התמלול המלא של Coercive Control, Risk Factors, and Staying Safe – How to Protect Yourself from Abuse and Coercive Control with Lucy Bentley

who you see in the street, these are women who you Speaker: 00:04:12 would find inspirational, you know, and it's, it's not like Speaker: 00:04:15 a, you know, it's not like I see the underbelly unfortunately this is a, Speaker: 00:04:17 this is an issue that you know, affects a lot of us and so Speaker: 00:04:20 like for then people to be coming through that and then making Speaker: 00:04:23 projects, we're actually like, we're celebrating what it is to be Speaker: 00:04:26 women, you know and you know, Speaker: 00:04:29 sort of like to not, not kind of just be controlled like that Speaker: 00:04:32 anymore. I just like, you know, I think it's very cool and so I was very Speaker: 00:04:34 privileged to kind of take part in that really. So, so thank you, thank Speaker: 00:04:37 you for coming along. Speaker: 00:04:38 >> Wo0: So you came to the London studio shoot Speaker: 00:04:41 and just smashing Speaker: 00:04:44 you up. You're just great. And the outfit that Speaker: 00:04:47 you wore was one of my favourites, Speaker: 00:04:53 which was Great. Speaker: 00:04:54 >> Lucy: No comment. Speaker: 00:04:55 >> Wo0: So you wanted to come onto the podcast and talk Speaker: 00:04:58 to us about something specific, didn't you? Can you let us know what that Speaker: 00:05:01 is? Speaker: 00:05:02 >> Lucy: Yeah. So I think one of the things Speaker: 00:05:05 that I learned as a justice professional Speaker: 00:05:07 was about the kind of signs of abuse. Speaker: 00:05:10 I think sometimes when people are going through relationships that they might Speaker: 00:05:13 find difficult, I think they don't always necessarily understand Speaker: 00:05:16 the risk that they're at. One of the things that helped keep Speaker: 00:05:19 me safe when I left domestic and when I was experiencing Speaker: 00:05:22 domestic abuse was my knowledge Speaker: 00:05:25 of the risk factors involved in that. Because I Speaker: 00:05:28 think obviously the, the stats are quite high. Well, Speaker: 00:05:31 I mean, to be fair, like, any one dying from domestic abuse is Speaker: 00:05:34 too high. Let's just make that clear for a second. Speaker: 00:05:36 But, obviously the fact I think it was it like two Speaker: 00:05:39 women a week is just, you know, that to me Speaker: 00:05:42 is like. Well, yeah, and it's, it's, you know, Speaker: 00:05:45 it's a, it's a large scale problem. And Speaker: 00:05:48 so I think that like, we need more knowledge Speaker: 00:05:51 of like, people being able to say, okay, like I really am at risk here. Speaker: 00:05:54 Because I think sometimes, like, we don't even. Especially when you're with Speaker: 00:05:57 people who are quite psychologically abusive and they're, they're very good at like Speaker: 00:06:00 twisting their narrative may perhaps making you feel like you're in the Speaker: 00:06:02 wrong. You, you struggle to

really kind of understand the danger Speaker: 00:06:05 that you're in. And so, yeah, so I just wanted to kind of run for a few Speaker: 00:06:08 resources really, because, and I think especially like, Speaker: 00:06:11 unfortunately, I, mean I'm not going to speak too much on this because Speaker: 00:06:14 of litigation I'm going through, but Speaker: 00:06:16 justice professionals don't unfortunately take people seriously Speaker: 00:06:19 as well. So I think it's the knowledge that you need to kind of almost be able to Speaker: 00:06:22 advocate for yourself and say, you know, if help isn't Speaker: 00:06:25 forthcoming. Well, okay, well, like I need to make a safety plan Speaker: 00:06:28 for myself. Whether that involves help or whether that is, you Speaker: 00:06:30 know, on a personal basis, how can I keep myself Speaker: 00:06:33 safe? Speaker: 00:06:37 >> Wo0: Amazing. So what are these resources? Speaker: 00:06:40 >> Lucy: So, yeah, I think the first one I'd like Speaker: 00:06:43 to briefly, speak about Speaker: 00:06:46 is something that we would use as justice Speaker: 00:06:48 professionals called a dash checklist. so it's Speaker: 00:06:51 not like, you know, it's not. These aren't kind Speaker: 00:06:54 of like massive secrets. These are just kind of like Speaker: 00:06:57 tools that anyone can go and look at. Speaker: 00:07:00 so basically it's just a, it's a multiple choice Speaker: 00:07:03 questionnaire. So when I say it's called a dash Speaker: 00:07:05 checklist, this Is spelled dash as in D A, S, Speaker: 00:07:08 H, like, dashing through the snow. I don't know what you want Speaker: 00:07:11 to call that. But so you. But Speaker: 00:07:14 yeah. so it's a multiple choice questionnaire. Speaker: 00:07:17 And basically, Speaker: 00:07:20 we would use this as justice professionals. If someone disclosed Speaker: 00:07:23 that they were going through abuse and then, whether or Speaker: 00:07:26 they got a certain amount of ticks would be whether or not they were Speaker: 00:07:29 referred to sort of like higher levels of support. Speaker: 00:07:33 So essentially like, there are meetings and things where we say, Speaker: 00:07:35 okay, so this woman is at a risk of domestic Speaker: 00:07:38 homicide. And so you can refer them to Speaker: 00:07:41 that. so generally speaking this will be done with Speaker: 00:07:44 someone because of a specific incident, if you know what Speaker: 00:07:47 I mean. So, it will say like, has the current Speaker: 00:07:49 incident resulted in injury? and Speaker: 00:07:52 so I'd like to kind of say, like, obviously domestic abuse Speaker: 00:07:55 does not necessarily mean physical abuse. but this is Speaker: 00:07:58 obviously, this is assessing the risk of domestic Speaker: 00:08:00 homicide. are you very frightened Speaker: 00:08:03 is one of them. I think essentially Speaker: 00:08:06 sometimes we call it like the victim's intuitive sense of Speaker: 00:08:09 fear. And so like, I think anyone who's Speaker: 00:08:12 kind of been in an abusive relationship can kind of Speaker: 00:08:15 understand where this is coming from is sometimes you almost Speaker: 00:08:17 like you pick up on like signs from that person Speaker: 00:08:21 and do you. Do you know where I'm coming from? And so it's like Speaker: 00:08:23 you kind of know. Speaker: 00:08:25 >> Wo0: Yeah, I know exactly where you're coming from. Yeah. There Speaker: 00:08:27 was like a look in the eyes or there was like, Speaker: 00:08:30 you just know what, you just know when shit's gonna go Speaker: 00:08:33 