התמלול המלא של Episode 156 - "Was there more flashing than you expected?"

San Francisco coffee shops charge for Wi-Fi. 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:54.159 That doesn't happen here in Los Angeles. 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:55.120 SoCal. 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:55.599 Uh-huh. 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:56.959 Yeah, NorCal, great. 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:00.560 Uh so I went to the public library and it was lovely and uh got my work done. 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:02.560 That's that is so Justin of you. 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.319 Uh, and I'm glad that it worked out. 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:05.840 And sorry I wasn't a better host. 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:06.879 You were a great host. 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:08.319 We went to a delicious dinner. 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:13.759 Uh and it was sort of the opposite of a Spencer meal because I think it was food first, vibe second, right? 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:15.680 Like the vibes are fine, but food was amazing. 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:16.159 Yeah. 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:20.560 Uh one of the Burma superstar offshoots, B Star, cleverly named. 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:22.240 Um and it is excellent. 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:26.000 I've always really liked it, but I I always just attributed that to how it felt while I was there. 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:28.319 But maybe that was my stomach talking, you know, or my mouth. 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:29.199 I think so. 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:31.599 Uh and then afterwards, obviously I stay with you guys. 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:37.280 I've got to brag about Spencer for a second because I heard about the Tuesday challenge in the show, but then I actually got to see it. 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:40.719 His garage is basically a Home Depot with a car. 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:46.960 And on the wall are like patches for all the challenges that he and the kids have completed. 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:52.400 Like each one like with a uh a drawing of what the challenge is about, the name of the challenge, the date. 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:54.800 Uh, when they're in other countries, they're different colors. 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:57.759 Uh so we've got like international Tuesday challenges. 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:01.280 Uh like I think one of them is like the Marte's challenge. 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:03.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:04.719 This is what I love. 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:06.000 I love doing it. 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:07.199 And yeah, yeah. 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:08.400 I'm glad you got to see it. 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:08.719 Yeah. 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:12.960 For our our our uh less lingual uh listeners, that's Tuesday. 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:14.400 Marte's is Tuesday. 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:15.919 Oh Marte's right. 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:16.560 Yes, yeah, yeah. 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:17.439 You weren't talking to me. 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:18.000 That's good. 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:19.599 Um you missed the Tuesday challenge. 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:22.080 Well, we had to push it back till Wednesday, a rare exception. 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:23.280 You missed it, but it was fun. 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:27.439 We're making uh towers out of toothpicks and seeing what their specific strength was. 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:31.520 That is how much their mass was versus how much mass they could hold before collapsing. 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:32.080 Very interesting. 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:32.639 I love it. 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:33.439 Yeah, good to add. 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:34.240 What a good dad. 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:35.039 Thank you. 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:36.000 It's very sweet of you. 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:39.360 And you know what happened to those little toothpick structures when we put the weight on them? 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.000 I do. 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:43.520 Oh. 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:50.000 Let's do the break. 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:51.599 Uh this week, oh, let's see. 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:53.120 We had, oh yes, flash trials. 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:54.080 I was quite familiar with it. 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:56.560 Getting to hang out at jams over the weekend here in San Francisco. 00:03:56.719 --> 00:04:00.319 Let's dole out some awards, or at least announce they had been previously doled out. 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:02.960 Professionalism was won by UCLA. 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:07.280 Our semifinalist were Chapman, new to the competition in South Carolina. 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:10.800 Finalist was Drexel and winner, UCLA. 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.560 Wow, they get both professionalism and the first place trophy. 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:16.639 It was well deserved, and it was a lot of fun having everybody here. 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.360 Congratulations, Justin, and to your fantastic team. 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:20.800 Thank you for hosting us. 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:32.000 I've gotten to talk to students after competitions, and of course, my students were exuberant about the result, but I've never heard students gush about how much they learned and how it was transformative the way my students did for this. 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:42.240 I think the flash trials uh i is is unique and unparalleled in the kind of uh training it requires because they just have to be ready for anything. 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.360 Um and I'm really excited for what this means for the rest of the year. 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:46.319 So thank you for hosting this. 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.040 Yeah, I always admire the folks who do four flash trials in two days or six in two days in three days. 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:52.639 I'm like, this is crazy. 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:59.040 And I I you know I I've not done that many in such a condensed time myself, but I suspect if I did, I would improve my skills. 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:02.319 All right, we finish talking about one tournament and we turn to another. 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:11.040 Indeed, it's time for Battle, Battle of the Experts, where Justin, you wanted to preview this tournament uh in a somewhat unique way, I think. 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:11.600

Yeah. 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:15.360 So the tournament is hosted by Drexel and their director, Phil Pascarello. 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.879 We thought, what if we don't invite Phil to the preview? 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:20.399 What could go wrong? 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:21.199 What could go right? 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:22.000 Who knows? 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:23.279 Have a listen. 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:31.199 We welcome back to the show three of my favorite people in the community. 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:32.720 Brett Bain from South Carolina. 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:33.519 Brett, welcome back. 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:34.079 Welcome. 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:35.199 I got I got to go first. 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:35.680 Awesome. 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:36.000 Thank you. 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:37.920 Kate Donahue from Stetson. 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:38.160 Hi. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.519 And Cornerstone Award winner, Robert Little from Baylor. 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:42.639 I mean, I got to go last. 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.040 I don't know what that says, but nice to be back. 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:46.639 It says you're the cornerstone. 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:46.959 Exactly. 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:52.000 We thought it'd be fun to preview Drexel's Battle of the Experts without their director, Phil Pascarello. 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:57.040 Uh, why were you guys so uh willing to participate, not just with Phil, but without him? 00:05:57.279 --> 00:05:59.360 I mean, the without him part is the critical part. 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:01.519 I would not have come if I had to talk to Phil about this. 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:07.839 So the any opportunity to talk bad about Phil or about Phil, period, behind his back is really what I sport. 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.879 I go to battle to see Jess, and I'm so excited to see to see Jess. 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.040 So, you know, it's okay that Phil's not here. 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.519 And I go to battle for the Tom Klein statue. 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.560 So uh Brett, you're still in San Francisco, I think, right? 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:21.120 I am, yeah. 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:22.160 You can see it behind me actually. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:24.000 Yeah, that is my view this morning. 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.240 That is a beautiful view of the Golden Gate. 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:28.079 Uh it looks like you're outside, actually. 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.920 Yeah, I'm camping in the in the woods above the Golden Gate Bridge this morning. 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:34.079 Uh but no, I am still in San Francisco. 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:35.439 It's uh uh foggy. 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.160 Congrats on congrats on making the break at Flash Trials. 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.360 Our team spaced a couple times, and I heard your students were excellent. 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:42.879 Uh yours were as well. 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.399 Congrats on winning Flash Trials as well as most professional team. 00:06:46.639

--> 00:06:48.959 Well, we it doesn't really count because Cumberland wasn't there. 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:57.120 Well, it's still it's so I think it's it's a reflection on how wonderful your students were to all the other students that were there, and they truly were. 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:57.680 Thank you. 00:06:57.839 --> 00:06:59.519 Uh you traveled with your team, Brett. 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:01.680 How many tournaments do you travel to a year? 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.279 Um, that's a good question. 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:06.560 I'm traveling to five this fall and probably four or five in the spring. 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:07.120 So Ted? 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:09.279 Uh I think that might be the most in the community. 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:11.279 Robert looks disgusted with that figure. 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:12.879 Like his heart, his heart is in pain. 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:16.720 Give him another year or two with Nova and he'll start traveling more. 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:19.519 There's no scenario under which I go to 10 tournaments. 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:21.680 Uh, so that's that's an insane number. 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:23.360 I'm I'm in I'm awestruck by you. 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:28.079 Brett, is your position is your position that people travel more when they have children? 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:29.920 Because I don't think that's true for others. 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:33.199 For the first bit, and then it has to fall off after that. 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:41.040 Then you start doing uh dance and cheerleading and competitive cheerleading and all the school events, and then then you have to you cut it down. 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.399 Um, this is a dumb question uh that that reveals my ignorance. 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.720 What is the difference between cheerleading and competitive cheerleading? 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:47.839 Well, that's a great question. 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.560 My 11-year-old informed me of the difference the other day. 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:55.920 Uh, cheerleading is done through the school, where uh anyone can sign up and try to participate. 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:05.519 Competitive cheerleading is where they suck you dry of all of your income and make you travel to all kinds of places uh regionally and nationally to compete for two and a half minutes. 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:07.519 So that that's the difference between the two. 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:12.399 Which one cheerleading is the stuff they make the documentaries about where you looks crazy? 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:13.600 Which one has points? 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:14.800 I want to do that one. 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:21.600 That's the that's the competitive cheerleading, and you're trying to get uh interestingly, you're trying to get zero. 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.240 You want to hit zero, is what they call it, apparently. 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:26.639 So I that might not go well for you. 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.360 It's like golf or endeavor, Justin. 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.120 It's like golf, you want a low score? 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:39.519 You will well, you want a high score on your on your uh skill sets, but you want to get zero on the errors, and so that's an actual additional score. 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.600 So you're trying to get the lowest error score and the highest uh uh team score. 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:51.360 And yeah, it's like gymnastics in the Olympics, where it's like they have a starting score and then you you know go up and down based on how well you do it. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.840 Yeah, I don't follow it, I don't know it fully, but I just keep getting told they do fine. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:56.960 So okay. 00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:58.720 All right, back to battle the experts. 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.559 Uh Kate, uh speaking of people who coach a lot of teams, how is your fall going? 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:03.519 Uh busy. 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:09.840 I've got four this fall, although I did not travel out to first chair, but I will go up to Philadelphia. 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:16.559 Um, but yeah, so I'm feeling Brett in the in the busyness, although um he will be traveling more than me. 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:18.480 But every everything is good, just just busy. 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:19.679 So what else is new? 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:30.000 Well, the last time you were on the show, it was after you became a tenure-line professor at Stetson, and you'd vowed that you were gonna cut back on the number of teams you coached so you could handle your new teaching and writing responsibilities. 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:38.559 So when you say you're coaching four teams this fall, is that a reduction or is that is that you just breaking your vow and coaching as much as you were before? 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:40.960 Well, I did six last fall. 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.519 So technically it's a reduction. 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:45.919 Um, although I it's a lot. 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.039 I think I've a bit mouth a little bit more than I can do right now. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:59.759 But I luckily um have a very, very wonderful and supportive husband who is very patient with me while I'm I'm not home many nights during the week and on the weekends. 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:02.159 Um, but yeah, so you know it's busy. 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.720 We'll just kind of see how it develops. 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:07.200 But I'm lucky you've got a really, really great team here. 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:15.679 So I thought I thought you were gonna say you you're really lucky to have a a patient, Liz Bowles, who is willing to let you only coach four teams or a slack her. 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:24.000 I know we had a discussion about mom, my slacking off and my um failure to work hard, um, and how I'm really just throwing in the towel. 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.120 And so she's really trying to inspire me to keep going. 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.720 Yeah, well,

uh we should keep countering the season. 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:38.799 Maybe, you know, I'm not one to promote gambling, but you know, maybe we can gamble on does Brett travel to more tournaments or Kate coach more tournaments? 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:39.840 That's a good question. 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:41.120 That's a good question. 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:43.120 Although Brett's a hero, so I don't know. 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:45.279 I'd probably put that money, put that money on Brett. 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:47.679 We gotta get Liz to go to more tournaments. 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:48.320 That's what we need. 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.440 Well, Kate, one of the teams uh you've already coached as a first year. 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:53.519 I had the pleasure of watching your student, Gabriel Louf. 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:55.039 Am I saying his last name right? 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:55.679 Yes. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.559 He was really good and really well trained. 00:10:58.879 --> 00:10:59.440 Thank you. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:01.120 He is absolutely wonderful. 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:02.080 He's just awesome. 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:03.600 Um, really great, really great guy. 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:05.200 He's a three L for us this year. 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.200 So, you know, yeah, I'm I'm coaching him on our Kelly squad um as well. 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:11.279 So I'm looking forward to getting to do that again. 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:12.240 He's just awesome. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:13.039 A pleasure to coach. 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:14.159 Robert, how are you doing? 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:15.440 I'm doing fantastic. 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.879 I feel like a I feel like a loser over here, only coaching two teams this fall. 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.200 So apparently I'm slacking massively. 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:25.840 Uh you you were joined by a very special guest uh for unscripted direct. 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:27.120 Her first time on the show. 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.039 Can we get a camera pan in her direction? 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:29.840 We can indeed. 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:33.679 Little Nova sit over here watching Sesame Street while I do the Zoom call. 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.360 Uh, she's very intrigued by Battle of the Experts, so she's very excited. 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:40.960 But she is a little almost uh five months old. 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.919 So she'll be five months old uh at Friday. 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:46.639 So I believe I saw an animal hanging over her. 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:47.519 What animal is that? 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:53.600 There are several right now, but there's a giraffe and an elephant, and then some kind of little rattle star thing as well. 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:55.200 So we've got multiple things. 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:57.519 She pulled the monkey off, so yeah. 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:00.559 I I only saw elephant, and we're going with elephant. 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:01.039 There you go.

