התמלול המלא של Ep.40 When Do You Know It's Time To Walk Away? Taking Career Risks With Iconic TV Presenter Jake Humphrey

like but also like 74 00:03:25.189 --> 00:03:27.509 a nice kick up the ass. That sounds horrible and 75 00:03:27.569 --> 00:03:31.150 also quite dodgy, but like motivation in a nice friendly way. 76 00:03:31.169 --> 00:03:31.849 I don't know. 77 00:03:31.889 --> 00:03:33.150 I just thought that this was some of the best 78 00:03:33.189 --> 00:03:36.169 advice I'd kind of listened to and was just such 79 00:03:36.289 --> 00:03:39.319 a good conversation on the idea of success versus failure 80 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:41.740 and our paths and careers and the speed we should 81 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:44.620 be going at sprints versus, you know, a nice little jog. 82 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:47.539 So I hope you really enjoyed this episode. I think 83 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:49.949 it's a really good one. Personally, I would say that, 84 00:03:49.990 --> 00:03:53.580 you know, it's my podcast. As always, please rate the 85 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:55.520 podcast if you do enjoy it. Please share it with 86 00:03:55.539 --> 00:03:58.199 your friends if you do enjoy it. And if not, 87 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:00.139 just don't let me know because it will hurt me. 88 00:04:00.620 --> 00:04:03.379 I hope you really enjoy this episode. And as always, 89 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:08.590 have a lovely day. Thanks so much for joining me. 90 00:04:08.789 --> 00:04:11.469 To set the scene, would you be able to give 91 00:04:11.530 --> 00:04:14.629 a little whistle-stop tour on the background of who you 92 00:04:14.810 --> 00:04:16.730 are and kind of how you got to where you 93 00:04:16.769 --> 00:04:18.490 are now? But we can drag that bit out a 94 00:04:18.509 --> 00:04:19.269 little bit longer. 95 00:04:19.290 --> 00:04:19.360 Yes. 96 00:04:19.629 --> 00:04:22.139 Okay. It's always hard to know how you got there, right? 97 00:04:22.459 --> 00:04:25.079 That's one of the challenging things. I think a lot 98 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:27.579 of people will see the amazing stuff that you put 99 00:04:27.660 --> 00:04:30.620 out on Instagram and the incredible story of your businesses 100 00:04:31.660 --> 00:04:33.620 and what they will, I think, maybe come to this 101 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.779 podcast for or other podcasts like it is to connect 102 00:04:36.819 --> 00:04:39.240 the dots in advance. One of the hardest things I 103 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:40.819 think is that you're not able to do that. 104 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:41.360 Yeah, sure. 105 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:43.220 And it's only now when I think of, oh, that 106 00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:45.120 was a really key moment in my career or that 107 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.220 was a moment that really had a long lasting impact. 108 00:04:48.730 --> 00:04:50.790 The truth is at the time, I had no idea. 109 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:54.569 So the learning from that is just be you and 110 00:04:54.589 --> 00:04:58.100 give 100% to everything because you don't know when that 111 00:04:58.149 --> 00:04:59.959 moment's going

to come. So what were the sort of 112 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:04.319 moments for me? Again, they were totally disguised. I always 113 00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:07.459 try and say this in a way that it comes 114 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:10.519 across right, but I sometimes think that it feels a 115 00:05:10.540 --> 00:05:12.980 bit stupid to say I was the most normal person 116 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:13.759 you could ever imagine. 117 00:05:13.899 --> 00:05:14.160 Mm-hmm. 118 00:05:14.620 --> 00:05:17.420 Because it sounds a bit too self-deprecating although I'm trying 119 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:19.360 to make a point, but what I'm trying to say 120 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:23.879 is I grew up thinking you had successful people. 30 121 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:26.519 years ago, I'd see your Instagram and go, wow, she's 122 00:05:26.569 --> 00:05:28.910 naturally successful, I'm naturally not. I just thought there was 123 00:05:28.949 --> 00:05:32.050 a secret to high performance that I wasn't exposed to 124 00:05:32.189 --> 00:05:34.009 or I wasn't born into wealth or anything. So I 125 00:05:34.470 --> 00:05:36.310 came from a small village in Norfolk. Dad was a 126 00:05:36.329 --> 00:05:40.889 charity worker. Mum was a teacher. House absolutely full of love. 127 00:05:41.509 --> 00:05:45.670 Probably not a house full of like, die-hard ambition you 128 00:05:45.709 --> 00:05:48.170 know they was like go to school get a degree 129 00:05:48.189 --> 00:05:49.829 if you can go to university and get a job 130 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.879 that was the kind of plan really heavy work ethic 131 00:05:52.899 --> 00:05:54.860 I had a paper round really early I carried on 132 00:05:54.899 --> 00:05:56.600 doing it till I was about 16 my mum and 133 00:05:56.620 --> 00:05:58.860 dad were always palming me off to neighbors houses to 134 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:01.980 mow their lawn do their gardening for like two pounds 135 00:06:02.019 --> 00:06:04.860 an hour or whatever the big moment really was I 136 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.639 was like super normal didn't do any acting didn't do 137 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:11.069 any stuff at school wasn't any sports teams failed my A-levels. 138 00:06:11.089 --> 00:06:12.689 That was like a really big key moment for me. 139 00:06:12.970 --> 00:06:15.110 And that was around a time of like deep and 140 00:06:15.149 --> 00:06:18.730 intense failure or struggle or negative things happening. So I 141 00:06:19.250 --> 00:06:21.790 worked at McDonald's and I got fired. And I know 142 00:06:21.829 --> 00:06:23.870 now like we can laugh and think fired from McDonald's, 143 00:06:23.889 --> 00:06:26.529 how ridiculous. But when you're 17 and all your mates 144 00:06:26.589 --> 00:06:30.189 work there and they come in because you can like 145 00:06:30.449 --> 00:06:31.750 chat to them while they're buying their food and then 146 00:06:31.769 --> 00:06:33.120 you have to tell them you've been sacked. So that 147 00:06:33.139 --> 00:06:35.160 is deeply embarrassing. Even to go home to your parents 148 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.300 at that age and go, I've been fired from a 149 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:41.800 fast food restaurant. Particularly when None of us thought like 150 00:06:42.220 --> 00:06:45.079 that Jake had any sort of special talents or it 151 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.680 wasn't like, well, don't worry because you're great at this. 152 00:06:47.180 --> 00:06:49.420 I didn't really have anything. So I got fired from that. 153 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.279 I lost my grandma around that time. She committed suicide, 154 00:06:53.379 --> 00:06:56.399 which again is a really difficult thing to cope with 155 00:06:56.439 --> 00:06:58.980 mentally when you're doing your A-levels and you're a teenager 156 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.699 because your grandparents, you feel like they've got it sorted. 157 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:04.730 Like, I mean, I've never experienced that, so I can't. 158 00:07:05.149 --> 00:07:06.879 I can't imagine how tough that would have been. But 159 00:07:06.980 --> 00:07:10.079 I can also imagine conceptually you have this such like 160 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:13.100 naive approach to life when you're a teenager. Like it's 161 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:15.339 so sweet and naive in the way that you're like, 162 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:18.819 kind of, of course you'd want to live. And like 163 00:07:18.860 --> 00:07:21.610 that kind of whole approach to thinking about something. So 164 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:24.170 I can imagine that just being turned on its head 165 00:07:24.589 --> 00:07:29.029 in that moment. Like that's a lot. alongside grief, conceptually, 166 00:07:29.069 --> 00:07:30.709 for a teenager to be able to deal with the 167 00:07:30.750 --> 00:07:33.889 difference between someone wanting to live and someone deciding that 168 00:07:33.910 --> 00:07:35.730 that wasn't what they wanted to do. I can imagine 169 00:07:35.769 --> 00:07:38.470 that just rocking your entire world, grief aside. 170 00:07:38.649 --> 00:07:40.910 You're totally right. Because I think, like, I'd already lost 171 00:07:40.949 --> 00:07:43.970 grandparents before then. There's something very different, though, to your 172 00:07:43.990 --> 00:07:47.089 mum sitting down. And I remember her telling me when, like, 173 00:07:48.149 --> 00:07:50.509 when my grandpa died, for example, he was ill and 174 00:07:50.829 --> 00:07:52.149 he was in his 80s. And I remember them just 175 00:07:52.170 --> 00:07:54.509 sitting down and going, listen, we've got some news. Grandpa's 176 00:07:54.550 --> 00:07:57.430 died in the night. And you kind of go... amazing 177 00:07:57.449 --> 00:08:00.730 guy amazing life sad but this is you know you're 178 00:08:00.750 --> 00:08:03.670 told that that's the circle of life right when you've 179 00:08:03.689 --> 00:08:08.350 got a healthy fun amazing dynamic brilliant grandma who seems 180 00:08:08.430 --> 00:08:10.769 okay then it is very

difficult thing to deal with 181 00:08:10.829 --> 00:08:15.769 and actually i remember it specifically difficult because about three 182 00:08:15.790 --> 00:08:19.009 or four days before i was doing my a level 183 00:08:19.029 --> 00:08:24.189 um revision and she came around And I remember her 184 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:26.149 walking past my bedroom where I was doing my revision 185 00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:28.410 and she just, she did look really sad. I said, 186 00:08:28.430 --> 00:08:30.250 are you okay? She goes, oh, I don't know. I 187 00:08:30.269 --> 00:08:33.679 don't think I can carry on. And he's just really sad. 188 00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:37.720 And I remember going, oh, you'll be fine, grandma. Carrying 189 00:08:37.820 --> 00:08:40.100 on with my revision. And I'm not saying it would 190 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.580 have made the difference if I'd have stopped and gone, whoa, 191 00:08:43.620 --> 00:08:45.759 hold on a minute. But you kind of wish you had. 192 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:50.419 And you do carry that. So that was a moment of, 193 00:08:50.769 --> 00:08:52.990 for sure, where I learned a lot about the world. 194 00:08:53.090 --> 00:08:55.259 And then it wasn't long after that I failed my A-levels. 195 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:59.659 So again, I had to learn, not through any desire 196 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:01.519 or design, I had to learn to dust myself off. 197 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:04.879 So then really quickly went back to school. The day 198 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:06.159 I went back to school, there was a letter from 199 00:09:06.220 --> 00:09:08.799 a local TV channel looking for politics students to go 200 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:11.110 and work on a TV show just to offer their 201 00:09:11.129 --> 00:09:14.009 opinions at the weekend. I went there, explained that I'd 202 00:09:14.049 --> 00:09:16.230 failed my A-levels, that I was around and I was available, 203 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:19.889 worked basically for free, ended up doing bits of presenting. 204 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:21.700 ended up being offered a job. 205 00:09:22.179 --> 00:09:24.340 Was that something that had you previously been in? 206 00:09:24.460 --> 00:09:28.000 No, because that's ambition. And I didn't have any of that. 207 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:29.639 And I think it's just because I was a really 208 00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:32.799 late developer. Like I was physically a late developer, mentally 209 00:09:32.830 --> 00:09:35.389 a late developer. I was just like the kind of 210 00:09:35.509 --> 00:09:37.850 class clown, the kind of average kid at school that 211 00:09:37.870 --> 00:09:40.490 just made people laugh. Not very popular and you know, 212 00:09:40.529 --> 00:09:44.029 nothing special. So I certainly wouldn't have said I'm going 213 00:09:44.049 --> 00:09:46.909 to be a TV presenter. Also like Grace, I'm from 214 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:49.309 a small village in Norfolk. Like, People like me just 215 00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:52.190 don't be

