התמלול המלא של Ilhan Omar Under Scrutiny: The Citizenship Questions

civil matter, if your naturalization was obtained by fraud, it was void ab initio, which means it can be revoked and essentially just never happened. 49 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:15,280 And so even if you weren't the person responsible for obtaining a fraudulent naturalization, if it was fraudulent, it can be revoked. 50 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:20,280 Now, as for the criminal charges, right, merely having saying you could be denaturalized doesn't mean that there's a crime committed. 51 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:27,280 And obviously the crimes, the initial crimes that were committed were committed 30 years ago and are well beyond the statute of limitations. 52 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:37,280 But the problem for Ilhan Omar is that when if you know that your citizenship was obtained fraudulently, which she darn well might. 53 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:40,280 And I could explain a number of reasons why. 54 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:48,280 Then every time you reattest that you are a citizen or reattest, you know, say your date of birth, that is a new crime if you know it's false. 55 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,280 So that's Ilhan Omar's potential criminal exposure here. 56 00:04:51,280 --> 00:05:00,280 It's not that, you know, she's going to be charged necessarily with the marriage fraud as an independent crime because the statute of limitations on that has probably run. 57 00:05:00,280 --> 00:05:04,280 It's that she may well be charged with crimes based on more recent statements. 58 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:16,280 And if the government is able to kind of, you know, craft this into a broader conspiracy, then she might be charged with some of the conduct that might have otherwise run, might otherwise be past the statute of limitations. 59 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:22,280 What makes you think that she knew that her immigration was potentially fraudulent? 60 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,280 Well, she was born in 1982 and she came to this country in 1995. 61 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:28,280 So she would have been about 13 years old at 13. 62 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:32,280 One probably has a good sense of who one's father is also at 13. 63 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:34,280 One has a good sense of how old they are. 64 00:05:34,280 --> 00:05:37,280 So and also what family they're a part of. 65 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:45,280 Now, there's there's two different aspects to the potential fraud here based on public reporting that's been done for the last decade by people like David Steinberg and Scott Johnson. 66 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:47,280 A power line. 67 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:50,280 Basically, there's a real question first. 68 00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:57,280 You know, it's pretty clear that Ilhan Omar's father was a high ranking member of Syed Barre's regime in Somalia. 69 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:03,280 Syed Barre was a communist dictator or at least a socialist revolutionary one under American law. 70 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:11,280 If you are a member of such a regime, you

are completely inadmissible for immigration to the United States under all circumstances, as are your family members. 71 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:16,280 You are just not you're not eligible because you are a member of a communist organization. 72 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:23,280 When they applied for naturalization, it's pretty clear they did not mention that they read that, you know, his this father had been a member of a communist organization. 73 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:38,280 So if indeed there is proof that her father obtained, you know, was this person who is a member, who was a high ranking colonel, that naturalization was fraudulent in the same way that we the United States revoked the naturalizations of former Nazi guards who hid their affiliation. 74 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:45,280 And then it was revealed 30 years later that they were, in fact, members of the Nazi regime, their naturalization was revoked and they were deported. 75 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:48,280 So that's a similar that's that's the first problem she's facing. 76 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:53,280 The second problem she's facing is that it's not clear she was they were honest about what family they were a member of. 77 00:06:53,280 --> 00:07:07,280 Right. There's there's some very remember all this talk about the marriage of her brother is relevant and so far as it indicates that if there's something was wrong with the initial naturalization in the first place, because if this family was naturalized properly, there's no reason they could have brought. 78 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:10,280 They couldn't have brought their whole family over in one swoop. 79 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:23,280 But what it sounds like is there was some sort of family merger going on where, you know, Ilhan's father and herself were kind of merged into a family that did have the right to come to the country and naturalize or something along those lines. 