. 00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.440 And so that's become a trigger to schools that are like, you know, they've been pushed over the ledge. 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:04.000 And and there are some like amazing stories. 00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:06.320 And I I it's but it's not enough, right? 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:15.679 Like it's it's it's there's a long list, but relative to the you know, tens of thousands of school districts across the country, um, it's still a really, really small segment of them. 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:16.079 Yeah. 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:24.800 What do you see as like the most important conditions that need to be in place for a school to go from being sort of on the back foot to the front foot? 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:30.800 I think that uh I think leadership is huge. 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:37.039 I think how who the leaders are, what the leaders sort of know, their sort of like growth mindset and openness. 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:48.559 And then the way they sort of think about introducing, you know, new tools or or new approaches to their staff, I feel like that is sort of the crux of a lot of change. 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:55.199 You will have some bottom-up places where you'll have teachers, teacher leaders who embrace things and bring them to their colleagues or bring them to leadership. 00:36:55.280 --> 00:37:03.519 So it's not always a top-down thing, but I think the role of the leader, if you actually want something to diffuse across more than one classroom, I think leadership is really important. 00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:17.679 And when I think about, even when I think about my career, which a lot of it has been about diffusing innovation, you know, it may not seem obvious, you look at my resume, but I mean, working at High Tech High was about how do we get more schools to use project-based learning. 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:24.800 You know, even when I was at Academy for Open School Leadership, how do we get more schools to be thoughtful about, you know, really turning around the lowest performing schools? 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:33.039 You know, some of what we did was probably, I would feel differently about it now in the rear view, but that was an urgent sort of push and coming from the feds. 00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:42.800 And so I feel like what I've observed in an effort to try to disseminate innovation is that resources are only useful to people when they're useful to them. 00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:45.360 It's very simple sounding right. 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:51.039 So you can have all the resources in the world, but if I don't see it's gotta be user-centered at some level, right? 00:37:51.119 --> 00:38:01.599 If I don't see how this thing is gonna help me do my job better, help my kids learn better, help me prepare my kids for the future better, then I'm gonna probably not use it because we still, you can still close the door in a classroom. 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:10.159 And so I think that I think, and I even see this just in the general world, you know, like a lot of AI stuff is being pitched or like being put on my phone. 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:12.000 And I'm like, I don't want this. 00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:13.280 How do I turn this off? 00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.360 Like, I don't want it's not helpful to me. 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.599 It's not because I don't like AI or don't want it. 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.440 It's just I don't want that right now. 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:26.719 I don't, that doesn't help me use this app that is so like if we keep foisting it on people, then I think you're gonna not see the kind of uptake you want. 00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:40.480 I think you have to work with people to figure out what is the problem you're trying to solve, or how can we use these tools to help you do your job better or to free up your time to do the things that that are only being able to be done by a human, right? 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:45.440 Like I remember, I can't remember, it was someone I think at the ESSG meeting that shared some data. 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:52.239 I think it might have been useful about like teachers using a tool to do the first pass review of these essays and give the kids feedback. 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:59.920 And then the kids turn in the revision and then the teacher read the final versions or whatever, you know, and how the students' grades went up. 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:08.800 Now, I don't know all the details of how that happened, but I'm just like, how can we think about the things that that's that so to me, that is meeting a teacher's need, right? 00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:14.639 Like you can do the first pass on essay and kind of get rid of like the easy like grammatical mistake, grammatical mistake, like stuff like that. 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:15.119 Do that. 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.079 I don't need to do that, right? 00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:17.679 You can do a computer do that. 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:24.639 Get the kid to improve it, then let me get in there and give that human level of feedback that that probably a computer can't provide. 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:26.079 A computer doesn't know you as a