00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:01.759 Works for me. 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:03.039 Uh, how's she doing? 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:04.639 She's doing great, she's fantastic. 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:09.759 So she was um born very premature, so she was in the NICU for a while, but she handled that great. 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:18.480 And since she's come home, she's doing fantastic and all the little baby stuff, and trying to she's rolling over from her stomach and trying to roll over from back, and she's real loud now. 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:20.240 So she was all loud this morning. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.600 So hopefully she'll uh interrupt us at some point and make some noise. 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:26.320 But she's doing fantastic, so we're all very, very happy. 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:28.879 Mom's great, and everything's worked out really, really well. 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:30.960 Early signs, opener or closer? 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:34.320 Um, based on the amount of volume, I'm gonna go with closer. 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:36.399 But it's you know, um either way works for me. 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:40.559 Now, how have you been able to balance fatherhood and in your work at Baylor? 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:41.759 Incredibly poorly. 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:45.600 Um, but uh the funny thing about it is so her mother went back to work. 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:47.440 Mother's a nurse in an oncology clinic. 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:52.559 Her mother went back to work after eight weeks off in the summer, and of course after Top Gun. 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:58.000 Um, and I did not go to Scotland this summer, so I was home for a lot of that as well and trying to get work done. 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:03.039 But since her mother's gone out to work, you know, fortunately these jobs are a blessing. 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.879 Um, so I've been able to stay home a fair amount with her. 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.279 Um, we're gonna, and so I've been with her a lot, which is fantastic and it's really great. 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:12.960 My parents have been here a lot. 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:19.039 Um, so they've come down and watched her some so that I can, when I need to be at class and go watch exercises and stuff like that. 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:22.159 And then frankly, it's just, you know, the same thing. 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:30.240 Every night, mom comes home at 5:30 and I leave and go to the law school and coach, and then I come home at, you know, nine or 10 o'clock at night, and we do it again the next day. 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:36.000 So it's just the joys of adulthood, but I wouldn't have or parenthood, but I wouldn't have any other way. 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:37.200 So very worth it. 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:38.879 But also, I'm very tired. 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:46.960 So uh I'm excited about going to Philadelphia because I may go to bed at nine o'clock at night and wake up uh just in time for the first round the following morning. 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.159

How many tournaments are you? 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.360 You said you're coaching to, I assume it's battle and and tournament champions. 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:52.879 Um, how many are you traveling to? 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:54.320 I'm gonna travel to both of those. 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.840 So her mother's very generous and has allowed me to travel. 00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:59.120 I don't think she's happy about it. 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:01.919 Uh, and she keeps saying things to me like, when are you leaving? 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.279 Um, with this tone of voice that indicates I should not go someplace. 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:10.639 But uh she's been very generous, and uh, my parents will be here for both of those weekends. 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.759 And so I'm very lucky to get to go to both. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:18.720 But um, frankly, you know, uh part of it is just uh who's hosting them and where they are. 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.360 It just kind of didn't want to pass up the opportunity to go. 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:24.399 And and uh I like going so, but just two. 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:25.759 I'm lazy, apparently. 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.879 I gotta do way more, is what I'm learning on this on the Zoom call. 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.000 I think you're just with two overachievers and Brett and Kate. 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:35.600 Uh let's talk about Battle of the Experts without Phil. 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:39.519 Uh Robert and Brett, what do you think makes Phil so bad at fantasy football? 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:53.840 Because this is a person who listens to fantasy football podcasts, prepares for the draft for days, leads the league in transactions, leads the league in horrific and unfair uh trade offers, and yet has never made the playoffs. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.679 How do you explain his failure? 00:14:55.919 --> 00:15:07.759 Um, I would say overactivity is probably the most, I mean, like he's neurotic and crazy and therefore sits around and thinks about it all day long while most of us are just making jokes about it in the uh in the group chat. 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:15.840 Um so I think if you think about too much, especially in a league with 14 teams, if you're you're making that many moves, who are you picking up? 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.000 There's there's nobody worth putting on the team. 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:18.960 So I would say that. 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.360 I also think, frankly, let's not kid ourselves. 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.159 I mean, we've all seen Phil pick NTC teams. 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.639 Um not sure he's good at drafting, is just the evidence that I've seen. 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:35.519 It's just it's just you can prepare and prepare and prepare and study, and it doesn't work in any scenario for him. 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.039 So I mean, maybe you know, the source of the problem may just be Phil. 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:39.840 No, I agree. 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.320 I think he uh he chases players, right? 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:45.360 Like he he doesn't get them before they do things well. 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:53.600 He tries to get them after they do things well, but you know, the players that are that are left on the waivers, uh, you know, they're they're there for a reason. 00:15:53.759 --> 00:16:00.000 So they have one good week and he's like, I'm gonna drop somebody for them, and then they just you know crap the bed. 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:07.039 And the people he dropped, you know, AJ picks up, and then AJ, they do well for AJ because they would have done well for Phil. 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.759 Phil's not a good, you know, buy and hold investor, right? 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.440 He's he's he's day trading on Robinhood, it's not working out well for him. 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:19.840 Um, he was early, he he was he was late to GameStop, is really the way you describe Phil. 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.279 Um he also, you know, his trades. 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:26.559 Have you seen that new Elizabeth Holmes trailer where it's like, why would I deceive you? 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:27.600 I mean, that's his trades. 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.159 He's just looking you in the eye like I wouldn't deceive you. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:35.120 Here are two nickels and a rusty trash can for Lamar Jackson. 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:40.320 And you're for a second, you're like, hey, it's convincing, but then you remember it's Phil and you're like, no, I'm not gonna do that. 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.759 And uh I think that's why he finishes like six and eight every year. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.080 Uh no, he he had that one year at seven and seven. 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:46.879 Let's give him credit. 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:48.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:48.720 Yeah. 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.679 Uh Kate, you are a very successful coach. 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:53.519 You've helped a lot of students improve. 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.799 Can you look into the camera and and give Phil some coaching? 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.080 Um, what would you say to him to help him get better at fantasy football? 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:05.200 Um, so because I'm not in the league, um, I would actually be way worse than Phil. 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:13.920 So like I'm at the bottom of the barrel, but my advice to Phil, having just heard this information, would be have patience, my friend, patience. 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.920 Um, and I'm gonna give him the opposite advice of what I normally do. 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:24.480 Uh normally I really tell students to really be themselves, lean into their authentic selves, don't try to be something you're not. 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.279 Phil, I'm gonna go with the opposite for you here. 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:36.799 And my advice would be just do whatever Brett and Robert are doing, and Justin or really anyone else, maybe take that approach and then see how that goes.

00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:38.720 I mean I pulled it up. 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:43.759 We are a week and a half into this league, and he has twice as many transactions as anybody else in the league. 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.240 He's usually like three or four times by the end of the year. 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:48.640 Like this is yeah, no, I know it's gonna be still like less active. 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.960 Yeah, he has already done eight transactions, and we're only in week two. 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:59.759 No, when I asked you all to join this preview and I said, Hey, we're gonna do it without Phil, I noticed nobody said, Why would we do it without Phil? 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.359 You're just like, I'm in. 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.119 And Robert said, I'm in. 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:07.279 Uh also, uh, will this preview mostly be about which sandwich place is better? 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.119 Yours, maybe mine, or his. 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:12.799 Uh Robert, can you give us the backstory on the sandwich competition? 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:15.200 So I think it was three years ago. 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:21.279 We were sitting at battle and nobody was watching the well, nobody was, I mean, everybody was outside their rounds. 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:22.319 So nobody's watching the round. 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:29.039 And we had a conversation about how I think it was Justin's idea that we should order Italian subs for lunch. 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.400 Not, you know, there was gonna be pizza provided for the students, but let's not eat that. 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:33.839 Let's order Italian subs. 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.119 So Justin has this idea. 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:36.160 We start to talk about it. 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:40.640 Justin picks a place he likes in Philadelphia, says we're gonna order subs from this place. 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:46.240 He orders the subs, and then I guess they hoagies, whatever they're called, and I'm from Texas. 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:54.640 And then Phil comes down, finds out we're doing this, finds out Justin has ordered the sandwiches, and immediately declares, that place sucks. 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:56.160 I'm gonna order better sandwiches. 00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.319 And therefore, he now makes an order of like six more sandwiches. 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:06.400 By the time we're done, I believe we had like 14 sandwiches sitting on the table between like seven people. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.480 In addition to all the food that Drexel was ordering for lunch. 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.559 Yeah, they had pizza and all kinds of food. 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.039 Oh, and I think we're pretty sure we ordered like mozzarella sticks from one of the places and some other things. 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:22.319 Bottom line was an absurd amount of food uh was delivered, all of it very good. 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:25.599 Yeah, some better than others, but all of it very good. 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:38.480 Um, and so since then, every year on the uh the last couple years on the Saturday of battle, we all order Italian sandwiches and sit around and eat them during the fourth round while our kids are duking it out in their various rooms. 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:43.200 So uh it's one of my favorite parts about the tournament, frankly, um, is is that experience. 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:44.480 So that's why I wouldn't miss it. 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:51.599 I I think the problem was though, you know, Justin ordered from a really good Italian sandwich shop. 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.799 And Phil said Jersey Mike's is right down the street. 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:05.920 And he ordered like four Italian BMTs from Jersey Mike's because that's what he thought was like the the sandwich. 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.160 And it wasn't. 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.559 He was it was just their lettuce just in very good. 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:15.920 I thought he was ordering from like I thought he was just gonna order a couple chicken parms from Buka and then put them on some white bread. 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.319 Right, that would make better. 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.720 This is the height of Italian culture is this these chicken parms from Buca. 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.079 Maybe they're sure we can get a cold cut combo from Subway from him. 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:31.440 You guys are being unfair because unlike fantasy football, with the sandwiches, at least he kept it close. 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:32.160 That's fair. 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:39.359 You know, speaking of Phil, I'm not looking to make fun of him, but it did come up this morning um in our in our uh in our chat. 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:43.359 Uh Kate found out for the first time that Phil is a Disney adult. 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:47.200 Kate, uh, do you want to revise any of your opinions about Phil now that you know that? 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:48.799 Um, jury's still out. 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.640 I I I feel like I need to have asked some follow-up questions of him when I'm up in Philly. 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:54.319 Um you you can just ask right now. 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.759 Brett and Robert can answer. 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:56.960 Robert. 00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:58.000 All right, that's fair. 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:02.240 Um my initial questions were how many times a year does he go? 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:05.519 I believe I was informed to four to five. 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:10.240 Um suggest their and and their daughter may or may not be attending. 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:11.599 I'm unclear on that. 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:14.400 Um and then I was curious, like, what is it? 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.400 The Magic Kingdom, is it like Epcot? 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:21.599 I hear it's Ebcot with perhaps a focus on um the Italian, the the you know, the Italian exhibit. 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:23.440 So, you know, all good, all good. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:29.039 Um I have lived in