TV presenters. That's how it felt at the time. 216 00:09:52.850 --> 00:09:57.639 But then I got offered a job, £ 6, 472 a year, 217 00:09:57.799 --> 00:10:00.740 if I remember correctly, was my starting salary. And then 218 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:02.580 one day I was at work and the phone rang 219 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:04.799 and it was a guy from the BBC and he said, 220 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:06.259 is that Jake Humphrey? I said, yeah. And he said, 221 00:10:06.299 --> 00:10:08.830 I saw some of your TV show that you were 222 00:10:08.850 --> 00:10:11.289 working on this weekend. You're a shining star in a 223 00:10:11.370 --> 00:10:15.919 sea of shit. Which I kind of thought... What a review. 224 00:10:15.980 --> 00:10:17.259 Yeah. Yeah, go on. 225 00:10:17.299 --> 00:10:18.879 As long as I was the shining star, not the 226 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:22.299 sea of shit, then I'm happy. And he invited me 227 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.419 down to London and I had a few meetings. They 228 00:10:24.460 --> 00:10:27.610 then launched the CBBC channel. I started on that as 229 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:31.450 a CBBC presenter. Like, couldn't believe it had this actually happened. 230 00:10:31.490 --> 00:10:35.190 I was a kids TV presenter. Amazing time there. The 231 00:10:35.210 --> 00:10:37.710 BBC then won the rights to Formula One, paid millions 232 00:10:37.730 --> 00:10:39.889 of pounds for them. And there was this feeling that 233 00:10:39.909 --> 00:10:42.009 they had to try and make their sports coverage a 234 00:10:42.009 --> 00:10:42.909 bit younger, a bit fresher. 235 00:10:42.950 --> 00:10:43.049 Yeah. 236 00:10:43.990 --> 00:10:47.389 I took that job. I got offered that job, accepted. 237 00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:47.529 It, obviously. 238 00:10:47.549 --> 00:10:47.830 Incredible. 239 00:10:47.870 --> 00:10:49.980 Sorry, how old were you at this stage? 240 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.620 By now, so I was like the A-level failure, two 241 00:10:52.659 --> 00:10:54.200 or three years in telly. So I was then in 242 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:57.340 my early 20s. I was eight years at CBBC. So 243 00:10:57.379 --> 00:11:00.179 now I'm like 29, probably. So it was quite young 244 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:01.110 to get that Formula One job. 245 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:02.080 Yeah, no, that's incredible. 246 00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:04.549 I did that for four years. And then we can 247 00:11:04.570 --> 00:11:06.210 talk about this in more detail, but walked away from 248 00:11:06.250 --> 00:11:10.620 the B, joined BT Sport. And then... I'm now sitting 249 00:11:10.649 --> 00:11:13.539 here with you. In the meantime, I started a production 250 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.500 company called The Whisper Group, which has now got about 251 00:11:16.500 --> 00:11:19.860 300 staff. It's pretty successful, based in West London. I've 252 00:11:19.899 --> 00:11:22.200 got a podcast called High Performance, a couple of kids, 253 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:25.100 an amazing wife.

I live back in Norfolk where it 254 00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:28.179 all started. Sometimes it's really nice just to stop and 255 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.320 look back on all that because you just don't do that, 256 00:11:30.379 --> 00:11:30.620 you know? 257 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:32.799 I think one of the, as you were kind of 258 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:35.919 saying earlier, one of the reasons we listen to podcasts 259 00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:38.779 is because we try and learn from people's mistakes or 260 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.879 failures before we've made them ourselves and obviously there's only 261 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.580 an element of that that you can do like you're 262 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:45.259 going to make the mistakes you're going to make but 263 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:47.330 it feels like your story is so one of those 264 00:11:47.389 --> 00:11:50.190 that like of course there's serendipity in there but it's 265 00:11:50.250 --> 00:11:52.830 also like it feels like it had to happen that 266 00:11:52.870 --> 00:11:55.909 way like it almost feels like you and I would 267 00:11:56.429 --> 00:11:58.750 like in terms of like the you know being fired 268 00:11:58.789 --> 00:12:01.360 from McDonald's or like the A-levels or any of those 269 00:12:01.419 --> 00:12:04.620 things it's like in order to grow your sense of 270 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:06.519 self to be at the point that you would be 271 00:12:08.110 --> 00:12:10.549 you know, just applying for that presenter role rather than 272 00:12:10.610 --> 00:12:13.629 from a point of ambition, actually from a point of 273 00:12:14.429 --> 00:12:16.289 kind of, well, what else am I going to do? 274 00:12:16.309 --> 00:12:18.529 This has just come through my door. I think is 275 00:12:18.570 --> 00:12:20.480 so important to look at because we kind of lots 276 00:12:20.509 --> 00:12:22.840 of the time see things always having to have risen 277 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:25.919 from ambition at that stage and actually like trusting the 278 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.940 process and trusting the like direction of your life in 279 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:30.360 terms of like what way you're going to go. I 280 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.919 do think it's incredibly important. 281 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:34.460 And I think it's hard at the moment to trust 282 00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:38.429 the direction because like, I'm a lot older than you. 283 00:12:38.509 --> 00:12:41.090 I'm in my forties, right? So when I was growing up, 284 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:45.409 thankfully there was no social media. There was no showing off. 285 00:12:45.649 --> 00:12:48.110 There was no way of knowing what everyone else was 286 00:12:48.149 --> 00:12:50.769 doing because all it would have done is make me 287 00:12:50.809 --> 00:12:53.360 feel even worse and even more inferior. And that's the 288 00:12:53.379 --> 00:12:55.620 real challenge I think for people now is that everywhere 289 00:12:55.629 --> 00:12:58.980 you look, you're shown perfection. Now, what I want people 290 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.720 to understand is that that perfection didn't come for free, right? 291 00:13:03.019 --> 00:13:06.480 You and your businesses haven't come for free. What I've 292 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.370 done hasn't come for free and I think now we 293 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:11.450 live in a world where people I get people not 294 00:13:11.509 --> 00:13:14.570 saying to me how should I start out in television 295 00:13:14.629 --> 00:13:17.129 they say how can I get a job presenting the 296 00:13:17.149 --> 00:13:19.769 Champions League or how can I be a Formula One 297 00:13:19.789 --> 00:13:21.610 presenter or how can I present match of the day 298 00:13:21.649 --> 00:13:23.409 and it's like well you have to do the work 299 00:13:24.009 --> 00:13:25.809 and actually the truth is a lot of the work 300 00:13:26.029 --> 00:13:28.870 is in just the being in the doing the failing 301 00:13:28.929 --> 00:13:32.169 the trying again and I know that there's a slight 302 00:13:32.210 --> 00:13:35.590 element of well you've been through it and you've failed 303 00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:37.230 and you've learned all these things. Why don't you just 304 00:13:37.289 --> 00:13:37.629 tell me? 305 00:13:37.990 --> 00:13:38.190 Yeah. 306 00:13:38.210 --> 00:13:39.230 That's kind of not enough. 307 00:13:39.490 --> 00:13:39.730 Yeah. 308 00:13:40.090 --> 00:13:42.649 No, but also you, like the actual experience in order 309 00:13:42.690 --> 00:13:44.669 to make you the person you were when you took 310 00:13:44.690 --> 00:13:48.480 that Formula One job, if that opportunity had been there 311 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:50.919 nine years earlier or eight years earlier or whenever it 312 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.559 is that you kind of got your first proper presenting job, 313 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:56.529 you wouldn't have been in the right place to take it. 314 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:57.960 Like you wouldn't have been experienced enough. 315 00:13:57.980 --> 00:14:00.960 All my mistakes came on this tiny channel. It's called 316 00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:01.899 Rapture Television. 317 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:02.070 Mm. 318 00:14:02.570 --> 00:14:04.269 All my mistakes came there and then they came on 319 00:14:04.350 --> 00:14:06.950 Children's BBC. So I talk about it as being like 320 00:14:06.970 --> 00:14:09.549 a pilot getting your wings. What people need to do 321 00:14:09.620 --> 00:14:11.659 is realise you need to get your wings for life. 322 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.320 You need to do all of that stuff, which can 323 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:18.639 be sometimes frustrating. I remember when I really wanted to 324 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.139 be a sports presenter. I'd been maybe five years on 325 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:23.379 Children's BBC. I wanted to be a sports presenter. I 326 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.059 went for a meeting and explained this to them. And 327

00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:28.830 I thought it would be funny to say I failed 328 00:14:28.850 --> 00:14:31.629 my A-levels and I got fired from McDonald's. And the 329 00:14:31.669 --> 00:14:34.700 person that I met with, they were responsible for finding 330 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:38.399 new presenters for BBC Sport. And they said, BBC Sport 331 00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:42.639 doesn't employ people like you. In other words, you haven't 332 00:14:42.659 --> 00:14:45.600 got a degree. You haven't, you're not a trained journalist. 333 00:14:45.659 --> 00:14:48.600 You haven't played football or rugby or cricket to an 334 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.740 elite level. You're not what we're looking for. And I 335 00:14:51.820 --> 00:14:54.759 think that that was actually a really brilliant message for 336 00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:56.600 me because it meant that I had to find another way. Now, 337 00:14:57.139 --> 00:14:59.340 if that had happened to me, and I hadn't done 338 00:14:59.379 --> 00:15:01.360 the years on Children's BBC, and I hadn't had the 339 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:05.139 A-level failure, and I hadn't had those setbacks from McDonald's 340 00:15:05.230 --> 00:15:06.970 and having to deal with grief in the way that 341 00:15:06.990 --> 00:15:09.210 I had, I think that that would have just derailed me. 342 00:15:09.549 --> 00:15:11.450 But instead, it just energized me. And I thought, fine, 343 00:15:11.870 --> 00:15:15.309 I will absolutely show you what I should be doing. 344 00:15:15.610 --> 00:15:18.700 And I actually ended up getting an ISDN kit, which 345 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:21.259 is the old way of sort of broadcasting from matches. 346 00:15:21.940 --> 00:15:23.840 And I used to earn like £ 100 on a Saturday 347 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.539 to go and report for the radio, for BBC Radio. 348 00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:28.769 And I was on CBBC at the time where I 349 00:15:28.809 --> 00:15:30.590 thought my career had taken me to a certain point. 350 00:15:31.230 --> 00:15:34.289 And it was going right back to the beginning and saying, fine, 351 00:15:34.309 --> 00:15:36.789 let me show you. So I think that's the other 352 00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:39.950 important takeaway is that like the work doesn't stop. You know, 353 00:15:40.009 --> 00:15:43.269 you have had an amazing career, right? The truth is, 354 00:15:43.950 --> 00:15:46.269 if you wanted to go and totally pivot in another direction, 355 00:15:46.330 --> 00:15:48.269 you'd have to be humble enough to go, well, let 356 00:15:48.309 --> 00:15:49.090 me start at the beginning. 357 00:15:49.429 --> 00:15:50.029 A hundred percent. 358 00:15:50.049 --> 00:15:50.830 Show you where it works. 359 00:15:50.909 --> 00:15:51.490 Yeah. 360 00:15:52.049 --> 00:15:54.210 And I think one of the important messages there as 361 00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:57.220 well is like, I do think social media has positioned 362 00:15:57.259 --> 00:16:01.480 us in a way where we want so much instant gratification. 363 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:03.090 And I'll be the first person to say that because 364 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:06.149 I think you can see by the speed of my career, 365 00:16:06.230 --> 00:16:09.690 I'm very much a, I want something and I want 366 00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:14.529 it now. I don't say that in a derogatory sense. 367 00:16:14.590 --> 00:16:16.629 I'm very determined and I'll make something happen and I'm 368 00:16:16.669 --> 00:16:19.820 very spurred. I'm quite impulsive in the way that like, 369 00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:21.919 I'll decide to do something and then spend three days 370 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:24.090 making it happen or, you know, like back to back 371 00:16:24.139 --> 00:16:26.149 and through the night and all of this. But I 372 00:16:26.230 --> 00:16:29.250 also think that like, what's really important when you look 373 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:31.970 at that is it's like, sure you can do that, 374 00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:36.149 but like, remember careers are long and you're also by 375 00:16:36.230 --> 00:16:39.240 wanting some things like the chapter 20 now, rather than 376 00:16:39.259 --> 00:16:41.820 the chapter one, you're probably not giving yourself like a 377 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:43.919 great backing to be able to get there. Like if 378 00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:48.240 I went back and did it again, I would 100% 379 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.120 get more formal experience in what I then wanted to do. 380 00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:53.179 But at the time, I wanted to make a lot 381 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:54.559 of money, I wanted to do well, I wanted to 382 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:56.600 grow on social media, and so what I did was 383 00:16:56.620 --> 00:16:59.769 do anything to make that happen. But actually, realistically, I 384 00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:02.389 think if I'd been able to be a little more, 385 00:17:02.409 --> 00:17:05.069 a little slower, a little less impulsive, and a little 386 00:17:05.109 --> 00:17:08.589 more about building the foundations... I would have felt a 387 00:17:08.660 --> 00:17:10.990 lot more confident to be able to grow in the 388 00:17:11.029 --> 00:17:12.829 direction I needed to grow in. Like I think I 389 00:17:12.849 --> 00:17:15.390 could have learned so much from working in private equity 390 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:17.809 or from working in a startup or from, you know, 391 00:17:17.910 --> 00:17:19.710 going to the production side of fashion or whatever it 392 00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:23.119 might be. And I do think that there's this like, 393 00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:27.799 because we want this instant gratification, it's often against our 394 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.759 best interests. And of course I can say that now 395 00:17:30.779 --> 00:17:31.819 because I'm sitting in the position I'm in. 396 00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:32.619 But it's worked out well for you though. 397 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.220 Yeah, of course it has. But I also think that like, 398 00:17:36.259 --> 00:17:38.480

