התמלול המלא של Episode 49: James Britton – How Do You Know If a Senior Hire Will Deliver?

been a great start so far. 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.120 Where do you personally focus in kind of the world? 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:31.920 15, 20 years of focusing on helping partners, managing partners, teams of individuals move from one consultancy to another, typically. 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:36.800 So big four, the Accentures, the Oliver Wymans and Bains of this world. 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:41.040 But more recently, the change in the last four or five years has been the influx of private equity. 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:48.079 So we're doing a lot more work with boutique and mid-sized consultancies that have now an enlarged vision, right? 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.120 In terms of doubling, trebling towards an exit. 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:55.439 There's pretty definitive timelines, and they've got the investment that they haven't had previously. 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.600 So it's it's an exciting time, I think, in in terms of professional services. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:00.319 Excellent. 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:18.160 Well, let's get into that a bit because you've talked to me before about kind of how you think the the market for senior people in professional service is changing quite a bit historically, as you kind of just alluded to lots of that hiring being in the big four accenture places like that, but seeing more move into mid-sized boutique kind of space. 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.480 And as you've said, often with investors behind them. 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:32.959 And I can only assume that the the kind of people that those smaller firms are looking for, that maybe the expectations they have of them might be quite different from from what bigger firms might have historically had in mind. 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:34.639 So I thought maybe we could start there. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:41.439 I'd be keen to understand why you think that kind of shift in where recruitment's happening has happened. 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:50.399 And linked to that, what those, when the smaller, kind of mid-sized boutiques are looking for people, what are they now looking for in the senior people that they hire? 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.000 Yeah, good question. 00:05:52.240 --> 00:06:00.959 I think it's that in is the investment that's come in in recent years from private equity that's changing their ability to hire partners at volume and at scale. 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:21.680 Uh, but then I think clearly linked to that is is sort of the experience they're having, what what they are liking, what they're not liking, and I think and the challenges around that as well, because the the sort of there is a fear factor within a smaller organization that's maybe founder-led, that perhaps is is X big for X etc, X big consulting by heritage. 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:59.439 There is a uh a bit of a fear factor that some um uh partners coming in from larger consultancies don't have the the ability or the appetite to sort of drive the behaviors, whether it's commercially

or internally, or from a project delivery perspective, that actually the boutique consultances and the mid-sized consultancies have placed a lot of value on uh in terms of their partners being active on uh delivery, active on business development, persistent in terms of you know that sort of element of being scrappy and being able to push down doors that aren't open to you if you haven't got the brand behind you. 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:07.439 So there's those sorts of elements that I think are that can create an element of uncertainty or discomfort from someone coming from a big consultant bigger consultancy. 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:18.160 Uh and there's an acutement of the investment as well, with any partner hire for a boutique mid-sized consultancy is a is a tremendously public one, both internally and externally. 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:25.519 And if it doesn't work for whatever reason, then there's a there's a big cost associated with that, both internally and externally. 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:30.480 Uh and then that sort of muscle memory leads into the next potential hire as well. 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.160 So that that cost of failure, I think, is a is a big driver. 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:53.680 So if you were talking to, I guess, a leader of a business that's thinking about making a senior hire into a smaller firm, often those hires kind of, I think, in at least in my experience, you correct me if I'm wrong, but with a kind of view of how are you going to help us grow the business, a very strong BD focus. 00:07:53.920 --> 00:08:01.519 What advice would you give them around what they should be thinking a new recruit needs to be good at? 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:02.639 Good question. 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:11.439 Underlying, I think typically most of the expectations is the is the ability to originate new clients and new client relationships and revenue. 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:14.879 That's typically the number one in terms of expectations, I think. 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:22.639 And therefore, it's probably more about the guidance on on how they test that, how they will how they will get comfort on that. 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:30.879 So whether that's information, whether that's ref referencing, referrals, thinking about mutual clients, they can then test themselves discreetly. 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:39.919 But I think getting an agreement on what level of uh bar they need to see uh uh to get that comfort that those those relationships are real. 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:44.879 Now, whether they can come over with them or not in six, twelve, eighteen months is to be seen. 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:57.759 But but just getting that comfort in the first place, that they're real relationships that they have originated, that they can they could potentially drive in the future, andor a track record of having done it in the past, because that will also give comfort around that decision making as well. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:02.080 And I'm gonna come back to some of that um in a bit on kind of how you test some of those things. 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:06.960 I think it is it it's it it can be hard to test, but I'm sure you've got got good advice on that. 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:14.559 I guess one of the things you have said to me before, though, is that you think that there's a lot of people, sorry, a lot of pressure on people. 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:19.759 They get much more commercial much more quickly when they're looking at those kind of new hires. 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:22.000 So just I give it and give some context for later. 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.919 What do you mean about that kind of commercial focus and the need for that early on? 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:39.519 I think often in a PET size uh or boutique consultancy, they've been founder-led, and often those founders started the business almost by definition by being commercial, so and and originating client relationships driving revenues. 