Florida for week, uh going on eight years now. 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:33.599 Um, and I have yet to I've gone to Disney one time with my nieces. 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:36.640 So I would say that would you say you're a Floridian now? 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.119 I would say I'm a Floridian now, yes. 00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:42.720 Um, but I've only been to Disney once with my nieces. 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:48.240 And so I think Phil is yet again beating me in uh Phil has actually been I didn't expect. 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.400 Phil has been there twice with your nieces. 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:54.079 Now I have a lot more questions. 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:56.960 Uh Brett, anything that that Kate needs to know about it? 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:02.079 Well, I would say Kate doesn't make does it make more sense now why most of Phil's been Battle packets are about kids dying. 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:04.240 Oh my god. 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:07.839 Yes, it it does. 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.079 He has had an inordinate amount of child deaths in his life. 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:12.880 A lot of kids. 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:13.680 A lot of women. 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:15.200 Yeah. 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:16.400 Yeah. 00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:19.200 The look on Robert's face right now. 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:26.240 I thought you were going to say that's why you had a case about a roller coaster. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.279 I didn't know we were uh going to child death. 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.559 Oh my gosh. 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:32.720 Oh man's the real battle. 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:34.000 All right. 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:34.640 Oh my gosh. 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.559 We should probably say something nice about Phil and his outstanding competition. 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.720 Uh so I'll ask each of you what makes battle such a phenomenal competition? 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:43.440 Kate? 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:48.720 Um I'll go with my my classic three things, and yes, I'm holding up the three fingers for the audience. 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:49.359 You did it really. 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:51.599 No, it was really good. 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:51.839 Yeah. 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:52.400 It was great. 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:52.640 Okay. 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.839 Because you you asked if the elbow is high enough, and in person it wouldn't have been, but in on Zoom, you're seated. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.279 And so you actually had right, because when we do training, we do the three-finger training on Zoom and three-finger training in person. 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:04.640 You you nailed it. 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:05.279 All right. 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:12.160 So the three things that I really love about Battle is um, first of all, just getting to see all of you. 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:17.440 I think the camaraderie amongst the the coaches and the directors who are there is very unique and it's really awesome. 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:24.720 Um, two is um I think that the packets are always really well well written and balanced, and I enjoy prepping them. 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.680 And that's thanks to Phil and all the time and effort he puts into it. 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:39.839 And then my third reason, and I'm sorry, Justin, it's not alliterative, but my third fact um is going to be that um I think their woodshed witnesses are always so prepared and really professional. 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.240 And I really like that about the competition. 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.880 So yeah, that's those are my three Robert. 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.920 So the first time I came was three years ago. 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:54.160 Um, I actually lost to Phil in the NTC Picks contest, and part of the deal was I had to come to battle in person if I lost. 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:57.279 And at the time, I guess it was a punishment. 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:00.480 Um, you you guys, the listeners may not believe I lost to him. 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.480 That's hard to fathom given how it's gone. 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:11.200 But uh, and I went and what I discovered is it's probably one of my favorite, if not my favorite tournaments to go to in the year. 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:13.359 Uh, Philadelphia is fantastic. 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.640 It's just such a fun where the school is and where the hotel is. 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:18.480 You can walk around that area of Philadelphia. 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:20.480 It's very walkable, it's very safe. 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:28.799 Um, there's lots of good food for the kids, like different kinds of stuff for us from Texas, especially, like different kinds of food that we don't get a lot of down here. 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.440 Um, so I love that part of it, Philadelphia. 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:35.920 Second, uh, I just think it's a really good, hard competition. 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:37.599 People bring really good teams. 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:41.759 A lot of the students there are going to go to TOC or NCTC later on. 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.000 A lot of them may have already been at first chair. 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:49.839 Like, so you've got some kids here who are really talented, um, really good teams that you might see in the spring as well. 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:56.079 And so I think if you've got a good group of students who need reps against good competitors, it's really good for that. 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:57.839 And I think that's a really unique feature. 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:04.559 I it's so small, you know, it's a smaller tournament, and I think that's really good in terms of the competition. 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.119 Um, and then I'll agree with Kate, I'll echo what she said. 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.799 I just find it to be all the coaches who attend, I think are fun to hang out with. 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:15.200 Um, it's a not a huge group. 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:22.319 You can be in that building in Andrex campus, it's a

beautiful building they have with all the courtrooms in it and where they host it on their own campus. 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:35.039 And it's just a really laid-back, you know, it's a very competitive tournament, but as coaches, I think it's one of those opportunities where we all can all sit around and talk, uh, especially early in the year, about what's going on and what's going to happen and where we're headed. 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:38.400 And so I I think the camaraderie is was one of the best parts about it. 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:46.319 I hate to say too many nice things about Phil, um, but it is an incredibly well-run tournament uh with a great packet and all those things. 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:50.240 The students are prepared, and Phil does a really good job running around like a crazy person. 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:55.359 But honestly, it's for my money, it's been one of my favorite things to coach the last three years. 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.160 And I started coaching it and haven't given it up for reasons. 00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:00.880 So I have nothing but positive things to say about it. 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.279 It is easily one of the best competitions in the country. 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:03.920 Brett? 00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:23.599 Well, Kate and Robert took most of the things I I would have said, but I'll sort of add on to that, which is in keeping it smaller, what Phil has done, which is very hard to do in running a tournament, is to keep a set of teams where uh when you get there, every team has a chance to win it. 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.640 Um it is in the sense of competitiveness. 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:34.880 There is not an off-round, there is not a, oh, you know, that you go to some terms like, well, we should win that one, we we could win that one. 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:49.119 I think a battle, you you know, whatever the draw is going to be, what tomorrow night, Wednesday night, whenever they draw the teams is going, it doesn't really matter because every team you face is gonna beat you or have a good chance of beating you. 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:57.359 And so it it is a level of competition that's hard to replicate in other places unless you get to like you know the break at NTC Nationals. 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:00.160 Like it feels like that kind of tournament. 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:01.279 Um, and that's hard. 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:07.039 He he's fostered that, he's built that, and he is that has become what this comp is. 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.519 And I think it's um it's a great testament to how he built it and how he runs it. 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:18.240 Yeah, I I'm struck by the fact that there's it manages to balance camaraderie and uh competitiveness. 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:24.559 But I was as I was thinking about this in preparation for our conversation, I was making a list of things I thought stood out, and I was like shocked by how many were on there. 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.759 I mean, in

addition to all the things you guys said, it runs on time. 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:29.839 Like that is so rare. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:32.799 I mean, those rounds start when they are scheduled to start. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:35.119 Uh, there are three judges every round. 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:40.559 There's usually more in the playoffs, there's usually seven in the semis and nine in the finals. 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:42.960 There's food at every opportunity, right? 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:48.160 The the the welcome, the uh breakfast, lunch, the parties, all of it. 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:52.559 Um every uh room has the whiteboards, the flip charts, the markers. 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:58.000 He does blow-ups and enlargements for every team, like it's NTC Nationals, live streams the playoffs. 00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:00.000 I mean, it it's really, really well done. 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:01.839 Uh, you guys mentioned the case. 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.079 Kate, you want to tell everybody what this year's case is about? 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:04.640 Sure. 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:08.880 Uh this year's case is about um, so it's a car accident. 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:22.880 Um a young girl, eight-year-old girl was led off a school bus at um her stop, you know, no crosswalk, dark, rainy, and the the driver lets her off, and there's a car approaching, and she ends up getting struck by that car. 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:28.799 Um, and so it's a negligence claim against the bus company, uh, client transportation. 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:45.680 Um and uh there are two potential uh affirmative defenses that can be raised, one against the other driver for comparative negligence, and the other against the child for you know running out into the street and not looking to back toward the bus driver, you know, and what she was supposed to do um getting off the bus. 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:52.000 So um, and those are, you know, what's nice too about it is like the defense can elect some none or all. 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:58.480 Um, and what's nice about it is that you don't you have to plan and you have to adjust to what the other side is doing, uh, which I really enjoy. 00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:02.240 Um that you know, that kind of realistic component to it um, I think is great. 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.400 So that is uh that's a summary of the cases here. 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:06.240 And what's your theme on the plaintiff? 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.759 You'll just have to wait and see, my friend. 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:10.640 All right. 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:12.799 All right, we'll we'll do a little bit of gambling. 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:18.480 Uh so first question I'll ask each of you what percentage of ballots will the plaintiff win in the prelims? 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:18.960 Brett? 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:20.559 I know you've never gambled on anything. 00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:24.240 Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't like to gamble on people's lives. 00:29:24.480 -->

00:29:34.960 Um I think it's going percentage of ballots plaintiff wins is going to be 56.5%. 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:36.480 Wow. 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:41.519 Uh Kate busting open her uh her copy of Breaking Vegas 2 by Robert Little. 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:43.680 Yeah, hold on, let me slip to Page. 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:45.759 Is this actually a signed copy here? 00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:48.079 I just want to say it's signed by Robert. 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:49.519 It's near and dear to my heart. 00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:53.039 I keep it in my office, and whenever I have to reference this type of thing, I break it open. 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:54.640 Lots of good material here. 00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:55.039 Yeah. 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:58.480 Um nobody's ever seen Breaking Vegas one. 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.200 Like, can you imagine the kind of weird stuff in that one? 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.119 You have to be worthy to read the text. 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:03.680 Yeah. 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:07.680 Um gate prediction, plain F percentage in the prelims. 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:10.160 I'm gonna go, it's it's always so even. 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.440 I'm going 5149. 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:13.680 I mean, every time it's it's so tight. 00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:15.359 Phil writes a really good packet. 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:19.200 Um, so I'm going, it's gonna be as close as it can possibly be. 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:20.000 Robert? 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.279 Uh I think it's I think it's a really good case. 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.680 I do think it's balanced, but I'll take I'm gonna middle them. 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:26.640 I'm gonna go 53. 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:28.640 So I'll say 53% for the planner. 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:29.759 I should have clarified. 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:31.279 Are we doing prices right rules? 00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:32.079 Uh no. 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:34.319 Okay, because then Robert should have gotten one, if so. 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:34.880 Right. 00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:37.279 Uh I I will do prices right in the move. 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:39.440 I'll try, I'll try to to to the corner of the market. 00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:42.319 I'll say 50-50, meaning if the defense wins, I get the win. 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:42.799 Yeah. 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:43.200 All right. 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:44.960 One one more gambling question. 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.240 Uh, we heard that teams can elect which affirmative defenses to run. 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:54.880 What is the the line, the gambling line over under for how many teams will blame Caroline, the little girl, when they're on defense? 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:55.759 I'll say one. 00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:56.720 One team will do it. 00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:58.160 Okay, so Baylor is doing it. 00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:58.400 Okay. 00:30:58.640 --> 00:30:59.440 We're not doing it. 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.200 Okay, then two. 00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:08.000 I did spend a fairly significant amount of time um thinking about theme ideas for the Blame Caroline defense. 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:14.160 So I'm not gonna say any of them out loud, but I did have several um for how you blame an eight-year-old girl for her own death. 00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:15.680 But I have to hold on. 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.319 What you mean is you're not gonna say any of them out loud today. 00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:19.279 Yeah, right. 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.799 We may be saying them Friday. 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.200 Well, you've already told some of them to me. 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:24.880 I have said them. 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:26.720 I just I'm not gonna say them here. 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:34.240 Um I will say I had this thought though that I am continually when things like this happen, you go to my trial term, you think no one will do this. 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:35.680 At least one person will do it. 00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:38.559 And I'm excited for that and want to see that. 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:43.039 Uh personally, if I find out it's happening, I may go watch that round because I am intrigued to see how that sounds. 00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:43.920 But I think one. 00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:44.400 Kate. 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.519 I'm gonna second that. 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:46.640 I'm thinking I'm thinking one. 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:47.920 It's gonna be low, real low. 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:48.799 I'm going with one. 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:52.079 If I have to pick another number, I'll go two, but or one and a half, right? 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.000 If can we do actual lines? 00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:54.720 Yeah. 00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.160 So you don't push on two. 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:56.720 I get it. 00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:57.680 What's a push? 00:31:57.759 --> 00:31:58.640 No one knows. 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:03.680 Um, I think one uh I think one will go full on at it. 00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:12.160 I think there will be three or four that soft pedal the we're not saying she's at fault, but but but she goes. 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:14.160 You can assign fault to her if you want. 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.400 I think I think there'll be like three or four that do that. 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:23.599 I mean, the real question is, and this is not to get more good, the real question is will anybody go with she didn't just walk out in the street, she saw that car coming. 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.160 And she had like, you know, that kind of thing. 00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:29.279 I'm saying that hard no, Robert. 00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.039 Like just get real dark with it, you know? 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:31.440 Right. 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.559 Really embrace Phil's child death theme and just go for it. 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:36.400 She had a tough week at Disney. 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:36.880 Yeah. 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:39.119 Oh my god. 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:47.119 I thought that the arguments were gonna be, well, she

