התמלול המלא של Shameless meets Working Hard: the BTS of building a multi million dollar podcasting phenomenon

to come on to talk about that 37 00:01:55.969 --> 00:01:58.480 because I think I've heard you speak about that, particularly 38 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:00.480 when you were like setting your intentions for this year. 39 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:03.359 And I thought that was very, I don't think we 40 00:02:03.379 --> 00:02:05.079 hear that being talked about enough. 41 00:02:05.140 --> 00:02:08.789 Our intention for the year is destroy. Destroy, but also worthless, 42 00:02:08.830 --> 00:02:12.930 which means they shouldn't usually work together. Yeah. It can. 43 00:02:13.150 --> 00:02:16.490 It can. We're trying to prove to ourselves that it can. 44 00:02:16.990 --> 00:02:20.530 And do you find that the increased productivity but lower 45 00:02:20.669 --> 00:02:22.270 time spent working, is it working for you? 46 00:02:22.289 --> 00:02:25.000 Well, yeah. We've both gone part-time this year. 47 00:02:25.009 --> 00:02:28.319 I had a baby in May last year, so I'm 48 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.020 working three days a week. 49 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:33.210 Zaz is down to four. I would say it is. 50 00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:35.520 I think the thing and the great benefit of having 51 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:39.409 a co-founder is And the unique thing about how Michelle 52 00:02:39.430 --> 00:02:42.150 and I work together is I probably won't work with 53 00:02:42.229 --> 00:02:44.210 anyone as well as I do, Michelle. I mean, not 54 00:02:44.250 --> 00:02:45.750 I think. I know that for a fact. And I 55 00:02:45.770 --> 00:02:48.870 think we work incredibly efficiently together and very productively together. 56 00:02:49.229 --> 00:02:51.409 And we always knew this, but I think last year 57 00:02:51.810 --> 00:02:54.090 when Michelle had so much on her plate, caring for 58 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:55.689 a baby, caring for her mom, and I was kind 59 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:58.479 of working in the business by myself, I realized how 60 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:02.000 much slower I was working and how much longer everything 61 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:03.639 was taking me. Because I think when it's the two 62 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:06.250 of us together, it's not just Oh, we're twice as fast. 63 00:03:06.370 --> 00:03:07.610 I would say when the two of us are together, 64 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:11.870 it's like. 10 times. Yeah. That like exponential. Yeah. 65 00:03:11.889 --> 00:03:13.590 But I feel like that's really important. And I feel 66 00:03:13.629 --> 00:03:16.530 like working out those inflection points. whatever that might be 67 00:03:16.550 --> 00:03:18.069 for you. Like there might be someone listening to this 68 00:03:18.129 --> 00:03:21.039 who has a co-founder and that's true for them, but 69 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:23.439 lots of people are obviously doing their solo careers. I 70 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:26.080 think that even just working out like how you work 71 00:03:26.139 --> 00:03:28.819 best and like what conditions you work best in and 72 00:03:28.860 --> 00:03:32.159 what's actually conducive to like a better overall work environment. 73 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:34.560 Because I think that what I got wrong that I 74 00:03:34.699 --> 00:03:38.330 only really noticed over the last two years is is 75 00:03:38.349 --> 00:03:41.650 that I've just clearly always aspired to work the most possible, 76 00:03:42.129 --> 00:03:44.740 not actually because that's what I want to do, but 77 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:48.139 because that's to me was like equated with success. 78 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:51.439 So I was just like, okay, well, I. 79 00:03:51.379 --> 00:03:52.919 Guess I just need to be doing more and more 80 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.740 and more and increasing that overall capacity and input as 81 00:03:56.780 --> 00:03:57.560 well as output. 82 00:03:57.979 --> 00:04:00.550 And it just did not end up well for me. 83 00:04:00.930 --> 00:04:04.569 It's really interesting. I actually think, I wonder if you 84 00:04:04.629 --> 00:04:09.270 agree with this, having a baby... and my time looking different, 85 00:04:09.569 --> 00:04:12.159 and also caring for a terminally ill mum last year, 86 00:04:12.180 --> 00:04:14.300 I think it forced Zara and I to really think 87 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:17.339 about what our priorities were, how we actually needed to 88 00:04:17.379 --> 00:04:20.709 serve the business, where we wanted to go with it all. 89 00:04:20.829 --> 00:04:23.629 I think we kind of had to refocus everything. And 90 00:04:23.670 --> 00:04:26.209 we realised when we looked across our week... We were 91 00:04:26.350 --> 00:04:28.490 actually spending a lot of time in things that did 92 00:04:28.550 --> 00:04:31.230 not require us. And we were creating like a big 93 00:04:31.329 --> 00:04:35.540 bottleneck because we were across every single thing. We were 94 00:04:35.629 --> 00:04:37.649 holding some of the team back, I think. 95 00:04:37.980 --> 00:04:39.360 Yeah, I think there's a couple of things there. I 96 00:04:39.379 --> 00:04:41.939 think that's definitely true. And I think it's the most 97 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:45.939 like unoriginal experience for any founder where you have to 98 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:48.560 relinquish some level of control. And that is like incredibly 99 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:50.639 hard when you feel like you are actually the one 100 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:53.550 that needs to be responsible for every decision. But I 101 00:04:53.610 --> 00:04:56.310 actually think we've always been relatively boundaried with work. Like 102 00:04:56.449 --> 00:05:00.180 even when we started this, we worked so much, but 103 00:05:00.300 --> 00:05:02.519 I think we always knew we never wanted to work 104 00:05:02.620 --> 00:05:04.860 that much. We knew we needed to work that much 105 00:05:04.899 --> 00:05:06.560 to get this thing off the ground. But the minute 106 00:05:06.579 --> 00:05:08.420 we didn't have to, I was going to stop. My 107 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.399

life outside of work has always meant so much to me. 108 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.199 And I knew I was better at my job when 109 00:05:13.220 --> 00:05:14.680 we had that balance. And I think we always had 110 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.379 that balance. It was then getting to the point where 111 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:18.110 it's like, okay, we have balance Monday to Friday, nine 112 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:19.930 to five. How do we get this to a three 113 00:05:19.970 --> 00:05:21.470 day a week and a four day a week job? Yeah. 114 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:23.519 And so that's been really interesting for us in the 115 00:05:23.540 --> 00:05:24.240 last couple of months. 116 00:05:24.420 --> 00:05:25.579 And I want to come on to speak about that 117 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.629 because I think that's both interesting and I think really 118 00:05:29.069 --> 00:05:31.430 important that you've been public about that. Because I think 119 00:05:31.470 --> 00:05:35.129 particularly with female founders who have to prove themselves over 120 00:05:35.189 --> 00:05:37.350 and over and over in a way that we don't 121 00:05:37.389 --> 00:05:40.670 necessarily see from other founders, I think that there's an 122 00:05:40.769 --> 00:05:42.949 aspect of needing to prove that you are doing the 123 00:05:42.990 --> 00:05:46.110 maximum output at all times. in order to prove that 124 00:05:46.129 --> 00:05:49.310 you're even working hard towards your goal, which just actually 125 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.779 isn't true because if the most effective and productive way 126 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.399 of running the company is to change that, then great, 127 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:56.959 let's do that. But I think that I definitely have 128 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:00.689 like treaded water for years because I've been like, if 129 00:06:00.769 --> 00:06:04.069 at any point, like for Tala, for example, I've been like, 130 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.189 full time on Tala, despite the fact that I also 131 00:06:08.209 --> 00:06:11.069 have multiple other jobs. And so it's been crazy, but 132 00:06:11.290 --> 00:06:15.069 that's purely because I've been like wanting to prove to everyone, 133 00:06:15.209 --> 00:06:17.689 investors in particular, like, well, I'm a. 134 00:06:18.149 --> 00:06:19.209 Hundred percent on this. 135 00:06:19.250 --> 00:06:21.970 Like you couldn't, Even if you had another founder without 136 00:06:22.029 --> 00:06:24.129 other businesses, like, you couldn't get someone more on this. 137 00:06:24.209 --> 00:06:26.189 Is that to say, like, I deserve it? If I 138 00:06:26.209 --> 00:06:28.629 put all these hours in, I deserve the success that. 139 00:06:28.550 --> 00:06:33.339 Comes from it. Exactly. Oh, it's 100% an insecurity thing. Yeah. Well, 140 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.220 I mean, at least we got to the bottom of it. 141 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:37.639 But I'd love to know. 142 00:06:38.379 --> 00:06:40.899 When you were younger what were your

kind of dream. 143 00:06:40.699 --> 00:06:46.819 Careers I was that young kid who created magazines like 144 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:49.370 I had a magazine called lipstick that I charged my 145 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:51.310 that's so family for I don't. 146 00:06:51.209 --> 00:06:53.430 Be in a rom-com yeah when they were like oh 147 00:06:53.490 --> 00:06:55.509 children with all these magazines which that was me. 148 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:59.220 I love that and I'd love writing movie scripts for 149 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.220 my family and I'd like force them all to participate 150 00:07:02.259 --> 00:07:04.100 and I'd film them. That was me as a young 151 00:07:04.180 --> 00:07:05.800 kid and then I think the older I got. In 152 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:08.370 high school, I really didn't think that you could go 153 00:07:08.550 --> 00:07:10.769 into the media and actually, I didn't really know what 154 00:07:10.810 --> 00:07:11.870 media jobs looked like. 155 00:07:11.930 --> 00:07:14.050 I didn't think you could make money at all. 156 00:07:14.170 --> 00:07:16.370 So I kind of pivoted and I decided I was 157 00:07:16.389 --> 00:07:18.629 going to be a physiotherapist for a long time. 158 00:07:18.810 --> 00:07:21.230 Yeah. And then eventually landed on this. I got into 159 00:07:21.269 --> 00:07:24.149 blogging as a teenager and then pretty quickly found my 160 00:07:24.189 --> 00:07:28.389 way Yeah, I think not dissimilarly, I was quite obsessive 161 00:07:28.430 --> 00:07:31.689 about women's magazines when I was a kid. You loved writing. 162 00:07:31.790 --> 00:07:34.589 I loved writing and I loved magazines. And it is 163 00:07:34.610 --> 00:07:37.600 really interesting what those initial goals you have when you're 164 00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:38.920 younger because I think by the time you get to 165 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.240 high school, a lot of people started warning me off 166 00:07:41.259 --> 00:07:44.240 going to journalism and going into the media. Yeah. And 167 00:07:44.339 --> 00:07:47.470 you start to lose the gusto and motivation for it 168 00:07:47.509 --> 00:07:49.569 because everyone's like, there are no jobs and it's very, 169 00:07:49.610 --> 00:07:51.490 very hard to crack into. And I also didn't know 170 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:53.220 anyone in media. I didn't know how to do it. 171 00:07:53.230 --> 00:07:55.250 You hear all the fear. You hear all the fear. 172 00:07:55.370 --> 00:07:57.110 And my siblings were all going into like a very 173 00:07:57.129 --> 00:08:00.230 stable career in the law. And so I was kind 174 00:08:00.269 --> 00:08:02.949 of like, well, I guess it's not that dissimilar. So 175 00:08:03.259 --> 00:08:04.959 I spent a lot of time thinking about that. But 176 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:07.779 at the 11th hour, still decided to pursue journalism, knowing 177 00:08:07.819 --> 00:08:09.139 full well I had no idea what I was going 178 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:10.720 to do with it. But I think the core of

179 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:13.449 what we wanted was the same. I think Over the years, 180 00:08:13.470 --> 00:08:15.470 we just got scared off a little bit. Yeah. And 181 00:08:15.610 --> 00:08:18.629 so having been scared off it, you then. 182 00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:21.709 Decided, actually, no, we are going to go into journalism. 183 00:08:21.769 --> 00:08:23.029 Is that kind of what happened? And that's how you 184 00:08:23.050 --> 00:08:23.850 two met. Is that right? 185 00:08:24.009 --> 00:08:27.750 We met at our first career jobs. We were both 186 00:08:27.889 --> 00:08:31.439 interns at a publication called Mamma Mia. It's huge here 187 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.419 in Australia. We were both at the satellite office in Melbourne. 188 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:36.700 It's based in Sydney. We were at this Melbourne office. 189 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:40.139 And yeah, we were interns. Then what was our first? 190 00:08:40.419 --> 00:08:42.230 I think we were 20. 191 00:08:42.230 --> 00:08:44.389 Yeah, we would have been 19 or 20 and then 192 00:08:45.190 --> 00:08:48.909 first job was like editorial coordinator or assistant or. 193 00:08:48.870 --> 00:08:50.990 Something like that. Yeah, it feels like a lifetime ago. 194 00:08:51.009 --> 00:08:54.529 Like little coffee runs for the senior staff. Didn't take 195 00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:56.710 a lot of time. Big editorial work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 196 00:08:56.730 --> 00:08:58.950 Just like loading up the posts to get ready for 197 00:08:58.970 --> 00:09:00.009 the editors to read them. 198 00:09:00.110 --> 00:09:02.309 All the serious writers would like send you their stuff 199 00:09:02.389 --> 00:09:04.450 and you just had to like format it. That was 200 00:09:04.490 --> 00:09:07.889 basically the job. So everyone would throw you things. And 201 00:09:08.169 --> 00:09:10.769 Zara and I, I think it took us a little bit. 202 00:09:10.789 --> 00:09:13.429 It wasn't like we– we met and our eyes like 203 00:09:13.590 --> 00:09:14.490 met across the. 204 00:09:14.370 --> 00:09:17.110 Room and we fell in love as a world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 205 00:09:17.529 --> 00:09:19.029 It wasn't that. I think it was a bit of 206 00:09:19.049 --> 00:09:19.809 a slow burn. 207 00:09:19.850 --> 00:09:22.230 We slowly realized we're working a lot of weekends together, 208 00:09:22.269 --> 00:09:23.750 just the two of us in the office, and we 209 00:09:23.769 --> 00:09:27.220 slowly realized how much we had in common and also 210 00:09:27.700 --> 00:09:32.320 the way we liked seeing content was so neatly aligned. 211 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:34.679 Yeah, and I don't think we saw that everywhere. Like 212 00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:38.080 we have a very specific taste in content and how– 213 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.720 We think it sticks. And I think we always just 214 00:09:41.779 --> 00:09:44.019 agree with that from the start. And we've never disagreed 215 00:09:44.070 --> 00:09:45.769 on that. Like, we have never disagreed on what good 216 00:09:45.789 --> 00:09:46.289 content is. 217 00:09:46.669 --> 00:09:49.330 And what year was that approximately? Because I'm trying to 218 00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:51.169 think of the, like, social media landscape. 2015. 219 00:09:51.169 --> 00:09:55.309 Okay, so super early social media landscape. Very early. 220 00:09:55.450 --> 00:09:58.250 It was big, like, Mamma Mia at the time was 221 00:09:58.490 --> 00:09:59.750 big on the kind of. 222 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:06.820 parenting, personal story, blogging. Facebook. The Facebook algorithm was huge. 223 00:10:06.940 --> 00:10:09.100 And what we watched there, I don't know if you 224 00:10:09.139 --> 00:10:11.179 were around media at this time, but in Australia, what 225 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.539 the biggest thing was, was all these digital publications were 226 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:16.940 starting to struggle because the Facebook algorithm changed and then 227 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.419 all these business models started to collapse. Right. I wasn't 228 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:20.379 actually around media. 229 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.519 That was the year that I started my dedicated K-9 230 00:10:22.539 --> 00:10:23.919 fitness account. 231 00:10:26.269 --> 00:10:27.990 So you understand part of it. I was in media. 232 00:10:28.029 --> 00:10:30.909 Hair fit. Hair fit. I was a publication. You were 233 00:10:30.970 --> 00:10:31.350 a mobile. 234 00:10:31.529 --> 00:10:31.669 Yeah. 235 00:10:31.690 --> 00:10:32.509 If you're thinking about it. 236 00:10:32.529 --> 00:10:32.950 Yeah. 237 00:10:33.009 --> 00:10:34.289 Exactly. 238 00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:37.330 And what I'm really interested in, because I think that, 239 00:10:37.409 --> 00:10:39.350 I mean, I spoke to you briefly before and I 240 00:10:39.389 --> 00:10:41.529 said that so many of the people in my office, like, 241 00:10:42.049 --> 00:10:44.659 massive shameless fans and I was talking to them about 242 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:47.700 like okay if you're not going to hear shameless in 243 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:50.259 the format that it comes in what do you actually 244 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:52.940 want to know about you guys and the behind the 245 00:10:52.980 --> 00:10:55.700 scenes and more about you as people because I think 246 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:57.539 that we hear a lot about you as people in 247 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:00.860 a really clever way through the existing formats that you 248 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:03.440 do but I think there's so much that comes up 249 00:11:03.500 --> 00:11:06.039 from that because it's not the focus it's like so 250 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:08.399 much more interest in the wider like what you've been 251 00:11:08.450 --> 00:11:11.039 able to do The big thing that came through when 252 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:15.820 I was talking to people was you obviously started as journalists, 253 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:20.379 started as writers and then decided to start a podcast. 254