There are also times now where I'm kind of very 399 00:17:38.539 --> 00:17:42.380 much like, I rushed into the, like, you know, not 400 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:44.230 everything at all. Like I love the position I'm in. 401 00:17:44.289 --> 00:17:47.049 I think I'm in a very powerful position with like Tala, 402 00:17:47.069 --> 00:17:49.130 for example, in the way that I'm their target customer. 403 00:17:49.150 --> 00:17:50.750 So yeah, sure. I am probably the best person to 404 00:17:50.789 --> 00:17:52.490 be sitting in that room and being like, no, we 405 00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:54.910 want that on the leggings. But ultimately when it comes 406 00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:57.099 to some of the other things, I think I rushed 407 00:17:57.140 --> 00:17:59.980 it a lot because I wanted it to look like 408 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.660 the finished product before it was there. This kind of 409 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.299 fake it till you make it thing. And only now 410 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:06.960 I'm able to kind of like sit here and say 411 00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:10.019 those things because it worked out. Whereas like I could 412 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:11.869 have been sitting here and saying those things were like 413 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.930 something had gone bankrupt or like the idea hadn't worked 414 00:18:15.009 --> 00:18:16.829 or I didn't what I was terrible at running a 415 00:18:16.869 --> 00:18:19.089 company and terrible at managing people or whatever it might 416 00:18:19.130 --> 00:18:23.650 have been. But I think that kind of like the mistakes, 417 00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:26.180 the failures, but also just the experience as a whole 418 00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:29.980 is like so important to have in your like toolbox 419 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.319 of like things that you could use to then confront 420 00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:35.740 the issues that you come and you know and I 421 00:18:35.779 --> 00:18:38.759 would say mine in particular having had like a I'd 422 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.819 say eight year career now would be like the grand 423 00:18:41.859 --> 00:18:45.569 total of it is like almost every problem I come 424 00:18:45.609 --> 00:18:48.890 across is like a very new problem that I haven't 425 00:18:48.910 --> 00:18:51.730 had lower risk experience of if that makes sense. 426 00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:55.430 But you're also a great advocate for the fact there's 427 00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:57.930 more than one way to do something I mean I 428 00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:03.539 I would say that I've had a great career but 429 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.470 quite a slow career So I got into telly at 18. 430 00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:08.269 I'm still in telly at 44 and I've still got 431 00:19:08.309 --> 00:19:11.710 loads of things I want to do. The production company, Whisper, 432 00:19:11.769 --> 00:19:15.589 that I've got has grown organically. We've never taken any funding. 433 00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:18.769 We've never had any debt. I'm really proud with where 434 00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:21.029 it is. I love the fact that it just grew 435 00:19:21.130 --> 00:19:23.789 slowly and it kind of grew organically. There was no 436 00:19:23.829 --> 00:19:28.650 grand plan. And I love that. Even my podcast, you know, 437 00:19:29.069 --> 00:19:30.890 for the first year, it was just a kind of 438 00:19:30.910 --> 00:19:33.190 almost like a side hobby and high performance is sort 439 00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:35.519 of slowly growing. become more of that and then I 440 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:40.329 see like amazing new podcasts now that are doing now 441 00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:43.329 what we've spent three years building up to do but 442 00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:45.109 I'm kind of okay with that because I think that 443 00:19:46.089 --> 00:19:48.430 it's really brilliant for people to see people like me 444 00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:51.319 that actually maybe need to take it slow, but also 445 00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:54.700 see people like you, your calling card, what your USP is, 446 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:59.450 what your unique ability is, is like your conviction of 447 00:20:00.710 --> 00:20:04.109 your decision-making and your energy. And actually that's brilliant because 448 00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.450 we can all be really sure in our decision making 449 00:20:07.490 --> 00:20:09.029 even if we've got loads of doubts under the surface 450 00:20:09.049 --> 00:20:10.769 we can still go i'm going to decide this right 451 00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:13.170 that's the first thing the second thing is as long 452 00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:14.369 as we get enough sleep we should all have the 453 00:20:14.410 --> 00:20:17.009 energy yeah so i think you are massively inspirational for 454 00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:19.450 people in that yeah i could do with the way 455 00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:21.210 that jake's done it and kind of try and find 456 00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:23.109 my path and try and work it out as i 457 00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:26.630 go or i could just literally be grace and go 458 00:20:27.150 --> 00:20:29.470 this is what i'm going to do because actually i 459 00:20:30.589 --> 00:20:32.009 know it's easy to go you might not work out 460 00:20:32.049 --> 00:20:35.799 well both way of operating may well not work out. 461 00:20:35.819 --> 00:20:39.000 There is no answer here. It's just kind of don't 462 00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:42.309 overthink it. If you're an energy bunny, be super energetic. 463 00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:44.910 If you're a cautious, careful, slow, I need all the 464 00:20:44.950 --> 00:20:48.769 answers before I make a potentially dangerous decision, then be that. 465 00:20:48.869 --> 00:20:51.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. No, I think that's incredibly important. 466 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:51.980 Yeah. 467 00:20:52.309 --> 00:20:55.349 Like a really, really important differentiation there. And I think realistically, 468 00:20:55.490 --> 00:20:57.150 I never would have not done it

the way I 469 00:20:57.170 --> 00:20:58.450 did it because that's who I am. 470 00:20:58.470 --> 00:20:59.329 And that's how I do things. And I bet you 471 00:20:59.349 --> 00:21:01.349 still do it today, right? You still go hell for 472 00:21:01.369 --> 00:21:02.130 leather all the time, right? 473 00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:04.130 Oh my God. Like, as in like, I know what's 474 00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:05.529 good for me and I know what's bad for me. 475 00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:08.670 And yet you will see me like, like I'll have 476 00:21:08.710 --> 00:21:11.299 an idea at, you know, 3am and I'll make it 477 00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:14.460 happen by the next day. And like all wheels will 478 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.220 be in motion and all of this. And like, it is. 479 00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:18.200 But that's not for everyone. No, of course. And I 480 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.259 think the danger is these days, everyone wants to tell 481 00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:23.180 everyone that their way of doing it Is the right way, 482 00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:24.680 that survivorship bias thing. 483 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.259 I think what I don't want to happen is by 484 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:29.579 me having the platform that I have, that being the 485 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:31.759 only acceptable way to make that happen, which I think 486 00:21:31.819 --> 00:21:34.720 is what I'm trying to say by that differentiation. I 487 00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:36.980 also think that like being careful when you are the 488 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.119 type of person that I am, being careful in the 489 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:43.180 way that time's not going to change based on the 490 00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:45.930 fact that you've got to success quicker. You're still then 491 00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:48.230 going to have that. If you burn yourself out, you're 492 00:21:48.250 --> 00:21:50.049 going to burn yourself out and you're going to take 493 00:21:50.089 --> 00:21:51.930 a long time to be able to get out of 494 00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:55.410 that if ever. And I feel like knowing where your 495 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.250 downfalls in that way are very, very important. Because personally, 496 00:21:58.289 --> 00:22:00.329 I would say that I go far too fast and 497 00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:03.410 I do burn myself out to like, you know, and 498 00:22:03.450 --> 00:22:05.519 it's not, it's not good for me. And I think 499 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:07.599 that like, that's all well and good. Me saying that 500 00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:10.240 sitting here and being like, you know, whatever position I'm 501 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:11.680 in and then being able to be like, but don't 502 00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:14.519 burn yourself out. Like, you know, of course I can 503 00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:17.480 say that, but I do think it is also important to, 504 00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:21.190 you know, that's, it's not, It's definitely not always a strength. 505 00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:24.569 And

I think just seeing the fruits of that success 506 00:22:25.089 --> 00:22:28.369 on social media, on my platforms or whatever, without caveating 507 00:22:28.430 --> 00:22:30.750 it with that and being like, you know, I don't 508 00:22:30.789 --> 00:22:32.529 really have balance. There's like a lot of, you know, 509 00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:33.950 all of those things I think is important. 510 00:22:34.609 --> 00:22:42.109 What the world doesn't need is another dynamic, entrepreneurial, successful, wealthy, 511 00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:46.079 awesome young man or young woman. making everyone else feel 512 00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:48.339 like they're not doing enough. Sure. That's like the worst 513 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.740 conversation that we can have on my podcast, on your podcast, 514 00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:56.269 on any platform. What there isn't enough of is people 515 00:22:56.710 --> 00:23:00.470 in other people's lives saying, just take your time, just 516 00:23:00.529 --> 00:23:02.349 enjoy it. You know, you're going to be on the 517 00:23:02.410 --> 00:23:04.549 earth for 70 years, right? You don't need to achieve 518 00:23:04.569 --> 00:23:07.670 everything in the first 21. That's the risk. That's the danger. 519 00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:09.900 And you know, you're great at being honest and saying, well, 520 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.200 it leaves me feeling burnt out. It leaves me feeling 521 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.279 anxious and stressed. I sometimes don't feel I've got the 522 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.200 toolkit because I haven't lived those experiences. It's a very 523 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.150 interesting conversation because I do think we laud the young, 524 00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:23.869 early successful entrepreneur. 525 00:23:23.910 --> 00:23:26.230 Oh my God, 100%. And also like, I think that we, 526 00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:29.809 it's the same with like the kind of girl boss 527 00:23:30.190 --> 00:23:33.230 kind of rhetoric and like all of the, you know, 528 00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.289 we love to see success stories that are against the 529 00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:38.750 norm because to us it makes us, you know, we're 530 00:23:38.809 --> 00:23:42.630 able to celebrate it more. So, you know, young successful woman. 531 00:23:42.670 --> 00:23:45.369 So like, like whatever it might be, it's easier to 532 00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:49.750 celebrate that and almost not glorify it too much. Cause 533 00:23:49.769 --> 00:23:51.589 I don't think the concept can be glorified too much, 534 00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:55.490 but in terms of like giving that qualities that it 535 00:23:55.549 --> 00:23:58.470 doesn't actually have in terms or like taking away the 536 00:23:58.509 --> 00:24:01.170 fact that there would be any negatives there just to 537 00:24:01.210 --> 00:24:03.900 celebrate that kind of specific thing, which is why I 538 00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:05.579 think it's important to kind of be able to talk 539 00:24:05.619 --> 00:24:08.349 about the Not so great parts. 540 00:24:08.390 --> 00:24:08.589 Yeah. 541 00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:11.150 Not from a kind of like self-flagellating, like being like, oh, 542 00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:13.230 but you know, life is really hard. It's not like, 543 00:24:13.289 --> 00:24:15.650 it's not that. It's just actually being like, you know, 544 00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:19.150 there's always going to be the flip side. I want 545 00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:22.450 to talk about your starting up of the production company. 546 00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:22.549 Yeah. 547 00:24:22.569 --> 00:24:24.450 Because to get a company to a point where it's 548 00:24:24.509 --> 00:24:29.930 got 300 team members is absolutely unbelievable. When did you 549 00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:33.500 start that and what was the kind of idea for that? 550 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:35.500 I love talking about this. 551 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:35.880 Mm-hmm. 552 00:24:36.190 --> 00:24:41.740 Because I do believe that entrepreneurial people just, they, the 553 00:24:41.779 --> 00:24:43.240 one thing I will be really clear about is I 554 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.779 think that they are risk takers. They are gamblers. They are, 555 00:24:46.539 --> 00:24:50.099 you know, they're constantly buying a lottery ticket. They're constantly 556 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.980 making a bet. Now there's a chance and you would 557 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.539 have been through many bets and chances in your life 558 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:56.279 that haven't paid off. 559 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:56.559 Right. 560 00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:58.960 It's the one that does pay off. That is the 561 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.029 one that you, that, everyone at Lawton is excited about. 562 00:25:02.109 --> 00:25:05.250 But you mustn't stop taking these risks just because you've 563 00:25:05.269 --> 00:25:07.970 had a few that don't pay off. So I was 564 00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:12.650 working in Formula One between 2009 and 2012. And the 565 00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:15.730 BBC moved the sports department to Manchester. And I was 566 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.059 working with this amazing guy called Sunil Patel, who is 567 00:25:19.099 --> 00:25:22.140 still the CEO of Whisper today. And he's one of 568 00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:24.720 those rare people where I'd work with great creatives and 569 00:25:24.740 --> 00:25:27.559 I'd work with people who are brilliant organizers. I'd never 570 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:31.180 worked with someone who was hugely creative, massive ideas, but 571 00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:33.680 then got it done, just believed they could get it done. 572 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.529 And Sonal was that guy. So he said he didn't 573 00:25:36.549 --> 00:25:39.170 really fancy going to Manchester because BBC Sport was moving 574 00:25:39.210 --> 00:25:41.630 from London to Manchester at the time. And with this 575 00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:43.549 idea of buying a lottery ticket or being a bit 576