80 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:32,280 And so if there was any sort of dishonesty about who she was personally, like what her name was, anything like that, that's also obtained fraudulently. 81 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:38,280 And then finally, there's the matter of her age. It's not clear that, you know, they said she was 17 when her father filed for her naturalization. 82 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,280 But there's some suggestion that she was actually 18 going on 19 when that happened. 83 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:49,280 If she was an adult and misstated her age, that's another way in which the naturalization would have been obtained fraudulently and therefore be void. 84 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:57,280 Now, criminal naturalization fraud generally has a 10 year statute of limitations from what I could see her paperwork dates back decades. 85 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,280 So how is a criminal case still possible? 86 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,280 Well, the statute of limitations is a defense. 87 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:10,280 It's not actually an element of the crime, meaning that federal grand juries can investigate even crimes beyond the statute of limitations. 88 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:17,280 They just will ultimately, if they try and indict that crime alone, will run into a ball, you know, will get dismissed on the motion to dismiss. 89 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,280 But it doesn't stop you from investigating crimes committed long ago. 90 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:36,280 Moreover, because there's all these questions about, as I said, the way in which you might have restated or reaffirmed under oath the lies that were included in the original fraudulent naturalization documents, that would be a new crime within the statute. 91 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:52,280 So I looked up the history of this denaturalization stuff and I found a Supreme Court case called Maslin Jack versus the United States. And the question is about civil denaturalization. 92 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:58,280 Do you think civil denaturalization is the most likely path that could be pursued here? 93 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,280 And what does the government have to prove after that Supreme Court case? 94 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:08,280 Well, again, civil denaturalization, as I said, there's no statute of limitations. It's a civil matter. 95 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:21,280 And so if she is unlawfully, if her citizenship was obtained fraudulently, even if that happened a long time ago, it just doesn't matter as far as I can tell. That's my understanding of the law. 96 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:35,280 If you're just tuning into the Wake Up America show right now, I'm speaking to Will Chamberlain of the Article 3 Project about the early morning raid of Congresswoman Ilhan Omar. Has a sitting member of Congressmen ever faced denaturalization? Is this unprecedented, Will? 97 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:45,280 Yes, this is unprecedented. I mean, they're not the first person to have their, you know, as I said, that there were people like who were former members of the Nazis regime who lived very quietly long lives. 98 00:09:45,280 --> 00:10:00,280 And then finally, they were hunted down. The interesting thing about Omar is given her, you know, if it's true that her naturalization was based on tenuous grounds, it is a surprising decision of hers to run for public office, because that usually tends to lead to people examining your background more thoroughly. 99 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:06,280 And I think there was a lack of understanding of what the consequences of that might be for her own ability to stay in the United States. 100 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:15,280 So the speech or debate clause protects legislative acts, Will, but does it have anything to say about a search of a member's home over conduct from before she was elected? 101 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:27,280 I mean, it could have a say. Apparently the New York Times reported that there was some back and forth between the judge and the DOJ about exactly that, the speech and debate clause, and what

it impacted might have on some of the crimes that were being charged here. 102 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:37,280 I fail to see the speech and debate clause couldn't possibly protect your statements under oath that you were making to, say, obtain a passport or to otherwise reaffirm that you are a citizen. 103 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:46,280 Now, I mean, I think there's an interesting question about it, whether it apply to she might have said she's a citizen in Congress or on some form when she was applying to become a Congresswoman. 104 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:53,280 And that I could see how there's a speech and debate clause question there. But for most of the conduct in question, no. 105 00:10:53,280 --> 00:11:01,280 OK, so what what if agencies phones or laptops that contain legislative communications? What about then? 106 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:17,280 Well, then you'd have a circumstance if they're worried about that they'd have some sort of team, team like any any any circumstance in which you the government ceases material that it ceases electronic device that they believe contains some privileged material and some unprivileged material. 