down. Speaker: 00:08:34 >> Lucy: Certain body language. Speaker: 00:08:35 >> Wo0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker: 00:08:36 >> Lucy: No, you do, you do, you really do. And m. And Speaker: 00:08:38 then it's kind of almost like the roulette wheel of what's going to be the thing Speaker: 00:08:42 that actually, you know, precipitates the, the Speaker: 00:08:44 incident. so it says, what are you afraid of as well? Speaker: 00:08:47 So, is it further injury or violence? and so sometimes Speaker: 00:08:50 like people, perpetrators can make threats, in Speaker: 00:08:53 terms of like trying to control that woman's behaviour. So they Speaker: 00:08:56 may or not may not be real, but I think like, they need to be taken Speaker: 00:08:59 seriously because even if it's not indicative of actual harm, Speaker: 00:09:02 it's indicative of the level of fear that this perpetrator has Speaker: 00:09:05 created for that victim to be living. Speaker: 00:09:06 >> Wo0: Yeah, so, so I had. If you like, Speaker: 00:09:09 I'm gonna burn, your house down if you don't Speaker: 00:09:12 leave, like, if you don't Speaker: 00:09:15 sneak out and go from my friend's Speaker: 00:09:17 house, I will go and burn your house down. That kind of Speaker: 00:09:20 thing. Speaker: 00:09:21 >> Lucy: Well, one of the Things that was said to me a lot was that, you Speaker: 00:09:24 know, it was threats to harm my dog. So I'm going to throw your dog in the Speaker: 00:09:27 street. Or I've, you know, when, or, was it, Speaker: 00:09:30 oh, I've called the rspca, they're coming to get your dog Speaker: 00:09:33 now. You better come back to the house. you know, just, just empty, you Speaker: 00:09:36 know, but then, you know, and you hear other things as well, like, you know, if Speaker: 00:09:39 I'm gonna harm, I'll go and harm your Speaker: 00:09:42 parent or something. Like, you know, so it could be anything, really. It's Speaker: 00:09:45 like the. It's very broad. and then are you depressed or having Speaker: 00:09:48 suicidal thoughts? So again, it's just kind of like indicative of Speaker: 00:09:51 what is the emotional harm that's been caused to this Speaker: 00:09:54

person. have you separated or Speaker: 00:09:57 tried to separate from your abuser within the past Speaker: 00:09:59 year? So I think one. Well, it's Speaker: 00:10:02 not. I think that the high risk, highest risk time Speaker: 00:10:05 for a victim of domestic abuse is when they leave that Speaker: 00:10:08 perpetrator. essentially that is Speaker: 00:10:10 when the control has been, Speaker: 00:10:13 threatened. And often, often, like, you know, Speaker: 00:10:16 perpetrators are dependent on their victims Speaker: 00:10:19 for various things, in terms of like, you know, I Speaker: 00:10:22 don't know, housework, money. However, they've kind of like Speaker: 00:10:25 arranged that relationship to be. And so they, you know, because Speaker: 00:10:28 the control has been threatened, they Speaker: 00:10:30 then, you know, obviously don't like that. Speaker: 00:10:33 so is there conflict over child contact? I think. I mean, Speaker: 00:10:36 I've got no experience of this myself, but I can't even imagine Speaker: 00:10:39 what that's like for, people who have to go through that. I mean, I was Speaker: 00:10:42 really lucky, the. Speaker: 00:10:43 >> Wo0: Fact that he just didn't bother. So. Thank Speaker: 00:10:46 you. Speaker: 00:10:50 >> Lucy: I think, I think children can often be Speaker: 00:10:53 weaponized. Yeah. Speaker: 00:10:54 >> Wo0: 100. Speaker: 00:10:55 >> Lucy: I think, as well, we need. It's important to recognise that, Speaker: 00:10:58 like, emotion, like, children suffer emotional harm just from being Speaker: 00:11:01 in homes where there is domestic abuse. They don't have to be there, you Speaker: 00:11:04 know, and kids pick up on things as well. So I'm not trying to Speaker: 00:11:06 make victims feel guilty in any way, because victims are not, but Speaker: 00:11:09 it's just something to bear in mind. You know, your kids might, you Speaker: 00:11:12 know, lie away, you know, be in bed, but they can still hear Speaker: 00:11:15 things. Speaker: 00:11:16 >> Wo0: And they pick up on your. Like, they pick up on your stress Speaker: 00:11:19 and everything, don't they? Speaker: 00:11:20 >> Lucy: They do, yeah, they do. so it Speaker: 00:11:23 does, Is. Speaker: 00:11:24 Does the abuser constantly text, call, Speaker: 00:11:26 contact, follow, stalk or harass you? Speaker: 00:11:29 so I suppose it's, you know, like, if you go to, Speaker: 00:11:32 you you know, you've gone out with a friend or something, and you're getting Speaker: 00:11:34 constant text messages or that phone ringing over and over and over Speaker: 00:11:38 and over and over until you. You pick it up. After I've experienced that, it's actually Speaker: 00:11:41 quite horrible, to be honest. is the abuse happening more often? So Speaker: 00:11:44 this is, one of the signs as well. So I think abuse is often Speaker: 00:11:47 quite cyclical. So it's not, you know, Speaker: 00:11:49 because things at the end of day, if abusive people were always Speaker: 00:11:52 abusive, they wouldn't be in a relationship to the Speaker: 00:11:54 first at all. So it generally is Speaker: 00:11:57 a cycle. And you'll see those steps of. After Speaker: 00:12:00 a huge incident, you'll then have a honeymoon period, and then Speaker: 00:12:03 things will start to go downhill again. So I think one Speaker: 00:12:06 of the big warning signs is when that circle almost Speaker: 00:12:09 gets smaller, so there's more incidents Speaker: 00:12:12 occurring. so I think as well that can quite often Speaker: 00:12:14 coincide with perhaps, maybe things Speaker: 00:12:17 happening externally outside the relationship. So Speaker: 00:12:20 perhaps the perpetrator is having a deterioration in his Speaker: 00:12:23 mental health. Perhaps there' more pressures. so, like, financial Speaker: 00:12:26 pressures, for example. And so obviously that Speaker: 00:12:29 then sort of like, you know, puts more pressure on Speaker: 00:12:32 the relationship. so Speaker: 00:12:34 do they try to control everything you Speaker: 00:12:37 do? So again, again, like, don't try not to take this too literally Speaker: 00:12:40 because, like, everything you do obviously don't control everything you do. But I Speaker: 00:12:43 think sometimes when you've left a controlling relationship, you Speaker: 00:12:46 actually, you kind of like, almost, bit by bit, become Speaker: 00:12:48 adjusted to almost like