shouldn't have, you know, had a dark umbrella on a dark night, but you guys are uh taking it to another level here. 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.400 I will go with zero. 00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:49.519 I'll I'll bet zero. 00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:50.799 You're you're all coaching. 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:59.200 So how much time have y'all spent uh with your own umbrella and jacket combo at the at at your in your practices trying to plan out how you're gonna use the the exhibits? 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:00.640 Brett, zero. 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:01.359 Kate? 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:02.400 Pretty much zero. 00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:12.880 I will admit that I brought in one of my like zip up black like hoodie sweatshirts to see initially like if we were going to use it, never did and never got to the umbrella either. 00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:14.400 So we'll see. 00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.960 Most of our practices are just choreography. 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:19.839 So those those items feature pretty prominently. 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:21.920 You're just taking tips from singing in the rain. 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:22.240 Yeah. 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:22.400 Yeah. 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:25.119 I was thinking Mary Poppins, but yeah, either one works. 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:30.319 When you see my my opener spin the umbrella, uh, I want you to know that took a lot of work. 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:31.759 Like she wasn't a natural at it. 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:33.440 We had to we had to really work at it. 00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:37.519 Well, I'm a little superstitious, and it's bad luck to open an umbrella inside. 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:41.039 So I was really wary about you know practicing with it. 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:42.480 Uh that's a good point. 00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:44.480 I had not I had not contemplated that. 00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:45.920 Uh you'll be fine, Justin. 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:46.319 All right. 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:47.680 Last question for each of you. 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:52.079 Can each of you give me a mailbag question that I can ask to Spencer later this episode? 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:52.559 Kate? 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.039 Yes, my mailbag question is who wins in an arm wrestling match? 00:33:57.279 --> 00:33:58.240 You or Spencer? 00:33:58.559 --> 00:33:59.359 I'm writing this down. 00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:00.079 Who wins? 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:01.599 I mean the answer is Spencer. 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:03.440 Uh, who wins an arm wrestling match? 00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:03.759 Great. 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:04.559 You got leverage. 00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:05.440 Robert? 00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:09.280 Um, I really failed at coming up with one of these, but I did think about this one. 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:16.639 So let's assume for a moment that you and Spencer are a mock trial team and you have to compete against two other coaches. 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:21.039 Who what two coaches would you pick to go against in one mock trial round? 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.480 You can use any problem you want. 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:23.360 And why? 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:24.480 Is it for fun? 00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:26.400 Is it because you think you could beat them? 00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:28.880 Is it because you just would be entertained? 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:30.239 Like, what is the reasoning? 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.360 But which two coaches would you most want to go against if you were a team? 00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:34.000 I love that. 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:36.880 I think you have to make them also answer who do they think they would beat. 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.800 I you're you're more than happy to just say we want these two because we think we would crush them. 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:44.079 But that's a bold move when you have a podcast for the community, you know. 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:44.880 But go ahead. 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:45.280 Okay. 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:50.639 Uh, I'm gonna spend all of the time between now and when we record thinking about that question and how I cannot offend people. 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:51.119 Brett? 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.079 I have two, one for Spencer and one for Battle. 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.320 Okay. 00:34:54.480 --> 00:35:02.239 So for Spencer, uh flash trials, was there as much flashing as you expected when you started it, or was there more or less? 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:03.039 Okay, great. 00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:04.960 Was there as much flashing as you expected? 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:05.679 Okay, great. 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:08.079 Who would win in a fight? 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:15.519 100 fill-sized Tom Klein statues or one Tom Klein statue-sized fill. 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:21.679 Okay, 100 fill-sized Tom Klein Tom Klein statues or one Tom Klein statue-sized Phil. 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:26.960 I think for reference, you need to define for the people like number one, how tall is Phil? 00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:30.960 And number two, the absolute gigantic size of the Tom Klein statue. 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.480 Because I think Tom Klein in that statue is like rocking 10 feet tall. 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.440 It it's it's at least I think it's probably 15 feet. 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:42.639 And I'll let you gauge Phil's height publicly on the record during the mailbag session. 00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:48.159 Well, all I know is that when I was getting a tour of the building uh as it was being built, it was part of my job interview. 00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:52.079 I was lucky enough to have a a uh tour given by Tom Klein. 00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.679 And the statue wasn't yet there, and he said to me, This is where the statue's gonna go. 00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.320 It's gonna be seven feet tall, life size. 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:05.440 See, I my favorite part of the statue is still that it's the backside of him faces the door. 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:05.920 Yeah. 00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:10.559 So you walk in, and the first

thing you see is Tom Klein's backside. 00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:15.599 And the thing about that is you have to be real proud of your backside to put negative welcome to the Drexel Law School. 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.079 So I've always found that to be the most impressive part. 00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.239 Uh I'm not gonna make a joke I want to make. 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.599 Uh try to keep my job. 00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:22.639 Thank you guys for joining. 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.159 I can't wait to see you all in a few days. 00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:24.880 Thanks, Describe. 00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:25.440 See you soon. 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:26.000 See you soon. 00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:26.559 Bye everybody. 00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:27.199 Bye, Nova. 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:28.239 Say bye, Nova. 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:29.199 She's asleep now. 00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:30.079 We put her to sleep. 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:31.760 Uh we'll do that. 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:32.559 Well done, guys. 00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:36.400 That's what I think. 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.360 Watch yourself. 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:39.280 You've got some editing to do, my friend. 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:46.960 Dustin, you weren't done just there. 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:49.119 You had others you wanted to talk to this week. 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:53.039 And in fact, you spoke with Donnie Anderson of Ohio Northern, their director for Alex. 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:55.360 Yeah, we've wanted to have Donnie on for a long time. 00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:57.599 Uh, he's an excellent coach, great guy. 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.320 Uh, and I learned recently an excellent judge as well. 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.559 Uh, he was named best judge at first chair. 00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:06.960 Uh my students had him as a judge, and they thought his comments were really supportive and helpful. 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.599 So I was excited to interview Donnie Anderson. 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:16.719 Welcome to Unscripted Direct. 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:18.320 Please introduce yourself to the jury. 00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:19.679 Donnie Anderson. 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:20.960 Thank you for having me. 00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.840 Now I I noticed you introduced yourself as Donnie. 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.519 I've always heard you refer to as Donnie. 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:26.880 Your given name is Donald. 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:28.719 For how long have you gone by Donnie? 00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:33.440 Uh, as soon as I was old enough to realize my father and I had the same name, and I knew it was important. 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:37.039 So I had to go by Donnie, and he went by Andy for whatever reason. 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:37.840 Andy? 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:38.480 Andy. 00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:38.800 Yeah. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.840 Well, it's Anderson. 00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:43.440 Uh, and I think he had a partner whose name was also Don. 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.760 So they had to come up with some sort of distinguishing name, and he went by Andy. 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.880 So I know people have known my father as an attorney for a long time, if I hear them call him Andy. 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:54.239 What do you do for a living? 00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:58.480 I'm currently the trial advocacy director at Ohio Northern University. 00:37:58.719 --> 00:37:59.599 Let's start from the beginning. 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:00.719 Donnie, where'd you grow up? 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:02.000 Uh born and raised in St. 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.920 Petersburg, Florida, and uh went to Stetson College of Law. 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:11.280 I went to grade school and uh high school all all my years at uh in St. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:12.000 Petersburg. 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:13.519 What did your parents do? 00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:15.199 Uh father's an attorney. 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:23.920 I practiced with him for many years, and he just retired about two months ago and uh is now kind of hanging out in St. 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:26.800 Petersburg doing the retirement thing at almost 90 years old. 00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:27.920 He'll be in September. 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:28.960 That's so cool. 00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.840 Uh what kind of law did he do while you were growing up? 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:44.159 Disability, uh injury law, workers' compensation, social security, disability, uh retirement income, a lot of disability type work, uh mostly uh from the plaintiff's end. 00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:49.519 And uh and then my practice, I did most of the personal injury, but I also did criminal defense as well. 00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:50.559 And your mom? 00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:52.000 Uh she worked with him. 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.719 She she passed about 30 years ago. 00:38:54.880 --> 00:39:03.599 And uh she was a she was the manager of the firm, ran of all our rental properties, and uh she was a law librarian, actually. 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:11.920 So, how much of what you saw from your parents influenced your decision to eventually go to law school and become a lawyer doing similar kind of work? 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.880 Well, if you ask a kid, do they want to be like their dad? 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:17.679 When they're a kid, they say no, usually to some degree. 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:22.400 Um, but I I I didn't know necessarily I wanted to be an attorney. 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:24.000 I think I kind of fell into it. 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:27.039 I wasn't really ready to make a decision when I decided to go to law school. 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:29.519 It was kind of one of those, eh, well, family's done it. 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:30.239 It's in the family. 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:32.000 I can't go too far if I do this. 00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:42.880 But uh I started out after I graduated undergrad at University of Tampa, I went to graduate school in South Carolina to get my master's in mental health counseling. 00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:51.440 Uh

brief foray into that and realized that was not where I wanted to go and decided that I was gonna follow the path and and uh that my father did and became an attorney. 00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:54.320 So uh went to Stetson, where he went. 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:58.320 I graduated to 25 years to the day after my father graduated. 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:04.800 And my father was, I didn't know it at the time, but he gave me, he awarded me my diploma when I was uh when I was in law school from there. 00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:05.760 That's so cool. 00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:06.800 Yeah, it was nice. 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.079 It was uh I didn't know, and uh they line you up alphabetically. 00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:12.400 My name is Anderson, so I was up to the front. 00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:16.559 I looked out and saw that my family was there for graduation, but my father was not. 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:17.679 I was upset. 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:22.559 And uh once I looked up and saw that he was giving me my my my diploma, it made it a lot easier. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:26.960 I thought that perhaps he'd missed it or something was wrong, but uh my father did give me my diploma. 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:27.519 It was nice. 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:28.480 That's very cool. 00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:30.559 Uh did you do trial team in law school? 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:31.760 Uh yes, I did. 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:37.119 Um I tried out my first year there and did not make the team. 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.159 Um I thought I was I was wronged, horribly wronged for not being selected. 00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:47.280 Uh and I found out that I was horribly full of myself, which was probably why I I didn't make it. 00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:52.000 Second time I was chosen as a witness and then earned my way onto the team after that. 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:54.159 So uh it worked out that way for me. 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:59.599 How much do you now use that story of failure turned to success when working with your own students? 00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:03.519 My students will say way too much because I tell that story a lot. 00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:08.400 Uh, but everybody starts at a different place, I think, when you're starting this journey. 00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:18.480 And uh we always talk about meeting students where they're at, and where I was at at that time was not at a maturity level to handle the types of things that we require of law students who do this. 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.719 And uh I needed some time to mature. 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:22.480 And I I I took that time. 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:27.679 And fortunately, I listened to some people who were important to me uh to take it seriously, and I did. 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:29.840 So and that's how you know that's how how it works. 00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:34.480 And I tell that story a lot to students, and uh many of them it it works for. 00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:38.559 They realize that they've they've got a lot of

put a lot of effort into this, and that's why we've been successful, at least. 00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.719 Do you think it informs the way you coach? 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.199 Uh the fact that you didn't start out as a superstar. 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:47.039 You didn't start out as immediately the the hand-picked uh golden boy of the team. 00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:49.519 You had to work your way toward toward being really good. 00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:50.480 Absolutely. 00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:55.039 Um, you know, I I thought I was I you know I thought I was God's gift of advocacy. 00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:57.119 I thought everybody needed to hear from me at first. 00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:06.239 And when I realized that wasn't the case and that it was a team sport, uh I now when I watch students try out, um, I'm looking for different things. 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:16.400 It's not necessarily whether they're just they're they're you you gauge, you tend to look for things that indicate that are indicative of maturity in the tryout process a little bit more rather than just performance. 00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:24.559 Because I find that just a performance can be faked and a performance in and of itself can just be prepared and and practiced to the point where it looks flawless. 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:33.679 But uh I do try and find out what level where they at, where where are they at in terms of their maturity level, in terms of letting other people shine as as you know, that's critical. 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:36.960 You gotta let you know both people have to shine when they're competing. 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:41.679 And uh, when you're competing for that spotlight, maturity is is is a critical factor. 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:49.440 So you graduate from Stetson in 1998, and then within a few years, you're at a law firm where you're gonna be for 25 years. 00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:53.039 Uh, but I'm looking at your LinkedIn, and I did a little research here. 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:57.920 Uh I don't know if you're aware of this, um, but there's a well, I'll I'll just read it and then I'll ask you about it. 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:03.360 Your LinkedIn page says that from 2001 to 2025, you worked at the law offices of Donald C. 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:03.840 Anderson. 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:09.920 It also says that for the exact same time period, 2001, 2025, you worked at the law offices of Donald C. 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.119 Anderson the third. 00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:14.400 How did you keep your two employers from finding out about each other, Donnie? 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:19.280 Yeah, that you know, it looked like there was maybe some accusations of double dipping, so I had to be very careful. 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:25.360 So uh no, I you know I I was actually a court appointed for uh several years where I did court-appointed work. 00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:31.760 So we created a separate corporation and another firm so that I could do those separately from the firm. 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.559 Uh it created less con fewer conflicts, I think. 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:39.679 And uh that that's part of what I didn't realize it appeared that way, but I'll I'll be sure to check that out and fix it. 00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.280 Well, I I let's hope that the IRS isn't listening to this podcast. 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:44.159 Yeah, exactly. 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:44.960 I gotcha. 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:47.519 Um so are you Donald C. 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:48.320 Anderson the third? 00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:49.199 Yes, I am. 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:51.199 How come that he didn't go by Donald C. 00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:53.119 Anderson the second then at his firm? 00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.599 Um I don't know. 00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:57.119 I'm gonna ask him that. 00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:03.360 I think we may have asked him that once, but I think his Father was a doctor, and I don't know. 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:05.280 Maybe he just didn't feel honestly. 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:05.840 I don't know. 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:06.960 I really don't know the answer. 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:09.920 I'll ask him and I will see if I can get back to you on that with an update. 00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:10.320 Okay. 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:14.400 But yeah, I'm sure there was some conscious decision that makes very little sense to any of us. 00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:14.960 But no. 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:16.639 Listeners, I will follow up. 00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:18.719 This is what we call investigative journalism. 00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:20.719 Uh are are you still practicing? 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:21.599 Yes, I do. 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:22.320 I still practice. 00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:24.159 I'm selective in the cases that I take. 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.239 Uh mostly federal criminal work. 00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:27.519 I I take that. 00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:31.280 Uh and again, I'm very selective in the criminal cases I still take. 00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:37.199 And um I usually keep anywhere from five to ten cases alive still at any given point. 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:38.719 So that's about what I carry right now. 00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:41.199 What is your favorite courtroom war story? 00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:41.920 Oh wow. 00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:43.599 I wish I'd had time to think of this one. 00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.320 Um you can also pause and think about it before you answer that. 00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:46.800 Yeah. 00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:51.440 No, I think one of my favorite ones was uh one of my one of my clients. 00:44:51.599 --> 00:45:00.159 I I really when you do court-appointed work, you have to have client control and you have to have those hard conversations with them so they don't do things to to hurt themselves in court. 00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:06.159 And I remember one particular uh I told him, I said, look, when you get up, you're asking for the judge to give you mercy. 00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:10.960 We're we're