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:47.039 So there's almost that that there is that expectation that any partner coming in thereafter needs to uh needs to have that. 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:55.360 And the investment, I think, relative to revenues of hiring a partner, especially from a bigger consultancy, is significant for that individual. 00:09:55.519 --> 00:10:08.240 But then also in theory, for that person to be successful, you will be hiring around them, uh, you'll be driving activities from a business development, sales and marketing, branding perspective around that person to be successful. 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:17.200 Therefore, uh seeing you know, the ability to see future and predict future revenue, I think, becomes really quite a critical uh part of that business case. 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:26.320 They might be one of 10 partners in the business or one of 20 or what, but there's still an acuteness uh to sort of uh repay that investment over a reasonable timescale. 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.559 And increasingly, if they're p-backed as well, the timescales probably are a bit shorter. 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:41.600 Because if you've got a four, five, six years to exit, or if you're halfway through and you've got two and a half, three years, you want that partner up and running, profitable, driving revenues uh as as quickly as possible. 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:48.080 And I mean, is is commercial to a certain extent kind of almost code for a hunger that needs to come with people? 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:49.120 I think so. 00:10:49.200 --> 00:11:02.240 I think that it's the it's part of that comfort is is the body language and the enthusiasm and the yeah, the the sort of that sort of gut reaction of whether this person enjoys the sort of art of the of the pursuit uh of the sale. 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:03.679 I think that is a big part. 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:09.120 If they feel that energy in the room, if they feel that sort of excitement, then that is half the battle, I think. 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:24.720

People will rightly or wrongly perceive sort of lower energy and uh a sort of less energetic telling of client relationships as sort of yeah, a bit more passive and and that might not work in their in their organization where they won't have the strength of ground typically. 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:31.279 And some you work with lots of like we've talked a bit about the kind of hiring side, you work with lots of people who are on the candidate side of that. 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:50.320 I guess if you're somebody who's making a move from somewhere like an Accenture Big Four into a business of you know 500, 200 people, what's from your perspective and kind of recognizing you're you're outside looking in, what's different about those kind of businesses and kind of what makes a difference and really how different is it, do you think? 00:11:50.559 --> 00:12:00.480 I think it's the intimacy, probably the intimacy of everything, and as much as you will work much more closely, much more consistently, typically with the same individuals. 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:05.039 So there's a there's an intimacy of relationship, I think it's by definition there. 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:11.120 I think you know, bigger consultancies, you can move around a lot more, um, and that has great benefits. 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.559 But but as I say, in a small organization, you're typically working with with more people uh on a more regular basis. 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:23.440 So you need to be able to you know form those long-lasting relationships, build trust on both sides, uh, etc. 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:32.480 Uh there isn't the support, the scale, whether it's from a finance or an operations or sales and marketing, branding, advertising perspective, either. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:38.399 So I think just acknowledging that before you go in, um, what will that mean for my day-to-day? 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.039 What will it mean in terms of how I go to market? 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.480 What will it mean in terms of of how I develop slides for a presentation? 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.480 Uh, all those, all those good things. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:13:09.600 I think going in with eyes open on on that front and almost I think it's self-selecting, the people that will embrace that and uh and see that as an opportunity, I think to do tend to do better than others because you don't have that that surprise element uh of when you join and uh you suddenly have an EA or the car parking space outside isn't uh isn't quite as free. 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:22.480 So when you're I guess approaching people, whether it's kind of people you've known before in your network or or candidates you're reaching out to for the first time, what do you look for in that kind of sense of whether they will meet that? 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:28.559 How do you spot somebody who's gonna thrive in that kind of environment versus somebody who might struggle a bit more? 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:30.240 Body language is a big part, right? 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:44.960 So I know we've got uh video conferences these days, but you do like to meet people face to face and you get more of a sense of whether it's gonna work from both sides and and and and respectfully, I think you can give the advice that it might not work in this case, which I think is just as valuable as yes, it will. 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:48.960 I think career journey, you know, you can you can you can read a lot from that. 00:13:49.279 --> 00:14:02.879 This person is at a big consultancy now, but have they been exposed to and worked in small environments in the past or more more sort of uh environments where it's been uh been there's more been more ambiguity, less structure? 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:06.320 You've had to create that process, create that that rigour. 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.480 I think that's um that's important. 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:12.720 And equally in big consultancies, people do start new practices all the time. 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:18.559 So has this person started something new internally when they've originated new client relationships? 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:22.000 How did they do it from a creativity perspective? 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:23.679 How did they do it from a process perspective? 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.879 That would give you a bit of insight in terms of how flexible they are. 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:33.440 Because I think there's a level of sort of flexibility that you do need in any move and to any organization. 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:40.799 I think particularly when you're going from big to small in averted commas, I think that flexibility needs to be a bit more to the front. 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:48.799 So it's just testing where they've done that in the past, whether it be in other scenarios, even if they've been in big consulting all their life, as it were. 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:51.840 So it's those sorts of discussions I think we take down. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:15:03.440 Come back to what we touched on a bit already around kind of commercial focus and and how you test for that and looking at candidates' track record, I guess, and how that might play into a new role. 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:11.440 So I mean it's quite easy for anybody to tell you a quantity, uh, you know, volume of business that they've sold or kind of originated in a previous role. 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:21.840 So as a recruiter who's trying to help hiring firms make sure they're getting people who really can deliver the goods, how do you properly test somebody's commercial track record? 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:23.600 It's a good question. 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:35.279 I think if let's say 15, 20 years of moving partners in professional services, there is a bit of muscle memory just around that sort of mind map of clients. 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:53.440 So we're typically speaking to people that either work with top-tier banks, top-tier retail consumer companies, healthcare

companies, and and I think from there was an ability to sort of stretch back, even if it's a few years later, to thinking about mutual competitors in those client accounts and stakeholders within those client accounts. 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:57.919 Do you know do they know the CEO, the COO, CFO by name? 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.080 Do they refer to them by name? 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.080 When you ask them about competitors in that client organization, who do they talk about? 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:08.559 It gives you a sense of the intimacy of uh of the relationships. 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:15.039 And again, if you're doing this face-to-face, there is a consultants are, you know, by definition, very smart guys and girls. 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:36.799 But I think that the more you sort of delay something uh in terms of a client relationship, you'll get a sense quite quickly of whether it's their client relationship, whether they originated it, whether they're currently leading it now, if they know the competitive landscape in terms of work they've won, but also work they've lost functionally where they're playing in that organization. 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:44.879 So you can, you know, if you if you press and and and sort of peel away the onion enough, you will get a sense of their comfort about talking about that. 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:50.080 And clearly there's confidentialities, so then you can move on to previous clients uh and do the same thing. 00:16:50.320 --> 00:17:01.200 So that that that is one aspect, I think, just just understanding of the of the of the existing market and and not just taking names as golden in terms of client relationships. 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:04.799 And then given the breadth of ZRG, we're in a very fortunate position. 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:18.559 We've got a large private equity practice, we have a large corporate practice that that appoints C-level leaders for retail and consumer and healthcare and energy and financial services clients in the UK, but but also globally. 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:36.240 So, you know, one call or a couple of emails away is the ability to ask buyers of consulting from those organizations who they buy, why they buy them, which also gives us a level of validation or not uh as well, which can be which can be super helpful. 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:51.519 So if if if if somebody passes the initial sniff test that says, okay, yeah, they they do seem to be capable of originating business, they kind of and then you're into the questions of okay, but will they be able to do the stuff I need them to do and in what volumes and is it big projects or is it little projects? 00:17:51.599 --> 00:18:06.079 I mean, how do you get into I guess the breakdown of like or or do you what people's actual track record is and kind of how do you what are you looking for, I guess, at the next level of of detail in some of that, particularly when you're hiring for a boutique? 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:19.519 Yeah, so it's uh it's it's yeah, it's going into who were the stakeholders for that engagement, who who did you have to meet to for the project to be signed off, who was then the the the sort of daily stakeholder uh in the organization. 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:21.440 Uh, but also how the account's grown. 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:23.359 It's hard to sort of fake that. 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:24.160 How's it grown? 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.640 What sort of functional projects have you delivered? 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.119 And also, you know, your role, confirm that within the within the client organization. 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.400 You know, you're leaving the account, you're sort of number two, number three. 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:36.960 And then the sort of why you question, right? 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:42.799 You had a big consultancy, I'm sure lots of clients will buy the consultancy X, but also why do they buy you? 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:51.920 What is it that you uh give to your client stakeholders that gives them the trust to uh sign off you know multi-million dollar projects? 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:58.960 So that's always a you know an interesting question because again, it's hard to fake the answer to a certain degree. 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:21.519 So it's those, yeah, it's those sorts of aspects I think that quite quickly give you a sense of how well ensconced this individual is into those client organizations, why they're being bought in the market, what that personal brand is that they have beyond the big consulting brand, because that's critical that they have that and can take it forward into a new smaller organization. 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:30.000 And then I guess another aspect to this, certainly when I've been doing hiring in the past, or you know, one of the things you it's okay, you've got a great track record. 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:34.559 Can you then, particularly if it's a kind of sector play or something like that, can you bring those people with you? 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.359 So how do you test whether clients will follow? 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.160 Non-competes notwithstanding and all that kind of stuff. 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:50.480 Yeah, I mean, that's uh that's the sort of number one, and it's it's hard if someone's been at an organization for 15, 20 years because they haven't necessarily they've had to move, you know, a couple of times, then have clients come with you. 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.960 It's always an interesting one to ask because they either have or they haven't. 00:19:53.039 --> 00:20:01.519 And then again, you can you can begin to unpeel that onion as to why and uh uh what sort of timelines and and what sort of stakeholders, etc. 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:11.680 I mean, there's also the opportunity to talk about okay, you've not made a move in 15, 20 years, you've had this client X for 10 years and you've been doing great work with them. 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:13.039 Uh fantastic.