a series of rules. Speaker: 00:12:51 And once you've, like, learned the series of rules and the, like, the Speaker: 00:12:54 goalposts change, then it's like, so, like, so folks, Speaker: 00:12:57 like, for example, I don't talk too much about my experiences Speaker: 00:13:00 because I don't really want to upset the apple cart. Speaker: 00:13:02 But, in terms of. So first of all, it Speaker: 00:13:05 was like, I wasn't allowed to use the dishwasher. Speaker: 00:13:09 And then it was, the plates have to be Speaker: 00:13:11 stacked in a certain way. And then, you know, and then. And then you Speaker: 00:13:14 go, someone's screaming in your face. Because you've got. The Speaker: 00:13:17 entire kitchen is clean, but there's one plate which is on the side next to the Speaker: 00:13:20 sink. And you kind of think, hold on a minute. Like, you know, I Speaker: 00:13:23 could have used a dishwasher. Yeah, like, like why we. You know. Speaker: 00:13:26 But, yeah, and so it's like. It was almost like the rules Speaker: 00:13:29 kind of stack up a lot. And. Because it's not about. It's Speaker: 00:13:32 not about the dishwasher, is it? It's just. It's about, Speaker: 00:13:35 like, control and Speaker: 00:13:38 then obviously there are other things in relationships that we can Speaker: 00:13:41 see. So like honour based

Speaker: 00:13:43 violence is something that it flags up here. So it could be to Speaker: 00:13:46 do with you know, people's religious beliefs or you know, Speaker: 00:13:49 views. perhaps some more extreme patriarchal Speaker: 00:13:52 societies, perhaps like Middle Eastern countries for Speaker: 00:13:55 example where they have kind of higher Speaker: 00:13:58 expectations of how women should Speaker: 00:14:01 behave. Speaker: 00:14:03 so yeah, and then so some other ones. Speaker: 00:14:06 Has the abuser ever attempted to strangle, Speaker: 00:14:08 choke, suffocate or drown you? I think the number Speaker: 00:14:11 one sign, the abuser will go on to kill Speaker: 00:14:14 a woman. Perhaps not the number one sign. That's a bit of a bold claim. I'm not sure I Speaker: 00:14:17 can back that up, but is one of the biggest signs Speaker: 00:14:20 is someone who, who strangles their Speaker: 00:14:23 partner. so that is a, especially Speaker: 00:14:26 obviously in a non consensual situation. so that Speaker: 00:14:29 is absolutely, you know, if that has happened to you, you Speaker: 00:14:32 need to be concerned about your safety. yeah. So Speaker: 00:14:34 saying things of a sexual nature that make you feel bad or that Speaker: 00:14:37 physically hurts you or someone else. Speaker: 00:14:40 So I think, you know, I think in this day and age we've all kind of come to Speaker: 00:14:43 the conclusion that rape can occur Speaker: 00:14:46 within relationships. You know, it's not. It's Speaker: 00:14:48 not. And you know, statistically it's most likely to occur Speaker: 00:14:51 within relationships just because, you know, you need to always ensure that you have Speaker: 00:14:54 consent. It doesn't matter whether this is your girlfriend, wife, partner, Speaker: 00:14:57 you know, boyfriend, you, you need Speaker: 00:15:00 to consent. So mistreating animals, Speaker: 00:15:03 again is a, is a big one. Speaker: 00:15:06 it says are there any financial issues? Speaker: 00:15:09 number 21. So this is this is a really interesting one because it's Speaker: 00:15:12 also one of the leading signs that we find in Speaker: 00:15:15 baby deaths as well. Without being too morbid. Sorry. Speaker: 00:15:18 But so it's. Has the abuser Speaker: 00:15:21 had any problems in the past year with drugs, alcohol or Speaker: 00:15:24 mental health leading to problems, in leading a normal Speaker: 00:15:26 life? So we've got drugs, alcohol and Speaker: 00:15:29 mental health. And so that's actually called within social Speaker: 00:15:32 work that's called the toxic trio. So you have Speaker: 00:15:35 mental health problems plus drug and alcohol problems plus Speaker: 00:15:38 domestic abuse. Within the home. They are the Speaker: 00:15:41 highest risk factors for a child to to be Speaker: 00:15:44 killed. and again like I don't want anyone listening

to Speaker: 00:15:47 this to think I'm m judgmental about people with mental health problems or even Speaker: 00:15:50 you know, with drug and alcohol problems because it doesn't mean, Speaker: 00:15:52 because you suffer from these that you are an Abusive person. Speaker: 00:15:56 It just means these are features within Speaker: 00:15:58 cases or studies we've looked into where these Speaker: 00:16:01 offences have occurred. So it doesn't necessarily mean because you have, that Speaker: 00:16:04 you are an abuser, if you see what I mean. and then. Speaker: 00:16:07 Yeah, so the final two are ah, Speaker: 00:16:09 breaking bail, or non Speaker: 00:16:12 molestation orders. I think that is kind of key Speaker: 00:16:15 feature in this kind of personality type. So it's almost like if you Speaker: 00:16:18 kind of set a boundary so you try to block that person or you Speaker: 00:16:20 know, you take out a protective order and they're like Speaker: 00:16:23 no. And they push against that. Speaker: 00:16:26 And finally, have they ever been in trouble with the police Speaker: 00:16:29 or have a criminal history? So again, Speaker: 00:16:32 that one, it doesn't always mean Speaker: 00:16:35 that a lot of the time, you know, abuse occurs and Speaker: 00:16:38 people don't call the police. So they may well have a history of abusing other Speaker: 00:16:41 women and they've never come to the detention of the police at all. Speaker: 00:16:43 >> Wo0: Yeah. Speaker: 00:16:44 >> Lucy: You know, and, but again these are all Speaker: 00:16:47 just sort of like things you can kind of like reflect on within your own Speaker: 00:16:50 relationship. So just kind of say if you're already kind of feeling a bit unsafe Speaker: 00:16:53 but you're, you're kind of like, well, am I, you know, because Speaker: 00:16:56 I don't know if you've ever thought this, but sometimes I think, oh, am I being a bit Speaker: 00:16:58 oversensitive? Like I'm, I just. Am I to Speaker: 00:17:01 blame or like, you know, or anything? Like, you know, am I, am I Speaker: 00:17:04 crazy? yeah. Speaker: 00:17:05 >> Wo0: So I, I never Speaker: 00:17:08 thought that I was hit enough or Speaker: 00:17:11 abused enough or Speaker: 00:17:14 raped enough for it to matter. Speaker: 00:17:18 Just like the people would believe me. Like there's like. Speaker: 00:17:21 Because it was within the, Speaker: 00:17:24 the our bed at home, like Speaker: 00:17:26 not come lock look trigger warning you're not kicking and Speaker: 00:17:29 screaming like in a park or something like Speaker: 00:17:32 that, that it, that it didn't matter. Speaker: 00:17:35 >> Lucy: So. Speaker: 00:17:39 >> Wo0: It, this is really good for people to realise Speaker: 00:17:42 that, that any, any abuse is not Speaker: 00:17:44 okay and, and that you can get help and Speaker: 00:17:47 it all does matter and