kid. 00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:27.679 They don't know your learner, whatever. 00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:58.719 So I think that how do we make those kinds of cases to people that like it can make maybe more efficient, make let you use your time and way it just separating out those sort of uniquely human things that humans need to do, and then things that maybe could be done using another modality and present that to teachers in a way that feels helpful, that doesn't feel you're trying to take my job away, you're trying to de-skill me, you're trying, you know, like I just I think there's you have to kind of sell it and you have to sell it in a way that feels user-centered. 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.519 And I feel like uh kind of a lot of what I've seen doesn't feel that way to me. 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:08.719 And I think that, you know, and I do think there is a diffusion of innovation even within schools. 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:11.599 Like you can have you have your early adopters. 00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:19.039 So, like, okay, go to where it's warm, have those people pilot some stuff, and then the kids start talking about this cool thing they're doing in so-and-so's classroom. 00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:20.800 And that teacher's like, wait, what are they doing? 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:21.599 I want to do that too. 00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.480 I want kids talking about my class, like, you know, like it. 00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:31.360 So I think it's sort of like, you know, some people say, like a wedge and spread, you know, like you got to get in there and then you gotta spread it. 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:46.400 But just doing it completely top down or not making the direct connection to how is this gonna make my life better, my kids' life better, the world better, whatever it is, you know, if without that um rationale behind it, I think it's it's gonna continue to be a hard sell. 00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:56.079 We know that, you know, people don't have time, they don't have the resources, you know, like we know that we're going into a challenged environment, particularly in public schools that serve students with the highest needs. 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:12.480 So how do you take this environment that already is stretched very thin and allow people uh sort of uh incentivize people to want to try something different when they feel like they have no bandwidth, not even enough bandwidth to do what they need to do day to day? 00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:19.679 I mean, that's probably not you know the most innovative thinking, but that's just that's where I think we are, is that we we're not selling it well. 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:40.559 Well, yeah, and I think, you know, the the startup founders would say, well, we are we are making the case and they're doing all this marketing, and no doubt there's probably some AI involved in sending out all the emails and because the teachers I talk to are it's it's not that people aren't trying to show them how AI could help them.

00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:48.960 It's like they're being bombarded with hundreds, maybe thousands of um, you know, companies trying to convince them that this is going to be helpful. 00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:50.960 But I think what you're saying is really important. 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:57.039 It's it's the like who is communicating that is very uh like it is pivotal, right? 00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:04.320 Like if this is coming from another teacher, the level of trust there is it's it's it's not even like comparable, right? 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.760 Compared to like because teachers get pitched up all the time, whether it's AI or otherwise. 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:08.079 Yeah. 00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:08.960 Um 100%. 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:11.760 And teachers also get told to use a bunch of stuff. 00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:26.960 Uh that is actually like the practice of teaching is essentially the practice of sort of like operating within an extremely rigid and frustrating bureaucracy, which has gone through, you know, with no child left behind, this sort of obsession with measurement at, you know, at the expense of well, project-based learning, among other things. 00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:34.320 And so it's not so simple as, well, you just need an administrator who is creating an AI initiative and making sure that teachers are all using AI. 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:42.880 Because a savvy administrator, and certainly the savvy ones we talk to, will say, Well, I could do this, but I know that's actually not the best path to success. 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:46.320 This needs to be at least partially homegrown. 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.760 And like that wedge and spread is interesting, like that teacher-to-teacher. 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:52.000 Yeah, or it could be a coach, you know. 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.199 I mean, like an instructional weekly, like a yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:57.039 We see improvement, literacy improvement. 00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:02.159 You know, if you, you know, unpack what's happening in like Mississippi, there's a lot of coaching. 00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:09.840 So what would what could be the role of kind of an innovation coach or an AI, someone who sits with you almost like a therapist, safety, what's going on? 00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:10.880 What do you need help with? 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:14.320 What's not working, you know, and sort of then says, here's some things that you might try. 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:15.280 I can help you. 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:16.079 Let's do this. 00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:18.880 And then I think then you could see some uptake, right? 