pleaing open and and uh the judge is gonna have a great deal to say in what happens to you. 00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:11.920 So be honest. 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.800 Don't don't try and you know, don't be yesterday, you know. 00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:24.800 And uh at the time the judge went through the colloquy and went through the plea colloquy and said, Are you under the influence of any drugs or alcohol that would affect your ability to understand what's going on here? 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.440 He looked at me, and the moment he looked at me, I knew he was gonna say something that I didn't want him to say. 00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:34.800 But he looked at me and he said, Yes, Your Honor, I smoked a blunt on the way into the courthouse today. 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:42.079 And um, I looked at him kind of shocked, and the judge kind of looked like she was about to laugh, but shocked nonetheless. 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:48.960 Uh, I looked and I said, Well, Judge, you did say to be honest, and he answered the questions truthfully, and I think he did that and tried to make the best of it. 00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:50.480 But that was that was a tough one. 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:58.639 And uh the judge did give him some uh respect for having shown up and and been honest and been candid about it, but she did give him a hard time. 00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:00.239 And uh that was a fun one. 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:05.760 That was a fun, that was a fun day, but points out that you really have to your clients will say anything at any time. 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.079 Uh what was the resolution of the case? 00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:09.679 They put them back on probation. 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:10.960 They put them back on probation. 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:18.239 It was a violation of probation and uh a new law violation, and uh the judge continued his probation based on that. 00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:24.719 So I'm sure I have some more juicy ones, but uh yeah, that one that one's kind of lighthearted, I guess I could talk about openly. 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:30.079 Now, in addition to your practice, you also coached at your alma mater, Stetson, for how many years? 00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:32.239 Uh right after I graduated. 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:40.559 Uh 98 is when I graduated, and I started with uh coaching with Pamela Bell, who is now a coach, I believe, at Liberty. 00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:43.440 And I coached with her the first year after I graduated. 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:47.840 Um, and then I coached nonstop for about 12 or 15 years. 00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:55.840 And uh then I started back up with Judge uh David DeMurs and Susan DeMurs at Stetson, and I worked with them coaching. 00:46:55.920 --> 00:47:03.199 Uh so I've coached my own teams, I've coached with other coaches, and um I've been doing I did that up until about 2021. 00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:05.760 What competition result are you most proud of? 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:14.239 Uh well, recently last year,

I I think we we made the semifinals for Kelly Cup, which was uh I I think it's a very difficult competition. 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:19.199 I thought the level of of of competition was out that was really outstanding. 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:23.920 Uh we were so excited to get invited from where we started to where we were last year. 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:26.719 And my that I believe last year was my fourth year here. 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:30.800 Um getting to just getting invited was amazing. 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:33.599 Um I think Adam runs a great competition. 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:36.559 And uh when we got there, we were just terrified. 00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:40.559 We didn't want to be in the bottom four because we knew he couldn't come back if we didn't get in the bottom four. 00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:42.320 My students kept asking me, How are we doing? 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:42.880 How are we doing? 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:48.480 And uh I said, look, I think we lost a ballot to Stetson, but I still think if we win, we might be able to make it. 00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:50.800 And we did, and we had it broke perfectly for us. 00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:54.320 The right teams that had to lose, lost by the right amount of ballots. 00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:55.119 You've been there. 00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:58.239 And uh turned out we broke and we made the semifinals. 00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:04.480 We lost uh Coach Weams team and uh from Houston, fantastic, well-coached team, obviously by Judge Weams. 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:16.960 And uh, but I have to tell you, those two students who I had working, they they really they had nobody who were above them who'd had any experience with the competition to kind of clue them in about the competition. 00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:21.840 Uh so we were all kind of flying blind and we didn't know how it was going to work out, and it worked out in our favor. 00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:26.000 I mean, I know it's only a semifinal, but it was it was pretty damn impressive for us. 00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:29.599 It was a it was a meaningful win, a meaningful victory in our sense. 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:33.039 Well, it's not just a semifinal because it's semifinal, one of the hardest competitions. 00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:36.400 Uh for those who haven't done it, Kelly is an Ironman competition. 00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:40.719 Both competitors have to do both sides of the case, and the cases are really robust. 00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:45.840 There's tons of evidentiary issues, the trials are long, um, and you're facing top advocates from other schools. 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:47.039 So congratulations. 00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:49.440 What about your time coaching at Stetson? 00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:50.880 What result are you most proud of? 00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:56.000 Uh I think we were semifinalists against you all at NCTC. 00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:58.320 I think that was one of my favorite competitions. 00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.360 Because again, I think the level of competition there is high. 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:04.719 Uh, probably, I want to say that was in 18, 19. 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.280 You would probably remember better than I did, NCTC. 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:12.239 Uh, but going against one of your teams, uh, it was a loss, a close loss. 00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:16.239 But I felt like our team was very well tested and it was a great problem. 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:26.480 It was a uh hotel liability case where somebody was murdered and uh found in a retention tank or response uh something tanked at a top of a roof of a hotel. 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:30.079 Uh that was like 2021 or 22. 00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:30.880 It was online. 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:31.920 It was the beginning of COVID. 00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:32.320 Yeah. 00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:46.239 But um and so yes, I guess that's why I think I've I'm so proud of that one because it was something where uh myself and Judge DeMurs and Susan de Murs, who coached there and but they've always been partners of mine, uh, we we were trying something we hadn't done. 00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:55.039 And we were we weren't we were doing something new on Zoom and trying to relearn how to coach and and learn how to coach a different way. 00:49:55.199 --> 00:49:58.800 And I think it showed that what we were doing would translate even online. 00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:04.400 And it felt it was kind of a reassuring victory, I guess, for us of of advancing in that competition. 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:09.760 So, but I uh you know, in the end, is the reality is that Stetson, it was expected to advance. 00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:12.000 When I coached, you were expected to advance. 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:15.519 You didn't really want to come home without a trophy, and you never do. 00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:19.679 But when I came to ONU, we had a different, you know, it was a brand new program. 00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:21.280 So the goals were different. 00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:26.719 And uh again, the ones that I'm gonna mention now, there it may not be a win, but they're a win for the program. 00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:28.239 And and when you're new, that's important. 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:30.719 So let's talk about your move to Ohio Northern. 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:34.079 Um Charlie Rose becomes Dean at ONU in 2019. 00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:37.519 In 2022, three years later, you become the director of advocacy. 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:44.880 Obviously, you knew Charlie from Stetson, but how did he convince you to leave Florida where you'd grown up, gone to school, practiced law, coached your entire life? 00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:47.679 How do you convince you to leave Florida for Ada, Ohio? 00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:52.079 Well, I I I mean, it's kind of a a lot of different things. 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:54.800 Um, as you know, Stetson has a lot of coaches. 00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:58.639 Uh they they have a lot of coaches there and they're in very, very good

hands. 00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:04.880 At the time when Charlie called me, uh, I I mean, I respect Charlie, and everywhere he's gone, he's had success. 00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:14.800 So when he reached out to me and asked me if I was interested in in coming up and helping, um, I viewed it as a challenge and something that that I wasn't probably gonna get the opportunity to do at Stetson. 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.400 And it was something that was needed here. 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:18.559 They needed somebody to come up and do it. 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.679 And I had the ability that at that time in my life to do it. 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:28.320 Uh and I didn't want to say no to Charlie because he was uh he offered the job to me and uh we we didn't know what it was. 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:30.880 It was kind of we we didn't have many people returning. 00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:36.559 I think we had six people on that first team, and uh Charlie just signed us up for a bunch of stuff. 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:44.880 And uh we just I I was I he called me on August 1st of that year, and I was in Ohio October or uh August 6th, five days later. 00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:45.199 Wow. 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:46.960 And yeah, I I believed in him. 00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:49.920 I believed what he was saying, and I knew what he brought to Stetson. 00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:54.400 And I felt at that time that Stetson was going to be okay without me. 00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.360 As as you know, I wasn't bigger than the program. 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:05.679 It was I was part of the program, but I knew that what we built at Stetson could be applied elsewhere, and that's what we wanted to try and find out, and I think we did. 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:13.519 I think we at least entering our fifth year, we're competitive where we need to go, and that that is far from where we were when I started. 00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:14.960 So I'm really proud about that. 00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:20.480 And uh, you know, I just thanked Charlie for giving me that opportunity because I wouldn't have had it without him, and I'm I'm very happy. 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:25.280 You mentioned some of the differences between the two programs going from Stetson to ONU. 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.599 What about the culture shock going from St. 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:31.599 Petersburg, Florida in Gulfport and Tampa to Ada, Ohio? 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:34.880 What are the biggest uh culture shocks to that move? 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:43.840 Uh well I I remember, I I mean, I'll I'll backtrack a little bit because when uh when I left Stetson, Liz had Liz Bowles had just finished her first year, and I love Liz. 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:50.159 We I she was just coming as I was going, and and we were all working together, and I wish I'd had more time to work with her. 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:55.599 But I remember talking to her about leaving, and I had to tell her that I was leaving Stetson, which was really sad. 00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:57.599 I remember I think I had to grab tissue. 00:52:57.679 --> 00:52:58.719 I was so upset about it. 00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:01.599 But I remember telling her, and she goes, You're not gonna like it there. 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:02.559 It's cold, Donnie. 00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:03.599 And she reminded me. 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:08.639 And uh I for the first couple months I kept telling her, I'm like, oh, I'm waiting for this, I'm waiting for it. 00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:09.440 It's not so bad. 00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:17.360 Then January comes around, and then February comes around when I'm used to pitchers and catchers reporting in Florida, and that isn't a thing in Ohio. 00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:21.840 And that's when I realized that this was definitely different than where I was at. 00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:23.280 Now you you're very humble. 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:26.960 You're unlikely to want to take personal credit, but the numbers I think speak for themselves. 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:30.800 2019, Ohio Northern earned zero points in Fordham's TCPR. 00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:32.000 2020, zero points. 00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:33.599 2021, zero points. 00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:37.760 But when you arrive in 2022, this the results skyrocket, completely turnaround. 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:41.440 You've earned Fordham points every year, you've been top 40 in Gavel twice. 00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:45.199 You made the break at nine different tournaments, including some big ones, like you mentioned. 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:48.960 You've won a bid to the National Trial League Nationals, won your NTC regional. 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:53.920 What's the biggest thing you changed when you became director of advocacy at Ohio Northern? 00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:56.320 Well, I hadn't even thought about it until you just said it like that. 00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:57.280 Oh, that's a lot. 00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:07.440 Um the the there was a commitment to teamwork and to doing repetitions, even if it doesn't mean that you're even if it means you're not going to get an opportunity to shine. 00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:15.440 Uh what's changed the most was getting people to buy into something that they probably weren't even going to realize was going to help them until a year or two out of law school. 00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:18.400 Uh so I had to be honest with them. 00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:23.440 And I had to I'll I'll tell you what I did primarily was I didn't celebrate nonsense. 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:27.679 I didn't, I didn't have small wins and tell them, hey, you guys were the best. 00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:29.519 I I wasn't dishonest with them. 00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:33.039 I was very candid, like, hey, well, that's a step, but we got a long way to go. 00:54:33.199 --> 00:54:34.320 That was the one thing. 00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:40.480 Uh the other was that they they had to buy in that we couldn't have superstars. 00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:42.960 We could not have

