התמלול המלא של Spotting Financial Red Flags During Divorce - Tracy Coenen

worth divorce, but they 35 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:25.800 still have real concerns about whether there are as Tracy 36 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.120 puts it, Shenanigan's with the money. So listen into this 37 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.280 clip and then we're going to highlight some of the 38 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:34.240 key points she made on the other side, and in 39 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.159 the show notes, you're going to find where you can 40 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:42.439 access Tracy's resources. Well, I always say, what you don't 41 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:44.719 know about the money and divorce can hurt you. So 42 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.199 this is a great topic to talk about. 43 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:49.840 As you said, I've been a forensic account for more 44 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:52.599 than twenty five years doing all sorts of fraud investigations, 45 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:55.879 some of it in the divorce space. Typically for people 46 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.919 who have a lot of money, because they have complicated issues, 47 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:01.400 they have the resource is to hire a forensic accountant. 48 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:04.520 And a couple of years ago, I was really frustrated 49 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.439 because I wasn't, in my opinion, helping enough people. There 50 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:11.319 are so many people with average divorces where there aren't 51 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:15.360 really complicated money issues, but there are still money questions 52 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:17.759 that the people have. So I came up with the 53 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.000 concept for the Divorce Money Guide to help get resources 54 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:26.199 and tools in the hands of average people divorcing. And 55 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.960 we do talk a lot about hidden money or money shenanigans, 56 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:32.960 or what your spouse might have been doing with the 57 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:36.280 money that you don't know about that is improper, and 58 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:39.039 that's certainly a concern when people get divorced. But what 59 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:42.159 I find more so is there's often a spouse who 60 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.879 just doesn't know what they don't know. They haven't been 61 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:48.520 in charge of the money, they've been hands off with it, 62 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:52.000 which is perfectly normal, nothing to be ashamed of. When 63 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.360 you marry someone, you trust them, they say they have 64 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:57.479 your best interest at heart. They say, let me handle 65 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:59.439 the money. You might not be a numbers person. You 66 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:01.400 right say, this is great, I don't have to worry 67 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:04.840 about it. But when divorce times time comes, I say 68 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:08.080 to people, you cannot settle that divorce. You cannot agree 69 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:11.840 to anything final on the financial front until you know 70 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:13.240 your numbers right. 71 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.600 And I think so, I think you touched on something 72 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:18.800 really important. And I really like that you said that 73 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:22.560 nobody should feel bad if they said to their spouse, 74 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:26.160 you take care of the money. That's it's very normal 75 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:28.519 in a relationship to have a division of property. And 76 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.720 then you walk, as a woman, you walk if your 77 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.279 husband or your partner has taken care of the money, 78 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:35.920 you walk into your attorney's office, and the attorney says, well, 79 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:37.759 we need this and this and this and this and this, 80 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:39.560 and you kind of give them that deer in the 81 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.120 headlight look because you don't even know what they're talking about. 82 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:46.079 And then it's almost like you feel guilty, or you're 83 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.480 made to feel guilty that you don't have that kind 84 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:53.720 of information available. And I did one of your courses 85 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.160 online and it was just like a one hour course webinar, 86 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:01.079 and it was fascinating about how you could actually just 87 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.800 look at a bank statement or a credit card statement, 88 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:09.439 or any kind of financial document and recognize if something 89 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.000 maybe wasn't in alignment. That's a real skill for people 90 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:13.360 to have. 91 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:18.720 Well, I love telling people that the numbers are easy 92 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:20.839 to understand. You don't have to be good with numbers. 93 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:22.879 You don't have to be a mathematician or an accountant 94 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:24.480 to be able to look at your stuff in your 95 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:27.920 divorce and know what's going on. And people say, sure, sure, 96 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:30.639 that's easy for you to say you're an accountant. But 97 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:35.839 the way that it goes in most of these average divorces, 98 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.160 they are about ten or twelve ways that money is 99 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:42.639 hidden or used improperly, And all I have to do 100 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:45.639 is tell you what to look for. So here's one 101 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.360 example that we talk through in the Divorce Money Guide. 102 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:51.600 If someone has a secret bank account, they have to 103 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.279 get money in that account somehow. So let's say your 104 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:56.639