00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:18.799 But uh clients come with you, but client stakeholders also come with you and client stakeholders move. 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:28.400 So is there or what are the two, three examples of client stakeholders within within client X that have left and brought you into new relationships? 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:39.680 Because I think that's also a key aspect of how people are able to track their network, to track their um the client relationships that often leave one client and go to another. 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:56.079 And again, that's quite hard to not hard, not impossible, but it's it's harder to fake that you know the CFO you're working with for five years that valued you, then moved to bank X and uh and didn't use you in their new organization, is is also can be quite telling, depending on the on the circumstances as well. 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:05.279 So you want to kind of see that trajectory of them following their clients and all those client stakeholders, you know, getting them back to work for them once they've moved as well. 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:06.160 No, that's helpful. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:10.240 I guess kind of final question then in the in the slightly commercial end of the thing. 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:23.920 If you're looking for somebody who's gonna bring revenue, you're convinced that they're gonna be able to do that, you've done all the kind of checking, like realistically, how long does it take after somebody's made them made a move for them to really start to have a commercial impact? 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:27.279 If you're looking for pace, what's realistic in terms of that pace? 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:43.920 Yeah, I think again, the circumstance and the size of the organization they're moving to, but I think that the certainly the first six months should be really about bedding into the business, uh, making them uh successful internally, well known internally, integrated culturally internally. 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:52.240 Uh so I think yeah, six months plus uh uh is when we tend to want to see the commercial um side kicking in. 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.440 And I think there's also emphasis on on the organization they're going to. 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:57.119 You know, there will be those off limits. 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.519 So so creating a dual. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:40.079 track in terms of client uh relationships that this individual will be able to bring over themselves but also you know where can we introduce this partner to our existing client relationships where what bids have we got going on where they can come in as a subject matter expert or give us guidance from a topic perspective so they can get involved in winning of of bids they can get involved in those bid teams get to know their colleagues far quicker far better and for their colleagues to see that they're adding value from from the early days I think that's that's there's a there's a key part of that that will make

them uh successful upon integration or not so it's always a two-way street leaving them on their own to you know to to drive revenues by definition will give you less success. 00:22:40.319 --> 00:23:03.279 So so let's talk about this you can segue into the next bit that I kind of wanted to pick up on which is kind of you found somebody good you've hired how do you make that a success and you you've said to me before that you you think there's sometimes a risk of tissue rejection I think was the term you used when a when a senior person moves into particularly into a smaller organization which I thought you know having witnessed a bit of that myself over the years was was a good description. 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:09.359 So what do you mean by tissue rejection in that context and what does a business need to do to stop it happening? 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.119 Yeah sort of the million dollar question. 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:33.599 But I think there's a I think it's tippy around sort of momentum and therefore credibility and how someone can pick up momentum quickly even if they're not bringing in you know existing relationship and porting over to the new organization from day one which which is rare how can they get to know their their colleagues add value and be seen as a credible leader in the business and there's other ways in which they can do that. 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:53.599 I mentioned being involved in bid work but being involved in the growth of existing client relationships as well you absolutely want this first person to focus on their sector and their function and their their expertise but there's always synergies I think if you look hard enough in terms of other other accounts that the the existing accounts that this individual can get can get involved in. 00:23:53.839 --> 00:24:19.440 Are there other you know leadership topics or or or or functional proposition development aspects that this person can get involved in again from day one because it shows that they're getting close to to revenue ultimately close to driving new things close to growing the business close to delivering the value that they've been brought in to do so and then it also has the you know the the added value of getting closer to to colleagues from day one. 00:24:19.519 --> 00:25:09.599 And then that spreads right as soon as they see someone rolling up their sleeves adding value giving new thoughts giving new uh avenues to the market then that that spreads as soon as a few of the of the peers as soon as a few of the the wider teams see that then then again everyone just feels better about the high the individual feels better more confident more knowledgeable about their uh new new company and uh and the propositions they've got the ones they haven't got and the people uh capabilities as well and equally that new organization and the people get a much quicker sense of of the person culturally effort wise energy wise and and as I say ultimately credibility wise

and you you've talked to me about your your view that people need to have you know good two or three what you call I think sponsors in the organization they're joining. 00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:13.279 What do you mean by sponsors in that sense and why do you think that's so important? 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:29.519 So sponsors typically at the senior level but not always but individuals that will you know that will check in weekly monthly with this person especially in the early stages to see how things are going but also for them to discreetly and subtly open doors in the background. 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:44.960 How they look are looking to grow the the sector and functional teams in terms of where they're looking to to develop capability and and go to market. 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:50.480 And I think there's always projects that the the the the new partner coming in can be a part of. 00:25:50.559 --> 00:26:52.000 So I think it's just that in the background making sure that they're meeting the right people having the right conversations internally as much as externally if they're a you know partner and we've done our due diligence and and uh they are the right partner they'll be doing all that from an external perspective but I do think it's the sponsor's responsibility to want to make this person successful internally are they as I say having the right conversations are they exposed to the right areas of development and ambitions have they got a seat at the table with our private equity sponsor because again just those relationships will show that the new partners being valued they're being exposed to the right topics and people and that um yeah and that the more they do that just again it just builds that momentum in terms of uh in terms of discussions and opportunities and uh and credibility and I mean all that sounds eminently sensible and you think people would just do that with anybody they were hiring because they've spent a lot of money and a lot of time to get to the point. 