00:25:43.569 --> 00:25:45.690 of a gambler, I said, well, let's just set up 577 00:25:45.710 --> 00:25:48.930 a production company. Now, I didn't really have a grand 578 00:25:49.009 --> 00:25:51.809 plan for that. And again, don't think you need to 579 00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:54.170 put all the dots in place before you make that 580 00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:56.839 first decision. Just make the first decision for what it is. 581 00:25:57.500 --> 00:25:59.420 We didn't know we were going to be going 10 582 00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:01.819 years later, turning over... you know, probably close to a 583 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.809 hundred million dollars this year. That wasn't the plan. The 584 00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:06.950 plan was just, let's just set up a production company. 585 00:26:07.450 --> 00:26:10.950 So the two of us got together without even the 586 00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:12.750 name of a business. And we were lucky enough that 587 00:26:12.789 --> 00:26:15.650 we knew obviously loads of the teams in Formula One. 588 00:26:15.690 --> 00:26:17.730 So we went to meet with the Williams Formula One 589 00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:19.930 team and we said to them, look, you love the 590 00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:21.950 coverage on the BBC. It was winning lots of awards 591 00:26:21.970 --> 00:26:24.559 at the time. The viewing figures were really high. We said, 592 00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:27.430 Sonal is one of the brains behind the coverage. We 593 00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:29.529 would love to produce your content. And we will basically 594 00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:33.430 produce BBC level quality. We'll do it cheaper than you've 595 00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:36.460 already been paying people anyway. Because there was a lot 596 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:37.859 of people in that space at the time that were 597 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.079 just overcharging. They weren't, you know, we didn't think giving 598 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:43.880 fair quotes for the work. So we said, we will 599 00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.269 just be totally honest. We'll charge you what it costs 600 00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:48.910 plus 10% to cover our overheads. And that's what we'll do. 601 00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:51.450 And Williams took a chance on us. They said, okay, 602 00:26:51.490 --> 00:26:53.829 why don't you produce our content for the season? The 603 00:26:53.849 --> 00:26:56.440 two of us couldn't believe it. remember leaving their factory 604 00:26:56.700 --> 00:26:59.430 we pulled up in a lay-by next to their factory 605 00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:02.210 and got out and started dancing and then we were 606 00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:03.670 like this looks really bad if one of them comes 607 00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:05.650 out of the office and sees us dancing in a 608 00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:08.849 lay-by so then we started driving back and we were 609 00:27:08.869 --> 00:27:10.609 like we don't even have a name for the company 610 00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:13.170 we don't have an office we literally had nothing and 611 00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:15.309 he'd just been on a lad's holiday to a and 612 00:27:15.450 --> 00:27:17.009 been drinking a bar called whisper and he had the 613 00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:18.569 business card in his pocket and he said well let's 614 00:27:18.589 --> 00:27:21.210 just call it whisper and that was it that was 615 00:27:21.230 --> 00:27:21.890 the beginning. 616 00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.359 And just for clarification for people who might not have 617 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:27.930 background on like production companies, for example, was the aim 618 00:27:28.029 --> 00:27:31.890 to create their content for their organic platforms or was 619 00:27:31.950 --> 00:27:33.529 it to be able to create the content to then 620 00:27:33.609 --> 00:27:35.329 sell to say like a channel or something? 621 00:27:35.349 --> 00:27:39.720 So let's remember we're talking about 2010, 2011. So online 622 00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:42.299 social media content was nothing like it is now. Like 623 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:44.240 Twitter was kind of getting going, but it was pretty 624 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.440 much just updates. Like even photos were a tricky thing 625 00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:49.799 to put up. So what it was really, it was 626 00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:52.480 to produce content for them on behalf of their sponsors, 627 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:55.059 which could then be given to TV channels, used in 628 00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:00.039 their marketing material, used in their motorhome, just assets basically. 629 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.160 And that's how it all started. My wife worked on 630 00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:06.819 Strictly Come Dancing. She was a production manager. So she 631 00:28:06.859 --> 00:28:09.720 left her job to work on the business. She worked 632 00:28:09.769 --> 00:28:12.430 out of our back office. Sonal worked out of his 633 00:28:12.509 --> 00:28:15.829 study in his house. And it's a big risk for her. 634 00:28:15.849 --> 00:28:16.509 She left her job. 635 00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:18.009 Was she your wife at the time? 636 00:28:18.269 --> 00:28:19.130 She was my wife at the time. 637 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:23.289 Seems like less of a risk when there's the... Definitely 638 00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:25.029 less of a risk for her. Oh, my boyfriend's starting 639 00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:27.809 this production company and I'm going to quit my job. 640 00:28:27.829 --> 00:28:29.450 It's definitely less of a risk for her. 641 00:28:29.470 --> 00:28:32.269 No, no, no, that wasn't to belittle the fact that 642 00:28:32.289 --> 00:28:33.109 it was obviously. 643 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:33.579 Still a significant risk. 644 00:28:33.650 --> 00:28:35.160 It was the fact she was walking away from her 645 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.140 dream job which was working on Strictly Come Dancing. And 646 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.119 I'm like, can you walk away from Strictly just to 647 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.180 work on some

slightly random Formula One content? 648 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.019 Also for both of your risk as a family or 649 00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:49.809 a unit at that time to be completely undiversified. 650 00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:50.950 Totally totally we were we were all in at that 651 00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:54.490 point into this into this plan and what we actually 652 00:28:54.549 --> 00:28:57.130 found because you I think one of the great things 653 00:28:57.390 --> 00:28:59.440 about you know we've talked about doing things when you're 654 00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:01.059 young one of the great things about naivety and that 655 00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:02.759 would have been one of your superpowers for sure when 656 00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:05.720 you first started out was you just thought every meeting 657 00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:07.420 was going to be amazing every opportunity was going to 658 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.940 work it was all going to be fantastic because that's 659 00:29:10.009 --> 00:29:14.009 how wonderful being naive is be naive it's okay don't 660 00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:17.640 fully educate yourself And we were naive, totally naive to 661 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.410 think that we would meet one person, get some work 662 00:29:20.450 --> 00:29:23.490 and then others and others. The reality was you win 663 00:29:23.509 --> 00:29:25.609 that first contract, you put all your effort into making 664 00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:28.049 that content. So you haven't got time to find the 665 00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:31.069 next bit of work. So eventually we were like, we 666 00:29:31.130 --> 00:29:37.609 need more help with pitching, meeting people, commercial contacts, all 667 00:29:37.630 --> 00:29:39.529 this sort of stuff. And we worked with David Coulthard, 668 00:29:39.549 --> 00:29:39.970 who was a former. 669 00:29:40.190 --> 00:29:40.650 One driver. 670 00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:43.730 He'd just retired. He was working on the BBC coverage. 671 00:29:43.750 --> 00:29:45.049 And we said to him, would you like to be 672 00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:47.029 part of our company? And he actually said, what would 673 00:29:47.049 --> 00:29:50.039 it cost me? We hadn't even considered, we were so 674 00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:52.440 naive to this whole thing. We hadn't even considered that 675 00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:54.630 he would pay to have some of our business. 676 00:29:54.690 --> 00:29:57.470 We thought we'd have to convince him. 677 00:29:57.509 --> 00:30:00.029 We were like, we'd have to convince him to have 678 00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:02.289 some of our business. So then we were like, well, 679 00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:04.670 how the hell do we decide what it costs? So 680 00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:06.809 Sunil said, well, I needed a new bathroom, which was 681 00:30:06.809 --> 00:30:08.349 15 grand. 682 00:30:09.069 --> 00:30:10.069 Big fan of the priority. 683 00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:10.369 Yeah. 684 00:30:10.549 --> 00:30:11.990 So Sunil said, well, why don't, if I can get 685 00:30:12.009 --> 00:30:14.150 a 15 grand, that'd be brilliant. So I said, okay, well, 686 00:30:14.170 --> 00:30:16.589 I'll have 15 grand as well. And we'll get, what 687 00:30:16.609 --> 00:30:17.970 should we give him? Sunil was like, I don't know, 688 00:30:17.970 --> 00:30:21.049 20% of the business. Like it's literally the best investment 689 00:30:21.089 --> 00:30:22.089 David Coulthard has ever made. 690 00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:24.849 Yeah, Christ alive, that's a return. 691 00:30:25.130 --> 00:30:28.250 So he got 20% of Whisper for his 30 grand 692 00:30:28.630 --> 00:30:29.890 and he was brilliant at. 693 00:30:30.029 --> 00:30:30.819 Are you still selling them? 694 00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:36.099 I've got something else you might want to invest in, 695 00:30:36.099 --> 00:30:40.099 but we can talk about that separately. So we started and. 696 00:30:42.930 --> 00:30:45.630 This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast 697 00:30:45.990 --> 00:30:48.549 brought to you by Monzo, Ireland's newest bank. 698 00:30:48.769 --> 00:30:51.319 Now we've mentioned more than once about the need for 699 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:54.019 more choice in Irish banking. 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Sign up today 710 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:23.819 by downloading the Monzo app. 711 00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:27.049 Monzo Bank Europe DAC, trading as Monzo, is regulated by 712 00:31:27.069 --> 00:31:29.369 the Central Bank of Ireland. Terms and conditions apply. 713 00:31:30.910 --> 00:31:35.490 Does your business have big ambitions? At Skillnet Ireland, we 714 00:31:35.529 --> 00:31:38.250 know the businesses that stay ahead are the ones that 715 00:31:38.289 --> 00:31:42.230 develop their people. As a government business support agency, we 716 00:31:42.289 --> 00:31:46.890 offer funded training and access to over 70 business networks nationwide. 717 00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:51.349 Join thousands of Irish businesses already investing. 718 00:31:50.930 --> 00:31:51.569 In their people. 719 00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:56.009 Big ambition takes skills. Visit skillnetireland.ie. 720 00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:03.470 ACAST recommends...

