התמלול המלא של Staying Small, Trauma & Questioning Normal with Debbie Harrell

00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:39.199 Okay. 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:50.959 So tell me about what it was like growing up as a latchkey kid in Southern California and what that was like and why that actually was happening. 00:04:50.959 --> 00:05:06.399 Because I think also when people say they're a latchkey kid, there's this misunderstanding in some ways, be it right or wrong, that, you know, parents just lock their um kids up in their home when they come home from school and that's it. 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:08.959 But what are the reasons that that is done? 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:14.079 Well, in my situation, my mom was a single mom, so she was at work. 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:17.199 When I was younger, my cousin would be at home when I got there. 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:22.399 But then once I was old enough to legally take care of myself, what is that, like 10, I think? 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:30.399 I would come home, let myself in, have a snack, and then usually go directly outside to play with my friends. 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:32.319 Completely unsupervised. 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:41.680 I mean, other friends had moms that were in the homes, so we weren't necessarily completely if something catastrophic happened, there was a home we could probably go to. 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.639 But for the most part, we were taking care of ourselves. 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.839 And at the time, that seemed great. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:48.800 That was fun. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:49.519 Okay. 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:56.240 So on top of that, you were an only child and you were also living with your mom's boyfriend as well. 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:07.279 So talk about that situation because that kind of like drives a lot of your story as well, because of how you had to sort of conform your personality to fit into that situation. 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:08.399 So can you talk about that? 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:12.079 Yeah, he was a consummate narcissistic misogynist. 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:17.759 I refer to him as the villain of my story or the villain of my childhood because he really was. 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:19.519 But he was also my father figure. 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:24.319 I never met my biological father until I was 25, you know. 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:35.519 So a lot of my childhood quote unquote stuff stems from him and my mom's relationship and the choices my mom made regarding him and me. 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:42.319 Often it was perceived he was she was choosing him over me, and and a lot of times she was actually choosing him over me. 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:48.240 As an adult, I can look back and I can understand why she was, because she was being abused by this man. 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:49.839 She was being emotionally abused by him. 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.439 So did you sense that? 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:52.639 Did were you aware of that? 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:54.800 I was on the receiving end of it too as a child. 00:06:54.800 --> 00:07:02.639 So I didn't understand it as a child, but you know, being told on a daily basis to well, we were definitely it was definitely a household where children should be seen and not heard. 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:04.240 That was a common phrase at the time. 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:11.199 But I was told on a regular basis how I was ugly, nobody liked me, I would never amount to anything, you know. 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.879 Really heartwarming messages to share with a child. 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:21.519 Because a lot of the time we were alone, because he didn't work, he rarely had a he didn't hold a steady job. 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:22.800 So my mom had a steady job. 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:34.560 She was there eight to five, 52 weeks out of the year, rarely took vacation because we couldn't afford to vacation, because she was working so hard to take care of not only me, but him, because he couldn't hold a steady job. 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:38.160 So there were a lot of times we were at home alone together. 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:45.439 Looking back as an adult, I can and have done some of the work myself to recognize, like, oh, I could see what was happening to her. 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:47.120 And I can hold space for both. 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:52.240 I can recognize that I understand why she was making these choices and why it was happening that way. 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:55.519 But it was also unhealthy and and caused harm to me. 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:03.680 So did you have any safe space that you could go to, or was there anybody else who was aware of what was happening who you could reach out to? 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.639 There were people who were aware, like I was really good at adopting families, other families. 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:16.160 So like my best friend, their family usually became my friend, who are my best friend at the period of time. 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:36.639 And some parents were open to that, others not as much, because there was still a little s a lot of stigma around single moms and what their character might be, and so what my character might be as the offspring of said, you know, single mom, salacious, you know. 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:41.840 But for the most part, I was a good kid because I was, you know, trying to stay safe at school. 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:44.639 You know, I was a good student, so I got rewarded. 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:51.360 And so I learned, okay, I behave this way, do all my work, school was easier for me. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.080 So I did get that, and that was a safe space. 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.759 So school was a safe space, my friends' homes were a safe space. 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:00.720 In my house, the safest space was my bedroom. 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:07.759 So I was definitely the kid who when I was in the house, I was in my bedroom with the door shut with my own stuff. 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:16.639 My mom recognized that, so she set me up pretty good

that I could exist in there safely because a lot of it was, you know, stay quiet, fly under the radar. 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:18.639 Like if he just forgets I'm here. 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.879 I would often go in and out my bedroom window so that they wouldn't know. 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.480 It wasn't necessarily I was sneaking out for the reasons people sneak out. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:29.200 I just didn't want him to remember that I existed. 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:34.720 But I had my own television, I had my own phone back when we had those phones attached to the wall. 00:09:34.970 --> 00:09:36.159 So what are those? 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.559 I don't even have one of those anymore. 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:39.759 Not many people do. 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:41.440 I know, it's crazy. 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:52.720 Okay, so I just heard you say that you were a smart student and I guess you were putting all your efforts into school because no matter which effort you put in at home, it didn't matter. 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:57.039 So how were things at school and also in terms of friendships as well? 00:09:57.039 --> 00:09:59.919 Did did your friends have any idea what was going on? 00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:01.279 Did you talk to them about it? 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:02.879 What age were you when this was happening? 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:03.919 Oh, all along. 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:11.759 They got together when I was probably five or six, so kindergarten-ish, and all the way up until she passed away in 2017, she was with him. 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:20.559 He would leave occasionally and have, you know, other girlfriends in other households, but they wouldn't put up with his baloney and they would send him packing and he'd come back to my mom. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.200 So yeah, he was around always. 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:33.360 But in terms of your friendships at school, did you ever I mean obviously as you got older and you were more able to talk about what was going on at school, did you ever talk about it amongst your friends? 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:38.960 Yeah, my friends were were yeah, they were well aware and we avoided my house at all costs. 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:41.120 And when we do, it was like, is he there? 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:42.960 You know, like the walking on eggshells. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.200 Well, if we just go really quick to my room, you know. 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.000 You said that you were favored by teachers as well. 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:54.080 So what were you doing at school that you were I mean, obviously I think you were doing you said you were doing sports as well? 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.879 No, I played a little sports in high school, but I had to quit because he required I get a job. 00:10:59.120 --> 00:10:59.279 Okay. 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:03.759 And it didn't work, you know, school, work, and sports was a little challenging. 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:04.399 Yeah. 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:10.000 So let's move on to that because you said that um you started working when you were in high school. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.279 I mean, what age is that? 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:14.240 I mean, what what age are you legally allowed to work in the States? 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:14.879 I don't even know. 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.159 I think it's 16. 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.240 I think that's when you can get a per work bread. 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.480 I think you can actually get one younger now. 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:28.080 I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I believe I was right around 15 or 16 and he started putting the pressure on me to get a job. 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:28.799 Why? 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:29.679 I don't know. 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:31.759 Because he had such a strong work ethic. 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.960 I don't know, because he wanted me to make money, so there was more money for him. 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:38.399 And your mom didn't intervene and say no, just keep up with your studies. 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.960 No, my mom was also trying to fly under the radar and not encounter his wrath. 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:44.720 No, she did not intervene. 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:45.200 Okay. 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:47.519 So you started working doing what? 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:58.320 I worked at this fun t-shirt shop in this little shopping center that was very geared towards tourism because where I grew up was basically the port of Los Angeles. 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:03.200 So that's where all the cruise ships docked, and so a lot of the cruisers would shop in this little village. 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:13.919 And I joke about the how much it reminds me of where this the town I ended up living in when I moved to Catalina Island, the town of Avalon is very similar to that little port. 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:16.720 So you got to meet a lot of people from different places. 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:19.440 Yeah, but I was a kid, I you know, I was a teenager. 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:23.200 I was more interested in the other teenagers working in the other shops, you know. 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:27.919 We had the t-shirt shop, had the ice cream shop next door, the lemonade stand, you know. 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:28.720 It was fun. 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.919 I'm laughing because I grew up in the Bahamas, as I told you before. 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:34.799 So in Nassau, where all the cruise ships come in as well. 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:42.000 And I actually worked on a cruise ship one summer and I used to do stuff like hand out pamphlets to the people who were getting off the cruise ships. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.600 And I remember one person asked me once, do you speak English here? 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:47.519 I thought, are you kidding me? 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:52.000 You don't even know where you're where you're going, the people, what language they speak. 00:12:52.159 --> 00:13:03.519 But the reason I asked

you that question was for me growing up in the Bahamas, I always had all these different people from all over the world, my teachers, people coming on the cruise ships, tourists, and I always thought, oh, where do they live? 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:03.919 That's cool. 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:04.639 I want to go. 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:08.480 So I wanted to get out of there as soon as I could and leave there. 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:09.679 And uh yeah. 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:11.200 Anyway, let's see. 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:16.639 What are the other opportunities that you think you missed out on because you were working at such an early age? 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:21.440 Yeah, the the opportunity to play sports or participate in any extracurricular activity. 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:25.360 Part of it was financial and part of it was like I had to work. 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.440 And then once I had the job, you know, I did enjoy having the money. 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.960 I enjoyed the people I worked with, and it was now a safe space, right? 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:34.080 It was out of the house. 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:35.120 So I worked a lot. 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:36.399 I worked as much as I could. 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:39.039 Did you have to hand over the money or could you keep it? 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:40.639 No, I was just thinking about that. 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.039 I'm like, no, I spent it all, I'm sure. 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.320 I don't remember having a big savings at the end of high school. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.720 I'm sure part of it went to my mom. 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:58.159 I don't have a really strong recollection of where all that money went, but it probably went a lot to me eating out, buying clothes, you know, typical teenage stuff. 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:02.000 Yeah, I was just curious because you said the what did you call him? 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:02.720 The villain. 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:03.440 The villain. 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:04.639 Yeah, I was about to say the monster. 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:05.279 That's not it. 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:08.399 The villain that he was the one who demanded you to have the job. 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:12.559 So I was wondering if he demanded you also hand over your money as well. 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.440 Yeah, I don't remember it was that obvious. 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:20.000 I feel like I was just expected to pay for a lot more of my needs. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:25.120 And so that my mom had less financial responsibility toward me and probably could give him more. 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:27.759 How did that affect your studies at school, if at all? 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:29.519 My studies were okay. 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.200 I went in a few rebellious phases. 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:40.080 School was pretty easy for me, but there was a a point at time where I like I didn't get one of the classes I needed. 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:53.200 And so they put me in,

it was like a more academically enriched English class, and they put me in the regular English class, and I felt so othered in there because the teacher was constantly looking to me to like help the other students, which was great. 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.480 But I was I went to school in a pretty diverse high school. 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:00.480 I had terrible self-esteem issues because of the home I grew up in. 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:04.960 And the way she went about it, it really othered me. 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:06.639 It made me feel othered. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:14.799 And then the kids just looked at me as like the awkward, nerdy, you know, and I just decided I just stopped going to that class. 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:16.320 So I just never went to that class again. 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:17.679 Obviously, I failed it. 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.279 So then I had to make it up in summer school, right? 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.720 And usually summer school is the place for the bad kids. 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:31.200 But I loved the teacher that I had for English that that summer school, and it I was more challenged. 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:38.399 And so I went through some rebellious phases of schools that did affect my grades, but all in all, school was pretty easy. 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:39.679 My teachers liked me. 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:40.639 I liked my teachers. 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:47.039 I had a a good group of friends, but for the most part, I was the shy, awkward, scrawny white girl. 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:47.519 I don't know. 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:52.720 And how did that play in your interactions with people when you say say you lacked confidence? 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:57.919 I mean, how did that play out in your relationships with people? 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:05.200 Yeah, in in general, I was still operating on that be seen and not heard, you know, like or trying to fly under the radar. 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:10.960 I always sat in the back of the classroom, the back of any room I would go to, so I could, you know, be in the corner. 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:11.440 Okay. 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:12.399 Don't look at me. 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:16.559 Like I'm still I still don't like that, like drawing attention to myself. 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:20.159 It's really hard for me to speak up in a crowd, even when I know everybody. 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:20.879 All right. 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:29.039 So you said that you applied to university, but you ended up just not being supported by your family and encouraged. 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:30.559 So what happened with that? 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:35.279 Yeah, I was accepted to a couple of the universities I applied to, all on my own, right? 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.159 Nobody, I don't even remember a counselor at school helping me. 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:40.559 I was just like, I love school, I love learning. 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:42.080 Of course I want to go on. 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:51.840 And I applied and then recognized how much it was gonna cost and what am I gonna do and how am I gonna get there and zero re uh support from my family. 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.879 And so I decided, okay, I guess I'm not gonna do that. 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:59.360 And I just ended up going to junior college, still working. 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.240 But because I was now 18, I wanted out of the house as soon as I could. 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:10.640 So I ended up moving in with friends and becoming a full-fledged adult as soon as I could. 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:16.559 So you studied general education and you had an interest in sciences, particularly marine biology. 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:17.200 I don't know. 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.599 That kind of fits for me with somebody growing up in California. 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.480 It does be interesting in marine biology. 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:24.160 But why that in particular? 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:26.000 I mean, are you a big ocean person? 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:27.279 Yeah, definitely. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:38.640 I've recognized that as I've gotten older, the idea of moving different places, right, because it's more affordable or you can have a, you know, different things that you can't have really in Southern California. 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.759 And I always go back to, but there's no ocean there. 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:53.839 I have gotten used to the idea of, oh, maybe if as long as there's a river or a lake nearby, some body of water, as long as I can look at and the sun can reflect off of it, I feel like they'll give me the same. 00:17:54.079 --> 00:18:03.759 That's funny because I was recently watching something and it was just these crashing waves coming on the beach with cliffs, and I was thinking, oh my gosh, I haven't been near water in two years. 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:04.640 I need to go. 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.599 And me growing up on an island, can you imagine? 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.400 You have to get a fix every now and then. 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.079 And there's a couple of lakes around where I live, but it's not the same. 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:18.400 Anyway, so you ended up moving to Catalina Island. 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:21.119 So how did that whole thing happen? 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.240 Because you went there and then you came back and then you went again for good. 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:25.200 O h, yeah. 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:30.240 I'm loving this whole this is your life uh 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:30.880 flow. 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:41.200 Um, after school, I was going, I was working full-time, supporting myself because of course I moved out right away. 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:45.119 I started dating a guy, we moved in together. 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:49.359 I quickly realized that I was in the same relationship my mother was. 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:54.480 I was like, I recognize this and I need to get out as soon as

