התמלול המלא של Episode 158 - How Much Do the Merits Matter in Mock Trial?

--> 00:01:40.079 Oh, other than Mike, yes. 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:44.879 Well, I got to speak to many UT law students about plaintiff's practice, which was wonderful. 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:49.280 Then we did a happy hour and chatted with a couple dozen folks about their past the plaintiff's side. 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:54.159 Um, you know, for people who are interested, they could find a whole podcast called Cause of Action on this very topic. 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:54.879 Nice. 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:57.760 Uh did he take you somewhere uh delicious? 00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:58.319 He did. 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:01.840 We went to um uh uh style switch, switch. 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:02.719 I'll look it up. 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:03.040 Let's see. 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:03.680 Style switch? 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:06.079 I think it's something switch, style switch, Austin. 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:07.040 Yeah, you're right. 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:07.760 I got it right. 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.960 Style switch boy with an I, S-T-I-L-E S. 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:12.560 It was excellent barbecue. 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:13.520 I loved it. 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:17.599 Um and uh, you know, the ambiance was just right. 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:18.080 Great. 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:19.599 And then in New York, what were you doing there? 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:23.759 I gotta say, speaking of ambiance though, uh we went to a bar afterwards called La Laws. 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:28.080 I don't know if anybody's been to La Laws in Austin, but it is a Christmas themed bar. 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.919 And it's not like a, I shouldn't theme kind of makes it sound like it's just like here and there. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.039 It's it is a Christmas world, no matter the time of the year. 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.159 And just like you have like Irish pubs that have like the countdown to St. 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:42.960 Patrick's Day up there, you know, like a screen or like a number counting down, timer, that's what they have for Christmas. 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:44.080 So there's a countdown to Christmas. 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:46.639 So I don't know, there must be a big party Christmas Eve at La La's. 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:48.240 I didn't get that far, but uh, it was great. 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:50.240 I wonder if they're less busy on Christmas. 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:51.039 I know. 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:53.120 I don't know. 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:54.639 I'm I you know I'm not sure. 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:56.639 Or or at least it's a different crowd. 00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:57.759 Yeah, you would think. 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.159 Um, did you know that Mike is a a a magnate in Austin? 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:07.599 Uh, and that he uh is in the ownership of many uh establishments that serve adult beverages. 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:08.159 Did you know that? 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:08.479 No. 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.080 How how many are how many are we talking

about? 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:12.319 Like eight, eight, ten or something? 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:14.639 Okay, good, because many is defined as eight or more. 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:15.759 Okay, well then I'll come. 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:18.719 I'm glad I'm not violating the uh numerical beliefs there. 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:19.520 I'm glad too. 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:20.560 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:21.680 Um, yeah. 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:27.520 Also, I will say it's pretty fun to be on UT's campus uh because students love Mike there, you know. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:28.879 And and he didn't pay me to say this. 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:29.520 He offered to. 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:30.639 No, he didn't. 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:35.759 But like you just like everybody knows Mike Golden, you know, and he in fact walked by at one point and I'd like, hey, that's Mike. 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:36.159 You know Mike? 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:37.120 I'm like, yeah, of course I know Mike. 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:38.000 I'm having dinner with him. 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:41.360 But uh it's pretty cool to see somebody in their space uh being a celebrity. 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:42.080 So it's fun. 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:42.879 That's very cool. 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:44.000 And then in New York? 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.759 New York, well, we took uh Penny, friend of the pod, my mom. 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:52.879 Uh we'd uh you know made a uh a birthday gift to her about a year ago. 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.960 Um it's her birthday's coming up yet again. 00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:56.400 Um, that we were gonna take her. 00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:00.639 Me and my brother and sister, friends of the pod, uh, we're gonna take her to um New York for the weekend. 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:01.199 And we did. 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:01.680 It was fun. 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:06.000 Uh you told me you had a uh a recording studio as part of this trip. 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.560 Yes, tell tell us about it because I think this is super fun. 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:11.120 Yeah, and I so I'll tell you what I did and then I'll give a recommendation. 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:23.839 So, you know, lately I've been doing a lot of interviews for you know podcasting purposes in studios, which are actually not very expensive and are really like really cool places to just record stuff, record conversations that are meaningful to you. 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:25.759 And many of them we share here. 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.959 Um, but I got to thinking, well, why not uh why not do that with my mom? 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:34.639 And so we interviewed my mom at a recording studio um in downtown uh in Manhattan. 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:44.879 And it was so cool to get to just talk to her about, you know, her past and you know, where she's how she became the person she is, and hopefully get some insights into how we became the people we are. 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:49.759 And you know, that's just like our recording for our own sake, but it's not expensive, and I think it was really meaningful. 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:54.879 I would highly recommend that folks out there just interview somebody and you can do it cheaply in a podcast studio. 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:55.839 So it was fun. 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:57.199 That's really, really sweet. 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:01.199 And I hope that this is the first recording of yours that she listens to. 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.199 Well, no promise. 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:05.040 We gotta do that with Anita. 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:05.519 That'd be fun. 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:06.079 You should do that. 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:06.720 You should do that. 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:07.600 Thank thanks a lot. 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:11.439 Just Anita's just planting, Justin that he's going to do this. 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:11.839 Thank you. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:14.000 Well, my mom has a big birthday coming up this year. 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:15.759 Well, the timing is perfect then. 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:17.360 Guess which one it is, Spencer? 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:18.639 Um, let's see. 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:19.519 45. 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:21.360 I think we're both turning 45 this year, right? 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.079 Uh the math doesn't work out very well, doesn't it? 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:24.480 Yeah. 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:25.600 Well, what's the right answer then? 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:26.000 I don't know. 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.000 Uh it's her second 40th birthday. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:28.480 Wow. 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:28.959 Wow. 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:30.000 That's a good way to put it. 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:30.399 I like it. 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:31.279 Yeah, I like it. 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:32.560 Yeah, we're excited. 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:34.480 Uh well, I'm glad you're back. 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:35.839 Yeah, me too. 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:37.439 Um, what are you up to? 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:38.319 What do you got going on? 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.040 Uh, you know, teaching, coaching, eating. 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:42.480 Which which order? 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:44.000 Uh, sometimes at the same time. 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:44.879 Okay, okay. 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:45.519 That's good. 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:46.240 Yeah. 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:47.920 Um, like I hate it. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.120 I hate it when a student asks a question. 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:50.959 I'm like, I'm chewing, you know. 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:53.199 I'll just like put a finger up, like just a second. 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:54.480 And you're like, but I'm not counting. 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:56.879 But what do you all what do you all think? 00:05:57.519 --> 00:05:59.839 We think you're wasting brilliance on this bite. 00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:03.120 Could you please swallow it so you can share us some image of what you're saying? 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:04.240 Um, that's great. 00:06:04.319 -->

00:06:07.680 Um, when you say working, though, that's got a bit of a broader definition. 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:10.639 Um, because uh consulting works in that. 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:12.560 Well, you got any cases uh in the hopper? 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:13.920 It's been a really busy semester. 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.199 I I try to do more consulting over the summer, less during the school year. 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.959 Uh, but as you know, yeah, as you know, trial calendars are hard to control. 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:25.120 So I was helping with an arbitration against a nursing home that just finished. 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:29.120 Uh, helping on a wrongful death product liability case that's in trial right now. 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.759 Uh by the time this episode comes out, I think we'll be closing. 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:37.279 Uh, three cases coming up employment discrimination, healthcare discrimination, and a personal injury case with you. 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:38.079 Oh, I know. 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.199 And man, it's I love getting work with you in so many ways. 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.079 But um uh, you know, everybody needs a guru, you know. 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:45.279 Justin's pretty good at it. 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:46.319 Well, I thank you. 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:49.439 I I am excited for this one to be over because then we can talk about some of it. 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:54.720 Um and and I think people will enjoy hearing why I was so excited to take to work on this case in particular. 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:56.480 Yes, I imagine so. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:57.120 Yes, yes. 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.839 A pretty, pretty uh nefarious um defendant. 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:00.399 Okay. 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.839 Uh, should we talk about some fake results instead of talking about real trials? 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:04.800 Some fake real results. 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:05.199 Let's do it. 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:05.680 That's right. 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:06.879 Real results, fake trials. 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:07.519 Yeah, exactly. 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:10.560 It's time for part of the bird. 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.519 We had the Colorado for Denver's Summit Cup. 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:24.319 The most professional team present, at least according to the results, was Texas Southern. 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:26.000 Third place was Stetson. 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.959 Finalist, UCLA, heard of them, and winner, Texas. 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:31.519 Congratulations, Mike and Yu Longhorns. 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:34.720 We moved to Florida for the national free trial competition. 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:40.560 The semifinalists were Baylor and Illinois Chicago, finalist Chapman, and the winner, Buffalo. 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:42.959 Congratulations to Jim and Lisa. 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:43.839 Phenomenal result. 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:44.560 No doubt. 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:49.279 All right, now it's time for the largest fall invitational, the all-star bracket challenge. 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:56.480 48 of the 64 teams, that is three-quarters, competed this weekend with the other 16 competing next weekend. 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:57.439 Nice math. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:00.160 In his head, in his head, he did three-quarters in his head. 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:01.199 That part was easy. 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.680 The other part, there's no notes around here or anything. 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:08.240 Um, but there was certainly not an indication in this note that it should have a pause before saying next weekend. 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.000 It just said the wrong word in front of it. 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:12.160 Anyway, or it would have existed. 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:13.759 These teams were the finalists. 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:18.639 Pepperdine, UC Law SF, Nebraska, Go Big Red, Regent, and Rutgers. 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.759 And these six teams are headed to Nationals in San Antonio. 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:27.519 They are Cumberland, Arizona, UCLA, and UCLA, Houston, and Western State. 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:28.399 Love it. 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:29.360 But that's not all. 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:33.039 Justin, I understand that you lost a$20 bet to Brett Bain. 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:34.320 You want to share any details? 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:34.639 No. 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.759 Boy, that does not beg any questions at all. 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:40.399 I wonder if Brett will be able to share the answers to that with us. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:41.120 Probably. 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:43.039 I've sworn Brett to secrecy. 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:44.879 I can confirm that we had a bet. 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:45.919 I can confirm that he won. 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:47.279 I confirm that he has$20. 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.240 Is this is this like a release agreement? 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:51.840 Like some sort of confidentiality thing? 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:53.039 That was part of the bet. 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:54.960 Well, that is a lame bet. 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:57.360 Good job, Brett. 00:08:57.440 --> 00:08:59.519 Uh, what's it gonna cost to uh get the story out of you? 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:01.200 It's gonna be worth way more than the 20 bucks. 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:02.320 I'm sure we can figure that out. 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:03.200 Britt, all right. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:04.720 Brett Brett's a man of his word. 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:05.279 I trust Brett. 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:06.799 Yeah, but Britt, Britt's our guy. 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:08.000 Britt's gonna get this for me. 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:09.759 Britt has loose lips. 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:11.360 Exactly. 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:12.639 All right. 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:21.360 Okay, so talking about All-Star now, you said this was a criminal case, but of course I heard there was something unusual about how you and Phil wrote it. 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:21.679 What? 00:09:22.000