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:31.760 If there, again, it's a human, you know, this, I think for this whole thing to work, especially in education, there has to be a human interface, you know, between these major points, like between teacher and student, maybe between, you know, product and teacher. 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:41.599 There's a human interface, you know, like between principal and teacher, you know, I just think that there has to be, I think there's a humanization aspect to it or that is being perhaps missed. 00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:47.119 And that all sounds sounds well and good, but the the the the well, the challenge in education is just the scale, right? 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:49.760 So you have what, fifty million kids? 00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:53.280 Four million teachers, uh I think forty thousand districts. 00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:59.280 I I used to have that this number down I uh many, many thousands of districts, and it's all decentralized, so you can't just go top down. 00:43:59.599 --> 00:43:59.760 Yes. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:01.280 Or better and worse, frankly. 00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:07.119 And so it is easy, it's easy to go to to look at one school and say, okay, like we could sort of map out how this could play. 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:14.800 But then if you're trying to reach, you know, the the really large, you know, audience of communities that are going to need this support, it feels a bit intractable. 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:19.599 And and one of the pieces of your work at Gates, which is really focused on community practice models. 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:28.480 And one of our like sort of strategies and theories of change, which is, you know, going rather than doing breadth, like actually going really deep with like subsets of teachers. 00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:30.480 We have like our Trailblazer Fellowship. 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:56.400 But what we found is that it's not just about that one teacher changing her practices, it's that that teacher is now connecting into a community of other teachers, and then they are bringing other peers along and they are supporting their administration and like making the case because now they're an exemplar that the principal wants to celebrate and it becomes less about how do we get AI into our school and how do we support more teachers to do what you know Stephanie is doing. 00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:01.280 And, you know, our Trailblazer cohorts are about 25 and they run for 10 weeks. 00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:04.719 So there's no way that we're going to trailblaze our way to every teacher. 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:14.880 Um our big bet is that you're not just teaching that teacher, you're building that alumni network and you're building these sort of models and case studies. 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:19.840 But I'm curious, like, what are the other sort of secrets to the success of a community of practice model? 00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:24.239 And this could be you your advice to us, or just more sort of more broadly for like what the space needs. 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:26.559 Well, I mean, there's I think there's two pieces. 00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:31.199 A community of practice is the spaces where you bring the people together, right? 00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:33.119 To learn, to share all of that. 00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:35.360 But it's it's net you have to

have a network. 00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:36.639 Right. 00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:38.800 I mean, the network piece is really important. 00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:52.639 So in this case, then I would say I love the idea of having like teacher leaders within schools who can try to model and share and sort of demystify these the technologies within their building. 00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:58.559 But then you need to network the schools together and have the teachers from across the schools talk to each other. 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:02.079 And then maybe you even have something above that, right? 00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:06.639 So I think your question about sort of how do we the scale question. 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:13.199 I think in my dissertation research, even though we weren't talking about AI, but we were talking about improvement, school districts. 00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:16.239 School districts are a very important unit of change. 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:23.119 And I think, you know, like I know Gwynette is an example that's often cited, and I hope that there are others, and I'll be happy to cite the others once I learn about them. 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:43.039 But I think that if you have ownership at that district level and then you have activities like this happening at the schools, and then you're bringing them together to amplify it, that is a big unit of change that then becomes an example that you and I have both heard of, that other people are going to visit and learn from and get their documents and see how they're, you know, thinking about it and they're attracting funding. 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:47.519 And it, you know, like so I think the district is an important unit of change. 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:49.199 Of course, some districts are one school, right? 00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:52.159 Like so districts are, you know, range hugely in size. 00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:59.119 But if you're trying to get at numbers, and if you're trying to get at numbers of kids further from opportunity, then your urban districts are a good place to start. 