Hi, I'm Ryan Tuberty. 721 00:32:03.549 --> 00:32:05.990 And for those who don't know, I love books and 722 00:32:06.170 --> 00:32:08.589 I love a great story. And on my podcast, The 723 00:32:08.609 --> 00:32:11.470 Bookshelf with Ryan Tuberty, I sit down with fascinating people 724 00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:13.369 and we talk about the books that have shaped their 725 00:32:13.430 --> 00:32:16.009 lives and the stories behind them. We talk about the 726 00:32:16.029 --> 00:32:18.170 book they loved as a child, the book that brings 727 00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:20.680 them joy, and the book that changed their life. 728 00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:22.359 Over the seasons, I've chatted to. 729 00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:25.720 World leaders, cultural icons, sports stars, and some of my 730 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.759 favorite authors. Well, season five is now available. So if 731 00:32:28.779 --> 00:32:30.819 you love books, if you love stories, and you love 732 00:32:30.859 --> 00:32:34.180 great conversations, Come and join me on the bookshelf every Tuesday. 733 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.029 Watch on YouTube or indeed listen wherever you get your podcasts. 734 00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:41.569 Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including Red Room, 735 00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:44.630 Catch Up with Louise McSharry, and the one you're listening 736 00:32:44.650 --> 00:32:45.809 to right now. 737 00:32:50.130 --> 00:32:51.869 And we got loads of commercial work and the business 738 00:32:51.910 --> 00:32:53.829 built up to seven or eight people, but there was 739 00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:56.750 still an element of being unfulfilled because we were TV people. 740 00:32:57.390 --> 00:33:00.960 And we were still not making television. So we then thought, well, 741 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:03.039 let's go and meet all these TV channels and say, 742 00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:06.200 come on, let's make your content. And this was a really, 743 00:33:06.220 --> 00:33:09.220 really interesting time. And a lot of takeaways, you may 744 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.240 well have experienced this as well. Certainly people listening to 745 00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:14.240 this might take something from it. We would meet the 746 00:33:14.289 --> 00:33:17.569 people that we used to work for and they wouldn't 747 00:33:17.630 --> 00:33:20.130 commission us to produce their content, even though we'd worked 748 00:33:20.190 --> 00:33:23.589 with them and they were our former colleagues. Because they 749 00:33:23.609 --> 00:33:25.130 were saying, well, you haven't got a track record of 750 00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:28.960 making anything. And we're like, well, whisper hasn't but we 751 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.940 have so how do we solve this dilemma part of 752 00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:34.319 it i think was was we were the people that 753 00:33:34.339 --> 00:33:35.980 had taken the risk and we were the people that 754 00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:38.779 by then were probably a staff of as i say 755 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.170 about 10 people and maybe turning over two million pounds 756 00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:43.049 a year which to a lot of people like seems 757 00:33:43.069 --> 00:33:45.890 hugely successful right so there was probably an element of 758 00:33:45.950 --> 00:33:47.609 jealousy and um. 759 00:33:49.390 --> 00:33:52.630 And also kind of if you were colleagues, then why 760 00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:53.210 wouldn't it be them? 761 00:33:53.619 --> 00:33:54.240 I think so. 762 00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.200 If it was you, if you can do that, like 763 00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:57.839 I've done the same thing as you, so why aren't. 764 00:33:57.740 --> 00:33:59.519 They going to be you? Especially like senior colleagues who 765 00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:00.700 would look at us and go, hold on, you were 766 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.400 the kid from CBBC that was presenting Formula One. You 767 00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:04.589 were just an assistant producer. 768 00:34:04.730 --> 00:34:04.970 Sure. 769 00:34:05.230 --> 00:34:07.269 I'm an exec producer and now you're telling me that 770 00:34:07.470 --> 00:34:10.010 you can produce my content. So we have to find 771 00:34:10.050 --> 00:34:14.050 a way around this. And I've always been, actually it's 772 00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:16.440 a nonsense to say that, I now think this, I 773 00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:18.440 can't say I've always been, because as I've told you, 774 00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:19.199 I had no. 775 00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:19.949 Experience in this. 776 00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:24.829 I now realise every business is a recruitment business. It 777 00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:27.070 literally is the people. So we thought, well, let's just 778 00:34:27.110 --> 00:34:30.230 go and hire the best people that we can. So 779 00:34:30.250 --> 00:34:32.389 then we come back to this whole risk-taking thing. And 780 00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:36.199 I think that I had been armed against this risk 781 00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:37.800 by those things that had happened when I was younger. 782 00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.420 I sort of had this mindset of, well, what can 783 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:42.320 possibly go wrong? I've had some stuff happen and it 784 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.230 was kind of all right. My hell of a failure 785 00:34:45.769 --> 00:34:48.130 led to me working in television. The death of my 786 00:34:48.170 --> 00:34:50.909 grandma led to an understanding that life is really precious 787 00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:52.780 and you need to enjoy every moment. My sacking from 788 00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:57.579 McDonald's led to me working in television because I had 789 00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.980 the spare time rather than frying fries. I was saying, 790 00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:01.400 I've got loads of tall man's, can I come and 791 00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:03.179 work for you? So I ended up at Rapture TV. 792 00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:06.889 All of the negatives, literally all of them had been 793

00:35:06.909 --> 00:35:09.550 turned into positives. So it kind of meant, well, what 794 00:35:09.590 --> 00:35:11.530 can go wrong? So we went to the best people 795 00:35:11.570 --> 00:35:13.659 that we work with and we said, Why don't you 796 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:15.679 come and work for us? And again, we were like 797 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:22.219 totally shocked that these people would leave ITV, BBC, Channel 4, 798 00:35:22.219 --> 00:35:25.599 massive production companies. They'd leave those companies and come and 799 00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:28.099 work with us. But we knew that if we could 800 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.880 get those people, then we could get the job. We 801 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.500 could win the work. Now, again, this is a slightly 802 00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:36.780 risky way of doing it. Most businesses go, well, if 803 00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:39.000 we win the work, then we'll hire the people. We 804 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.579 had to do it the other way. We had to 805 00:35:40.699 --> 00:35:45.599 find another way to do it. And I think one 806 00:35:45.619 --> 00:35:47.179 of the things I'm most proud of is that we've 807 00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:51.199 always found a way of doing something that nobody else 808 00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:53.900 has thought of or isn't a very popular way of operating. Okay. 809 00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:55.280 Which I think is really vital. 810 00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:55.780 Yeah. 811 00:35:56.519 --> 00:36:00.039 I think, no, I think that is like a great 812 00:36:00.099 --> 00:36:02.570 origin story in the way of like, we've obviously I've 813 00:36:02.590 --> 00:36:04.570 had lots of different people on the podcast in terms 814 00:36:04.610 --> 00:36:07.130 of like the story of things starting up. But I 815 00:36:07.170 --> 00:36:11.909 think that a lot of the, entrepreneurship always seems like 816 00:36:11.989 --> 00:36:14.510 a big idea made happen rather than like a series 817 00:36:14.530 --> 00:36:16.769 of small ideas that kind of forms into what it 818 00:36:16.829 --> 00:36:19.889 ends up being which is this huge production company but 819 00:36:19.949 --> 00:36:22.530 actually it started from this one decision to like maybe 820 00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:24.170 try and get this one contract or. 821 00:36:24.130 --> 00:36:26.829 Yeah absolutely and by the way it's still this didn't 822 00:36:26.909 --> 00:36:29.449 solve the problem hiring these people was still a real 823 00:36:29.469 --> 00:36:32.010 challenge because what we found was instead of being told 824 00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:35.050 we'll never hire you we'd go in to try and 825 00:36:35.070 --> 00:36:36.489 win some work and they'd say well you've got some 826 00:36:36.510 --> 00:36:37.969 good people so we'll give you this work and it 827 00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:40.210 was like the the little bit of the contract you 828 00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:42.570 didn't really want to win. There was no value in it. 829 00:36:42.610 -->

00:36:44.869 It wasn't the elite stuff. And we wanted still to 830 00:36:44.889 --> 00:36:47.710 get the best stuff. And the other thing that was 831 00:36:47.750 --> 00:36:50.070 a bit of a challenge around this time was I 832 00:36:50.110 --> 00:36:52.929 was still working as a presenter. And it was important 833 00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:55.219 for me to make sure that my presenting was totally 834 00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:57.880 separate from the production company. Because what I didn't want 835 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.219 was this just to become a vehicle that was successful 836 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:05.559 or unsuccessful, depending on my presenting career being successful or unsuccessful. 837 00:37:05.619 --> 00:37:08.059 And I remember I got a phone call from the 838 00:37:08.099 --> 00:37:10.849 head of Channel 4 when they won the rights to 839 00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:14.289 Formula One. So just to put a timeline on this, 840 00:37:14.909 --> 00:37:18.190 I had, we'd set Whisper up in about 2011. I 841 00:37:18.250 --> 00:37:22.300 joined BT Sport at the end of 2012. And I 842 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:24.780 think at the end, towards the end of 2013, the 843 00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.019 BBC lost the rights to Formula One. They went to 844 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.360 Channel 4. So we'd been going at Whisper maybe a 845 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:29.920 couple of years. 846 00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:30.539 Right, right. 847 00:37:31.699 --> 00:37:33.530 And the head of Channel 4 rang and said to me, 848 00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:35.289 I want you to come and be the host of 849 00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:36.989 the Channel 4 coverage on Channel 4. And I said, well, 850 00:37:37.630 --> 00:37:39.840 I've just signed a contract with BT Sport. I'm really 851 00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:42.980 loyal to them. I don't feel comfortable walking away from 852 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.500 that contract. And then they said, well, if you accept 853 00:37:46.539 --> 00:37:53.210 the presenting job, then we could give Whisper the production work. Now, 854 00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:55.429 this is a multi-million pound contract we're talking about here. 855 00:37:55.590 --> 00:37:58.349 That is a juicy, juicy piece of work. 856 00:37:58.369 --> 00:38:00.389 So then I'm having to go to Sunol to tell 857 00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:02.289 him what happened. And he said, well, of course, you'll 858 00:38:02.349 --> 00:38:05.929 quit BT, present Formula One, and this will be, you know, 859 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.019 us made. So then I had to say, no, like, 860 00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:11.099 I'm really firm in the fact that what I do 861 00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:13.019 is totally separate. We have to win this on merit. 862 00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:15.420 And I still think there'll be people in the industry 863 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.460 that don't think we won this on merit. But we 864 00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:19.380 absolutely did. And do you know what we did? We 865 00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:21.719 went to all of our amazing contacts in Formula One 866 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:23.699 who were working for the Beeb and who were going 867 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:25.099 to be available. And we said to all of them, 868 00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:28.219 agree to only work with us, only work with Whisper. 869 00:38:29.139 --> 00:38:31.760 Channel 4 were explicit. They said, we won't give you 870 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:33.420 this contract. The only way we'd get it, it was 871 00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:35.539 if I came with it. And so we were up 872 00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:38.239 against a few other really big production companies, to win 873 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.340 the work. And so we actually went to all of 874 00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.260 these people and said, sign this bit of paper that 875 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.840 says you'll work with us or you'd love to work 876 00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:46.469 with Whisper and we'll make you part of our big package. 877 00:38:46.929 --> 00:38:49.349 The truth is they could have worked for anyone. 878 00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:50.070 Yeah, you can't. 879 00:38:50.329 --> 00:38:52.670 Right, you can't control who and when people work. But 880 00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:54.389 the fact we'd gone and got all of these names, 881 00:38:55.170 --> 00:38:56.789 presented them to Channel 4, and I remember we put 882 00:38:56.849 --> 00:39:01.269 on the, we created like a beautiful colour booklet and 883 00:39:01.309 --> 00:39:05.179 it said on there like 500 people hours of 500 884 00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:07.659 years combined experience of working in formula one like we 885 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.659 were the most experienced people yeah we had to win 886 00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:13.250 it properly properly win it on merit and that was 887 00:39:13.429 --> 00:39:18.289 really the first big thing that we won which transformed 888 00:39:18.309 --> 00:39:21.449 the business and that was winning the rights to host 889 00:39:22.230 --> 00:39:25.190 and produce channel four's coverage of formula one and now 890 00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:27.849 we do we still do it we recently produced the 891 00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:30.639 lionesses for the bbc the whole of the women's euros 892 00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:34.340 we're producing the paris paralympics for channel four having just 893 00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:37.599 done the paralympics previously we work for uefa we work 894 00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:41.030 for fifa we we just commissioned the daytime quiz show 895 00:39:41.050 --> 00:39:43.369 with stephen fry we've got a chat show in america 896 00:39:43.389 --> 00:39:46.510 that we've done we've got another daytime show for itv 897 00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:49.880 we like the business it's just picking up big wins 898 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.989 everywhere yeah and it all came from naivety it all 899 00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:57.269 came from taking that leap of faith and it all 900 00:39:57.289 --> 00:40:00.269 came from trying to