00:11:20.610 --> 00:11:24.110 But then rather than that being necessarily like, OK, great, 255 00:11:24.129 --> 00:11:27.090 we've got a podcast. This can take off like we're 256 00:11:27.129 --> 00:11:29.350 in early days of podcasting and it's actually doing really well. 257 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:31.620 Let's try to do the biggest podcast possible. 258 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.379 Instead, you were like, we're going to do a podcast 259 00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:37.509 network and like start this company, which I don't think 260 00:11:37.570 --> 00:11:38.669 is a natural way of thinking. 261 00:11:38.710 --> 00:11:40.950 And I say that as someone who loves to start 262 00:11:40.970 --> 00:11:42.389 a company. Yeah. 263 00:11:42.409 --> 00:11:46.879 So what gave you that like think bigger kind of mindset? 264 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.639 I think it was the thing that drove us at 265 00:11:50.659 --> 00:11:53.370 the start was fact we had a surplus of ideas. 266 00:11:53.649 --> 00:11:55.950 So I don't think there was anything else beyond, we've 267 00:11:55.990 --> 00:11:58.129 just got so many ideas and we can't shove them 268 00:11:58.169 --> 00:12:00.529 all into Shameless. No, you're so right. And so it 269 00:12:00.610 --> 00:12:02.389 started with that to say, okay, well, we had the 270 00:12:02.409 --> 00:12:04.529 surplus of ideas. What do we do with them? We 271 00:12:04.570 --> 00:12:07.549 could make 20 shows, maybe not 20, that's probably an exaggeration, 272 00:12:07.570 --> 00:12:08.889 but I think we could make five or six shows 273 00:12:08.909 --> 00:12:10.750 tomorrow if we wanted to, because we've got ideas sitting 274 00:12:10.769 --> 00:12:13.019 in our back pockets and that we've been speaking about. 275 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.259 But I think beyond that, we felt a lot of 276 00:12:16.460 --> 00:12:20.190 pressure that we And this is the thing. I'm sure 277 00:12:20.289 --> 00:12:22.809 every podcaster feels this. We just wanted to do something 278 00:12:22.870 --> 00:12:25.389 about it and rid ourselves of this pressure. But so 279 00:12:25.450 --> 00:12:27.549 much of our income and our revenue was tied to 280 00:12:27.570 --> 00:12:29.980 the two of us just sitting down every day talking. 281 00:12:30.419 --> 00:12:33.720 And I think deep down, I'm relatively risk averse for 282 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:35.840 a founder. I wouldn't say like as a person, I'm 283 00:12:35.860 --> 00:12:38.059 like the most risk averse. But I think in comparison 284 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:40.259 to other founders, I'm pretty averse. I think we were 285 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:42.799 definitely like, well, what happens if something happens here? If 286 00:12:42.860 --> 00:12:45.059 life gets in the way? We definitely spent a lot 287 00:12:45.100 --> 00:12:47.120 of time thinking about, well, what if we want kids? 288 00:12:47.649 --> 00:12:50.070 And it didn't feel like a smart business for it 289 00:12:50.149 --> 00:12:53.450 to just go straight at one show with one product 290 00:12:53.809 --> 00:12:56.190 dependent on the two of us always turning up. And 291 00:12:56.230 --> 00:12:58.690 so we needed to diversify how we were bringing in money. 292 00:12:59.049 --> 00:13:00.769 And that was so the secondary part. 293 00:13:01.149 --> 00:13:02.929 I think it also was born out of us just 294 00:13:03.269 --> 00:13:05.840 genuinely having a bit of fun doing it. Yeah. Kind 295 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.860 of funny because I don't think we sat down and 296 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:11.059 were like, and here's the vision for like this huge 297 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:16.269 podcast network. We really like creating shit together. We have 298 00:13:16.289 --> 00:13:17.750 a really, really good time. 299 00:13:17.850 --> 00:13:20.799 It's funny. Like one of us will have an idea. 300 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:23.659 Zara had this incredible idea four years ago. 301 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:29.480 And I remember like there's something almost electric that happens 302 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.460 between us that this idea gets put up and it's 303 00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:34.809 like we have to do that. And so a lot 304 00:13:34.850 --> 00:13:37.909 of it has been born out of just genuine passion 305 00:13:38.190 --> 00:13:41.210 for creating shows that we wish were out there. And 306 00:13:41.350 --> 00:13:46.720 the fun of the idea to actual existence process. And 307 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.320 so sometimes I think we look back, like we do 308 00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:51.019 this all the time, probably at least a few times 309 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:52.600 a year where we're like, oh God, was this the 310 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:54.620 right path to take? We could have easily just taken 311 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:57.500 Shameless to a network and, you know, made good money 312 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.179 and been far less stressed. 313 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:01.809 But it wouldn't have been as fulfilling. 314 00:14:01.929 --> 00:14:04.769 We find it so fulfilling to create the things we 315 00:14:04.789 --> 00:14:05.490 want to see out there. 316 00:14:05.590 --> 00:14:08.629 Well, because I also think that there's a very specific 317 00:14:08.710 --> 00:14:12.669 place for creators to in the wider business world. I 318 00:14:12.730 --> 00:14:15.129 say that not necessarily in terms of that being the 319 00:14:15.169 --> 00:14:18.200 right thing. I just think, for example, when you just 320 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.840 said that, like you could sell it to a network 321 00:14:20.899 --> 00:14:23.120 essentially and work for them and probably get a big 322 00:14:23.139 --> 00:14:27.659 payout and and go into work essentially as um contracted 323 00:14:27.940 --> 00:14:31.700 you know podcasters I think the reality is then the 324 00:14:32.379 --> 00:14:35.190 creativity is really stripped from that role it's like we've 325 00:14:35.230 --> 00:14:37.990 signed you as the people who are

essentially presenting this 326 00:14:38.470 --> 00:14:40.990 rather than necessarily like I think the one person who's 327 00:14:41.090 --> 00:14:44.289 really broken out of that who's been sold to a 328 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:47.700 network would be Alex Cooper and like who quite clearly 329 00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:51.830 has some involvement in like the wider creation of ideas 330 00:14:51.870 --> 00:14:54.129 and like all of this but I think that that's 331 00:14:54.210 --> 00:14:56.690 such a smart thing to recognize early because I think 332 00:14:56.750 --> 00:14:59.990 had I been in your position I would naturally think 333 00:15:00.070 --> 00:15:03.629 like what is the fastest path to most prestigious success 334 00:15:04.049 --> 00:15:06.409 which in my mind would have been like oh well 335 00:15:06.549 --> 00:15:09.649 when I'm co-signed by a bigger company that to me 336 00:15:10.110 --> 00:15:10.850 is like again. 337 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.730 Oh, come on, I'm talking to security babes. Like, you know, fine. 338 00:15:13.870 --> 00:15:15.129 Most things for all of us, too. 339 00:15:15.470 --> 00:15:17.289 But I think that that is like, it's a really 340 00:15:17.350 --> 00:15:19.970 smart thing of you to have worked out so early on. 341 00:15:20.529 --> 00:15:24.549 We enjoy the curation and creation and ideation. And actually, 342 00:15:24.909 --> 00:15:27.870 we only get that if we have pretty full on ownership, 343 00:15:28.070 --> 00:15:30.570 or at least it's carved out as like, this. 344 00:15:30.450 --> 00:15:33.230 Is our role. To be really self-aware, though, because that 345 00:15:33.289 --> 00:15:35.750 is a nice thing to recognise, but I don't think 346 00:15:35.789 --> 00:15:37.309 it was that smart at the start because we did 347 00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:39.269 want to go to a network. No one wanted us. 348 00:15:39.370 --> 00:15:41.570 And I think that's important to know. No one would 349 00:15:41.590 --> 00:15:42.830 pick us up for the first year. 350 00:15:42.929 --> 00:15:46.070 It wasn't like we rejected this beautiful offer of amazing 351 00:15:46.129 --> 00:15:48.009 money and if we could go back in time and 352 00:15:48.049 --> 00:15:50.460 that offer was on the table, could I guarantee we 353 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:51.720 would have said no? 354 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:54.440 It just wasn't there. But by the time it came 355 00:15:55.100 --> 00:15:58.909 was when we were able to have– I think the 356 00:15:59.129 --> 00:16:02.490 sense of pragmatism. The wherewithal. And the wherewithal to say, actually, 357 00:16:03.149 --> 00:16:05.210 what they're offering right now is not better than what 358 00:16:05.669 --> 00:16:08.850 we've got for ourselves. I also don't know how we'd 359 00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:14.769 go having someone now tell us how to make our show. 360 00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:16.429 Because you've proved yourself over and over and over. 361 00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:20.230 And I do think that there's, like, with the lovely 362 00:16:20.289 --> 00:16:23.809 naivety of being an early founder, you're often also able 363 00:16:23.850 --> 00:16:25.830 to be, like, pushed around quite a lot because you 364 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:29.149 do think, like, oh, well, all of these people who've 365 00:16:29.169 --> 00:16:31.309 done this for a job for longer know much better, 366 00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:33.789 which I was susceptible to a lot and made a 367 00:16:33.830 --> 00:16:36.070 lot of bad decisions based on just being like, oh, 368 00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:38.720 a big important person walks into a room, I must 369 00:16:38.769 --> 00:16:42.799 like shut up. And actually just you've now over and 370 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:44.940 over and over been able to see your ideas come 371 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:46.960 to fruition and the results of those in a way 372 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:48.559 that I don't think anyone could come to you and 373 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.340 be like, even from a massive network and be like, 374 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:53.399 you guys actually aren't very good at ideation. 375 00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:57.340 I think you'd be like, You actually just can't say that. Like, 376 00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:58.500 that's just not true. 377 00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:02.779 It is interesting having meetings with the kind of big 378 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:07.680 network heads because they've obviously achieved incredible things, but the 379 00:17:08.089 --> 00:17:11.309 path that Shameless Media has taken has been so different. 380 00:17:11.650 --> 00:17:13.950 So it's kind of funny sitting in those rooms sometimes 381 00:17:14.009 --> 00:17:16.150 because it almost feels like you're talking about two completely 382 00:17:16.190 --> 00:17:18.910 different things just because their strategy and our internal strategy 383 00:17:18.950 --> 00:17:22.980 has been so, sometimes so completely divorced from each other. 384 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.160 Yeah, at the moment... I'm trying to work out how 385 00:17:26.180 --> 00:17:28.380 to say this without like, I don't know, let's see 386 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.180 how I go without giving too much away. But, you know, 387 00:17:31.299 --> 00:17:33.390 you're obviously constantly talking to networks because you want to 388 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:35.809 make sure that you're not as a business on an island, 389 00:17:36.089 --> 00:17:37.930 just doing your own thing without any sense of what's 390 00:17:37.950 --> 00:17:40.890 going on in the industry at large. And we constantly 391 00:17:40.950 --> 00:17:43.710 hear bigger networks and their strategies and we look at 392 00:17:43.769 --> 00:17:46.809 our own and we think, okay, ours is pretty wildly 393 00:17:46.849 --> 00:17:49.730 different to everybody else. And so 80% of the time 394 00:17:49.769 --> 00:17:51.470 I'm like, I think this is a good thing because 395 00:17:51.509 --> 00:17:53.009 this has always been the way for us and that's

396 00:17:53.029 --> 00:17:55.720 what's worked. But I also never want to not be 397 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.329 humble enough to be like, well, are we missing something? 398 00:17:59.349 --> 00:17:59.609 Sure. 399 00:17:59.630 --> 00:18:01.289 You don't want to be too arrogant about it. I 400 00:18:01.329 --> 00:18:03.450 think that's like a surefire way to sink your business too. 401 00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:05.190 So you have to, I think there is like an 402 00:18:05.250 --> 00:18:07.210 important level of doubt you need to hold on to 403 00:18:07.250 --> 00:18:10.420 as well. A hundred percent. A very important part of business. 404 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.460 And I think that actually that's probably the reason why 405 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:15.400 so many entrepreneurs do have a little bit of a 406 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.680 chip on their shoulder because like that actually enables you 407 00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:20.990 to be able to like look to other people. 408 00:18:21.269 --> 00:18:24.400 You can't go into everything thinking that you're like, The shit. 409 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:24.910 Hot shit. 410 00:18:24.990 --> 00:18:26.750 I think the feedback loop is so quick when it 411 00:18:26.809 --> 00:18:29.529 comes to entrepreneurship. Like, you learn what's not working all 412 00:18:29.549 --> 00:18:31.029 the time that you really just need to know how 413 00:18:31.049 --> 00:18:32.990 many mistakes you're making a day. And as long as 414 00:18:33.009 --> 00:18:35.529 you can, like, move forward from that, like, that is 415 00:18:35.609 --> 00:18:36.410 how you succeed. 416 00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:37.230 We're also, to. 417 00:18:37.170 --> 00:18:40.619 This day, still really naive about certain things. 418 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:41.160 Like, we. 419 00:18:43.029 --> 00:18:44.559 We started this at 23. 420 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.480 We had never had any aspirations before to run a business. 421 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.759 Like it was kind of like the content stuff was self-fulfilling. 422 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:53.700 That was our passion. 423 00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:56.369 And then off the back of that passion, we grew 424 00:18:56.390 --> 00:19:00.930 a business. And so we found ourselves, when did we 425 00:19:00.950 --> 00:19:03.069 have a team? We would have been 24, 25. 426 00:19:03.049 --> 00:19:03.430 Yeah. 427 00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:07.430 You know, knowing nothing about that. so it's kind of 428 00:19:07.589 --> 00:19:11.630 funny balancing that naivety and that ignorance which was powerful 429 00:19:11.670 --> 00:19:13.339 in getting us here but also being able to turn 430 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.119 around and go we do not know so much to 431 00:19:15.150 --> 00:19:19.759 this day yeah and so how practically did that work 432 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.539 you decide that you've you've obviously started this podcast and 433 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.640 you decide that you want to start a bigger network 434 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:25.640 how did you. 435 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:28.799 Start to identify like the revenue number you even need 436 00:19:28.819 --> 00:19:30.680 to get to to be able to like hire some 437 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.180 people or like whether it's going to be like the 438 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:35.079 smart margins business or like. 439 00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.660 Grace you would shut up or you didn't. 440 00:19:38.019 --> 00:19:41.849 Well I yeah we didn't I mean but to that 441 00:19:42.029 --> 00:19:45.809 end a lot of people have asked us you know 442 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:48.410 did you ever you know it's you guys are bootstrapped 443 00:19:48.450 --> 00:19:49.890 and all of these kinds of things and we've been 444 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.339 profitable since the start. And a lot of people are like, 445 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.589 and when did you decide that? And I think for 446 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:56.269 us from the start, it was just that we didn't 447 00:19:56.309 --> 00:19:58.089 think that there was another option. I think we're pretty 448 00:19:58.130 --> 00:20:00.069 good with money. And we were like, we have to 449 00:20:00.109 --> 00:20:01.750 run this at a profit and we have to make 450 00:20:01.769 --> 00:20:04.420 sure we've got enough cash to constantly reinvest. And so 451 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:07.430 if anything, I think we were slightly conservative with what 452 00:20:07.450 --> 00:20:09.450 we could, you know, invest in and who we could 453 00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:11.849 hire because a lot of it was very much on 454 00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:13.789 gut feel to be like, again, the sense we can 455 00:20:13.829 --> 00:20:15.950 afford this. And we were always right because we were 456 00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:18.309 very conservative with money. So it was like stupid but 457 00:20:18.329 --> 00:20:19.170 not stupid at the same time. 458 00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:21.339 No, and I actually– I don't think– like when I 459 00:20:21.390 --> 00:20:24.099 say that, I– I didn't think about that even at 460 00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.859 the beginning either. And I feel like mine was probably 461 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.259 more straightforward in terms of like, I sell legging, I 462 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:32.829 get money, I put money into this, you know. 463 00:20:33.009 --> 00:20:35.569 We're in a totally different business, right? Like a media business. 464 00:20:35.670 --> 00:20:37.589 We don't have to buy product. We didn't have to 465 00:20:37.630 --> 00:20:41.839 be so strict with figures early on because... People were 466 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:43.079 our overheads and still are. 467 00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:45.809 Yeah. The only cost was... people. 468 00:20:45.930 --> 00:20:47.910 And we really just had to focus on getting more 469 00:20:47.950 --> 00:20:50.089 and more advertising revenue and building our audience. 470 00:20:50.210 --> 00:20:53.630 I think one thing from the start that I really wish,

