התמלול המלא של 24 - TruPolicing: How A Community-Oriented Approach Benefits Your Agency

00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.839 And you know, I was a police chief there for 12 years. 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:22.879 And um uh one of the things that I'm really proud of, uh, unfortunately, the town was hit by a tornado. 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:32.000 Um, and we were able to build a new police department, and that building was the original building that was built in 1905. 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:32.560 Wow. 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:42.399 And so um decades later, we're able to build a new police department and uh you know continue on that that legacy of that community. 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:49.600 So it is it is a community that um so many people, even in Oklahoma, really don't know about bowling. 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:55.360 Um it's right in the middle of Oklahoma City, uh, and it's also in the middle of Tulsa, Oklahoma. 00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:01.199 So you get people from Tulsa, Oklahoma who come in uh Oklahoma City and just all around the country. 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:13.920 So it is it is a community that continues to uh it has faced a lot of adversity, but is a community that will not go away because you have a lot of people there who want to continue that history. 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:20.160 And Pretty Boy Floyd and his gang came to Bole and Rob tried to rob a bank. 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.800 I I I'm kind of feeling like uh I think Brian's looking up flights over there right now. 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:28.319 Uh it's it's like a really interesting place. 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:31.120 But you also mentioned uh a black town. 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.120 What now in here from California, that's not something we hear very often. 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:36.639 What is the significance of that? 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:37.519 What does that mean? 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:48.879 It is so bowly is probably uh, you know, in Oklahoma, uh back in the Indian Territory, there was a lot of uh Oklahoma probably had more black towns than any uh state in the United States. 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:57.199 Uh and and now there's probably just a handful, but Boley is one that continues to thrive, uh, continues to progress. 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:01.519 And so um it just like I said, it has so much history to it. 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:03.519 And that's why a lot of people come. 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:11.120 I mean, to see the bank still stands, um where Pretty Boy Floyd and his gangs tried to come in and rob the bank. 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:19.759 But again, it's just the the culture of the community, and it's it is so inviting, and it's just not uh a black rodeo. 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:35.600 I mean, you've got people of all demographics who come to Boley uh just to see what this town is about, and they walk away uh with the sense of just like, hey, now we're a part of uh of this small rural town. 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.279 And that's that's one of the things that that uh I like about it. 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:47.120 And as I was sharing with you before we came on, you know, I was uh born and raised in a city in New Mexico called Hobbes, New Mexico. 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:59.759 And a couple of years later, after becoming a police chief, uh uh talking to the judge and the mayor who are both sisters, uh, they were like, hey, we uh you're from Hobbes, and I'm like, yeah. 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:09.839 And they're like, oh my God, we had people who would come to Hobbes to the Bowley Rodeo, and they show me some pictures, and I was like, man, I know that person. 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:13.839 So it's a small world we live in. 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:29.439 And to know that here I am, born and raised in New Mexico, come to Oklahoma, here I am, the police chief of a town that people would come to celebrate uh a black rodeo during Memorial Day weekend, just blew my mind. 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:32.559 And the fact that I was a part of that history is outstanding. 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:33.600 That's pretty cool. 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:38.960 There is so much history in parts uh the maps of our country that we just we fly over. 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:40.879 We don't even think about, we don't even see. 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:42.639 But I love the small town stuff. 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:47.919 I was actually uh born in an island off of San Diego, and uh everybody knew each other. 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:50.639 And if there was a crime, they would shut down the bridge. 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.759 That was the only entrance to and from the city. 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:54.879 So Nika. 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:59.440 And the other, the other, all the other way you could go, you had to get past a Navy SEAL base. 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.159 So you really weren't going that direction if you were a criminal. 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:02.480 Yeah. 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:04.399 So are you talking about Coronado Island? 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:04.960 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:17.440 Well, I tell you what, every time that there is a police chief conference to go to San Diego, I'm I'm I'm signing up because Carnada Island is one of my favorite places to to to visit. 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:22.000 Uh, I've walked from the hotel down to to the beach. 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:26.159 And uh so so yeah, I definitely know the community that you're talking about. 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:26.960 Give me a call. 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.279 We'll we'll go to one of my favorite restaurants down there. 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:30.000 Oh, okay. 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.320 Hey, man, I love Mexican food. 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:36.320 And so I found several good places on several visits there. 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:37.440 So I definitely will. 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:38.879 Oh, I got a place for you. 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:39.919 Yeah, that's okay. 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:45.360 Um, so kind of going back in time here, how did you get into policing in the first place? 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.200 I come from a family of uncles who are