find another way to solve the 901 00:40:00.309 --> 00:40:02.539 puzzle that no one else is solving in that way. 902 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:04.559 Yeah and it kind of sounds like a continuous like 903 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.159 one foot in front of the other and like a 904 00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:10.409 rerouting like someone saying someone creating a dead end And 905 00:40:10.449 --> 00:40:12.010 then you being like, right, okay, well, that's not the 906 00:40:12.050 --> 00:40:14.590 right way to do it. Let's go around this way. 907 00:40:14.630 --> 00:40:17.150 And you having that gut feeling that like, no, we're 908 00:40:17.190 --> 00:40:19.409 not going to get this purely through me presenting it. 909 00:40:19.469 --> 00:40:20.210 We're going to. 910 00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:21.050 Do this differently. 911 00:40:21.590 --> 00:40:25.599 Is like the conviction of that decision is, I mean, 912 00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:29.039 it's like really, really powerful and definitely... I don't think 913 00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.260 should be understated in terms of you being really clear 914 00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:34.179 what you wanted from the business and what you wanted 915 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:36.360 from that kind of contract if you were going to 916 00:40:36.380 --> 00:40:40.460 get it what do you think the biggest mistakes you 917 00:40:40.539 --> 00:40:43.659 made when building that company were. 918 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:47.320 You see this is a really hard one because I 919 00:40:47.389 --> 00:40:51.670 can I can talk about me making mistakes personally one 920 00:40:51.690 --> 00:40:55.110 of the real challenges for whisper is because we did 921 00:40:55.130 --> 00:40:59.199 it slowly I don't I can't think of any really 922 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:01.780 big mistakes that we made. Because I think you could 923 00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:05.170 argue that doing it really slowly, not taking on any 924 00:41:05.210 --> 00:41:08.710 investment would be a mistake. I mean, we also became 925 00:41:08.750 --> 00:41:11.150 part of something called the Channel 4 Growth Fund, right? 926 00:41:11.849 --> 00:41:14.949 Which was where Channel 4 were looking for production companies 927 00:41:15.050 --> 00:41:17.349 who were small but had more potential than they were 928 00:41:17.409 --> 00:41:22.420 realizing to grow. And they invested in us. Now you 929 00:41:22.460 --> 00:41:25.559 could say that was a mistake because they paid a 930 00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:27.699 really small amount for their stake and they sold it 931 00:41:27.780 --> 00:41:31.860 for a profit. which was great for them. But actually, 932 00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:35.389 I believe that Channel 4 totally transformed our business. So 933 00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:38.929 you can't always put the financial value of something at 934 00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:41.469 the centre of what you do. And I know this 935 00:41:41.510 --> 00:41:45.989 sounds like ridiculous, Grace, but Sunil is such a brilliant CEO. 936 00:41:46.409 --> 00:41:49.960 The business has been so fascinating to watch it grow. 937 00:41:50.139 --> 00:41:54.519 And I can't think of any big mistakes that we've made. 938 00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:59.420 The biggest thing we've done is to bring someone on 939 00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:03.739 board with a Formula One mindset in David Coulthard because 940 00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.300 the exacting standards that he brings with him. We run 941 00:42:06.340 --> 00:42:10.650 ourselves like a motor racing team, like an elite sports outfit. 942 00:42:11.190 --> 00:42:13.110 That belief that they can do anything and they just 943 00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:14.849 make it happen. You know, make it happen is one 944 00:42:14.889 --> 00:42:16.769 of the mottos of the business. And we do everything 945 00:42:16.789 --> 00:42:19.989 we can to just make it happen. You know, we 946 00:42:20.050 --> 00:42:22.969 produced an amazing opening VT last year with Tom Cruise. 947 00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:23.289 Mm-hmm. 948 00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:25.519 Because we were just like, well, let's just make it happen. 949 00:42:25.539 --> 00:42:27.320 Let's just call Tom Cruise's office and see if it 950 00:42:27.340 --> 00:42:29.860 can happen. And lo and behold, the next thing we know, 951 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:33.230 Tom Cruise is personally calling the producer who's making the 952 00:42:33.250 --> 00:42:35.010 film at Whisper going, right, I've got some great ideas. 953 00:42:35.030 --> 00:42:37.130 Let's do this. He flies in in his own helicopter, 954 00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:39.570 films with us for a day and then shoots off again. 955 00:42:40.929 --> 00:42:44.070 Classic Tom. Classic Tom. As I would if I was 956 00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:48.900 Tom Cruise. Like thinking big, investing in people, keeping culture 957 00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:50.539 at the heart of what you do and trying to 958 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.059 do the right thing is also really important. I think, 959 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.159 I just want to call out trying to do the 960 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.110 right thing as well because we are really, really passionate 961 00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:05.869 about equality. So we have an almost 50% female workforce. 962 00:43:06.570 --> 00:43:09.849 We have women in a really high position within the business. 963 00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:13.369 The CEO of the business is the Asian son of 964 00:43:13.550 --> 00:43:16.480 a news agents in Twickenham. Those people are totally underrepresented 965 00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:19.500 in our industry. When we produced the Paralympics, it was 966 00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.059 important for us to make sure that the workforce behind 967 00:43:23.099 --> 00:43:26.010 the camera was We're disabled. Traditionally, it's just been the 968 00:43:26.030 --> 00:43:28.010 people in front of the camera, which to us felt 969 00:43:28.550 --> 00:43:32.250 kind of disingenuous. We run lots of scholarships with local 970

00:43:32.289 --> 00:43:34.969 universities and local colleges and the local area where we're 971 00:43:34.989 --> 00:43:37.789 based in West London to bring people into the business 972 00:43:37.889 --> 00:43:40.929 who don't normally get a chance in television. We run 973 00:43:40.989 --> 00:43:43.800 open days where anyone can apply to come and meet 974 00:43:43.889 --> 00:43:45.380 us and we can try and get them into the business. 975 00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:49.099 And I think that what that then brings us is 976 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.440 that real cognitive diversity, that diversity of thought, that different opinion. 977 00:43:54.110 --> 00:43:56.409 rather than us trying to produce content for a certain 978 00:43:56.429 --> 00:43:58.289 group of people that we think they want, let's get 979 00:43:58.349 --> 00:44:00.699 those people in and get them to produce the content 980 00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.360 that they know they would want to watch. And I 981 00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:07.159 think if you can do what's right, then I think 982 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.719 that can be transformational for a business because actually it 983 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:13.260 kind of means that whether you hit your numbers financially 984 00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:15.820 or you don't, to know that you're doing things in 985 00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.010 the right way actually carries a real value and I 986 00:44:19.030 --> 00:44:21.670 think other people see it. And I actually think it's 987 00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:23.760 hard to put value on it I think that's been 988 00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:25.480 a real game changer for us as a business that 989 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:26.659 people from the outside look at it and go, oh 990 00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:27.119 my goodness. 991 00:44:27.449 --> 00:44:27.699 Yeah. 992 00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:29.730 They really do put their money where their mouth is. Yeah. 993 00:44:29.769 --> 00:44:32.610 I mean, I think that's incredibly valuable. As you say, 994 00:44:32.630 --> 00:44:35.469 I think you can tell companies that do that versus 995 00:44:35.730 --> 00:44:36.889 companies that don't do that. 996 00:44:36.949 --> 00:44:38.710 And actually... Lots of them say they do, right? 997 00:44:38.769 --> 00:44:39.289 Yeah, sure. 998 00:44:39.369 --> 00:44:42.659 And like everyone has a sustainability statement and an inclusivity 999 00:44:42.699 --> 00:44:44.780 statement and like, and all of the, like, this is 1000 00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:47.019 what we're trying to do to, you know, whatever it 1001 00:44:47.059 --> 00:44:50.019 might be. But actually something like a TV in particular 1002 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:54.420 that is incredibly hard to get into is especially without 1003 00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:57.340 any sort of kind of nepotism, which we know is 1004 00:44:57.380 --> 00:45:00.380 kind of rife in that type of industry, the actual 1005 00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:05.849 like positive moves in that way of actually like going

1006 00:45:05.929 --> 00:45:08.010 out of your way to ensure that that's the case. 1007 00:45:08.070 --> 00:45:10.269 I mean, when you're saying that from the perspective of 1008 00:45:10.329 --> 00:45:12.590 someone who was told we don't hire people like you 1009 00:45:12.889 --> 00:45:13.750 and from the point. 1010 00:45:13.610 --> 00:45:15.920 Where actually you've got your first. 1011 00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:18.940 Yeah, like as in you understand how important that is 1012 00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.730 because you... were once put in the box of actually 1013 00:45:22.989 --> 00:45:24.369 and I'm not saying that's not to say that other 1014 00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:26.269 people don't understand it but it's in a way of 1015 00:45:26.289 --> 00:45:29.849 like in the same way as I want young women 1016 00:45:30.070 --> 00:45:32.010 in the room to be able to create clothes for 1017 00:45:32.050 --> 00:45:36.090 young women because I'm like sure it could be you 1018 00:45:36.110 --> 00:45:38.429 know we could have an all-male board and it could 1019 00:45:38.489 --> 00:45:41.820 be whatever it might be but actually like I know 1020 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.079 it's possible because I'm the one doing it and I 1021 00:45:44.139 --> 00:45:46.659 know why I feel so strongly about this sports bra 1022 00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:48.820 or whatever it might be. Who am I to say 1023 00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:51.699 that I'm the only person who can flip that trend 1024 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.610 in terms of being the person who's making the decisions, 1025 00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.969 whether it's financial, whether it's product, whatever it might be. 1026 00:45:56.989 --> 00:45:59.210 I want to talk about high performance. 1027 00:45:59.550 --> 00:46:01.210 You are high performance. I mean, what is there to say? 1028 00:46:03.269 --> 00:46:06.010 I want to talk about the podcast, the decision to 1029 00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:08.949 start that. Where did that come into the whole kind 1030 00:46:08.989 --> 00:46:10.449 of production process? 1031 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:16.019 Company journey yeah so high performance is totally separate from 1032 00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:17.719 whisper right and i think that's the other thing that 1033 00:46:17.780 --> 00:46:20.960 i really enjoy is a bit of diversification um i 1034 00:46:20.980 --> 00:46:22.699 said i'd come on to it later now it's probably 1035 00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:24.659 a good time to talk about it like when i 1036 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:25.099 had been. 1037 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:29.820 At the bbc for for cbbc for eight years that 1038 00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:32.199 said 12 years i was at the bbc kids telly 1039 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:35.400 and formula one like when i decided to leave the 1040 00:46:35.420 --> 00:46:40.039 bbc my contract was four more years of Formula One, 1041 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.460 World Cups, Olympics, Commonwealth Games, match of the day, match 1042 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.980