you matter. And. Speaker: 00:17:51 >> Lucy: Yeah, no, definitely. And I think I would encourage people Speaker: 00:17:54 to go, anyone who is concerned about, I Speaker: 00:17:57 mean obviously like that, you know, there is the tagline like love should Speaker: 00:18:00 hurt. And that is just a fundament, you know, for anyone. Speaker: 00:18:03 But I would encourage people to go and Google something called the Speaker: 00:18:06 power and control wheel because domestic abuse is such Speaker: 00:18:09 a spectrum of behaviours and a lot of Speaker: 00:18:11 these behaviours, aren't physical abuse. So there isn't. Speaker: 00:18:14 So. But there are also things that we would consider Speaker: 00:18:17 under a risk assessment. We would consider Physical abuse, it doesn't necessarily Speaker: 00:18:20 mean that they have made contact with you as an Speaker: 00:18:22 individual. So, for example, if someone is Speaker: 00:18:25 ranting and raving at you for hours on end while you sit Speaker: 00:18:28 there like, you know, like spewing like bile Speaker: 00:18:31 at you, and you just kind of like, you know, you feel like you're covered in oil Speaker: 00:18:34 afterwards with just, just their hatred. Like, Speaker: 00:18:37 say, say you spoke up and then that person then picks Speaker: 00:18:40 something up and then throw something at the wall because you've tried to talk Speaker: 00:18:43 back, that is considered physical abuse. If someone Speaker: 00:18:46 punches a wall next to your head, that is considered physical Speaker: 00:18:48 abuse because it's a physical act that's intended to maintain Speaker: 00:18:51 control of that situation or to elicit Speaker: 00:18:54 fear within a victim. So, you know, and these Speaker: 00:18:57 things you kind of like, and especially like abusers will say things like, oh, Speaker: 00:19:00 I've never hit. I've never hit anyone. It's like, well, that's irrelev. It's Speaker: 00:19:03 irrelevant. As criminal justice professionals, that would be Speaker: 00:19:06 irrelevant to their risk. You know, we would look at the entire Speaker: 00:19:09 situation and, you know, a lot of the time Speaker: 00:19:12 there are without, you know, wanting to be fear mongering. This isn't Speaker: 00:19:15 about fear mongering. This is just about people being equipped with the Speaker: 00:19:18 information they need to keep themselves safe. There are abusers Speaker: 00:19:20 where, you know, they don't nest. You know, they act Speaker: 00:19:23 aggressively, but it isn't, Speaker: 00:19:26 it isn't like a red mist, kind of reactive. You know, someone's Speaker: 00:19:29 lost control and they're punching bottles. It is a very Speaker: 00:19:31 calculated use of physical abuse, such as throwing something at Speaker: 00:19:34 a wal. in order to mains, as I say, Speaker: 00:19:37 to maintain a, control over that situation. They haven't, they haven't lost Speaker: 00:19:40 control, you know, so. Speaker: 00:19:43 Yeah. Speaker: 00:19:44 but no. Was it. Was there any questions about that at all? Speaker: 00:19:47 >> Wo0: I haven't got any questions because I can see it Speaker: 00:19:50 all. Do you know what I mean? Because I, because I've been there, Speaker: 00:19:53 so I can see it. Speaker: 00:19:55 >> Lucy: If someone isn't sure you can reach out Speaker: 00:19:58 to. I would, I would encourage people to reach out to. If you don't want to Speaker: 00:20:01 speak to the police, perhaps. so there are IDVA Speaker: 00:20:04 services, so it's independent domestic violence advocates. Speaker: 00:20:07 there were. They will have them in every area of the Speaker: 00:20:10 uk. And I mean, there was one who spoke to me, who she Speaker: 00:20:12 called. She called me randomly. so I must have left a voicemail Speaker: 00:20:15 without knowing it. And she spoke to me. This was on a Sunday afternoon for about Speaker: 00:20:18 an hour. And like, she was like an angel, honestly, like, Speaker: 00:20:21 I'VE never just, you know, it just came at exactly the right Speaker: 00:20:24 time. And you don't have to Speaker: 00:20:27 pursue a prosecution in order to get support. Speaker: 00:20:31 Okay. If you are seeing these signs within relationships. So the Speaker: 00:20:34 police can do things, you know, they can give you a panic alarm, they can do, Speaker: 00:20:37 they can give you lots of support without you necessarily having to Speaker: 00:20:39 pursue a conviction in court. So please, like, please just bear that in Speaker: 00:20:42 mind. You know, your, your safety is paramount. And I think I would always say to Speaker: 00:20:45 people, trust your gut because you are the person who has lived this, you have Speaker: 00:20:48 lived this pattern, you've lived this cycle. So if you, if you feel that you're not Speaker: 00:20:51 safe, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Speaker: 00:20:53 >> Wo0: You know, I think with neurodivergent people Speaker: 00:20:56 as well, it's like another Speaker: 00:20:59 layer, isn't it? Because there's the people pleasing Speaker: 00:21:02 that goes on top of that. so Speaker: 00:21:05 I thought that I had to be something that I Speaker: 00:21:08 thought that they wanted. Speaker: 00:21:11 Don't ask me how I knew that. And then it Speaker: 00:21:14 wasn't. So I didn't ever call the police, I Speaker: 00:21:17 didn't ever tell anybody. I, there were some friends Speaker: 00:21:19 that knew, but they knew both of us. and Speaker: 00:21:22 I'm m talking about both relationships now because there was like a, Speaker: 00:21:25 a ten year Speaker: 00:21:28 narcissistic relationship with like Speaker: 00:21:32 financial, abuse, like all of it. And that was worse than the Speaker: 00:21:35 physical. So I completely get that it's