in law enforcement. 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:55.519 Um, and my uncle, in in where I grew up in Hobbes, he was uh on the Hobbes Police Department. 00:09:55.759 --> 00:10:03.120 And so at the probably 10 years old, he got me involved with the police explorers, and I would do ride-alongs with him. 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:12.480 And here I am in the car with him trying to operate the radio, turn the lights and soris on, and and uh so it's just something that kind of grew on me. 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:17.679 And so I, you know, grew up playing sports, basketball and track and football. 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:27.600 And so I I thought I just had a a career going into playing professional sports, but had a couple of knees, knee injuries, and that kind of derailed that. 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:36.480 And so I ended up uh my uncle got me my first job working for the Lee County Sheriff's Office um in back home in Hobbes. 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:50.320 And so I did that for a couple of years and ended up moving to Oklahoma and uh got in the private sector for a little while and then got back into the um to law enforcement a couple of years later. 00:10:50.399 --> 00:11:04.320 So that's how kind of I got into law enforcement basically because I, you know, my uncle was somebody who I looked up to uh and uh had an uncle, two uncles out in California who were in law enforcement as well. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:12.240 So it was just something that our family has been a part of, and here I am, you know, decades later, still a part of it. 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:13.120 I love it. 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:19.200 Yeah, local government um it tends to draw from different generations of folks. 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:23.200 Uh I'm I'm my dad is a retired city manager, so I grew up. 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:32.159 My birthday parties were nothing but other city managers and council members and mayors and you know, the occasional kid would straggle into my birthday parties as a kid. 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:37.279 And, you know, my good buddy from Texas was a cop out there, and uh his parents were cops. 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:38.480 And it's interesting to me. 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:47.679 I hear this so many times in this podcast and from people just at our own firm that we work with here who are like, oh yeah, I'm in this because my parent was in this, and this because my uncle was in this. 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:54.480 I mean, I wonder what it is about seeing your family members do local government that attracts people to it. 00:11:55.120 --> 00:12:00.960 Well, it, you know, I think it it has to come from a uh a sense of community, a service, giving back to your community. 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:08.720 And I think, you know, once you get involved in this uh field, you definitely see where you're able to give back to the community. 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:20.480 And for me, that's what it's been about for the last over 20, you know, 26 plus years is being able to give back to the communities that I've been fortunate to serve in as a police chief. 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:21.360 Wonderful. 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:29.600 Yeah, I think for all the all the daily talk and worry about what happens at the state level and federal government level, the real stuff happens at the local level. 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:34.240 That's where the streets are paved and the parks are built, and that's who you're calling when you have issues. 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:35.039 Exactly. 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:40.559 You know, and I think a lot of people, you know, when your water doesn't come on, who do you call? 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:43.759 You're gonna call the city, you're gonna say, hey, why is my water off? 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:45.200 I know I paid my bill. 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:57.600 And so again, it's all about uh cities providing the best service that they can, uh, from public safety all the way down to to just regular utilities and public works. 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:07.360 And so that is something that I have always tried to do in the positions of being a police chief, is to make sure that we are providing the best service that we can. 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:14.159 And I look at it from a sense that we are, you know, our citizens are our customer service. 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:14.399 Right. 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:26.720 And I think you don't see you don't see a lot of that in in in municipal government where municipal government does not look at the citizens as these are our customers. 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:35.200 They just look at them as hey, these are our residents, but you have to have a a sense of customer service when because we're we are providing a service to the community. 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:36.240 Public servant. 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:37.200 I mean, that's the title. 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:38.960 You're you're serving your public. 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:43.679 And if you're living in that community, you're serving your neighbors and your own family, potentially. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:44.480 Exactly. 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:53.039 And and you know, I've always said, you know, if if your water isn't working, uh if your water is working and your neighbor's water isn't working, what does that say? 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:59.840 People feel like you're entitled because, oh, well, you work for the city, so they're gonna make sure your water stays on. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.559 But I've got a league, so they turn my water off. 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:16.720 So again, we got to make sure we're looking at it from a stand, from a standpoint that we all are we're just a part of a community, and how do we make sure that everybody has the same quality of service that even the elected officials have? 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:17.679 Absolutely. 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:20.639 So I think that's probably a good lead-in point too. 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:27.120 You become a chief, and uh did you immediately start turning to

community-oriented policing? 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:28.480 I mean, had you heard of it before? 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.840 How did you come across it and why was it of of importance? 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:38.639 So, you know, when I came to Boley in in 2000, it was, I mean, actually 1999. 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:42.879 Um it was, it was a, like I said, a small community. 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:49.679 And I really wanted to, how do you bring in community policing to a community that was like, what is community policing? 00:14:50.000 --> 00:15:01.360 And so uh because of that annual rodeo, I felt like how do we connect with people who are coming into the community and also connect to the community and surrounding communities? 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:13.039 And so I just started reaching out to elected officials and other people in the community and saying, hey, you know, how can we bring in um national night out? 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.879 You know, I'm pretty sure you've heard of national night out like everybody else has. 