superstars on the team. 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:49.440 Uh if they happened to come and the superstars rose out of what we were building, it would so be it. 00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:52.880 But the goal is is that everybody has to have a chance to shine. 00:54:53.039 --> 00:55:00.480 And that's the only way you get through those preliminary rounds where all the judges get to see everyone and they get to see all of your flaws. 00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:05.679 Uh Charlie always said that uh, you know, you're only as uh as strong as your weakest link. 00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:06.880 And I think that's true. 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:08.400 I think that's so true. 00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:15.760 And if you just have, if you just look for people who are advocates who uh are just amazing from the start, you're gonna have a really small team. 00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:17.760 And that's just not the way the world works. 00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:22.079 When we're out in the real world, we get to meet with whoever we're paired with as a trial partner. 00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:31.760 And I think making sure that they that we had the buy-in from the students early on, that they were gonna do the hard work and we were gonna start the students who showed up, not the ones who were just the best. 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:39.679 Once we implemented that and Charlie allowed me the opportunity to make those hard decisions and tell people who were really good that, yeah, we didn't have a spot for them. 00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:44.400 Uh, that was the biggest opportunity to change in a place that hadn't experienced much success. 00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:50.159 Now, from the outside, you've always come across as a really nice, kind, upbeat, one of the friendliest people in the community. 00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:51.679 Is that your coaching style too? 00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:53.920 Or are you a little more bad cop when you're with students? 00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:56.639 Depends on if you ask my, you're gonna ask my students or not. 00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:01.679 Um, I I tell them that I'm not here to tell them they're awesome all the time. 00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:10.800 I tell them at the beginning that if they want to take trial advocacy and just be told that performing the skill is enough, then that's one class that we have. 00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:14.480 But if they want to do this, that they have to be willing to hear the hard things. 00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:22.079 They have to be willing to hear the fact that they uh are too loud or too soft spoken, or that they come across being unlikable. 00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:27.679 Or you have to talk about things that most people think are very personal attacks, and you have to get over that. 00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:34.880 Uh, so I think depending on the student, some students may think I'm very mean for talking about personal things and how you're being perceived. 00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:40.400 Uh, but I have a feeling in general, most people tell you would tell you that I that I tell you the tough things. 00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:41.920 I don't think I'm mean. 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:46.480 Um, they may sound mean, but I don't think that's I I certainly that's not where I'm coming from. 00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:52.559 But uh yeah, I think my my style outside of the courtroom, I am definitely uh pretty laid back. 00:56:52.719 --> 00:56:55.119 But in our preparation, I'm very detail-oriented. 00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:56.719 I want to make sure we don't miss things. 00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:58.960 So I guess detail-oriented, maybe not mean. 00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:02.000 You said that when you got to ONU, there were six returning students. 00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:03.840 How many students are in the program now? 00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:06.239 Uh I just met with my Chief Justice. 00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:11.199 Um, I think we're at 22, 22 right now, and that's with two L's and three L's. 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.079 Do you do you call the student Chief Justice in person? 00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:15.440 Oh no, I do not. 00:57:15.519 --> 00:57:16.079 I do not. 00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:18.000 Uh I don't think she'd want me to. 00:57:18.159 --> 00:57:32.079 But uh yeah, she's I I've been very fortunate that every year I've been lucky enough to have a uh mock chief justice of in the who's taken that position, uh, who's just tolerated my I I'm kind of I have my hands in everything. 00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:36.880 I I kind of coach or have my hands in almost coaching almost all of the competitions in some way. 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:43.119 Uh I felt like um you you have to have somebody like that to help you, otherwise you can't do it all by yourself. 00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:50.559 So my my my chief assistant, my chief justice, whoever we choose every year, I've been fortunate to have them uh do all the things that I don't do very well. 00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:58.159 Which is a more ridiculous name, calling the student who's head of the trial team Chief Justice, or what they do at William and Mary, which is calling them chief counsel? 00:57:58.320 --> 00:57:59.519 Which one's more absurd? 00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:01.119 I gotta say chief justice. 00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:06.480 What we've chosen was uh, you know, I inherited it, and I probably would call it something different if I didn't. 00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:08.719 But uh that decision was made before I was there. 00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:10.000 And um, I don't know. 00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:16.880 Students have a weird way of wanting to keep things that acknowledge their their movement up through the school in terms of uh prestige. 00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:19.280 So uh I'm not sure that's going away anyway. 00:58:19.519 --> 00:58:23.599 If you have suggestions for a better title, no, I think it's pretty I think I I think it's pretty great. 00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:26.000 It but I want to make sure is there a swearing in ceremony? 00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:27.599 Would you like there to be

one? 00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:30.960 Because if if that's important to you, then and it would make it more legitimate. 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:31.920 We could definitely do that. 00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:34.000 Yeah, and to be clear, I don't mean swearing in for them. 00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:38.320 I'm talking about swearing in for you because you know when somebody becomes president, the chief justice swears them in. 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:48.400 I want you I want you to have to put your hand on the book, whether that's the Bible or you know, the the Charlie Rose uh book, or yeah I've got some books, but books and books two. 00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:52.639 Whatever you want to swear in on, I think the chief justice at your school should be doing that. 00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:54.320 Uh well, I will make sure that they do. 00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:55.519 I'm sure they'd love that. 00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:55.920 True. 00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:00.239 So, but there to answer your question, that one of your books is actually in our mock trial room. 00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:00.960 It made it in there. 00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:03.679 I looked and I said, Where the and it's on there. 00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:06.719 So if you got a if you've got somebody who bought it, it may have been our school. 00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:09.280 Um that that could get you in trouble at Ohio Northern. 00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:10.320 Not anymore. 00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:10.960 Okay. 00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:19.199 Uh no, but it's it is funny because I walked in one day and I looked, I was like, I mean, I've read your book, it's a good book. 00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:20.159 And I thank you. 00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:23.199 I saw it and I'm like, that's a really that's they do use it. 00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:30.000 Uh so I I mean, I I think it's it's it it should be flattering to you, but they do think the world of you and your program. 00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:35.280 So uh you know, they love these things, they love this scripted direct unscripted direct, they love it. 00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:36.079 I listened to it. 00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:39.440 Uh when I first got here, I told students about it and they thought I was nuts. 00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:42.239 But uh, and then all of a sudden they start listening to it. 00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.480 And then they hear your name's getting predicted or your school's getting predicted, and they think that's really neat. 00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:49.760 So what you do is it's good, it's good, and it makes people happy. 00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:50.239 Thank you. 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:51.760 Yeah, so thank you for that. 00:59:52.000 --> 01:00:05.199 So I I want to ask you something that I imagine a lot of our listeners are wondering because when we saw over the listserv that uh Charlie was going to Barry back in Florida, where you practiced, where you coached, you know, no, no, not at Barrie, but in Florida. 01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:09.920 I think a lot of people were waiting for the next email, which said that you were gonna follow to to Barry. 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:11.039 And we have we haven't heard that. 01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:14.559 So sorry if I ask, are you gonna stay at Ohio Northern or are you going to Barry? 01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:17.039 No, I'm I'm staying at Ohio Northern. 01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:20.480 Uh I I was asked that by quite a few people, and I was actually surprised. 01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:22.639 Uh looking back on it, maybe I shouldn't have been. 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:30.800 But um Charlie gave me an amazing opportunity here that you know I don't know if we asked both of us, neither of us would know what it was that he was asking us to do. 01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:43.119 Uh but um I think at this stage of my career, it's probably better for me to kind of continue doing what I've been doing here and and make it I I've just got some things that I haven't finished yet. 01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:46.719 And there's some things that I I still want to do within this program. 01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:54.320 Um and uh I you know, following Charlie to Orlando, and I've well, first of all, I don't know that that offer has ever been made. 01:00:54.400 --> 01:00:55.760 It hasn't been as far as I'm concerned. 01:00:55.920 --> 01:01:00.880 But second, I I just I have I have a lot of things I want to still accomplish here at Ohio Northern. 01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:03.039 And uh I have a lot of friends and family. 01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:11.599 I still get to spend some summer and a good amount of summertime over the break with my family and friends in Florida, get to play poker, get to go have some fun. 01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:18.880 Uh, but that usually as long as I make sure that I re-energize myself and juice up my batteries, I'm I'm ready to go do it every year. 01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:30.960 And this is uh we're this this is a program that uh, you know, and you can cut this if you want, obviously, but like this is a rather this is an area of need in terms of geographically for education. 01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:33.760 For uh attorney said, I live in a rather rural area. 01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:39.119 Uh we're just opening up a rural clinic where we've been given a grant to to expand our reach of our school. 01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:44.320 Uh, but it it was something I can do more good here in Ohio than I ever could at St. 01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:46.880 Petersburg, where I'm one of 50 coaches. 01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:49.840 And that's not to slight Stetson because I love my time there. 01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:55.679 They're still my friends, still my very close friends, always very good to me, and they'll always help me whenever I need a hand. 01:01:55.840 --> 01:02:03.679 Uh but at this point, I think I think my skills and the things that I can present, I I can do more of that here than I could at Stetson at the time. 01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:05.360 And uh that's why I'm sticking around. 01:02:05.599 --> 01:02:06.320 Well,

that's great. 01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:09.119 Uh you're obviously doing a really good job, and they are lucky to have you. 01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:10.079 Well, thank you very much. 01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:11.760 So let's turn to some fun stuff. 01:02:11.840 --> 01:02:15.199 Uh, you've taught and and and coached at two different schools. 01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:17.599 So I want to find out which school do you know better? 01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:21.840 We're gonna I'm gonna give you five trivia questions for Stetson and five for Ohio Northern. 01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:22.559 Are you ready? 01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:23.760 Oh, yeah, I guess so. 01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:24.559 Let's give it a shot. 01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:25.519 Which one do you want to do first? 01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:26.800 You want the Stetson questions first? 01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:28.000 The Ohio Northern questions first. 01:02:28.159 --> 01:02:30.239 Are we doing one and are we going back and then we're gonna go to the first one? 01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:33.440 We're gonna do all five, all five of one and then all five of the other. 01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:34.320 Oh, okay. 01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:36.400 Well, let's just go with ONU then. 01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:37.039 Let's start with that. 01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:38.400 That's more recent in my memory. 01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:38.880 Okay. 01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:40.320 Uh we within 10%. 01:02:40.719 --> 01:02:42.719 What is the enrollment at Ohio Northern? 01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:47.280 Our first year starting class starts at approximately 80 or 90 students. 01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:51.199 So how that works out afterwards, I would imagine under 300. 01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.360 So I need an exact number to guess. 01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:55.920 That way I can tell you whether you're within within 10%. 01:02:56.480 --> 01:02:57.519 I gotta give you an exact number. 01:02:57.599 --> 01:02:58.559 That probably makes sense. 01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:00.880 Uh 260. 01:03:01.199 --> 01:03:03.360 Ooh, just outside the top, the the 10%. 01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:06.400 It's 305 according to the Ohio Northern website. 01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:07.840 So just missed it. 01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:08.320 But yeah. 01:03:08.719 --> 01:03:10.000 Yeah, we also have an online program. 01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:11.840 I'm not sure if that counts that too. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.599 So uh not sure. 01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:14.079 All right. 01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:15.519 Nice try, defense attorney. 01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:15.920 It's open. 01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:17.360 Okay. 01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:19.679 Uh, in what year was Ohio Northern founded? 01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:21.519 If you're within 10 years, you get the point. 01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:23.760 Uh the law school or the main school? 01:03:24.559 --> 01:03:24.960 The law school. 01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:25.519 The law school. 01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:25.840 Oh. 01:03:26.320 --> 01:03:27.760 Um wow, I don't even. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:28.960 This is embarrassing. 01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:31.519 Uh 1935. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:32.960 1885. 01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:38.239 It's the second oldest law school in Ohio behind Cincinnati, which was founded shockingly in the 1830s. 01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:38.480 Okay. 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:39.280 Wow, okay. 01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:39.519 Yeah. 01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:40.079 And you know what? 01:03:40.159 --> 01:03:41.840 There's a sign out front that says that. 01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:44.880 So I I really should get dinged twice for not knowing that. 01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:47.519 So once is gonna be enough. 01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:48.480 Uh all right. 01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:51.519 So it's the it's the pedit school of law, right? 01:03:51.679 --> 01:03:54.239 Um who is the pedit that it's named after? 01:03:54.400 --> 01:03:54.960 First name? 01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:56.000 Oh gosh. 01:03:56.159 --> 01:03:57.119 Um wow. 01:03:57.280 --> 01:03:58.800 I'm gonna get fired for this, maybe. 01:03:58.880 --> 01:03:59.599 I don't know. 01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:01.920 Um is it Thomas? 01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:03.280 Uh we're gonna give you the point. 01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:04.000 It's Claude. 01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:04.559 Claude. 01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:06.320 Uh that's that's what we call a pity point. 01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:08.639 Uh yeah, this is this is this is rough. 01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:10.639 Uh I hope he's not part of my endowment. 01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:13.440 Yeah, I hope I hope that Barry application is still open. 01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:14.320 Uh all right. 01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:19.519 Who is the highest ranking person in government in the Ohio government who graduated from Ohio Northern? 01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:20.639 Oh, is it DeWine? 01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:20.800 Yes. 01:04:21.119 --> 01:04:22.239 Mike Dewine, our governor? 01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:22.719 Yes. 01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:23.039 All right. 01:04:23.199 --> 01:04:25.519 So since you got that one, I'm I'm taking back the pity point. 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:27.039 All right, so you you have one point. 01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:29.440 Can you tell me the Ohio Northern mascot? 01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:30.400 Polar bear. 01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:31.119 Yes. 01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:36.159 And for a bonus, uh for half a point, uh, what is the name of the the polar bear mascot? 01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:37.280 This is no colour. 01:04:37.519 --> 01:04:38.079 This is extra credit. 01:04:38.239 --> 01:04:39.039 It's claw dying. 01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:41.280 Oh, wow. 01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:42.559 Okay, well, so no. 01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:45.840 Two points, two points for your own higher northern knowledge. 01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:48.480 All right, we're heading uh heading to Stetson. 01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:51.280 Within 10%, what is the current student enrollment? 01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:53.760 Um 900? 01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:54.559 Correct. 01:04:54.639 --> 01:04:55.360 You were within 10%. 01:04:56.000