107 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:31,280 You handle that as you have a team of prosecutors who are walled off from the rest of the actual prosecution team and they go through that that device, evaluate the material for privilege, remove the privilege material from the what they present. 108 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:37,280 They ship on to the team who's actually prosecuting the case. Now, Omar is saying this is a political intimidation. 109 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:44,280 Conservatives were saying the same thing about the raids on Trump and his allies. So how do we tell a legitimate investigation from a political one? 110 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:51,280 Well, well, I mean, you you look at the underlying facts and see whether there's potential criminal activity there, I think. 111 00:11:51,280 --> 00:12:11,730 I wrote about my Ron Paul days when I got taken in by the antiwar crowd. I wrote, I was naive and deeply wrong. Leave others alone and they'll leave you alone. That schoolyard philosophy doesn't even work on the playground. I wrote about it the moment it cracked on a New York City bus in 2012. I was reading Ralph Rayco's essay, rethinking Churchill. 112 00:12:11,730 --> 00:12:26,730 Now Rayco makes a big deal out of the fact that little Winston Churchill had 1500 toy soldiers and quote played with them for many years after most boys turned to other things as if that proved Winston Churchill's bloodlust. 113 00:12:26,730 --> 00:12:39,730 Rayco's verdict on the man who stood alone against Hitler was that he was a man of blood. And my reaction was who hadn't played with toy soldiers and dreamed of glory and battle. That's not a war crime. That's just called being a boy. 114 00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:49,730 So that's when I started to wonder what wagons was I hitching myself to. And then I watched the Ron Paul Institute blame Ukraine in the West for Putin's war. 115 00:12:49,730 --> 00:13:02,730 I saw Russian flags flying at a libertarian antiwar rally in Washington. And I think I figured it out. The antiwar movement is an anti-American movement. It's only wrong when America does it. 116 00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:16,730 And I ended with this. I'm not pro-war or antiwar. I'm pro-winning wars. And America first means our Constitution, our way of life and liberty and our prosperity come first. If that can be done without war, then good. If it can't, so be it. 117 00:13:16,730 --> 00:13:33,730 Now, Jim Pfaff joining us here in just a moment, he quote, posted it that night and called it a thoughtful pushback against the present pacifism of the currently popular libertarian mindset on war. He wrote, we need a badass military we hardly use. And pacifism is a cowardly principle. 118 00:13:33,730 --> 00:13:42,730 And he closed it with read what Austin says carefully. Now, this is an important statement. Jim knows this world from the inside. He ran Massey's office. 119 00:13:42,730 --> 00:13:55,730 And last month, when Massey filed articles of impeachment against Secretary of War Pete Hegseth, Jim wrote, I reject this effort. Trump is not a warmonger. He's pursuing peace in the world and I support him. That takes guts when it's your old boss. 120 00:13:55,730 --> 00:14:16,730 Joining us now is Jim Pfaff, president of the conservative caucus, founded in 74. Jim was chief of staff to Massey, Tim Heelskamp of Texas, founding executive director for AFP in Colorado. He spent his career in the same orbits I have. Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Massey, Amash. And this fall, he told some of them to their faces that they'd gotten it wrong. Jim, welcome to Wake Up America. And thanks for putting up with that interview. 121 00:14:16,730 --> 00:14:26,730 No worries at all. Thanks, Austin. Yeah, Jim, first question. You said my post was an important statement. What is it about that that hit home for you? 122 00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:41,730 Well, I think what's happened, I had to wrestle with I've had to wrestle with this and being part of the libertarian movement for I was calling myself a man of Christian faith. I would call myself a Christian libertarian back in the 1990s. 123 00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:57,730 And it would throw people because I'm reading von Mises and Hayek when I was a young kid and in bibing in Milton Friedman. So as I keep growing in this movement, this idea of pacifism really has frustrated me. 124 00:14:57,730 --> 00:15:10,730 And listen, I have great respect for Thomas in so many things that he's done. I mean, he's he's done a lot of right things. And I've always said that if there are 220 Thomas Massey's in Congress, Donald Trump would have gotten everything that he wanted to get. 125 00:15:10,730 --> 00:15:21,730 Doge would have sailed through. There are so many things that would have happened right. But this particular aspect is really frustrating