possible. 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:56.640 Luckily, I had the realization. 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:03.039 I still remember calling my mom and telling her, I can't believe I said the words to her, but like I that I didn't want to end up like her. 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:05.519 She was very gracious about it. 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.119 And she says, I don't want you to end up like me either, you know? 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.599 So come home if you need to come home. 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:13.279 And so that's what happened. 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:14.240 I moved home. 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:28.960 And not only did I move home into that toxic soup again, but now because I had moved out and moved to a whole different part of Southern California, my job was an hour and a half commute from my mom's house. 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:30.079 So I did that. 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:36.720 And then ironically, my ex's, the person I had moved out, one of his good friends was a girl, Jen. 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:38.559 She's actually who helped me move out of the house. 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:40.799 She's like, hey, let's go to Catalina Island for the weekend. 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:42.799 You know, like you've you've been a lot going on. 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:44.400 Let's go over there and have a fun weekend. 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:45.359 I was like, that sounds great. 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:45.839 Let's do it. 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:47.599 I hadn't been to Catalina since I was a kid. 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:50.640 Explain exactly where Catalina Island is for people who don't know. 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.480 It is a small island off of the coast of Southern California. 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:55.519 It's 26 miles. 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.960 There's actually a song, 26 miles across the sea. 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.119 So it's about an hour boat ride these days. 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:05.440 Back then it was closer to a two-hour boat road ride for the boat we could afford. 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.119 But we came over, had a great weekend, and decided we were going to move back. 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:10.000 It was in March. 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.039 So it was spring. 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.359 The island was gearing up for their summers. 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:17.119 She had worked here the summer before, so she already had a contact. 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.039 We put in our applications and were hired pretty much on the spot. 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.319 So that was in March. 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.400 And I moved back beginning of May. 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:31.519 So I went home, packed up all my stuff, gave notice at my job, and moved to the island with pretty much nothing. 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:33.680 And what drew you to that island? 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:40.400 I mean, it's small because you said that when the tourists aren't there, there's only something like 5,000 people. 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:44.160 Yeah, they say the the year-round population is around 5,000. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.119 I suspect it's a little bit more than that, but it's a good guesstimate. 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:53.440 I came that first weekend and we had the best time and met so many people and everyone was so nice. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.440 And it was it's it is. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:56.960 I've it's like a family. 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:58.960 It's a very tight-knit community. 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:00.319 Everybody knows everybody. 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:02.400 That's not always appealing to everybody. 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:04.480 To me at the time, it very much was. 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.640 So I was like, yeah, I'll come back for the summer. 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.240 We both moved back for the summer. 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:09.119 I joke about it. 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:13.920 She didn't even make it till the 4th of July, which is the big summer holiday in the United States. 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.440 She ran screaming from the island and I never left. 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:19.440 I'm here 35 years later. 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:24.000 You started to work in hospitality in the resort industry. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:30.079 So how did you integrate into that community and sort of get yourself into working for a job? 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:39.680 Because when you think about it, you actually you've you found a job and you managed to stay there when it was off season, which, you know, doesn't always happen in places like that. 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:41.359 So how did you manage that? 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.200 Because that's miraculous. 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:47.119 Because just like being a good student, I was a good employee. 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.880 That's very good because yeah, I know I wanted to stay safe. 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:53.119 And so I was a good employee. 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:56.960 I was and that that is part of the island culture. 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.839 It is a big party town, you know, people are having fun. 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:09.599 And maybe a little bit too much fun and showing up to work doesn't happen as regularly as or as timely or punctually, I guess is the word I'm looking for. 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.920 It was easy to be a good employee. 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:13.359 The bar was pretty low. 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.640 And guess also I was working for the company. 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:18.960 You know, you've heard the term a company town. 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.119 This is very much a company town, and I worked for the company, the island company. 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:27.119 So they were big enough to absorb some year-round employees. 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:33.599 Because I was a good employee, I got invited to stay, and I was so, you know, honored I stayed. 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:36.960 And the problem is I didn't go back to school, but it all worked out. 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:37.519 Okay. 00:22:37.519 -->

00:22:41.839 And you never thought about following through with your marine biology interests? 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:43.039 Yeah, I thought about it. 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:44.319 It would be great, right? 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:54.319 But I just got sucked into working and having fun with my friends and living my life and going to school, living on the island, especially at the time, because you just couldn't really do online stuff. 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.559 The internet barely existed, right? 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:01.279 So I did attempt to go back to school one or two classes a semester. 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:06.480 It proved to be too much and it was too financially difficult as well. 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.960 So it just kind of petered away. 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:10.400 And then I got pregnant. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:11.359 Surprise. 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:12.640 That was my next question. 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:17.119 So you had two children with different fathers, and they were both unplanned. 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:18.000 Yeah. 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.799 I don't do things the traditional way I've learned. 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.200 But you didn't do it early. 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.480 You still waited till you were, what, 26 and 30. 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.279 So you waited till you live life a bit. 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:30.000 Yeah. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.839 No, I was actually capable of being a decent parent. 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:43.519 So you had these two kids and raised them primarily as a single mom, but you still maintained uh friendly relationships with the fathers. 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.240 Yeah. 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.680 It was important to me, I think, because I grew up without a dad. 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:57.839 It was important to me that my kids have relationships with their fathers and just to keep it easier, you know, it would be easier if we all get along than we all do still. 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:00.559 And the fathers are on the island as well? 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:05.119 One has moved off, but the other is literally two houses up from me. 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.279 Co-parenting was easy then. 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.119 Oh, when we first split up, it was that partner definitely. 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.200 I lived right next door to him. 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:18.880 And there was a window from my house that was up against the stairway leading to his house. 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.079 So a lot of times my daughter would go back and forth through the window. 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:36.799 And I guess because it's so small, I mean, we sort of have this phrase, a village raises the children, because you've got the same people, the characters who are there, I guess, year-round, and they all, I guess, help raise the kids. 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:39.119 Yeah, because everybody knows everybody. 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:44.240 And I can remember when my son was young, he was on

a school outing. 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.279 They were out walking on the street, and he did something. 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:48.799 It wasn't like he was being bad. 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:50.240 He was just being a little mischievous. 00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:52.559 And somebody saw that and told me about it. 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:54.640 Like as I saw Daniel, he would blah, blah, blah. 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.559 And so I went to Daniel that night and I was like, oh, and I relayed the story. 00:24:58.559 --> 00:24:59.920 I didn't say who told me. 00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:02.240 I just said and that was his first. 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:03.599 He's like, How do you know that? 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.519 I'm like, moms know everything. 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:09.039 That was his first little lesson in like, everybody knows. 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:10.480 So don't be a dork. 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.000 They didn't mind that. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.880 I mean, living in this very small, or they just didn't know any better. 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.440 No, I think they actually love it. 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.200 And they still do. 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.599 I tried to move them off the island because I did try to do it the right way. 00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:31.680 I got married when my son was going into high school and we decided let's get you to the mainland into like a more challenging academic situation, you know? 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:32.640 It didn't last. 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:38.720 He did two years, and he's like, I really would like to move back to the island so I can be there for my senior year with my friends. 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:45.920 Also recognizing that the relationship I'd gotten myself into had uh features that I recognized again. 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:48.079 So that marriage didn't last. 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:52.240 And my son moved back to the island, and then my daughter and I followed pretty quickly. 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:58.319 And this is the son you said that he was diagnosed with seizure disorder at the age of 14. 00:25:58.720 --> 00:25:59.039 Yes. 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:04.000 That was uh it happened just a few weeks after we relocated to the mainland. 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:11.519 And I've written here to myself a note that says it's led to you going down a rabbit hole of doing research on nutrition. 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:12.319 Why was that? 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.920 I was fascinated with everything about the brain. 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.200 It got me really into anything neurological. 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.319 I read this book, uh, The Brain Gut Psychology. 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:29.440 It's mainly about uh autism and ADHD, but they did have one section in there about seizure disorders. 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:31.920 So I was like, hmm, this is interesting. 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:40.319 And then of course, we're learning more about the ketogenic diet and other ways to work with seizures

um and a diet. 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:42.240 And did you do that and did it work? 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:42.720 No. 00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:58.960 My son, who was also a very good kid, very easygoing, I started kind of pushing him on the diet idea, and he snapped at me and he says, Unless you can guarantee 100% that I'm never gonna have another seizure, I'm not changing the way I eat. 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:01.839 And that was his little teenage rebellious rebellion. 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:03.359 And I'm like, you know what? 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:04.799 I I can respect that. 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.039 He'll he's gotta come to it in his own time. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:12.720 And luckily for him, his seizures were pretty well controlled with medication. 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:15.119 I'm knocking on wood as I'm saying that. 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:19.119 He hasn't had one and I think we gotta be getting up to two years. 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:21.200 Maybe he's outgrown them, finally. 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:22.000 Who knows? 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.759 I also learned at that time that doctors don't know everything. 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:27.839 They actually know very little. 00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.079 I mean, they know a lot more than we do, right? 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:37.039 They've been in school for a long time, but they can't possibly know everything about every system in the human body. 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.359 The human body is pretty darn complex. 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:57.119 Yeah, there was actually somebody else who I had on the show who she had seizures, and it turned out that later sh when she recognized that she had all this trauma that she had buried and sort of forgotten about because it was a it was abuse. 00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:08.079 And when she started to do that healing and realize and recognize all of that trauma, her seizures started to become less and less. 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:09.920 So it's interesting correlation. 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:13.440 No, I 100% don't doubt that. 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:16.400 And it's one thing I've talked to my son about it several times. 00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:30.640 He tries to reassure me, but I feel a lot of guilt for the move, moving to the mainland, believing that that was likely just too stressful for his teenage brain and body to navigate that. 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:36.720 So I believe the stress of the move contributed to him developing that seizure disorder. 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:38.799 And your daughter was fine with the move? 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.880 Well, yeah, she was she was in third grade, so like nine-ish. 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:44.720 My son is very much like me. 00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:58.160 He's a Virgo consummate, like he likes order, he's quiet, he's more contemplative, where my daughter is just bubbly and loves to tell stories and can talk to anybody. 00:28:58.160 --> 00:28:59.279 She doesn't think she can. 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:00.400 She'll be like, no, I can't. 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:02.799 I'm like, oh my gosh, Madeline, you're so great at that, you know? 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:06.480 So she acclimated to the move much easier than he did. 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:09.599 And at that age, it's just easier to make friends when you're nine. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:17.279 And did you ever question the fact that you keep sort of having these relationships that were reflecting that of your mother? 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:18.000 Yeah. 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:20.480 All of my stuff showing up in all of my relationships. 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:21.279 Yeah, it's a thing. 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:21.599 Yeah. 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.640 And did you ever talk to anybody about that or have any kind of therapy at that point? 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:32.480 I went to therapy with my with my son's father, was the first time I went to therapy. 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.680 We did couples therapy that went over like a lead balloon. 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:38.240 And I saw her on my own for a while. 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.119 But then, yes, I saw therapists throughout the years. 00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:49.039 I'm also, when I was young, some of the happy childhood memories I have were of going to the library. 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:55.440 And I always, even at a young age, gravitated towards the self-help, personal development shelves. 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.359 So I read a lot about different. 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:04.480 Of course, I'm like, shoot, she's gonna ask me about a book, and I'm like, I can't think of any books right now. 00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:05.599 I won't, I won't. 00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:08.000 I read all these books and I can't think of one of them. 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.039 But so I read a lot. 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.039 It's the menopause, don't worry. 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:24.240 Watched a lot of, I can remember being a kid watching Phil Donahue and you know, Oprah, and you learn a lot about just hearing other people's stories and like what she experienced is a lot like me, and they're saying that that is trauma. 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:24.880 What's this? 00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:25.759 What what is that? 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:30.960 I don't, I don't that, you know, because you know, I didn't always have a lot of money. 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:37.039 I was working hard, but as we all know, the minimum wage isn't enough to sustain anybody, especially in Southern California. 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:44.319 So I didn't have the extra money to go to a therapist most of my adult, young adult life. 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:45.119 All right. 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:53.200 So let's move to the year 2017 to 2018, because that's what you call the year of suck. 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.839 I've called it many things, so that is that is an accurate description. 00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.480 It started off, I guess, with your mom. 00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:01.440 Yes. 00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:05.039