00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:05.599 You also obviously have rural districts as well with a lot of underserved young people, but it's a just a different kind of a challenge. 00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:10.159 Uh and I know that you guys have done some work in rural and indigenous communities, so you know a little bit about that challenge. 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:24.239 And then I think what's happening now with the sort of devolution of, I mean, states have always held the sort of constitutional authority for education, but the interplay between states and the federal government in our current moment is interesting. 00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:26.559 And I think that states are going to have a lot more. 00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:30.159 I mean, it's tricky because we know in terms of policy, there's some barriers. 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:36.239 But in terms of practice, I think states are going to have a lot more ability to say, hey, this

is what we are doing. 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.000 This is how we're taking on this challenge. 00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:40.480 And that could set the stage for what the districts do. 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:46.400 So I think that, you know, to tackle the problem of change, I would say it's definitely not a school by school. 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:48.559 We cannot solve anything school by school, not happening. 00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:56.639 So I believe school districts, because if there's a reinforcing infrastructure between what's happening in the school and what the district expects, then you're going to see more traction. 00:47:56.719 --> 00:48:10.480 And then the moment we're in, as as challenging as it is in so many ways, I think presents an opportunity for states to be innovative and to put a stake in the ground around some of these issues in a way that could also stimulate philanthropic funding. 00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:12.159 It could stimulate, you know, local policy. 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:15.360 But to sort of to your specific question, the community is important. 00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:16.639 I need to feel like I'm not alone. 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:17.679 I'm not the only one doing this. 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:28.559 I need to know if I run into this problem, either someone I can ask that probably has used the same app or the same program that might be able to say how they fixed that problem or how they dealt with this privacy issue, or are you getting weird answers or whatever? 00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:32.159 Like that is really important for the social aspect of learning. 00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:42.000 And even in the research on the work that we did at Gates, it's not out yet, but it's going to suggest that the networking of schools together was actually a driver of change. 00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:44.159 And I think that's going to be very important. 00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.000 And I think that's very relevant here. 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:55.039 Yeah, this um this idea of networking schools together, it it's it's exciting to me because it's not that we have to build all these networks. 00:48:55.280 --> 00:49:00.559 Like there are a lot, like there's so many, there's so much connectivity between schools. 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:08.960 And like our rural work being the example of like, you know, how do you reach, you know, all these like tiny, like sometimes 300 student districts? 00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:14.719 And well, there are small and rural school associations in not every state, but I think most states. 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:35.440 There are myriad nonprofits that serve small and rural schools, whether that's state nonprofits or national nonprofits or regional nonprofits, who in some cases have spent decades building that network and they know exactly who the nodes are and who the who would you want to have in the room if you really wanted to get something that's gonna get some uh, you know, take some momentum out of a meeting. 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:45.039 Um, so I think part of our obsession is like, how do we build on top of all of that work that's been done as opposed to try to create something new? 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:47.360 Um what about like within a school? 00:49:47.440 --> 00:50:08.320 Because like one of the other things that you've you've done in your career is you've actually like, I mean, you talked about your work at like high tech high, but the the the like the change management that happens within a school, like you know, the we see a lot of instances where there's lots of like like leaders at a school who are like, we want to use more AI or do AI stuff, or you know, there's lots of AI initiatives out there. 00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:16.320 But you know, much of the time when we talk to folks, you know, why like what you know, why is this sort of slowed down, or like, you know, what are your biggest blockers? 00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:28.159 And it's they're just not getting the buy-in, you know, from teachers, or they're or the teachers are worried or anxious, or like to your point, they're they hear their administration talking about, you know, you should use more AI to help you save time. 00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:35.440 And what they're hearing is we are thinking about AI as a way for us to be able to invest less in our teacher workforce. 00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:41.280 And so they're thinking, is my job now at risk once the AI is able to, you know, replace enough of my time? 00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:41.760 Yes. 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.480 Even if the administration is absolutely not thinking that, right? 