471 00:20:53.710 --> 00:20:55.299 I mean, there's not much I wish we could go 472 00:20:55.339 --> 00:20:57.519 back and change, but there is one thing that I 473 00:20:57.539 --> 00:21:00.240 think about a lot. And it was this, that we 474 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:02.720 had accountants who were good at our job, but were 475 00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:05.480 never interested in empowering us to understand our own information. 476 00:21:05.500 --> 00:21:07.200 So they didn't give us access to our own P 477 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.029 & L. They would tell us about our results at 478 00:21:09.049 --> 00:21:11.950 the end of sort of every six months. And so 479 00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:16.029 we were operating very reactively. Like once we knew how 480 00:21:16.089 --> 00:21:18.630 much money we were making, then we're investing in decisions. 481 00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:22.309 And once we changed that over and someone said, here's 482 00:21:22.390 --> 00:21:25.440 access to all your reports, here's your budget, and here's 483 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:27.539 how to actually understand the numbers and see them in 484 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.019 real time. I think I didn't know to ask for 485 00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:31.779 it because I didn't know it was there because unless 486 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:33.460 someone's telling you it's there and this is what you 487 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:35.440 should be looking at, how are you ever to know? 488 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:39.630 And so I'm assuming the majority of your revenue comes 489 00:21:39.650 --> 00:21:40.309 from ad revenue. 490 00:21:40.450 --> 00:21:40.690 Yes. 491 00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:44.470 Okay. And I have no idea about how a podcast 492 00:21:44.490 --> 00:21:48.299 network would work. Purely my estimation. 493 00:21:48.630 --> 00:21:52.119 And so naturally, obviously, that's been something that's quite important 494 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:54.579 since the beginning of the business, because that's obviously, I mean, 495 00:21:54.700 --> 00:21:57.740 that's the equivalent to customer revenue from the type of 496 00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:01.339 business that I might run, for example. So how did 497 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.299 you start to, I guess, notice that pretty quickly at 498 00:22:04.339 --> 00:22:08.200 the beginning and ensure that you were getting ads on 499 00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:13.180 something that maybe was smaller? then you'd necessarily get ads. Like, 500 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.559 I don't know actually how early people would get ads 501 00:22:15.619 --> 00:22:16.599 now on podcasts. 502 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.099 We, again, just went by gut feel. 503 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:21.119 I think it was from the moment our episodes had 504 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:24.700 more than 10,000 listeners. We were like, okay, 10,000 listens 505 00:22:24.769 --> 00:22:28.569 feels like something you could ask for money for. And, uh, 506 00:22:28.730 --> 00:22:30.869 I think our first ever podcast

ad cost. 507 00:22:31.410 --> 00:22:33.029 Is it $ 80? I think it was 90. Yeah. 508 00:22:33.230 --> 00:22:37.599 We made $ 90 off that first episode, probably 15 weeks 509 00:22:37.660 --> 00:22:42.690 into doing it. Uh, But again, it was also tricky 510 00:22:42.710 --> 00:22:45.720 because Shameless podcast was growing so quickly early on. You 511 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.579 would sell in a certain rate for an episode and 512 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:50.759 be like, okay, this will get 10,000 listeners. But by 513 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:52.539 the time that episode went live, we were up to 50,000 514 00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:54.819 by that point. So we were kind of chasing our 515 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:58.099 tail for a long time. And metrics are so slow 516 00:22:58.160 --> 00:22:59.180 in podcasting as well. 517 00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:01.509 Like I, I don't know, maybe it goes up out 518 00:23:01.549 --> 00:23:04.329 of dashboards and obviously like I use a network as well. 519 00:23:04.369 --> 00:23:06.269 So that's different from it being like direct, but I 520 00:23:06.309 --> 00:23:06.950 find it really hard. 521 00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:08.829 Back then they were really slow. This was back in 522 00:23:08.849 --> 00:23:09.170 like 2018. 523 00:23:09.170 --> 00:23:11.849 Yeah. Yeah. It was a different landscape. 524 00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:13.710 So you're not getting that live data to really like 525 00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:15.089 make the decisions you need to make. 526 00:23:15.230 --> 00:23:15.430 No. 527 00:23:15.950 --> 00:23:18.430 And what would you say have been since that point 528 00:23:18.549 --> 00:23:22.009 to now having grown a massive business with how many 529 00:23:22.029 --> 00:23:22.529 people are in the team? 530 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:26.559 Oh, including podcast hosts, I think we're up to 25 plus. 531 00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:30.279 And so with significant revenue as well, what would you 532 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.089 say have been the biggest learning curves for you two 533 00:23:34.309 --> 00:23:37.769 as founders? Because you're podcast hosts of the biggest podcast, 534 00:23:37.809 --> 00:23:40.470 I'm assuming, that Shameless has. 535 00:23:40.630 --> 00:23:40.849 Yeah. 536 00:23:41.190 --> 00:23:44.670 You're also the founders. You're wearing many different hats. Like 537 00:23:44.849 --> 00:23:47.009 what have been those big learning curves? 538 00:23:47.369 --> 00:23:47.529 So many. 539 00:23:47.549 --> 00:23:50.980 So many. Um, I think early on, we were never 540 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:53.180 embarrassed to admit we didn't know something. So in a 541 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:55.640 room with anybody, we would say, we just simply don't 542 00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:57.769 know what that is. Um, and I think that was 543 00:23:57.809 --> 00:24:00.029 really important for us because I was like, there's just 544 00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:02.950 simply no way for us to learn without asking. I 545 00:24:03.450 --> 00:24:05.190 think second to that, I put a lot of pressure 546 00:24:05.269 --> 00:24:08.630 on myself in particular in the early days to be 547 00:24:08.690 --> 00:24:11.680 able to jump between the creative and the business very quickly. 548 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:13.539 So we would be like plotting a show and then 549 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.549 we'd have to go into like business strategy and I 550 00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:18.869 found that very, very difficult in the early days. And 551 00:24:18.890 --> 00:24:20.549 I kept saying to Michelle, I can't work out why 552 00:24:20.589 --> 00:24:23.710 I can't jump between this very quickly before I realized 553 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:26.759 I don't think it's that natural to be going full creative. 554 00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:27.720 Different sides of your brain. 555 00:24:27.859 --> 00:24:28.039 Yeah. 556 00:24:28.180 --> 00:24:30.519 Yeah. And so going easy on myself with that and 557 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.799 also like blocking out the time in very specific ways 558 00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:34.579 to say either you've got a show day and maybe 559 00:24:34.619 --> 00:24:36.940 the afternoon you'll do some business stuff. But having to 560 00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:38.740 be really specific about that time has been huge for 561 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:40.680 me in particular. Yeah. Because you spend more time in 562 00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:43.059 the creative. I would probably spend more time in the business. Yeah. 563 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:43.160 Yeah. 564 00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:46.019 Zaz was like so instrumental in actually building out a 565 00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:48.460 business strategy and getting us to where we are now. 566 00:24:48.579 --> 00:24:51.470 I think one of the huge lessons for me growing 567 00:24:51.490 --> 00:24:53.049 this thing has been. 568 00:24:53.369 --> 00:24:54.349 Explain the why. 569 00:24:54.369 --> 00:24:59.109 Like first of all understand the why as co-founders and 570 00:24:59.150 --> 00:25:01.759 then make sure you communicate that to your team. I 571 00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.240 remember there was a maybe some ruffled feathers in the 572 00:25:04.299 --> 00:25:06.740 team a few years ago when Zara and I had 573 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:09.299 these grand plans for the business. We were so excited 574 00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:12.369 about all this content we were rolling out. We've told 575 00:25:12.390 --> 00:25:13.950 the team about it, but we did not set it 576 00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:16.460 up with like, here's why, here's why we want to grow. 577 00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:18.119 Here's why we want to do all these cool things. 578 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:19.970 Here's why we think you should be excited about it. 579 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:22.400 And so then when the team, you know, digested that 580 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:26.019 information and instead of matching our excitement came to us 581 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:28.839 with heaps of concern and anxiety, it was

just such 582 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:31.240 a huge lesson for us. And now when we sit 583 00:25:31.349 --> 00:25:36.240 in meetings or strategy days or team retreats, the why 584 00:25:36.339 --> 00:25:39.339 is actually our favorite thing to anchor everything. It's like, 585 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.720 here is why we're here today. Here's why this meeting 586 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.269 is happening. Here's why we need to change X, Y, 587 00:25:44.289 --> 00:25:45.109 Z about the business. 588 00:25:45.529 --> 00:25:46.609 I think that's such a good point. 589 00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:48.250 And I think that was one of my big learning 590 00:25:48.269 --> 00:25:50.730 curves as well. When you're thinking about like, I think 591 00:25:51.289 --> 00:25:55.039 what I'd seen happen again and again, again, particularly from 592 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:59.000 people who'd come from big businesses was the trying to 593 00:25:59.059 --> 00:26:01.920 inspire the team by being like, we're going to get 594 00:26:01.940 --> 00:26:03.859 to like this revenue and we're going to get to 595 00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:07.480 like this exit and all of that. And like objectively 596 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:10.700 for a lot of people, that's terrifying and confusing. Like 597 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:12.940 even though that might be your company goal, what you're 598 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.240 going to invest is saying. Like, that's not that inspiring 599 00:26:16.299 --> 00:26:17.880 to a wider group of people. 600 00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:21.460 It's terrifying. It's really demotivating. It actually raises far more questions, 601 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:22.019 as you say. 602 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:25.059 I remember, like, this randomly, like, waking up in the 603 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.460 middle of the night and being like, why are we 604 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:28.000 even saying this? 605 00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:29.460 Like, it's not about lack of transparency. 606 00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:32.359 It's about, like, that doesn't, you know, like, one plus 607 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.079 one doesn't equal two in that way for, like, this 608 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:35.380 group of people. 609 00:26:35.779 --> 00:26:38.059 So, like, I remember I changed the way that. 610 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.609 I spoke about, like, when we were trying to inspire 611 00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:42.730 the team and motivate and get towards that, like, North 612 00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:43.809 Star that you talk about. 613 00:26:43.829 --> 00:26:43.950 Mm-hmm. 614 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.220 It was really changing that to be like, we want 615 00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:50.589 to get to here. And acknowledging that you might be 616 00:26:50.630 --> 00:26:53.569 here because you love the company. Yes, that's going to 617 00:26:53.589 --> 00:26:56.390 be a small proportion of people. You might be here 618 00:26:56.509 --> 00:26:58.750 because you want it to look great on your CV. 619 00:26:59.079

--> 00:27:00.839 Like you want this company to grow really fast and 620 00:27:00.859 --> 00:27:01.980 you want it to look great on your CV. 621 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.039 You might be here because... that was the only job 622 00:27:05.059 --> 00:27:06.440 that you could get at the time or whatever. 623 00:27:06.980 --> 00:27:09.839 All of those three outcomes look better if we achieve 624 00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:11.279 this goal. 625 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.559 So I don't care. Obviously, I do care. 626 00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:15.599 I'd love for you to love the company. But realistically, 627 00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:17.319 people go to work because they need to go to work. 628 00:27:17.380 --> 00:27:19.359 I'm not going to kid myself that this is your 629 00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:22.920 lifelong dream to work for my company. It's like about 630 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:27.089 understanding those motivations and being like, even if you just 631 00:27:27.109 --> 00:27:30.470 want your CV to look fucking great, this company doing 632 00:27:30.529 --> 00:27:33.940 this makes... 10 times more difference in terms of your 633 00:27:33.980 --> 00:27:36.500 next job if that was the company that really took 634 00:27:36.579 --> 00:27:40.089 off during that time. And it's about like understanding those motivations. 635 00:27:40.150 --> 00:27:41.990 And I think that naturally that's not one of those 636 00:27:42.029 --> 00:27:44.849 things that you learn right at the beginning when you 637 00:27:44.930 --> 00:27:45.990 are inspired. 638 00:27:45.569 --> 00:27:49.069 By something that maybe other people aren't. Completely. And like 639 00:27:49.529 --> 00:27:51.839 no one will care as much about your business as 640 00:27:51.900 --> 00:27:55.720 you do. And don't expect them to. Absolutely not. That's 641 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:59.509 the thing. We talk a lot to ourselves about, You know, 642 00:27:59.609 --> 00:28:02.589 when people talk about this as a family and it's 643 00:28:02.609 --> 00:28:04.730 like it's not in the best way possible. I care 644 00:28:04.849 --> 00:28:07.289 so deeply about the people we work with. They are 645 00:28:07.410 --> 00:28:11.000 such an incredible collection of people. We're incredibly lucky in 646 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.940 that sense. But I don't expect them to consider us... 647 00:28:15.500 --> 00:28:16.880 their family like yeah. 648 00:28:16.700 --> 00:28:19.880 It's that's not how i actually want that necessarily like 649 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:22.119 i want you to have your family yeah and your 650 00:28:22.180 --> 00:28:24.700 friends and whatever that family quote unquote looks like to 651 00:28:24.769 --> 00:28:26.910 you and for that to be an important part of 652 00:28:26.950 --> 00:28:30.190 your life totally agree like you will never see me 653 00:28:30.250 --> 00:28:33.890 referring to my companies as a family because that might 654 00:28:33.910 --> 00:28:35.750 be the way I think of you because I'm able