domestic Speaker: 00:21:37 abuse, it's not all violent. and I Speaker: 00:21:40 didn't tell anybody, I didn't get any support. Speaker: 00:21:43 So the best places to go would be the ID for Speaker: 00:21:46 service. Yeah. Speaker: 00:21:47 >> Lucy: And then there'll be, there'll be charities as well, you know, like, Speaker: 00:21:50 and these will differ area to area. But I think Speaker: 00:21:53 what we're starting to realise more and more in the justice system Speaker: 00:21:56 is I think it's, it's trying to give control back Speaker: 00:21:59 to victims because that's, that kind of. The Speaker: 00:22:02 point is when you've been in a relationship like this, you don't want to feel that Speaker: 00:22:05 choices are being taken out of your hands. Speaker: 00:22:08 So. And I think, I think kind of what you're describing is almost like the fawn Speaker: 00:22:11 response, which is very, very common in victims of Speaker: 00:22:14 domestic abuse. So it's as you say, it's that people pleasing. So Speaker: 00:22:17 it's like, okay, well you almost like create that set of rules. So it Speaker: 00:22:20 might, you know, when you say controlling behaviour, I think Speaker: 00:22:22 perpetrators have not necessarily said like, Speaker: 00:22:25 you must do this. You know, there's no Ten Commandments written on A Speaker: 00:22:28 whiteboard in your house saying, you must live by this. But actually what it Speaker: 00:22:31 is, is it's almost like a Pavlov dog of Speaker: 00:22:33 conditioning, where you realise that when you do this thing, that man Speaker: 00:22:36 becomes angry, so. Or woman or Speaker: 00:22:39 person becomes angry, and so Speaker: 00:22:42 you make a mental note of it in your head and Speaker: 00:22:45 you, you know, just don't do that thing. Speaker: 00:22:47 And then, as I say, but then it, you know, the. The Speaker: 00:22:50 goalpost move. So I think it's actually, and especially when it's. When Speaker: 00:22:53 we look at it in that cycle, because there are always, like, highs. Speaker: 00:22:56 And so you kind of think, like, you know, this person on a good Speaker: 00:22:59 day, you know, they're so, like, Speaker: 00:23:01 wonderful. You know, within that trauma bond, the highs are Speaker: 00:23:04 so high within these relationships that you think, if only I just do Speaker: 00:23:07 X, Y, Z. And, you know, that's how you start to blame yourself. Speaker: 00:23:10 So, No, yeah, I completely understand. With people, I Speaker: 00:23:13 think neurodivergent people are at higher risk of Speaker: 00:23:17 being in an abusive relationship. I think Speaker: 00:23:20 quite often I've seen a statistic that Speaker: 00:23:23 especially autistic women are quite often Speaker: 00:23:25 subject to abuse. I don't Speaker: 00:23:28 know why that is. I don't know if it's to do with, dynamics of Speaker: 00:23:31

grooming or, you know, perhaps, you know, isolation, not Speaker: 00:23:34 having that support in their younger years, finding it harder to make friendships. So Speaker: 00:23:37 you're more easily sucked in by a lot. But no, definitely, it Speaker: 00:23:40 does. It does, as you say, add that, aspect. Speaker: 00:23:42 >> Wo0: It's. It's mad, right, that Speaker: 00:23:46 you can't sometimes specifically Speaker: 00:23:48 pinpoint that someone has been abusive Speaker: 00:23:51 or. But you know, you know that you just feel crap. They're Speaker: 00:23:54 doing this stuff to you, but you can't say to Speaker: 00:23:57 somebody, this is going on Speaker: 00:23:59 because there's like. Like you say, there's no tank. Like, there's Speaker: 00:24:02 no. It's not written down anywhere. Speaker: 00:24:06 How can people, like. I Speaker: 00:24:09 don't know, how can people understand that they're Speaker: 00:24:11 not just going mad like that. That Speaker: 00:24:14 is a part of the whole abuse thing as well. Speaker: 00:24:18 >> Lucy: Well, I think. I think, to be honest, it is Speaker: 00:24:21 difficult when you're in that relationship. So I think a lot of Speaker: 00:24:24 the time, Because the thing is, I. I was a domestic abuse lead, so I feel Speaker: 00:24:27 like I don't. I don't want to sound stupid, but, you know, I had full. All Speaker: 00:24:30 of this knowledge of abusive relationships, you know, and these dynamics, Speaker: 00:24:33 and I still live that for years. Yeah. So, you Speaker: 00:24:35 know, I've always. I wouldn't want people to sit there Speaker: 00:24:38 feeling guilty or that they're not safeguarding themselves properly Speaker: 00:24:41 because denial is strong, like, you know, and then, you know, Speaker: 00:24:44 and also, you know, psychological manipulation can happen to Speaker: 00:24:47 absolutely anyone, you know, so it Speaker: 00:24:49 is tough. But I think ultimately, like, if you. I Speaker: 00:24:52 think the great thing about these tools like. Speaker: 00:24:55 Like this dash checklist is it gives something Speaker: 00:24:58 tangible, so. Because it is precisely that a lot of the time, Speaker: 00:25:01 the controlling dynamics are so hard for you to kind of vocalise. Speaker: 00:25:04 >> Wo0: Yeah. Speaker: 00:25:04 >> Lucy: It then gives an assessment for professionals to be Speaker: 00:25:07 able to say, okay, well, these are the things that we. We need Speaker: 00:25:10 to actually really see what danger in here. And so Speaker: 00:25:13 they can elicit that from you rather than you kind of having to explain Speaker: 00:25:16 it. Does that make sense? Speaker: 00:25:17 >> Wo0: Yeah. Speaker: 00:25:18 >> Lucy: So it gives them the framework. Speaker: 00:25:19 >> Wo0: Yeah. But there's got to be like an incident before that happens, Speaker: 00:25:22 right? Speaker: 00:25:23 >> Lucy:

I mean. I mean, generally speaking, that is Speaker: 00:25:26 when there will be an incident Speaker: 00:25:28 in order to make. And when I say incident, it doesn't Speaker: 00:25:31 necessarily have to be like a physical abuse incident. It might just be, you know, a Speaker: 00:25:34 frightening evening where you kind of. It, you know, put Speaker: 00:25:37 something in your head that actually, you know, this, this. Something's not right here, so it doesn't Speaker: 00:25:40 have to be, but it just. Generally speaking, that is, you know, there's Speaker: 00:25:43 usually something that makes someone come forward. So, yeah, it doesn't, it Speaker: 00:25:46 doesn't have to be. No, it could just be, you know, like, you know, it could just be Speaker: 00:25:49 it's gone away for a week and you've kind of had time and to kind Speaker: 00:25:52 of let the dust settle and go. Actually, you know, I don't, you know, Speaker: 00:25:55 I don't feel like this is right and I want to leave this Speaker: 00:25:57 relationship. Speaker: 00:25:59 >> Wo0: Yeah. Oh, bless you. Thanks, Lucy. Speaker: 00:26:06 >> Lucy: Could I speak a bit about this. This Speaker: 00:26:09 model? Speaker: 