00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:48.079 It's just like there's there's just a lot of anxieties that they have to work through. 00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:56.159 Do you feel like the change management is is that is that getting enough attention in terms of like the problem statement about AI? 00:50:56.320 --> 00:51:12.320 Because I I think I guess that this question is coming from a place where I feel like we spend so much time talking about the capabilities and the tools and the challenges with respect to how do we make sure that we have the policies in place so that teachers can safely deploy these tools to do X. 00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:16.880 And there's this other question of like, how do you create the condition for like a culture of innovation, right? 00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:33.920 Which is more amorphous and less, you know, it's it's it's not a it's not necessarily like one outcome that you can point to, but it feels feels pretty important if we're talking about like orienting schools not just for what we have now, but for, you know, whatever the world would look like in two years, let alone like five. 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.639 I mean, change management is about changing behaviors, right? 00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:42.719 And behavior change is a result of learning. 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:50.639 So if you want to manage this change, then the people that you want to

change their behavior need to learn. 00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:56.559 Right now, how much time do teachers have to actually learn? 00:51:57.199 --> 00:51:57.519 Right? 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:05.280 Like the US has one of the lowest investments in teacher time that is not non-instructional time. 00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.000 You know, they get like maybe one period off to eat. 00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:08.719 You know what I mean? 00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:16.480 Like, you know, they might have some time for meeting, whatever, you know, maybe like my school, I know they're closed on next Tuesday because it's teacher PD day, but that's one day a quarter. 00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:17.199 You know what I mean? 00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:23.119 Like, so if we want to change to see that change in behavior, we have to let people learn. 00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:27.440 And learning is social and learning takes time, and learning takes trial and error. 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:33.280 And learning goes better if you have someone helping you learn, whether it's a coach or a peer or a principal or whoever. 00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:39.039 So I think the question is, are the structures in place to bring about the kinds of change that we want to see? 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:42.159 Is the entity designed to, does it have the slack? 00:52:42.239 --> 00:52:48.320 Does it have the space and time and expertise that's needed for people to learn in order to change their behavior? 00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:50.159 Is there any space for trial and error? 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:53.039 Like, what if I learn this thing and I kind of screw it up the first time? 00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:54.400 Like, what's gonna happen to me? 00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:55.360 Am I gonna get in trouble? 00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:56.480 Am I gonna mess up my kids? 00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:57.760 Are they gonna mess up their grades? 00:52:57.920 --> 00:52:59.519 Like, what are the consequences of it? 00:52:59.679 --> 00:52:59.760 Right. 00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:08.000 Like, so I think that there's a structural problem in the way our schools are set up that makes learning really hard. 00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:11.440 And if we don't learn, we're not gonna change. 00:53:11.679 --> 00:53:16.880 And especially when it comes to using something that is so new, people need practice with it. 00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:19.360 They need reps, they need to figure out. 00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:27.440 I mean, it was, I mean, it's it's a different example, but even with project-based learning and high tech high, we are asking people to teach in a way they've never been taught. 00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:32.239 And so we had to get them to understand and have some experiences of learning through projects. 00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:33.679 So they were like, oh, this is really cool. 00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:34.320 Okay, cool. 00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:41.360 You know, and when you ask people, you know, a lot of times when they think back to your most impactful education experience in your whole life, it's almost always a project. 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:42.159 Right. 00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:47.920 So, like, how do we expose people like to they use it in your own life? 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:53.920 You, you know, like just get them familiar and comfortable with the idea of how these things can actually be helpful. 00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:58.800 And it's not about taking away your job or your husband's job, or it's not making it so you don't have to cook dinner anymore. 00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:02.719 It's just trying to make it easier for you to cook dinner and know what to cook and have what you need in the kitchen. 00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:04.239 Like that could help me, right? 00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:13.679 So it people need to have, I think, the experiences that sort of like desensitize them around the fear of it to then think, oh, now I see how this can be helpful. 