because we have very real dangers in the world. 126 00:15:21,730 --> 00:15:32,730 And and if we're going to sit back and act and say that the nonaggression way of thinking is it means that we should never defend ourselves. 127 00:15:32,730 --> 00:15:41,730 That is just not a sane way of thinking. So as I was reading your post and seeing that you were wrestling with this in very similar ways that I was. 128 00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:59,730 I just I think people that are honest libertarian minded people who really believe in limited government, they need to understand that this is more of a distraction from what we really need to do in our country than focusing on what people like you and me have been fighting for. 129 00:15:59,730 --> 00:16:09,730 But then also beyond that, it is it's really harmful to the security of a nation because we have to protect our liberties if we want to keep them. 130 00:16:09,730 --> 00:16:17,730 And there are very real threats to that liberty all around the world. Well, and there's so much sophistry, too, when you try and have these conversations with people. 131 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:38,730 And the fallacious arguments, they're clever and deceptive language. They sound plausible on the surface, but they're usually designed to mislead. The thing that had bothered me was I felt as if we were being forced to accept falsehoods about American history and world history in order to believe in noninterventionism. 132 00:16:38,730 --> 00:16:48,730 That, you know, as if Vladimir Putin or the Taliban or, you know, America's antagonists around the world don't have their own agency and aren't making their own decisions. 133 00:16:48,730 --> 00:17:02,730 No, it's the CIA's fault. Everything falls back to the CIA or Israel, the United States as the primary catalyst for why everything happens, which I just find to be completely ludicrous. 134 00:17:02,730 --> 00:17:16,730 I mean, Vladimir Putin didn't have to invade Ukraine. So back in 2013, the first time that this happened, when I started to call out Ron Paul and the Ron Paul Institute, it was like an antibiotic response. 135 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:25,730 I mean, they turned the guns on me immediately, Jim. And then I started to realize I'm like, oh, I'm not dealing with people who are interested in free inquiry and debate. 136 00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:34,730 I'm I'm I'm dealing with a cult of personality. And it was at that point in time, I really started to question more deeply some of the people who I'd hitched my wagon to. 137 00:17:34,730 --> 00:17:42,730 Now you were Thomas Massey's chief of staff from twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen. What was he like then? And what changed? 138 00:17:42,730 --> 00:17:47,730 Well, on this issue, I'm going to say that I don't know more. I don't think he's really much changed. 139 00:17:47,730 --> 00:17:55,730 You know, I was sitting in the office when he had walked out of his office for a moment, I was talking to a major donor of his. 140 00:17:55,730 --> 00:18:08,730 And I just happened to mention to him, I'm not a pacifist. And the guy responded and said, well, I am. And I and I have to say, and I was struggling with it a little bit along the way. 141 00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:12,730 By the way, never undermining Thomas. I mean, I did what he needed done. That was my job. 142 00:18:12,730 --> 00:18:19,730 Massey was not. But Massey, just just real quick, Massey was never obsessed with AIPAC and Israel ever before like that. 143 00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:31,730 Foreign policy was not his primary concern that and all of a sudden, you know, for whatever reason, he became polarized by Epstein and by Israel and AIPAC. 144 00:18:31,730 --> 00:18:37,730 So something definitely has changed. Maybe not his views on foreign policy per se, per se, but his targets have certainly changed. 145 00:18:37,730 --> 00:18:48,730 Yeah. And when it comes to AIPAC, listen, AIPAC never has liked him because of his he's never voted for, which I agree with, by the way, he's never voted for us subsidizing Israel. 146 00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:56,730 You know, I'm against giving money to foreign governments, not just Israel. I mean, and so they were already kind of negative with him. 147 00:18:56,730 --> 00:19:02,730 But he was always a very happy warrior in that regard. He didn't sit around and grouse about AIPAC. 148 00:19:02,730 --> 00:19:08,730 We mentioned it a couple of different times, but it wasn't any big deal. 149 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:17,730 And some of his personal tragedy, I think, has helped shift this a little bit. I'm just going to say very clearly his wife who passed away Rhonda, she was a great balance to him. 150 00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:24,730 They were both engineers from MIT. And, you know, you've got to understand Thomas when you're working with him, when he's doing this thing. 151 00:19:24,730 --> 00:19:30,730 She did, I think, better than anybody. It was obvious and evident. I knew Rhonda. She was a wonderful lady. 152 00:19:30,730 --> 00:19:37,730 And you take that kind of balance back and forth about, well, yeah, I'm with you, but you need to think about this. 153 00:19:37,730 --> 00:19:41,730 I think that doesn't exist as much with him as it did in the past. So that's part of it. 154 00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:54,730 So, Jim, am I misperceiving something here? Because it feels like about a year ago that maybe it was Rhonda's passing, but it feels like Thomas Massey deeply changed a year ago. 155 00:19:54,730 --> 00:20:01,730 I agree with you. I agree with you a hundred percent. And when he started getting it, by the way, he was attacked by Trump. 156 00:20:01,730 --> 00:20:04,730 And I agreed with him on this for calling for that vote on the CARES Act. 157 00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:09,730 I supported him. I supported him. You could go back in the records and see me supporting him wholeheartedly. 158 00:20:09,730 --> 00:20:18,730 But after his wife changed, you and I