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.840 And people are like, Well, we're too small of a community. 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.559 I'm thinking, okay, well, you when you think small, you're gonna act small. 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:33.120 And so for me, it was just because you're a community less than 2,000 people, doesn't mean we can't do national night out. 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:46.720 And so we did our first national night out in um uh a year after I became the police chief, and I reached out to the lieutenant governor and said, Hey, we're gonna have national night out, would you come? 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:48.159 And she was like, sure. 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:51.919 And the the mayor and the judge was like, How did you pull that off? 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:53.840 And I'm just like, hey, I just reached out. 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:58.720 Uh, you know, who's gonna say yeah, who's gonna say no to a police chief? 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:06.240 And so we ended up uh getting other surrounding communities, they brought their boys, the Boy Scouts out. 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.399 Uh, I had, you know, bluebell ice cream, donate ice cream. 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.360 And so people were just like, wow. 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:25.360 And so for me, that was my starting point to how do you build community policing into policing and how do you make it to where people feel welcome? 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:32.720 And so, you know, the point uh of community night out, as I understand it, Chief, correct me if I'm wrong, is to bring everybody out. 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:45.440 It's to bring people in the community, out into the community, because we're kind of huddled in our own phones and spaces right now, but you bring everybody out businesses, public service, moms, dads, residents, everybody. 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:46.000 Yeah. 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:47.360 And that's what's important. 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:55.440 And I think a lot of, you know, when you get into bigger cities, you have uh HOAs who host national night out, you have other organizations. 00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:02.000 But when you're from a small community, you have to figure out a way to really bring everybody together. 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:10.799 And what that looks like is somebody is saying, hey, I will cook the barbecue, I'll, you know, I'll bring this dish or I'll bring this dish. 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:17.119 And so it just people were like, now you're looking at it from a family standpoint, like a family reunion. 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:22.880 And and so uh we did that for all 12 years that I was there. 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:34.160 And I have to say this, that when I uh got selected to be a police chief in the Ocoma City metro area, uh the judge and mayor and a lot of people in the community is like, so what are we gonna do now? 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.599 And I was like, Well, I can always come back. 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.079 And they were like, hey, that's great. 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:47.359 And so uh I ended up going back a couple of years helping out with the uh with the events, so so it was uh it was good. 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:48.240 Yeah. 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:49.599 That's wonderful. 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.039 Um so what about community-oriented policing? 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.920 How would you how would you define community-oriented policing? 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.400 And uh I guess, yeah, what is it? 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:01.519 How would you describe it? 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:07.680 So community-oriented policing to me is just bringing in everybody collectively. 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:15.200 And uh and first of all, it really starts with educating the officers about what is community policing. 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:26.400 Uh, because if the officers don't really understand what community policing is, you're gonna have a hard time convincing them this is why they should get out and participate in some of these events. 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:32.720 And so that's where it really starts at is the educational piece and talking about what community policing is. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.680 And I have to say this, uh a lot of people, you know, it's like a slogan. 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:49.599 Hey, we're doing community policing, but what really is community policing, you know, uh, and it's not just a deal for the police chief or the command staff to show up for a photo op. 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:58.480 You really have to embed yourself in that community uh or in those neighborhoods to really uh for to build that trust. 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:08.799 And and that's another piece of it for the people to really trust you and not to just think, oh, well, you're just doing this here to to get your picture in the paper or something like that. 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:09.519 Yeah. 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:22.319 I mean, is is it an example of community-oriented policing, like some of the articles

we read where a police officer will run across some kids who shouldn't be where they are, and maybe they get out of their car and they engage with them and they talk with them. 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:28.319 You see the videos sometimes of like a cop will pull some dance moves with some guys or maybe shoot a few hoops with them. 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:33.279 Is it that kind of thing, like embedding yourself within the groups that you're coming across? 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:34.000 It is. 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:40.799 And it especially in in the black, in in in the minority communities, because uh everybody wants good policing. 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:46.559 Uh, but what they want is police officers to to really feel like they're a part of the community. 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:56.160 And and so when you see police officers, you know, stopping and playing basketball with kids in the neighborhood or playing soccer with them, that's that's community policing. 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:58.480 That's really putting yourself in the community. 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:14.160 And, you know, I've I've encouraged my officers to, hey, if you s if you're driving down the street and you see a senior citizen trying to get some groceries out of the car, stop and help her or him get get the groceries in the house. 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:21.039 And you'd be surprised at the response you would get from from the community when you do stuff like that. 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:35.200 And so uh I I had uh some officers who did that, and uh a day later a lady showed back up at the police department with with a with a uh a box of cookies that she had baked, and they were like, oh wow. 