--> 00:09:22.159 Yeah. 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.879 So the case originated as part of our one-on-one summer competition, Trial by Combat. 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:28.879 It's our version of Top Gun. 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.200 Um, and it's for the college students. 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:38.879 So we held uh this year at UCLA, we alternate between Drexel and UCLA, and we decided to do something fun for the students during their 24-hour prep. 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:44.399 We gave them the case, and it was only about 12 pages, as opposed to a Top Gun case, which is about you know 12 volumes. 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:45.039 Wow. 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:45.279 Yeah. 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:45.519 Yeah. 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.960 So 12 pages, a few witness statements, super short, no exhibits. 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:56.480 Because we had staged a crime scene in one of the faculty offices, and the students had time slots where they could go take photos. 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.399 Uh, and it wasn't just a site visit, those photos were the evidence they were allowed to use at trial. 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:01.120 That's cool. 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:01.519 Yeah. 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:03.759 So it was like sort of a reverse escape room. 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.080 Uh the evidence was hidden in there for them to find. 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:16.559 So they had to find the murder weapon, find the blood spatter, find the fingernail of the victim and the uh the photos of the affair and the gift bag and the receipts and the coffee cup and the fridge. 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:18.399 Like all of it was planted for them to find. 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.720 And they'd each get two rounds of of looking for stuff. 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.120 So if they didn't catch it the first time, they hit one more bite of the apple. 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.159 Okay, I gotta pause on the trial by combat thing here because that is awesome. 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:27.519 How well did that work out? 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:46.559 Like, you know, students getting into evidence and laying a foundation and and you know, everybody's exhibits being a little bit, you know, not as good as the other, or maybe better, or maybe this one's fuzzy, or the angle's wrong, or so it ended up working out really smoothly because there were a couple teams that the first time they would take the photos, they were like, oh, this is important, but we didn't get a great snapshot of it. 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:57.919 Well, they had a second bite, so they were allowed to go back and during their second half hour, they could go in and or the second 12 minutes, they can go in and they knew what they were looking for, and they can make sure to get really good photos of the stuff that was important to them. 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:06.720 Uh and then in terms of admission admission to trial, the deal was that any photos taken by either team were automatically deemed to have been taken by the police in that case. 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:14.000 So that the officer, even if you were on cross, had to authenticate your photos and the defendant had to authenticate the photos of being from their office. 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:18.559 But we'd spelled out in the case which things the defendant could disavow and be like, I've never seen that in my office. 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:19.279 That is awesome. 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:19.679 Yeah. 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:33.360 The tricky part was referencing the items in the case enough that people could find most things easily, but not referencing things too explicitly because we wanted there to be still some excitement and surprise about you know actually finding things in the office. 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.159 Also just like the logistics of numbering the exhibits too. 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:41.279 I don't know if you had like you know numbers and letters or if you had to have a joint exhibit list for each trial or right. 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:48.639 So they had to number them on their own before the trial, um, numerical uh for state and alphabetic for defense. 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:49.360 That's cool. 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:50.080 Yeah. 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:50.879 All right. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:12:00.559 So that's super cool to do that for trial by combat, but not really very feasible to do it uh for a Zoom competition like um the All-Star Bracket Challenge. 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:01.919 So what'd you guys do? 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:08.799 Well, as everybody knows, AJ uh Bolito DeLuna was one of the hosts of All-Star, and he's talked about his budget openly on the listserv. 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:13.919 So we thought about just flying everybody to Los Angeles for the competition and yeah, twice, right? 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.919 You know, 12-minute increments, fly them back, bring them back out, and then having them compete on Zoom. 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:19.120 You know, we'd buy them computers. 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:19.600 Yeah. 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:26.879 Um but decided actually, since I took a master set of photos before the trial by combat competition, we would just use those for the case. 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:27.360 Yeah. 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.399 AJ wanted to fly everybody, but I said, let's just save the money. 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:32.320 So yeah, yeah, save for nationals, right? 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:32.559 Yeah. 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:36.080 So we included all those photos in the case and then adapted it for a two-on-two competition. 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:36.559 Got it. 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:36.879 Okay. 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:38.559 Well, nicely done, guys, and very creative. 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:39.120 Thanks. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:40.320 Um, how did shake out? 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:44.000 Uh, and when I say shake out, I mean what's the balance from the trials? 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:48.720 Uh it was 48% for the prosecution and 52% for the defense. 00:12:49.279 -->

00:12:50.080 That is excellent. 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:53.200 So you did something unusual with this year's ballot. 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.519 First of all, would you like to tell us about it? 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:58.559 Yeah, I don't have any uh NDA for this one, so I can share. 00:12:58.879 --> 00:12:59.120 Great. 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:00.000 Please tell us about it. 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:01.600 Great job laying the foundation there. 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:02.559 That was very that was really good. 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.039 Well, I only struggled that my students are working on that right now. 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:09.120 It's like, I just don't like a close-ended question leading to an open-ended response, even though it happens all the time. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:10.240 Just seems inartful to me. 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:10.639 Don't like it. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:11.200 So anyway. 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:12.000 That was great. 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:12.960 Yeah, that was nice. 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:13.600 Yeah, yeah. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:14.240 Go ahead. 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:14.559 Okay. 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:21.600 Uh so the last question on the ballot after they've completed the scores and their advocate ranks is uh, how do you find the defendant in this case? 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:23.600 What is your verdict, guilty or not guilty? 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:30.320 And we make it clear that uh this has nothing to do with their their evaluation of who won the trial, and it's purely for research purposes. 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:31.039 Okay. 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:33.759 Uh just the binary guilty, not guilty. 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:34.399 Correct. 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.600 Is it on the same page as their scores that they would have seen? 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:39.279 Um I don't remember. 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:39.919 Good question. 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:40.559 Yeah. 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:41.200 All right. 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:42.639 Uh and what were the results? 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:53.440 There was a statistically significant correlation between the scores that were given, who they had winning the round, or I should say what the margin of victory was, and the verdict. 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.360 It was a 0.52 correlation across 260 ballots. 00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:58.639 Okay, so what's that mean? 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.519 A 0.5, I'm I'm not being statistically inclined. 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.320 I'm reading that as about half got it right. 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:04.799 Is that wrong? 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:09.519 Uh I don't want to say got it right, got it wrong, but the correlation means two things. 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:18.399 It means one, we can say generally that there is a moderate correlation uh between the two statistics, their scores on the ballots and their verdict. 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:27.759 Uh and the second is we if we were going to be precise about the number, we'd say that approximately 27% of the data is explained by the judge's verdict. 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.799 Now, that doesn't tell us which way causation runs, right? 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:38.639 So you can imagine that their predisposition toward one side or the other or their view of the facts is coloring their their um evaluation of the advocates. 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:46.320 It's also possible that the their evaluation of the advocates is coloring their verdict, or it's possible that uh both things are being driven by the facts of the case. 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:48.480 It's it's hard to separate exactly what's causing what. 00:14:48.879 --> 00:15:02.480 If it had been a 1.0 correlation, would that mean that everybody said that if I if you know I also I found for the defense and also I think the defendant was guilty and vice versa, and it was like every in every single circumstance, is that what that means? 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.399 In the way I was measuring it, wasn't just by who you had winning the ballot, but by how much. 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:20.559 So if you were gonna have a perfect perfect 1.0 correlation, I think it would have to be that uh everybody who voted for voted guilty had the exact same uh score for prosecution, and everybody who voted uh defense would have to have this exact same winning score for defense. 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:22.240 Whoa, you mean like numerical score? 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:23.759 Right, margin of victory, right? 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:24.080 Wow. 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.519 Um, so what do you take from this? 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.120 Like what's uh what's this mean to you? 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:28.720 I think it means a few things. 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:30.399 We know that merits matter, right? 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:36.480 We know that because when we do mock trials all the time, we see that uh imbalances in the facts lead to imbalances and outcomes. 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:50.080 Um, but I try to dig a little deeper and see if we could figure out what was driving what was it whether the performances were leading the judges to have opinions about the case, or whether the opinions about the case were driving their evaluations of the advocates. 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:55.759 So I looked at the individual scorers who were judging multiple rounds to see if their verdicts were consistent from round to round. 00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:02.960 Because you'd think if if they were just, you know, the kind of person who thought the defendant was guilty in this case, well, that would be true every time they they judged, or vice versa. 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:07.440 And 75% of the time when someone judged a second round, their verdict was the same. 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:14.559 But 25% of the time their verdict switched, which tells us that at least some of what's happening with their verdict is influenced by the advocacy. 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:18.480 And by verdict, you mean their actual who do I think this person was guilty or