husband goes and opens an account at the bank that 105 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:58.720 you never knew about because he wants to squirrel money 106 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:01.360 away without your knowledge. How's he going to get money 107 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:04.879 in that account. Usually it's one of two ways. He's 108 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:07.399 either going to transfer money straight from your joint checking 109 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.040 account to the new one, or he's going to do 110 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:12.720 a larger withdrawal from that joint account and take that 111 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.759 cash and put it into his new account. Either way, 112 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:20.000 there's evidence there within your joint account that something happened. 113 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.759 And so I just teach people to go through these 114 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:26.879 account statements line by line and look for a transfer 115 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.839 to an account you never knew about, a withdrawal of 116 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:34.079 money that was larger, seeing done usual or something like that. 117 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:38.839 You didn't need any special accounting skills to identify those transactions, right. 118 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:41.399 Right, right, And I think it's that getting in the 119 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:45.399 habit of checking those accounts. And I really believe, like 120 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:49.199 I honestly believe that if you're in a healthy relationship, 121 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.720 and I hope you are, but to take that do 122 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:55.800 that as a couple on a monthly basis, like pull 123 00:06:55.879 --> 00:06:58.920 your pull your monthly statement, get it online, or sit 124 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:00.839 down at the computer with a coffee or a glass 125 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.319 of wine or whatever you want and go through, go 126 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:05.439 through it and say did you spend this? What you 127 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:08.240 know because you don't know what else is going on 128 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.920 in your accounts, let alone your spouse doing something funny. 129 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:13.560 There can be other things going on. So I love 130 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:17.439 that advice. What you getting all the info? Like, what 131 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:21.120 are some what are some ways that if I if 132 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:23.360 I've never had anything to do with the finances and 133 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:25.319 I don't even I don't even know if there are 134 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:27.879 these other accounts? Is there is there a way that 135 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:31.639 you can simply recognize that there may be these other accounts. 136 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.519 Yeah. What we do in the Divorce Money Guide is, 137 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:39.879 first of all, I have a really comprehensive financial document 138 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:42.279 checklist all the kinds of things that you should think 139 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:47.199 about gathering in your divorce. So of course it's account statements, right, 140 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.600 but it's things that you might not think about, like 141 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:54.360 track down your insurance policy for your house, track down 142 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:59.560 auto insurance policies, auto titles, track down wills and things 143 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:01.319 like that. There's all sorts of things that you can 144 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.839 think about getting. And as you're tracking these things down, 145 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.920 sometimes you come across information about other accounts. But the 146 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:10.800 way that we really end up finding these other accounts 147 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.480 is I have a process to help you gather those 148 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.959 account statements. So first we make a list of all 149 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.759 the accounts that you know about, or even if you 150 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:24.079 don't know about a specific account, but you think there 151 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:26.240 might be an account at Wells Fargo Bank. I've heard 152 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:29.040 my husband talk about that, but I've never seen anything. 153 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.240 But I don't know why he's been talking about it. Great, 154 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:33.240 let's put Wells Fargo on the list, so we know 155 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:36.200 that's something to follow up on. Once we have a 156 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:39.200 comprehensive list of what we know, we also know what 157 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.879 we don't know. Right, we know that there's some gaps, 158 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:46.320 some potential accounts. You can start gathering statements for accounts 159 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.000 that have your name on them. For accounts that don't 160 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:51.879 have your name on them, your attorney can start sending subpoenas. 161 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.919 And then the next piece of the process is we 162 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:57.360 get the statements and we start doing that process of 163 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:01.159 going through and looking for transactions that might indicate something 164 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:01.879 else is going on. 165 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:05.679 I love that And and again, you don't have to 166 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:07.840 be an accountant. You just have to grab some paper 167 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:09.919 and take a look at it, and you know it 168 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.720 was It was funny. This happened to a lot of 169 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:16.080 my clients during COVID because a lot of the spouses 170 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:18.759 that had these secret accounts were getting things mailed to 171 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:22.639 their office. Well, when COVID shut everything down, there was 172