were doing that together because we did a podcast together talking about these very things back then. 159 00:20:18,730 --> 00:20:24,730 Yeah, absolutely. So so so something changed, Jim. What happened was it? It couldn't have all just been Rhonda. 160 00:20:24,730 --> 00:20:28,730 It could not have all just been his wife. What happened? No, it's not. It's not only that. 161 00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:35,730 I just I think that he got tired of being a happy warrior. I mean, that's that's that's the best way I know to think about it. 162 00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:39,730 He he would be taking principled stands. He'd be attacked for it. 163 00:20:39,730 --> 00:20:48,730 I mean, Donald Trump was haranguing him over the CARES Act thing he did. He went against him twice in his in primary elections. 164 00:20:48,730 --> 00:20:53,730 And then this one, when all the guns came out, all the money was coming against him. 165 00:20:53,730 --> 00:21:00,730 Yeah, I think that he just he stopped having that balanced approach of just saying, listen, I got to do what I need to do. 166 00:21:00,730 --> 00:21:06,730 I'm going to keep my head down and move forward and not worry about what anyone thinks about me because I'm operating on principle. 167 00:21:06,730 --> 00:21:13,730 And I think he's left some areas of principle because of the reactions that he's having. 168 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:16,730 I'm not saying he's stopped being principled as a libertarian. 169 00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:22,730 I'm saying that he he has stopped understanding that the principle of politics is not to worry what people think about you. 170 00:21:22,730 --> 00:21:26,730 You know, I've gone around in politics and said, I don't give a damn what anyone thinks about me. 171 00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:30,730 I just got to do what's right. And I think that he became personal. 172 00:21:30,730 --> 00:21:38,730 Yeah, I've seen so many people get broken by Trump and it's deeply sad. And then, you know, we talk about issues of principle, Jim. 173 00:21:38,730 --> 00:21:41,730 But, you know, libertarians get mad when I remind them of this. 174 00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:51,730 But, you know, Donald Trump suspending the Jones Act has been a huge win for for libertarians and for the American people and for shipping here in the United States, 175 00:21:51,730 --> 00:21:56,730 especially since we've had some of these economic challenges with the the Strait of Hormuz. 176 00:21:56,730 --> 00:22:02,730 Thomas Massey opposed him getting rid of the or suspending the Jones Act. 177 00:22:02,730 --> 00:22:07,730 Thomas Massey was a protectionist when it came to the Jones Act because, well, guess what? 178 00:22:07,730 --> 00:22:11,730 In his district are a lot of shippers and a lot of shipping that goes on there. 179 00:22:11,730 --> 00:22:15,730 That's the exact same kind of problematic corruption that libertarians complain about. 180 00:22:15,730 --> 00:22:19,730 And yet a lot of libertarians don't

have the balls to call him out for that, Jim and Tom. 181 00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:20,730 And guess what? 182 00:22:20,730 --> 00:22:23,730 Donald Trump is more libertarian than Massey on that issue, apparently. 183 00:22:23,730 --> 00:22:32,730 Apparently. Absolutely true. Absolutely true. Listen, a lot of people, they know that for politicians on Capitol Hill, that Social Security is like the third rail and they always worry about that. 184 00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:37,730 You and I know that that is an unconstitutional program, but but that that's a third rail. 185 00:22:37,730 --> 00:22:40,730 A lot of people don't know the Jones Act has been a third rail. 186 00:22:40,730 --> 00:22:49,730 Thomas sat on the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee and it's like you don't you don't even get to be on that committee, by the way, if you're going to oppose the Jones Act. 187 00:22:49,730 --> 00:22:52,730 Right. And Donald Trump was right to do that. 188 00:22:52,730 --> 00:23:09,730 This is so long overdue. This is this is one of those deeply inbred problems in Washington, D.C., of which there are dozens, maybe more than dozens that that members of Congress will not pull away from because they don't read Article One, Section A of the Constitution. 189 00:23:09,730 --> 00:23:13,730 First of all, they don't read the Constitution in general. Yeah. 190 00:23:13,730 --> 00:23:17,730 I mean, here's the thing. I'd be willing to give them a pass, Jim, on things like that. 191 00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:26,730 I mean, especially for our friends, you have to do that. Not everybody. You're not going to agree with everybody on everything, but it wasn't just like the Jones Act or things like that that bothered me. 192 00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:34,730 You wrote, I didn't get Fox Newsed into turning on him. So what was it? What was the moment for you, Jim, that you started to question? 193 00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:45,730 I'm going to tell you the specific moment when I because I'd been holding it back for a little while when he posted that picture of him with Tucker Carlson and MTG and Joe Kent. 194 00:23:45,730 --> 00:23:54,730 And I reposted that. And I was so incensed when I saw it, because I think a lot. And you saw this having worked through the Libertarian Party. 195 00:23:54,730 --> 00:24:01,730 Well, all you're going to do is change bad people with other bad people under a different party name. 196 00:24:01,730 --> 00:24:12,730 I mean, look at all that happened with the Amesus caucus effort in the Libertarian Party and just the mess that happened with that when you had this group of people that said, hey, let's back off of all these other side issues. 