not? 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:19.039 Correct. 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:20.080 That is interesting. 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:20.639 Huh. 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:32.879 So yeah, most of the time it doesn't seem like it is, but but sometimes it may be that uh the presentation or you know, however they were feeling uh resulted in them to change their their verdict. 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:33.279 Yeah. 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:34.240 Question for you. 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:37.600 How much do you think merits matter in Montreal in terms of outcomes? 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.320 I think it depends on who's judging. 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:49.919 Um, I think folks who have you know are more in the community, uh, you know, currently coaching or you know, coach recently or you know, just involved, I think the merits seem to matter less. 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:59.120 Um but if it's folks who are not involved in community, I think they without war, you know, without proper warnings and such tend to matter more. 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:04.319 Um when you say commu community, do you mean on the education side or people who judge frequently? 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:11.279 Um I guess I mean people who are people who are frequently involved in I guess maybe it's judge frequently. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.799 Um but I don't know, people who are judge or coach frequently. 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:20.240 I guess if you coach doesn't mean you judge, but you have a I think it's just if you're more in touch with the activity, I think the merits matter less. 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.359 If you're less in touch with the activity, I think the merits tend to matter more. 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:24.319 So my guess would be. 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:25.200 Yeah, what do you think? 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:27.119 I think that's largely true. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:31.839 Um, I think that coaches probably have a better sense than uh even practitioners who judge frequently. 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:37.440 I mean, for example, the American College of Trial Lawyers has uh lawyers who've been selected because of their trial success. 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:42.160 And the people who judge at two LA nationals every year are really experienced at judging mantra. 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.119 I mean, many of them come year after year, some of them have been doing this for decades. 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:54.079 And yet we saw a three-year run where there was a 40% win rate for the prosecution or plaintiff every single year, no better than 40%, and sometimes way worse. 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.960 And so I think that people tend to think that they can separate the merits from what they're seeing. 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.400 Uh but it's hard not to be more impressed by an advocate who's more persuasive. 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.359 And being persuasive, you know, is really assisted by having better facts. 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:06.720 Yeah, yeah, that's true. 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:12.240 It's funny, and but also like if you teach a lot and you're you you see a lot of trials, you know, and mock trials that kind of thing. 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:24.640 I yeah, it does make it seem easier to just appreciate the uh the what is happening with the facts that exist, you know, um, than to get, you know, sort of you know, overtaken by the facts themselves. 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.480 But uh that's a good that's a good experiment. 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:27.839 Uh Justin, I'm glad you did it. 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:32.960 Yeah, I've been trying to to add questions like that to more ballots uh to see what we can learn. 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:43.519 It's easier in civil cases, especially where there's allocated liability, because then you're not just dealing with the binary guilty, not guilty, but you can more easily figure out a correlation when you're looking at a range of percentages. 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:44.799 So more to come. 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:45.920 You're such a nerd. 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:47.039 It's true. 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:52.640 Well, speaking of more to come, we had the chance to I was I was afraid you're gonna say speaking of a nerd. 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:53.359 I was gonna say that. 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:54.960 That'd be that's mean, Spencer. 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.960 Well, you can do this transition if you want. 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:58.720 No, you're you were doing great. 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.480 Speaking of more to come, uh, no commentary on any nerdiness. 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:08.480 Uh, we got the chance to speak with Dave Deakinsen from Baylor Law this week. 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:10.400 It was great to get to learn more about Dave. 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:11.359 Sure was. 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.559 Please introduce yourself to the jury, sir. 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:20.400 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.720 My name is Dave Deakin and I'm a lawyer. 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:25.359 Well, you've already knocked one thing off the list, a lawyer. 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:27.839 But what what be a little be a little more descriptive? 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.440 What kind of lawyer are you, sir? 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:33.119 I practice primarily uh in the courtroom. 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:34.000 I'm a trial lawyer. 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:42.160 I do a lot of defense, a lot of plaintiff uh I get hired to try cases and help people try cases, so I consider myself a trial lawyer. 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:48.319 And it's not just limited to obviously your practice uh for yourself in the courtroom. 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:49.759 That's not in fact how we know you. 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.720 We know you because of your very large role of Baylor Law. 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:53.279 Tell us about that. 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:58.880 I have been, I think it's been almost 15 years now that I've been working with Baylor. 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:08.640 Um, as my wife calls it, my second job that uh

makes her a mock trial where I've been working with the Baylor Law School's mock trial program and their PC advocacy program. 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:13.039 On the side working with students and coaching a couple national teams each year. 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:14.240 Dave, where'd you grow up? 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.640 I grew up outside Chicago, Illinois until I came down to Texas to go to Baylor. 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:23.279 Uh how old were you when you moved from Chicago to Texas? 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:33.759 I was a I I literally moved to go to Baylor as a freshman in college, so I was 18, coming down to Texas for the first time to attend college and then never left. 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.599 Okay, so I I I was gonna ask you this later, but I I think now is the right time. 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:45.279 Rob Little suggested that we ask you about the fact that you were uh a lifelong Cubs fan, even though you spent practically your whole life in Texas. 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:46.400 That's according to Rob. 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:51.440 But but it sounds like the truth is it makes sense for you to be a Cubs fan because that's that's where you grew up. 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:52.000 Exactly. 00:20:52.079 --> 00:21:00.880 I grew up going to Cubs games, and although I've spent the vast majority of my life, I can honestly say I was a Cub fan when being a Cub fan wasn't cool. 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.359 That that that's a large part of the Cub history, like a large percentage when it wasn't cool. 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:07.599 Unfortunately, yes. 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.160 Well, I I I think there's two lessons to be learned here. 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.799 One is stick with something, it may pay off, right? 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.200 You guys had the big World Series win a few years ago. 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:17.680 And the second lesson is don't trust Robert Little. 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:19.599 I I agree with both of those statements. 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:20.640 What did your parents? 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:21.680 Oh, sorry, go Spencer. 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:28.640 I'm just curious, did you have Texas connections before you went on down to Baylor, or was it just the Chicago boy headed off to Texas to check it out? 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.960 I had, I don't know, Texas connections. 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:43.839 Uh we have five kids, and out of uh five, uh two of my older brothers, one went to Texas AM and one went to Baylor and was uh he was going for medicine and he told me he knew I wanted to be a lawyer. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.079 He said, If you want to be a lawyer, that's a real lawyer in the courtroom, you need to go to Baylor law school. 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.920 So that's what kind of directed me to go to Baylor under Wow, well he was right about that. 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.759 Uh so I always like to find out. 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:55.839 I mean, what did your what what did your folks do? 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.839 Uh if you know, three fifths of the kids went off to Texas and became professionals. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.200 What what about your folks? 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:18.640 Uh my dad, World War II uh pilot flew in World War II, uh, was a chemical engineer by uh education and trade, worked in the primarily uh the printing industry uh for most of his career in the research and development. 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:32.079 Uh one of the things he did, uh two of his big accomplishments were he brought the first laser printer that uh ever was in the United States from Germany to the United States, uh, and set it up for the company he worked for. 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:47.680 And then another uh he was he had a bunch of patents, but one of his patents was if you guys ever saw the uh jelly discs or the the discs that uh were between uh cup uh trucks and trailers or railroad cars and railroad cars, yeah. 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:48.799 Yeah, he invented that. 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:49.359 Wow. 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.680 So for connecting railroad cars together without destroying the equipment. 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.160 These uh provide some sort of compression, basically. 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:56.559 Yep. 00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:57.680 That is awesome. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.039 Uh and and your mom, she probably kept the kids in order and among other things? 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:22.640 She did, but uh she was a she went to Purdue in engineering for her first three years and then uh went to work for DuPont uh in the world war because she was doing her part as a a lady that uh and went to work so she could help do things in you know for in World War II. 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:24.640 So she had a little bit of education as well. 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.839 Wow, no doubt. 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:27.680 And both did important work. 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:30.000 How did that uh turn into a trial lawyer for you? 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.720 How how did your path become that of a trial lawyer? 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.920 Curious what moment it was where you realized that's gonna be what you're gonna do. 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:43.359 You know, it it's interesting because we had no lawyers in our family at all that I knew of uh when I was deciding. 00:23:43.519 --> 00:24:00.559 And then in the seventh grade, uh I had decided in with history and things where we were we were learning that the law was something that you know, part of it was uh uh the uh Scopes Monkey trial inherit the wind, all that kind of stuff, and it got my interest up. 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:08.319 And ultimately I decided I think I wanted to be a lawyer because being in the courtroom and arguing and representing the people that needed representing seemed cool at the time. 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.480 And I never deviated from it after that. 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:11.440 I love that. 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:14.319 Dave, you went to Baylor for college and for law school.