00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.480 somebody in the office gathering all that mail and forward 173 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.360 to ins people's homes and all of a sudden, credit 174 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.759 card statements and bank accounts and I already you know, 175 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:36.159 retirement savings plans all started coming to the surface where 176 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.320 a lot of my clients did not know those existed. So, yeah, 177 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:40.879 it's awesome. 178 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.960 Yeah, Well, like you said, you said, it's not that hard. 179 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:47.559 What I explained about going through making an account list 180 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:49.799 and getting the statements and looking through the statements. Here's 181 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:52.879 what I've found. It is overwhelming to people who haven't 182 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:56.159 been involved, and so what they need is a process, 183 00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:59.279 and that's what I give them, is a process with 184 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.720 checklis and steps to take, and we break it down 185 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:03.440 little by little. 186 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:03.639 You know. 187 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:07.120 First step is just start thinking about what accounts do 188 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:10.279 you know about and kind of brainstorm that and sit 189 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:11.879 on it for a few days and marinate on it, 190 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:13.559 and all of a sudden you're gonna think, hey, wait 191 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.639 a second, there was a loan that we took out 192 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:17.759 a few years ago. I didn't put that on the list. 193 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:20.879 Let me write that down. It is that process and 194 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:24.559 those tools that walk you through that take someone from 195 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:27.480 being completely overwhelmed and thinking, oh my god, I could 196 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:30.240 never do this with the numbers, to taking them through 197 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:32.919 the baby steps. Okay, one by one, here we go. 198 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.399 Right, right, And I think, like I said, I really 199 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:40.000 appreciate what you're saying here. I had another client who 200 00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:43.799 found out that her husband had taken a heelock against 201 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.639 the house and she didn't know that. So what she 202 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:50.679 thought was the value of the house turned out to 203 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:53.840 be a lot less because there was that line of 204 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:56.600 credit home equity line of credit on their home that 205 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:59.240 he had just been using as a bank account to 206 00:10:59.240 --> 00:10:59.759 pull out of. 207 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:02.799 Right. There are two things like that that I find 208 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.759 are often hidden. It's the drawing on the home equity 209 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:10.080 line of credit and taking an early distribution from a 210 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:11.080 retirement account. 211 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:12.440 Oh I never thought of that. 212 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.600 Yeah, yes, And so we walk through how would you 213 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.159 figure out if there was that early distribution? Because there 214 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:21.679 are clues left behind, and it's all about the tax records. 215 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:25.120 So again, taxes are something that are overwhelming and intimidating 216 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:29.600 their ugly forms. I walk you through, here's what you need, 217 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.039 here's how you get it directly from the irs without 218 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.799 even having to ask your spouse for permission or anything 219 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:36.960 like that, and then here's what we look for once 220 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:40.799 we have those records. Yeah, and so I hope that 221 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:45.600 when people are listening to this that the idea of 222 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:49.840 if you're thinking about a divorce, before you start talking 223 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:53.600 divorce with your partner, start working on this financial stuff 224 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.559 because if it is likely that they're going to do something, 225 00:11:57.759 --> 00:12:00.240 play shenanigans with the money, as you say, trace see 226 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:04.519 if you don't have that information and then you say 227 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:08.639 the word divorce, it'll start disappearing like it'll just be gone. Yes, 228 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:12.799 so lose access to accounts, you the money will get 229 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:16.399 taken out of accounts. Which is why I created a 230 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.240 free resource for people to get them started on this, 231 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:22.399 and it's found at planning for divorce dot com. You 232 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:24.399 just put in your email address. It's a little download 233 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:27.720 and it is all about planning for divorce. What are 234 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:30.320 some steps you need to take as far as securing 235 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:34.399 some money, securing account statements when you're thinking about this 236 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.200 divorce or maybe even early in the process to really 237 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:40.360 protect yourself, right right, And so thank you for that. 238 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:42.080 I'll make sure that that gets in the show notes 239 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.559 so people can go grab it. Let's talk about if 240 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.679 you don't mind, let's talk a little bit about something 241 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:49.600 that I hear, well, I've been hearing this for about 242 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.919 the last