00:26:52.160 --> 00:27:01.200 Well how typical is that sponsorship in your experience and kind of where it doesn't happen kind of why do you think it doesn't? 00:27:01.519 --> 00:28:29.119 It's probably 50-50 I suspect in terms of the the sponsorship being done successfully or done at all or not being done successfully sadly and I in a small mid-sized consultant that there are lots of topics that come up and throw people off course there's the bid work there's the delivery work but then there's also gosh we're growing at 30 35% a year or or higher and that requires that that's a that's the that takes time of of partners etc sometimes conversely you know having spent all this money on hiring a partner it is almost a test uh having done this and you know if they're that good they'll they'll sort of they'll swim on their own as it were which again is not not hugely helpful because I think even the best of us need that that sort of support emotionally as much as uh as in the market etc so yeah that's that's I think that's probably sums up where it doesn't work often it's just that yeah the the the focus can change very quickly in smaller organizations and big organizations so it's really getting that person and that sponsor's buy-in from day one how will this make the sponsor you know how will this person's success make the sponsor successful why are they tied inextricably together in terms of uh both being successful that's probably what it needs to to come down to I think um and if somebody's joined a business and hasn't quite got off to the right start and that happens how do you recognize whether that's kind of I've hired the wrong person or I just haven't supported them properly or something else? 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.440 How do you how do you begin to make that call? 00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:41.839 Yeah it's a tricky one like time ultimately always sort of tells but I think also you know reviewing what have we done to make this person successful have we done everything within our power? 00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.599 Have we introduced them to the right people? 00:28:43.759 --> 00:29:04.319 Have we introduced them to our potentially RP sponsor um have they got involved in a couple of projects to develop either capabilities or property development or or whatever it might be that has got them to build relationships internally who have they built relationships with internally so far and what's it you know what's been the result? 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:46.880 Just doing a bit of a gap analysis I think has this person ultimately had everything that we can give them to make them successful uh and therefore they've not perhaps embraced it and what's the market doing as well their specific market are we seeing anecdotally or otherwise this market spending a lot of money on consulting uh or is it a tricky time and of those pursuits that they are talking to right now you know what what is the potential then from a pipeline perspective how much do we need you know things to change in their favour for suddenly it to be you know a bit of a gold rush and and we've got more work and we need to we need to suddenly hire uh even more people around this person. 00:29:47.039 --> 00:30:04.160 So it's it's a bit of a balancing act and and you know I think the the gut sometimes uh can tell a lot but equally just doing a bit of analysis of of what they have done I think is always useful because A you can spot gaps very quickly and address them but equally this person isn't the only partner we're hiring. 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:15.839 We're gonna hire 10 partners in the next 12 months and if we're consistently not doing X, Y, and Z, then there's a 30% or 40% increased chance that the next 10 won't be as successful as they can be. 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:21.839 So let's address it now and make the the next 10 partners um more successful just as much as this inter. 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:33.200 If we move I guess a little bit into

the private equity side of the of the world you work in, you do a lot of work with investors you're making senior hires into businesses they own. 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:53.119 And I guess whether somebody's considering PE as a potential investment route for their firm or not, I think there's something useful in understanding kind of what external investors look for when they're making senior appointments, given they hire so many people across lots of businesses and and and have lots of kind of variety of expertise. 00:30:53.279 --> 00:31:00.960 So what do you think P investors are generally looking for when they're assessing senior people in professional services firms? 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:44.559 It's a good question because there is a bit of a nuance I think there's definitely a an energy and a speed of thought that kind of needs to be there for their for their senior hires because private equity is an organ a sort of a sector that moves at pace but equally likes the intellectual rigour behind making a decision as well right they hire the best and brightest from the MBBs to do their commercial due diligence and the best and brightest for for the sort of post-merger integration integration support the the best uh strategy consultants for their value creation so that's their sort of expectation I think from a professional services perspective so therefore when they're hiring partners CEOs for those professional services firms they will like to see that sort of replicated I think in in some of the best that they've met in the market. 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:50.720 So I think that's one set of expectations and then there's that speed to to revenue as well which is a key part. 00:31:50.880 --> 00:32:29.519 And increasingly the followership piece I mean I think since COVID the the element of partners bringing teams has been a huge trend in the market I think that's only increased with private equity investment i.e let's bring on a fantastic senior person but actually if they're going to change the dial is there wider capability in terms of team uh that they can bring with them uh quickly because that will accelerate our value creation plan and time is money so if they can they can see people that represent a beyond a great individual a great capability a great business unit a great almost separate PL then that's super exciting to them as well. 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:36.720 And how much emphasis is there on I guess looking for people who worked in a P backed environment before? 00:32:37.200 --> 00:33:10.000 Yeah that's increasingly yeah that gives them a lot of comfort and and you can see that historically with you know the CFOs they hire the CEOs that hire that they hire the COOs that they hire for for all their portfolio companies has this person operated in a private equity backed environment before because it gives them comfort that they understand the reporting lines and the uh the measurements and the KPIs and the pace of change that is required and the the sort of timelines to an exit so yes that is that is also a uh a critical part that gives them that gives them comfort. 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:23.440 And from what you see what what are the main differences between kind of working in a P-backed environment versus being in a a large corporate or a kind of equity partnership like what what what really is different? 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:37.440 There's quite a few things boiled down I think it's the sort of immediacy right that we have a timeline to double or a timeline to treble and that really does focus the mind and some individuals that that's quite that's quite challenging. 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:40.079 But on the flip side we've also now got the investment to go and do it. 00:33:40.240 --> 00:34:03.680 We've got the investment to make inorganic acquisitions that will accelerate that and we've got the ability to pay our partners potentially you know what we need to get then not not necessarily from a cash in year perspective but but in terms of that you know that equity piece that could then be realized that that's increasingly uh attractive and seen as valued in the in the market because priority's been in the space now for a few years. 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:10.079 So there have been exits and people have got paid out so it does mean perhaps more than what it used to in the past. 00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:30.719 But I think it's that speed that nimbleness that is required the ability to pivot as well right we're seeing it with technology at the moment in terms of how it may or may not change consulting but we see it with private equity backed portfolio companies in other sectors and industries that they are typically a bit quicker to pivot in terms of what the market's doing from a demand perspective. 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:39.199 Does our next CEO need to come from our sector might they come from an adjacent sector or a completely different sector? 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:50.480 You know do we need a CEO who is just a sort of athlete in terms of excellence that will that is a track record of uh just growing organizations, uh whether they're professional services or not. 00:34:50.719 --> 00:35:00.639 So I think they're probably yeah need to be a bit more nimble working in a P environment in terms of uh the expectations uh but also the potential as well. 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:02.880 The investment is there for greater potential. 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:08.559 So being open to how you realize that potential is probably I think a key differentiator as well. 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:24.960 So if you were you know having heart to heart with a candidate who's thinking about that, like what would you be saying to them in terms of kind of go for this if you really like X and really don't go for this if you don't like what like kind of how do you help people understand whether that kind of environment's going to be right for them or not? 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:34.079 I think it's uh

