התמלול המלא של Have we misunderstood the Great Commission? Chris Wright on mission and preaching the whole Bible

to be doing good works, as Paul puts it in the world. So there are many things that we are to be doing. And so there's a more holistic or integrated understanding of mission. So sometimes there are arguments back and forth between people. As to which of these has priority or which is more important than the other. And my argument really is to say that's the wrong question. It's a bit like asking, you know, we we have to drink water and we have to breathe air. Which is more important? Well, actually, it's a pretty pointless question because if you don't do both, you're not going to be alive for very long. They are different, they are distinct aspects of our bodies. But our bodies are integrated holistic systems in which many things operate together to have a living body. And I would say the same thing is true of mission. Evangelism and social action, they're not the same thing, but they have to be integrated around the centrality, the heartbeat of the gospel itself. And that's what this book is trying to argue and to take some of the controversy out, because I think sometimes the controversy arises because we ask those rather pointless questions. We try to prioritize things when God says, do it all. You know, as a church, I've given you all of this to do. So don't start arguing as to which is more important. Just go and do it for God's sake, for Christ's sake. I I I'd like to open up on some of those issues as we go forward, but I'd I'd just like to ask something in a sense of about our personal encounters with with Jesus. I'm I'm I'm very aware that each of us in our own in our own personal lives, in our corporate lives. a as churches encounter Jesus in different ways. We see him in our in our cultures, we see him in the way we go about our lives. Do you think that impacts the way we do we do mission? Can our personal experience of of of of Christ really affect or change the the way we we we seek to do mission if that's the way we well I mean it certainly ought to, Peter, don't you think? I mean It's it's Jesus who gives us at the end of all four gospels this sense of a of a mandate, a commissioning. go and make disciples of all nations, he says at the end of Matthew, and you will be my witnesses to the ends of the earth, he says at the end of Luke. And perhaps most significant of all, at the end of John's Gospel, he says to his disciples that as the Father sent me into the world, so I send you. So there is this integral link between The Father is sending the Son, and the Son breathing the Holy Spirit on his disciples and saying, Now then, as God sent me, I'm sending you. So we are participating through this encounter with Christ, with the risen Christ, the disciples were in a sense being invited into the mission of God. it's not as if Jesus is saying, Look, right, okay, I'm off back to heaven. Why don't you guys go and be missionaries, you know, and I'll see you in heaven when I die, when you die, sort of thing. It's not There's no disjunction between God sending Christ and Christ sending us. It's all one flow of sentness, as it were. So I think the encounter with Christ is crucial because it then makes us ask the question: well, in what way did God send Jesus? And and God sent Jesus into the world through incarnation, through becoming flesh, through entering into human life with all its suffering and pain and mess and absurdity. And Jesus Becomes here, he comes flesh and dwells among us. So there has to be something about our being sent in mission, which is an encounter with the world, with the suffering, with the poor, with the needy, with the lost, an encountering with them in the way that Jesus came to encounter us. So it can't be done just at arm's length. It it it has to be engaged. So I think what you're saying there, that that encounter with the living Christ through the Holy Spirit. surely must be pretty central to what Christian mission is and means. Thank you, Chris. That that that that's really helpful. So thank you, thank you for that. one of the things that struck me about the book and which I I enjoyed very much was the way you painted the whole panorama of of the Bible in in the way that perhaps Christians going to church Sunday by Sunday may get small parts of the Bible. read out a gospel reading, a piece of the Old Testament. And maybe in our study groups we'll we'll study a particular section, one of Paul's letters or a book of the Old Testament. But what you've you've done very helpfully, I think, is to spread out the whole breadth of the scriptures. I I in my note here I said you paint a wonderful picture of the Bible. And I think you've used the phrase a declaration of the single overall mission of God. And you describe the scriptures as a drama in seven acts. I wonder, could you just just for those watching this interview, just sort of sketch out what those seven acts are? Yes, certainly. Thank you. Yeah, it's it's a metaphor, of course. it it the it's the image of a drama or a play, which we know proceeds through various acts and scenes according to the narrative that's being portrayed. And the idea of calling it a drama is it's not just a story. It's actually a a drama in which we are called to participate. There are actors, the director is God. In fact, he's the chief actor as well. And then we are also part of the of the of the cast in the end, because we participate in the story of God. So it's quite a dynamic sort of way of thinking about the Bible. And I you're right. I mean, one of the problems I find often is that good church-going habits are wonderful. But if all we get are bits and pieces of the Bible from time to time, which aren't put into some context of the whole story. Or indeed, if we are in that Christian tradition where we like to read a little piece of the Bible every day, you know, devotionally, again, that's a good habit, but it it can be very bitty. You know, you it's your little promise for today sort of thing. and we neg we we we we