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.559 And I said, so see, that's that's what people really want to see. 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.039 Uh just getting out helping the community. 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:42.240 That's wonderful. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:49.279 Now you mentioned, uh Chief, that community-oriented policing is particularly important in minority communities. 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.039 Why why is that the case? 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.640 Because you you know, a lot of it is all about enforcement. 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:58.000 And and again, it's not about connecting with the community. 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:04.559 And oftentimes you don't see police officers who are from those communities working in those communities. 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.359 You see them coming in from the suburb cities. 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.039 So they don't really have a sense of connecting to the communities. 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:20.400 And I think that's that's what's missing is the fact that you don't see a lot of police officers growing up in those communities coming back to work in those communities. 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:29.599 And so and oftentimes people wonder, is it really genuine that you see a police officer out there cleaning the playgrounds with the kids? 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:32.240 Is there some

other alternative motive? 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:41.839 And and I have to, you know, tell officers, uh, especially if you're uh a white officer, hey, black people they they like feeding people. 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:51.440 If you like to eat, hey, on a on a good summer day, if you see some smoke in somebody's backyard, stop because I guarantee you're gonna get a good plate of barbecue. 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:52.880 That's great. 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.359 Yeah, it's funny how many different cultures, you know. 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.759 Uh the my Mexican family, they love they love making sure you eat a bunch of food, the down. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:00.799 Yeah. 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:02.640 It's a we all agree on food. 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:03.759 We all agree on food. 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:04.960 Some kind of food. 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:12.960 And exactly, you know, and and when I was a police chief in the Oklahoma City Metroid, I would get out on a Saturday and my wife is like, where are you going? 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.640 I'm like, oh, I'm just from the ghost suspense, just to drive around and see what's going on. 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:23.200 And and next thing I know, I'm I I see some smoke coming up, or I see a family, you know, out front in the yard. 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:29.440 And I would stop and the officers were, they kind of thought I was out sneaking, you know, kind of sneaking on them. 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.079 And I was like, no, I'm just out trying to see what's going on. 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:37.279 And they would pull up two or three cars deep, thinking, oh man, the chief is in trouble. 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:38.960 I'm like, hey, man, I'm over here eating. 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:39.680 I'm having a good time. 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:40.960 You're having a plate of barbecue. 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:41.519 You're the alpha. 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.200 Hey, I'm having a plate of barbecue. 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:48.240 I gotta, I got a a good, a good, some good Mexican food or or whatever it may be. 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:56.720 And so again, I think that's just what it's all about is that people see who you are and and and it's it's all about building relationships. 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:09.599 And that's what my uh goal is always being is to uh to build those relationships into uh and when I do leave those agencies, that's something that continues on within those police departments. 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:18.400 And so, I mean, to someone who might listen to this and think, yeah, that all sounds well and good, but you know, there's a lot of people hating on police officers right now. 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:27.680 It'd be dangerous for me to get out of my car, or I don't have the time uh, you know, to get out of my car and go check with these people and go to barbecues, whatever it may be. 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.599 What do you have to say to those folks? 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.200 You have to make the time. 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:36.240 You know, I tell everybody this is yeah, it's a very stressful position. 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:52.079 Uh, you're running from call to call, but in between those times, instead of you going to a local McDonald's or restaurant or somewhere else with a group of other police officers, get connected with people in the community. 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:57.759 And and so, because at the end of the day, that's who's gonna be there to really help you. 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:04.480 And so uh, and I think again, um you you really have to make that a priority. 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:10.720 And I think a lot of uh police departments, some do a really a very good job and some don't. 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:33.359 And I think when you try to find excuses and say, well, man, I'm going from call to call, call to call, and I don't have time, well, if you can make time to to go hang out with your buddies for a couple hours to eat, you can definitely make time to to stop in the neighborhood where some kids are playing on the playground and get out and just introduce yourself to them and to their families. 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:41.200 And I think that's that goes a long way with when we really are talking about what is community policing, what is what does that look like. 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:41.759 Yeah. 00:24:41.839 --> 00:25:08.880 And I mean, in terms of hard dividends, hard returns, I mean, it seems to me that you've now got uh the next time you go and maybe you have to roll up on some guys who are actually causing a problem, if they know you already, you're probably gonna have a better chance at getting the compliance you need, and you're gonna have less of a chance of uh a really negative interaction because people just statistically are less likely to be violent with people that they know outside of certain domestic situations. 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:09.759 Exactly. 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:24.000 And I think that's another key thing of it is that even when you have to make an arrest or you have to enforce something, you know, you may roll up to the park and it's, you know, 11 o'clock at night and the park's supposed to closed at 10 o'clock. 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:28.559 And now you're saying, hey, you gotta leave the park, and they're like, oh man, we're just having a good time. 00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:37.279 If you really, if they know you and you know them, you're gonna say, okay, listen, as long as we don't get any calls, go ahead and play into midnight. 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:42.079 And I think that's what goes a long way because now people are saying, hey, you're pretty cool. 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:43.920 You're real easy to get along with. 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.599 Or you may just hang out there for an hour and shoot some hoops. 00:25:48.079 --> 00:26:04.799 And uh you may get a little sweaty, but at the same time, you you built some relationships with some people that was not expecting you to uh to bend some