it's forward thinking you know and it's giving them that insight into what it will be like and what it has been like for others that have gone on that journey. 00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:38.079 And then then it becomes self-selecting as to whether people embrace that or not. 00:35:38.159 --> 00:36:34.719 So talk about the the speed of change talk about the ambiguity that that can sometimes come with that talk about the you know the hard decisions but the exciting decisions about uh making acquisitions but that that everyone counts and you know and sort of the risk management around that and you know that that it may be a case that two years in the strategy pivots quite significantly and you'd need to focus on new markets and geographies and functions and sectors uh and people the types of people that you're going to be hiring uh may be very different to the ones you've hired in the past and and developed in the past and and had to build relationships in the past as well that it is still consulting and that you have a track record candidate X or Y of doing this and this will be, you know, if you continue on that track and can replicate it, it will be rewarded faster and from a compensation perspective with with a potential exit to a greater degree from that perspective. 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:55.039 And that once you have done that and have that experience it then puts you into a slightly different league in terms of future opportunities because you have then been part of a successfully P-backed professional services firm that that tribled in in three, four years and that will put you in the minority in a good way in terms of in terms of future career prospects. 00:36:55.360 --> 00:37:20.559 And we talked a lot about individuals I guess are there any reflections you might have on not just the hiring of a person for this and a person for that but I guess what investors look for in terms of leadership teams and what goes into those and maybe by extension then if somebody's thinking that investment might be on their horizon somewhere down the line like what should they be thinking about about what what's going to make a good team overall at those most senior levels? 00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:47.199 Ambition is is is a key one right they need to um I think these leadership teams need to all be on side that they're gonna double treble there'll be moments of uncomfortableness and challenges along the way but that the investment is there and and that and that that's exciting for them that you've been around for 10, 15 20 years growing you know single digit percentages but it's gonna it's gonna get it's gonna get more exciting in terms of those growth numbers and it'll bring challenges but also opportunity. 00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:58.800 So I think being on board with that I think is a is a is a key part of the psyche that will then help them to embrace the opportunities but also get through the challenges that will come thereafter. 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:00.880

I suspect that's a that's a big piece. 00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:36.880 And also taking that business you know dare I say up the value chain as well because if they're going to grow and and double in treble in a reasonably short period of time they're going to need to grow into and crack into larger client organizations and they're going to need to have more clients and they're gonna arguably be you know more than the the sum of their parts so there's going to be a you know again having a leadership team that's open to that understanding that they might be part of that journey but they're gonna have to perhaps relinquish certain leadership opportunities to new people coming into the business that that can do that. 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:40.800 But that's okay because they're we're all growing the same pie for the future. 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:49.920 So that yeah I think there's that openness to change openness to embracing the ambition rather than sort of uh fearing fearing it I think is is critical. 00:38:50.239 --> 00:39:00.800 Yeah no and I think and I think being able to do that as a team and you know as an individual that that brings it it can be both why you think it's opposite be kind of unnerving. 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:17.840 So kind of that sense of having each other's backs and feeling you're together as one team and then it's it you are kind of although you might have different views on how you get to the destination you're all kind of working the same place goes a long way in helping the team feel kind of when it particularly in the moments when it's a bit harder like they're in it together. 00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:28.320 Just one other area I'd like to touch on before we before we finish and that's you know there's obviously a lot of talk you know about what's going on in consulting generally particularly around AI and technology. 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:47.920 I really you know don't want to have just a kind of another generic AI conversation, but from where you sit doing so much hiring, what are you seeing in terms of what firms are hiring for and what investors and clients are valuing and how that's changing given what's kind of the flux that seems to be going on in the market? 00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:57.679 I think from a client perspective there is genuinely questioning going on in terms of do we need large consulting teams to deliver uh to deliver the projects that you have been. 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:12.320 So that's putting pressure on on on the consultancies to I think in a good way be creative about how they use AI and other technologies to deliver those projects for one, uh so that you can have leaner teams but um but still deliver the same outcomes. 00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:48.480 And I think also from a you know joint venture perspective it's interesting that there's a there's potentially a thought in the market that the sort of you know huge technology transformation programs that that maybe a Deloitte SAP uh IBM or or Accenture could only do in the past that actually you know smaller consultancies will be able to do in the future by embracing AI in the right way and having the right sort of joint ventures with some of the uh hypergrowth organizations that can help you on the on the implementation side so that's an interesting dynamic uh I think is is sort of shifting how consultants are are operating in the market. 00:40:48.639 --> 00:41:29.840 I mean there's still you know lots of junior hiring going on uh the the sort of view that it's the end of consulting I think was one we jumped to pretty quickly uh the reality is consultants do great in times of ambiguity COVID and uh various wars shocking you know energy supply chains and now this thing called AI whenever there's uh something that is new that is not fully understood in terms of how we embrace something how we change something then actually consulting demand tends to go up rather than down how that consulting delivery system I think is and then the size of the projects and the value of the projects and how you pay for those projects I think is is under question. 