00:26:10 >> Wo0: Absolutely. Yes, you can speak about this model. Speaker: 00:26:13 >> Lucy: Very keen. Speaker: 00:26:14 >> Wo0: Please do. Speaker: 00:26:15 >> Lucy: Thank you. So, when Speaker: 00:26:18 a person, is. Speaker: 00:26:21 Their life is taken by a domestic abuse perpetrator, generally Speaker: 00:26:24 speaking, what happens is we would have, within justice systems, so Speaker: 00:26:27 they would go through, any Speaker: 00:26:29 agency, any agency Speaker: 00:26:32 contact that this person has had, whether that's. And Speaker: 00:26:35 I think that's both with the perpetrator and the victim. Speaker: 00:26:38 So quite often they may be known to social services, the perpetrator may Speaker: 00:26:41 have been known to probation services and so forth. So the Speaker: 00:26:43 idea is that, like justice Speaker: 00:26:46 agencies can have almost like lessons learned from Speaker: 00:26:49 where we've gone wrong and where we could have. And to be honest, you Speaker: 00:26:51 know, it's difficult because ultimately that Speaker: 00:26:54 person has committed that crime, not the justice agency. So it is difficult. Speaker: 00:26:57 But Ultimately, sometimes there are lessons learned where we could say, well actually if this Speaker: 00:27:00 were to happen again, we can do this. And this is a procedure Speaker: 00:27:03 we can change to safeguard that person or people in the future. Speaker: 00:27:06 So it is a good thing that Speaker: 00:27:09 we do. But from these, Speaker: 00:27:12 they've brought out a eight step Speaker: 00:27:14 timeline within domestic homicides. and Speaker: 00:27:17 so this is kind of like almost like a Speaker: 00:27:20

framework. so again, if you notice any of these signs, Speaker: 00:27:23 it's probably something where you should probably go. Even if there isn't an Speaker: 00:27:26 immediate incident, this should be kind of raising things in Speaker: 00:27:29 your mind that you're like, okay, well you know, I need to kind of like Speaker: 00:27:32 seek support here, whether or not that means you go to the police for a Speaker: 00:27:35 conviction. But I, I need help here. Speaker: 00:27:38 So. Yeah, so the first stage is a Speaker: 00:27:40 pre relationship history of stalking or abuse Speaker: 00:27:43 by the perpetrator. is it's very, very Speaker: 00:27:46 common for abusive partners to have had Speaker: 00:27:49 a previous abusive relationships. You know, is, it doesn't Speaker: 00:27:52 come out of nowhere. I think, you know, there may be Speaker: 00:27:54 a very odd case where perhaps someone has a mental Speaker: 00:27:57 breakdown out of nowhere. But I think generally speaking, Speaker: 00:28:00 this kind of domestic abuse, it is, there will be a history of Speaker: 00:28:03 it. women can apply to Speaker: 00:28:05 your police station under Claire's Law, for Speaker: 00:28:08 any information on that perpetrator. You can do that, you can do that Speaker: 00:28:11 without them knowing. So it just, basically it's Speaker: 00:28:14 just almost like a background check. Does this, does this person Speaker: 00:28:17 have any history of domestic abuse? They may not, they may Speaker: 00:28:20 not known to agencies. But, so that's just something you Speaker: 00:28:23 could do to safeguard yourself if you were concerned. Speaker: 00:28:26 so yeah, step two, which is something unfortunately I've had to kind of Speaker: 00:28:29 like reflect on myself. So it's the, the romance Speaker: 00:28:32 develops quickly into a serious relationship, I Speaker: 00:28:35 think especially with neurodivergent people. Like, Speaker: 00:28:38 I don't know about you, but I definitely have like, I'll be Speaker: 00:28:41 like, oh, instant best friends. Or like, you know, even, even you said about Speaker: 00:28:44 the podcast kind of went from 0 to 100. We kind of met. We're like, come Speaker: 00:28:46 on. And so I know, is Speaker: 00:28:49 something that we can all kind of relate to. but it is, it is Speaker: 00:28:52 quite a red flag, unfortunately. you know, it's a sign of, Speaker: 00:28:55 the relationship, is moving too Speaker: 00:28:57 quickly. so that would be stage two. Speaker: 00:29:01 stage three is the relationship becomes dominated. Speaker: 00:29:03 >> Wo0: It's just my life. Speaker: 00:29:05 >> Lucy: I know, I know. Speaker: 00:29:08 Yeah. And yeah, so step three, the relationship Speaker: 00:29:11 becomes dominated by coercive control. Speaker: 00:29:14 So as we said it's almost like, heard a good Speaker: 00:29:16 description. So it was like the frog in the hot. In the Speaker: 00:29:19 boiling pan or whatever it is. So, you know, like, Speaker: 00:29:22 the water gets hotter and hotter and hotter, but the frog doesn't necessarily Speaker: 00:29:25 acknowledge it until like the water's boiling. And I think that's a Speaker: 00:29:28 really good metaphor for coercive control. So it's Speaker: 00:29:30 like it becomes more, escalated over Speaker: 00:29:33 time. So stage four, a trigger Speaker: 00:29:36 threatens the perpetrator's control. Speaker: 00:29:39 So for example, the relationship ends or the Speaker: 00:29:42 perpetrator gets into financial difficulty. Speaker: 00:29:45 So within the model, I think you could Speaker: 00:29:48 stay in that coercive control stage for quite a long time. But this Speaker: 00:29:51 is when, as I was saying before, like, something externally Speaker: 00:29:54 might occur and it threatens essentially, you know, like the mental Speaker: 00:29:57 health of this perpetrator might decline. Their behaviours become more Speaker: 00:29:59 extreme. As a, you know, I'm Speaker: 00:30:02 m not going to try and justify it because it's like, you know, there's no Speaker: 00:30:05 justification to it, but you can. Anyone who's been in an Speaker: 00:30:08 abusive relationship will kind of know what I'm referring to here. Speaker: 00:30:11 So, yeah, again, step five is escalation. Speaker: 00:30:14 So it's increase in the intensity or frequency Speaker: 00:30:17 of the control tactics. So that cycle of abuse is Speaker: 00:30:20 getting smaller and smaller. you know, they're kicking off, you Speaker: 00:30:22 know, the time between these incidents is becoming Speaker: 00:30:25 shorter. it's not just once a month, it's now once a week Speaker: 00:30:28 and then, you know, every other day. one of the things as well Speaker: 00:30:31 is it's almost like a seesaw. So there'll be a really Speaker: 00:30:34 serious incident, you know, or like, and then the next Speaker: 00:30:37 day it'll be like, I love you, let's get married, like that sort of thing. Speaker: 00:30:40 So it's like, you know, it's. They know that they've upset Speaker: 00:30:43 the apple cart. So it's like drawing you back in and it just almost becomes. Speaker: 00:30:45 The highs and lows become quite extreme. Speaker: 00:30:48 so, yeah, so stage Speaker: 00:30:50 six. so this is obviously at stage five, it could be Speaker: 00:30:53 that the person has left the relationship. Speaker: 00:30:56 So, I think what we find in a lot of men who Speaker: 00:30:59 commit these kinds of offences is a tendency Speaker: 00:31:02 towards rumination. So it's like they feel like they've been Speaker: 00:31:04 wronged in some way. I think a lot of the time Speaker: 00:31:07 perpetrators kind of like don't Speaker: 00:31:10 always. They find ways to justify their behaviour Speaker: 00:31:13