655 00:28:35.789 --> 00:28:37.319 to think of you in all of these ways because 656 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:39.519 I'm like, you're so amazing and you're doing all of 657 00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:40.400 these things for me. 658 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:43.599 Like, how much is that like a 360 interruption? 659 00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:47.720 Pretending that it's totally reciprocal is just a fallacy. Yeah. 660 00:28:47.900 --> 00:28:51.009 We really try to instill that in the team as well, 661 00:28:51.069 --> 00:28:54.309 that like we value them so much. We value their 662 00:28:54.329 --> 00:28:57.950 time with us, but equally... We try to have very 663 00:28:58.029 --> 00:29:00.450 firm boundaries with when they're not at work, they are 664 00:29:00.529 --> 00:29:01.170 not at work. 665 00:29:01.769 --> 00:29:04.130 Yeah. I mean, because it's important to me. That's hard 666 00:29:04.150 --> 00:29:06.630 in media too. And I want to live a life 667 00:29:06.670 --> 00:29:09.720 where I have balance. And I also want to lead 668 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:11.680 a team where I'm not a hypocrite, that if I 669 00:29:11.740 --> 00:29:14.740 want something myself, I expect they probably want the same 670 00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:17.859 thing so that that flows down. No, I totally get that. 671 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:19.819 And what I also really appreciate about the way that 672 00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:22.960 you speak about what you aspire to in your lives too. 673 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:26.819 And this past year... You spoke, I think, for the. 674 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:31.799 First time about financials behind the podcast, behind the company 675 00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.589 as a whole in a Forbes article. You spoke about 676 00:29:34.630 --> 00:29:37.009 how you were very excitingly on track to have an 677 00:29:37.109 --> 00:29:38.329 eight-figure AUD year. 678 00:29:38.369 --> 00:29:41.400 Yeah. um and doing. 679 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:46.099 The maths I read it first and then I like 680 00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.230 read the number and I was like perfect six-figure and 681 00:29:48.250 --> 00:29:49.029 then I was like. 682 00:29:49.049 --> 00:29:51.630 Wait a second you've said in the past that you've 683 00:29:51.650 --> 00:29:55.569 always been resisted to share those yeah yeah why do 684 00:29:55.609 --> 00:29:58.529 you think that's been I think probably two pronged. I 685 00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:01.549 think in the early days, people would say shameless media 686 00:30:01.589 --> 00:30:03.869 revenue and think that's going straight into Michelle and Zara's pockets. 687 00:30:04.769 --> 00:30:06.769 And I was always troubled by that because as much 688 00:30:06.809 --> 00:30:10.230 as you own the company, it never quite worked like that. 689 00:30:10.289 --> 00:30:13.509 Like everything was constantly being reinvested because we've been bootstrapped 690 00:30:13.529 --> 00:30:15.470 from the start to kind of grow the company. And 691 00:30:15.509 --> 00:30:17.529 so that was always a concern for both of us. 692 00:30:18.589 --> 00:30:20.509 And then we got to a certain size where I 693 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:23.640 we really felt people can see how many people we 694 00:30:23.700 --> 00:30:25.980 employ here. They understand there has to be significant revenue 695 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.019 coming in the door to be able to pay all 696 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:31.440 these people. But second to that, I just think being 697 00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:37.309 a public podcast host and being a business owner are 698 00:30:37.509 --> 00:30:42.150 not great jobs that kind of align very well. And 699 00:30:42.349 --> 00:30:44.390 we always really struggled with the person that we are 700 00:30:44.490 --> 00:30:47.109 on the podcast is absolutely 100% who we are, but 701 00:30:47.130 --> 00:30:48.589 the person we are running the business is also 100% 702 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:51.309 who we are. They just You might see different versions 703 00:30:51.349 --> 00:30:54.309 of us in those two contexts. And it was really 704 00:30:54.329 --> 00:30:56.569 the podcast that we were worried about, which was like, 705 00:30:56.890 --> 00:30:59.509 this podcast is so important to us. It's the best 706 00:30:59.549 --> 00:31:01.690 part of our job. But I just didn't know how 707 00:31:01.730 --> 00:31:02.349 it was going to last. 708 00:31:02.450 --> 00:31:04.970 Well, it's like, how likable are we if we're seen 709 00:31:05.109 --> 00:31:10.970 to be doing well financially? I think last year, we 710 00:31:11.009 --> 00:31:13.089 really made the decision to get out of our own way. 711 00:31:13.130 --> 00:31:14.930 And I think this is something we've really embraced in 712 00:31:14.950 --> 00:31:17.700 our 30s. In our 20s, I think we got in 713 00:31:17.740 --> 00:31:20.700 our own way a lot. And we put a lot 714 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:24.670 of ceilings on ourselves. I think we've been through some 715 00:31:24.730 --> 00:31:27.569 life shit. Like I lost my mum last year. Zara 716 00:31:28.029 --> 00:31:30.250 went through a period where her family member was very, 717 00:31:30.269 --> 00:31:32.930 very unwell in the ICU. Like we've dealt with some shit. 718 00:31:32.970 --> 00:31:35.259 And I think we kind of through all of that 719 00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:38.180 were like, well, if we can't celebrate the things that 720 00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:41.740 are going well and we can't celebrate our successes, Like why, 721 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:44.990 like who for and why would we try and cover 722 00:31:45.009 --> 00:31:46.730 that up? I think we're at a place now where 723 00:31:46.769 --> 00:31:49.589 we are proud of ourselves and we have built something 724 00:31:49.609 --> 00:31:51.109 that we're pretty excited by. 725 00:31:51.509 --> 00:31:53.789 And I think we've been able to own the idea, 726 00:31:54.029 --> 00:31:57.319 confidently own the idea that it's not super common in 727 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:00.339

Australian media in particular to do this independently by yourself 728 00:32:00.380 --> 00:32:03.019 with no experience or no backing. Like that's not an 729 00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:06.380 easy thing to do and it is not the hardest 730 00:32:06.420 --> 00:32:08.309 job in the world, but there are some pretty hard 731 00:32:08.349 --> 00:32:12.059 days doing it. And it's important for us. I think 732 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:14.519 so often people say, are you celebrating your wins? And 733 00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:17.000 so often I'm like, what does this even mean? Does 734 00:32:17.019 --> 00:32:18.579 it just mean like going out and getting drunk every 735 00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:20.779 time something happens? But I think celebrating your wins is 736 00:32:20.819 --> 00:32:23.660 also being loud about that. This was celebrating our win. 737 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:25.400 I think that's what it is. Also, it all might 738 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:27.660 fall apart one day. I think we're looking at each other. 739 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:31.509 That was a huge part. This might fall apart. Anxiety. 740 00:32:31.769 --> 00:32:34.450 Anxiety and insecurity is the title of the episode. But 741 00:32:34.490 --> 00:32:35.829 I think if we looked at each other, we're like, 742 00:32:36.269 --> 00:32:40.299 if this falls apart, because a lot of businesses– you know, fizzle. 743 00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:41.680 They go out with a fizzle instead of a bang. 744 00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:42.799 Especially in media. 745 00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:43.099 Yeah. 746 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.700 Things can change like that. Say we fizzle. 747 00:32:45.250 --> 00:32:46.930 We would kind of like people to know that this 748 00:32:46.970 --> 00:32:48.529 was a roaring success for a time. 749 00:32:48.730 --> 00:32:50.549 It might not be a roaring success forever. I would 750 00:32:50.589 --> 00:32:51.289 love it to be. 751 00:32:51.769 --> 00:32:53.730 But I would love for people to look back. I'd 752 00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:55.470 love for my daughter to look back. It was also 753 00:32:55.490 --> 00:32:57.930 having a child. I was like, I want Sadie to 754 00:32:57.970 --> 00:33:00.539 look back at this thing her mum did and went, whoa, 755 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:03.359 like my mum did that. That's so cool. And if 756 00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:05.099 we don't have headlines like the one we did in 757 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:06.460 the Australian Financial Review. 758 00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:11.390 We don't have proof. No one will believe us. I'm 759 00:33:11.430 --> 00:33:15.609 just like saying we don't believe you. Yeah, literally. But 760 00:33:15.630 --> 00:33:16.690 I think it's really interesting. 761 00:33:16.710 --> 00:33:18.970 And I think it's such a predicament that we're not 762 00:33:19.009 --> 00:33:22.069 necessarily prepared to think of because it's not something that's 763 00:33:22.109 --> 00:33:25.380 been necessarily had to be thought of in the past. 764 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:27.519 And I say that for two reasons. First of all, 765 00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:30.779 social media and like being the face of things is 766 00:33:30.819 --> 00:33:33.819 quite new. So needing to think about your perception on 767 00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:36.119 all different fronts in terms of like how you then 768 00:33:36.339 --> 00:33:40.000 earn when your perception is changed is important. On the 769 00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:44.109 other side, since women have started to become more successful, 770 00:33:44.789 --> 00:33:49.390 like you saying there, for example, there's a perhaps when 771 00:33:49.430 --> 00:33:52.109 we would talk about how successful we are, it's not 772 00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:53.869 going to help what we're actually doing. 773 00:33:54.329 --> 00:33:55.210 Whereas that is a. 774 00:33:55.210 --> 00:33:59.099 Completely inverse correlation to how it is for I'm thinking 775 00:33:59.130 --> 00:34:02.000 of like big male influencers or male podcasters. 776 00:34:02.380 --> 00:34:05.259 Like it is purely celebrated. It's better for Stephen Bartlett's 777 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.900 show that he, his business is fine. Exactly. 778 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:09.820 Like if it's earning a certain amount a year, it 779 00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:10.940 must be good. 780 00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:15.000 It's been co-signed. People must like you. Well, it's legitimate. Exactly. 781 00:34:15.820 --> 00:34:20.449 Whereas that we know success and likability have an inverse 782 00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:21.469 correlation for women. 783 00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:23.110 Like it's literally been proven. 784 00:34:23.630 --> 00:34:27.190 So naturally it's a little bit, bit tough that when 785 00:34:27.210 --> 00:34:29.949 you get to that stage like tiny violin is obviously 786 00:34:29.989 --> 00:34:31.900 not the biggest problem in the world but like when 787 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.679 you get to that stage when it's kind of like 788 00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:38.940 okay in order to celebrate the success even by not 789 00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:43.010 even celebrating just talking about it I have to potentially 790 00:34:43.090 --> 00:34:46.170 compromise how much people like me because the thing that 791 00:34:46.210 --> 00:34:49.170 they already liked me for other people also like me 792 00:34:49.250 --> 00:34:52.250 for and is therefore doing well like it's it's a 793 00:34:52.309 --> 00:34:54.869 massive mindfuck And you have to have a pretty innate 794 00:34:54.989 --> 00:34:57.400 ability to like understand and process it. 795 00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.960 Well, we had a back and forth last year about this. 796 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:04.360 Zara was more pro sharing the number and I was 797 00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:05.320 reticent for a time. 798 00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:08.179 Do you remember this? Yeah, I'm pretty sure we recorded. 799 00:35:08.429 --> 00:35:10.510 We did a voice memo of it because we were 800 00:35:10.550 --> 00:35:12.630

halfway through this conversation. We're like, this might make for 801 00:35:12.670 --> 00:35:15.110 interesting content one day if we ever do more about this. 802 00:35:15.150 --> 00:35:17.750 So maybe that voice memo will one day... See the 803 00:35:17.769 --> 00:35:22.130 latter day. But I was really anxious. And I said 804 00:35:22.150 --> 00:35:23.889 to Zaz, I was like, this is going to make 805 00:35:23.949 --> 00:35:27.739 life harder for us. But I'm so glad that she 806 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.739 talked to me around because I have decided it's unfortunate 807 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:36.679 that women have to give up some likability score as 808 00:35:36.739 --> 00:35:37.690 part of showing the success. 809 00:35:37.750 --> 00:35:39.570 Very small target on your back. I don't want to 810 00:35:39.610 --> 00:35:43.309 infestate it. And I don't, again, tiny violin. But it's 811 00:35:43.530 --> 00:35:46.809 definitely in a... There's a maths equation you have to 812 00:35:46.849 --> 00:35:49.389 look at and say, okay, we do this. You'll probably 813 00:35:49.429 --> 00:35:53.510 experience X and Y. Some, like, criticism will probably be 814 00:35:53.989 --> 00:35:58.710 a little strongly, more strongly worded. It'll be pricklier. You 815 00:35:58.730 --> 00:36:01.489 won't be able to kind of– it's impossible to qualify, 816 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:03.579 I think, as it's all happening, what that criticism looks like. 817 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:05.340 It probably won't happen in the short term. But you 818 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:07.380 have to acknowledge that that's the payoff. And we were like, 819 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:07.780 that's fine. 820 00:36:08.139 --> 00:36:10.360 I'm really happy we did it. I'm so happy we 821 00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:11.440 did it. I think it was one of the best 822 00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:13.320 decisions we've actually made. And it was off the back 823 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:18.909 of Zara motivating– me to want to do it as well. Um, I, yeah, 824 00:36:18.989 --> 00:36:22.510 I sew back that decision, but I think it does 825 00:36:22.610 --> 00:36:23.630 come with a small cost. 826 00:36:23.750 --> 00:36:26.219 But I have to say as much as that conversation 827 00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:28.260 is interesting, I should go find that voice note after 828 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.599 we leave here. Um, it was like probably a year 829 00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:32.480 ago now, but I do think what was huge for 830 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:35.880 me is when you spoke about having Sadie and being like, 831 00:36:36.579 --> 00:36:38.840 I now, I really want her to see this. That 832 00:36:38.889 --> 00:36:41.070 was like very impactful for me. I don't have kids. 833 00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:43.280 but I think being able to have that framing, I 834 00:36:43.300 --> 00:36:46.219 could piggyback off her being a parent and be like, yeah, 835 00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:49.039 that is like, I do want her to see you 836 00:36:49.059 --> 00:36:51.500 do that and me too. And I think that's like 837 00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:53.840 a really nice framing that kind of centers everything to 838 00:36:53.860 --> 00:36:55.880 be like, we're not on a mission to change the 839 00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:58.360 world by any stretch, but it is nice to be like, well, 840 00:36:58.389 --> 00:36:59.389 we're trying to do something. 841 00:36:59.650 --> 00:36:59.829 Yeah. 842 00:37:00.190 --> 00:37:03.710 I think it's one of those tangible ways. 843 00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:05.730 I think you hear women speak about having children and 844 00:37:05.769 --> 00:37:08.250 how it maybe brings things into sharper focus. And that 845 00:37:08.289 --> 00:37:11.489 always felt amorphous for me until I've became a mum myself. 846 00:37:11.929 --> 00:37:15.079 It's been really helpful having a child to have that perspective. 847 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:18.099 I think it helps you put your big girl pants 848 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.079 on a little bit to be like, okay, yeah, we 849 00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.880 might cop it a little bit or people might have 850 00:37:22.900 --> 00:37:25.059 a slight target on our back if we share this. 851 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:28.110 But the bigger picture of it all is my child 852 00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:31.090 will one day see it and I want it out 853 00:37:31.130 --> 00:37:31.829 there for me. 854 00:37:32.110 --> 00:37:32.929 Like I want it out there. 855 00:37:33.010 --> 00:37:34.909 I want to be able to feel like all of 856 00:37:34.989 --> 00:37:38.190 the weekends we worked eight years ago and All of 857 00:37:38.269 --> 00:37:41.309 the tears that have been cried behind closed doors. 858 00:37:41.949 --> 00:37:44.869 Which has not even been in building it. Even all 859 00:37:44.909 --> 00:37:47.849 of the fun times, it's led to something amazing. And 860 00:37:47.869 --> 00:37:49.929 that's incredible. 861 00:37:50.170 --> 00:37:52.489 That's not fucking easy. It's not done all the time. 862 00:37:52.909 --> 00:37:58.550 It hasn't been easy. It's been quite difficult. More tears. 863 00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:01.769 Let it all out. Come on. But to the point 864 00:38:01.789 --> 00:38:04.030 that Michelle made really early in this chat, it's like, 865 00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:07.210 I wouldn't go back and change it. I think it's 866 00:38:07.269 --> 00:38:10.960 fundamentally changed who we are and how I present to 867 00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:13.380 the world. I am so much tougher. I think we 868 00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:17.130 both have a really strong ability to compartmentalize. emotion from 869 00:38:17.170 --> 00:38:20.090 pragmatism when we're making decisions. We also really know ourselves, 870 00:38:20.190 --> 00:38:22.610 I would say. Yeah, we have a very strong sense 871 00:38:22.650 --> 00:38:25.269 of self and a sense of self together. I don't 872 00:38:25.289 --> 00:38:27.670 know what that is. We have been told we're a 873 00:38:27.690 --> 00:38:30.389 little