My mom was diagnosed with a form of leukemia. 00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:07.839 Of course, it's sad, devastating. 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.359 I'm like, how can I help? 00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:14.960 Everything's fine, you know, Mike her, the villain. 00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:16.480 He's being so great. 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.160 He's taking such good care of me. 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.559 And I'm like, oh little suspect, but I'm so happy. 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.119 That's great. 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:24.400 I'm glad he's stepping up. 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:32.960 She had been invited into a trial in Stanford, which is a prestigious school in the Bay Area. 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:36.000 So that was hopeful and exciting. 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:39.519 And then she got the flu and she ended up in the hospital. 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:41.680 Um, I talked to her, she's in the hospital. 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:44.640 they were going to discharge her because she was better. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.079 And then she was going up to Stanford a couple days after that. 00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:56.480 We had agreed I was going to come over and take her to Stanford because, oh, surprise, surprise, he wasn't being as helpful as she had originally said he was. 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.319 So I was making plans to come over a couple days. 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.559 She went home after the flu. 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:17.680 And either because I believe he contributed to her passing because she ended up falling and hitting her head and had a brain contusion, or I don't I don't know the medical terminology at this point. 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:20.559 Lost consciousness and never regained consciousness. 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:29.920 So if he was supposed to be taking care of her, if he wasn't there and she fell, or even worse, he pushed her in some way, she fell. 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:31.039 That was that. 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:42.960 So he called me and I got on the first boat, got over there, but she never regained consciousness because they were never legally married, all the decisions were to me to decide. 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:46.559 So yeah, I spent that day with her as she passed. 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:50.559 And it was probably the first day I'd probably the first day I'd spent with her in years, maybe. 00:32:50.880 --> 00:33:09.279 Yeah, because I was just gonna ask you, had you ever really, for lack of a better word, say reconciled or talked to her about, you know, your whole life and what was happening, or at that point were you really not very conscious still of what it had initiated in your own life? 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:14.799 No, I didn't have exactly the words to know exactly how it had impacted my life. 00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:19.759 I just knew it wasn't good and it wasn't something I wanted my kids around. 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.079 So it we did talk about it over the years. 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:25.359 Like she knew what my feelings were and she understood. 00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:32.880 It doesn't make it any easier to think about mourning my mom, but then also mourning the relationship we never had. 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:37.519 It's a whole different, a whole nother level to the impact of the loss. 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:47.759 But no, yeah, it was when my my son was younger and I wanted to go do something and I needed a babysitter, and I remember taking him to see grandma because that would be fun, right? 00:33:47.759 --> 00:34:00.880 I had a great relationship with my grandma, but then I remember picking him up and he was there, the villain, and thinking like, shit, wait, am I allowed to I forgot to ask, am I allowed to potty mouth on your fine. 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:01.839 Okay, it's fine. 00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:02.880 You can potty mouth. 00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:04.720 I'm like, yeah, that's right. 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.039 I don't want my son in this house. 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:08.639 Like, what am I thinking? 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:09.599 This isn't good. 00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:13.199 So the I talked to my mom, I'm like, I'm just not really comfortable. 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:17.760 So then from then on out, when she would come to the island and spend time with him. 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.119 Yeah, that's how it was most of their younger childhood. 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:23.199 Then as they got older, it got less and less. 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:28.880 So yeah, right before she passed, we weren't really in each other's lives that regularly. 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.239 So was that the end of any of your dealings with the villain? 00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:33.920 You would think, right? 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:35.360 No, I got a call. 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.199 Gosh, it wasn't even a full year. 00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:43.760 No, it wasn't a full year after my mom passed from this woman claiming to be my dad's girlfriend. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:49.760 Because remember, I told you I finally did meet my biological father when I was uh 25, but he had already passed. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:54.079 So I was like, my my dad's dead and I know his wife. 00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:55.119 Like, what are you doing? 00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:57.360 Like, who is this trying to figure out what is going on? 00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.960 Like, I think you've got the wrong number. 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.559 And then she said, Mike, and I'm like, oh, well, that's not my dad. 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:07.039 And then I'm like, were you aware of my mom who just passed like eight months ago? 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.119 And she's like, Oh yeah, I'm aware. 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:10.480 I'm aware of her. 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.920 I I said, Do you mind me asking how long you've been with him? 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.079 And she said, 10 years. 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.519 And I said, Coming again, were you aware of my mom? 00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:20.239 Oh, yes. 00:35:20.239

--> 00:35:27.119 So the story he had told her is that he stayed with my mom, who was an alcoholic, which is ridiculous. 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:28.559 He was an alcoholic. 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:31.119 He stayed with her because she was an alcoholic. 00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:34.400 So he stayed to take care of her so I wouldn't have to. 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:35.280 Wow. 00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.239 Right? 00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.000 This is what this woman's telling me. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:41.280 And I'm like, I mean, I was vibrating. 00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.280 And for 10 years she believed that. 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:44.320 Yeah, for 10 years. 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:45.920 Uh, she's she still believes it. 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:58.559 So the reason she was calling me is he was in a medically induced coma and needed some sort of procedure, but they needed authorization from a family member to proceed. 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:02.000 So he needed some self-life-saving procedure. 00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.440 And I'm like, damn, I should have said I was his daughter. 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:06.960 Missed opportunity. 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.119 And I'm just like, sorry, I can't help you. 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.519 I know very little about his family. 00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:18.639 He never talked about his family because I think they probably, I don't know, maybe they were abusive, and that's why he didn't talk about them. 00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:24.480 Or maybe they like, you know, go on, get out of here, because you are a problem. 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:31.840 And he ended up getting the authorization from someone, or it got emergent enough that the hospital was able to proceed to save his life. 00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:33.679 But as far as I know, he is still alive. 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:34.159 All right. 00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:34.880 Let's just move on. 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:35.840 Yeah That was a tangent. 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:37.199 Yeah, that was a long t angent. 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:43.280 Because that is just too weird to even imagine that somebody is with somebody for 10 years and believes such a lie anyway. 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:43.760 Yeah. 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:44.400 Bonkers. 00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:45.360 Yeah, I guess we put blinders on. 00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:46.480 He was good. 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:53.280 He was manipulative, and I'm sure he was gaslighting and emotionally abusing her just like he did my mom. 00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:54.079 All right. 00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:00.800 I don't know if this came next or if it was your cousin's death, but you said you were hemorrhaging. 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:10.480 The time my mom got sick, I was also having my own medical issues, female issues where I uh was hemorrhaging, come to find out there was a fibroid. 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.960 And so that was just right after my mom passed away. 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.199 I went to get the fibroid removed. 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:26.400 And she's like, hmm, because of course our medical system is so weird, but they can only do the procedure with a certain machine, and they can only use the machine in a certain way. 00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:31.199 And because of the size of the fibroid and the way the machine works, they were only able to get certain so much. 00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.039 So I was gonna have to get another procedure. 00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:34.400 But she got as much as she could. 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:35.760 And I'm like, great. 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:39.119 I had a trip to Europe planned in June. 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:44.320 So she's like, we'll wait until you get back from Europe and then we'll do the other procedure then. 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:49.920 Until then, I want you to take this birth control that will help thin the lining of your uterus. 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:54.000 So when you come back and we do the ablation, it'll be more effective. 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:55.119 Sounds great. 00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:01.360 Also recognizing the reason I have two kids is I could never take hormonal birth control. 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:05.280 It made me either homicidal or suicidal. 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.239 So like it did not work for my system. 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:12.400 And I'm like, hmm, I wonder how it's gonna be taking this birth control. 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:14.239 I only have to do it for a couple months. 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:15.440 I'm much older now. 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:16.639 I'll see how it goes. 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:22.239 So I took the birth control and I'm still having issues. 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.679 It was probably three days before we were leaving to Europe. 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:27.599 It was my daughter's last day of school. 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.119 She was looking for a pair of shorts. 00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:32.320 She had also had an ankle injury, so she was on crutches at the time. 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:39.920 So I ran downstairs to help her find her shorts and proceeded to pass out in the middle of the dining room. 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:42.320 That led to a trip to the hospital. 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.280 They're like, your blood levels are way too low. 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:52.000 That ended to a life flight getting flown to the mainland for emergency blood transfusions. 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:56.559 And they were going to obviously do the ablation then. 00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:02.320 So me, I'm like, I've got a trip to Europe planned in two days. 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:03.840 My doctor, God bless her. 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:07.360 She she was the longest relationship of my life. 00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.360 And she's like, oh my gosh, Debbie. 00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:12.159 She's like, well, I can't tell you you can't go. 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:18.960 And she's like, the only way you're gonna do it is if we can get you in scheduled for the first procedure. 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:22.400 So her

scheduler called me, who I'd known for years also. 00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:24.719 I'm like, all right, Jan, get me in first thing. 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:27.599 I've got a flight to Europe tomorrow night. 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.159 And so sure enough, she was able to get me in first thing. 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:33.519 I had the ablation, I had all this brand new blood on board. 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:34.559 I had so much energy. 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:36.320 I'm like, let's go, we're going to Europe. 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:47.199 So we went to Europe, landed in London, and we were walking down by the river, and there was a big theater poster for a production of the amazing bleeding woman. 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:48.639 No way. 00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:50.800 Oh my what the heck is that? 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:58.239 So I of course took a picture of it and sent it to my my good friend, who was the nurse at the ER here on the island when I got taken up there that day. 00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:04.159 And I sent her, and we were trying to figure out if I couldn't go to Europe, if I could just let give her my trip. 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:06.320 Anyways, so I sent her that poster. 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:07.199 That was pretty funny. 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:12.480 Um, so yeah, the year was full of so many lows and a lot of highs. 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.719 Like, so that was that summer. 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.760 Of course, the ablation didn't end up working either. 00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:23.360 I ended up having to get a hysterectomy a few months later at the end of summer, which also came with the bonus feature. 00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:30.079 I know we were talking about bonus features before we started recording, but that's what I dub all these fun things that happen when you age. 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:31.519 They're my bonus features. 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:35.519 But bonus feature to my hysterectomy is they sliced open my bladder. 00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:45.920 So I ended up going home with this fun catheter for two weeks, which I uh I uh actually got used to. 00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.440 It was kind of handy not having to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:51.280 You're so positive. 00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:53.519 I like to go to concerts. 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.280 I never had to wait in line. 00:40:55.280 --> 00:41:01.920 I literally could go um into the porta potty and use the urinal because I just had a little hose. 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:04.320 Lots of benefits to having a catheter. 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:11.440 But luckily, I got the catheter out right before what happened in October of 2017. 00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:12.639 Festival. 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:13.519 Yes. 00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:17.840 Because I did, I went to other music festivals that summer because I do like concerts. 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.239 Um but the end of summer I was going to one. 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.760 I was supposed to go with friends, most of them decided last minute not to go. 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:28.400 But since I already had tickets, I already had a place to stay, it was in Las Vegas. 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:34.159 Maybe you all know where we're leading to the um country's largest mass shooting. 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.039 In a country that's known for its mass shootings. 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:45.280 I went to Las Vegas in well, it was the end of September for the Route 91 music festival. 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:53.760 I'm gonna ask you to talk about this because it is unimaginable to most people what you experienced. 00:41:53.760 --> 00:42:09.360 And it is unimaginable outside of the United States, I think, to a lot of people, because this type of gun community, or whatever you want to call it, that's happening in the States just does not happen in a lot of other countries. 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:13.440 And, you know, where I'm in Europe, you know, you're not allowed to carry guns like that. 00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:15.679 Makes perfect sense to me. 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:20.880 So do you mind just talking about it a little bit and what happened? 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:31.440 And you don't have to go into any graphic details, but you know, talk about yourself also and and what was going on in your head as this was happening. 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:41.199 No, I recognize too, and ironically the rescheduling, rescheduling as we've now we're a week away from the anniversary. 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:51.760 So knowing what I do about about trauma and anniversary dates, I'm going to proceed with caution because I don't want to get too activated myself. 00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:52.400 Okay. 00:42:52.639 --> 00:43:07.199 I know how to take care of myself, but I also know this close to the anniversary date, revisiting it in too much detail is a a good chance of spinning me in ways that I I don't really want to be spun currently. 00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:07.840 Okay. 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:11.119 Well, just talk about it in ways that you feel comfortable. 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:11.840 Yeah. 00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:13.760 So it was the music festival. 00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:14.239 It was fun. 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:14.880 It was great. 00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:25.599 The highlight of that music festival is I finally got TSA TSA pre-check, which is a way to get through the line at the airport quicker here in the States. 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:29.760 I had always resisted applying for it because you had to go to the airport and have an appointment. 00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:31.840 And I live on an island, that was too much work. 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:34.159 But at the uh festival, they actually had a booth. 00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:36.960 So Friday night of the festival, I went and did that. 00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:40.400 And so it's the the highlight from that weekend. 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:41.840 I mean, there were other highlights too. 00:43:41.840 -->