00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:14.559 Now I see. 00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:20.320 And sometimes having a peer who is successfully using it can be a great way to see. 00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:25.199 You're doing it with my kids in our school with our constraints, and you're doing these cool things. 00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:26.000 I want to try it. 00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:30.400 So I just I think the change management problem is really a learning problem. 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:39.199 And we need to think about how to create opportunities for learning in a very constrained environment that is not really set up for adult learning very effectively. 00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:43.920 Yeah, it's funny because this is like you start to get to how interconnected all of this is. 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:44.239 Yes. 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:51.039 With with I think learning at the center, because it's, you know, one of the one of the things you mentioned is it's really hard to get, you know, there's only like one teacher PD day per quarter. 00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:51.280 Right. 00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:55.920 And we we did work with Prince George's County and we we like we had funding for three years. 00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:59.840 We had like, you know, buying from the superintendent and like all these folks on leadership. 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:06.400 We did massive training with like you know, hundreds of teachers over the summer, and they were meeting with their team to schedule the next training. 00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:08.960 We were like, oh, we were thinking maybe it's like August or you know, September. 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:11.119 And they were like, oh, we were thinking March. 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:12.159 We're like March. 00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:13.199 Like that's no, no. 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:16.239 We were like, we were like, what we were thinking maybe every other month, if not every month. 00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:26.639 And they were like, no, like we yes, we have these training days, but we have a teacher shortage, which means we have a substitute teacher shortage, which means

we have fewer in-service days that we can take. 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:30.559 And by the way, we have all this compliance of this compulsory training that has to get in. 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:34.960 And so we were fighting initially for like one hour out of that training. 00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:41.920 And it led us to this realization that, you know, that working within just sort of the confines of that system wouldn't be enough. 00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:48.800 And we had to sort of think about how do we push towards sort of that, towards that culture of innovation and the and and those learning opportunities. 00:55:48.960 --> 00:56:01.920 And you're only going to convince the administrators by, you know, getting some teachers who were who were making the case for the learning themselves, as opposed to, you know, us as outsiders coming in and saying this would be helpful, which is what worked. 00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.800 And we've trained like, I think, over 3,000 teachers now in PGCPS. 00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:12.000 I don't know if you you've ever met Jeff Riley, who was the chancellor, formerly the chancellor of the Massachusetts Department of Education. 00:56:12.559 --> 00:56:14.239 And we went down the rabbit hole. 00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:15.440 We were talking about the MISPAP. 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:17.280 Are you familiar with the MISPA Maryland? 00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:23.039 Uh it was like the most famous standardized test because it was like the one standardized test that students actually looked forward to taking. 00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:23.679 Interesting. 00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:27.760 Because it involved all these group projects and it was uh had a lot of project-based learning. 00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:31.280 It was, it was measuring critical thinking and like collaboration skills. 00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:39.599 And it ran like, I think, from like the mid 90s to 2002, and it was a casualty of No Child Left Behind because it didn't provide student level data. 00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:41.280 It only provided at the school level. 00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:44.719 And it was deemed like, well, that's just not good enough data for us to use. 00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:48.880 And and so that was just as a side, I just think that was like fascinating. 00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:56.239 It's not that we can't measure critical thinking or we can't measure, you know, like project-based learning or like the the durable skills that come from project-based learning. 00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:00.639 It's just it requires like a bit of a change in sort of like aperture. 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:08.719 Um, but the other thing he said is that because you were talking about the fact that, well, I think only 18% of teachers today would recommend the profession to someone else. 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:12.000 So down from like that low 60s, yeah, not too long ago. 00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:12.480 Yeah. 00:57:12.639 --> 00:57:21.039 And one thing that Jeff said is, well, you know, part of like when I was a teacher, one of the best things of being a teacher was, you know, the fact that we got to learn together. 00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:25.039 And we're there was so much more of an emphasis on, you know, shared learning. 