of the rules that typically another officer would say, absolutely not, you gotta go. 00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:09.599 And now you've got another officer who is doing just the opposite. 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:24.960 And so that's what, again, is it no matter what community in, where you're in a black community, Latino community, or you know, Asian community, people just want to know that you're somebody that they can trust and somebody that they can communicate to. 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:26.240 Yeah, amen. 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:27.359 Absolutely to that. 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:34.960 And you might end up that could be a recruit, you know, uh, tough situations, tough neighborhoods can be a recruiting ground for good or bad. 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:42.319 And so in that experience, you might be finding yourself molding the next police officer uh because they see, you know what, that guy's actually pretty cool. 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.799 I want to be like him and I want to help my community. 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:52.319 That is that actually has happened to me, uh, being a police chief and and just, you know, communicating with kids in the community. 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.839 And, you know, a couple of years later, I had a kid walk in and say, Hey, uh, I want to be a police officer. 00:26:57.920 --> 00:26:59.920 And I'm like, Yeah, you got a couple more years. 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:06.880 He ended up graduating high school and uh and and came back in and said, Hey, I'm 21. 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:08.799 And I'm like, hey, you know what? 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:18.400 Since you've been this persistent, I will put you through uh a reserve academy that's gonna lead you to becoming a full-time police officer. 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:26.480 And and that was one of the things that his his mom, because he came from a single family home, that his mom was just like, wow, I just can't believe it. 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:27.920 That's wonderful. 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.880 And it has generational impacts too, which is wonderful. 00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:44.799 So, you know, in code enforcement, kind of kind of tying in code enforcement here a bit, um, did you have experience dealing with code enforcement, sometimes called code compliance, neighborhood preservation, uh, in your in your time in the police departments? 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:45.839 Oh, definitely. 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:53.359 Uh we've, you know, for in open, especially in Oklahoma, code enforcement fell under the police chief's uh umbrella. 00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:04.319 Uh so we had a code enforcement officer, and and one of the things that I always tried to do was try to understand what was the job, what was the role of the code enforcement. 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:24.079 Um, and and you know, if it's, you know, talk about somebody with high grass or, you know, hey, they've got a bunch of tires piled up somewhere, how do you get somebody to to kind of clean up their properties, but at the same

time, do it to where it's not, it doesn't cause a burden on that, on that person. 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:32.000 And I think for me, it was always finding out are there some things that are preventing somebody from keeping their property up? 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:35.200 Is it because they're on a fixed income? 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:41.680 And and had a code enforcement officer who would come in and say, Chief, man, I can never get them to do anything. 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:43.759 And I said, Hey, let's go out and talk to them. 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.000 So I get went out and talked to them. 00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.079 And their response was, we just don't have the money. 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.839 And I said, Hey, I know some people at a local church. 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:59.200 If I can get some volunteers to come over here and help you clean up this here, will you be okay with that? 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:02.079 And they were just like blown away. 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.200 So I reached out to some friends and local church. 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:06.880 They came over and cleaned up the property. 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:10.640 And the code enforcement officer was kind of like, How did you do that? 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.119 And I said, the same thing I did, you could have done. 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:26.799 It's all just about communicating with people and finding out what's going on and what what are the needs that this that this resident is trying to, why they are not able to fix whatever we're trying to get them to bring up to to Cahu. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:50.960 So, Chief, is that another example of not just community-oriented policing and code enforcement, kind of connecting the dots and putting resources in the hands people need it, but also an example of where if you've already been doing community-oriented policing, it actually comes back to help you because, for example, National Nine Out or any other situation that you refer into, Chief, you might have met these church folk or you might be going to that church. 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:51.359 Who knows? 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:58.319 And you know that they want to do something good, and then you pair them up with someone you find the community who maybe doesn't know they're out there. 00:29:58.640 --> 00:29:59.519 Yeah, exactly. 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:10.240 And again, I think, you know, when we use when you look at the word code enforcement, it's the enforcement piece of it that everybody gets kind of hung up on and say, we have to enforce this. 00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:22.720 Yeah, we do, but at the same time, there has to be a reason for somebody not able to keep their their property up to code or or if it's a business, what's going on with that business. 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:39.759 And we need to really kind of find out how we can really help them instead of issuing them a citation, having them go before a judge, and and ultimately, if a j they go before a judge, now a judge is gonna say, Well, I gotta either it, you know, here's a fine. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:46.720 Now that person has to figure out how to pay the fine plus get their property up to code. 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:57.279 And and so I've always looked at it, how can we again it kind of goes back to being this public servant, how can we really serve the public without really enforcing? 00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:09.440 Now, there are some times where you really do have to enforce some things, but at the same time, when you do that, people are gonna respect you because you've tried to work with them along the way to get some things done. 00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:28.000 And it in reality, you say, listen, you have to go before the judge and you have to figure out a way, but now people will have a lot more respect for you because you've really tried to help them instead of trying to uh put some type of additional cost that they really can't afford. 00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:36.160 Yeah, uh, sometimes you're going backwards with the fines when they're already struggling, if finances are the issue, which they are for a lot of people these days. 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.079 You're you're kind of going backwards. 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:45.680 But I love that idea, you know, wielding the the power of government is incredibly strong. 00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:50.000 The government power is incredibly strong, and it has to be because it's got to be for the greater good. 00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:55.039 But to enforce it literally is missing the point. 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:56.400 The point's compliance. 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.759 And so you've got to use the law to get that, to get that cooperation, to get that help. 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:02.799 And I agree with you. 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:04.400 I I have always viewed it like a funnel. 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.000 At the top of the funnel, you kind of just get all the complaints that code enforcement gets. 00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:10.400 And then in that funnel, it kind of narrows down. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:17.200 You know, some people are dropping off because you've hooked them up with the church that can help them out, or some other group, or you're able to go out and help them, or whatever it is. 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:18.799 Maybe they need an extension of time. 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.240 Maybe they need your help finding family members who can help them out, that kind of stuff. 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:32.559 And then really at the bottom of the funnel, like the ones that come across my desk as a lawyer for uh as a city prosecutor, are the ones where the people have just been like, I'm just not gonna comply. 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.359 Or it's another problem that is unsolvable. 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:36.720 So I I agree with you. 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:41.359 It's like when I go in front of a judge, I see the same judges over and over again. 00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:48.960 Even in a state with 40

million people, they want to know, hey Matt, even if you didn't have to, did you try to get these other things? 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.640 Because if you did, then I'll back you up on the law. 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:54.799 If you didn't, what are you doing here? 00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:56.079 Yeah, exactly. 00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:57.359 Give an example. 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:13.599 Uh when I was a police chief in in uh Golden Valley uh in in Minnesota, there was this property who they just had a uh uh a continued problem of just not complying with the code enforcement. 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.319 And there was no code enforcement person. 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:27.440 It was the fire actually it surprised me coming from Oklahoma, uh being a police chief and also being in Arkansas, where I was used to having code enforcement uh under the police department. 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:32.480 Here was a municipality that didn't, and the fire department took care of their code. 00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:35.839 And I was like, huh, that's a little that's different. 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:42.480 And and it and mainly in a lot of cities that I found out in Minnesota, that's kind of how they operated. 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:47.279 It became an issue because the property owner had an issue with the city. 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.720 They had an issue with the with the uh fire department. 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:57.279 And I said, okay, well, maybe there's something I canbe I can churn my way into trying to get some some resolution. 00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:04.799 And I went out and talked to the property owner, and I could tell that he he was he had enough of the city. 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.680 He was just like, I don't care what they do. 00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.719 They can find me, I'm not gonna blah, blah, this and all that. 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:12.079 And I was just like, wow. 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:19.679 So I said, hey, listen, is there any way I can get you to just do one thing and then we can work on the other? 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:20.159 Right. 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.599 And the first thing he asked me was like, you must not be from around here. 00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:25.199 I was like, no, I'm from Oklahoma. 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.400 He's like, How did you come from Oklahoma to Minnesota? 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:33.119 And I'm like, hey, I'm still trying to figure it out too, because it's way too cold up here. 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:44.320 And and and this was a situation where we're in the we're in winter, and it's like 20 degrees outside, and I'm like, listen, man, I I don't like the cold weather. 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.840 I'm pretty sure you're used to it. 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:53.280 And so we had a joke about it, and he was just like, you know what, Chief, uh I'll do it. 00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:01.440 And so I went back to the fire chief and told her, and she was just like, This guy will not budge on anything. 00:35:01.519 -->