00:43:42.480 It was a lot of fun. 00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:48.000 I was there with a group of friends because as I said, my closer friends decided not to go. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:51.679 But being from an island, everybody knows everybody. 00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:53.519 So there were other people from the island going. 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:56.400 So I just like, hey, I'm gonna hang out with you guys. 00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:58.239 And so that's what we did. 00:43:58.239 --> 00:43:59.280 It was great. 00:43:59.280 --> 00:43:59.760 It was fun. 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:08.639 Ironically, I realized if I had been there with my other friends, we likely would have gone to the other side. 00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:21.199 So there's the stage and the catwalk, and there is what I would perceive as the person in the audience on the right hand of the stage and the left hand of the stage. 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.559 We were standing on the left hand of the catwalk. 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:28.960 But I probably shouldn't say this on the show either, but I'm going to. 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:39.920 One of the members in our group, we had other friends on the other side of the catwalk, but one of the members from our group was having an affair with one of the people from over there. 00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:42.639 So obviously she couldn't take her husband over to that side. 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:44.960 So it was like, no, we're staying on this side. 00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:47.920 Had I been with my other friends, we would have been on the other side. 00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:53.119 Unfortunately, the other side, what was dubbed the kill zone because that's where the most people were killed. 00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:58.320 And one of our friends from the other group, one of their friends, was actually killed. 00:44:58.320 --> 00:44:59.519 But what is it like? 00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:02.960 We're enjoying our concert, listening to music, dancing. 00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:07.679 At the time, I was in a group of eight couples and me. 00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:09.760 So is the ninth wheel. 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:11.840 But everybody had dispersed. 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:16.719 Like one of the couples had gone up to the rail because they wanted to be close. 00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:22.079 A couple of the other ones went and sat back at this little seating area because it was Sunday night. 00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:22.960 So they were tired. 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:24.000 They wanted to sit down. 00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:28.480 And my friend and her husband, my friend had gone to the bathroom. 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:33.280 So it was, I was hanging with her husband watching the show while she was at the bathroom. 00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:35.440 And we start hearing popping sounds. 00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:38.400 And we both joked about it being fireworks. 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:39.360 Like, who's doing that? 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:40.559 That's not very smart. 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:43.840 And then of course he runs off stage and we're like, that's weird. 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:48.719 And then of course they turn on the lights and we're like, okay, all this over fireworks, it seems a little dramatic. 00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:52.880 And then I see somebody running by and I see the look on their face, and I was like, those aren't fireworks. 00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:58.159 And so we both lay on the ground and I just look at him, I'm like, we got to go find his wife. 00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:00.159 So yeah, we ran to the bathrooms. 00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:07.519 And funny, because when I worked for the company, the island island company, one of my last corporate positions there was safety officer. 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:11.920 So I was already a person who noticed exits and, you know, egress. 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:17.679 And so when we had gone to the bathrooms the first day, I noticed that there was only one way in and out. 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:19.280 And I'm like, well, that's not very safe. 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:20.880 And the opening wasn't that big. 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:22.639 And so I had already had this idea. 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:24.800 I'm like, well, I could just climb over that back fence. 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:28.000 Mind you, I just had a hysterectomy a few weeks before. 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.800 I'd just gotten the catheter removed. 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.320 And so that's where my brain went when we went to the bathrooms. 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:34.880 We couldn't find her. 00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:39.119 I'm like, well, I'm certainly not going back out the entryway because that's where the shooting's happening. 00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:40.559 I'm going to climb over the fence. 00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:44.159 And my friend's husband was like, you are not climbing over that fence. 00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:48.639 And we proceeded to go out the entrance and just walk. 00:46:48.639 --> 00:46:53.840 And the strangest thing that I remember from that moment was the police were coming in, right? 00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:57.920 They had opened the fences, so they were big, gates opened. 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:07.679 And you have the police with all their gear in their cars, and they're like going into the um the fairgrounds or the concert grounds. 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:11.440 And we're just all walking around like nothing. 00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:14.480 We have nothing protecting us, nothing to hide behind. 00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:16.079 It was just so weird. 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:18.000 Then it was just chaos. 00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:22.400 We were busy trying to find his wife, which is where we went. 00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:23.920 We heard from all of our friends. 00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:25.760 I checked in with my kids right away. 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:30.639 Luckily, my son had just gotten off work and he was at his friend's house and they were watching TV, so they saw the news. 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:32.239 So he's like, oh my God,

thanks. 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:35.360 My daughter just thought I had had too much to drink. 00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:39.119 And I was in the I love you, I love you, man, phase of the evening. 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:44.400 Like I was just, you know, espousing my love for her for no reason at all. 00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:48.079 So she didn't know about the shooting until the morning, luckily. 00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:53.840 And people running around screaming all the things you imagine from a shooting. 00:47:53.840 --> 00:48:00.960 Then we spent the next few hours trying to locate his wife, whose phone had died. 00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:06.960 That's why one of my go-to trauma responses is my devices are always charged. 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.239 If somebody is near, it bothers me. 00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:16.480 Also, I don't like to have responsibility for other people's stuff in group experiences like that. 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:21.679 Because, and it's stupid, she left her bag with him and he forgot it. 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.159 They fought about that, I think, for years. 00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:29.199 And I'm like, I don't want responsibilities for anybody's stuff because if I gotta go, I gotta go, and I don't want to hear about it, you know. 00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:32.320 So like, which is not like me because normally I'm like a helper. 00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:36.559 I want to help people, but that's just one thing that really makes me anxious. 00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:41.920 Like at the airport, when you leave your stuff with me, I want to do it because that's a kind, friendly thing to do. 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:56.559 But the internal dialogue that is happening and the, you know, probably bilatical bilateral stimulation, the breathing, the counting my breaths, you know, like all the things I'm doing to regulate, to do something so silly as to watch my friend's luggage at the airport. 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:00.079 And is that since the shooting, or is that before? 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:01.840 No, that wasn't before. 00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.280 That was definitely that's part of how it shows up, right? 00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:08.320 Trauma shows up in weird ways for everybody. 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:09.440 It's everybody's different. 00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.840 How many people died in that incident? 00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.039 I think the count was 58. 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:19.360 I'm I'm certain several since then have taken their own lives. 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:20.400 Really? 00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:21.280 Oh yeah. 00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:28.719 I feel like there were some directly after who took their lives, and I'm sure since then there are more. 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:30.400 I haven't researched that. 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:31.360 It's an assumption. 00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:35.360 I feel like it's a pretty educated guess. 00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:43.280 I do also volunteer for what was called the Las Vegas Resiliency Center. 00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:55.920 It has since they've changed their name to Justice and Resilience in there now because a lot of these resiliency centers pop up after mass violence events, but then they're own they're short-lived. 00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:58.239 They only have funding for a certain period of time. 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:11.119 But because this one was so big, they've managed to hold on to their funding and they're now a permanent organization and they help people not just from Route 91, but from other mass shooting survivors. 00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:21.280 So I work as a uh peer mentor, so I work with other people who have survived mass violence events to help them complement whatever therapy they're they're working on. 00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:25.679 Just I also am a life coach, so it it works well. 00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:32.480 So obviously, yeah, we'll get to that because obviously you're not doing that without having done all the work on yourself first. 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:33.599 Yes, yes. 00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:38.159 I didn't, it wasn't like November of 2017 that I was signing up to do that. 00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:39.360 Certainly not. 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:41.199 All right, thank you for sharing that. 00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:42.639 I know that was a bit difficult. 00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:46.239 All right, so then you had something else happened. 00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.480 Your cousin died as well. 00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:49.039 Yeah. 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:49.440 Yeah. 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:57.599 So after the shooting, I was dealing with my cousin who was my closest family member at the time. 00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:02.239 We talked a lot about my childhood as it was with my mom and her boyfriend. 00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:05.519 The rest of the family was challenging as well. 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:10.239 I never really felt like I fit in until my little cousin came along. 00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:12.159 He was 10 years younger than me. 00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:18.000 But there was a fair amount of trauma happening in the other households of my families, of my cousins and and such. 00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:25.199 And so when he was 12, he called the police on his mom and got himself removed from the home. 00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:29.440 So he was raised in the foster system, which has its own trauma. 00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:37.440 So there was a period when I first had my son that my partner and I were trying to jump through the hoops to bring him to live with us. 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:44.480 But there's just so much red tape and so many things that had to, and our housing, we just couldn't get it to pass. 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:51.679 So when he was 18, as soon as he was aged out, he worked for the boat that brings people back and forth to the island. 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:56.480 He was very connected to the island, and we were in each other's lives. 00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:58.400 And then he eventually moved to the island. 00:51:58.400 -->

00:52:04.800 But because of the life he had experienced, he had developed a very uh strong relationship with alcohol. 00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.760 That was his go-to coping mechanism. 00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:09.039 So he was an alcoholic. 00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:10.239 It was my mom's birthday. 00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:16.159 We'd all gotten together to celebrate my mom, who was kind of our memorial service as a family together. 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:19.760 Um, and he told me that he had cancer. 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:20.960 I was like, what? 00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:26.239 And so, of course, concerned, he had a girlfriend at the time that was supposedly going to doctor's appointment with him. 00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:28.079 And again, somebody else is taking care. 00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:30.159 I'm trying to intercede where I can. 00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:32.800 As the time went on, we realized it wasn't cancer. 00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:34.480 He wasn't dying from cancer. 00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:38.320 He was an alcoholic and he was drinking himself to death. 00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:44.079 The girlfriend moved away, so then I was able to be the emergency contact. 00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:47.440 So I got to understand a little bit better what was going on with him. 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:55.440 And try as we may, he lost his battle with alcohol almost a year to the date of losing my mom. 00:52:55.440 --> 00:53:03.119 So my mom died April 28th of 2017, and he died May 1st, 2018. 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:08.400 So that's why I call it the year of suck, because it was a 12-month container pretty much. 00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:16.000 And the weird thing is I used to get so annoyed with him after the shooting and before he passed, so it was a short period of time. 00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:19.360 But he would tell other people how much the shooting had changed me. 00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:21.360 And I'm like, it hasn't changed me. 00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:25.119 He's just saying that because I'm giving a hard time about his drinking. 00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:32.719 But the reality is, after he passed, I realized, yes, he was just annoyed that I was giving him a hard time about his drinking. 00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:36.239 But he was also right that the shooting has had changed me. 00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:45.440 I don't know how anybody can go through a traumatic experience like that or similar to that and not be impacted and changed in some way. 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:49.679 I believe it is eventually it changed me for the better. 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.719 That post-traumatic growth that people talk about. 00:53:53.199 --> 00:54:03.119 Yeah, because you said that later that you met with a PTSD specialist and learned many normal life experiences are actually traumatic. 00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.880 What you are thinking is normal is actually traumatic. 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.760 Yeah, that happened right after the the shooting. 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:18.800 Our local hospital administrator, who had also been a survivor of an active shooter event, he knew exactly what we were going through because he had gone through it. 00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:20.800 So he right away got us together to talk about it. 00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:22.960 And then he brought a PTSD specialist over. 00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:24.719 That was another thing about the community, right? 00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:26.880 Like we come together, we experienced it together. 00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:28.159 So we were in it together. 00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:32.639 And the PTSD specialist was talking to us about things, the ways we might be feeling. 00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:34.880 And I was like, Yep, check, check, check. 00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:36.960 But I've been feeling this way for about 10 years. 00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:38.480 What's up with that? 00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:38.960 You know? 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:46.880 So recognizing that a lot of the things we experience in our lives, our body processes as trauma. 00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:52.320 And was that a shock to you to realize that you were carrying so much and for so long? 00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:56.559 I don't know if it was a shock, but it was definitely a aha. 00:54:56.559 --> 00:55:00.559 Like, oh yeah, like that feeling of all the pieces kind of fitting together. 00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:02.000 Like that makes a lot of sense. 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:08.000 And eventually, after talking about it with my therapists, like, of course, yes, of course that is trauma. 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:08.639 Yeah. 00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:11.280 That would be traumatic to your system. 00:55:11.679 --> 00:55:15.599 So once you had sort of had that aha moment, what did you do about it? 00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:16.559 Oh, nothing. 00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:18.559 I went carried on with my life. 00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:19.199 I was fine. 00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.159 Everything's fine. 00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:20.719 Okay. 00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:22.480 Not a damn thing. 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:23.840 I had to keep working. 00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:25.039 I had kids to take care of. 00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:26.480 Like I had shit to do. 00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:28.239 The dishes are piling up. 00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:28.800 Yes. 00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:33.199 I had to check all the boxes and do all the things I was supposed to be doing. 00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:42.559 And it wasn't until a couple years later that I realized, yeah, you're not really like all those things you're supposed to be doing, all those boxes you're checking, you are like barely checking them. 00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:44.800 I describe it as a slow stumble. 00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:52.480 Like when you're starting to fall and your feet are your top half is going faster than your bottom half, and you're about ready to do the face plant. 00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:55.519 I hadn't faceplanted yet, but I was very it was getting very close. 00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:07.440 And then you