00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:30.159 And like professional development wasn't this sort of boring like compliance exercise. 00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:33.280 It was like truly like it was a chance for us to advance our profession. 00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:35.760 And so it it's sort of interesting. 00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:42.880 Like, if we can nail the like like getting learning right ultimately is going to make teaching more fun, yeah. 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:47.039 If it's truly learning and not just like, here's a tool that we want you to use. 00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:57.840 And creating a the ability, like creating the infrastructure to learn is an answer to the question of, well, what happens if the technology looks completely different in two years? 00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:03.360 Because then you lean back on your learning infrastructure that you've built as opposed to to update. 00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:04.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:05.360 Exactly. 00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:14.639 I mean, I like that some of the work that's happening, like with the let's say you're your district, you know, you've a list of math or whatever, you know, you have a curriculum that you write. 00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:16.159 How do we help you use this better? 00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:17.840 How do we help you understand this? 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:20.000 How do we help you make it make sense to your students? 00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:22.400 How do we help you create, you know, activity, whatever? 00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:27.280 Like, I think that, yeah, like when teachers can see that, this is something I kind of have to do. 00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:31.920 So, how do you how do we make it better and give me space to learn that and learn that with other educators? 00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:36.400 Like that kind of approach, I feel like that that's the type of thing that can have some traction. 00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:37.760 It's gonna take some resources. 00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:53.360 Do you feel like like philanthropy is talking and thinking about, you know, like teacher capacity and like professional development and you know, communities of practice and like change management and you know, all these things. 00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:56.639 Is it like at the top of the list of priorities? 00:58:56.800 --> 00:59:03.840 Is it you know, like how does it sort of compare to, you know, or is it even part of the conversation around AI? 00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:05.039 Because they're obviously investing. 00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:07.920 I mean, like there are no doubt, like lots of funders do invest in those things. 00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:11.199 What I for me, sometimes it's not always the same person, though. 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:13.280 You're

sometimes you're talking to the person on the AI team. 00:59:13.360 --> 00:59:13.519 Yeah. 00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:18.480 And they're like, oh, you should talk to so-and-so on the like K-12, you know, teacher capacity team. 00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:26.400 And it's like, aren't those the same, like those are the same to me, but I like uh how do I answer this question? 00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:41.199 Uh uh diplomatically, I would say that I think that sometimes the folks who are proponents of technology and want to see more of that technology in schools are not people who understand how schools actually work. 00:59:41.440 --> 01:00:00.719 And so either those functions are very separate, the tech and tech adoption and the and the actual like work of schools and teacher learning, or the tech adoption overshadows the uh there's kind of almost an assumption if we build it, they will learn it and they will come, you know, and it's like, no, it needs to be also attended to. 01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:05.280 And so I feel like we're starting to crack that nut a little bit with the like curriculum. 01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:10.320 Like people are understanding if we want to do high-quality curriculum, we have to pair it with learning. 01:00:10.480 --> 01:00:12.000 It's not just going to implement itself, right? 01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:24.320 Like I so I feel like we're seeing some shifts, but I also see this like retrenchment, and it's showing up like in data that there's a step back from K-12 investment. 01:00:24.639 --> 01:00:40.719 Um, that either folks are going more into the technology and stepping away from like the actual like work of teachers and students, which is a concern in its own right, or they're going, oh, well, we need to actually not just be thinking about schools, we need to be thinking about like housing and healthcare. 01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:43.199 And and and I'm like, well, yes, that's true, right? 01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:46.800 Kids don't live in schools, kids live in communities and they need all those things. 01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:55.679 But that doesn't mean that we should, it's it shouldn't be a zero-sum game where because we now care about these other things, we care about less about sort of like K-12 than what's happening educationally. 01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:07.760 I feel like that sort of core technology of schools to teach our student content is losing market share in philanthropy right now, at a time when actually it is really important that it not, and it makes me nervous. 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:08.960 It makes me really nervous. 01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:09.280 Yeah. 01:01:09.360 --> 01:01:16.159 Um, I feel like oh, sometimes like a Trojan horse because we're the AI education project, and we don't we're not here to help you implement AI tools. 01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:19.039 I'm gonna change my tune on that because I think we are getting closer to that. 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:25.119 But it's more about we're here to help you do, you know,