00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:18.240 Did they have did they have practice court uh when you were at Baylor in the 80s? 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:18.799 Oh, yeah. 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.000 And how is practice court different now than when you were there? 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:32.319 Uh we as you've probably heard, Justin and um Spencer both, uh, we always say that when we were there it was much harder uh than it is now. 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:39.759 Uh I had mad dog Matt Dawson and uh Professor Dawson was unrelenting but in a different way. 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:47.920 He he used the I am so disappointed I failed you in teaching approach to humiliate you, to teach you a lesson. 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.920 And and frankly, uh I thrived in under him for some reason. 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:58.319 And that was the best uh six months of law school that I had was when I was in practice court. 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.240 Do you now teach in practice court at all? 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:01.440 I do, yes, I do. 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:06.559 I I work with when we do the various practice court exercises, mini trial, various things. 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:06.960 Yes, sir. 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:11.759 So if you're saying it was much harder then than it is now, does that mean you've gone soft? 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:15.599 It means uh I don't think the students would say that. 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:16.079 Okay. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:20.720 Uh I I think I'm kindler and gentler because I'm told I have to be. 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:25.440 Uh, but most of my students uh don't seem to agree with me. 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:28.000 Did you have Jerry Powell as a professor? 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:28.799 I did not. 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:34.240 I was uh I was in law school while Jerry was doing his short stint as a real lawyer. 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:34.720 I see. 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:36.319 Did you compete on the trial team? 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:36.880 I did. 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.319 We had one trial team and I was the practice team member. 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:45.279 My uh Dawson had the top four students grade-wise in practice court. 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:51.519 I was not one of the top four, but I got asked to be a practice team member, so I practiced with them and didn't get to go to competition. 00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:54.079 How how much did you get to develop your skills doing that? 00:25:54.319 --> 00:26:05.359 It it was I I think it helped a lot because I saw Dawson in a little bit different light when he was working with team and I got to help and see how he was doing things, how he recommended. 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:21.759 But I also our practice court when I was there, our first uh 12 weeks, our first quarter, uh, because my partner and I uh were fairly successful, we ended up getting to try eight mini trials, uh, which is which was double the the normal then. 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:26.480 And so I had a lot of reps in practice court and then

our big trial uh and other things. 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:31.440 So Dawson and and Dawson was in every one of our trials uh teaching me, if you would. 00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:34.799 This is a perfect time to ask, and I've long wanted to. 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:36.640 Uh Mad Dog Dawson. 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.599 Uh he's got a statue, obviously, at Baylor Law. 00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:41.519 But the the nickname, how do you become mad dog? 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.680 Is that like from a war, perhaps, or something? 00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:44.720 Or do you do you know? 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:49.200 He is it it stemmed from he was just relentless. 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:51.599 Oh, and that's what he was dubbed. 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:53.119 He was just he was the mad dog. 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:57.440 He was just a relentless uh lawyer, uh trial lawyer. 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:00.640 And then when he became Praxis Corps' partner, he continued it. 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.559 I mean practice court professor, excuse me. 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:03.119 Very cool. 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:06.960 Well, now let's talk about your career because you started as a prosecutor in McClellan County. 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:08.400 You had great success. 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.359 Uh by your second year, you were chief of crimes against children. 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:17.440 By your third year, you were already trying multiple murder cases and capital murder cases, which is unheard of to me at least. 00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.119 What did you like about criminal law? 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:22.000 And then why did you decide to leave after three years? 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:23.519 Uh both very good questions. 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.279 What I liked and still like about prosecution is the impact you can have. 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:43.839 You wear the the white hat, and I mean that if you do it the right way, you are representing uh the community and the victims, and you really get to have an impact uh on people, uh, victims in particular, but also on the community. 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:49.279 And so going in there every day felt like I was there for the right reason. 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:59.759 It wasn't about the money, it wasn't about ego, it was about representing uh the the state to try to help people out to have a better community. 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:06.240 So it was a very noble calling, I still think it is, and I still think most prosecutors feel that way. 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:25.839 But partly because I tried so many cases in such a short period of time, and I inherited uh the crimes against children by a visiting judge who ordered me to try a case that I didn't know anything about and had three hours to learn about it, uh, and then got into it as heavily as I did. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:36.880 My wife decided when I was getting up at two in the morning working on things when I didn't have to, she said, maybe now's the time to talk to the people

that have been recruiting you out of the DA's office. 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:38.799 And I think she was probably wise. 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:42.640 Now you joined a civil firm in 1986, right out of the DA's office. 00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:42.880 Yes. 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:44.960 Within within four years you were partner. 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:46.480 Today you're a name partner. 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:51.680 When you joined the firm in 1986, did you ever think you'd be with that same firm for 40 years? 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.279 I no, I didn't. 00:28:53.440 --> 00:29:04.160 Uh and partly because, you know, I I really, and and many, many times I thought about it, but I actually thought I would be in the civil field for a period of time. 00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:22.240 And then ultimately my my thought process was I'm gonna run for DA and I'm gonna go back to doing what I considered the Lord's work and prosecuting and life circumstances, success, and working uh with folks that I thoroughly enjoyed ultimately uh changed my path. 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:23.519 Dave, tell us about your firm. 00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:24.880 First of all, what's the name of the firm? 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:28.799 Firm name is currently Pacus, Geodis, Burleson, and Deakin. 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:30.400 Well, of course he may partner. 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:31.920 There's Deakinsen's in the title. 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.039 Of course, he got of course he got hired. 00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:36.880 Talk about recruiting. 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:37.519 They needed to. 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:38.720 Yeah. 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:39.599 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:44.640 Now I'm uh the the funny thing there is uh I'm the only living name on the letterhead. 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:48.960 So I'm not sure if that's a compliment or what they're trying to send a message to me about. 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:50.480 What if that's true? 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:53.680 Have you considered uh resequencing those names? 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.680 Um actually, no, I would prefer to be at the end. 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:01.200 And frankly, I don't didn't really care whether my name was on there or not. 00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:05.200 But but it was a nice gesture by my partners to uh decide to add me. 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:12.400 It is a really nice gesture, and it is interesting how you know long-time firms like yours, that's what happens with the names. 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:25.759 Uh and it's you know, it's uh it's quite an impressive position to be in, to, as you say, to be the the the name on the board that's um well, that's that's still with us to put to put it uh to put it that way. 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.839 I mean it's really that's amazing because it shows intergenerational success, and there you are. 00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:31.759 Um how big is the firm these days? 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:35.279 We are 15 lawyers, I think, 14 or 15. 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.640 We got one coming on uh that actually just started this week. 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:53.839 So I think we're at 15 lawyers right now, which is uh a good sweet spot for us, for our size of our community, but also the size of our firm because everybody knows each other very well, works well together, and uh don't don't know that I want to grow a whole lot more than where we are. 00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.960 Dave, you've tried more than 200 jury trials, I think. 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:57.359 Is that right? 00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:57.920 Yes, sir. 00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:03.279 That includes big verdicts on behalf of well-known clients, including a complete defense verdict for Roku. 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:05.599 What's the biggest thing you've learned about trying cases? 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.440 Something you do well now that maybe you didn't do as well 30 years ago or 20 years ago. 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:10.880 Great question, Justin. 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:13.359 And I think we might, you and I might have had hold on. 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.240 That that's one great question for Spencer, one great question for me. 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:17.279 It's we're we're tied. 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:18.000 I made a comeback. 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:18.720 Go ahead, Dave. 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.119 Justin's not competitive about these things at all, so don't worry. 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:24.079 No, not not just not competitive about it. 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.240 Over the summer, I learned that's called an equalizer when you tie the score. 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:44.000 Um one of the things that that I learned over the years, and and we've touched on this a little bit, Justin, when we've been killing time during competitions, and that is the importance of just true communication, storytelling and communication with the jury. 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.079 And that starts with Vor Dyer. 00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:55.440 And when I first started in the DA's office, uh, some of the prosecutors and defense lawyers checked the box in Vor Dyer just because that's what had to be done. 00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:07.039 What I have learned uh in trying a lot of these intellectual property cases with these big law firms, a lot of lawyers still just check the boxes and don't think vor Dyer is near as important as it is. 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:14.319 Uh, and and that has grown over the years as far as uh re-establishing and reinforcing how important it is. 00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:23.839 Now, 200 uh plus jury trials, um, multiple decades in the practice, uh, name uh on the masthead. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.799 Um, you gotta get you got to share with us uh a war story. 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.519 What what's one of your favorite war stories that you like to share? 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:35.680 I I'm gonna um it's actually gonna be, and this probably ties back to my overall mentality. 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:48.720 I got I got appointed as a special prosecutor a few years ago in a

murder case in Hill County involving a father that had shot his 14-year-old daughter in the back with a shotgun and claimed it was an accident and various things. 00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:53.119 Uh and the girl happened to be the same age as my youngest daughter when she was killed. 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:58.319 And so I got to try that, you know, I got to get back involved to try that case to a jury. 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:08.640 And during the jury trial, um, there were intimidations attempted, you know, by people trying to intimidate me after hours and all that, which was kind of humorous to me. 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:15.279 Um, but a great war story is uh the judge was Judge Lee Harris, who was now on our 10th court of appeal. 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:18.640 Uh and I uh was in the midst of trying. 00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:23.359 We had a witness that was the defendant's girlfriend that had testified in the case in chief. 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.960 We were now at punishment, and I was recalling her and she disappeared. 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.160 And we learned she disappeared at the direction of the defendants. 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:36.559 Uh, and so the the sheriff brought the defendant's lawyer in, made them tell her where she was, ordered the sheriffs out there. 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:46.160 They went and picked her up, brought her back in, and got to listen to the judge tell her how her accommodations that night were not going to be as nice as she would like them to be. 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:49.279 Uh, but she was spending the night and he helped she brought her toothbrush. 00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:56.319 And the next morning, when we put her on the stand, uh, although she was not very happy, she was much more compliant than she had. 00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:06.640 So just getting back and being able to do that with what I did and and and working with a uh I'm gonna call her a young lady because she she was certainly younger than me. 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.599 That was a DPS uh shotgun expert. 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:26.159 She looked more like a fourth grade teacher, nicest lady in the world, but she knew her shotguns better than anybody else and what she did and working with her on the stand uh and being able to just kind of watch as the defense lawyers just got absolutely eviscerated by her own cross. 00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:34.159 Uh that trial and and bringing back the uh the juices that uh used to flow was probably one of my funnest weeks in trial. 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:34.639 Wow. 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:35.199 That's great. 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:37.119 Kind of story, and to be a special prosecutor. 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:38.719 Um, let's talk about coaching. 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.239 Uh you coach at Baylor's. 00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:42.559 We talked about what when did you start coaching at Baylor? 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:43.199 What year was it? 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:46.639 Well, let me let me uh let me go back before Baylor, if you don't mind. 00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:52.400 I don't uh when I when I started in the DA's office in October of 1983. 00:34:52.559 --> 00:35:04.559 Uh a somebody came to me in uh November of 1983 and says they need a they need a high school mock trial coach at uh what was then University High School in Waco. 00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.440 And I said, What's mock trial in high school like? 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.199 And they said, You'll learn as you go. 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:13.199 And so I actually started coaching mock trial teams at the high school level. 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:20.960 The year I became uh licensed, uh, coached with the Waco Independent School District schools for about 23 years. 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:21.519 Wow. 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.039 Retired from that. 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:27.199 My daughters both went to Midway High School, both wanted to do mock trial. 00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:29.920 So I came out of retirement and coached eight more years. 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.639 And during those eight years, I was also coaching uh for uh Baylor Law School. 00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:42.079 Uh so I had a time when I was going every at literally every day, I was either at Baylor Law School or at uh Midway High School. 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:48.639 And my wife, because it was my daughter, just kind of dubbed herself a mock trial widow and said, during this time of year, I rarely see them. 00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:56.960 So I go back a little ways, and then Jim Wren was the one that recruited me to start at uh Baylor Law School. 00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.400 Like I said, it was about 15-ish years ago, give or take. 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.320 Um, and he said, I I need your help. 00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:03.679 Will you just come help me? 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.599 Um, and the the lure of that was we're gonna pay you. 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:18.159 He said, No, it's it's not gonna be anything uh that you can do much other than you know take your wife on a weekend somewhere, uh, but it's gonna be more than your high school pay. 00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:23.039 Uh and I said, you know, and Jim was a friend, and I said, Jim, I'll if you need my help, I'll help you. 00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:26.800 And little did I know that I would continue to do that for these many years. 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:29.599 Now, Dave, you've been extremely successful as a coach. 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:39.440 I know you're humble, but you've had incredible results at NCTC, AHA regionals, AJ Nationals, including the AHA National Championship in 2024. 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:45.599 What is it about coaching that keeps bringing you back year after year, even though you're super busy running a law firm? 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:57.039 Um it's the students and being able what one of the things that I have tried to do and that has always been uh something that I think is very important is the mentoring side of being a lawyer. 00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:05.039 And I get