so they don't have to deal with the shame of their behaviour or address it Speaker: 00:31:16 in any way. They find a way to blame the Victim. And Speaker: 00:31:18 so when that victim leaves, you know, then that, you know, they kind of like Speaker: 00:31:21 ruminate on that. so Speaker: 00:31:24 I think here we kind of. We can see it kind Speaker: 00:31:27 of like the path can diverge. So it can either be they Speaker: 00:31:30 kind of, you know, they might get into a new relationship and so then they're in the Speaker: 00:31:33 honeymoon period of that, so not really worrying about this person anymore, Speaker: 00:31:36 or it can be that they're now ruminating on this Speaker: 00:31:39 person. so stage seven is the Speaker: 00:31:41 planning. So they may buy weapons or seek opportunities to Speaker: 00:31:44 get the victim alone. as sage is Speaker: 00:31:47 the homicides. So I think again, if Speaker: 00:31:50 you're experiencing any kind of stalking behaviours Speaker: 00:31:53 that with a context of of Speaker: 00:31:56 coercive behaviour in your relationship, seek Speaker: 00:31:59 help. Like, you know, this is, like this is now you Speaker: 00:32:01 need to seek help because, especially if they're. Speaker: 00:32:04 Is it. I mean it's one thing to kind of like ruminate on Speaker: 00:32:07 a wrong. You know, we've all had breakups where we kind of think, oh, you know, Speaker: 00:32:10 that person, fuck right off. You know, they did this, they did that. That's part Speaker: 00:32:13 of processing a relationship. It's absolutely enough of Speaker: 00:32:16 another matter for that person to take those thoughts and put Speaker: 00:32:19 that into action. So, you know, that is not normal behaviour. Speaker: 00:32:21 It's not normal behaviour to you know, to follow Speaker: 00:32:24 someone. And stalking doesn't have to be. There are lots of other ways Speaker: 00:32:27 that stalking can occur that isn't necessarily like someone physically outside Speaker: 00:32:30 your window. We live in the information age. We've got computers, we've Speaker: 00:32:33 got phones, we've got other ways we can track people. Speaker: 00:32:35 >> Wo0: It was also like the threat of it. So I, When they Speaker: 00:32:38 say that they're going to be there, like when you open the door, Speaker: 00:32:41 so you. So you don't know if you can open the door Speaker: 00:32:44 and you don't know, know if you like, look around the Speaker: 00:32:47 corner if they're going to be there. Do you know what I mean? And that dread Speaker: 00:32:50 there probably never are. But you still think every Speaker: 00:32:53 single time you leave your house that they're going to be there. Speaker: 00:32:56 >> Lucy: I left the country. I left the country due to the Speaker: 00:32:58 lack of police response in my case. I, mean, the police did Speaker: 00:33:01 respond. They agreed the risk I was at, but they just didn't help. They Speaker: 00:33:04 weren't particularly. And I don't. Again, I don't want to put people off Speaker: 00:33:07 in terms of like, if they do want to seek prosecution, do. But Speaker: 00:33:10 it was quite delayed and because of my knowledge of these Speaker: 00:33:13 steps, I left the country. Speaker: 00:33:16 it's terrifying. And I don't think, unless you've been through it, you can Speaker: 00:33:19 really understand what it's like to live under that level of Speaker: 00:33:21 fear. And again, that ties into what we were saying Speaker: 00:33:24 with the dash, where it's. It's the victim's intuitive sense Speaker: 00:33:27 of fear as well. And so it may not make sense to those professionals. Speaker: 00:33:30 Yeah, but if this woman is terrified, you need to listen to her because Speaker: 00:33:33 she may not be able to, as you say, vocalise like, the Speaker: 00:33:36 whole mishmash of, like, weird, controlling, coercive Speaker: 00:33:39 behaviours that she's lived up there, but she is afraid. So you need to take that Speaker: 00:33:42 seriously, you know? Speaker: 00:33:43 >> Wo0: Yeah. And every, like, thing on its own, Speaker: 00:33:46 isolated, is like. Probably sounds Speaker: 00:33:49 completely normal, but. But when they're Speaker: 00:33:52 all together and they're adding up, it is. It's Speaker: 00:33:55 scary. Speaker: 00:33:56 >> Lucy: No, it is. And so it's almost like, that was it, Speaker: 00:33:59 like plausible deniability or something. you Speaker: 00:34:02 know, so it's like, as you say, each thing you just think, oh, why are you worried Speaker: 00:34:05 about that? But it's like. And I think as well, Speaker: 00:34:08 like, sometimes with victims, I certainly Speaker: 00:34:11 find this, is that it's actually hard to even Speaker: 00:34:14 kind of like, think about the worst bits that Speaker: 00:34:17 you've been through. So you're trying to, like, explain it to Justice Special. Speaker: 00:34:20 And it's like, almost like my brain was going like, super. I just couldn't Speaker: 00:34:23 really speak properly because I was so traumatised Speaker: 00:34:26 that, like. And so. And so then it's. Then you're not. You're struggling to actually Speaker: 00:34:29 get the information you need to the professional people, if you know what I mean. Speaker: 00:34:32 So it's, you know, there's a lot, lot that goes on within these dynamics Speaker: 00:34:34 that, But, yeah, ah, but I think if you Speaker: 00:34:37 can, if you at least have this information, you can Speaker: 00:34:40 then make a safety plan. So even if you Speaker: 00:34:43 don't want to get the police involved, you can make a safety plan that includes the Speaker: 00:34:46 police or that doesn't include the police. Do you see what I Speaker: 00:34:49 mean? because, you know, there are things you can