seven or eight years, that partners are concerned 243 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:59.320 that the other person has bitcoin or cryptocurrency wallets or accounts. 244 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:03.600 And I know that that's really on the forensic accounting 245 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:06.200 side to start dealing with that. But what are some 246 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:08.679 of the warning sides that signs that that might be 247 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:14.840 an issue? Or or is it really as prominent as 248 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.759 people think it is that somebody's got these hidden cryptocurrency accounts. 249 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.360 It's not as prominent as people think it is. However, 250 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.799 there's an easy way you know if your spouse is 251 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.519 talking about it, obviously that's one way you know about it. 252 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:33.600 But again, crypto accounts are kind of like a secret 253 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.200 bank account. The money has to get there somehow, So 254 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:42.519 you might see a transfer to coinbase or another exchange 255 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.360 that does the crypto trading, or you might see a 256 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.240 larger cash withdrawal and you don't know where that money went. 257 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:52.720 There's usually some evidence that's left behind that there is 258 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.159 the crypto that exists. Now, what do you do about it? 259 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.200 Because of course, your spouse is going to say, I 260 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.639 don't remember my key to my wallet, right, we can't 261 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:05.279 possibly get into it. The best way I've found to 262 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.000 approach this with the divorce court is to say, listen, 263 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.679 here's the evidence that ten thousand dollars was transferred to 264 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.840 a bitcoin wallet of some sort, and he's telling us 265 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:19.279 he can't access it. He doesn't know what it's worth. 266 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.679 We have no idea how many bitcoin is owned. We 267 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:25.039 just want credit for the ten thousand dollars that went out. 268 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:27.919 End of story. That's the easiest way to get that 269 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.440 money back. And I know that people get a little uncomfortable. 270 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.240 They say, well, what if that crypto is worth thirty 271 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:36.200 thousand dollars right now, I get it. It might be 272 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:38.759 worth thirty thousand, It might be worth two thousand. You 273 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.919 don't know. The easiest thing to prove is that money 274 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:45.120 that went out the door to crypto, and it's easy 275 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.360 for the judge to understand that and award you back 276 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:47.840 your half. 277 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.000 Right. That is a great thing, and I want to 278 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.279 so that brings us into the next part here that 279 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.519 I'd like to touch base on. It's that reality checking 280 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.679 about what the financial plausibilities are for some these things, 281 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:06.639 like I really appreciate that you offer this extremely low 282 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.759 cost option, or you let people walk, you give them 283 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:12.000 all the tools they need to do this on their own, 284 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:17.000 because hiring a forensic accountant can be a huge expense 285 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:21.240 in a divorce. And how do you approach that, Like, 286 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.759 how do you get people to reality check is it 287 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.799 worthwhile hiring a forensic accountant or are they you know, 288 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:30.200 like with the crypto coin thing, are they making assumptions 289 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:33.519 that there's all this money out there? How do you 290 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:35.000 reality check that for people? 291 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:39.600 When I'm having consultations with potential clients, I'm asking them 292 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:43.200 questions to try to figure out what do they know? 293 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:47.480 Right there, there's kind of this spectrum where some people 294 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:50.600 just have wild suspicions with nothing to back it up. 295 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.320 There are the people who have already found instances of 296 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:56.720 secret accounts, and they're on that other end of the 297 00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:59.919 spectrum where they already know that there's been some shenanigan 298 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.159 and they need to know the totality of it. And 299 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.399 then somewhere in the middle is someone who who might say, 300 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.440 you know, I thought we had an account at this 301 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:10.759 bank and there isn't one there and I don't know why. 302 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:14.919 So they've got a nugget of actionable information, but they're 303 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.639 not sure where to go with it. Once I ask 304 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.960 those questions and no is what is our level of proof? 305 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.399 What do we know about the facts. At this point 306 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:26.600 I can actually make a recommendation. And I will also 307 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.159 talk about, Okay, if you have some of these suspicions, 308 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:31.919 what's your gut feel about how much money could be missing? 309 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.759 Are we talking about ten thousand dollars? Are we talking 310 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.000 about one hundred