the opportunity to work with students that want to excel, want to work hard, want to learn, and I get a chance to mentor them. 00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:07.440 And I get a chance to continue relationships. 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:13.519 I have a lot of young lawyers that have become not so young lawyers that I've coached that we still keep in contact. 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:19.679 Uh, that I spent, I mean, uh, Justin, you know, one young, young lawyer by the name of Anderson Tittle. 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:21.280 I just sent Anderson. 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:26.559 Anderson worked, I she was one of my students, but she worked for me for two years at the firm here. 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.800 And I just sent her off two weeks ago to go clerk for Judge Nicole Mitchell, a U.S. 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:33.039 magistrate in the Eastern District of Texas. 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.320 And I still keep in touch with her and a lot of others. 00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:49.920 And I think that side of the coaching to me is what keeps me coming back, even at my age, you get to spend with younger folk that are still energetic, eager, and hopefully help impact their uh course trajectory. 00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:58.639 Now, I think to other coaches you come across as soft-spoken, patient, even-tempered, even keel, that's that's certainly what you come across during our conversation today. 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.480 Is that how you are with your students, or or is there another side to your coaching style? 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.599 Uh are there things that students can do that that get a rise out of you? 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.639 Uh yes, there can be another side. 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:16.480 Uh, I will tell you, I am uh my students amongst themselves will will discuss me. 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:33.360 And what they what they describe to new students is uh number one, I'm gonna write them, and I don't mean in a bad way, but I'm gonna work them until they do it the way I think they should, or or more importantly, where they rise to the level of their talent and use their talent. 00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:44.559 Um, but I'm also one of those that they they say they don't want to disappoint because I'll work hard with you, but if you start disappointing me or you start not working, it's not gonna be pretty. 00:38:44.719 --> 00:39:12.960 And I think uh they just kind of take the approach of I'm not as laid back as I might come across and will tell you uh stories about me that uh were where I have ripped into them uh in a appropriate way, but I I have ripped into many students because I thought they were either just mailing in at the time or that they had much more talent than they were exhibiting, and I wanted to show them where their talent was. 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:15.119 I I want to get a sense of what that looks like. 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:19.360 Imagine you've got a student, we'll call him Spencer, who comes to practice. 00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:26.800 He's supposed to have prepared his opening statement, be off notes, and he comes to practice, and not only is he not off notes, he hasn't finished writing it. 00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:32.800 I want you to look at him right now and and you know, what would you say to well why why don't we use this Spencer as the as the example? 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:35.760 So look at Spencer and tell us what you'd say and make sure you use his name. 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:37.920 We're gonna get all the Baylor coaches to do this at some point. 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:41.440 Yeah, Jerry Jerry Powell did this a couple years ago, but it's it's your turn. 00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:45.280 Uh Spencer, uh, do you really want to be on this team? 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:58.480 Because what you have just shown me is either a lack of effort, uh, you have other desires you would prefer to be pursuing, or you're not as smart as I really anticipated and gave you credit for. 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.480 And I know that's not what the case is. 00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:02.880 So obviously there's a disconnect here. 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:09.119 So what we're gonna do is I'm gonna give you a few minutes, you're gonna go back out, you're gonna come back in, and you're gonna do it again. 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:13.360 And if you don't do it the right way, we're gonna do it until you do that. 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:21.039 And if you're not happy with that, then now is probably a good time for you to let me know you're not willing to work as hard as you should. 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:22.559 And I'll get somebody that is. 00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.440 Boy, I can imagine a Spencer feeling scolded by that. 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:26.239 Yeah. 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:32.639 Also, that is shockingly like our conversation before you signed on, Dave. 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.480 This is all the this is not written down in any script. 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:37.679 There's no scripts around here. 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:38.800 This wasn't all planned. 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:43.840 Uh, Dave, how would you compare the way you coach law students to the way you mentor law firm associates? 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:58.480 I am a the associates, I probably do not do what I just uh expressed to Spencer, but I, with associates, I expect them to do the work, but I show them when they have an issue or where they're failing. 00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:05.119 I'll I'll just say, let's sit down and walk through this and figure out why you did it this way and why you need to do it differently. 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:11.599 So I'm a I'm a little bit more uh I'm not gonna tell them, you know, you want to leave this firm. 00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:16.239 I know that because we've hired more than invest in them uh financially as well as long term. 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:35.119 So there's, and I have a little more time with the associate to be able to do that versus coming in in the evenings and knowing that these students also have a

full course load, oftentimes and most of the time, PC full course load where they are being pushed so hard that I've got to take that into account where I don't have that with an associate. 00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.559 Now during competitions, I I always see you sitting in the hallway during trials. 00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.440 Uh, who taught you not to watch the students during trial? 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.639 My students did. 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:50.079 That goes that goes back to um I had students start asking me, are you gonna watch us? 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:50.880 And I say, why? 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:59.119 And they go, Because if you're in there, you're gonna make a facial expression or do something, we're gonna see it, and then we're gonna worry about where we screwed up. 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:07.119 So if you don't mind, I would prefer you not be in here and let somebody else that is just gonna watch that is a kindler, gentler person. 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:11.280 Uh and I I'll tell the story on me at AAJ Regional. 00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:14.559 We had a team that ultimately went to nationals and did well. 00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:18.559 One of the lawyers did something that I decided I better get up and leave. 00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:20.159 This was when I was still watching them. 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:32.000 Little did I know how quickly and how loud I got up and how much how loud the door slammed, to the point that everybody, including the judge, knew, all right, he did not like what happened with his student on that thing. 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:35.280 And that kind of taught me, all right, I better just stay out. 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:44.800 Uh everybody would uh be happier and there'll be less potential issue with students uh breaking down or freaking out or panicking if I'm not in there. 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:45.760 So I stay out. 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.480 Well, I realize that you never get to see your teams in trial. 00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:50.000 Um unfortunately, I do. 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:57.920 Uh I remember one day in 2024 when I saw them twice in the same day when you knocked us out in the semis and then you beat us in the finals uh at AJ. 00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:00.480 Uh your teams are exceptionally well coached. 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:06.639 Um, and even though you don't get to see them in action, I can tell you that they they are are very good and you'd be very proud to see them. 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:07.280 Well, thank you. 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:08.320 I appreciate that. 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:20.559 Uh they are typically some of the hardest working uh young future lawyers that uh you will see, and they all seem to uh thrive ultimately in the in the real world, which is which is good though. 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:21.199 I appreciate that. 00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:25.840 Dave, you said you've been coaching for 15 years or so at the law school level. 00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:28.320 Of course, you got much more than that back in the high school level. 00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:33.280 But I'm curious, at the law school level, what's the biggest change you've seen in those 15 years in in the competition scene? 00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:38.320 You know, Spencer, it's it's funny, it seems to be a little bit cyclical. 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:44.559 Uh when I first started coaching, there was a more formulatic, scripted, you got to do things. 00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:48.239 It it evolved to more of a true advocacy. 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:56.800 I think COVID took it back to just because the nature of a Zoom more scripted, more a little bit more theatrical. 00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:59.760 Uh, I have seen it going back in the last few years. 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:10.880 That were back fully live, more toward a truly good advocacy argument and not so much the college mock trial influence. 00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:16.559 Though for a time I thought the college mock trial influence was was a bit too per uh pervasive. 00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:20.320 I just like to see get them up there, do it, let them advocate. 00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:31.039 Uh and and you see some really good with with some of the right judges, you see some really good back and forth, whether it's an evidentiary argument or just responding on cross-direct objections. 00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:39.679 When they're doing that, you really just kind of sit back and uh and when I say I see it, I watch videos and all that, but or hear about it. 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:43.039 Uh but that to me is is what it's all about. 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:58.480 Teaching them to think on their feet, to be able to pivot, to be able to respond, and to be able to not look lost when a witness is going a different direction or a judge is making a ruling that you didn't expect them to make. 00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:10.400 And so teaching them teaching them to be able to pivot and to adapt on the fly is something that that I think is is critical and I've seen to kind of deviate going back more toward allowing the students to do that. 00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:13.519 Let's turn to some fun stuff, starting with capital murder. 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:15.119 Dave, how'd you meet your wife? 00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:39.039 Um I'm one of those number one, when you say capital murder, uh it it kind of actually does make me smile and and not the capital murder aspect of it, but the prosecution side of things, because uh prosecuting the capital murders that I got to prosecute uh were also some of the highlights of my career for the right reasons and not because of the victims and what happened, but just some of the things I learned. 00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:51.920 Um and one of the things I learned was you can meet your wife, even in the worst circumstances, like prosecuting a capital murder case, because uh first capital murder case I worked extensively on. 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:58.719 My wife ended up who was not I had never met her in my life before,