collective self. Yeah, a sense of collective self. We 874 00:38:30.429 --> 00:38:32.730 really know who we are as well and have any value. 875 00:38:32.750 --> 00:38:34.429 And I think, like, I wouldn't change that in the 876 00:38:34.449 --> 00:38:37.250 same way I imagine you wouldn't either. It really depends 877 00:38:37.289 --> 00:38:40.289 on the day you ask someone. Honestly, ask me yesterday. Yeah, 878 00:38:40.309 --> 00:38:41.449 ask me today. It's fine. 879 00:38:41.469 --> 00:38:43.949 Yeah. And I guess along with that, I mean, it's 880 00:38:44.050 --> 00:38:47.719 definitely a wider... worldwide problem I think especially with all 881 00:38:47.739 --> 00:38:50.159 the barriers being broken down through social media like you're 882 00:38:50.179 --> 00:38:53.989 gonna face this wherever but I've heard a lot about 883 00:38:54.050 --> 00:38:57.650 Australia and tall poppy syndrome oh do you think that's 884 00:38:57.789 --> 00:39:02.030 been exacerbated here as like a homegrown talent because in 885 00:39:02.070 --> 00:39:04.469 the US I don't think a lot of the things 886 00:39:04.489 --> 00:39:06.869 that we've spoken about are actually the same and I 887 00:39:06.909 --> 00:39:09.500 think the UK and Australia might have some parallels here 888 00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:11.519 that is so interesting. 889 00:39:11.530 --> 00:39:14.760 I think the UK and Australia are not dissimilar for 890 00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.039 sure because I think a lot of people talk about 891 00:39:17.139 --> 00:39:19.219 quote unquote tall poppy, which is the idea that when 892 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.519 someone does really well, people support them until they get 893 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:23.860 to a certain point and then they want to rip 894 00:39:23.909 --> 00:39:24.329 them down. 895 00:39:24.530 --> 00:39:26.130 Well, it's definitely an attitude of don't get too big 896 00:39:26.150 --> 00:39:26.590 for your boots. 897 00:39:26.710 --> 00:39:30.570 Yeah, like stay humble. Yeah. Which I think humility is important. 898 00:39:30.969 --> 00:39:33.349 And also leads to better humour, I would say. Yeah. 899 00:39:33.469 --> 00:39:37.530 I mean, as well, like we could complain about being 900 00:39:37.570 --> 00:39:39.409 victims of tall puppy here and there, but I think 901 00:39:39.429 --> 00:39:41.949 we're also perpetrators of tall puppy when we were younger. 902 00:39:41.969 --> 00:39:44.210 I agree. I remember we did a whole podcast episode 903 00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:47.789 where we said the worst thing a person could. 904 00:39:47.690 --> 00:39:48.510 Be is arrogance. 905 00:39:49.110 --> 00:39:51.690 Right. Which I'm like, that is so interesting looking back 906 00:39:51.750 --> 00:39:54.389 on 24-year-old us to be like, why is that the 907 00:39:54.409 --> 00:39:55.389 worst thing someone can be? 908 00:39:55.429 --> 00:39:57.690 Don't get me wrong. Like, I love arrogance. 909 00:39:58.070 --> 00:40:00.190 But I think that was maybe tall poppy syndrome coming 910 00:40:00.250 --> 00:40:00.769 out in us. 911 00:40:00.809 --> 00:40:05.690 I would prefer someone not to be mean. Yeah, just malicious. Yeah, 912 00:40:05.789 --> 00:40:10.050 I definitely. No, arrogance was. Arrogance, murder. Yeah. I think 913 00:40:10.070 --> 00:40:11.780 you're right. I think when we were in our early 20s, 914 00:40:11.769 --> 00:40:16.150 we definitely, definitely were perpetrators of it. I think, yes, 915 00:40:16.210 --> 00:40:19.309 to some degree. It is slightly different. But then you 916 00:40:19.369 --> 00:40:20.909 have to look at, I mean, I even look at 917 00:40:20.949 --> 00:40:23.909 Alex Cooper and I would say she still does experience 918 00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:25.289 some of those things as well. 919 00:40:25.849 --> 00:40:27.889 Oh, the amount of commentary out there that Alex Cooper 920 00:40:27.909 --> 00:40:30.070 actually isn't good at her job despite her being one 921 00:40:30.110 --> 00:40:31.929 of the biggest podcasters in the entire world. 922 00:40:31.949 --> 00:40:34.489 It's quite physically impossible that she wouldn't be. Yeah, it's 923 00:40:34.510 --> 00:40:36.719 kind of a ridiculous. No one's paying her. But that's 924 00:40:36.739 --> 00:40:37.010 the thing. 925 00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:38.659 Like if someone was behind the scenes doing that and 926 00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:40.300 said that other person would be getting that. 927 00:40:40.900 --> 00:40:43.280 Well, no one's forcing hundreds of millions of people to 928 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:45.800 listen to that show. So it's like an interesting conversation 929 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:47.199 to even see out there, to be like, well, she's 930 00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:48.809 terrible at it. I'm like, well, I guess she's not 931 00:40:48.849 --> 00:40:50.809 for you. She doesn't need to be for everyone. 932 00:40:50.909 --> 00:40:53.409 But she is for most people at this point in time, 933 00:40:53.429 --> 00:40:57.289 no matter how many listeners she has. So it's funny. 934 00:40:57.329 --> 00:40:59.309 I wonder if tall puppy syndrome is spreading to the 935 00:40:59.429 --> 00:41:00.949 US with that information. 936 00:41:01.030 --> 00:41:01.690 Is it everywhere? 937 00:41:01.730 --> 00:41:04.309 I think it's with something like that, I think when 938 00:41:04.349 --> 00:41:08.230 you reach certain heights, when you're like tall poppy becomes 939 00:41:08.269 --> 00:41:11.539 a thing because the the arena becomes smaller if that 940 00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:14.340 makes sense like we I think particularly when we see 941 00:41:14.420 --> 00:41:18.489 women or anyone actually traverse or kind of like go 942 00:41:18.550 --> 00:41:22.090 beyond a certain boundary that we'd maybe internally put in 943 00:41:22.139 --> 00:41:24.539 place for them. And it starts to feel a little 944 00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:27.639 bit uncomfortable. It's like our imposter syndrome for them. It's like, well, 945 00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:30.300 they must be

an imposter because I can't, I couldn't 946 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:31.119 originally envision them. 947 00:41:31.139 --> 00:41:33.559 We've never seen that before. Yeah. The other part of 948 00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:37.599 this though is I don't think it's that interesting to 949 00:41:37.699 --> 00:41:39.760 people because I think, and that is to your point 950 00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:42.159 earlier when we were like, we probably, you know, perpetrated 951 00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:44.679 some tall poppy stuff when we were younger. Yeah. Because 952 00:41:44.739 --> 00:41:46.119 I think if I heard people talk about it, I'd 953 00:41:46.139 --> 00:41:48.420 be like, okay, Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 954 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:51.219 tiniest violin. Yeah, like I don't know. And it doesn't 955 00:41:51.260 --> 00:41:54.570 make it right or that generally people should have to 956 00:41:54.610 --> 00:41:58.570 just like withstand it. But it is interesting to consider 957 00:41:58.590 --> 00:42:00.329 that to the average person they might be like, well, 958 00:42:00.349 --> 00:42:03.050 isn't that just, you know, you see that classic line 959 00:42:03.710 --> 00:42:05.849 thrown around on social media all the time. I guess 960 00:42:05.909 --> 00:42:07.730 if you're looking at like a famous actor who's complaining 961 00:42:07.750 --> 00:42:09.170 about the paparazzi and they're like, well, they signed up 962 00:42:09.190 --> 00:42:11.349 for this. You'll see that all the time. They signed 963 00:42:11.369 --> 00:42:13.010 up for this. And as much as I don't know 964 00:42:13.070 --> 00:42:15.840 if I necessarily believe that I understand where that ethos 965 00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:16.590 comes from. Yeah. 966 00:42:17.090 --> 00:42:20.489 I mean, it's similar to the imposter syndrome conversation when 967 00:42:20.889 --> 00:42:22.710 I feel like I get asked a lot, particularly in 968 00:42:22.750 --> 00:42:26.489 like corporate settings, like how do you deal with imposter syndrome? 969 00:42:26.550 --> 00:42:28.219 Like if you are in a role and you're feeling 970 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:29.920 it strongly, I'm kind of. 971 00:42:29.860 --> 00:42:31.780 Like, well, I think there are two sides of things. 972 00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:34.099 I think the first side is that most of the. 973 00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:37.159 Time people have imposter syndrome when the workplace doesn't reflect that. 974 00:42:37.460 --> 00:42:40.489 themselves so naturally like when things haven't been so diverse 975 00:42:40.699 --> 00:42:42.969 or you know there haven't been so many women in 976 00:42:43.030 --> 00:42:44.679 a space or whatever you're naturally going to feel it 977 00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:46.809 and that's probably on the workplace rather than on you 978 00:42:46.829 --> 00:42:49.630 I think the second half of that is like well 979 00:42:49.650 --> 00:42:52.510 realistically that's probably a good thermostat for the fact that 980 00:42:52.530 --> 00:42:55.070 you're out of your comfort zone and actually if you're 981 00:42:55.130 --> 00:42:58.210 not having imposter syndrome then maybe you should be pushing 982 00:42:58.250 --> 00:43:00.849 yourself a bit harder or maybe you feel too comfortable 983 00:43:00.889 --> 00:43:04.030 for too long and maybe then it's like as you're 984 00:43:04.050 --> 00:43:05.889 kind of saying it's like yeah maybe tall poppy is 985 00:43:05.929 --> 00:43:09.989 a thing But realistically, I'd rather be here being able 986 00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:12.380 to shout about things and maybe be brought down for them. 987 00:43:12.429 --> 00:43:12.760 Exactly. 988 00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:14.519 If you give me the option to be like, hey, 989 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.519 this thing will do well enough that you might experience 990 00:43:17.539 --> 00:43:20.099 tall puppy or it won't do well enough and you'll 991 00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:21.090 never experience tall puppy. 992 00:43:21.130 --> 00:43:23.130 I know which one I'm picking. Exactly. It's fine. Exactly. 993 00:43:23.150 --> 00:43:24.989 You can't really, you cannot have your cake and eat 994 00:43:25.010 --> 00:43:26.110 it too. Like it's, it's. 995 00:43:27.429 --> 00:43:28.929 We also have a very thick skin by this point. 996 00:43:29.170 --> 00:43:32.489 Like we know the number of perks we get being 997 00:43:32.530 --> 00:43:36.500 in our position. You cannot redeem those perks without also 998 00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:37.760 taking certain downsides. 999 00:43:37.780 --> 00:43:39.590 What is it like the price of admission? Mm-hmm. 1000 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.760 Is that Brené Brown saying embarrassment is the price of admission? 1001 00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:44.949 Don't know. But I think it worked. I saw it. 1002 00:43:44.980 --> 00:43:46.500 To be honest, I actually did think it worked. It 1003 00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:49.179 computed well in my head actually immediately. It's like the 1004 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:50.440 price of doing business, baby. 1005 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:53.659 Yeah, it is. It is the price of being public-facing. 1006 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.329 And if you want, you cannot sit around crying about it, 1007 00:43:56.340 --> 00:44:00.440 even though maybe lots of you are. But you cannot 1008 00:44:00.460 --> 00:44:01.179 complain about that. 1009 00:44:01.340 --> 00:44:03.659 Okay, so I think that an added layer that you 1010 00:44:03.699 --> 00:44:05.860 guys have on top of this that maybe is why 1011 00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:07.940 you've had to face it so head-on over and over 1012 00:44:07.960 --> 00:44:09.260 is that. 1013 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:12.960 Your day-to-day job is about... You've got to give a 1014 00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.500 lot of opinions. Yeah. Like, I hear your opinions on 1015 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.840 a lot of things all the time. Yeah. Likely more 1016 00:44:17.860 --> 00:44:20.019 than most people who actually subscribe to me. 1017 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:23.489 So if

that's the case, like, you can't actually concentrate 1018 00:44:23.610 --> 00:44:25.210 too much on being palatable. 1019 00:44:25.230 --> 00:44:25.289 No. 1020 00:44:25.710 --> 00:44:28.989 Like, if you concentrated too much on being palatable... you 1021 00:44:29.070 --> 00:44:31.070 probably wouldn't be that enjoyable to listen to. And I'm 1022 00:44:31.130 --> 00:44:34.079 not saying that as like, I don't think you're very controversial. 1023 00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:36.960 Like I think that generally like you, I agree with 1024 00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:39.199 your opinions and I'm never like, whoa, like that was 1025 00:44:39.219 --> 00:44:39.880 shaking the boat. 1026 00:44:40.059 --> 00:44:43.159 If we said the thing that everybody expected us to 1027 00:44:43.219 --> 00:44:45.260 always say or what the internet was saying, it would 1028 00:44:45.300 --> 00:44:46.519 be a very boring show. 1029 00:44:46.619 --> 00:44:50.559 And it was between the years of 2020 and 2022. 1030 00:44:50.539 --> 00:44:52.679 I think it did become a more boring show because 1031 00:44:52.699 --> 00:44:55.289 we felt we felt like we had to say the 1032 00:44:55.309 --> 00:44:57.630 thing people wanted us to say, which was just getting 1033 00:44:57.650 --> 00:44:58.989 the job so backwards. 1034 00:44:59.010 --> 00:44:59.389 Yeah. 1035 00:44:59.889 --> 00:45:02.429 I really want someone to listen now and to hear 1036 00:45:02.510 --> 00:45:05.409 either of us say something and think, huh, that's really surprising. 1037 00:45:05.949 --> 00:45:09.929 Not offensive or controversial. I'm just like, oh, that is surprising. Yes. 1038 00:45:09.949 --> 00:45:12.300 I'm fine with being controversial if I genuinely think it. 1039 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.960 I think sometimes we'll be controversial because sometimes we see 1040 00:45:14.980 --> 00:45:17.920 an algorithm take off where we watch on and we're like, 1041 00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:20.659 holy shit, like there's such group think. 1042 00:45:20.500 --> 00:45:22.440 Going on here and we just totally disagree. 1043 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:25.449 So if that's an opportunity for us to be quote 1044 00:45:25.489 --> 00:45:29.849 unquote controversial, I'll 100% take it. But I think by 1045 00:45:29.869 --> 00:45:33.389 this point, we've just so removed a lot of the 1046 00:45:33.469 --> 00:45:35.829 emotion out of it. Like I just don't, I think 1047 00:45:35.889 --> 00:45:37.880 I used to move through the world and I wanted 1048 00:45:37.929 --> 00:45:40.800 people to really, really like me. And if they didn't 1049 00:45:40.860 --> 00:45:44.340 like me, that really affected how I go about my day. 1050 00:45:44.900 --> 00:45:46.599 It doesn't really anymore. 1051 00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:50.000 Like it's important to me that people respect us and, 1052 00:45:50.059 --> 00:45:53.079 you know, some people like us. Yeah. But the idea 1053 00:45:53.139 --> 00:45:55.820 that everyone would think I'm their cup of tea is 1054 00:45:55.860 --> 00:45:57.380 just like a ridiculous standard. 1055 00:45:57.639 --> 00:46:00.099 Also pretty self-indulgent when you think about it because I 1056 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:02.519 think I was more of that than you. I think 1057 00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:04.679 I was like more like, oh, my God, I really 1058 00:46:04.699 --> 00:46:06.449 need to be like– and I must be doing something 1059 00:46:06.469 --> 00:46:08.320 wrong if I'm not– But the more time that went on, 1060 00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:10.230 I was like, just get the fuck over yourself. 1061 00:46:10.289 --> 00:46:10.630 Yeah. 1062 00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:12.269 It's like you're thinking of it. It's that thing where 1063 00:46:12.289 --> 00:46:13.550 it's like, I think you guys are thinking about yourself 1064 00:46:13.570 --> 00:46:15.769 too much. I feel that. 1065 00:46:15.789 --> 00:46:19.050 And I honestly, I feel like maybe everyone in this 1066 00:46:19.090 --> 00:46:21.349 position has like felt it lifting over a period of 1067 00:46:21.409 --> 00:46:23.650 time when you've realized like either I could be the 1068 00:46:23.710 --> 00:46:27.090 most palatable version of myself and also be like boring 1069 00:46:27.150 --> 00:46:30.780 as fuck and like not enjoyable to consume any content of. 1070 00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:32.360 Like I'm not saying you need to be super controversial, 1071 00:46:32.380 --> 00:46:35.599 but like owning what you actually believe Like, I strongly 1072 00:46:35.619 --> 00:46:37.559 believe now, if I say something, as you said, and 1073 00:46:37.579 --> 00:46:40.400 I strongly believe it and you disagree with me, that's fine. 1074 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:42.519 Just as if we were at dinner and you disagreed, 1075 00:46:42.820 --> 00:46:44.699 we could have a conversation about it. You're not going 1076 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:46.800 to fucking shoot me in the face. 1077 00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:48.409 Like, no one's crying. 1078 00:46:48.610 --> 00:46:50.530 But I think the internet is very bad at having 1079 00:46:50.550 --> 00:46:53.289 these nuanced conversations, which is why I respect so much 1080 00:46:53.730 --> 00:46:58.269 that actually your entire platform is based on nuanced conversations 1081 00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:01.619 because actually that's what long form is for. Like, you're 1082 00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:03.960 able to, every single week, on a number. 1083 00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:04.659 Of different topics. 1084 00:47:04.949 --> 00:47:08.929 have conversations where the answer, like the objective isn't, you 1085 00:47:08.949 --> 00:47:11.630 should listen to this podcast and agree with us on everything. 1086 00:47:12.010 --> 00:47:13.909 It's you can listen to this podcast and listen to 1087 00:47:13.929 --> 00:47:14.969 people having a discussion. 1088 00:47:14.989 --> 00:47:17.889 Well, it's the unpacking, right? Like I really enjoy is 1089 00:47:18.110 --> 00:47:21.039 actually more than arriving at an opinion. It's like teasing 1090