took medical leave in 2019 because you said a friend gave you almost permission and told you that she's taken leave for things that are even less than what you had experienced. 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:11.199 Yeah, she said, I've taken time off for far less than what you've got going on. 00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:13.280 And I was like, taking time off? 00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:14.400 Wait, what? 00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:15.199 What's that? 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:16.719 What is this you speak of? 00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:23.199 Mind you, I'd worked in HR, so I'd facilitated many leaves of absences for various reasons for lots of people. 00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:25.679 Why had I not given myself permission? 00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:26.559 I don't know. 00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:32.559 But I thank the stars that she said those words to me because then I'm like, yeah, maybe I should do that. 00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:37.039 And so talked to my doctor and I was like, that's not a bad idea. 00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:38.719 And got some time off work. 00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:44.719 And then, of course, that brings up all kinds of stuff when you're not working and you're supposedly working on yourself. 00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:46.320 Lots of time to think. 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:49.519 Well, and like, who am I to take this, take this time? 00:56:49.519 --> 00:57:03.760 And especially in the States, a lot of our worth is tied to being productive members of society, being good employees, being the cogs in the machine that keeps Empire running. 00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:06.159 And so I was like, who am I? 00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:07.280 Like, what am I doing? 00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:09.039 Like, I've got to figure this out. 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:12.079 I was like, let's figure this out because I got to get back to work. 00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:13.440 Come on, Debbie, figure it out. 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:14.559 You got to get back to work. 00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:17.199 That was where I was at the beginning of 2020. 00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:22.480 Mind you, I then went on a very nice vacation to a music festival out of the country. 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:27.119 That's when all the COVID stuff started to hit the fan. 00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:34.400 We were in actually the Dominican Republic, and they had a lot of European travelers there. 00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:36.800 Uh, there was a lot of Italian travelers. 00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:40.719 And remember when it was all first happening, Italy was one of the places that was hit. 00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:45.119 So the Dominican was talking about closing their airport and like starting to do these things. 00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:47.119 And we're like, wait a minute, are we gonna be able to get home? 00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:48.079 Like, what's going on? 00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:48.800 This is weird. 00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:54.880 Because we had been in this little bubble at an all-inclusive resort at this music festival, like not paying any attention to the world. 00:57:54.880 --> 00:58:00.320 Then we went and stayed at a till closer to the airport and we're watching the news and we're like, oh my goodness, what's going on? 00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:04.559 So yeah, it came back to that, and that's a whole nother layer of work. 00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:09.360 But now it's like we all are stuck at home and getting to know ourselves better. 00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:10.800 Ooh, and how does that feel? 00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:12.480 Does that feel comfortable? 00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:15.280 Feel uncomfortable, unsure, like uncertain? 00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:16.559 Hmm, this is strange. 00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:17.360 I don't know. 00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:21.679 I'm scared, I don't like this, all that stuff that was happening. 00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:24.239 But I had had a a couple month runway. 00:58:24.239 --> 00:58:27.360 So I was just starting to feel like, okay, this is okay. 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.719 Like, why can't we live at this pace all the time? 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:34.000 And then when everybody else was freaking out, I'm like, oh, it's okay. 00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:34.960 We could do this. 00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:36.159 It's gonna be all right. 00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:37.039 Just relax. 00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:39.360 You don't have to be doing and going all the time. 00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:40.800 You can be a human being. 00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:41.599 Just be. 00:58:41.599 --> 00:58:42.480 It's okay. 00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:43.920 You stopped working. 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:46.480 I would imagine the whole island must have just shut down. 00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:48.719 We had, you know, frontline employees. 00:58:48.719 --> 00:58:55.679 We had our grocery store, our hospital restaurants that stayed open and did takeout, delivery. 00:58:55.679 --> 00:59:00.079 It was another time where it was really nice to see that community coming together. 00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:11.599 I know we weren't supposed to be out hiking, but I would go out hiking, and it was really cool to see families out enjoying the trails that you know never had the time to do that. 00:59:11.599 --> 00:59:18.000 Because to live here, especially working in the service industry, most people have to work several jobs to just survive. 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:22.480 So here now they have time off, they could actually go for a hike with their kids. 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:25.199 And were your kids on the island at that time? 00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:27.920 Well, yeah, I was a happy mama bear. 00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:29.599 Like both of my kids were home. 00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:32.079 Of course, my daughter was in Iowa but got sent home. 00:59:32.079 --> 00:59:33.199 My son was home. 00:59:33.199 --> 00:59:36.719 His significant other, now wife, lived with us. 00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:41.760 So if their relationship survived the pandemic, living with his mom and they're now married. 00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:48.000 And you said that during that time you

participated in every free coaching program you can find. 00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:48.719 Yes. 00:59:48.719 --> 00:59:50.880 Because I was that lifelong learner. 00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:51.760 I like to learn. 00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:57.199 I loved, if I had gotten my degree, I have no doubt it would have been in psych psychology somehow. 00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:02.880 Because I'm just fascinated by what makes us do what we do, how we become who we are, what makes us tick. 01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:03.920 I'm just fascinated by all that. 01:00:04.239 --> 01:00:06.639 But how did you get turned on to coaching in particular? 01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:12.639 All through 2017, I was listening to a podcast called Don't Keep Your Day Job. 01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:18.960 A little foreshadowing of, but like, so hmm, was I happy in my current job? 01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:20.480 I don't think so. 01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:27.119 So I was listening to that podcast, and so I followed that, the woman who hosted the podcast, a woman named Kathy Heller. 01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:32.480 So I was following her on socials, and so an ad came up for this free thing she was doing. 01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:34.000 I was like, oh, that sounds fun. 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:35.840 Got time, I'll check it out. 01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:45.280 And then, of course, it was a live launch to offer her group coaching program, which was all about creating a creative business online. 01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:53.840 So she had done other coaching cohorts about helping people create creative businesses because that's what her podcast was essentially about. 01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:56.800 Like, so then she did this online version. 01:00:56.800 --> 01:00:58.559 It was called Made to Do This. 01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:14.079 And I'm not saying it was instantaneous or automatic or it did everything for me that I needed it to, but it gave me exactly what I needed to get started down the path that I'm still on today, really, the entrepreneurial path. 01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:29.679 It was also because when I was a kid, somewhere along probably teen years, I'd heard a someone was talking about a study that if your parents are employees, like they work for a corporation, you're whatever exponentially more likely to be an employee. 01:01:29.679 --> 01:01:36.320 And if your parents were entrepreneurs or business owners, you're more likely to follow their path, which makes sense. 01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:38.559 So in my brain, I'm like, oh, my mom was an employee. 01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:39.679 I'm just gonna be an employee. 01:01:39.679 --> 01:01:40.880 I'm always gonna be an employee. 01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:47.599 So I never even contemplated what it would be like to build something for myself until 2020. 01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:51.440 And I was like, yeah, I've done a lot for a lot of other people. 01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:53.519 Why can't I do something for myself? 01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:54.480 That's crazy. 01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:55.679 I don't like that philosophy. 01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:56.960 That kind of boxes you in. 01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:58.559 The study that I heard? 01:01:58.559 --> 01:01:59.119 Yeah. 01:01:59.119 --> 01:01:59.679 Yeah. 01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:05.840 And the fact that I heard it and just took it in as such fact, which isn't like me. 01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:06.960 Yeah, I don't know. 01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:08.480 Sometimes I think about these studies. 01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:15.119 You know, they what proportion of the billions of people on this planet do they actually include in these studies? 01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:24.480 Anyway, I could feel myself getting irritated already at being this idea of all these studies that box people in because of these small findings that they have. 01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:32.000 They don't do them on different cultures, they don't do them on different ethnicities, they don't do them on different countries, whatever. 01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:34.400 Well, yeah, and the other things that play into it. 01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:36.079 Like it could be the privilege of it. 01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:47.840 Like if your parent is a successful business owner, chances are you might be a little more affluent than my mom who's busting her butt or some corporation who's paying her just enough to keep her there, you know? 01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:52.559 And so, yeah, this other person might have more opportunity to explore. 01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:54.639 They also might have a bigger safety net. 01:02:54.639 --> 01:02:58.800 Like I knew if I didn't take care of myself, my mom wasn't gonna be able to take care of me. 01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:00.880 Like I had to take care of myself. 01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:04.480 So, of course, I'm gonna do something that's secure and stable. 01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:08.159 If I take a risk and lose everything, what's gonna happen? 01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:09.280 I'm gonna be on the street. 01:03:09.280 --> 01:03:10.480 I have no safety net. 01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:10.960 Yeah. 01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:18.480 But then COVID sort of gave you the little push and the door opening to consider otherwise, which I think it did for a lot of people, actually. 01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:21.039 Right, because our basic needs were being met, right? 01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:38.159 We were getting a little bit of money to support ourselves, enough to support ourselves, and we had the time and space to like, I say get to know ourselves again because I feel like so much of our lives, especially here in the States, we're like checking the boxes, doing the things on autopilot, especially with social media. 01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:42.000 You're looking around at what everybody else has got, like, oh, I want that too. 01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:45.199 Why are you spending so much just because somebody else has it? 01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:46.880 It's just annoying. 01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:48.960 But it's also our human nature. 01:03:48.960 -->