00:35:01.679 Yeah. 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:11.840 And you actually got him, and I just said, I just need you to move these tires and put them somewhere else, out of sight, out of mind, but at least at some point you gotta move them. 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:19.679 And he was just like, they were just like amazed that this guy even had that small amount of compliance. 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:25.679 But what I ended up doing was just I kept going by there, talking to him, getting to know him. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.760 And again, he had a long-running feud with the city. 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:36.320 And and some of those things you try to fix, and some people won't budge, and uh, but he he did. 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:41.039 And so again, it just kind of goes back to communicating with people. 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:50.000 And oftentimes it just takes a different voice, a different phase and a different voice to to get people to actually try to comply. 00:35:50.239 --> 00:36:04.000 And uh, but at the end of the day, like you, like you know, I mean, yeah, some people are gonna end up before a judge, and the judge is gonna make a ruling, and unfortunately, it may not be what everybody wants, but that's just kind of how things work. 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:04.559 Right. 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:13.280 Yeah, we do have backup systems for uh when we get into an impasse and we can't solve it, we do have the process, but that shouldn't be the first stop. 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:16.800 Everything you just mentioned, Chief, kind of reminds me of two different episodes we had. 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:36.960 We had one uh on hoarding with one of the uh folks for the TV show hoarders, and he was talking about, and of course, I'd watched a bunch of episodes on it um leading up to that episode, and he was saying, you know, so much of the job is just kind of getting understanding what caused them to hoard in the first place, and then trying to talk them through it. 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:43.280 Because if you go in and just do the hard approach where you just take all their stuff, it's just gonna come back and it's just a meltdown. 00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:43.840 It's awful. 00:36:44.000 --> 00:37:00.800 And then our other guy, uh, we had a code manager, Seminole County, Florida, and he was talking about how, you know, he would drive down the street and he had this one particular person who just would not comply, and he finally just knocked on her door, sat down with her, and just got to know her. 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:02.719 And he got compliance. 00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:10.800 And it's like on the government side, I gotta scratch my head when I hear people want to pick a fight with City Hall and say I'm just not gonna do it because they will lose every time. 00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:17.599 But people just want to be heard sometimes and feel like, you know what, I am a person with feelings and I have rights too. 00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:21.119 Well, and I, you know, and that's the same thing with this property owner. 00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:26.079 He's like, you know, I'm paying, I'm paying my taxes, I'm paying a water bill, I'm doing all these things. 00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:27.760 Why are you harassing me? 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:29.039 Leave me alone. 00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:38.719 And and, you know, and I have to say this, you really cannot be in municipal government, you cannot be selective on who you want to enforce code enforcement on. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:39.119 Right. 00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:58.000 When you drive down the street and you see, if there's an ordinance that says no cars are supposed to be parked on a grass, but then you drive down the street and you see multiple cars with cars parked on the grass, but then on the other side of town, you're enforcing that, but you're not enforcing it on the other side of town. 00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:07.119 And people pay attention to that because people will come back and say, Well, hey, I drove over here on this street, you're not doing anything, but why are you over here harassing me? 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:07.440 Right. 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:20.239 And so you that's one thing that municipal government really needs to make sure that you're not doing if you got code enforcement or whoever is taking care of that, is don't be select, treat everybody the same way. 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.119 There's circumstance, different circumstances for different people. 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:33.280 So uniform and fair application of the law, uh, without regard to obviously greed, color, where you are in the neighborhood, that kind of stuff. 00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:38.159 Um, and then I heard as well, get into the community, of course, and get to know folks. 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:46.639 And then I heard pair up the need with the resources, uh, and then just good old-fashioned talking to people and building relationships. 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:53.760 Are there any other tips, Chief, for an agency that's listening that might want to try to implement some of these community-oriented policing strategies? 00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:57.199 You know, I've always say, don't reinvent the wheel. 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:03.920 Just see what somebody else is doing in their communities and just do the same thing that they're doing. 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:15.920 But the main thing is just really getting to know and talk to people because once you get to do that, people will be like, hey, yeah, I mean, now you you'll wonder why people are inviting you over for coffee. 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:17.679 Yeah, sure. 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:19.039 Right, absolutely. 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.639 Uh, where can people go to not reinvent the wheel? 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:29.840 Where could someone go to find example of like a police uh community-oriented policing policy or strategy? 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:36.880 You know, I think, you know, it in this profession of law enforcement, just really kind of

reaching out to the police chief saying, hey, what are you doing is right? 00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:45.039 And and uh and making sure that how can you kind of come in and offer that same service to that community. 00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.599 So I think it's just really just networking and and finding out how you can really help those help that community out. 00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.800 Yeah, great point. 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:53.360 Reach out. 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:56.559 I mean, speaking of reaching out, reach out to other colleagues about that stuff. 00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:09.199 Also, the Department of Justice has had a uh uh and the Bureau of Justice Assistants has had a cops paper out there for a long time about community-oriented, community cops meaning community-oriented policing strategies. 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.440 They've had out there for for quite a while. 00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:12.800 So people check that out. 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.199 I think it's got a list of stuff that they could do too. 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:16.400 Yeah, definitely. 00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:18.079 Again, there's a lot of resources out there. 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:30.480 I think you just really have to just really look for those resources and and also again, just networking and finding out what's working in the neighboring community and how you can partner with each other uh to do the same thing. 