basically lose the plot, this sense that that God Well, let me start at the beginning then. The idea of the seven acts, it's it's not to suggest these are seven dispensations or something, and may even people may want to add more or take one or two off. It's it's it's not i i it's just our way, our way of thinking about the whole Bible. So act one is when God creates the heavens and the earth. Beginning in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So there's a whole, as it were, a whole tradition of Christian theology based on that truth that we live on a planet. Created by God, made in God's image as human beings, with responsibility for ruling and caring for the creation God gave us. So act one is as a really important place to start. But then act two is that it all went wrong. We messed it up. And there's a kind of a an X sign saying we chose to disbelieve God, to distrust his promises, to disbelieve his his instructions and to disobey. And we we rebelled against God. and that then introduces into human history this reality that in in one sense we're still living in act two, you know, we're still living with the consequences of the fall, as it's called, our great rebellion. We we chose moral autonomy. We said, we will decide what is good and evil for ourselves. Don't try to tell us what's good and evil. Nobody rules me. I'll decide for myself. That's the very essence of Act Two. The Bible, it could have stopped there, couldn't it? But it didn't, because Act Three is when God makes a promise initially actually he made it to Adam and Eve that through the seed of Eve, through the a human being, there would come the defeat and destruction of the serpent, evil. So God makes a promise then. But the really big promise that God makes comes in Genesis 12 to Abraham, when he says, You will be a great nation, and through you and your people, the people of Israel, I will bring blessing to all nations. So that there's that sense of the whole of the rest of the Old Testament is really Act Three. It it's God. Making this promise and then driving the story forward bit by bit by bit. A very complex narrative, lots of smaller stories, all very in and out and round the corners and everything else. But it's all moving in one direction until eventually you reach the fulfillment of that promise in Act Four, which is the story of the gospel, from the conception and the birth of Jesus, his life, his teaching, and then of course his atoning death and the cross and his resurrection and his ascension to the right hand of God. Everything from his conception to his ascension that's there in the gospel narrative. that's act four. And of course, that's that's the center point of the whole story. That's where God accomplishes the salvation of the world. But again, the story doesn't end there because in the day of Pentecost, God sends his Holy Spirit on his people to act five, which is a story of mission. God says, now this has got to go to the nations, so go take

the good news of salvation to the nations. and so then everything from the resurrection of Jesus to the return of Jesus is all what you might call Act Five. And that's where we are, isn't it? And that that's our part of the story, because the story didn't end at Acts 28. it it carries on through the history of Christian mission all over the world. Acts six, I would would say, is the final judgment. I I I've sort of pulled it out as a separate thing because I think it is very important. Paul actually calls it part of the gospel. Because it is good news that evil and sin will not have the last word in God's creation. God says, I am going to deal with all wrongdoing and all evil and all evildoers who remain unrepentant. And so there is a a a sense in which the universe will have a moral conclusion that God, the judge of all the earth, will do what is right, and there will be an ultimate rectification of all that is wrong. That's that's an important hope. It's it's hugely significant that we live in a universe which will have a a moral vindication at the end. And then Act seven is the new creation, when John in Revelation twenty one says, Then I saw a new heavens, a new earth and and the whole city of God and I the dwelling place of God being with his people. And God once again tabernacling, dwelling with his people in Revelation twenty one, twenty two. So the story reaches a glorious climax and conclusion, which in some ways is just a new beginning. Because it's a new heavens and a new earth in which we will dwell with God forever. And in a sense, who knows what's going to happen beyond that. But in between Act One and Act Seven, you have this great narrative of God's redemptive mission and purpose through Christ for his whole creation and for all nations. That's the big story. My my desire is that people should more and more realize that's the story we are in. That's what we are called to participate in. that's what we're living for. Chris, thank you for that, because I I I'm aware that I I set you a task there which which you you sum up in in in in more detail. So do do do for folks to go and read the book and just just Yeah, that's the idea. Absolutely. You summarise that ri really, really beautifully. Thank you for that. And and and you you paint very much an integrated view of mission, the different parts of mission using using the the the the the the six marks of of mission that