197 00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:18,730 Let's get back to the economic principles and the constitutional principles that can make us a great nation again. 198 00:24:18,730 --> 00:24:28,730 And but you had all these other people who I've often said that the mantra, I think I've told you this in the past, the mantra of the Libertarian Party sort of became if we can make drugs and prostitution legal, we'll all be free. 199 00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:34,730 Like, you know, I can hear the arguments on that. But why do you think that that's really going to set us moving forward? 200 00:24:34,730 --> 00:24:48,730 We have these substantive issues that we have to address. But the second reason that that post bothered me is that you got to work in the areas where there is strength to win these battles. 201 00:24:48,730 --> 00:25:05,730 The organization I'm running right now, everything, most everything I've done in my 30 plus year political career has been to try to get a liberty minded constitutionalist minded focus into members of Congress and the party in the states and everywhere. 202 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:10,730 We the only place to do that is there. We've already proven the Libertarian Party is not a vehicle for that. 203 00:25:10,730 --> 00:25:12,730 How are you going to start another vehicle that's going to get that done? 204 00:25:12,730 --> 00:25:23,730 So I think that's that's the moment where I said, listen, this this is getting way out of hand. And then when he put up the the hex thing, I'm like, OK, you're arguing about the ending. 205 00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:30,730 Let's get to that. For me, it was it was when he was hanging out with Ro Khanna and blathering about the Epstein files. 206 00:25:30,730 --> 00:25:37,730 And I was going to release all these names. And then when he got on the floor, he read the names of people who weren't even involved and implicating them in crimes. 207 00:25:37,730 --> 00:25:45,730 And then also that went back on the floor and read names that were already public, which it just seemed to me like the second Russia gate hoax. 208 00:25:45,730 --> 00:25:54,730 And then, of course, you know, pose proud to be endorsed by Candace Owens and others, you know, slandering the widow of Charlie Kirk after his murder. 209 00:25:54,730 --> 00:26:05,730 I want nothing to do with any of those people. And in September, Massey filed eight articles of impeachment against Pete Hegseth over the Iran war, boat strikes and saying, Hegseth is breaking the law. 210 00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:14,730 You said I reject this offer effort. Why? Absolutely. Because well, because listen, we can argue about whether the war should have happened. 211 00:26:14,730 --> 00:26:19,730 Certainly there's a political argument, maybe against it in terms of you're going into a midterm election. 212 00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:28,730 That actually is maybe a little bit more of a courageous substance in Donald Trump than brash, you know, warmongering. 213 00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:42,730 You I think you and I agree this has not been a warmongering war. He's actually he's followed the law. Listen, if Thomas doesn't like the war, which he did do, you go ahead and get Congress to say, no, you can't do it. 214 00:26:42,730 --> 00:26:51,730 Congress gave Donald

Trump the specific authority that he's used. Notice he's done hardly anything outside the 60 day window and he has informed Congress what to do. 215 00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:56,730 That's what the War Powers Act says. Congress gave the president that authority. 216 00:26:56,730 --> 00:27:07,730 Now, we can argue about whether he should have done it or not. But I can't argue against his rationale in terms of what his end goal here is to keep Iran from having a nuclear weapon. 217 00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:16,730 Let's be honest here. Everyone needs to listen to Raymond Ibrahim and his very clear history of what Islam is about. 218 00:27:16,730 --> 00:27:35,730 It is not a it's a religion of war. And there's a real problem with what these some of these people, at least if not most, intend to do. And Iran, with that kind of attitude, having a nuclear weapon is very dangerous, not to mention the fact they've killed thousands of Americans in these last 40 years, 40 plus years. 219 00:27:35,730 --> 00:27:45,730 And they killed tens of thousands of people in the region by supporting terror. So I think that that is it's really an absurd notion. You have to have two things in politics. 220 00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:53,730 You need to have the right principles. Absolutely. But you also have to be able to move through the system to get to the changes you want. 221 00:27:53,730 --> 00:28:00,730 So, for example, the Social Security system is is not constitutional at all. There's no way the federal government should be doing that. 222 00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:10,730 But we're so deep into this. What do you do? Well, you do something like Trump accounts where you you make it a defined contribution, not a defined benefit approach. 223 00:28:10,730 --> 00:28:18,730 And that's just a really clear example. You have to know how to get to where we need to go, which is Article One Section eight of the Constitution. 224 00:28:18,730 --> 00:28:30,730 That's what you and I have been fighting for forever, that that's the right battle that we need to be having. We don't need to be going off trying to impeach Pete Hegseth, which, by the way, if you think there's impeachment, then you have to do it at the president. 