00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:40.960 Again, that's just something that we we kind of get into our own little bubble in policing where we really don't want to branch out in because it's kind of like it's an ownership bill. 00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:48.960 If we're doing it, we don't want nobody else to steal our secret, but it's not really a secret because again, somebody else was doing it somewhere else. 00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:56.880 So you got to be able to to bring that and let and share it with everybody else because at the end of the day, uh it's all about helping each other. 00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:58.320 No, that's a great point. 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:05.760 And if you're a police officer or you're a code officer, eventually you might be the boss in one of the other jurisdictions that uh borrowed your info too. 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:06.960 So that's good to share. 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:08.719 Chief, last question for you. 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:16.960 If whether it's code enforcement or policing, if you could snap your fingers and change one thing, what would it be? 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:23.119 It would be how do you get people to understand what municipal government is about? 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:33.519 And and and and really to get people to uh have a sense of you know what policing is is is about and why some of the things happen. 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:42.960 But at the same time, I think it's just really uh uh about putting police officers in the best position to be good public servants in their communities. 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:45.920 And and so that

that really goes a long way. 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:52.960 Because again, you you've seen since the death of George Floyd, so many people have a distrust for police. 00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.199 And I think how do you rebuild that trust? 00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:02.400 And that that's all about getting out, talking to people, getting out, changing what people really think about policing. 00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:15.039 Uh, because everybody wants good policing, but they want fair and equitable policing and not to be where we're coming in with a heavy hand to enforce ordinances and laws in our communities. 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:27.519 So it's really about, you know, just changing that perspective of what people are looking at policing about, and uh and just really kind of going back to the grassroots of what community policing is about. 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:32.000 Getting out of your cars, talking to people, walking up and down the streets. 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:42.639 Uh and so, you know, if I was able to do that and and everybody would say, hey, I've got the best police department in the in the country, I think a lot of people would really appreciate that. 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:44.239 Well, that's that's wonderful. 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:45.519 I I couldn't agree more. 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:55.440 I mean, the relationships and good old-fashioned, actual, honest relationships are uh that's the antidote probably for all the problems we're facing in a society right now. 00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:59.119 Put down your phone, get out of your car, go talk to people, shake hands. 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:00.559 You never know they'll come back. 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:02.719 Chief, it's been just a pleasure. 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:04.559 It's been a great conversation chat with you. 00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:07.599 I feel like we could keep going on forever on this, but uh we can't. 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.159 And so I I so appreciate what you're doing. 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:18.960 And you know, you're I think what we heard here today was a living example of the community-oriented policing model put into play. 00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:23.599 So, and in multiple states, multiple different circumstances. 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:27.920 Uh I I really appreciate the perspective you bring and what you've been doing. 00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:29.679 Thank you for your public service. 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:37.199 Well, I appreciate the the invitation and be able to share with you and your listeners about, you know, what community policing should really look like. 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:45.199 And even when you look at the code enforcement side of it, how code enforcement really should play a major role in community policing. 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:54.719 Uh, and and and for people to really feel a sense of, yeah, I I do, there's some things I need to get right, but at the same time, how do you go in and help some people? 00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:06.000 Uh, and you'll find out that people uh they're not gonna say no to help, uh, but they just want a good, honest uh conversation with people and to be treated fairly. 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:07.039 Absolutely. 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.079 So our guest today has been Chief Virgil Green. 00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:12.320 Thank you uh so much, Chief, for being with us. 00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:18.159 You know, code enforcement is the tip of the spear a lot of times for uh community involvement. 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:24.639 Sometimes people, the only interaction they've had with their local government outside of the police uh is code enforcement. 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:27.280 And so it's so important to think a big picture. 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:35.760 I think community-oriented policing has not just a role in code enforcement, but a lot of you are already living it out there who are doing it. 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:39.119 You just don't know that it's called community-oriented policing. 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:43.599 For the rest of us, uh, there's more to do, and there's always more ideas. 00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:48.719 There's no, there's no book that's the final chapter on what community-oriented policing should involve. 00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:54.239 Uh, it's something that we're always adding on to because there's always new relationships, new ideas, and new solutions. 00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:56.320 So, Chief, once again, thank you very much. 00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.360 And thank you to our listeners for joining us here on the True Code podcast. 00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.480 Stay tuned for the next episode coming to you soon. 00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:07.119 Thank you for joining us on this journey. 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:13.039 If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now. 00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:14.559 Until next time,