happened to be a brand new Baylor graduate. 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:05.840 And for whatever reason, uh the lead prosecutors put her on as a juror against my recommendations. 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:15.679 And then the last day of trial at when it was over, introduced me to her, told me I needed to take her out at least one time just to see what intel I could get. 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:19.360 Um set me up, did all the stuff, I ultimately did go out with her. 00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:21.199 We were married less than a year later. 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:24.400 So you can get some positive out of capital murder cases. 00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:26.079 Uh that's some really good void here. 00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:27.199 I use it. 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:29.280 Well, hopefully only once. 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:50.639 Well, as far as the void here, but I actually use that story uh when I talk to jurors in jury selection to kind of as an icebreaker to say, you know, number one, it tells them a lot, a little bit about me, but also tells them uh and kind of gives them the hey, you know, lawyers can be human and you can actually uh uh see some positive about lawyers every now and then. 00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:54.559 Does your wife get nervous every time it's it's you're gonna go pick a new jury? 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:56.800 She's 200 no, man. 00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:03.840 No, she's she's pretty she's pretty comfortable uh after 40 years of marriage that uh she knows me well. 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:04.880 And so Okay. 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:10.800 Uh on your wall back there, Dave, I see at least two masters photos. 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:13.679 Um, you're are you a you're a big golf fan, obviously. 00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.199 Uh you're a big golfer as well. 00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:15.840 I didn't know that. 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:17.119 I am not a big golfer. 00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:17.840 I'm a hacker. 00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:19.039 I am a golf fan. 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:19.440 Okay. 00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:20.639 I am a hacker. 00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:26.559 Um I have Spencer, uh, as you know, we annually we have our Academy of the Advocate over in St. 00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:27.199 Andrews. 00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:32.079 I've been I've run and walked the old course multiple, multiple times. 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:34.320 I've never played around a golf there yet. 00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:38.400 Do you do you play badly or just not play, but like a little bit? 00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:39.599 I don't play enough. 00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:50.000 You know, I have enough good shots that when I play I want to go back, but I don't play well enough to justify saying that I can play where the origin of golf occurs. 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:51.599 You put it that way. 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.000 I'd love to play over there someday. 00:47:54.079 --> 00:48:02.880 I just you know the people that I go over there with that come friends of ours that are big golfers, for some some reason they always get their tea times in the morning when I'm teaching. 00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:03.679 That's weird. 00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:05.360 Yeah, just a strange phenomenon. 00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:08.880 Dave, for as long as I've known you, I think you've had the same facial hair. 00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:10.480 Is that called a circle beard? 00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:10.880 Is that right? 00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:21.760 You know, I have no idea what it's called, but yes, I have had I've literally, my wife has never seen me without some form either in my mustache, which was before this, or uh the rest of it, the circle. 00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:23.360 Uh I've had it for quite a while. 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:25.199 When was the last time you were clean shaven? 00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:28.239 My sophomore year in college for about a month. 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.280 And if you want to declare that a great question and break the tie, that's fine. 00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:32.159 That that wasn't great. 00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:35.280 That was an insightful question as well. 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:36.480 Thank you, Dave. 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.760 Uh is it cheapened by the fact that I had to ask for it? 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:40.159 Yes. 00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:40.960 Will I take it? 00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:41.679 Also, yes. 00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:44.320 Uh now you you told us that you're a Cubs fan. 00:48:44.559 --> 00:48:47.760 Is it true you have Cubs season tickets even while living in Waco? 00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:48.719 It is true. 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:50.559 Yes, I do have Cubs season tickets. 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:51.519 What do you do with them? 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:56.800 I sell most of them and I go up there and see some of them, uh, use some of them. 00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.639 Uh I was uh I got to go to some playoff games last year. 00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:02.559 I I I will tell you the story behind it. 00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:04.239 Obviously, growing up a Cub fan. 00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:10.639 Back when they started making the playoffs again, now it's been about 22 years ago. 00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:19.039 Uh I got on the season ticket waiting list as a whim just because I knew I would never ever be able to get it but I just thought it was kind of cool to be on the waiting list. 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:26.400 And then four years ago, I got the email and the phone call saying your number is gonna be up if you want to buy season tickets. 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:29.440 Well, by then I figured what the heck? 00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:36.320 Uh so I dropped my country club membership and used the money that I did that, and it's much better spent with season tickets. 00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:43.199 And I've gotten uh I've gotten to go to some really, really cool games and meet some interesting Cubs uh legends. 00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:45.039 But yes, I do have season tickets. 00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:52.480 I will uh admit it and I will admit that I can't

justify the cost other than personally, it's and emotionally, it's well worth it to me. 00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:59.199 Well, I want you to rank these three feelings winning a big trial, winning AAJ nationals, and the Cubs winning the World Series. 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:00.639 Man, that's a tough one. 00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:03.360 That's a that's a good question because it's a tough question. 00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:03.840 Wow. 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:05.119 Okay, so three to one. 00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:05.519 Go on. 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:19.840 It's it's uh I would probably do I would probably make winning a big trial number three, and I would probably make winning AAJ Nationals and the Cubs World Series 1A and 1B, and they could be interchanged. 00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:22.480 Okay, strong answer to a great question, Spencer. 00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:25.199 Oh, it's just circular here anyway. 00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:28.639 Um we're told uh that you're a big Vegas guy. 00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:29.920 Curious, is that true? 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:32.639 And uh what what's that mean to be a big Vegas guy, if so? 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:35.360 Uh it depends on your definition of a big Vegas guy. 00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:36.719 I go to Vegas, yeah. 00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:39.360 I mean, and and I like that question, Spencer. 00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:42.159 Uh, because Oh, pity points, pity points. 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:42.880 Oh, listen to this. 00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:49.599 Because it's well, it's I I like it because it's unrelated to law, but it's it's related to enjoying life. 00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:52.400 And so therefore I will give you kudos for that. 00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:57.440 Uh I started going to Vegas with a group of friends 35 years ago, 30 years ago. 00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.320 Uh, as a once a year we get away. 00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:09.679 Our wives all laugh because they know out of our group we're pretty boring people, so there's no risk in Vegas, other than maybe losing a little money. 00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:13.039 Uh, and we started doing it and the group has grown. 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:18.079 Uh we've had some uh people that have moved away that will still come. 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:22.400 We've had move away, and it's just a great thing to look forward to every year. 00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:32.000 It's a fellowship trip uh where we get good meals, uh, we we gamble and some of the guys play golf and just have a great time and uh kind of uh regenerate. 00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:36.159 Dave, what is your favorite thing you're good at and your favorite thing you're not so good at? 00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:47.840 My favorite thing that I'm not so good at is probably I'm gonna put it, I'm gonna put it in a word context because uh I enjoy trials uh and there's a lot of things. 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:53.039 My favorite thing that I think I'm not so good at is closing arguments. 00:51:53.199 --> 00:52:02.960 Uh I I think I'm good, but I'm not near as