225 00:28:30,730 --> 00:28:41,730 I find that slightly cowardly and maybe very cowardly that he didn't do it against the president right there on the floor, because if that's what he thinks the problem is, the commander in chief is the one that makes the decision. 226 00:28:41,730 --> 00:28:49,730 The secretary of war is the one who just carries it out. So it really we see this so much in the libertarian movement. 227 00:28:49,730 --> 00:29:02,730 They get so focused on the things that really are not going to matter for people day to day. And it's why it's been. So let's talk about that for a moment. Let's talk about that for a moment, the inability to focus on things that actually matter day to day. 228 00:29:02,730 --> 00:29:10,730 You know, I'm not thinking about going and getting a prostitute today. You once called Amash one of the most honest men we've ever had in Congress. 229 00:29:10,730 --> 00:29:19,730 But then you told him libertarians focus on weed and porn and prostitution. And this is the movement that defeated the Mises coalition. Explain that. 230 00:29:19,730 --> 00:29:30,730 Yeah, listen. And by the way, there was a real time to say that about Justin. I love Justin. I think he's a good guy, but he's gone even more away from this whole principle. 231 00:29:30,730 --> 00:29:41,730 He's always been a TDS, never Trumper from the moment of the beginning. But listen, when you get when you take a look at this, what is it that makes a society strong? 232 00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:50,730 Liberty makes a society strong, where people, as Milton Freeman often said, make their own decisions when they're the ones who carry the decision for them. 233 00:29:50,730 --> 00:30:05,730 I've said many, many times that the number one thing that we need in this country is to allow everyone to reap all the rewards of the good decisions they make and to be subject to the consequences of the bad decisions that they make. 234 00:30:05,730 --> 00:30:16,730 That doesn't mean there's no safety net, but that should be in the states. There's not that there's no safety net, but you put that safety net for people who could not control their own decisions and the outcomes of them. 235 00:30:16,730 --> 00:30:25,730 Someone that's disabled or indigent in some form or fashion that had nothing to do with them. There's a place for that, but you need to do that in the states. 236 00:30:25,730 --> 00:30:47,730 But when we take the decision process out of individuals, we get to a real problem. But there's another aspect of this, the Libertine approach of the Liberty movement that is only focused on things like homosexual marriage, homosexual rights, transgender rights, drugs and prostitution. 237 00:30:47,730 --> 00:31:01,730 I mean, I understand every citizen, no matter what they choose to do in their lives, should have all the benefits of being a citizen in the country, due process, rule of law, all that kind of thing. 238 00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:08,730 But you don't especially go after the worst aspects of culture or anything that might have a problem with this. 239 00:31:08,730 --> 00:31:23,730 This is why I'm pro-life because I think that that builds a culture of death. But the problem is when you focus on those areas and the liberties related to them and wherever you fall on any of those, you're missing the fundamental points. 240 00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:29,730 Those are all decisions that have to be made in the culture. We have government making decisions for us and that's the real problem. 241 00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:38,730 I completely agree. Now, in February of 2023, the Libertarian Party co-organized the Rage Against the War Machine rally at the Lincoln Memorial. 242 00:31:38,730 --> 00:31:44,730 The

Daily Beast counted about a half dozen Russian flags and a couple of Soviet hammer and sickle flags. 243 00:31:44,730 --> 00:31:51,730 One woman said that Putin is a nationalist leader. We need more of them. Another called him a Russian patriot. 244 00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:55,730 Do you remember that moment? What went through your head when you saw that? 245 00:31:55,730 --> 00:32:00,730 I mean, you listen, I've I've been negative on war for a long period of time. 246 00:32:00,730 --> 00:32:07,730 I think there are reasons to be suspicious of the military industrial complex and a lot of these problems that happen in government. 247 00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:20,730 But seeing that sort of thing, which is really not a linkage that that whole rally was not a linkage with America and what made us a great country of all the imperfect countries out there. 248 00:32:20,730 --> 00:32:27,730 It is a linkage with internationalist interests. I mean, when you see Soviet flags there, what are you even talking about? 249 00:32:27,730 --> 00:32:34,730 Like, don't even call yourself a libertarian and hold up the hammer and sickle. You've got to be nuts. You got to be crazy. 250 00:32:34,730 --> 00:32:38,730 And you shouldn't be. You shouldn't be seen and photographed those people. They're not your friends. 251 00:32:38,730 --> 00:32:44,730 Two days after Russia invaded Ukraine, the Ron Paul Institute's Daniel McAdams wrote that, quote, 252 00:32:44,730 --> 00:32:54,730 today's Ukraine nightmare is the product of U.S. foreign policy and that the end of America's empire is, quote, is not to be mourned, but celebrated, celebrated. 253 00:32:54,730 --> 00:32:59,730 Jim, is that non-intervention or blame America first? What's going on over at the Ron Paul Institute? 