do to like, Speaker: 00:34:52 you know, you can. You can move to a different area, you could secure your Speaker: 00:34:54 property. you could ask the infra service. You know, you could get Speaker: 00:34:57 a panic button put in your. In your home. There are things you can Speaker: 00:35:00 do to you to make yourself safe without necessarily Speaker: 00:35:03 getting the police involved. Speaker: 00:35:05 >> Wo0: Amazing. Speaker: 00:35:07 We're obviously going to put all of that, information in the show Speaker: 00:35:10 notes and I've been opening tabs as you've Speaker: 00:35:13 been talking about the power and control wheel. Speaker: 00:35:15 >> Lucy: So that was a huge info dump. But, it's just. This is just Speaker: 00:35:18 information. I feel like people should. People should know because it Speaker: 00:35:21 kept me. I genuinely believe it kept me safe. Speaker: 00:35:24 >> Wo0: no, I, I agree with you. Like, I wish that I'd Speaker: 00:35:27 have known that kind of stuff. So this happened to me a Speaker: 00:35:30 long time ago. So like 25 years ago was the Speaker: 00:35:33 violent stuff and like when I was going outside and the Speaker: 00:35:35 fear of even Speaker: 00:35:38 like not being asleep. Do you know what I mean? Speaker: 00:35:41 >> Lucy: I. I struggled to allow myself to sleep Speaker: 00:35:44 because I was so frightened. I actually didn't want to close my eyes at one point Speaker: 00:35:47 because I felt so unsafe. and I know that probably sounds extreme Speaker: 00:35:50 and I think sometimes your fear actually does cross of. Speaker: 00:35:53 Well, no, but I think sometimes you. You get so afraid of what Speaker: 00:35:56 might happen, they actually, you know, your fear is always not Speaker: 00:35:59 necessarily representative of. Do you see what I mean? But Speaker: 00:36:02 it is because of what you've been through. So. Speaker: 00:36:04 >> Wo0: But I would pretend to be asleep so Speaker: 00:36:06 that I would get left alone. Do you know what I Speaker: 00:36:09 mean? So I wouldn't be asleep. I'd know very much what Speaker: 00:36:12 was going on. But I'd just like, m. Oh, why are you in bed at 5 Speaker: 00:36:15 o'clock in the interview? Yeah. Speaker: 00:36:18 Thank you so much, Lucy. Speaker: 00:36:23 Right, so I want to hear. Speaker: 00:36:26 So, because we're not man bashing on this. We, Speaker: 00:36:29 we're like. I love men, especially love Speaker: 00:36:32 men. So can you, like, tell Speaker: 00:36:34 me a positive example of a man Speaker: 00:36:37 showing their support to you or Speaker: 00:36:40 showing up for you? No. Speaker: 00:36:43 >> Lucy: Yeah, So I think, I think like, Speaker: 00:36:45 we. I think Speaker: 00:36:48 one of the things I had to do because I was one of those people who had been in Speaker: 00:36:51 more than one kind of like, Speaker: 00:36:54 not, very healthy relationship and so I had to kind of like quite Speaker: 00:36:57 actively reflect on like, what were my patterns within Speaker: 00:37:00 relationships. and so, you know, again, Speaker: 00:37:03 like a little shout out because there's programmes you can join for this. Women Speaker: 00:37:06 who's been in more, more than one relationship. for example, the Freedom Speaker: 00:37:09 Programme. So please, like, ask around for that. That. Speaker: 00:37:12 But. So I think things like Speaker: 00:37:15 when, when people are good listeners but you can trust Speaker: 00:37:18 them with that information. And I know that sounds silly but, like Speaker: 00:37:21 I. My husband is just honestly the Speaker: 00:37:24 sweetest person, so I know that I can talk to him about anything. Speaker: 00:37:27 I think as well, because he. He's also a, professional. He's worked in this. Speaker: 00:37:30 So he think he a. He gets where I'm coming from. I don't Speaker: 00:37:33 have to like, try and like, explain it to him too Speaker: 00:37:36 much because he. Because he works in that field. But, B, Speaker: 00:37:38 I know that, A, I can trust him with that information, and he Speaker: 00:37:41 doesn't judge me because I think when you've been through a Speaker: 00:37:44 situation where you've opened up and you've been vulnerable to people, they've m. Speaker: 00:37:47 Then used that information to harm you. you know, or Speaker: 00:37:50 to create more like, creative ways to just, like, you know, Speaker: 00:37:53 psychologically abuse you, to then be able to then open up to someone, actually Speaker: 00:37:56 know. Like, you know, this is a safe person. This is someone I can trust with my Speaker: 00:37:59 emotions. But I can't even begin to tell you. It's like, oh, Speaker: 00:38:01 like, I didn't know you could have relationships like this. Speaker: 00:38:04 Amazing. Speaker: 00:38:05 >> Wo0: Oh, I'm so happy for you. Like, Speaker: 00:38:07 goals. And finally, my Speaker: 00:38:10 love, can you tell us, one Speaker: 00:38:13 piece of clothing that you Speaker: 00:38:16 wear that makes you feel powerful or Speaker: 00:38:18 beautiful? Could be your brown leather Speaker: 00:38:21 jacket. Speaker: 00:38:23 >> Lucy: I mean, I probably would go for that jacket. I got. I got married Speaker: 00:38:26 in that jacket. but, I mean, I've never been a huge. Like, Speaker: 00:38:29 I'm a little gremlin. I would just wear trackies, you know, I mean, Speaker: 00:38:32 trackies everywhere in the pyjamas of the day. But Speaker: 00:38:35 I think, yeah, I'm gonna go for that leather jacket. It's, Speaker: 00:38:38 It's heavy as hell, but it, Speaker: 00:38:40 Yeah, I feel good when I wear it. Speaker: 00:38:43 I love that. Speaker: 00:38:45 >> Wo0: Oh, bless you, Lucy. Thank you so much for Speaker: 00:38:47 coming on. You are an absolute angel. Speaker: 00:38:50 >> Lucy: Thank you for having me. Speaker: 00:38:51 >> Wo0: And I will see you. Speaker: 00:38:52 >> Lucy: Sorry if your ears have melted from all that information. Speaker: 00:38:55 >> Wo0: No, no, I just know it's really good. Speaker: 00:38:57 >> Lucy: Thank you you so much for having me. Speaker: 00:38:58 >> Wo0: Thanks, Lucy. I love Speaker: 00:39:00 you. Speaker: 00:39:04 That's it for today's episode of Don't Fucking Tell Me what to Wear Speaker: 00:39:07 or How to Run My Business on the Woopod with me, Speaker: 00:39:10 Wendy Gannon. This is more than just a podcast. Speaker: 00:39:12 It's part of female 5 million. Head to the link in the Speaker: 00:39:15 show notes to find out more about our movement to empower Speaker: 00:39:18 women. 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