good as some of the others I practice with because I'm not uh I tend to be more reserved. 00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:16.800 Uh and so from that standpoint, uh my favorite thing that I am really good at, I I think is mentoring law students, and that's fulfilling in a blast, and I've been doing it. 00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:19.360 Uh so I'll put that pretty high up. 00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:20.800 Dave, thank you for coming on. 00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:22.960 It was it was really fun to get to know you better, no doubt. 00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:26.800 Gentlemen, uh both uh Justin and Spencer, I appreciate it. 00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:32.079 Uh and I've enjoyed uh getting to know you guys over the course of the competitions. 00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:37.199 Uh and I will say this to Justin, um, I have enjoyed beating you at Nashville. 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:38.079 Yeah, thank you. 00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:39.280 It wasn't what he expected. 00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:41.679 Wasn't what he was thinking a little bit on the head. 00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:43.199 I I I really have enjoyed it. 00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:46.800 Yeah, I in all honesty, and and this doesn't have to be uh obviously on there. 00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:48.000 Uh oh it has to be honest. 00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:58.480 Haven't spent as much time with you, Spencer, but I've seen Justin a lot in the competitions, and I I've I've enjoyed uh getting to know Justin better and my opinion of Justin. 00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:02.639 I don't mean that in a negative way toward Justin, but just getting to know about Justin and more. 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:03.760 I I've enjoyed that. 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:05.519 So hopefully we will all continue. 00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:06.559 And I'll see you, Spencer. 00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:08.320 I'll see you more competition, maybe. 00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:17.599 But I but I but I enjoy that aspect of competition, of getting to know the Justins of the world better, people that I would never encounter but for my trial. 00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:18.480 Couldn't agree more. 00:53:18.639 --> 00:53:23.119 And and I I'd be remiss if I didn't congratulate Spencer on the one good question and the one question you like. 00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:24.719 We're having a nice moment. 00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:26.079 Goodbye. 00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:30.320 Thanks for the bone. 00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:32.079 Much appreciated, enjoying it. 00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:33.039 Good seeing you guys. 00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:39.039 But that's not all. 00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:41.440 We also spoke with Marion Riley this week. 00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:49.679 She is a superstar trial lawyer and appellate lawyer in Texas, fresh off a$1.6 billion verdict earlier this year. 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.880 We got the chance to talk with her about how she uses her appellate skills to improve her trial practice. 00:53:55.119 --> 00:53:56.800 Did you say$1.6 million? 00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:59.840 Um billion, my friend. 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:01.280 Wow, that's so much more. 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:02.719 Thank a thousand times more. 00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:03.920 Approximately. 00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:04.960 Here's Marion. 00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:13.119 We welcome Marion Riley to Unscripted Direct. 00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:19.199 Marion is the co-founder of Martinez Riley Trial Lawyers in Corpus Christi, Texas, and an adjunct professor of law. 00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:20.000 A graduate of St. 00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:33.199 Mary's University School of Law, she's been named to Best Lawyers in Texas multiple years, has been a Texas Super Lawyer Rising Star seven years running, and was named Outstanding Young Lawyer of the Year by the San Antonio Young Lawyers Association in 2018. 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:44.000 What's especially distinctive, and what we're going to lean into today, is that in 2022, Marion was recognized as Texas's featured appellate attorney, a distinction given to only one attorney per state per year. 00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:48.639 So she brings a unique eye to her trial practice, that of an accomplished appellate attorney. 00:54:48.800 --> 00:55:03.519 Adding to the many accolades is this Marion recently tried a case in Star County, Texas that resulted in a stunning$1.6 billion overall verdict on behalf of the families of two workers killed in a 2023 explosion at a hazardous chemicals plant. 00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:06.960 The verdict is believed to be a record for workplace injuries in Texas. 00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:08.880 Marion, welcome to Unscripted Direct. 00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:09.679 Thank you, Spencer. 00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:10.239 Happy to be here. 00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:11.760 Well, we're lucky to have you. 00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:15.920 Uh I I would I do want to get to stealing something from you, a method. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:18.239 Um, but first we just got to talk about this verdict. 00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:20.079 Uh tell us a little bit more about this case. 00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:20.880 Yes, sir. 00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:26.239 So um, you know, part, I struggle a little bit with celebration of the number, right? 00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:30.159 I mean, this is we as trial lawyers, we we have a job to do. 00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:35.760 Oftentimes, especially in cases like this, we're hired on the worst day of somebody's life. 00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:40.719 Um, so meeting the family, we represented the family of Angel Lafa, he was killed. 00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.480 He was one of um two workers on a killed on a pipeline explosion. 00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:49.519 And he had left behind two daughters, a wife and his parents, all of which we represented. 00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:52.559 Um, I remember going down there in preparation for trial. 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:54.480 We had dinner with the family beforehand. 00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:59.920 And his um, one of his young daughters, seven-year-old little girl, she, I mean, she just lit up the room. 00:56:00.079 -->

00:56:05.760 Everything about her, you know, was just um, she was so optimistic and just a wonderful personality. 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:17.840 So to sit down and have dinner with the family, you know, the day before you're going to go do opening and try their case, it brings a lot of um real life impact and feeling to that case. 00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:21.599 I mean, the concept of I have to do this family justice because they're real. 00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:25.199 This is a real family, these are real little kids, this is a real wife. 00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:30.800 I mean, it's not just um it's it's not just a story that we have to tell to a jury. 00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:32.239 It's it's real people. 00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:36.559 And I'll just second that by saying that, you know, I I'm a trial lawyer as well. 00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:41.599 And, you know, there is just nothing like the feeling of connection to a human who needs you, right? 00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:43.599 I mean, there you just described it so beautifully. 00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:44.880 It's amazing what we get to do. 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:45.599 Yes, yes. 00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:49.840 And especially on the day of opening was the seven, she had turned seven on the day of opening. 00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:50.559 It was her birthday. 00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:57.599 So I talked to the jury a little bit about the fact that, you know, that was her birthday and she had to celebrate another year with without her dad. 00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:09.199 So to kind of bring real life stories to the jury and have them understand that it's more than um the particular case or the particular facts at hand, but these are real people, real lives. 00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:21.440 And my understanding of the facts of the case, generally, you'll have to you'll have to correct me here, is that uh at this hazardous chemicals plant, uh, this terrible explosion happens in the midst of welding that's that's occurring. 00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:30.719 And there's these gentlemen who who who died are welding, and you know, of course, they are getting terrible or non-existent instruction on what to do and how to do it. 00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:33.199 And multiple defendants were initially sued. 00:57:33.280 --> 00:57:39.119 Those had been dealt with by the time of trial, and it left this one incredibly intransigent, obstinate defendant. 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:40.000 Can you tell us about them? 00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:40.320 Yes. 00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:42.559 So Upton Assets was the property owner. 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:50.320 Um, the gentleman who owned Upton Assets actually owned a number of the other uh companies involved that had settled out prior to the time of trial. 00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.599 Um, the the property owner, though Upton Assets did not. 00:57:53.760 --> 00:58:02.320 This was a fairly big plant, a sizable plant, um, a lot of revenue, a lot of income with respect to the load that they processed on the oil. 00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:05.519 Um they didn't hire the right people to do the right job. 00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:11.039 They didn't do what they were supposed to do with respect to cleaning out the plant, uh cleaning out the tanks that were involved. 00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:14.320 They knew that there was a leak on one of the tanks. 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:19.840 Um, they knew what they had to do to make it right so that these workers could come in there and do their job safely. 00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:21.199 And they didn't do it. 00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:26.480 And I think the jury um told up NASA's what happens when you don't do what you're supposed to do. 00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:30.719 And they did it very, very clearly, in my opinion, by virtue of this verdict. 00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:37.760 Um, but I think that it tells the story or tells a warning tale to other companies that you have to do it right. 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:43.199 When you're dealing with people, when you're dealing with lives, you need to make sure that you're doing things safely and doing them correctly. 00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:50.000 That's that salutary benefit of a great outcome like this, is it's it's newsworthy to other bad actors out there. 00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:56.559 I'm curious, do you think it's newsworthy to uh lawyers with regard to their tactics in litigation? 00:58:56.719 --> 00:58:57.119 I don't know. 00:58:57.199 --> 00:58:59.199 Maybe I'm just being naive here, but being hopeful. 00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:05.519 I mean, Upton Assets, as I understand it, was incredibly aggressive at blaming these gentlemen who died for what had happened. 00:59:05.760 --> 00:59:09.519 And the jury zeroed them on comparative fault, right? 00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:11.280 I mean, like completely exonerated. 00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:13.199 This is only Upton Assets' fault. 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:18.480 Do you think there's any, you know, sense that maybe that wasn't a great trial tactic to attack these gentlemen? 00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:18.960 Yeah. 00:59:19.039 --> 00:59:26.480 So interestingly, um, they had pre-trial, we had gotten a lot of suggestion that they were going to attempt to put a lot of blame on the workers themselves. 00:59:26.719 --> 00:59:36.480 Um at during closing argument, the the lawyer who presented for the defense didn't actually suggest a number on um on either Angel or or Mr. 00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:37.280 Garcia. 00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:40.960 They instead attempted to put it on the other companies who were there. 00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:45.280 They said, okay, Epton hired another company called um Access Transport. 00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:50.400 So put a percent on Access Transport, put a percent on this defendant, put a percent on this defendant. 00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:59.199 So they actually didn't attempt to, during closing argument, ask the jury to apportion any liability or responsibility on the two individuals themselves. 00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:08.480 Um, they did,

which I thought was interesting and I hadn't seen in my practice before, they did actually ask the jury to award uh 12.6 million to the plaintiffs. 01:00:08.559 --> 01:00:13.199 Um I thought that that was kind of a that's pretty substantial and sizable amount. 01:00:13.360 --> 01:00:14.000 I hadn't seen that. 01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:25.119 I've of course been involved in trials where defendants have said they're asking for too much money, don't give that much, give this much, but the number that they suggest is substantially lower than what they did in this case. 01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:39.440 So I wonder if that perhaps had something to do with um the level, like maybe the jury perceived that as an acknowledgement of guilt and then said, okay, that that's not the number that we accept as being reasonable for this and and one higher. 01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:42.719 I, you know, that I'm not really sure, but I thought that was interesting. 01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:47.360 It's interesting to know that they they didn't blame these gentlemen, Angel and the other uh gentlemen. 01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:53.280 And maybe it was just, you know, um the the the lesson was learned before trial without with regard to blaming them. 01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:54.960 But it's interesting, you're right. 01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:59.280 The the the you know, saying some degree of fault, okay, put that on up 10 assets. 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:01.519 If that opened the door and the jury's like, great, door's open. 01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:02.559 We're happy to walk through it. 01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:03.199 It's interesting. 01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:04.159 Right, exactly. 01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:04.800 All right. 01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:09.280 Well, um, I always say at the beginning of this uh segment, we'd like to steal something from you, if you don't mind. 01:01:09.360 --> 01:01:17.840 Um, we'd like to take to get an insight from you from your practice that that we as trial lawyers and budding trial lawyers can put to use. 01:01:18.079 --> 01:01:23.760 I thought I'd ask you about the very unique connection between your appellate practice and trial practice. 01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:30.320 How does your work in appellate law inform what you do when you're trying a case? 01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:31.199 Big question. 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:31.840 Big question. 01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:32.639 Yeah. 01:01:33.119 --> 01:01:36.960 Um it it feels like they're two different worlds, right? 01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:45.199 It feels like as an appellate lawyer, when you go back and you read the record, you think, and there's a kind of a tendency to really criticize trial lawyers to say, well, why didn't they do this? 01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:48.639 Why didn't they preserve error in this way, or why didn't they make this objection? 01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:50.239 And it's easy, right? 01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:52.000 It's easier said than done. 01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:58.480 When you're looking back and you're reading the record, I feel like it's easier for an appellate lawyer to say, well, they should have done this, they should have done that. 01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:02.000 As a trial lawyer, having been there, having been in the moment, it's hard. 01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:09.840 It's hard when you're juggling 20 different things and you're trying to make sure that you know you are in fact preserving error and doing it in the exact way that you need to. 01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:15.679 But sometimes at the very moment, it doesn't come out the way that the appellate lawyer wishes that it came out. 01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:21.760 Um, so I I find that the interplay between those two, I tend to be overprepared. 01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:23.360 I prepare for everything. 01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:27.280 I ask myself before I go in, what is the other side gonna argue? 01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:32.159 Or when I see this, if I have to read the record on appeal, where am I gonna criticize myself? 01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:38.800 And to the extent that I can prevent that on the front end or prepare for it on the front end, I try to do that. 01:02:39.039 --> 01:02:44.000 Do you think you err more on the side of listen, uh, you know, we have a dispute here on this or that evidentiary issue, whatever? 01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:45.679 I we're gonna we're gonna put it on the record. 01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:49.360 And of course, I think we all do that, but do you uh is there something more to you that you bring to that? 01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:52.400 I mean, you obviously understand the law better too, probably than the average trial lawyer. 01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:58.719 But I don't know, do you find yourself to be like really, really requiring we're gonna put this on the record, you know, we're gonna, you know, do you do you do that more, do you think? 01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:03.760 Um I don't do that more uh in the other than the charge conference. 01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:08.719 I would say when it comes to the charge conference and actually making sure that we're preserving objections appropriately. 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:13.920 And Texas law, of course, is is very stringent with respect to preservation of error on the jury charge. 01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:18.639 I am very stringent on the way that I preserve error and the process that I go through on that. 01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:28.159 So if there's any question of doubt on whether something should be included or not, I make sure to go through the steps that I have to to get, you know, my objections in rioting and tender things appropriately to the court. 01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:29.840 Um so what's that look like? 01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:38.880 I mean is it an additional brief, you know, if there is a dispute on this or that jury instruction or it's you know going on the record for an extended period during the charging conference or something else, all the above? 01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:40.239 A combination of both. 01:03:40.400 -->