of the day two. I was hosting the one show 1043 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:49.420 at the time. I was working on all the big 1044 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.809 royal events for the BBC events team. Like if you 1045 00:46:52.829 --> 00:46:55.909 were to create the dream TV presenter contract, that was 1046 00:46:55.949 --> 00:47:00.849 probably the contract. But when I left Rapture TV, I 1047 00:47:00.869 --> 00:47:02.650 had a cool boss there. And I said to him, 1048 00:47:02.670 --> 00:47:04.840 I'm going to go to London and try and get 1049 00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:07.690 a job. with you know this guy who's called me 1050 00:47:07.730 --> 00:47:09.349 from children's bbc see if it works out and he 1051 00:47:09.389 --> 00:47:11.650 said i love that you're taking that risk he said 1052 00:47:11.670 --> 00:47:14.849 just never sit in the comfy chair and i remember 1053 00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:17.170 those words ringing in my ears when i had this 1054 00:47:17.230 --> 00:47:19.010 amazing job offer from the bbc but then at the 1055 00:47:19.050 --> 00:47:22.340 same time an offer from bt sport to go there 1056 00:47:22.539 --> 00:47:24.800 and present their football coverage and it would have been 1057 00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:26.000 the easiest thing in the world to stay at the 1058 00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:27.699 beep for another four years but i thought you know 1059 00:47:27.739 --> 00:47:30.719 what i'm not going to sit in the comfy chair 1060 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:33.630 i'm going to take a risk And I was full 1061 00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:36.289 of fear. I remember walking into an office about two 1062 00:47:36.329 --> 00:47:38.789 or three weeks after I joined BT Sport and I'd 1063 00:47:38.809 --> 00:47:41.150 walked away from the oldest and most famous broadcaster on 1064 00:47:41.170 --> 00:47:43.409 the planet. And I walked into a room and there 1065 00:47:43.429 --> 00:47:46.090 were six people sitting around a desk. And that was 1066 00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:50.820 the entirety of BT Sport. We were talking about opening titles, music, 1067 00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:54.039 where the studio should be, what the studio should look like, 1068 00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:56.719 what content we were going to put on. It was 1069 00:47:56.780 --> 00:48:00.769 like going from the world's greatest university back to like 1070 00:48:00.809 --> 00:48:02.710 a nursery or something. You know what I mean? You 1071 00:48:02.730 --> 00:48:05.050 went from the biggest and the best and the most 1072 00:48:05.090 --> 00:48:08.659 famous to something right in its infancy. It was the 1073 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:11.280 single most exciting thing that I've ever been involved in. 1074 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:12.260 Yeah. 1075 00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:15.300 But it's about taking the risk. It's about taking that leap, 1076 00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:17.300 doing something a little bit different. It was important for me. 1077 00:48:17.300 --> 00:48:19.590 What pulled you towards that? Was it the fact that 1078 00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.289 it was different? Was it purely that? Or was it 1079 00:48:23.590 --> 00:48:25.489 kind of the potential that you saw from it? 1080 00:48:25.789 --> 00:48:29.030 It was the chance to... Well, the chance to present 1081 00:48:29.050 --> 00:48:31.449 Premier League football comes around very infrequently. And as a 1082 00:48:31.489 --> 00:48:33.820 sports presenter, Premier League and Champions League football is like, 1083 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:36.199 to me, it's the elite. If you can present that, 1084 00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:39.139 then you're in a very select band of people. I 1085 00:48:39.139 --> 00:48:42.920 also had this impression that I felt I needed to 1086 00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.619 leave the BBC because I'd come through the ranks there. 1087 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:48.750 I'd come through Children's BBC to Formula One. I did 1088 00:48:48.869 --> 00:48:54.150 feel underappreciated and underloved. And I felt like almost the 1089 00:48:54.250 --> 00:48:57.010 only way to do that was... to walk away and 1090 00:48:57.030 --> 00:48:58.719 show someone else what I could do and deliver my 1091 00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:04.280 talents elsewhere. I also, we were having a baby, Florence, 1092 00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:06.900 our first child, and it was around that time as well. 1093 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:09.639 And so there was that playing on my mind about, 1094 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:12.500 if I sign this deal with the BBC, I'm going 1095 00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:16.070 to be away an awful lot. It was a whole combination. 1096 00:49:16.070 --> 00:49:18.230 Of risk to change when you're about to have. 1097 00:49:18.110 --> 00:49:20.269 A, it was a combination of things, but the biggest 1098 00:49:20.349 --> 00:49:22.719 pull was let's just take a chance on this. 1099 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:23.000 Yeah. 1100 00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:25.599 Let's just see how this goes. I think I've always 1101 00:49:25.699 --> 00:49:27.599 been like that. I've always been someone that wants to 1102 00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:30.039 take a risk. You know, the reason why I tell 1103 00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:34.550 you that story was because I had this belief that 1104 00:49:35.289 --> 00:49:36.969 growing up, like I said, right at the start of 1105 00:49:36.989 --> 00:49:39.920 this conversation, you get normal people. And I was one 1106 00:49:39.940 --> 00:49:43.539 of those normal people. I would never, ever have made 1107 00:49:43.579 --> 00:49:46.860 a decision like walking away from the BBC to join 1108 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.400 BT Sport at the start of my career. It was 1109 00:49:49.460 --> 00:49:52.059 only the time that I spent in Formula One and 1110 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:54.380 with all of these amazing elite people that I got 1111 00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.679 the chance to speak to them all. So I remember 1112 00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:57.039 the first time I was in the pit lane, I 1113 00:49:57.039 -->

00:50:00.019 was like, wow, that person's a billionaire team owner. That 1114 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.880 person's a Formula One driver. That person's a team principal. 1115 00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:06.420 That person's a globally famous actress. Like, I often used 1116 00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:09.030 to watch the races with Lewis Hamilton's girlfriend at the time, 1117 00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:11.699 Nicole Scherzinger. You know, so I was around. It was 1118 00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:13.510 just weird for me, this kid from Norfolk watching a 1119 00:50:13.530 --> 00:50:18.769 Grand Prix in Bahrain, sitting next to Nicole Scherzinger and 1120 00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:20.510 then Lewis Hamilton coming in and having a chat with you. 1121 00:50:20.530 --> 00:50:23.849 It was a strange time, kind of weird. But what 1122 00:50:23.869 --> 00:50:25.690 I did was I used it to say to all 1123 00:50:25.710 --> 00:50:28.150 these people, like, what's the secret? How did you get 1124 00:50:28.170 --> 00:50:30.090 to where you got to? Thinking that they would go, well, 1125 00:50:30.510 --> 00:50:33.429 I was born into wealth or my parents were billionaires. Oh, 1126 00:50:33.710 --> 00:50:37.460 this was always destined for me. They'd never said that. 1127 00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:42.380 They talked about consistency. They talked about taking a chance 1128 00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:44.519 and taking a risk and taking a leap of faith. 1129 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.300 And they talked about hard work. And I took all 1130 00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:49.570 of those things. And I always wanted to then have 1131 00:50:49.610 --> 00:50:51.809 the kinds of conversations that we're now having on high performance. 1132 00:50:52.690 --> 00:50:55.250 But it felt churlish to have these conversations without actually 1133 00:50:55.309 --> 00:50:58.800 living it myself. So the inspiration to walk away from 1134 00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:02.000 Formula One ironically came from Formula One, that those people 1135 00:51:02.179 --> 00:51:05.360 are inherent. risk takers they will take a chance they'll 1136 00:51:05.380 --> 00:51:08.139 do something that most people won't do and that's really 1137 00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:10.539 what led to us creating high performance I wanted to 1138 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.059 have these kinds of conversations and it felt like a 1139 00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:16.920 podcast was the right platform to do it. 1140 00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:19.429 On and so that started am I right in thinking 1141 00:51:19.489 --> 00:51:22.409 it mainly started with a lot of sports people it. 1142 00:51:22.389 --> 00:51:25.949 Did so I also had this fear like this imposter 1143 00:51:25.969 --> 00:51:27.929 syndrome thing where I was like no one's going to 1144 00:51:27.969 --> 00:51:30.090 care what a former kids tv presenter that's done a 1145 00:51:30.110 --> 00:51:32.150 bit of presenting on football and formula one thinks about 1146 00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:36.699 high performance Um,

so I'm, I was at a talk 1147 00:51:36.739 --> 00:51:38.920 at Norwich city football club and I met Damien Hughes, 1148 00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:41.159 who's my co-host as you know, you've met him. And 1149 00:51:41.179 --> 00:51:44.619 then I thought maybe this guy could be the guy 1150 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:47.820 that brings the credibility to the conversation. So I just 1151 00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:49.150 called him and I said, look, I really want to 1152 00:51:49.170 --> 00:51:52.949 have a conversation with people about high achievement and success 1153 00:51:53.010 --> 00:51:55.650 and failure and all these things. Would you be happy 1154 00:51:55.670 --> 00:51:59.860 to be part of that conversation? Again, imposter syndrome told 1155 00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:01.119 me that he would say no, but he didn't. He 1156 00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:05.949 said yes. And we started at the back end of 2019. 1157 00:52:05.949 --> 00:52:08.409 Where the whole thing that was taking a huge shift 1158 00:52:08.750 --> 00:52:10.869 is that in all honesty, like when we first started 1159 00:52:10.909 --> 00:52:13.340 High Performance, it was mainly sports people because those were 1160 00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:15.699 my contacts and they were his contacts. And you know 1161 00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:17.820 what it's like when you first start, you don't have 1162 00:52:17.900 --> 00:52:19.760 any evidence that this thing's gonna be successful. 1163 00:52:19.780 --> 00:52:21.340 You have to rely on your- Yeah, mine was founders really. 1164 00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:22.460 It was kind of, you know, it's natural. 1165 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:25.429 You rely on your black book, right? But I wanted 1166 00:52:25.449 --> 00:52:29.730 the conversation back then to be life's about failing, faltering, slipping, 1167 00:52:30.309 --> 00:52:34.250 getting punched in the guts, getting back up, taking a risk, 1168 00:52:34.369 --> 00:52:37.010 getting knocked down, going again. And the reason for that 1169 00:52:37.030 --> 00:52:38.840 is because that was my story. That's all the things 1170 00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:42.099 that I've spoken about. It's only now three years down 1171 00:52:42.139 --> 00:52:44.139 the line of having these conversations on high performance that 1172 00:52:44.179 --> 00:52:47.780 I realized that none of that is what success is. 1173 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:51.119 None of that creates more success. Getting punched in the 1174 00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:54.179 guts and talking badly to yourself and failing and faltering 1175 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.969 just creates more of the same. So the biggest revelation 1176 00:52:57.989 --> 00:52:59.610 for me is that my idea of what high performance 1177 00:52:59.670 --> 00:53:02.730 is has fundamentally changed from doing this podcast. You know, like, 1178 00:53:03.469 --> 00:53:06.849 is there a higher high performance than happiness? Probably not. 1179 00:53:07.010 --> 00:53:07.230 No. 1180 00:53:07.510 --> 00:53:09.469 When I first started, was it even in the top 1181 00:53:09.469 --> 00:53:11.309 50 things that I thought were going to be important? 1182 00:53:11.570 --> 00:53:13.730 Probably not. So it's been really good for me in 1183 00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:14.230 that respect. 1184 00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:17.030 Who would you say you've learned most from as a guest, 1185 00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:17.929 obviously other than me? 1186 00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:20.000 Obviously you were incredible. 1187 00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:20.260 Yes. 1188 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.159 But it wouldn't feel right to sit here and regale 1189 00:53:23.179 --> 00:53:26.619 you with tales of your own stories. I mean, Johnny Wilkinson, 1190 00:53:26.659 --> 00:53:28.380 if people have not heard of high performance and they 1191 00:53:28.420 --> 00:53:31.699 want to have their brains put through a washing machine. 1192 00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:37.219 Listen to our conversation with Johnny Wilkinson. It's the conversation 1193 00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:39.500 that changed the game for the High Performance Podcast. And 1194 00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:42.000 so Johnny Wilkinson kicked the drop goal that won the 1195 00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:45.119 Rugby World Cup for England in 2003. He told us 1196 00:53:45.139 --> 00:53:49.570 that doing the washing up is as important as winning 1197 00:53:49.610 --> 00:53:52.809 the Rugby World Cup. And so we're like, well, you 1198 00:53:52.849 --> 00:53:53.670 need to explain that. 1199 00:53:53.730 --> 00:53:55.369 Yes, I am lost. 1200 00:53:55.510 --> 00:53:56.969 And he said, well, let me just break it down 1201 00:53:57.010 --> 00:54:00.059 for you. What is... Playing rugby or winning the Rugby 1202 00:54:00.099 --> 00:54:03.039 World Cup, using your body to achieve a goal. What 1203 00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:05.519 is doing the washing up? Using your body to achieve 1204 00:54:05.539 --> 00:54:08.539 a goal. Why is winning the Rugby World Cup here 1205 00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:11.699 and washing up to a brilliant level here? It's because 1206 00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:13.880 society tells us that winning the Rugby World Cup is 1207 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:16.440 more important. We were joined by Hector Beyerin on the 1208 00:54:16.460 --> 00:54:18.500 podcast who told us you need to live like a candle, 1209 00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:20.909 which is exactly the same message. He said, you need 1210 00:54:20.929 --> 00:54:23.110 to be a candle. Your flame needs to burn the same. 1211 00:54:23.130 --> 00:54:26.530 So let's say you have some really bad results. with 1212 00:54:26.550 --> 00:54:28.800 your business, right? And financially you're struggling or the sales 1213 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:31.760 dip or something. And then equally the next month, you 1214 00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:33.820 have an amazing month and you break all your records. 1215 00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.820 You are no less of a person for your difficult month. 1216 00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:39.920 And you're