00:47:21.099 --> 00:47:23.719 something out and figuring out where I stand on it. 1091 00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:28.480 Yes. And also it always surprised me how often, and 1092 00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:31.199 I think this still happens, we get the feedback, which is, 1093 00:47:32.050 --> 00:47:34.670 I love how often you disagree with each other or 1094 00:47:34.710 --> 00:47:37.909 it's like unique that we spend time disagreeing with each 1095 00:47:37.949 --> 00:47:41.190 other on mic. And I was always like, we do 1096 00:47:41.230 --> 00:47:43.239 this all the time with people in our lives, that 1097 00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:45.940 just having conversations about things, it is like really natural 1098 00:47:45.980 --> 00:47:48.619 to disagree. It's to your point, Grace, like it's not 1099 00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:50.590 always natural. It's ever very personal. 1100 00:47:50.630 --> 00:47:51.030 No. 1101 00:47:51.190 --> 00:47:53.780 It's not personal. Like, to have different opinions on things 1102 00:47:53.860 --> 00:47:55.510 is genuinely very interesting to me. 1103 00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:58.079 But that's exactly why, I mean, obviously there's many reasons 1104 00:47:58.119 --> 00:47:59.579 you guys have done well, but I think that's one 1105 00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:03.480 of the, like, the crux of the reason why Shameless 1106 00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:06.039 has done so well. is because it creates a forum 1107 00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:07.780 where you can do that, where it doesn't make it 1108 00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:08.429 a big deal. 1109 00:48:08.449 --> 00:48:10.309 Well, it's not that deep. 1110 00:48:10.449 --> 00:48:11.690 No, but that's the thing. 1111 00:48:11.730 --> 00:48:14.230 And I think that that's what we've actually lost through 1112 00:48:14.269 --> 00:48:19.010 social media, through most short form, because you disagree with 1113 00:48:19.050 --> 00:48:21.230 something in a second and suddenly it's the worst fucking 1114 00:48:21.250 --> 00:48:21.909 thing in the world. 1115 00:48:22.130 --> 00:48:24.889 Social media, like if you disagree with someone or like 1116 00:48:24.909 --> 00:48:27.050 you disagree with the pack, all of a sudden it's 1117 00:48:27.090 --> 00:48:30.389 an immediate moral failing, which is so hard to watch 1118 00:48:30.469 --> 00:48:32.829 play out. And I think that's why we love podcasting 1119 00:48:32.909 --> 00:48:34.130 so much that you actually. 1120 00:48:34.670 --> 00:48:36.110 can remove. 1121 00:48:35.670 --> 00:48:38.269 That like hot take culture out of it a bit 1122 00:48:38.289 --> 00:48:40.550 that you don't all have to agree a hundred percent 1123 00:48:40.590 --> 00:48:43.210 of the time and you can be an intelligent person 1124 00:48:43.269 --> 00:48:45.210 and have a different take to the pack yeah you. 1125 00:48:45.190 --> 00:48:47.449 Can also change your opinion in real time yeah like 1126 00:48:47.469 --> 00:48:49.119 the amount of times you sit there and still say 1127 00:48:49.159 -->

00:48:52.480 something that's so much smarter than anything i'm like i'll 1128 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:54.719 just jump on that thank you yeah i mean. 1129 00:48:54.539 --> 00:48:57.500 While i'm there having my walk being like yeah me 1130 00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.550 too but also like I think on social media, we've 1131 00:49:00.590 --> 00:49:03.199 lost the ability for someone to change their mind over time. 1132 00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.719 I hate more than anything this idea that because. 1133 00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:09.599 Someone said something five years ago, that is exactly how 1134 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:13.730 they think and feel today. Like we are all so 1135 00:49:14.530 --> 00:49:18.349 fallible and the idea on social media that that's not 1136 00:49:18.409 --> 00:49:20.920 the case. And if you say something, once, that's who 1137 00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:24.760 you are forever. I just so disagree with that. And 1138 00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:26.340 I think that's why Zara and I really love on 1139 00:49:26.380 --> 00:49:30.710 Shameless acknowledging to be like, oh, I really, really, really 1140 00:49:30.769 --> 00:49:31.929 disagree with my former self. 1141 00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:33.960 I disagree with it. 1142 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:38.880 Like, the shit I said at fucking 23, I had ridiculous. 1143 00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.300 Takes on something. We both had absurd takes. Ridiculous takes. 1144 00:49:41.320 --> 00:49:45.960 But even last year, like, if I'm hormonal, grumpy, having 1145 00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:48.500 a bad day with endometriosis, whatever it is, when I 1146 00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:49.519 was on IVF. 1147 00:49:49.179 --> 00:49:51.239 Hormones, I was, like, coming out with some stuff. Oh, 1148 00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.300 I can't fucking imagine. Like, I was having some takes 1149 00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:55.619 where I'm like, what the fuck? You did pregnancy without repeating. 1150 00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.320 It for a very fucking long time. I can't imagine 1151 00:49:57.340 --> 00:49:59.559 you did shit. Yeah, 30 weeks of recording without people 1152 00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:00.380 knowing I was pregnant. 1153 00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:02.900 I look back like even sometimes a week later. 1154 00:50:02.659 --> 00:50:04.539 In a better mood. I'm like, what was wrong with her? 1155 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.179 What's wrong with her? But we don't do that on social. Oh, 1156 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:08.650 I think that about myself yesterday. So it's a good 1157 00:50:08.670 --> 00:50:10.190 thing I wasn't online. 1158 00:50:10.750 --> 00:50:12.889 I want to kind of talk a little bit more 1159 00:50:12.929 --> 00:50:15.369 about the work kind of aspect that we talked about earlier, 1160 00:50:15.389 --> 00:50:18.210 because I think that that's really important and something that 1161 00:50:18.469 --> 00:50:22.179 I selfishly am very, very interested in. I noticed when 1162 00:50:22.219 --> 00:50:25.789 we were organizing the

podcast that in your email signatures, 1163 00:50:25.829 --> 00:50:28.170 you said specifically the days that you work and don't work. 1164 00:50:28.690 --> 00:50:32.530 And that to me, I was like, incredibly inspired by that. 1165 00:50:32.630 --> 00:50:34.690 I was like, because obviously you said at the beginning 1166 00:50:34.710 --> 00:50:37.889 of this year, you wanted to destroy. You also wanted 1167 00:50:37.929 --> 00:50:42.280 to go more part time and have more life around 1168 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:44.300 work and be more productive when you were in work 1169 00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:46.650 and all of these different things. As I've said, I 1170 00:50:47.110 --> 00:50:50.059 think that's a luxury that we don't necessarily afford ourselves. 1171 00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:52.639 And it is, I will also say, a luxury full stop. Like, 1172 00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:54.900 of course, the large majority of people have to work 1173 00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:57.920 full time. I think, though, that, like, even when you 1174 00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:00.719 don't have to, as I alluded to before, if you're 1175 00:51:00.739 --> 00:51:03.960 in a certain space maybe trying to prove yourself, one of. 1176 00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.900 The biggest ways that most people try and prove themselves 1177 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:08.480 is this hustle culture. 1178 00:51:08.820 --> 00:51:11.000 Like, working all the time, being seen to work all 1179 00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:14.699 the time, aspiring to work all the time. How has 1180 00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:16.920 that changed for you in terms of like how you've 1181 00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:19.420 been thinking about it? And what kind of gave you 1182 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:22.219 the confidence, I guess, to just be like, no, actually, 1183 00:51:22.739 --> 00:51:25.900 this is what I want. And therefore, as the owner 1184 00:51:25.940 --> 00:51:27.679 of this company, this is what. 1185 00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:29.409 I am going to go for. And it can be 1186 00:51:29.449 --> 00:51:31.190 both good for me and good for the company. I 1187 00:51:31.869 --> 00:51:34.969 think we both needed to fall back in love with 1188 00:51:35.030 --> 00:51:38.230 running the business again, to be totally candid. I think 1189 00:51:38.730 --> 00:51:41.349 after doing something for eight years, you get to a 1190 00:51:41.409 --> 00:51:44.800 point where... It takes a lot of you, as you 1191 00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:47.960 would know. And part of us going part time now 1192 00:51:48.059 --> 00:51:49.519 is like, I want to take some of the time 1193 00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:52.849 back that I gave in my 20s. So there was that. 1194 00:51:52.869 --> 00:51:57.349 I also just think I definitely feel better at my 1195 00:51:57.429 --> 00:52:00.369 job when I have space, like particularly the show. I 1196 00:52:00.869 --> 00:52:03.099 feel so much better at my job when I am 1197 00:52:03.179 --> 00:52:06.110 not the center of my world. And I think our 1198

00:52:06.150 --> 00:52:08.889 industry in particular can make us feel like we have 1199 00:52:08.929 --> 00:52:10.760 to be the center of everything and we're constantly thinking 1200 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:12.559 about ourselves or whatever it might be and spending time 1201 00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:14.880 outside of that where none of my friends, family work 1202 00:52:14.920 --> 00:52:17.980 in media. Day to day, like they may listen to 1203 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:20.360 the show. I don't know how many of them do, 1204 00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:24.250 but it's not that important. It's like it is important 1205 00:52:24.289 --> 00:52:25.690 to them, but it's like I think you can kind 1206 00:52:25.710 --> 00:52:27.630 of get into a bit of a bubble. Yeah. Spending 1207 00:52:27.650 --> 00:52:31.690 more time outside that bubble is much better for my 1208 00:52:31.730 --> 00:52:32.690 day to day in the show as well. 1209 00:52:32.929 --> 00:52:33.110 Yeah. 1210 00:52:33.469 --> 00:52:34.590 I think we're the exact same. 1211 00:52:34.630 --> 00:52:36.489 It's actually been Zaz as well who's brought in a 1212 00:52:36.510 --> 00:52:38.510 lot of those boundaries because I think I can be 1213 00:52:38.550 --> 00:52:41.170 similar to you, Grace. I just want to tip so 1214 00:52:41.250 --> 00:52:44.510 far in. Have you done the Enneagram? Oh, yeah. 1215 00:52:44.550 --> 00:52:47.239 I actually think we're the same. Are you a three? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 1216 00:52:47.260 --> 00:52:50.440 There we go. Which, what should we call it? 16 personalities, 1217 00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:54.099 are you? Yes. Oh, so 16 personalities. I am an ENFJ. 1218 00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:55.400 Same. Okay, great. 1219 00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.190 I haven't done that one yet. My experience for those 1220 00:52:58.269 --> 00:52:59.809 of you who are recording, we ever do. 1221 00:52:59.909 --> 00:53:01.650 So for those who have no idea what we're talking about, 1222 00:53:01.670 --> 00:53:05.179 the Enneagram is almost like your working style. So Grace 1223 00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:07.280 and I are three. We're competitive achievers. 1224 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:10.480 Zara's an eight. She's an active controller. It's not hot. 1225 00:53:11.750 --> 00:53:14.090 It sounds like you, like, make sure trains go where 1226 00:53:14.110 --> 00:53:14.789 they're meant to go. 1227 00:53:14.809 --> 00:53:18.480 Oh, yeah. That and just, like, the dictator. 1228 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:22.579 But VAR is amazing to work with because I have 1229 00:53:22.619 --> 00:53:26.320 that competitive achiever side of myself where so much of 1230 00:53:26.389 --> 00:53:28.670 my life, I mean, it doesn't sound very sexy or... 1231 00:53:29.369 --> 00:53:32.389 progressive I'm obsessed with metrics in my own life like 1232 00:53:32.510 --> 00:53:34.809 optics of success are a big thing to me as 1233 00:53:34.949 --> 00:53:38.400 hideous as that is working with Zaz is so amazing 1234 00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:43.440 because Zara really prioritizes process and boundaries and am I 1235 00:53:43.500 --> 00:53:47.739 missing a time time and efficiency and I think the 1236 00:53:47.820 --> 00:53:50.539 reason we work so well together is we balance each 1237 00:53:50.579 --> 00:53:54.199 other out and bringing those boundaries in has been really 1238 00:53:54.260 --> 00:53:56.599 really amazing like not working all the time not having 1239 00:53:56.639 --> 00:53:58.469 it bleed out to all hours of the day has 1240 00:53:58.510 --> 00:54:00.969 been Excellent, particularly now that I'm a mum. 1241 00:54:01.190 --> 00:54:05.269 And on that, I hate when women go on podcasts 1242 00:54:05.329 --> 00:54:07.239 and are specifically asked about their children. 1243 00:54:07.260 --> 00:54:07.610 No, no, no, ask away. 1244 00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:09.119 Because I don't think it necessarily happens the other way around. 1245 00:54:09.940 --> 00:54:14.599 But given you brought it up, I am really interested 1246 00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:17.780 in the transition, obviously for obvious reasons, as I barely 1247 00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:22.500 read here, like how you found that transition to becoming 1248 00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:25.840 a mum, still being a business owner, still having certain 1249 00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:27.900 standards for yourself. I can imagine some of them even 1250 00:54:27.940 --> 00:54:30.780 going up in terms of like, what you're, I don't know, 1251 00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.099 I already feel so torn between different things. I'm like, 1252 00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:34.960 I'm trying not to compromise this, that and the other. 1253 00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:37.639 How have you found that transition, both in terms of 1254 00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:40.400 like practical, but also emotional? 1255 00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:44.500 It's been really amazing. I won't lie and say every 1256 00:54:44.539 --> 00:54:45.340 day is amazing. 1257 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:48.889 I think little things can kind of throw you off 1258 00:54:49.010 --> 00:54:52.469 kilter slightly. Sadie's been quite sick the last week. So 1259 00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:55.639 when that kind of pops up that can really, you 1260 00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:59.159 can go from 0% stress to 100% stress quite quickly. 1261 00:54:59.179 --> 00:55:02.059 And I think Those are the moments when she has 1262 00:55:02.099 --> 00:55:05.420 been unwell, which is like sporadic. This was just something 1263 00:55:05.460 --> 00:55:07.710 where she caught a virus and ended up in hospital 1264 00:55:07.750 --> 00:55:09.989 for a little bit. And those kind of moments mean 1265 00:55:10.010 --> 00:55:12.409 that you're split in two. That's when I really understand 1266 00:55:12.429 --> 00:55:14.650 when mothers speak about like 50% of you is in 1267 00:55:14.710 --> 00:55:17.289 another room, you're in another space because your child needs you. 1268 00:55:17.309 --> 00:55:21.000 Aside from those moments, though, I feel like the