make sure that you are implementing them in a way that is teacher-centered and advancing on these things. 01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:37.280 But most of our work is, you know, like high-quality teaching and learning practices that happen in core subjects, and you're really getting into, you know, building durable skills and you know, career connected learning. 01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:44.639 And the more people dig into our work, they're like, this is like none of this is terribly new or innovative, which is almost by design, right? 01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:53.360 Like, actually, we like like our goal is not to go into schools and say we were we're here to revolutionize your district, because that isn't they have lots of disruption happening to them. 01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:53.920 Yes. 01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:57.119 Like that, like disruption is not the thing that gets them excited. 01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:11.599 But but uh the we I literally have gotten counseled and they said, like, well, look, uh, I don't hate it was this was like a bigger consultancy, but you know, literally like sort of like verbatim, they were like, we this is a really tough, like your your your angle is really tough. 01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:18.960 Like systems change and school transformation, uh, it's just losing a lot of people are not excited about it anymore. 01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:31.920 Like funders spent you know a long time investing in it, feel like a lot of them feel like they haven't really seen you know a ton of you know outcomes from all that investment, and it just feels intractable. 01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:43.840 And I worry about this, like the idea that, well, maybe AI is the silver bullet that will allow us to sort of like skip past all of that and just you know use this technology to solve all the things. 01:02:44.400 --> 01:03:02.000 And I think most smart people like will recognize that it isn't, but I suspect that there's almost like maybe it's others in the organization or you know, I I don't but maybe is that like a misplaced concern that because I know funders are sufficient like the folks I've talked to are do not really think it's a silver bullet. 01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:05.199 Like I think they're actually like appropriately skeptical. 01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:10.239 But you go to these conferences and it kind of does feel like it's you know, yeah. 01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:15.440 Well, who's doing the selling and who's who's doing the talking, you know, at those in those spaces, right? 01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:16.719 Are we talking to educators? 01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:17.840 Are we talking to young people? 01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:20.639 I mean, I think young people know, you know, I have a young person, right? 01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:21.760 I have a 13-year-old. 01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:24.480 Young people know that this is part of their future. 01:03:24.800 --> 01:03:31.840 And I think they want to understand it and they want to have agency as to whether or not they use it. 01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:34.079 So it's it's not gonna go away. 01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:35.679 I just think it's a tool. 01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:37.360 Chalkboards were a tool. 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.280 Laptops are a tool. 01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:48.480 They're a t it's a it's a tool, and it's it's uh it's a set of very powerful tools and very evolutionary tools because like you can we you and I created a tool at the beginning of this call. 01:03:48.639 --> 01:03:51.760 Like, you know, like you can, you know, it's not it's not a static tool, right? 01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:58.239 It's it's a dynamic tool, which is different than than most of the tools that have been introduced that are much more static in nature. 01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:02.239 So it's exciting, but you there is no silver bullet for sure. 01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:03.119 We know this. 01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:13.440 And I think if the more that we see it as a tool versus a solution, I think the better off we might be because solutions have been pitched to teachers for a long time, and none of them have been solutions. 01:04:13.519 --> 01:04:14.159 You know what I mean? 01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:19.920 It's a tool that helps you do things better, helps advance what you your goals for your student, you know. 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:23.519 Like I just again, it's that user-centered view. 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:26.960 And I think that those users are teachers and students. 01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:29.119 You know, I think this is not just an adult game. 01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:36.400 Like you said, there's ways in which the kids are probably w way out ahead of the teachers on some of this, depending on their access, depending on their savviness. 01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:42.880 So, how are we thinking about you know, ensuring that it is being seen as a tool and not an answer? 01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:47.599 It's I have a I have to go. 01:04:48.239 --> 01:04:49.760 Well, thank you so much for sticking with us.