--> 01:04:56.239 Wow. 01:04:56.400 --> 01:04:57.840 Uh yep, yep. 01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:00.320 Um all right, so you're one for one. 01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:02.079 What year was Stetson founded? 01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:03.599 I have no clue. 01:05:03.840 --> 01:05:07.519 I'll go with uh let's go 1935. 01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:08.480 1900. 01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:09.440 1900. 01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:10.960 All right. 01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:16.320 In what year did Stetson first rank number one in US news trial advocacy category? 01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:23.119 I would have to say probably in the mid early 90s, late 80s, like 89. 01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:26.079 So what what is your if you're if you're within a year? 01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:27.920 Ooh, 1995. 01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:29.119 Oh, okay. 01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:30.159 Yeah, that makes sense. 01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:32.079 That was right when I started at the law school. 01:05:32.159 --> 01:05:32.639 That's right. 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:33.039 Okay. 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:33.440 Okay. 01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:34.800 Well, maybe that's why. 01:05:35.599 --> 01:05:37.440 You started at the law school, you tried up for the team. 01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:41.760 They're like, if this guy takes two years to make the team, there's gotta be the number one program. 01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:43.840 Absolutely. 01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:44.400 I love that. 01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:45.280 I love that spin. 01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:49.199 All right, so episode 94 of our show, interview Bobby Flowers. 01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:54.320 Where was she standing or sitting when she came up with the idea for Eats in 2004? 01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:58.639 Oh, and I heard this whole thing where was she standing or sitting? 01:05:58.800 --> 01:05:59.280 Yeah, yeah. 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:00.719 Her location. 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:03.199 I want to say, well, what is it? 01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:06.960 Uh I mean, I would assume it's at a bar, to be honest with you. 01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:09.039 So at a you're assuming it's a bar? 01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:10.320 What are you telling us about Bobby? 01:06:10.559 --> 01:06:12.320 Well, no, I've known Bobby, and like that. 01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:13.920 That's probably where we had the conversation. 01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:17.679 Like, I'm trying to think it was probably over cocktails somewhere on the beach. 01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:18.800 That's what I would usually say. 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:19.280 I'm sorry. 01:06:19.360 --> 01:06:20.719 It's at her dining room table. 01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:20.960 Oh. 01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:21.840 Dining room table. 01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:25.599 Well, let's grab the whole part about drinks because I don't want her getting upset with me. 01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:27.119 So uh we'll see. 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:27.599 We'll see. 01:06:27.679 --> 01:06:34.400 Uh but you know, when when when Hamilton talks about the room where it happened for law school trial ad, the room where it

happened is Bobby Flower's dining room table. 01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:34.800 All right. 01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:35.760 Question number five. 01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:38.079 Because I think you've gotten one so far. 01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:38.320 Yeah. 01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:40.719 Okay, you know, you you got the uh the enrollment. 01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:41.119 Okay. 01:06:41.199 --> 01:06:46.320 Um 1984 Stetson alum, Rich McKay, later became the general manager for which NFL team? 01:06:46.639 --> 01:06:48.639 They became the general manager of two teams, from what I remember. 01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:52.960 And Atlanta, Tampa Bay and Atlanta Falcons. 01:06:53.199 --> 01:06:53.519 Okay. 01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:55.360 Uh I think that one's worth extra credit. 01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:57.360 We're going to call it a tie between these two. 01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:00.000 Uh, you know your schools will say equally well. 01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:00.880 I like that. 01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:01.599 That's a good answer. 01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:02.239 I appreciate it. 01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:08.800 When I was when I was chatting with you beforehand, Donnie, you said that um, quote, I still play soccer at my age. 01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:11.280 Uh what does that mean? 01:07:11.599 --> 01:07:25.360 Well, I uh when I I played it in college, I played it in high school, and then uh, you know, I tried to continue to play every year, and then there was always an under 30 or an under such and such, and then it became an over-30 league and an over 40 league. 01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:28.000 And I just haven't found an over 50 league. 01:07:28.159 --> 01:07:38.320 And I'm 55 now, and I play so when I find one, I usually just kind of come in as a sub and try and preserve my knees as best I can. 01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:43.519 But I still like to be able to say I can run up and down the field, and that that's just an ego thing, I'm assuming. 01:07:43.679 --> 01:07:50.159 But uh yeah, I still play, but I I don't necessarily think that I'm a plus contributor to any team that I'm on at this stage. 01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:53.840 So teasing aside, soccer at 55 is impressive. 01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:54.480 Well, thank you. 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:55.199 I appreciate that. 01:07:55.280 --> 01:07:58.000 It's uh like I said, I don't do it well, but I do do it. 01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:00.480 So uh that's that and poker keep me busy. 01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:02.480 So when did you start playing poker? 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:11.280 Uh I always played uh, I mean, growing up around the around the table just playing stud, playing some small penny penny games. 01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:19.520 Uh, but I think right when I started uh right when I started law school, I started playing tournaments at um some of the local card rooms. 01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:21.119 So I don't play cast poker. 01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:27.600 I play mostly tournaments where you buy in a certain amount, a designated amount, and once your chips

are gone, you're out of the tournament. 01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:29.600 That's that that's the style I play. 01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:35.279 So I started playing that right out of law school, right before law school, kind of as a stress reliever. 01:08:35.439 --> 01:08:36.640 And then uh I don't know. 01:08:36.720 --> 01:08:39.279 I just I've just always done it after I graduated. 01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:44.319 It's something that I that gives me great comfort, relief, uh stress relief. 01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:51.600 And I I think it kind of keeps you sharp in terms of keeping your your brain sharp with math and math skills and and kind of understanding human behavior. 01:08:51.760 --> 01:08:53.840 That's that's kind of what what I like about it. 01:08:54.159 --> 01:08:56.000 What is your favorite poker story? 01:08:56.479 --> 01:08:58.560 Um Oh, okay. 01:08:58.720 --> 01:08:59.680 Here's here's a good one. 01:08:59.840 --> 01:09:02.640 Where we had there was about five of us left in a poker tournament. 01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:05.359 There was about, I think, two or three hundred entries. 01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:07.439 And what what what year is this? 01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:13.600 Uh I want to say 2010, 2000, 15, 16 years ago. 01:09:13.760 --> 01:09:15.199 And were you were you playing? 01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:16.079 I was playing in St. 01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:17.199 Petersburg, Florida. 01:09:17.359 --> 01:09:19.359 Uh uh, it was then called Derby Lane. 01:09:19.439 --> 01:09:20.640 I think it's called Wind Derby now. 01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:21.680 It's a dog track. 01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:26.000 Uh, but it was a tournament and the the prize pool was was pretty decent. 01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:42.720 And usually once you get toward the end of a tournament, if the once the blinds get really high and it and there's not much uh action and everybody's just kind of pushing all of their chips in every hand, uh people start talking about making a deal and making a deal where we split the prize pool up four or five ways, we call it a chop. 01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:48.399 Uh depending on whether whether it's a good deal or not for me with based on how many chips I have, I'll consider it. 01:09:48.640 --> 01:09:55.439 Uh one player in particular looked and said, I'm not chopping with any of you guys because I'm better than every one of you. 01:09:55.600 --> 01:09:56.159 That's what he said. 01:09:56.239 --> 01:09:57.840 He just said because I'm better than all of you. 01:09:58.319 --> 01:09:59.840 And and you've played poker before. 01:09:59.920 --> 01:10:02.239 There's skill, there's a lot of luck involved, too. 01:10:02.399 --> 01:10:13.119 Uh and for him to say that, it looked, and every one of us just looked one at each other at the table and we're just like, we're just gonna raise this guy every time, whenever he's in the hand, because he was such a jerk. 01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:15.840 Uh and it was just nobody spoke about it. 01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:20.560 We just collectively kind of looked at each other and we knew what we did, and we we busted him out. 01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:31.359 We kind of collaborated and uh colluded and all those things you're not supposed to do, but we kind of felt the ends justified the means, and we busted him out, and then we all chopped the moment he was busted from the tournament. 01:10:31.520 --> 01:10:32.720 So we all agreed to it. 01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:36.880 And now it was a uh a humbling lesson for the other individual, I imagine, hopefully. 01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:37.680 That's amazing. 01:10:37.760 --> 01:10:43.279 I mean, even if he were the best player, like when you're at that at that stage of the tournament, it's so much luck involved. 01:10:43.520 --> 01:10:43.680 Yeah. 01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:47.600 So and to say I'm not doing it, I would, but I'm better than all of you. 01:10:47.920 --> 01:10:50.399 I mean, you're not winning friends and influencing people that way. 01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:53.119 Well, that I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm glad that was the result. 01:10:53.199 --> 01:10:56.239 Uh, what is the most you've ever won uh at one tournament? 01:10:56.479 --> 01:11:00.880 I think my highest cash is like 12 or 13,000 in a tournament, something like that. 01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:01.600 Ballpark. 01:11:02.239 --> 01:11:04.800 I well, I play lower stakes, my buy-ins and tournaments. 01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:06.960 I play like 100, 200 buy-ins. 01:11:07.199 --> 01:11:13.600 Um, you know, the tournaments you see on TV, like uh World Series of Poker, those are you know$5,000,$10,000 buy-in tournaments. 01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:16.239 So um I I mean I've had decent results. 01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:16.880 It's been fun. 01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:20.560 I don't consider myself a pro, but I've made a good amount of money over the years at it. 01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:23.680 And I uh again, it's just such a relaxing thing for me. 01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:28.399 It makes me feel it gets my mind off of what we do here, which takes a lot of time and pressure, as you know. 01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:32.960 So for so for those who are listening who who aren't vague into poker, um, he's being very humble. 01:11:33.119 --> 01:11:35.439 The fact is, tournaments are are much harder than cash games. 01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:53.680 I play almost exclusively cash games, and tournaments have almost all of the same challenges of a cash game, uh, same considerations, same strategy, but you also have the tournament considerations the rising blinds, the long hours, uh, the fact that some people are going to be short stacked, and it's just much more complicated, and you have so many more things to think about. 01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:56.000 So the fact that you've been successful there is very impressive. 01:11:56.239 --> 01:12:00.560 I'm very fortunate to have played and uh I I lost a lot of money before I started winning, though. 01:12:00.640 --> 01:12:06.319 That's just you know, anybody that tells you they