thousand dollars? Are we talking about five 311 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.159 hundred thousand dollars? And depending on what they come up with, 312 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.480 you know, I can make a recommendation to say, you know, 313 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.360 you're probably going to spend anywhere from ten to twenty 314 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:50.080 thousand dollars on the forensic accountant. Then you've got to 315 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.840 pay your attorney the fees to go into court and 316 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:55.279 fight over the money. Now, if there's a very large 317 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.440 sum of money at stake, certainly it's worth it. They 318 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.919 can make the cost benefit analysis. And if they asked 319 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:02.759 me my opinion, what would you do if this was me, 320 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:04.839 I will give them my honest opinion. There are cases 321 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.880 where I say I would not spend the money. I 322 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:08.720 do what I can to run some things down, not 323 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:11.440 spend the money. And there are other cases where I say, 324 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.319 you know, I don't know if we're going to find 325 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:16.920 anything you can use, but for my peace of mind, 326 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:19.039 I would want to go through the process, and I'd 327 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.799 be willing to commit ten or fifteen thousand dollars of 328 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.000 this to just get the answers because I have too 329 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:25.480 many questions. 330 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.880 Right, Yeah, And I think that's the That is exactly 331 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.519 what a lot of people need, is they need to 332 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.400 have somebody who's not going to try to sell them 333 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.160 a service they don't need, but also is going to 334 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:39.200 acknowledge that there may be a potential issue here. So 335 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:43.039 speaking with somebody like Tracy in a consultation call can 336 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.720 be really beneficial to you to know should you should 337 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:47.640 you invest the money or should you not invest the 338 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:53.759 money on about out of country stuff. And I get 339 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:57.039 this with some of my clients I work with, or 340 00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:01.759 they are concerned that the spouse either has citizenship or 341 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:06.400 you know, is a US permanent resident alien resident and 342 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.400 has you know, put the potential to have been sending 343 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:13.599 money overseas just as a general not with anything specific. 344 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.000 What does the court do with like overseas accounts? Or 345 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:22.400 overseas assets

in the United State if the divorce is 346 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:24.160 being filed here in the United States. 347 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:27.599 It's hard because the courts in the United States have 348 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.039 very little say so over what goes on overseas, and 349 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:34.720 so if we find money overseas, it's very very hard 350 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.000 to get that money back into the country. You have 351 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:39.880 to go through the legal process in that country to 352 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.839 be able to access that money. It's expensive, it's difficult, 353 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.400 and it may be really hard to get that money 354 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:51.880 back here. So what I do with clients is we 355 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:55.000 still try, of course figure out if there is money 356 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:58.960 that has gone overseas and how much has gone then 357 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:03.000 from what we own in the US that we can access, 358 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.599 we make the case that the judge award my client 359 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.880 more of that to make up for what went overseas. 360 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:13.440 So he or she has that money overseas and isn't 361 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.920 going to give it back to us. Fine, whatever is 362 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.240 in the United States is hopefully enough to. 363 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.559 Make up that difference, right right, Yeah, And that's so 364 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:23.599 that's another really good thing because I could see that 365 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.559 could be a potential rabbit hole of costs for both 366 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:31.480 attorneys attorneys in another country dealing with the tax system 367 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.799 in both countries and everything else. So Tracy, this is 368 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.599 I mean, you have shared a ton of information and 369 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:43.160 I really appreciate the fact that you offer this program 370 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:46.720 for people that don't have ten or fifteen thousand dollars 371 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.960 to hire somebody like yourself. So can you tell us 372 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.519 just a little bit more about your program and what 373 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:53.319 it entails. 374 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.480 The Divorce Money Guide is an online video course. We 375 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.640 also have a program where you can get access to 376 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:07.200 me with weekly question and answer sessions, additional content, additional tools. 377 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.319 I sort of have a whole lot of stuff available 378 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.519 for the people who want to try this do it 379 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:17.400 yourself way of looking at the money, walk you through 380 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.480 things in a very easy fashion, as we've talked