00:41:30.079 --> 00:42:05.360 I think increasingly there's a lot of um sort of fees at risk uh new model that I think clients are are demanding and some consultancies are brilliantly placed to embrace that some uh less so you know some embraced it and then sort of uh got rid of it you know McKinsey being quite a uh high profile example of that so constant change right and um I think if we look at consulting over the last 15-20 years and then beyond there's there's always these cycles of uncertainty but it's still a pretty buoyant market uh from from what I can tell it's just the need to be agile I think is is more important than ever. 00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:32.800 And I mean you said still as a junior hiring going on and you know the the death of juniors in consulting may or may not be on the horizon depending on who you talk to on any given day but like what what are you seeing there actually in terms of what people are looking terms in terms looking for in terms or hiring against in terms of grade mix seniority experience and where are there any patterns that are emerging about kind of where where that junior senior debate is going? 00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:39.280 Yeah I think you know the typical triangle uh in terms of the leverage model you know is probably gone. 00:42:39.440 --> 00:43:12.239 And I think the nature of junior consulting is changing uh you know whether it be a Bain or a Deloitte the the focus on individuals that are sort of AI ready at the junior level or or you know open to embracing uh new technologies uh it's not brand new but it's certainly more acute now I think in terms of the the junior um staff that they uh that they hire so that's that's almost a that's almost a given now I think whereas it may have been a bonus in the uh in the past so that's that's a key difference. 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:33.440 It's I mean it's yeah

it's almost a bit more diamond-esque in terms of the delivery teams and I think that will that will continue to develop but certainly that's yeah I think the old triangle pyramid is has has gone for now I think yeah I guess another thing about kind of so does it surprise me to see the big expectation on kind of AI tech skills at the more junior levels. 00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:43.119 What are you seeing if at all that people are wanting senior people to have in terms of kind of AI capability and and broader technology capability? 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:48.960 Yeah I mean I think arguably uh just as acute at the sort of at the partner level. 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:50.480 So what are they looking for there? 00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.519 What what does somebody need to be able to demonstrate in this day and age? 00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:59.760 Yeah I think it's the demo it's the ability to show where they have reacted to that change in client expectations. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:07.199 So where have they delivered projects, large projects, that perhaps took 10 less consultants than they might have done five, six years ago? 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:12.239 What tools did they use to help the delivery team with their efficiency? 00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:17.199 What tools did they use to drive more data insights from their client? 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:24.559 And whether they wouldn't have necessarily done it themselves, but how do they guide that team to go and get the right data, ask the right questions, drive to the right insights? 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:29.599 That's increasingly, increasingly a part of the of the conversation. 00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:33.039 And then where are they guiding clients from an AI perspective? 00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:46.159 Because if they're not guiding clients from an AI perspective, you'd argue that they're perhaps not at the right tables, uh having the right conversations, because it's you know, as we all know, it's a CEO agenda as much as a CIO agenda. 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:48.719 So they're the sorts of expectations, I think. 00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:51.119 And a curiosity, just a general curiosity. 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:57.840 What do they do, you know, at the weekends when they're booking a restaurant or thinking about the next holiday they go on? 00:44:58.000 --> 00:44:59.440 Are they embracing AI? 00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:01.440 Uh are they curious about it? 00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:08.000 It'll give you a sense, I think, of how that person is thinking about the new, whether it's technology or or other things. 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:16.400 I think that that agility is what is what people are looking for at all levels, but but particularly partner level in a in an ever-changing market. 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:31.360 So if you were um if you're giving some advice to I guess a senior candidate who's thinking, Joel where I am, but I'm ready to make a move, and maybe I'm ready for something that's a bit more boutique or maybe something that has a P-backing, just something that's different. 00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:40.159 What few things should they be doing to really position themselves for entering the market and make themselves attractive as candidates? 00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:48.079 I mean, to a certain degree, they they sort of are who they are in terms of track record, but I think sometimes it's the informal piece. 00:45:48.159 --> 00:46:15.840 Sometimes it's uh, okay, well, who do you know within your own network that's gone that journey and just grab a coffee with them, you know, pick up the phone to them and ask the question because they'll soon tell you what's in all the good and the bad and the ugly in terms of uh what they left lost and left uh you know, were left behind, if you like, but also what they've picked up, what they've been able to embrace, what it's done from a lifestyle perspective, what it's done from a uh their own career development perspective. 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:30.400 I think, and that will be, you know, probably the most intimate, powerful support system or otherwise that you'll get because there'll be someone that you know, someone that you had a similar background to, someone who left a similar company to you and is about and has gone on that journey. 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:34.960 I think that would probably be my um my first piece of uh guidance for sure. 00:46:35.199 --> 00:47:07.440 And I guess if you were looking, if you flipped over and looked at the hiring side of that and we're thinking, yeah, somebody's thinking about talking to you about I need to hire somebody at a senior level, whether it's a new chief exec or a new kind of somebody to take over kind of the range for me as as as founder wanting to transition or somebody to drive sales, what before they kind of pressed go on a recruitment process and a commitment to or a commitment to hire, maybe they've been through, like what are the things they need to have really thought about before they decide, yeah, I'm gonna hire that kind of senior level. 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:10.800 Yeah, I think think about the last five senior hires they made, right? 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.320 And whether at partner level or just below, what journey did they have? 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.760 Uh, which ones were successful? 00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:17.679 Was there any consistency in that? 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:19.840 What did we do to make them successful? 00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:24.320 I think that will tell you a lot about do you or then your sort of future partner hiring. 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:34.159 And really think about the their differentiation, what what differentiates them to various other P-backed mid-sized boutique consultancies in terms of being able to attract this individual? 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:45.280 Because if you can if you can nail that value proposition, suddenly you've got a lot more options to hire that partner than you would have done, you know, with a with a