the Anglican communion have put together some years ago. And yet and yet one still comes across some Christians who will say, well, is social action really part of mission? Or Christians who will say, well, you know, this whole area of creation care, is that really central to what we should be doing? Shouldn't we be focusing on what they might call evangelism? and and these other things social action and creation care they'd see perhaps as as as secondary and and I wonder how would you respond to them? Because it could be that some of the people watching this either hold those views or or in churches where there are people who they are ministering to who would hold those views. And how how would you respond to to to those points? Well I think the first thing I'd want to say is I have, in a sense, I've I have a great deal of sympathy and resonance with that view for the reason that I tried to give a little bit earlier, which is that I do believe we must affirm the centrality of the gospel. But by the word gospel, I don't just mean four spiritual laws that get you to heaven when you die, a kind of a formula or the sinner's prayer. The gospel, according to the New Testament, is the good news of God. It's What God has promised and what God has accomplished in Christ, through Christ, for his whole creation. I mean that's what Paul says very clearly in Ephesians and in Colossians, that God's will and God's purpose was to reconcile all things in heaven and on earth to himself through the blood of Christ shed on the cross. So the gospel is the center the gospel of the cross and resurrection of Christ is the center point of all that God has accomplished, not just for us to get to heaven, as it were, but for his whole creation. So that's what I want to say at the very beginning. Centrality of the gospel, yes, therefore, evangelism utterly non-negotiably important. so I would never want to be heard to be downplaying or saying we should therefore give up on evangelism, very far from it. however, it seems to me that when you look at the Bible as a whole, and indeed when you include the minist the ministry and mission of Jesus and of the Apostle Paul, who when the church in Jerusalem asked him Accepted that he was an apostle to the Gentiles, Paul says the only thing they asked of us was that we should continue to remember the poor. And Paul says, the very thing that I'd been eager to do all along. He said, I didn't they didn't have to ask me to do that. He was doing it anyway. In fact, Paul's first missionary journey was for famine relief. his first sending by the church in Antioch under the instruction of the Holy Spirit was when he and Barnabas took the famine relief down to Jerusalem. That was their first mission. Unfortunately, it gets neglected because that's in Acts 11. And we often think that Paul's first missionary journey is in Acts 13 when he goes off to Cyprus and Asia Minor. So there's all sorts of reasons which I try to give in the book why I think that we shouldn't dichotomize what, to put it bluntly, God has put together, which is that we are to obey the great commandment, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. We're to care for the earth and steward it wisely, which was the first great commission given to humanity, and we're to do these things as God's new humanity, new men and women in Christ. And therefore, as his people, we are to care for one another, to care for the poor, to be salt and light in society, to go out and do all of those things. And to do it in the workplace, in the neighborhood, in

the schools, the hospitals, wherever we are, we are as that in in that sense bearing witness. To what God has done in Christ, to use the way Jesus puts it in Luke's gospel, to you are my witnesses to what God has done. So, yeah, I the book itself, and come back to it for a moment. you did refer to this fact that it was back in 1984 that the Anglican Communion, not just the Church of England, but the whole global Anglican Communion came up with what they call the five marks of mission. and the first was evangelism, and the second is teaching and discipling new believers, so baptizing and teaching. The third is works of love and compassion for the needy, you know, Jesus feeding the the hungry and healing the sick. The fourth is seeking justice. again, Jesus said, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness justice. It's it's language which is which is there in the New Testament. And the fifth is the the the godly use and care. Of creation of the earth itself. And what I try to do in the second half of the book is to show, first of all, that I think all five of those areas of mission are biblically rooted. They do have deep roots in the scripture. And secondly, that they are either directly or indirectly connected, in fact, to the Great Commission, which is the way the end of Matthew's gospel is often called. Directly because baptize and make disciples and teach them is the first two. But teaching them all that I commanded you, said Jesus, it wasn't just teach them all that I taught you. Jesus says, Teach them to obey all that I commanded you. Well, that's that's more than just head knowledge of the gospel or of disciples. That actually means obedience to the teachings and the commands of Jesus, which included a lot about compassion and generosity and forgiveness and care for the poor and the sick and the needy and so on. So it seems to me that those Other marks of mission are indirectly included in what Jesus commanded at the end of Matthew's gospel. And of course he claims to be the Lord of creation at the very beginning. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me, he said. And heaven and earth was the characteristic Old Testament Jewish way of speaking of creation. Jesus, I'm Lord of creation, it all belongs to me. So wherever you go now, go in the name of Christ into his world. Think that's very helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I think there will be folk in our churches who who might hold some of those views. And it's good for you to be able to sort of contest them. Well, it's not so much to contest them, Peter. It's it's more to I don't know, modify them or or it's it's to help people who have got something which is absolutely true. Yes, we must preach the gospel and evangelize, but to recognize that within a broader framework of biblical understanding of what mission includes. So Rather than to contest, it's more to broaden or to open people's eyes a bit wider and and to help them see that things like social action. So