transition 1269 00:55:21.019 --> 00:55:23.440 has been really incredible. And I credit that to having 1270 00:55:23.659 --> 00:55:27.780 an incredibly supportive partner. Zara and I speak a lot 1271 00:55:27.800 --> 00:55:29.860 between ourselves that this is a piece of the puzzle 1272 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:31.980 that is so rarely spoken about. I hear a lot 1273 00:55:32.050 --> 00:55:37.269 of People talk about workplaces being progressive and allowing amazing 1274 00:55:37.429 --> 00:55:41.110 return-to-work policies and all those kind of things for mothers. 1275 00:55:41.329 --> 00:55:43.409 And those are important. I'm not saying they're not. Like, 1276 00:55:43.449 --> 00:55:46.170 workplaces need to do their part. For parents, though, not 1277 00:55:46.210 --> 00:55:46.769 just mothers. 1278 00:55:47.789 --> 00:55:51.199 Like, that's what enables a better share and, like, less 1279 00:55:51.340 --> 00:55:53.219 kind of misogynistic views of women in work. 1280 00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:57.380 Yeah. Flexible work for men. Exactly. It's the balanced approach. Yeah. 1281 00:55:57.460 --> 00:56:00.840 And it's also a conversation around what are men doing. 1282 00:56:00.539 --> 00:56:02.980 Differently who have kids like when a man chooses to 1283 00:56:03.019 --> 00:56:05.300 have a child i think it's imperative that he asks 1284 00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:10.329 himself okay and how am i balancing work and child 1285 00:56:10.369 --> 00:56:13.269 rearing like that is a conversation we so rarely hear 1286 00:56:13.309 --> 00:56:17.750 my husband at the moment isn't working because last year 1287 00:56:17.789 --> 00:56:20.820 i was you know raising a baby uh trying to 1288 00:56:20.860 --> 00:56:23.260 run the business i was doing the vast vast bulk 1289 00:56:23.300 --> 00:56:25.480 of it but trying to do the business stuff where 1290 00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:27.099 i could and then i was also caring for a 1291 00:56:27.139 --> 00:56:30.429 terminally sick mom with brain cancer So it became a 1292 00:56:30.469 --> 00:56:33.260 conversation where Mitch had to stop work simply to allow 1293 00:56:33.380 --> 00:56:36.679 all of that to be possible. And I think it's 1294 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:40.539 something I wish more women would really actively think about 1295 00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:43.889 quite young. Who are you having children with? Because if 1296 00:56:43.909 --> 00:56:46.710 you're having children with a man who doesn't ask himself equally, 1297 00:56:46.789 --> 00:56:49.889 and what am I sacrificing for my career? What time 1298 00:56:49.929 --> 00:56:53.599 am I taking out? How am I making this all work? 1299 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:57.480 think that's the biggest tragedy a woman uh can have 1300 00:56:57.500 --> 00:56:59.360 in her life that she has kids with the wrong 1301 00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:00.679 man who doesn't support her. 1302 00:57:00.619 --> 00:57:03.480 Career ambitions I mean I totally agree I think that 1303 00:57:03.519 -->

00:57:06.940 that like obviously when you get pregnant you get like 1304 00:57:06.980 --> 00:57:08.820 there are so many of these thoughts that become pretty 1305 00:57:08.969 --> 00:57:10.929 urgent like I've I was about to say I've. 1306 00:57:10.849 --> 00:57:13.170 Been pretty lucky I've been in two first trimesters this 1307 00:57:13.210 --> 00:57:14.110 year obviously. 1308 00:57:13.889 --> 00:57:16.070 Not that lucky but actually it's going to be a 1309 00:57:16.130 --> 00:57:18.449 very long time to be able to think about like 1310 00:57:18.889 --> 00:57:22.670 okay how This point, I'm going to need to at 1311 00:57:22.710 --> 00:57:24.210 least take some time off work. 1312 00:57:24.269 --> 00:57:25.250 What does that look like? 1313 00:57:25.690 --> 00:57:28.949 My husband's self-employed, so he's not going to get any 1314 00:57:28.989 --> 00:57:31.619 paternity leave. At the same time, we're very lucky to 1315 00:57:31.639 --> 00:57:34.739 be in a position where either of us could fully 1316 00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:38.099 support the other. And I totally appreciate that that's not 1317 00:57:38.559 --> 00:57:42.059 the norm. But when we've been thinking about that, I've 1318 00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:44.090 been looking at it and I've been like, actually, the 1319 00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:45.909 only way I as a woman can. 1320 00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:50.530 Continue to do the things that I already do and 1321 00:57:50.610 --> 00:57:55.090 reach the heights that I aspire to is by having 1322 00:57:55.110 --> 00:57:57.269 this conversation that we very naturally have on the other 1323 00:57:57.309 --> 00:57:59.309 side where it's kind of like. 1324 00:57:59.329 --> 00:58:01.829 How do we split this? 1325 00:58:02.030 --> 00:58:05.269 How do we make sure that we both feel capable 1326 00:58:05.329 --> 00:58:08.159 of reaching our goals because neither of us want to 1327 00:58:08.659 --> 00:58:11.909 stop work? And just, like, it's very, very complex. But 1328 00:58:11.949 --> 00:58:13.949 you're right, we don't have that conversation the other way around. 1329 00:58:14.010 --> 00:58:15.610 And I think all the time when you hear about 1330 00:58:15.650 --> 00:58:18.289 these men who've done all of these amazing things, and, like, 1331 00:58:18.750 --> 00:58:21.050 the question is never, like, where were your kids throughout this? 1332 00:58:21.110 --> 00:58:23.630 The question is never, like, okay, well, what help do 1333 00:58:23.670 --> 00:58:26.369 you have at home? When you see these morning routine 1334 00:58:26.389 --> 00:58:28.809 videos online that they're doing something at 5am, they're doing 1335 00:58:28.829 --> 00:58:30.909 something at 7am, then the kids suddenly appear and get 1336 00:58:30.969 --> 00:58:31.650 whisked away. 1337 00:58:31.750 --> 00:58:33.889 And it's like, well, the only. 1338 00:58:33.670 --> 00:58:38.570 Way this can happen is by having literal, like, free 1339 00:58:38.590 --> 00:58:40.480 time work at home. 1340 00:58:40.340 --> 00:58:44.849 Yeah yeah I think also it's something that obviously I 1341 00:58:44.849 --> 00:58:47.010 have far less experience in it than I mean I 1342 00:58:47.030 --> 00:58:51.420 have no experience in it because but to that end 1343 00:58:51.539 --> 00:58:54.210 like my partner is a lawyer I'm He wanted to 1344 00:58:54.230 --> 00:58:55.710 become a barrister. I don't know how it works in 1345 00:58:55.730 --> 00:58:57.860 the UK, but in Australia, it's like a long process. Yes. 1346 00:58:57.880 --> 00:58:59.840 Is it like you don't get sponsored? Like all of that. 1347 00:58:59.860 --> 00:59:01.340 You have to go. Like there was a long period 1348 00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:04.420 of him having to study and not work. And, you know, 1349 00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:05.670 you have to have a partner that will support that. 1350 00:59:05.690 --> 00:59:07.769 But this is a conversation we had to have, what, 1351 00:59:07.869 --> 00:59:08.730 three to four years ago. 1352 00:59:08.949 --> 00:59:09.210 Right. 1353 00:59:09.489 --> 00:59:11.900 And plan. for in the context of having kids where 1354 00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:13.260 it was like, okay, well, what are you doing about 1355 00:59:13.300 --> 00:59:15.099 your career to get yourself to a point that this 1356 00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:16.900 doesn't just come up in four years and say, and 1357 00:59:16.940 --> 00:59:18.639 then I want to get there because we've got, which 1358 00:59:18.659 --> 00:59:22.239 I think happens a lot. Women restructure their entire careers 1359 00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:24.500 to make sure it's manageable for themselves by the time 1360 00:59:24.539 --> 00:59:26.320 kids come along. They're out of mental input, women. 1361 00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:26.599 Yeah. 1362 00:59:26.679 --> 00:59:28.940 And it was like, for me, a huge expectation. And 1363 00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:31.519 for him too, to be like, well, how are you 1364 00:59:31.579 --> 00:59:34.179 restructuring things years and years and years out to make 1365 00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:37.300 sure that we're both in a manageable spot by the 1366 00:59:37.340 --> 00:59:40.099 time we choose to do this? Zara had an amazing analogy. 1367 00:59:40.139 --> 00:59:42.750 I hope you don't mind me sharing this. She spoke 1368 00:59:42.769 --> 00:59:44.349 to me last year. I was pregnant and we were 1369 00:59:44.389 --> 00:59:44.809 in an Uber. 1370 00:59:44.849 --> 00:59:46.769 Oh, this was my sister's, by the way. She's going 1371 00:59:46.789 --> 00:59:49.150 to kill me for how often I steal her shit. Okay, 1372 00:59:49.210 --> 00:59:51.139 I'm going to credit me at a McDonald's with this analogy. 1373 00:59:51.179 --> 00:59:54.159 But it's like if you weren't at home and your 1374 00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:56.659 husband was with your child, could he pack the baby 1375 00:59:56.699 --> 01:00:01.000 bag without asking you a single question? And I think 1376 01:00:01.059 --> 01:00:04.760 the number of women who

maybe would say, no, he can't. 1377 01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.030 I'd constantly be texted. I'd constantly be on the phone 1378 01:00:07.050 --> 01:00:08.980 with him. telling him everything that needs to go in 1379 01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:11.360 the baby bag I think that shows already that the 1380 01:00:12.219 --> 01:00:17.139 division of labor as far as child rearing is concerned. 1381 01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:20.179 Is not equitable is not equal yeah and I think 1382 01:00:20.380 --> 01:00:23.110 one of the best pieces of advice I think I 1383 01:00:23.139 --> 01:00:25.070 haven't put any advice into play yet as my baby 1384 01:00:25.110 --> 01:00:27.590 is still in my tummy but like was one of 1385 01:00:27.630 --> 01:00:30.530 my friends she said at the beginning when you've just 1386 01:00:30.570 --> 01:00:33.260 had the baby Neither of you should correct each other 1387 01:00:33.320 --> 01:00:33.860 on anything. 1388 01:00:33.960 --> 01:00:34.219 Yes. 1389 01:00:34.300 --> 01:00:38.179 Like, don't be like, oh, you're holding her wrong or 1390 01:00:38.219 --> 01:00:39.800 you're doing this or this is how you should do 1391 01:00:39.820 --> 01:00:42.460 this because then one of you becomes the primary parent. 1392 01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:44.619 And naturally, that's going to be the woman because the 1393 01:00:44.659 --> 01:00:46.380 amount of time they spend with the baby, particularly if 1394 01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:50.369 you're breastfeeding, particularly naturally in terms of, like, research around 1395 01:00:50.409 --> 01:00:50.869 certain things. 1396 01:00:50.889 --> 01:00:52.030 Also, the baby is so much. 1397 01:00:51.929 --> 01:00:55.329 More comfortable with you instinctively because they recognize your smell, 1398 01:00:55.369 --> 01:00:56.289 your voice, everything. 1399 01:00:56.369 --> 01:00:57.550 I think that's a huge one, Grace. 1400 01:00:57.590 --> 01:01:00.269 Like, I remember my sister said that to me. 1401 01:01:00.289 --> 01:01:00.789 No corrections. 1402 01:01:01.349 --> 01:01:03.969 I'll now credit Claire Andrews. 1403 01:01:03.989 --> 01:01:04.949 We love sibling. 1404 01:01:05.179 --> 01:01:07.119 She's like, one of my biggest lessons is make sure 1405 01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:10.780 you do not make your partner feel like they are 1406 01:01:10.820 --> 01:01:13.480 not competent and they need to doubt themselves and therefore 1407 01:01:13.500 --> 01:01:14.260 that they need to. 1408 01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:16.719 Turn to you for approval and how to do it. 1409 01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:18.699 Because as soon as you set that dynamic up, you're 1410 01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:21.750 the expert, they're the novice, and that's what continues. And 1411 01:01:21.809 --> 01:01:23.989 so she's a maternal child health nurse. She was also 1412 01:01:24.030 --> 01:01:26.849 a midwife before that. And I think that's amazing advice 1413 01:01:26.889 --> 01:01:30.880 for women. Even if you feel like you know better, 1414 01:01:31.239 -->

01:01:33.840 you need to let your husband, in the case of 1415 01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:36.659 heterosexual relationships, you need to let them feel empowered. As 1416 01:01:36.739 --> 01:01:39.489 soon as you disempower them early on, That dynamic can 1417 01:01:39.530 --> 01:01:41.269 actually be the worst case for both of you. 1418 01:01:41.469 --> 01:01:43.260 So after I heard that advice, I actually thought, how 1419 01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:45.400 can we put that into action as soon as possible? 1420 01:01:46.139 --> 01:01:51.409 And what we've introduced in my pregnancy, which I received my. 1421 01:01:51.349 --> 01:01:52.250 Bulletin on this morning. 1422 01:01:52.739 --> 01:01:56.289 Is that my husband is in charge of symptom watch 1423 01:01:56.469 --> 01:01:58.929 and knowing what's happening to the baby each week. So 1424 01:01:59.150 --> 01:02:01.409 I like, as in, because I think, and again, naturally, 1425 01:02:01.530 --> 01:02:04.739 it's like, you're the one setting up the appointments. You're 1426 01:02:04.780 --> 01:02:07.119 the one like downloading the apps. You're the one doing 1427 01:02:07.139 --> 01:02:08.800 all of this because of course it's happening to your body. 1428 01:02:09.179 --> 01:02:11.320 Whereas like my thing was like, well, there's not much 1429 01:02:11.380 --> 01:02:13.519 you can do at the moment. What you can do 1430 01:02:13.539 --> 01:02:15.789 is like, obviously fully look after me and like make 1431 01:02:15.829 --> 01:02:18.210 me all my food and rub my feet and But, like, 1432 01:02:18.289 --> 01:02:20.110 other than that, like, you should be the one telling 1433 01:02:20.170 --> 01:02:21.949 me every week, like, what I'm about to have happen. 1434 01:02:21.969 --> 01:02:23.349 Yeah. Because I'm going to know it as soon as 1435 01:02:23.389 --> 01:02:25.630 it starts happening. Like, he can do the research. Exactly. Like, 1436 01:02:25.690 --> 01:02:28.659 that's not gatecapped. One for Mitch and I early on. No, 1437 01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:31.659 that's not gatecapped. Google's rapid. Yeah, literally so free as well. 1438 01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:33.219 One for Mitch and I early. 1439 01:02:33.079 --> 01:02:35.860 On was I was breastfeeding for the first six months. 1440 01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:36.800 He would do every nap. 1441 01:02:37.099 --> 01:02:38.889 And I know that for some couples they'd be like, well, 1442 01:02:38.909 --> 01:02:42.090 that's so inconvenient. You're both awake at the same time. 1443 01:02:42.130 --> 01:02:43.690 Shouldn't one of you be sleeping? I'm like, but if 1444 01:02:43.730 --> 01:02:46.809 you're a breastfeeding mom. You're a wakeful stop. And it 1445 01:02:46.829 --> 01:02:48.710 was like for us, it's like, well, that's an equal 1446 01:02:48.730 --> 01:02:51.440 division of labor that I breastfeed and then straight after 1447 01:02:51.480 --> 01:02:53.480 that or before or whatever, you change to the nappy 1448 01:02:53.500 --> 01:02:57.599 and that's how we do things. It can be very, 1449 01:02:57.639 --> 01:02:59.880 very tricky, particularly if you're breastfeeding early on, that all 1450 01:02:59.900 --> 01:03:02.650 of a sudden you are the go-to for everything. And 1451 01:03:02.690 --> 01:03:04.949 I think it's important that women start thinking about, okay, well, 1452 01:03:04.989 --> 01:03:07.679 what are the– the little rules that we even bring 1453 01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:09.900 in between us to make sure we both feel as 1454 01:03:09.980 --> 01:03:11.559 comfortable with this dynamic as possible. 1455 01:03:11.699 --> 01:03:14.940 Yeah. And in terms of, like, your being at work. 1456 01:03:14.739 --> 01:03:17.469 Every day and your approach towards work and, like, your 1457 01:03:17.679 --> 01:03:20.510 aspirations overall, have there been any significant shifts? 1458 01:03:21.170 --> 01:03:24.570 If anything, I think I'm more ambitious now, but I 1459 01:03:24.590 --> 01:03:27.389 think that's part of losing mum as well. Mum was such, 1460 01:03:27.489 --> 01:03:30.530 and Zara's mum, Trish, is the exact same. They were 1461 01:03:30.570 --> 01:03:31.610 our biggest supporters. 1462 01:03:32.030 --> 01:03:32.309 Sorry. 1463 01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:37.539 And so losing mum, it's... I think she always said 1464 01:03:37.579 --> 01:03:39.679 to us, like, oh, my God, just go for it. Like, 1465 01:03:39.699 --> 01:03:43.820 she always believed in Shameless so deeply and Shameless Media. 1466 01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:48.329 So I think losing her galvanized me that she would 1467 01:03:48.369 --> 01:03:50.110 want us to just shoot for the stars. 1468 01:03:50.510 --> 01:03:54.329 Yeah. She was, like, competitive on your behalf. She was 1469 01:03:54.409 --> 01:03:59.389 a 3-0. Yeah, like an absolute 3. She loved optics. Yeah, 1470 01:03:59.670 --> 01:04:03.409 she was, like, she used to ride us to make 1471 01:04:03.469 --> 01:04:06.559 sure that we were hitting those milestones. Yeah. I think 1472 01:04:07.500 --> 01:04:10.949 to your question to Michelle about your ambition and stuff 1473 01:04:10.989 --> 01:04:13.360 like that, I think it's interesting because before Michelle had kids, 1474 01:04:13.630 --> 01:04:18.030 a kid, sorry, there's my secret child anyway. A couple 1475 01:04:18.090 --> 01:04:20.690 of my girlfriends asked me that, like, are you guys, 1476 01:04:21.150 --> 01:04:24.110 are you worried about your dynamic changing or that like 1477 01:04:24.250 --> 01:04:25.889 one of you will be running the business and what 1478 01:04:25.949 --> 01:04:30.050 if like she fundamentally changes in her motivation? And I 1479 01:04:30.110 --> 01:04:33.230 literally looked at them and I was like, I don't 1480 01:04:33.289 --> 01:04:36.119 mean to sound naive right now, but like, when you 1481 01:04:36.139 --> 01:04:38.039 understand the core of who someone is when you run 1482 01:04:38.059 --> 01:04:39.840 a business with them, this is just simply not a 1483 01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:40.539 concern