01:03:50.960 So how do we disrupt that? 01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:59.920 Yeah, I know there were a lot of people who did not handle that time in COVID and they were going stir crazy because people were not used to sitting with themselves. 01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:04.960 And because there were many people who were by themselves as well, they couldn't handle it. 01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:07.599 Well, yeah, and it was depression, I think, that came out of that. 01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:08.559 There definitely was. 01:04:08.559 --> 01:04:13.440 Like, and I recognize that my COVID experience was a lot different than other people's. 01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:18.480 I had a really good, positive COVID experience, and I know there are a lot of people who didn't. 01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:23.360 It was a scary, lonely time, and it was a scary time, and it was traumatic. 01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:24.320 People lost people. 01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:26.159 I was fortunate enough not to lose anybody. 01:04:26.159 --> 01:04:28.960 Of course, I had already lost most of my family. 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:33.280 So yeah, it was definitely a time of contrast. 01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:37.679 A lot of good things were happening and a lot of horrible things were happening. 01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:38.239 Yeah. 01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:44.960 I think that was also part of my getting comfortable with that idea of holding two ideas at the same time. 01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:49.679 Like the fact that my mom did the best she could and it did harm to me. 01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:56.639 There is, especially in time in history we're living in, there is every day something traumatic and scary in the news. 01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:59.519 And also there are beautiful things happening every day. 01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:02.639 You know, like it happened, it's life isn't black and white. 01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:07.519 Black or white, it's black and white, and a million shades of gray, right? 01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:16.559 My husband likes to watch the Belgian news here, one particular channel, because it's the one that has the least amount of horrible things on it. 01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:21.360 I mean, it does tell you what's going on, but it always ends it on like a positive note. 01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:28.639 It always shows like some beautiful part of the country or something fun that's happening, or or something that's uplifting. 01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:31.280 And so that's the reason I asked him once, why do you watch this news? 01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:34.960 You know, why don't you watch the BBC or something or whatever we get over here? 01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:37.199 And he says, no, this is the reason why I like to watch it. 01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:39.119 Yeah, and I think that's important. 01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:45.199 And it's part of my messaging is like making sure that you're taking care of yourself so you can stay informed. 01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:48.079 But that also includes how are you being informed? 01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:52.159 Is it informing you or is it traumatizing you? 01:05:52.639 --> 01:05:53.039 Yeah. 01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:53.679 Okay. 01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:59.840 So COVID happened, and then you actually ended up with no job afterwards. 01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:01.199 Yeah. 01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:04.880 It was challenging, but it was it was a blessing in disguise. 01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:08.559 Like I said at the beginning, I was like, I gotta figure this stuff out so I can get back to work. 01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:14.159 Not recognizing that the situation I was in at work, I was no longer working for the island company. 01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:19.199 I had moved to small business was not a super healthy work environment. 01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:24.159 The reality is I realized I'm just building somebody else's dream. 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:27.119 I'm making somebody else rich with my labor. 01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:32.559 Why don't why don't I try and see if there's something I can do for myself and my family? 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:37.119 And what you just did you decide to do after you stopped working? 01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:37.760 Right. 01:06:37.760 --> 01:06:38.000 Yeah. 01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:42.480 It just it was very, it just faded away, right? 01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:45.199 I was gone on the leave, the pandemic happened. 01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:48.800 I think I text my boss, like, my job's probably gone, right? 01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:49.519 Yep. 01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:51.039 Okay, that's good. 01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:53.679 And I did something I'd never done before. 01:06:53.679 --> 01:06:54.960 I just winged it. 01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:56.639 I was a pretty good planner. 01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:59.519 Like I always had that, you know, five-year plan. 01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:04.400 Not saying it ever went exactly as planned, but I at least had an idea of what I was gonna do. 01:07:04.400 --> 01:07:09.039 I always knew I had been an employee for years, so I knew when my paycheck was showing up. 01:07:09.039 --> 01:07:11.039 So I decided to go out on my own. 01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:13.039 And it was scary but exciting. 01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:15.119 And so that's what I've been doing ever since. 01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:18.800 Is that when you decided to start taking the coaching? 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:26.079 Yeah, and yeah, when I was in that group coaching, you know, I had so many ideas. 01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:33.360 But the beginning, when I first started, I I'm like, I want to start a podcast called New World Normal and talk about this idea of normal. 01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:40.480 At the beginning, I was I wanted to normalize things that I wanted to see normal, or I feel like a majority of us want to see normal. 01:07:40.480 --> 01:07:47.119 But when I really started playing with the word normal, I realized, hmm, it's kind of problematic, right? 01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:52.239 Because when we think of one thing as normal, then this other

thing is not normal or less than. 01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:55.039 And why can't it just be different? 01:07:55.039 --> 01:08:00.239 Like I think about uh neurotypical or neurodivergent. 01:08:00.239 --> 01:08:07.119 A lot of times neurotypical is seen as normal or better, and neurodivergent is is less than. 01:08:07.119 --> 01:08:09.360 And I'm like, it's just different. 01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:17.439 It's not the reason we think that neurotypical is better is because it fits into the system that we've created better. 01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:22.880 But what if it's the system that's less than and not the neurodivergent person, right? 01:08:22.880 --> 01:08:30.560 So that's where I'm at now, just more questioning norms, questioning uh personal norms and systemic norms. 01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:33.840 So, anyways, I had the idea for the podcast in 2020. 01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:34.880 Right. 01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:38.960 But remember, I am someone that is grown up to be seen and not heard. 01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:40.960 So who am I to use my voice? 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:43.840 So that was the idea at the beginning of the program. 01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:55.279 And then through the program, now that I've given myself to be a business owner and an entrepreneur, I came up with all sorts of ideas that I chased during that 12-week period in that course. 01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:56.960 I was like, Yeah, I'll do this and I'll do that. 01:08:56.960 --> 01:08:59.840 And I start setting up this business and then oh no, no, I'm gonna do this. 01:08:59.840 --> 01:09:07.920 And I start setting up this so I wasted a lot of time chasing other business ideas until I got back to the end and I'm like, no, I think I just want to do the podcast. 01:09:07.920 --> 01:09:10.239 So, okay, I'm gonna do a podcast. 01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:11.680 This is terrifying. 01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:12.800 How do I do this? 01:09:12.800 --> 01:09:14.159 Who am I to do this? 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:15.199 Use my voice. 01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:16.479 All the things came up. 01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:17.840 I feel I don't know who 01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:19.920 I can empathize with what you're saying. 01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:21.199 I really can. 01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:26.640 I see some some similarities in my doing this podcast and what you're saying. 01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:35.600 Well, and also they say becoming an entrepreneur is the best therapy you'll ever have because you've got to work through a lot of your shit to put yourself out there. 01:09:35.600 --> 01:09:44.159 The easiest way is to use social media, and so you really have to be present and perceived constantly, which is still uncomfortable for me. 01:09:44.159 --> 01:09:47.359 So, yeah, surprise, surprise, I did not start the podcast right away. 01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:48.800 I started working on it. 01:09:48.800 --> 01:10:00.800 One of the things we did early on in that program was go to the people in our lives that were closest to us that we could trust that would be honest with us and ask them, what do you think I'm good at? 01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:03.439 What are things that you would come to me for? 01:10:03.439 --> 01:10:05.199 So I did that early on. 01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:11.359 And I got things like, you're really good at looking at a problem from all directions. 01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:17.520 I go to you when I need a less biased, I'm like, I can't be non-biased, none of us can. 01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:22.880 So the the things that were my friends were saying very much led to the idea of coaching. 01:10:22.880 --> 01:10:25.520 But again, I'm like, oh, that sounds really scary. 01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:26.399 Who am I to do that? 01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:28.079 So I'm like, of course, I can't do that. 01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:30.560 So I had this idea to go along with the podcast. 01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:33.359 I was going to do a thing called intentional apparel. 01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:40.399 It was soft clothes for hard times, but it was just a clothing line that had like inspirational sayings on it and stuff. 01:10:40.399 --> 01:10:44.319 But that wasn't really what I wanted to do because I didn't want to sell stuff. 01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:48.079 I tend to lean towards eco-friendly and environmental. 01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:50.079 Like there's already enough stuff. 01:10:50.079 --> 01:10:58.159 If I sell stuff, I want to make sure my shirts are produced in a factory where people are being treated kind and being paid fairly. 01:10:58.159 --> 01:11:00.479 So, like starting out, I don't know, that was a lot. 01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:01.840 I couldn't, I couldn't do that. 01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:03.760 So I kept going and going. 01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:11.039 And then it was a the year later in 2021, that's when the Route 91 people reached out. 01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:15.039 They're like looking for volunteers to train to be a peer mentor. 01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:17.119 This is the on-site group? 01:11:17.119 --> 01:11:21.520 No, this was Route 91, the Las Vegas Resiliency Center. 01:11:21.680 --> 01:11:22.399 Yeah, okay, okay. 01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:23.119 So it's a different group. 01:11:23.359 --> 01:11:24.319 They were looking for volunteers. 01:11:24.319 --> 01:11:30.079 And at the same time, I had been researching because I had come to terms with, okay, I'm gonna do this life coaching thing. 01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:36.239 So I had been researching schools or organizations to train with, and I had just finally selected one. 01:11:36.239 --> 01:11:37.680 Oh, what do you know? 01:11:37.680 --> 01:11:41.439 It starts around the same time as this resiliency center training. 01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:54.319 So I'm doing these concurrently, and then also the resiliency center is saying, we have an opportunity for Route 91 survivors to go to On-Site, which is a therapeutic center. 01:11:54.319 --> 01:11:56.000 At the time they were just in Tennessee. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:58.640 Now they have a

campus in California as well. 01:11:58.640 --> 01:12:05.520 But they do lots of different therapeutic programs, but they had one designed specifically for mass shooting survivors. 01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:11.600 I believe it was a relative of one of the Columbine survivors who ended up committing suicide. 01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:20.399 It's not uncommon for people to take the trauma from the shooting, you know, survive the shooting, but then that trauma ends up getting them in the end because they take their own lives. 01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:26.560 So I think it was her brother who inspired her to start this program with On-Site. 01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:29.600 And it was a 100% scholarship. 01:12:29.600 --> 01:12:34.319 And again, those messages of who are you to take up this space? 01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:36.319 Your experience wasn't that bad. 01:12:36.319 --> 01:12:37.680 You didn't get shot. 01:12:37.680 --> 01:12:39.359 None of your friends got shot. 01:12:39.359 --> 01:12:40.159 Who are you? 01:12:40.159 --> 01:12:42.800 Luckily, I'd been in a lot more therapy since then. 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:43.920 So I was like, you know what? 01:12:43.920 --> 01:12:46.720 I'm just gonna fill out the application and see what happens. 01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:48.079 And I was accepted. 01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:54.560 And I got to go spend four days in Tennessee doing group therapy, which I'd never done. 01:12:54.560 --> 01:13:01.039 And it was hands down one of the best experiences, most impactful experiences of my life. 01:13:01.039 --> 01:13:04.000 And it just contributed to the training I was already getting, right? 01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:07.119 I'm in life coaching school and training to be a peer mentor. 01:13:07.119 --> 01:13:20.640 So that period of my life was pretty intense therapeutically and learning about myself and the idea of helping other people and how to do that safely, but also brings up a lot of your stuff. 01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:24.399 So it's not like I'm going to hang my shingle immediately. 01:13:24.399 --> 01:13:27.600 I thought I was, but no, you're not ready. 01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:30.479 You need to process all this stuff you've just gone through. 01:13:30.479 --> 01:13:33.680 Mind you, I did start the podcast around that time. 01:13:33.680 --> 01:13:35.840 So I was putting out podcast episodes. 01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:37.680 So I'd started to get a little braver. 01:13:37.680 --> 01:13:42.640 But then, yeah, I didn't actually start really coaching coaching until 22. 01:13:42.640 --> 01:13:46.159 And then I did my first group coaching program in 23. 01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:49.600 And then life has just been lifing since then. 01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:54.000 And um, I'm anxious to get back to that group program because I think it's pretty cool. 01:13:54.479 --> 01:13:56.880 Go back to the on-site program. 01:13:56.880 --> 01:13:58.640 It was four days in Tennessee. 01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:00.560 You said there were group therapy. 01:14:00.560

--> 01:14:02.479 So, how did you feel during that time? 01:14:02.479 --> 01:14:06.159 And what were some of the key findings that you determined after that? 01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:09.680 I mean, I'm sure that there were some pretty eye-opening things that came out of that. 01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:18.560 Well, yeah, one of the biggest ones is we were all this particular cohort of this program, program was called Triumph Over Tragedy. 01:14:18.560 --> 01:14:20.560 We were all Route 91 survivors. 01:14:20.560 --> 01:14:24.560 So we were all pretty bonded right from the get-go, which was nice. 01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:38.319 The one thing I noticed was that even though we were all there for the same reason, what we were all working on, and I can only speak for my group, and uh, but I think it was true for most of the groups, nobody was working on the trauma of the shooting. 01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:42.159 Everybody was working on all the stuff that they had before the shooting. 01:14:42.159 --> 01:14:56.640 Because when we walked into that festival, we all had our baggage, like the shit we'd been carrying from our childhood, our abusive or questionable relationships, our lived experience, which isn't always rainbows and sunshine, right? 01:14:56.640 --> 01:14:59.119 We all had something that we brought in with us. 01:14:59.119 --> 01:15:04.159 And when we left with the added trauma of the shooting, all that other stuff wasn't gone. 01:15:04.159 --> 01:15:08.880 It was still there, which is a little bit what I experienced when I met with the PTSD specialist, right? 01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:12.560 I I got that there's other stuff in my life that I obviously need to deal with. 01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:16.800 So it was interesting seeing that everybody was working on their own stuff. 01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:18.960 It wasn't it wasn't about the shooting at all. 01:15:18.960 --> 01:15:23.279 We talked in group one time about the shooting, maybe about a half hour. 01:15:23.279 --> 01:15:25.920 And then the rest we were we were processing other stuff. 01:15:26.319 --> 01:15:26.960 That's interesting. 01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:34.079 I mean, I can think to my own experience when I in my early 20s, I went to a psychologist, and I won't get into the details of why I did that. 01:15:34.079 --> 01:15:38.800 But I went into it thinking, okay, this is the reason that I'm going in here. 01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:49.520 And then I remember I was, I don't know, it was maybe three months later coming out and thinking, whoa, I didn't realize that I had all this stuff going on with my mother. 01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:51.279 And that's what came out of it. 01:15:51.279 --> 01:15:55.439 I the reason I went in there had absolutely nothing to do with my mother. 01:15:55.439 --> 01:16:00.960 But the main realization that I came out with was some of the things that my mother was doing. 01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:02.720 And she wasn't a bad person or anything. 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:05.039 She was doing it, you know, unwittingly. 01:16:05.039 --> 01:16:07.840 And it was causing so much grief in my life. 01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:12.399 So it's we think it's one thing, then come to find out it's it's something else. 01:16:12.399 --> 01:16:18.880 But it's one small like tangent that pokes another place and makes it sensitive. 01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:27.439 It's really interesting how all these things are so intricately woven in our lives and how they affect each other without us even realizing it. 01:16:27.439 --> 01:16:29.359 It's always amazing to find that. 01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:35.680 And how that emotional is also affecting the physical, like it's all so intricate and complex. 01:16:36.079 --> 01:16:45.600 Yeah, I was uh I did a recording recently with somebody who um she had grown up in at a time when the Czech Republic was becoming the Czech Republic. 01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:52.880 And um, of course, she had been through all that kind of unrest and there was a lot of stuff going on, unrest in the country. 01:16:52.880 --> 01:16:56.960 And she said when September 11th happened, it brought up all this other trauma in her. 01:16:56.960 --> 01:17:10.960 And oh my god, I had to stop the recording because I was living in Reston, Virginia, which is not far from DC when September 11th happened, and it brought up that without me even realizing it. 01:17:10.960 --> 01:17:12.560 And it's all these years later. 01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:16.560 I mean, and I always say, oh, you know, oh, there's a plane flying over low. 01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:24.479 And I realized at that point that I still, when a plane flies low over me, I sit and I think, why is that plane so low? 01:17:24.479 --> 01:17:25.600 What what's going on? 01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:28.000 Years and years ago, I was really surprised. 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:31.760 I mean, I was literally crying - I had to stop the podcast. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:33.439 Yeah, no, it's in there. 01:17:33.439 --> 01:17:34.159 It's in there. 01:17:34.159 --> 01:17:38.239 Like I had the experience the other day because I recognized we were getting close. 01:17:38.239 --> 01:17:41.600 At the time I didn't recognize, I wasn't thinking about the anniversary date. 01:17:41.600 --> 01:17:43.199 But there were um sirens. 01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:51.279 And I'm usually okay with sirens if they go one way, but when they start doing the back and forth, because that's what I heard that night, was the back and the forth, and the helicopters. 01:17:51.279 --> 01:17:57.600 So if you get a helicopter and a siren, and I will start to feel myself, you know, start to rise up. 01:17:57.600 --> 01:18:03.760 I had that experience at work the other day because the ambulances were going back and forth because it was a busy day and it was I live on I work on a busy corner. 01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:08.000 So yeah, it's in there and it comes out whether we're ready for it or not. 01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:22.239 And that's why when you said, you