narrower value proposition to the market. 00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:52.800 So really do think that through because then that will open doors, but it'll also keep doors shut for you if it's not quite hitting the mark. 00:47:53.039 --> 00:48:00.480 What can our private equity sponsor do that that can add value as well here uh in terms of introductions, wider portfolio, etc.? 00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:06.639 There'd be the sort of things that that are critical, I think, to hiring and giving yourselves the opportunity to hire the right person. 00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:21.360 Yeah, it's great, it's quite easy to forget, I think, when you're hiring how much you're also selling in that process and um how do you really get the right person takes once you've got through the initial screening as much on your part to to sell the opportunities it is to find the right people to come into. 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:23.039 Yeah, absolutely, 100%. 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:25.039 No, it's a great conversation, James. 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.320 Really helpful to get kind of a a very different perspective from from what we get a lot of times. 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:31.760 So appreciate the time and insight. 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.840 I close all these with the same couple of questions, which I'll I'll I'll ask you if that's all right. 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.719 And one kind of looks looks backwards a bit and the other looks forward. 00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:44.960 So if you go back and do one thing differently in your career and business and whatever it might be, what might that thing be? 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:46.639 Gosh, good question. 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:56.079 Clearly, I would have joined ZRG straight from university and uh be enjoying my life uh as I am right now, uh 2020 with 20 plus more years of that. 00:48:56.320 --> 00:49:00.400 Yeah, I think that would be the one thing, uh, the one thing to embrace quicker. 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:11.360 Uh working for a P back firm that is also uh entrepreneurial and uh uh you know and and warm in terms of culture, uh, etc., is exciting. 00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:13.360 Uh and I've been doing it for nine, ten months now. 00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:15.440 I do wish I've been doing it for a bit longer. 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.880 So it's a cheesy answer, but uh a genuine one. 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:19.599 That's all right. 00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:20.719 No, it's all right, it's all right. 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:21.920 I'll take cheesy. 00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:35.519 And I guess if you were given one bit of advice to whether it's a founder or a candidate who's kind of looking to think about how they can build long-term value in a business they're wanting to get involved in in professional services, what bit of advice would that be? 00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.719 I think at the moment it's that it's the ability to be agile, right? 00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:50.159 With everything changing so quickly, it's the ability to be agile and and because your client relationships uh you need strong long-term client relationships to to grow any business. 00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:56.239 But I think those expectations from those clients are are changing more rapidly than than they have done in the past. 00:49:56.400 --> 00:50:08.079 So it's the uh it's the ability to be agile, ability to spot opportunities and and pivot and jump into them, um, and therefore hiring with that in mind at the at all levels. 00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:12.880 But I think yeah, I think at the moment it's the it's the ability to be agile that is king. 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:13.920 No, agree. 00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:18.800 And there's there's no shortage of change going on in in in in in our sector and in the world. 00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:22.400 So kind of you you have to be able to think quickly and pivot around. 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:25.599 So uh no look, James, great conversation as always. 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:31.599 If somebody wanted to kind of learn more about ZRG and you and kind of what's going on, what's the best way to get in touch? 00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:35.599 Yeah, reach out to me, jbritapartners.com. 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.320 So I'm already converted to ZRG rather than ZRG. 00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:39.280 So on your site. 00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:40.800 So yeah, drop me an email. 00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:42.000 Always happy to have a conversation. 00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:43.119 Find me on LinkedIn. 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.039 I'd love to connect and speak. 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:45.760 Excellent. 00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:49.360 Well, we're heading to the weekend, so I hope you have a great weekend when it gets here. 00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:52.000 Good to see you as always, and look forward to speaking again soon. 00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:53.039 I look forward to too. 00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:54.239 Thanks so much for having me, John. 00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:55.519 No, pleasure. 00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:05.199 There was one part of my conversation with James I wanted to come back to, and that's around what changes when a business becomes backed by private equity. 00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:07.440 I could really relate to what he was saying. 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:18.079 I've been the CEO of a PE backed business myself, and at Garwood, we spend a lot of time helping firms through investment processes and then working with PE backed businesses after the deal. 00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:26.960 And one thing I've seen pretty consistently is that the expectations that come with investment are often very different from what leaders have experienced before. 00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:35.360 In that kind of environment, management and their investors will have a really clear plan for growth and value creation over a pretty defined period of time. 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:37.280 That creates real focus. 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:45.599 It also creates the opportunity to hire people, make acquisitions, and invest in things a business simply might not have been able to before. 00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:49.440 But it also does change the rhythm of running the company. 00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:52.719 Decisions often need to happen faster than they have in the past. 00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:58.960 Performance gets looked at much more closely, and the expectations around growth are usually higher. 00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:06.079 And when things aren't quite going to plan, which almost always happens during an investment period, things can feel pretty full on. 00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:08.239 I don't say any of that is a negative. 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:14.480 I found plenty about that environment really exciting, and I've seen lots of leadership teams really thrive in it. 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:19.920 But I do think it's important to understand that taking investment isn't just a change in ownership structure. 00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:24.480 It will almost certainly change what the job of running the business feels like as well. 00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:37.519 So the question I'd leave you with, I guess, is this if private equity or some other form of investment is somewhere on your horizon, how much of you and your leadership colleagues thought about what you'll need to do differently after the deal? 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:41.599 And importantly, how excited or not does that make you? 00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:44.719 If that's something you're thinking about, send me a message on LinkedIn. 00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:46.800 I'd be interested to hear how you're approaching it. 00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:48.320 We'll leave it there for this time. 00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:54.800 If you've enjoyed the show and found this episode useful, please do follow us to make sure you get the next one as soon as it lands. 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:56.960 As always, thanks for listening.