for me. 1484 01:04:40.699 --> 01:04:42.639 Well, it's so interesting that you just said that because 1485 01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:45.179 when I was telling the company that I was pregnant, 1486 01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:47.860 I had a freak out the night before and I 1487 01:04:47.900 --> 01:04:49.909 was like, oh my God, I should tell the senior 1488 01:04:49.929 --> 01:04:52.469 leadership team before and give them a full like hour 1489 01:04:52.550 --> 01:04:55.030 forum to ask me questions. And then I was like 1490 01:04:55.070 --> 01:04:56.289 setting that up and I was doing that. And then 1491 01:04:56.309 --> 01:04:57.369 I was just talking to one of my friends and 1492 01:04:57.389 --> 01:04:59.949 I was like, how many... men do you think when 1493 01:04:59.969 --> 01:05:02.519 they're about to have a baby also i'm six months 1494 01:05:02.539 --> 01:05:03.840 away do you not think i've thought about this for 1495 01:05:03.860 --> 01:05:05.360 the part like as in like i've spent the past 1496 01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:06.760 three years planning. 1497 01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:09.719 For this business owner it's truthfully what you start thinking 1498 01:05:09.739 --> 01:05:12.570 when you're probably 25 exactly you started planning for this then. 1499 01:05:12.550 --> 01:05:15.050 And so i'm like how many male business owners would 1500 01:05:15.070 --> 01:05:16.889 have had to think like oh i'll sit down and 1501 01:05:16.909 --> 01:05:18.750 see if they have any questions because they're scared that 1502 01:05:19.130 --> 01:05:21.889 i won't care about my own business after i have 1503 01:05:21.929 --> 01:05:23.820 a baby because how could i ever care about anything 1504 01:05:23.860 --> 01:05:27.219 else because of course women don't only care about children 1505 01:05:27.260 --> 01:05:29.739 once they have children like it's such a fallacy but 1506 01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:33.579 it's so it's so true like even I see people 1507 01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:35.670 I mean I listened to your episode the other day 1508 01:05:35.730 --> 01:05:37.510 on like the mass unfollowing of pregnant women and I 1509 01:05:37.510 --> 01:05:39.670 was listening to this and I was just like it 1510 01:05:39.730 --> 01:05:43.269 is so interesting because like I'm already naturally trying to 1511 01:05:43.429 --> 01:05:47.579 fight against this assumption that all my content's going to 1512 01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:50.579 be about pregnancy and being a mom and like that's 1513 01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:53.079 all I'm going to care about. It's like, guys, I mean, 1514 01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:54.579 no one's even said this to me. So like, I'm 1515 01:05:55.059 --> 01:05:57.469 taking a bridge with it. No, they've checked it on me. 1516 01:05:57.750 --> 01:06:01.610 But like, I've cared about my businesses like so much 1517 01:06:01.690 --> 01:06:03.989 for the past 10 years. Like, Do you not see 1518 01:06:04.030 --> 01:06:06.070 how much... Like, that's not just because I've had

them 1519 01:06:06.139 --> 01:06:08.599 instead of a baby. Like, that's not just, like, that 1520 01:06:08.699 --> 01:06:09.980 that was the only option there. It's part of the 1521 01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:10.510 DNA of who you are. 1522 01:06:10.519 --> 01:06:12.199 Exactly. Like, that is literally, like. 1523 01:06:12.539 --> 01:06:14.199 If you've met me for one day, you know that 1524 01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:16.219 I fully planned my maternity leave. You know that I 1525 01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:18.760 fully planned, like, every single approach to the business and 1526 01:06:18.780 --> 01:06:20.800 all of that. And I do think it's so interesting that, like, 1527 01:06:20.949 --> 01:06:24.190 we do see women who become mums as women who 1528 01:06:24.230 --> 01:06:28.190 become exclusively mums, despite the fact that that is disproved 1529 01:06:28.789 --> 01:06:30.010 everywhere now. Yeah. 1530 01:06:30.349 --> 01:06:31.010 I think, um. 1531 01:06:31.690 --> 01:06:34.309 It comes with some sacrifice. It's not like you can 1532 01:06:34.349 --> 01:06:38.309 have a baby and life looks exactly the same. But 1533 01:06:39.010 --> 01:06:42.280 I think provided you have, I mean, a supportive family 1534 01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:45.099 is such a privilege as well when you have a baby. 1535 01:06:45.139 --> 01:06:46.860 I think if you have a good village around you 1536 01:06:46.880 --> 01:06:49.500 and a good community around you, a lot is possible. 1537 01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:52.820 And I mean, I would have wanted to hear that. 1538 01:06:53.309 --> 01:06:55.329 Five years ago when I was anxious about running a 1539 01:06:55.369 --> 01:06:59.349 business alongside Zaz and one day having kids, I think, uh, 1540 01:06:59.389 --> 01:07:01.250 being 10 and a half months into it now, I 1541 01:07:01.289 --> 01:07:03.599 can say that it's not always easy, but it is 1542 01:07:03.860 --> 01:07:07.739 absolutely possible. And it does take a village to raise 1543 01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:09.719 a child. And one thing I'm really happy about, I mean, 1544 01:07:09.760 --> 01:07:11.480 I have four days out of the week with Sadie 1545 01:07:11.559 --> 01:07:14.059 and I really soak them up and I, I love 1546 01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:16.579 those moments with her when I'm not with her and 1547 01:07:16.599 --> 01:07:19.750 she's at daycare or with family or with Mitch. I 1548 01:07:19.829 --> 01:07:24.679 know that she's also, uh, boosting her social skills and 1549 01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:28.079 building her independence and like she's already such an independent 1550 01:07:28.119 --> 01:07:31.219 little girl who is so confident with different adults and 1551 01:07:31.260 --> 01:07:33.880 people I think you just need to kind of go 1552 01:07:33.940 --> 01:07:36.900 into it with a plan you need to think about 1553 01:07:36.940 --> 01:07:39.280 this stuff uh rather than starting to think about it 1554 01:07:39.340 --> 01:07:41.860 the moment you go on maternity leave yeah.

1555 01:07:42.099 --> 01:07:46.360 Yeah and also like for some people work can be 1556 01:07:46.380 --> 01:07:49.940 joyful not everyone but like and fulfilling watching you come 1557 01:07:49.980 --> 01:07:53.969 back to work was lovely Because you seem, I mean, 1558 01:07:53.989 --> 01:07:56.030 I don't want to put what, you seemed incredibly happy. 1559 01:07:56.289 --> 01:07:58.369 Yeah, I think I am so happy with the balance. 1560 01:07:58.570 --> 01:08:01.650 Feeling like when I'm with my daughter, I can be 1561 01:08:01.750 --> 01:08:04.949 fully present. And then when I'm not with her, I'm 1562 01:08:05.030 --> 01:08:07.730 working on something that brings me an incredible sense of fulfillment. 1563 01:08:08.030 --> 01:08:10.449 I totally understand why some mothers wouldn't feel that way. 1564 01:08:10.489 --> 01:08:11.929 I think it is a privilege to be in a 1565 01:08:11.949 --> 01:08:13.489 job where you do feel that fulfillment. 1566 01:08:13.530 --> 01:08:14.219 Job specific. 1567 01:08:14.280 --> 01:08:17.539 A lot of people don't. A lot of women feel fulfilled. 1568 01:08:18.029 --> 01:08:19.670 a little empty when they're at work so I can 1569 01:08:19.770 --> 01:08:22.109 totally understand why they would want to spend more time 1570 01:08:22.130 --> 01:08:25.670 at home and maybe not be at work but for 1571 01:08:25.750 --> 01:08:28.149 me at the moment the balance is incredible and I'm 1572 01:08:28.260 --> 01:08:29.420 really enjoying. 1573 01:08:29.029 --> 01:08:30.960 It I love that and I'll be definitely asking you 1574 01:08:30.979 --> 01:08:35.079 some follow-up oh please via your dms and to wrap 1575 01:08:35.180 --> 01:08:36.859 up I'd love to know from each of you what 1576 01:08:36.880 --> 01:08:38.920 the best piece of advice is that you've ever been given. 1577 01:08:38.859 --> 01:08:40.500 I'm trying to work out if this is advice that's 1578 01:08:40.520 --> 01:08:42.539 been given to us or if it's something that we've 1579 01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:46.359 learned over time and there is no snappy one-liner for 1580 01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:48.420 it so just like hear me out but I often 1581 01:08:48.460 --> 01:08:50.619 sense when you, particularly in the context of running a business, 1582 01:08:50.640 --> 01:08:52.439 when you say something is going wrong or you need 1583 01:08:52.460 --> 01:08:54.890 to fix something, it's very, very tempting to say, okay, 1584 01:08:55.210 --> 01:08:57.510 everything about it needs to change. And the pendulum just 1585 01:08:57.529 --> 01:09:00.319 swings so far one way and you change everything. single 1586 01:09:00.340 --> 01:09:02.279 thing about it and it's not going to work. What 1587 01:09:02.300 --> 01:09:04.510 we genuinely try really hard to do is if we 1588 01:09:04.569 --> 01:09:07.750 see something not working, we make very small changes here 1589 01:09:07.810 --> 01:09:10.189 and there rather than let the pendulum swing too far. 1590 01:09:10.609 --> 01:09:12.229 And let your emotion get the better of you to 1591 01:09:12.289 --> 01:09:14.560 say every single thing about this needs to change. Because 1592 01:09:14.569 --> 01:09:16.500 I think that's how you make more mistakes. Yeah. I 1593 01:09:16.520 --> 01:09:17.060 think that's right. 1594 01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:19.899 It's like a tweak and tweak and replicate rather than 1595 01:09:19.939 --> 01:09:21.489 like a throw it all in the bin. 1596 01:09:21.510 --> 01:09:22.970 Scrap it all and start again. Yeah, scrap it all 1597 01:09:23.010 --> 01:09:26.060 and start again. Yeah. I would say one of mine 1598 01:09:26.100 --> 01:09:27.680 is from my little sister, Evelyn. 1599 01:09:27.779 --> 01:09:30.479 She's a– God, family's had a big role in this. 1600 01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:33.090 Yeah. We'll bring them next time. Yeah, they can come. 1601 01:09:33.109 --> 01:09:34.050 There's a lot of them. 1602 01:09:34.149 --> 01:09:37.109 Yeah, we're very, very close with our families. And they're 1603 01:09:37.170 --> 01:09:40.149 kind of our brains trust in many ways. So when 1604 01:09:40.189 --> 01:09:42.500 we have a dilemma, Zara often turns to me and 1605 01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:44.000 I often turn to Evelyn and Claire. 1606 01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:46.279 Evelyn's very pragmatic. 1607 01:09:46.340 --> 01:09:48.029 She's a doctor and she deals with a lot of, 1608 01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:52.359 you know– emergency kind of situations in her job day 1609 01:09:52.380 --> 01:09:54.260 to day. And she always says to be a rock 1610 01:09:54.300 --> 01:09:57.380 in the river and that there can be absolute chaos 1611 01:09:57.439 --> 01:09:59.479 swirling above you and moving above you. 1612 01:09:59.579 --> 01:10:01.850 You just need to kind of stay grounded, put your 1613 01:10:01.890 --> 01:10:03.149 head down, do the work. 1614 01:10:03.789 --> 01:10:06.050 I think that's been huge for us to just in 1615 01:10:06.149 --> 01:10:08.909 moments of chaos, find that inner sense of calm and 1616 01:10:08.970 --> 01:10:11.460 that inner confidence to be like, we will just be 1617 01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:13.300 rocks in the river and we will get through this. 1618 01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:15.420 I think another part of that is just put out 1619 01:10:15.460 --> 01:10:18.819 good content. Like if you put out good work that 1620 01:10:18.859 --> 01:10:21.880 you back and you love, everything will be okay in 1621 01:10:21.920 --> 01:10:25.260 the end. And always returning to that as our North Star, 1622 01:10:25.300 --> 01:10:28.060 I think let's put out the best possible shows that 1623 01:10:28.100 --> 01:10:30.420 we can that will get us through anything. 1624 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:31.619 Yeah, I love that. 1625 01:10:31.659 --> 01:10:33.800 I think that lots of North Stars can be very lofty, 1626 01:10:33.899 --> 01:10:37.500 like obviously, but I think that actually that's what it, 1627 01:10:37.899 --> 01:10:40.060 Like knowing that that's what it comes back to day in, 1628 01:10:40.100 --> 01:10:42.760 day out for you as a business, I feel like 1629 01:10:43.340 --> 01:10:45.960 very much shows in terms of all of your output. 1630 01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:48.310 Thank you. Yeah, you guys have done so incredibly well 1631 01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:50.789 and it's so amazing to watch. And I can't wait 1632 01:10:50.810 --> 01:10:53.329 to watch you go from strength to strength. Thank you. 1633 01:10:53.390 --> 01:10:55.270 Thank you for having us. Not at all. Thanks for 1634 01:10:55.289 --> 01:10:58.470 being in Australia and giving Australia your time. Blessing Australia 1635 01:10:58.489 --> 01:10:59.090 with your presence. 1636 01:10:59.130 --> 01:11:00.170 Australia gets blessed. 1637 01:11:00.229 --> 01:11:01.479 Australia didn't like me.