know, you wanted to be careful about when you what what you were talking about what happened in in the shooting, that I was very conscious of that because I was very conscious of what came up in myself at that time when somebody else was talking about something. 01:18:22.239 --> 01:18:23.039 All right. 01:18:23.039 --> 01:18:27.920 Let's go into the fact that you continue to have some health issues. 01:18:27.920 --> 01:18:36.159 You had a torn retina, and that you've had some issues with your eyes all the way up until the time we were supposed to do the first podcast, the originally scheduled podcast. 01:18:36.479 --> 01:18:42.159 My eyes have just been an issue this year, but I did um I started having issues, autoimmune issues. 01:18:42.159 --> 01:18:44.720 I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's in 2021. 01:18:44.720 --> 01:18:50.720 Finally, because I was having all these weird symptoms, and of course the doctor's like, you're fine, everything's fine, all of your labs look great. 01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:52.720 I'm like, no, there is something wrong. 01:18:52.720 --> 01:18:54.720 And that's thyroid, right? 01:18:54.720 --> 01:18:59.840 Yes, it can be, but because my thyroid was functioning fine, right? 01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:04.880 My panels were fine, I pushed her to test me for Hashimoto's because I had had a functional doctor. 01:19:04.880 --> 01:19:12.960 Because when I first went out on medical leave, I was curious, like, is there something physically wrong with me, or am I just, you know, is it just mental and emotional? 01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:19.039 And so I went to this functional medicine doctor and she's like, Well, you're borderline Hashimoto's, which I don't know how you can be borderline. 01:19:19.039 --> 01:19:20.720 I didn't know enough about it at the time. 01:19:20.720 --> 01:19:25.439 I was having weird joint pain issues, and I'm like, Can you just test me for Hashimoto's? 01:19:25.439 --> 01:19:27.920 And she's like, You don't have Hashimoto's, but okay, I'll test you. 01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:34.800 She humored me, thank goodness, because I did have the antibody, the TPO is the marker for that. 01:19:34.800 --> 01:19:36.880 But my thyroid was functioning. 01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:42.960 So her message to me was, well, your thyroid's working fine, and there's really nothing we can do until that stops working right. 01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:48.640 So it was basically go home and get sicker, and then when your thyroid stops working, we'll medicate you. 01:19:48.640 --> 01:19:51.840 And I'm like, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna do that. 01:19:51.840 --> 01:19:53.279 I'm gonna figure something else out. 01:19:53.279 --> 01:19:59.840 So that was another rabbit hole of, you know, in my son's diagnosis, I was all into neurology and nutrition. 01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:04.560 And then, of course, autoimmune, there's a lot of overlap with lifestyle and nutrition. 01:20:04.560 --> 01:20:08.560 So I put myself on a strict anti-inflammatory diet. 01:20:08.560 --> 01:20:14.960 I was trying to walk, I was learning how to regulate my nervous system, which went along with all the other work I was doing. 01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:20.479 And so I still have Hashimoto's, but all my symptoms are gone for now. 01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:22.560 Good, excellent. 01:20:22.560 --> 01:20:23.119 Good job. 01:20:23.279 --> 01:20:24.159 Yes, yay. 01:20:24.399 --> 01:20:24.800 All right. 01:20:24.800 --> 01:20:26.239 Are you now coaching? 01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:27.520 I do coach. 01:20:27.520 --> 01:20:32.239 I have a few people in my membership that I've been working with for years. 01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:36.640 But what happened in 2023, I'd been working on this group coaching program. 01:20:36.640 --> 01:20:38.960 I really like the idea of a group coaching program. 01:20:38.960 --> 01:20:42.880 Number one, you're doing work in community, which I feel is very important. 01:20:42.880 --> 01:20:46.319 Number two, you can do it in a way that's more accessible. 01:20:46.319 --> 01:20:50.880 Like all those years, I didn't have access to coaching or therapy because I didn't have the money. 01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:55.279 And I know that currently economic times are tough for a lot of people. 01:20:55.279 --> 01:21:00.159 And I would like to be able to work in a way that supports me, but also keeps my work accessible. 01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:02.079 So I really want to do group coaching. 01:21:02.079 --> 01:21:04.079 So I did, I created a program. 01:21:04.079 --> 01:21:07.039 I ran it in fall of 2023. 01:21:07.039 --> 01:21:07.840 It was great. 01:21:07.840 --> 01:21:10.319 The people that went through it got had a good experience. 01:21:10.319 --> 01:21:11.680 I learned a lot. 01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:18.720 I had all these plans for how I was going to improve it and relaunch it in early 2024. 01:21:18.720 --> 01:21:21.600 Well, life had other plans for me in 2024. 01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:26.560 I got an eviction notice from my landlord. 01:21:26.560 --> 01:21:31.600 In itself, doesn't sound like, yes, that is horrible but manageable, right? 01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:32.560 I just have to move. 01:21:32.560 --> 01:21:39.279 Well, mind you, I don't really have a reliable income source that I can put on paper for a future landlord. 01:21:39.279 --> 01:21:44.479 And I live in a resort town where there are next to none year-round housing. 01:21:44.479 --> 01:21:50.800 So it took me six months to find a place and then another six months to probably settle in and process. 01:21:50.800 --> 01:21:52.720 So 2024 was a wash. 01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:55.039 2025, that's the year. 01:21:55.039 --> 01:21:55.920 I'm gonna do it. 01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:57.600 And you lost your dog as well. 01:21:57.600 --> 01:21:58.159 Yes. 01:21:58.159 --> 01:22:03.760 Then 2025 ended up having to say goodbye to my dog, which was much harder. 01:22:03.760 --> 01:22:05.840 Now you're gonna make me to cry. 01:22:05.840 --> 01:22:08.159 That was one of the

hardest things I've ever had to do. 01:22:08.159 --> 01:22:14.800 I had that happen, and then literally four days later, I say I broke my eye from all the crying. 01:22:14.800 --> 01:22:18.000 I ended up losing vision in my left eye, went to the hospital. 01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:19.039 They're like, we can't tell. 01:22:19.039 --> 01:22:20.239 They flew me over town. 01:22:20.239 --> 01:22:25.920 And he's like, Yeah, it's torn and your retina's torn in a few places, but we'll just treat it with laser and you'll be fine. 01:22:25.920 --> 01:22:27.119 Or you should be fine. 01:22:27.119 --> 01:22:28.720 Well, that was torture. 01:22:28.720 --> 01:22:30.800 Laser in the eyeball was not fun. 01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:32.319 They thought they fixed it. 01:22:32.319 --> 01:22:33.760 I it didn't fix. 01:22:33.760 --> 01:22:39.439 So it started at the beginning of June and just it was mid-August that it finally detached. 01:22:39.439 --> 01:22:42.000 So I had to get emergency eye surgery. 01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:49.920 And I am what, nine weeks post eight weeks post-surgery right now, and still have a gas bubble in my eye. 01:22:49.920 --> 01:22:53.920 Needless to say, I had been focused on myself and healing this year. 01:22:53.920 --> 01:22:56.319 So I did not do any group coaching program. 01:22:56.319 --> 01:23:00.319 And I actually just came to the realization, because I kept thinking, I'll just do it in the fall. 01:23:00.319 --> 01:23:01.199 I'll just do it in the fall. 01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:05.680 I'm like, Debbie, you don't have the bandwidth to lead a group right now. 01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:08.079 At least not at the level I want to do it. 01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:09.840 And I'm like, but I've got to do something. 01:23:09.840 --> 01:23:16.800 Like I've got, not just for myself financially, but I feel like we're at a pretty crazy time in history. 01:23:16.800 --> 01:23:25.840 And I feel like one way I can show up and help is through my work, helping people learn how to reconnect to themselves, learn how to regulate their nervous system. 01:23:25.840 --> 01:23:27.840 Because the world is batshit crazy. 01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:38.000 I'm gonna do a mini like boot camp program called Resilience in a bat shit crazy world to try and help people learn how they can take care of themselves and remain engaged and informed. 01:23:38.239 --> 01:23:40.000 And that's in person or online? 01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:41.199 It'll be online. 01:23:41.199 --> 01:23:48.720 And I want to do it in a boot camp format because I didn't want to do a long drawn-out thing because I think people need the information like now. 01:23:48.720 --> 01:23:51.199 I think it needs to be learned quickly. 01:23:51.199 --> 01:23:56.479 And so what's a format I can deliver quickly and effectively and impactfully? 01:23:56.479 --> 01:24:00.560 I wanted to help people, not just doing this to make a few bucks. 01:24:00.560 --> 01:24:06.000 So I've come up with a pretty cool bootcamp format that I'm

hopeful hoping other people like. 01:24:06.000 --> 01:24:07.199 I'm pretty excited about it. 01:24:07.199 --> 01:24:10.399 And then I'll be more in a better mind, right? 01:24:10.399 --> 01:24:15.359 Because I'll be working on my own resilience alongside of all my clients for the rest of the year. 01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:18.880 And then next year I'm gonna relaunch my group coaching program. 01:24:19.359 --> 01:24:20.880 So you don't do one-on-one? 01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:22.000 You don't take individuals. 01:24:22.399 --> 01:24:29.359 I will, but I haven't because how much I'd have to charge somebody, like I'm not comfortable in that space right now. 01:24:29.359 --> 01:24:32.960 And I haven't had the energy to market myself in that way. 01:24:32.960 --> 01:24:38.000 I have it up on my website if someone were to click it, but you know, I'm not sending anybody there. 01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:40.319 I'm sending more people to my free community. 01:24:40.319 --> 01:24:49.119 Like I'm doing a lot of free stuff right now because I feel like people need places to connect and recognize that there's a lot of good people in the world that want to do good things. 01:24:49.119 --> 01:24:58.239 And I'm getting started on my podcast again, because I think that's a lot of it too, like hearing other people's stories about how they're doing work to try and help the collective. 01:24:58.239 --> 01:25:01.119 And yeah, we do a book club, which is all online. 01:25:01.119 --> 01:25:03.840 I want to get back to hosting other people. 01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:14.159 Like I'll do workshops in my free community, but also I host other people, whether it's something about personal development or some creative outlet or self-awareness building. 01:25:14.159 --> 01:25:17.680 I always say it's like self-help at the intersection of social issues. 01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:19.199 It sounds interesting. 01:25:19.199 --> 01:25:22.239 It sounds very collaborative as well. 01:25:22.640 --> 01:25:25.520 Well, and I think a lot of it is taken separately. 01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:29.039 Like you need to work on yourself, but you can do all the work on yourself. 01:25:29.039 --> 01:25:33.600 But if the system you're living in is broken, it's not going to be super effective. 01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:42.800 If somebody were to contact you and be in one of these groups, what is the kind of coaching that somebody would be looking for in this type of group setting? 01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:45.840 What is it that you're offering exactly the type of coaching? 01:25:46.399 --> 01:25:54.960 My coaching and my my program and where I like to help people is questioning all those norms in their life, all the shoulds and the have-to's. 01:25:54.960 --> 01:26:06.399 I'm really big on helping people align goals with their actual values because I find a lot of times people have these ideas of what kind of life they want to live or what kind of world they want to live in. 01:26:06.399 --> 01:26:13.439 But the things