it's not going liberal, it's not, you know, going Marxist or something. It's actually being more fully and truly biblical, I think, in in my view. That that's really helpful. Thank you. And you you mentioned there to taking a broad view of o of mission. I think one of the things that struck me in in the book was you take A broad view of mission, and you paint a very broad view of the Bible, just setting it all out as we've discussed before. And I wondering, do you in a way have a lesson for for folk who might pick out one verse here, here, or there, and use, I think the phrase sometimes uses sort of clobber verses to particularly put across someone's point of view? Is that something we should be very careful about? Because we need to put particular verses on a whole range of subjects in a in into a wider context of what the Bible's whole narrative is. Well yes it is. I think it's important to take any verse in the Bible in its context, not only the passage that it's set in, but also the book that it's in and the part of the Bible that it's in. So taking the the message in context is essential to to any, you know i interpretation of of any text requires that you you know the context that it's being said. so yes, I would say that. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to discount the authority of Bible texts. You know, I mean, when when God says something in the scripture, he says it. He doesn't have to say it multiple times before we have to accept it. so even if there are only a few texts which deal with a particular issue, we we need to treat them seriously. I think what what what I would encourage people to do is To to do a kind of mental Bible scan, if you're asked what's a Bible, what is the biblical position on this issue or this topic? Well, start with Act One. Think of what does creation tell us about us? But what what are the sinful evil aspects of this issue that the Bible diagnoses for us? And then how does God's promise and his the the teaching of the Torah and the prophets, the law and the prophets and the wisdom literature of the Old Testament? Where does that fit into our thinking? And then of course. The incarnation, the cross, the resurrection of Christ, what light does that shed on the issue? The Holy Spirit, the mission of the church, the new creation. So that you you think through issues with a whole Bible approach rather than just saying, where's the verse that answers this question? And very often there isn't one. we we need to see the the light of the whole. So for those who are preachers and are entrusted with pastoring and preaching in a church, I would be encouraging you to A to help you just. help your people recognize the Bible as one whole story. I mean, you could even do what I did a few minutes ago and preach a sermon which really preached the whole Bible in one sermon. Say, you know, look let's look at the whole story. This is it. And then help people to see, yeah, now I can fit the different parts into that whole story. And then make an effort over time to preach systematically from parts of the Old Testament, parts of the New Testament. And when you do so, show where they fit and and help people to Connect the dots, as it were, as they're listening. Good preaching over time should give people an understanding of the whole Bible story. another book that I I did write, which might help people to get onto that one, is The Mission of God's People. It's a book published by Zondervan, Zondervan Press back in 2010. And that's a book, The Mission of God's People, which tries to take from creation through to new creation. But in in a more in-depth way than the book we're talking about, the Great Story and the Great Commission, to look at quite a number of different texts. Some of my favorite texts in the Bible, when I ever when I'm asked to preach about mission, you know, church mission weekends I'm often asked to preach. And so I'd try to pick passages from Old Testament and from New Testament. And so that book, The Mission of God's People, is a kind of overview of about a dozen to fifteen of those passages. Chris, thank you. This is this is enormously helpful. I I'm thinking of many of those watching this will be preachers and and you've already alluded to this in terms of preaching. And I wonder, do you if I might ask you, do do you have a, I don't know, a favorite passage that you like to to preach on, or one or two favourites? Well, yeah, one and two. Well, one is certainly Exodus chapter nineteen, verses four to six, because that's where God gets the Israelites to Mount Sinai, and he gives them both a sense of identity, who they are, and also a role and a purpose in the world. He says, You are now my people. I brought you out of Egypt. You've seen what I've done. So you have experienced my salvation. Now then, if if you will obey me, then you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. In