no more of a person for your brilliant month, 1217 00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:42.900 which was a great revelation for us. Susie Ma came 1218 00:54:42.940 --> 00:54:46.119 on the podcast and she spoke about making sure that 1219 00:54:46.340 --> 00:54:48.980 all of your plans are infinite. So she spoke about 1220 00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:52.340 infinite purpose. So purpose could be, I'm going to get 1221 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:54.400 a six pack. Well, the problem with that is you 1222 00:54:54.420 --> 00:54:56.710 either get a six pack And then you lose motivation 1223 00:54:56.730 --> 00:54:58.329 because you got it. Or you don't get it and 1224 00:54:58.349 --> 00:55:00.250 you lose motivation because you never got it. So she 1225 00:55:00.289 --> 00:55:04.309 came on and spoke about infinite purpose, finding your purpose 1226 00:55:04.329 --> 00:55:07.010 that never ends. So originally with High Performance, we were like, 1227 00:55:07.179 --> 00:55:10.460 let's reach 10 million people with the message of High Performance. 1228 00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:15.380 We've now had about 40 million downloads. So that's a 1229 00:55:15.460 --> 00:55:17.860 nonsense number to have picked out. So the purpose of 1230 00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:21.369 High Performance is reach more people every single day to 1231 00:55:21.389 --> 00:55:24.489 get them closer to their own version of High Performance. 1232 00:55:25.300 --> 00:55:29.039 We were joined by Rangan Chatterjee, who spoke about ikigai, 1233 00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:31.880 which is your reason for being. So what are you 1234 00:55:31.900 --> 00:55:35.559 good at? What do you love doing? What does the 1235 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:39.179 world need? And what can generate income? If you can 1236 00:55:39.260 --> 00:55:42.219 find something that you're good at and you love, and 1237 00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:44.360 that the world needs, and that you can use it 1238 00:55:44.389 --> 00:55:46.019 to pay your bills so you can actually do it, 1239 00:55:47.050 --> 00:55:50.489 that is the reason for being. That is your ikigai. 1240 00:55:51.289 --> 00:55:52.789 And the final one that I would call out is 1241 00:55:52.989 --> 00:55:56.530 this idea of fault versus responsibility. that's a big learning 1242 00:55:56.570 --> 00:55:59.019 for us on the podcast that we all walk around 1243 00:55:59.179 --> 00:56:01.760 with all kinds of things that are not our fault. 1244 00:56:02.739 --> 00:56:06.280 Trauma from childhood, an illness that you're not expecting, like 1245 00:56:06.420 --> 00:56:08.880 a global pandemic is probably the biggest, the most obvious 1246 00:56:09.699 --> 00:56:12.300 example of something that's none of our fault that's happened 1247 00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:15.130 in the last few years. You know, a breakdown in 1248 00:56:15.150 --> 00:56:17.309 a relationship with a partner, someone cheating on you or 1249 00:56:17.349 --> 00:56:20.809 walking out the door, whatever. Those things are not your fault. 1250 00:56:21.670 --> 00:56:23.699 The difficult conversation we need to have with people is, 1251 00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:29.179 They're still your responsibility. It's your responsibility. And that finding 1252 00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:34.460 that mindset of 100% responsibility is a really like fascinating 1253 00:56:34.659 --> 00:56:38.679 tenant of the high performance podcast. So my mind has 1254 00:56:38.699 --> 00:56:43.809 just been totally opened up, exploded, changed, altered, and it 1255 00:56:43.869 --> 00:56:47.030 is no longer. And I almost like regret the title 1256 00:56:47.090 --> 00:56:50.309 high performance. It makes it sound like high wealth, high earnings, 1257 00:56:50.349 --> 00:56:54.179 high status. it's none of those things it's high happiness 1258 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:58.960 it's high self-worth it's talking well to yourself because everyone 1259 00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:02.539 now is delaying their happiness mainly because of social media 1260 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:05.139 the pressures from society the kind of messaging that not 1261 00:57:05.179 --> 00:57:07.199 on this podcast but lots of podcasts put out there 1262 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:09.280 lots of social media channels put out there they're like 1263 00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:11.440 get this house and you'll be happy you know you 1264 00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:14.900 could chart life right do well at my GCSEs I'll 1265 00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:17.679 be happy to do well at my A-levels then I'd 1266 00:57:17.699 --> 00:57:19.380 definitely be happy well if I can get my place 1267 00:57:19.420 --> 00:57:20.780 at uni I'll really be happy but if I get 1268 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.619 a first I'll be delighted now I want my dream 1269 00:57:22.659 --> 00:57:25.079 job but I definitely want a promotion then I'll be 1270 00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:27.639 really happy and now I can buy my first house 1271 00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:29.460 well it's a two bed once I get a four 1272 00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:31.179 bed I'll be delighted then I'll try and meet my 1273 00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:33.199 life partner if we get married I'll be happy but 1274 00:57:33.219 --> 00:57:34.949 then I won't be really happy till we have kids 1275 00:57:35.030 --> 00:57:36.510 but that's kind of great but I won't be happy 1276 00:57:36.530 --> 00:57:38.969 till they're happy and then I'll finally retire then I'll 1277 00:57:38.989 --> 00:57:41.289 definitely really relax and be happy and then I'll go 1278 00:57:41.329 --> 00:57:43.489 abroad and we'll live abroad then I'll finally relax and 1279 00:57:43.510 --> 00:57:47.440 be really happy you're dead 1280 00:57:47.460 --> 00:57:49.530 1281 00:57:49.570 --> 00:57:51.769 1282 00:57:51.789 --> 00:57:53.909 1283 00:57:53.949 --> 00:57:55.909 1284 00:57:55.929 --> 00:57:58.090 1285 00:57:58.190 --> 00:58:00.329 1286 00:58:00.349 --> 00:58:02.159 1287 00:58:02.179 --> 00:58:04.440

1288 00:58:04.539 --> 00:58:07.079 1289 00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.760 1290 00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:12.719 condense all of those messages for people then I think 1291 00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:14.900 we've done a good job on high performance but it's 1292 00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:18.110 not about making money and being successful and building your. 1293 00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:21.349 Wealth yeah I think such important messages and I think 1294 00:58:22.050 --> 00:58:25.820 they're the types of things that we hear almost not 1295 00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:27.619 I don't say over and over in a way to 1296 00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:31.230 kind of do down how important they are but I 1297 00:58:31.269 --> 00:58:33.909 think they're the messages that we need to hear probably 1298 00:58:33.969 --> 00:58:36.269 like once or twice a week to actually even ever 1299 00:58:36.309 --> 00:58:39.659 start internalizing. Like we all know we're delaying happiness. We 1300 00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:42.329 all know we're, And then we always think that we're 1301 00:58:42.349 --> 00:58:45.030 the exception that needs to get success first because we're 1302 00:58:45.090 --> 00:58:47.320 harder than the others and therefore we're resilient enough to 1303 00:58:47.380 --> 00:58:51.000 delay happiness for now. But actually, you kind of need 1304 00:58:51.019 --> 00:58:53.679 to be constantly internalising those messages in order to be 1305 00:58:53.739 --> 00:58:57.639 able to actually get to a point where you're understanding 1306 00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:00.219 that you're enjoying the journey, not just the destination, and 1307 00:59:00.260 --> 00:59:02.590 understanding that the goalposts are always going to move. So 1308 00:59:02.610 --> 00:59:04.449 you've got to make the goalposts different. You've got to 1309 00:59:04.489 --> 00:59:07.030 make the thing about the actual, you know, even getting 1310 00:59:07.050 --> 00:59:07.949 there in the first place. 1311 00:59:07.969 --> 00:59:09.579 And by the way, like I still get a thrill 1312 00:59:09.659 --> 00:59:11.000 from things being successful. 1313 00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:11.639 Of course. 1314 00:59:11.820 --> 00:59:13.119 I still get a buzz from that. 1315 00:59:13.179 --> 00:59:13.420 Yeah. 1316 00:59:13.539 --> 00:59:16.199 I'm not saying don't be thrilled as you go along. 1317 00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:19.280 I'm just saying don't not be thrilled as you go along. 1318 00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:22.170 Like it's about those little wins, those little things every day. 1319 00:59:22.710 --> 00:59:24.449 Part of the issue, I think, is we can talk 1320 00:59:24.469 --> 00:59:27.289 like this for hours. The way the human brain obviously 1321 00:59:27.329 --> 00:59:30.730 works is it only takes one much more toxic negative 1322 00:59:30.789 --> 00:59:34.429 message to dominate people's thoughts so you know one of 1323 00:59:34.449 --> 00:59:35.909 the big things that we talk about when we go 1324 00:59:35.949 --> 00:59:37.730 and sort of meet groups of people and do workshops 1325 00:59:37.769 --> 00:59:40.269 and talk about high performance is they're like i know 1326 00:59:40.309 --> 00:59:43.010 all this but then i just see my neighbor with 1327 00:59:43.050 --> 00:59:45.639 a new car and i can't help but think ah 1328 00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:48.480 i wish that was me my answer to that always 1329 00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:51.340 is if you want what someone else has got right 1330 00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:55.389 whether it's their house their car their kids, their holiday, whatever. 1331 00:59:55.429 --> 00:59:57.289 Like my wife's currently got FOMO because all our friends 1332 00:59:57.309 --> 00:59:58.590 are going to go on a skiing holiday in a 1333 00:59:58.610 --> 01:00:01.389 few weeks and we're not, right? If you want the 1334 01:00:01.409 --> 01:00:03.489 things that they've got, you have to have everything they've got. 1335 01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:06.449 So that involves getting rid of your kids and having 1336 01:00:06.489 --> 01:00:09.820 their kids. That involves having the little traumas that they 1337 01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:12.420 have that you don't even see. It can often involve 1338 01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.719 having the big traumas that you even know about. You 1339 01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:16.840 can't cherry pick the best bits of everyone's lives and 1340 01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:19.199 want that for your life. If you want what they've got, 1341 01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:21.000 you need to be all in and have the lot. 1342 01:00:21.460 --> 01:00:23.480 And by the way, give up everything you've got. I 1343 01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:25.730 think once you say that to someone, you want to 1344 01:00:25.750 --> 01:00:27.750 give up your house, your kids, your job, your life, 1345 01:00:27.809 --> 01:00:30.289 your family, your parents for that. 1346 01:00:30.789 --> 01:00:31.190 Definitely. 1347 01:00:31.889 --> 01:00:35.449 Very few would say yes. So just stop that toxic 1348 01:00:35.849 --> 01:00:38.949 comparison of your life with other people's. Don't play the game. 1349 01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:42.280 Don't get sucked in. It's not real. You are enough. 1350 01:00:43.460 --> 01:00:45.639 What a good place to end. Thank you so much 1351 01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:48.119 for coming in. That's been a real, I mean, I 1352 01:00:48.139 --> 01:00:48.440 feel like. 1353 01:00:48.460 --> 01:00:50.059 Thanks for letting me talk to you. Yeah. 1354 01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.880 Which was really actually very helpful. You're incredible. Your career 1355 01:00:53.900 --> 01:00:57.440 has been incredible. And it's been, yeah, amazing to watch 1356 01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:00.099 for the amount of time I've kind of watched it. 1357 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:02.440 And yeah, thank you so much. 1358 01:01:02.659 --> 01:01:04.139 You're so kind. I bet you feel like me, though, 1359 01:01:04.179 --> 01:01:06.010 that you feel like you're actually 5% of the way there. 1360 01:01:06.429 --> 01:01:07.139 Yeah. Yeah. 1361 01:01:07.510 --> 01:01:09.960 That's exciting, though, right? Yeah, kind of. 1362 01:01:09.969 --> 01:01:11.349 I want some sleep. 1363 01:01:12.929 --> 01:01:13.730 We all want more sleep. 1364 01:01:25.929 --> 01:01:28.639 This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast 1365 01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:31.559 brought to you by Monzo, Ireland's newest bank. 1366 01:01:31.780 --> 01:01:34.300 Now we've mentioned more than once about the need for 1367 01:01:34.340 --> 01:01:37.019 more choice in Irish banking. 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