they're doing every day are completely disconnected from those doing this every day, but you want to go that way. 01:26:13.439 --> 01:26:17.439 Like maybe if we try and do things that kind of point more that direction. 01:26:17.439 --> 01:26:30.079 Or you have people that have ideas of wanting to live in a greener, more eco-friendly world, and yet they're doing things on autopilot, like grabbing the case of water bottles at the grocery store every week. 01:26:30.079 --> 01:26:36.000 It's like, well, why are you buying all that plastic and putting more plastic in the world if you claim to care about the environment? 01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:39.520 Decide, do you care about the environment or really is that just not that important to you? 01:26:39.840 --> 01:26:40.960 It sounds very practical. 01:26:41.279 --> 01:26:45.600 I'd like to keep it practical, accessible, things you can actually implement in your life. 01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:53.119 I'm really big on self-care practices or rituals that are as small as possible so that you could actually do them. 01:26:53.439 --> 01:26:57.520 Can you share something like that that somebody who's listening might be able to try out? 01:26:57.840 --> 01:27:04.560 Yeah, it's funny because I had thought about sharing another thing, but I feel like the small bite size, they're like little mini meditations. 01:27:04.560 --> 01:27:08.159 And I want to say I first got introduced to these ideas. 01:27:08.159 --> 01:27:09.600 Gosh, what is the name of the book? 01:27:09.600 --> 01:27:13.680 Something (Positive) intelligence, not emotional intelligence, practical intelligence. 01:27:13.680 --> 01:27:16.319 I think the author's name is Shirzad (Shirzad Chamine) something. 01:27:16.319 --> 01:27:19.840 He has these little mini meditations that are based on the senses. 01:27:19.840 --> 01:27:25.439 And so you can do it anywhere just to bring you back to center and uh a little more grounded. 01:27:25.439 --> 01:27:30.800 So, like you can do it where you're rubbing your fingers and you're just focusing on that sensation. 01:27:30.800 --> 01:27:32.960 So you can literally do that anywhere. 01:27:32.960 --> 01:27:39.600 I often couple it with the bilateral stimulation because right when you're moving bilaterally, people do like this. 01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:42.640 That's a very calming thing to do, but it's also it looks strange, right? 01:27:42.640 --> 01:27:44.159 You're out in public doing this. 01:27:44.159 --> 01:27:48.079 But if you're rubbing your legs at a meeting on Zoom, you can rub your legs. 01:27:48.079 --> 01:27:53.039 You can rub the seam of your pants and focus on that sensation. 01:27:53.039 --> 01:28:00.640 He teaches it as a form of when you're in the negative self talk spiral to bring you back to like, okay, that's Not helpful. 01:28:00.640 --> 01:28:03.119 Let's get back to what I really need to be focused on. 01:28:03.119 --> 01:28:08.720 Another one he talks, so hearing would be, okay, I'm going to listen

to something really close to me. 01:28:08.720 --> 01:28:12.239 I have ear earbuds in right now, so obviously I'm listening to you. 01:28:12.239 --> 01:28:18.800 But if I didn't have them in, I can listen to you, and then I can be like, I'm going to focus on the most distant sound I can hear. 01:28:18.800 --> 01:28:20.239 It's easier when you're outdoors, right? 01:28:20.239 --> 01:28:27.199 Because you can hear something far away, or like you can isolate a sound, like, oh, I can hear that one bird in that tree and focus on that sound. 01:28:27.199 --> 01:28:31.279 You can do the same thing with distance, which is a good uh eye exercise, right? 01:28:31.279 --> 01:28:32.560 I'm looking at the computer. 01:28:32.560 --> 01:28:34.560 I'm looking at something far away. 01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:41.119 But it's just ways to bring you back to the present moment and regulate if you're feeling a little anxious. 01:28:41.119 --> 01:28:45.520 And it's really in easy to incorporate into anything you're doing. 01:28:45.520 --> 01:28:48.079 Like so many people here are like, I don't have time to meditate. 01:28:48.079 --> 01:28:49.439 What do you mean meditate? 01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:50.640 I don't have time for that. 01:28:50.640 --> 01:28:52.800 But you do have time for some a practice like that. 01:28:52.800 --> 01:28:53.840 Like you can do it anytime. 01:28:53.840 --> 01:28:56.239 You can do it while you're standing in line at the grocery store. 01:28:56.239 --> 01:28:59.600 You can, you know, do it at a work meeting. 01:28:59.600 --> 01:29:00.880 No one's gonna know. 01:29:01.439 --> 01:29:06.800 That's mainly to sort of help calm you down if you're in a moment of anxiety or stress. 01:29:07.199 --> 01:29:16.239 I think anxiety and stress, like I said, he teaches it for the the negative mental self-talk, which I know I struggled with, still struggle with. 01:29:16.239 --> 01:29:17.920 So I use it at times like that. 01:29:17.920 --> 01:29:23.760 Anytime you feel like you're anxious, spiraling is a another way people dis describe it. 01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:25.840 Although I think spiraling gets bad rap. 01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:28.960 Like I think we are all spiraling all the time, and that's okay. 01:29:28.960 --> 01:29:30.239 Life is cyclical. 01:29:30.239 --> 01:29:35.039 We're all spinning, but we're expanding and we're growing in that spiral. 01:29:35.199 --> 01:29:36.640 So all right. 01:29:36.640 --> 01:29:47.680 So given everything that's happened to you and everything that you've discovered about yourself, all of these realizations that you have had, and also the coaching that you've gone through, gone through, excuse me. 01:29:47.680 --> 01:30:00.880 Can you just leave listeners with some advice that you feel is probably the most pertinent in this crazy world, as you call it, that we are in all experiencing now? 01:30:01.279 --> 01:30:03.840 Well, it uh you always pops up when people want advice. 01:30:03.840 --> 01:30:07.760 It's like my favorite

advice is from Dory on finding Nemo. 01:30:07.760 --> 01:30:09.439 Just keep swimming. 01:30:09.439 --> 01:30:15.439 But I would also offer because we are seem to be in a I don't know if it's unique. 01:30:15.439 --> 01:30:18.399 People say these kind of things happen all the time throughout history. 01:30:18.399 --> 01:30:25.680 It just feels extra, is to figure out how to take care of yourself so you can stay in the game. 01:30:25.680 --> 01:30:29.119 I'm not the coach that's going to tell you, just ignore the news. 01:30:29.119 --> 01:30:30.479 It's too stressful. 01:30:30.479 --> 01:30:44.079 I'm going to say, yes, take breaks, find sources that don't traumatize you, but also learn how to take care of yourself so you can stay informed and engaged because we're all in this together, right? 01:30:44.079 --> 01:30:45.119 The entire planet. 01:30:45.119 --> 01:30:48.960 We all need to stay in it in order to build something better. 01:30:49.039 --> 01:30:51.760 So Yeah, escapeeism isn't working. 01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:56.960 No, we can't all fly off to a tropical destination because then the problem's just gonna come with us. 01:30:57.359 --> 01:31:00.640 If anybody wants to connect with you, how can they do that? 01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:11.439 So I've been hanging out on Instagram a little bit more, actually spruced up my LinkedIn profile, been trying to show up there more because it seems like there's more real people on LinkedIn. 01:31:11.439 --> 01:31:17.199 And then my podcast new episodes are gonna start, but there's 45 previous episodes. 01:31:17.199 --> 01:31:21.199 People can start listening to those and get an idea of what I'm up to. 01:31:21.199 --> 01:31:24.640 Yeah, or join my community, the free community on Facebook. 01:31:24.640 --> 01:31:26.079 It's on Facebook for now. 01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:28.079 It will find a better home at some point. 01:31:28.079 --> 01:31:30.880 We're getting ready to start up our book club again. 01:31:31.199 --> 01:31:33.199 So, what is the name of the group on Facebook? 01:31:33.439 --> 01:31:35.760 It's the question normal community. 01:31:36.079 --> 01:31:37.199 And the name of your podcast. 01:31:37.439 --> 01:31:38.479 New World Normal. 01:31:38.720 --> 01:31:39.039 Okay. 01:31:39.039 --> 01:31:44.319 So I will put the links in the show notes here so people can connect with you. 01:31:44.640 --> 01:31:47.520 So any final closing words that you have? 01:31:47.920 --> 01:31:48.960 No, this was great. 01:31:48.960 --> 01:31:52.079 I probably shared more than I have on any other podcast. 01:31:52.079 --> 01:31:53.680 So it feels a little uncomfortable. 01:31:53.680 --> 01:31:56.000 It might be a little sweaty, but it was fun. 01:31:56.399 --> 01:31:58.079 You've been rubbing your thighs the whole time. 01:31:58.720 --> 01:32:02.399 Anything comes up, I have my therapy appointment next week, so we're good. 01:32:02.720 --> 01:32:03.199 All right. 01:32:03.199 --> 01:32:07.039 Well, it's been fun and it's been interesting. 01:32:07.039 --> 01:32:12.000 And thank you for sharing some things that I'm sure were a bit difficult to share as well. 01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:13.439 So thank you for that. 01:32:13.840 --> 01:32:15.119 Thanks for what you do. 01:32:15.119 --> 01:32:17.760 I love the idea of Wisdom Without The Guru. 01:32:17.760 --> 01:32:19.359 Because we all have wisdom. 01:32:19.359 --> 01:32:20.000 We all. 01:32:20.319 --> 01:32:23.520 Yeah, that's how I really, really feel that we all have it. 01:32:23.520 --> 01:32:35.520 And I'll just share one thing before we close that there's this old idea of bartering, you know, or you sort of, you know, you provide a meal for somebody and then they provide a service for you. 01:32:35.520 --> 01:32:43.760 And I always sort of try to encourage that with people because it's this type of sharing that you can give to people. 01:32:43.760 --> 01:32:46.239 And people always think, oh, well, I have nothing to share. 01:32:46.239 --> 01:32:47.359 I have nothing to share. 01:32:47.359 --> 01:32:59.199 And I think, well, you've got your own inner inner wisdom from your own experience to share, whether or not somebody else, you know, accepts it or not, or is resonating with it doesn't matter. 01:32:59.199 --> 01:33:01.279 But everybody has that. 01:33:01.279 --> 01:33:04.159 I mean, even a five-year-old has that. 01:33:04.720 --> 01:33:08.720 They've got some kind of wisdom, lived up to that five years of age. 01:33:08.720 --> 01:33:16.319 Well, and the important part about sharing the stories is we recognize, like, oh, like that happened to me, or I felt like that once upon a time. 01:33:16.319 --> 01:33:24.720 Or, you know, we we recognize each other in other people's stories, and that brings us together and helps us remember that we're all in this together. 01:33:25.119 --> 01:33:25.760 Definitely. 01:33:25.760 --> 01:33:26.479 Definitely. 01:33:26.479 --> 01:33:28.239 Well, thank you for being a guest. 01:33:28.239 --> 01:33:38.159 I'm not sure what you're doing for the anniversary of the shooting, but I hope that you will keep yourself in a good state of mind. 01:33:38.560 --> 01:33:39.600 I will do my best. 01:33:39.600 --> 01:33:41.520 I'll have something planned to. 01:33:42.159 --> 01:33:42.640 All right. 01:33:42.640 --> 01:33:45.600 Listeners, thank you for tuning in. 01:33:45.600 --> 01:33:51.279 And I know it's been a lengthy one, but I think that you have probably picked up on a lot of things. 01:33:51.279 --> 01:33:55.439 But I think that'll be it for now because it's time for my dinner 01:33:55.439 --> 01:33:56.239 and my breakfast. 01:33:56.479 --> 01:33:57.600 Oh, yeah, that's right. 01:33:57.600 --> 01:33:59.199 Totally different sides of the world. 01:33:59.199 --> 01:34:07.039 Anyway, so wherever you are in this beautiful world, I wish you a wonderful day, night, midday, whatever it is for you. 01:34:07.039 --> 01:34:09.439 And until the next time, bye, everybody.