about 381 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.039 everything that you ever want to know about. The Divorce 382 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:27.519 Money Guide is found online at Divorce Moneyguide dot com 383 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:29.359 or you can find me on all the socials. My 384 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.160 handle everywhere is Divorce Money Guide. I do a lot 385 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:35.880 of short videos with tips and things to help you, 386 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:38.640 things to get you thinking. My goal is to really 387 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:42.319 have actionable resources out there for people that don't cost 388 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:44.799 them anything, but if they are in a position to 389 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:46.680 get a little bit of help, they could come and 390 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:49.839 do one of my programs at the Divorce Money Guide. 391 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:53.519 I told you this was going to be interesting. I 392 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.759 hope that you found that Tracy's approach, which is very 393 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:01.480 practical and very down to earth, can really help you 394 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.519 get a clear idea of First of all, are there 395 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.400 some red flags and some signs that you need to 396 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:12.880 be aware of or And I'm seeing this more and 397 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:17.160 more often where people just are making a lot of 398 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:18.480 assumptions that. 399 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.240 The other person is hiding money. 400 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:24.759 And yes, you have every right to check that out 401 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:27.480 and make sure that that's not what's going on. But 402 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.799 you also don't want to get pulled down the rabbit 403 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:35.119 hole of spending tens of thousands of dollars to track 404 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:39.759 assets that maybe don't even exist. It's just kind of 405 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.920 a game they're playing to get live, rent free in 406 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:45.680 your mind, as they say. So let's highlight a few 407 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.000 of the things that Tracy mentioned that I think are 408 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.319 really critical. So the first thing is it is important 409 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:56.240 to understand finances in divorce. Your attorney is not necessarily 410 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.359 a financial expert, and this is where I see a 411 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.079 lot of people run into problems because they are relying 412 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:08.559 solely on their attorney's information. Your attorney represents you in 413 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.759 the legal aspects of your case. They are not going 414 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:15.559 to be able to let you know whether, again, things 415 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.440 are being done funny with the finances. But as Tracy 416 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.160

talks about, there are some really simple steps that you 417 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.680 can use. If you can see the money coming into 418 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.400 a joint account, and you can see unaccounted money going 419 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.400 out of the joint account, it's going somewhere. 420 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:33.519 But if all the. 421 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.039 Money is coming in, or all the money that you 422 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.119 were aware of is coming in, there's not a lot 423 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:43.400 of options a forensic account and can't just go in 424 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.880 and start randomly searching every possible bank and financial institution 425 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.279 or crypto thing or whatever it may be. So it 426 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.480 is important that you understand your finances to see if 427 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.200 there even is the potential that there could be some 428 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:02.480 kind of fraud or financial shenanigans going on in the relationship. 429 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.240 The second thing, and that kind of leads into it, 430 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.079 is that you don't need to be an accountant to 431 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:11.359 spot those red flags. Just going over your account statements 432 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:17.000 is often the first step, so and again Tracy's tool 433 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:19.720 of the Divorce Money Guide can be super helpful in 434 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:22.799 taking you through step by step what to look for 435 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:27.359 on those financial statements and how to note if there 436 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:30.839 could potentially be an issue to take to a forensic accountant. 