other words, priestly in the sense of bringing God to the world and bringing the world to God. But if you're going to do that, then you also have to be distinctive. You must show the difference between you as a nation and other nations to show what God is like. So I quite often like preaching that text on a mission Sunday because it it answers basically the questions, who are we as God's people and what are we here for? What is our reason for existence? And it is to be God's representatives on this earth. we are those who are to show the world what God is like and to bring the world to God. And and of course that's a text which is then quoted by Peter in First Peter chapter two, where he specifically quotes from Exodus nineteen and says, You are that people. So it's not just the Israelites, it's also applied to Christian believers. that's one text if you what if you've got time for a second, from there's a passage in First Kings chapter eight which is where Solomon is Praying to dedicate the temple. And in his prayer, he says to God, Well, God, I know that you

don't live in this little house that I built. You're up there in heaven. But when we come and pray in this house or towards us, please hear in heaven your dwelling place. And when you hear our prayers, then respond. And then he says, But as for the foreigner who does not belong to your people, and you might think he's going to say, you know, keep them out of this place. You don't want their type round here. No, he says, when they come and pray to you in this place, then Because he says people will hear about your name from far and near. When the foreigner comes and prays, then do whatever he asks, so that to the very ends of the earth people will know the name of the Lord. So it it's a missionary prayer. Solomon wants God to answer the prayers of people who weren't even Israelites, so that the name of God would become known to foreign nations to the ends of the earth. And you know, is that missionary or what? I mean, it's the same motivation that we have as Christian believers. That we want the name of Christ to be known and to be honored to the ends of the earth. Well, in a sense, that's what Solomon is praying for there. and and so it motivates us to realize that a God hears the prayers of those who are not yet his people, and so we can assume that people are seeking God. Outsiders are looking for God in some way. The question is: will we as a community, will we as now the temple of God, as Paul calls this and Peter calls it, will we be such. an attraction, you know, that that God that people say, gosh, I I want to know something of the God you worship. such that then almost by customer service, as it were, God becomes known to the ends of the earth. He answers the prayers of people who pray to him and we make him known. So I I quite often like preaching that passage and turning it into a a Christ centered missionary text. There's lots of ways to do that with with with Old Testament passages, because as I said, the mission of God didn't begin on the Mount of Ascension when Jesus gave us a great commission. The mission of God begins, in a sense, the day after Adam and Eve fell at us in, when God made a plan and a purpose to bring redemption to the whole creation. Thank you. Chris, just one final question for you. And a way it comes out of the last question and your answer to it. Do you would you have any particular tips or advice for preachers, perhaps particularly preachers who are starting off on this? on on this road and really learning learning their craft, learn learning their gift. Well, yeah, there's so much that one might want to say. I I did once run the marathon many, many years ago, and one person said to me, there's no substitute for putting the miles in. You know, you just have to do the training beforehand. And I think for good preaching there's no substitute for putting the hours in. in other words, good preaching requires those who who will Make and set aside the time to study the Bible text, to read and think and pray and get into it and really wrestle with what God is saying through that text. So that's one text is you know, work hard because it is hard work, but it it then is rewarding. I think the other thing I would say is w with preaching is to to stay humble under the word. That's to say, when any of us preach the Bible, we're not In the position of an Isaiah or something saying, Thus saith the Lord, you know, whatever I'm now saying is what God is saying. What we're saying is, this is what I believe the Bible says, this is what I think God is saying through his Holy Spirit, and now it's up to you to hear what I think God is saying to us. And then, like the Bereans, do you remember in the book of Acts that after the apostle Paul had preached to them, we read, They went away and searched the scriptures to see if these things were true. In other words, even with the Apostle Paul, they searched the Bible to check up what they'd been taught. And we need to encourage our congregation to say, look, we all sit under the scripture, preacher and congregation alike. So let's be humble enough to accept that and to if someone disagrees with you things, well then take me to the Bible. Let's go to the Bible together and see what it says. And then if if I'm wrong, well, let's see. And if you're wrong or right, then the Bible will help us to find the answer. Chris, thank you very much for your time. I'm I'm most grateful to you both for writing this this book and and many others that you that you have written, but but also the time to spend with us today. So thank you very much and and bless bless your ministry. Thank you. Thank you, Peter. It's been good to talk. Thank you. Bless you.