didn't they weren't bad at something first, they're they're you we know that they're lying usually. 01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:09.279 So there is a learning curve to everything we've done. 01:12:09.840 --> 01:12:14.720 What do you think is the b the biggest lesson or two to draw from poker into trilad? 01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:21.680 Uh I absolutely I've thought about this all a lot because it's such I I play poker and I teach. 01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:24.000 Those are the two things that I do most in my life. 01:12:24.159 --> 01:12:27.279 And I think about the term of return on investment. 01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:32.800 And a term I always use with my students is is the juice worth the squeeze? 01:12:33.039 --> 01:12:34.560 That's the term I always use. 01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:36.640 And I've used that in a poker term. 01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:41.600 Um, is that what are we gonna get out of this particular witness? 01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:47.359 If we go down this route, let's cost-benefit analysis each piece of information we're gonna get. 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:48.640 What does it give us? 01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:50.079 What does it take away from us? 01:12:50.239 --> 01:12:53.680 What does it let Justin's team beat us up on during rebuttal? 01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:56.399 What do we get to beat up on them about during rebuttal? 01:12:56.560 --> 01:13:04.079 And we do a we do a cost-benefit analysis for every move that we make and creating our cases and how we're gonna respond to the objections you make. 01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:06.000 It's the same thing I do in poker. 01:13:06.159 --> 01:13:14.720 I look and I've I'm raising a certain hand, knowing that if you raise me, I have I already in my head, I know what I'm going to do once you've raised. 01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:20.000 I I have a method of the way I approach it and the certain value that I'm gonna get out of every move. 01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:24.079 Uh, so it's a cost-benefit analysis that I go through in a poker hand. 01:13:24.159 --> 01:13:33.760 It's the same kind of thing I do when I make a decision with regard to what path we're gonna take or what piece of evidence we're gonna try and propound and and what what themes we're gonna use. 01:13:34.079 --> 01:13:46.079 That that's how I I think of it in terms of you you don't wanna put your neck out there if you don't have to, and uh getting as much positive value out of your witnesses without sticking yourself out there and believing yourself vulnerable. 01:13:46.239 --> 01:13:48.720 So uh I think that I think does that kind of answer the question? 01:13:48.960 --> 01:13:50.880 Like the connection there. 01:13:51.199 --> 01:13:55.279 Last question for you what is your favorite thing you're good at and your favorite thing you're not so good at? 01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:59.039 And and it might be soccer and poker, but uh I'm curious. 01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:01.520 Favorite thing you're good at and favorite thing you're not so good at? 01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:06.960 Um favorite thing I'm good at is I'm I'm I'm really decent in crisis situations. 01:14:07.119 --> 01:14:12.720 Like when things are a disaster and things are about falling apart, I I keep my head together very well. 01:14:13.039 --> 01:14:15.760 It's it's some it's one of the things that I'm able to do pretty decent. 01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:25.920 Is that when uh when a when a pro advocate doesn't show up for something, I I we've we know I usually know how to put the pieces back together pretty well and I'm I work well under pressure. 01:14:26.079 --> 01:14:27.920 Um but what do I do? 01:14:28.159 --> 01:14:30.319 What do I enjoy that I'm not good at? 01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:31.039 Singing. 01:14:31.199 --> 01:14:32.640 I like singing, but I'm bad at it. 01:14:32.720 --> 01:14:33.680 I'm really bad at it. 01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:34.720 When do you sing? 01:14:35.039 --> 01:14:37.119 Shower privately, yeah. 01:14:37.359 --> 01:14:38.159 In the car. 01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:39.199 Um yeah. 01:14:39.359 --> 01:14:40.399 But I'm very, very bad at it. 01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:43.920 But I really do like it because I think I'm good for listening to me. 01:14:44.000 --> 01:14:44.640 I think I'm okay. 01:14:44.720 --> 01:14:47.439 But anybody else who's listened, I'm not not at all. 01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:48.960 So have you done karaoke? 01:14:49.359 --> 01:14:49.840 I have. 01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:53.199 Um uh tense you see, things you do for love we do for love. 01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:54.159 That one's a good one. 01:14:54.319 --> 01:14:55.279 I've done that one. 01:14:55.520 --> 01:14:58.880 Um uh some Bon Jovi ones I've I've really liked. 01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:00.079 Some Grateful Dead. 01:15:00.159 --> 01:15:02.239 I've but I'm just I'm very bad at it. 01:15:02.399 --> 01:15:02.720 Very bad. 01:15:02.800 --> 01:15:05.439 But I think in the goal in karaoke to do it poorly. 01:15:05.680 --> 01:15:07.840 I mean, I I don't want to be very good at that. 01:15:08.079 --> 01:15:09.279 Donnie, thank you for coming on. 01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:11.039 And uh it was it was nice to get to know you better. 01:15:11.279 --> 01:15:11.840 Thanks a lot. 01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:13.199 I appreciate it. 01:15:18.800 --> 01:15:20.159 Uh, the book comes up again. 01:15:20.399 --> 01:15:21.840 Championship mock trial. 01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:23.039 It's an excellent book. 01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:28.880 Um, I've never sworn in on it or taken any oaths on it, um, but I have cracked it open. 01:15:28.960 --> 01:15:31.039 Uh sounds like Donnie's done at least that. 01:15:31.279 --> 01:15:32.560 We we appreciate the support. 01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:38.079 We're gonna finish strong with our mailbag, and this time it's a triple mailbag. 01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:40.159 Three different letters. 01:15:40.399 --> 01:15:41.039 Hmm. 01:15:41.199 --> 01:15:42.079 Okay, all right. 01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:42.640 It's great. 01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:43.199 Okay. 01:15:43.359 --> 01:15:46.239

This one comes from KD in Florida. 01:15:46.399 --> 01:15:46.800 Oh, okay. 01:15:46.960 --> 01:15:48.880 Uh self-described Floridian. 01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:49.439 Okay. 01:15:49.920 --> 01:15:53.600 She asks, who would win in an arm wrestling match between you and me? 01:15:53.840 --> 01:15:54.800 Uh I usually do. 01:15:54.960 --> 01:15:57.439 Um we just went before dinner. 01:15:57.920 --> 01:15:59.680 I think I win about 60% of the time. 01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:01.039 Uh that's not true. 01:16:01.119 --> 01:16:02.000 I like I like the story. 01:16:02.159 --> 01:16:05.119 I like the made it up, but you you would win 100% of the time. 01:16:05.840 --> 01:16:06.239 I don't know. 01:16:06.319 --> 01:16:11.920 I think we'd be I think what would happen is we would start arm wrestling and you'd go about three seconds and you just get tired. 01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:13.039 You know, both of us. 01:16:13.119 --> 01:16:14.640 You know, I think that's what happened. 01:16:14.720 --> 01:16:15.920 I mean, I I don't know. 01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:24.000 I I guess somebody wins or loses at that point, but I I think it wouldn't be very it wouldn't be worth the price of its free admission if you're he's humble, but he's strong. 01:16:24.239 --> 01:16:25.039 Spencer wins. 01:16:25.199 --> 01:16:25.439 All right. 01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:27.199 Uh second mailbag question. 01:16:27.359 --> 01:16:28.880 This one comes from Robert Little. 01:16:29.119 --> 01:16:32.159 Uh and I wish I wish I'd thought about this more because it's such a great question. 01:16:32.239 --> 01:16:33.119 Uh oh, sorry. 01:16:33.199 --> 01:16:34.319 It comes from RL. 01:16:35.760 --> 01:16:36.479 In Waco. 01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:37.039 Okay. 01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:41.920 Uh Robert asks, assume we are a mock trial team, you and I, uh Spencer. 01:16:42.079 --> 01:16:43.920 Oh two-person team. 01:16:44.079 --> 01:16:46.079 Who do we want to face and why? 01:16:46.960 --> 01:16:50.399 Oh, I didn't understand the question until you interpreted it. 01:16:50.560 --> 01:16:53.039 Um Wow, that's quite interesting. 01:16:53.279 --> 01:17:00.479 Um, like somebody from the community or or or I think I think yeah, I think which which directors do we want to face? 01:17:00.720 --> 01:17:02.399 Which yeah, I think that that's how the question was. 01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:05.039 Oh man, California style. 01:17:05.199 --> 01:17:07.279 Do you go East Coast versus West Coast? 01:17:07.680 --> 01:17:09.359 Do you take it to the south? 01:17:09.840 --> 01:17:10.880 Do you keep it in state? 01:17:11.119 --> 01:17:18.479 Uh so Spencer, before you answer, I'm gonna propose that since we're a two-person team, uh uh, we should obviously face a two-person team. 01:17:18.560 --> 01:17:21.039 Well, why don't you pick one of the opponents and I'll pick one of the opponents? 01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:21.520 Okay. 01:17:22.159 --> 01:17:22.640 Uh I like it. 01:17:22.720 --> 01:17:25.359 This is easy um because I like to I like domination. 01:17:25.439 --> 01:17:27.359 Uh so Robert Little would be opposite. 01:17:27.439 --> 01:17:33.600 Uh I don't know if he's related to RL uh at Awaco, but it's funny if he is, because he's the guy we would crush. 01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:34.319 Wow. 01:17:34.479 --> 01:17:34.640 Yeah. 01:17:34.880 --> 01:17:35.760 Shots shots fired. 01:17:35.840 --> 01:17:36.079 Yeah. 01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:37.119 Fired. 01:17:37.199 --> 01:17:37.359 Yeah. 01:17:39.279 --> 01:17:39.520 Yeah. 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:44.239 So so I would probably to make it fair, we probably should give him somebody else to have on his team, though, right? 01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:45.439 Yeah, it's a good idea. 01:17:45.680 --> 01:17:55.600 So, first of all, I guess the the premise of the questions if we are a mock trial team, only one person is able to give us eligibility, even though we are graduated from law school, and that's that's Judge Robert. 01:17:55.840 --> 01:18:00.880 So um he probably can't be our opponent because I'm not sure what that would make us eligible. 01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:02.479 Um so that's out. 01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:06.479 I would love to face Stanford, but they don't have a trial out director. 01:18:06.560 --> 01:18:07.920 Um I don't know if they teach it. 01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:12.720 Um so I'm gonna go with Jerry Powell from Baylor for a different reason. 01:18:12.880 --> 01:18:14.239 Uh it'd be good to see him again. 01:18:14.399 --> 01:18:16.079 Oh wow, really hard hitting there. 01:18:16.319 --> 01:18:17.039 Yeah, yeah. 01:18:17.840 --> 01:18:19.039 He'd kick our bots anyway. 01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:20.000 Probably. 01:18:20.399 --> 01:18:21.840 Uh all right. 01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:22.399 Last question. 01:18:22.479 --> 01:18:23.920 This one comes from Brett Bain. 01:18:24.159 --> 01:18:25.920 This one he has he has two questions actually. 01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:27.279 One is is just for you. 01:18:28.399 --> 01:18:32.239 Spencer, was there as much flashing as you expected at flash trials? 01:18:34.079 --> 01:18:37.359 I I I don't even see why this is a joke. 01:18:37.439 --> 01:18:40.560 Um everybody was doing flash trials. 01:18:40.720 --> 01:18:46.079 Um that requires, you know, uh doing uh flashing of flash trials. 01:18:46.239 --> 01:18:49.199 So yeah, if it if there's a joke in there, it's just lost on me. 01:18:49.279 --> 01:18:50.880 Uh there was a lot of it and I expected it. 01:18:51.600 --> 01:18:52.880 Follow-up question from Brett then. 01:18:53.039 --> 01:18:54.720 Where are the recordings of the rounds? 01:18:56.239 --> 01:19:06.319 Okay, uh his other question, he says, since this week is Battle of the Experts, he imagined a battle who would win in a fight 100 fill-sized uh Thomas R. 01:19:06.479 --> 01:19:10.239 Klein statues or one Thomas R. 01:19:10.399 --> 01:19:11.920 Klein statue-sized fill. 01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:18.399 Um uh hundred fill-sized uh Thomas R. 01:19:18.479 --> 01:19:23.039 Klein statues or one uh Thomas R. 01:19:23.119 --> 01:19:25.039 Klein statue-sized fill. 01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:28.720 Um I I I think you always gotta go with the numbers. 01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:30.640 Uh you just have to go with the numbers. 01:19:30.720 --> 01:19:34.960 I mean the first 30 or 40 are gone, you know, but it's the numbers, I think. 01:19:35.680 --> 01:19:39.760 I I I dug a little deeper because at the end of the day, it's a hundred statues. 01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:42.560 They're they're inanimate, and it's one fill. 01:19:42.800 --> 01:19:44.960 So the winner is the statues. 01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:47.680 All right, we we've teased them enough. 01:19:47.760 --> 01:19:50.399 Uh good luck to everybody about all the experts this week. 01:19:50.560 --> 01:19:52.239 Uh, we will see you all next week. 01:19:52.479 --> 01:19:53.359 Good luck, folks. 01:19:54.399 --> 01:19:57.199 Unscripted Direct is a production of Justin and Spencer. 01:19:57.279 --> 01:19:59.279 We're mixed and edited by these damn case. 01:19:59.439 --> 01:20:06.399 If you're not on the lister but want to get our blast email each episode, sign up at www.unscripteddirect.com. 01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:11.039 Follow us on social media as follows Instagram or at unscripted direct. 01:20:11.279 --> 01:20:14.319 Facebook is Facebook.com slash unscripted direct. 01:20:14.479 --> 01:20:16.640 And Twitter is at unscripted.