437 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:33.240 And again, this is not something you want to do 438 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:37.240 lightly because it is going to be fairly cost intensive 439 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:40.559 because as you can tell, there's a lot of research 440 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.319 and there's a lot of man hours and resources that 441 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.960 go into tracking down these issues. The third point that 442 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:52.039 Tracy really points out is that early preparation is critical 443 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:55.039 to your divorce and this goes for everybody. I'm just 444 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:58.319 going to say that before you start talking about divorce, 445 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:01.599 make sure that you gather the financial documents if you're 446 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:03.880 the one that's filing for the divorce. So what does 447 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.279 that mean. It means just kind of find out where 448 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.240 the finances are. Even if you don't know the specific 449 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:14.599 account numbers and all the details of it, at least 450 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.279 make sure that you are capturing what financial

institute they're in. Ideally, 451 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:21.119 if you can get the account numbers, that makes it 452 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:24.480 a lot easier. But you need to also make sure 453 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:27.839 that you are aware of where the money is going, 454 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.440 what assets you may have. Are there four oh one ks? 455 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:36.759 Are there? Are there savings accounts? Are there? Uh? Trading accounts? 456 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.160 You know what may there be and once you start 457 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.279 talking about divorce, and once people kind of get into 458 00:24:44.359 --> 00:24:47.000 their own camps, that's when the money can start to 459 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.720 disappear quickly. So you want to make sure that you 460 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:52.759 have access to that as early as possible. And if 461 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:55.480 you are the one filing for divorce, definitely do that 462 00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:58.319 before you start talking about divorce to the other person. 463 00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:02.160 If you have concerns about this. If you don't have concerns, 464 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:06.519 that's okay too, So that's good if you don't have concerns. 465 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:10.359 And then the fourth part that I think is really 466 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:13.839 practical and down to earth is do a cost benefit 467 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:18.200 analysis before hiring a forensic accountant. This can be a 468 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.160 lot of money. And again, like I said, if you're 469 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:25.000 you know, if there's twenty thousand dollars out there that 470 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:28.119 you're concerned about and it's going to cost you ten 471 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.359 thousand dollars to track it down, you're probably only entitled 472 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:34.359 to half of that anyhow, So chances are you're going 473 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.960 to end up with absolutely nothing out of it, and 474 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.160 you're going to be down ten thousand dollars. You would 475 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:43.519 have been far better better to just hold on to that, 476 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:46.519 hold on to, you know, the ten thousand dollars you 477 00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:50.559 spent on the forensic account So not every relationship needs 478 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:53.960 a forensic accountant. Not every person that goes through a 479 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.359 divorce is going to play, as I said, fast and 480 00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:58.519 loose with the money. As a matter of fact, most 481 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:02.079 people don't because I think now people are more aware 482 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:06.640 that there are ways to track this. However, that doesn't 483 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:09.559 mean that if you believe that there's a significant amount 484 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.200 of money out there and that your partner or you're 485 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.640 soon to be ex partner is lying or misrepresenting that 486 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:19.920 on their disclosures and discovery information, that you wouldn't want 487 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.599 to go forward. But again it's a case by case assessment, 488 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:27.160 so make sure you grab Tracy's free resources take a 489 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.119 look at them. That may give you the basics to 490 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:35.759 understand whether or not you want to move forward. Thanks 491 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.839 for sharing your time with me on Undoing we If 492 00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:41.839 this episode resonated with you, be sure to share it 493 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:44.359 with a friend, and don't forget to hit subscribe so 494 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:46.799 you don't miss the next one. If you're looking for 495 00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.839 some more support, be sure to grab my guide five 496 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:54.319 strategies for better communication during divorce and other life transitions. 497 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:56.440 The link is going to be in the show notes, 498 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:00.839 and remember, no matter what you do today, thing special 499 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.400 for yourself because you deserve it. 500 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:09.559 You're listening to WGSNDB Going Solo Network Singles Talk Radio Channel, 501 00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:13.079 where we take a lighthearted and candidate approach to discussions 502 00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:19.440 on the journey of relationship, laws, divorce, parenting, being single, relationships, building, dating, 503 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.559 and yes sex. Join our listeners and begin living your 504 00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:26.279 best life.