01:03:42.400 Um, usually I'll have briefs in advance. 01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:50.320 I anticipate what legal issues are going to come up, where they're where the other side is going to oppose particular issues and make sure that I have that fully briefed. 01:03:50.400 --> 01:04:06.079 And then I'll ask the court, you know, to be on the record, ask for the court reporter to be there, and then make the formal objection um on record and then go through and actually give the court a copy of the objection in writing, have the court sign there, ask for the ruling then and there in writing. 01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:14.239 Um, so that's kind of what that ends up looking like on the appellate side of things or the trial side of things during the charge conference. 01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:19.119 What advantages do you think it gives you being an appellate practitioner who also tries cases? 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:35.360 The probably the advantage of thinking things through and seeing where the other side may say that's going to be something that we're going to take up on appeal and kind of finding the ways that we or the things that we need to argue as trial lawyers that I know have lost on appeal. 01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:51.519 So if I need to phrase something a little bit differently, if I know that, for instance, arguing um that negligent hiring is not, you know, is separate than chapter 95, for instance, in Texas, I know that that's already gone up on appeal and I know how the appellate court has ruled on that issue. 01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:53.199 So I'm going to avoid that argument. 01:04:53.280 --> 01:05:01.840 And I think that there's a tendency, and it's difficult, of course, to do to know all of the law and all of the cases on whatever it is that you're going to trial on. 01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:13.599 But I think that that does provide an advantage because I try to figure out where the where the appellate court has not spoken and if we can fit in a case on the trial level into those little um nuanced areas. 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:20.559 Is there an example from the recent verdict where you know you you drew on your appellate practice to make a decision at trial? 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:21.599 Um there is. 01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:31.360 We ended up actually going, you know, it it was uh what I believe may ultimately be a premises liability case, um, what's called in Texas a chapter 95 case. 01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:46.320 We did though go ahead and present both um a premises liability question and a negligence question on the charge in the event that, you know, there there is a a section in our pattern jury charge book here in Texas that says, you know, if there's a question, submit both. 01:05:46.559 --> 01:05:49.119 The defendant said, no, this is chapter 95. 01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:52.639 We don't want you to submit an ordinary negligence question to the jury. 01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:59.760 And I said, if there's an if there's any question, we need to go ahead and submit both, and then we can work it out on the on the back end or the you. 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:04.079 the court can decide what they want to actually issue with respect to that judgment. 01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:04.960 I love it. 01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:13.840 Well, um there's some debate in the community, um, and this is a trial advocacy podcast, of course, about which of the branches of competition are better, uh, trial, appellate, or ADR. 01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:18.639 And if you could just settle this for for for all time here, just let us know that it's trial if you if you don't mind doing that. 01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:19.360 Yeah, absolutely. 01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:20.320 It's actually ADR. 01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:21.280 So you're wrong on that. 01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:31.039 But you know, um like like we tell students that try out for the team, you can't go through a case, you can't get to trial, you can't get to appeal unless you're negotiating. 01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:36.559 So and really at the end of the day, the way that you in my experience get the money is through negotiation. 01:06:36.639 --> 01:06:38.000 So that's why we love ADR. 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:39.920 But um I really love all the disciplines. 01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:41.360 I'm not going to get it out of you. 01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:41.679 All right. 01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:42.239 Fair enough. 01:06:42.400 --> 01:06:49.679 Well Marion, thank you so much for joining us and and sharing your insights and congratulations again, not only to you but to the families who benefit from your great work. 01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:50.000 Yeah. 01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:50.719 Thank you, Spencer. 01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:51.920 I appreciate it. 01:06:57.280 --> 01:06:59.119 All right we turn to our mailbag. 01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:00.719 I can't can't get it open. 01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:01.599 Will you help me out? 01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:04.079 Well I let use this letter opener here you go. 01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:04.639 You get it. 01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:07.199 And don't don't don't mess up the the it's bronze. 01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:08.000 It's a nice letter opener. 01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:08.639 You want me to do it? 01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:09.199 Yes please. 01:07:09.360 --> 01:07:11.920 I don't know if that translates very well but I had no trouble opening it at all. 01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:12.960 Uh I didn't hear the sound. 01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:13.679 Do it again. 01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:17.119 Sounds like you making the sound of an elephant on a podcast okay let's put it that way. 01:07:17.199 --> 01:07:19.280 Hey watch yourself all right it's it's it's open. 01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:23.280 All right this question comes from anonymous listener JS in Buffalo New York. 01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:59.519 No idea who that could be congratulations on uh on Stetson's pretrial uh what is something about the podcast that listeners would find surprising Spencer I I don't know aside from the fleet of jets

that we it takes to do this beyond that we you had those before we did the podcast yeah I only dream of destroying the environment that brutally um no I don't I don't at all um you mentioned that but I did get a mailbag question um I was gonna say for later but I can ask you now someone wants to know if you still have the solar panel I'm gonna start calling Robert little Rob is what I'm gonna start doing. 01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:05.199 Wasn't just Robert there are there are multiple multiple people at Battle of the experts who asked me to ask you about it. 01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:10.639 And you know I wasn't gonna do it but you just you just brought it up so go ahead tell everybody what we're talking about here. 01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:51.680 Oh I have but through no fault of my own I have solar panels on my roof that were there when we purchased the house part of a 20 year contract with a company that is now Tesla uh and so I am I therefore have this ridiculous contractual obligation to keep these things on my roof despite the very serious problems with that company and all the other companies associated with the uh a certain not billionaire but trillionaire I'm so sorry that that happened to you through no fault of your own uh you said the company is now Tesla what was it called when you bought the house solar city oh wow and when they when you when they became Tesla um did you try to sell the house? 01:08:52.079 --> 01:09:22.800 Uh yeah yeah that would have been a good idea no we did not try to sell the house then um I did try to I did I have checked what it would cost to get out of this and it was like you know like a lot of year like depending where you're going to school like it'd be a lot of tuition for a year it's like this is nuts the amount of money like I'm very spiteful um but not that spiteful and um so yeah it's it's thank you all for yeah for for for attacking that open wound I appreciate it scale from one to ten how how often do you do you think about it? 01:09:23.039 --> 01:09:24.880 Oh not more than three or four times a week. 01:09:25.119 --> 01:09:25.439 Okay. 01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:28.159 On a scale from one to ten how guilty do you feel about it? 01:09:28.640 --> 01:11:00.800 About a seven yeah eight okay it was Jared and Robert yes sounded right okay back to your answer what would surprise people about the show other than your uh solar panel guilt I think people would be surprised to know that it's purely unscripted you know there's not a script anywhere ever there never is um this is just completely off the top of our heads every time that's what I think you mention a script like every other week I like to keep people guessing you know okay got it how about you what's your answer uh okay number one even though we only use the audio out of respect we always wear pants what okay let me revise that out of respect out of out of respect I always wear pants oh man wow changes everything 58 nine episodes in and wow this is I yeah I guess I was confused okay uh you know we we've never talked about downloads like for real the cities with the the greatest listenership the most downloads on average uh for the show Houston Houston okay I like it that's good houston that's a big city big city are are you gonna give us your opinion on each of these cities if you keep pausing I'm gonna throw something in there yeah of course New York okay and and Philadelphia I mean to be fair Phil does download this like at our request like what is what's our deal with him yes download it like 400 times something like that the the the podcast service we use is very specific because most of the downloads are coming from Broad Street. 01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:11.119 Oh okay yeah yeah yeah wow okay um yeah that's weird I always had Stetson higher on the list but um uh St. 01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:13.680 Pete Florida but you know what do I know? 01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:20.079 Um any any other surprising things about the show people want to know um sometimes we go on too long and just should end. 01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:23.840 That's not surprising to anybody thanks everybody for listening. 01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:27.520 Good luck to everyone competing this week and we will see you for episode 159. 01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:34.800 See you folks unscripted Direct is a production of Justin and Spencer we're mixed and edited by the Sam Chase. 01:11:34.880 --> 01:11:52.800 If you're not on the lister but want to get our blast email each episode sign up at www.unscripteddirect.com follow us on social media as follows Instagram we're at unscripteddirect facebook it's facebook.com slash unscripted direct and twitter is at unscripted dx