254 00:32:59,730 --> 00:33:13,730 Well, listen, Ron has so pushed this idea of non-interventionism, you know, the way that he uses the revolution thing where he turns it into love right in the middle of it. 255 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:18,730 I mean, that all sounds good on the surface. And there's some aspect of it that I think is real. 256 00:33:18,730 --> 00:33:27,730 But the non-aggression policy, as I wrote in that repost of your post earlier this week, the non-intervention policy, 257 00:33:27,730 --> 00:33:35,730 if what you mean by that is that the government and other people cannot intervene in your life, I'm a non-interventionist. 258 00:33:35,730 --> 00:33:44,730 But if you're going to say that that the dangers around the world, which are very real, are never going to be addressed in any fashion. 259 00:33:44,730 --> 00:33:53,730 And I think we both agree. Do it first diplomatically, by the way, in the manner of Donald Trump, not in the manner of George Bush or Barack Obama, which is this squeamish. 260 00:33:53,730 --> 00:33:55,730 But let's just try to be nice. 261 00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:59,730 But Jim, is is is you is Putin's war? Is that America's fault? 262 00:33:59,730 --> 00:34:16,730 No, it's obscene. I will say this. The one thing that I'll give anyone that has any pushback on that as it relates to the situation with Ukraine is the Obama administration meddling in Ukraine's elections that stirred up some problems. 263 00:34:16,730 --> 00:34:25,730 When you think about Iran, I think it's fair to point out that we allowed the Ayatollah Khomeini to come in and we kicked out the Shah. 264 00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:32,730 These are stupid foreign policies that we never should have done, but they don't point to our fault in it. 265 00:34:32,730 --> 00:34:36,730 It's those countries that are dealing with what they're dealing with. 266 00:34:36,730 --> 00:34:46,730 Ukraine and FYI, do we support the fact that Zelensky will not hold elections? 267 00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:50,730 Like the fault is with a guy that won't do that. 268 00:34:50,730 --> 00:34:54,730 Jim, I love this. It's a great conversation. I wish we could go on for an hour. 269 00:34:54,730 --> 00:34:59,730 I've only got a few more minutes and I'm going to talk to somebody about conservatives being de-banked. 270 00:34:59,730 --> 00:35:05,730 But before you go, were the founding fathers of this country non-interventionists? 271 00:35:05,730 --> 00:35:22,730 They absolutely were not. The very first war that we undertook was from possibly the most libertarian president that we had, Thomas Jefferson, who when the Barbary pirates were enslaving Americans and Europeans in the Mediterranean. 272 00:35:22,730 --> 00:35:32,730 And he went to them and they sent diplomats over who said to them, "Listen, we just want to be friends. What's the problem here? We're not involved with Europe's wars with you. Why are you doing this?" 273 00:35:32,730 --> 00:35:38,730 And their response was, "The Quran tells us that you're infidels, so we have a right to deal with you the way we do." 274 00:35:38,730 --> 00:35:47,730 In the face of that, you cannot be a pacifist. You have to have some degree of intervention, which we did and we won that battle. 275 00:35:47,730 --> 00:35:49,730 So I think there's a place for that. 276 00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:56,490 Let's talk about the banking in April, 2023, a Memphis ministry called indigenous advance. 277 00:35:56,490 --> 00:36:00,730 This group has worked with Ugandan ministry since 2015, helping orphans and prisoners 278 00:36:00,730 --> 00:36:06,230 and trafficking victims opened a letter from bank of America that said, quote, we've determined 279 00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:08,250 you're operating in a business type. 280 00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:10,890 We've chosen not to service a business type. 281 00:36:10,890 --> 00:36:14,150 Now, the account held more than 270,000 dollars. 282 00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:18,450 The founder, Stephen Hap, had to tell nine employees to wait an extra week for their 283 00:36:18,450 --> 00:36:19,950 paychecks. 284 00:36:19,950 --> 00:36:23,770 Their lawyer told Congress, these people don't live

paycheck to paycheck. 285 00:36:23,770 --> 00:36:25,450 These people live meal to meal. 286 00:36:25,450 --> 00:36:30,350 Now, when they called the banks, the staff would only read from previously sent notices. 287 00:36:30,350 --> 00:36:34,350 Bank of America swears that their religion had nothing to do with it. 288 00:36:34,350 --> 00:36:40,190 And in July of 2021, the family council of Arkansas, run by Jerry Cox, they got an email 289 00:36:40,190 --> 00:36:45,050 from a JP Morgan owned payment processor that said, unfortunately, we can no longer support 290 00:36:45,050 --> 00:36:46,050 your business. 291 00:36:46,050 --> 00:36:50,030 We wish you all the luck in the future and get messages like these from social media 292 00:36:50,030 --> 00:36:51,030 all the time. 293 00:36:51,030 --> 00:36:55,110 The council says within 60 seconds, our account was terminated. 294 00:36:55,110 --> 00:36:58,710 Former governor Sam Brown Brownback opened an account for his national committee for 295 00:36:58,710 --> 00:37:02,030 religious freedom at a chase chase Branson, Washington. 296 00:37:02,030 --> 00:37:06,030 Chase later, he walked in to make a deposit and was told your account has been canceled. 297 00:37:06,030 --> 00:37:11,630 He says the staff told him the decision was, quote, secret, bizarre and irrevocable. 298 00:37:11,630 --> 00:37:15,430 And that Chase later offered to reconsider if he handed over his donor list. 299 00:37:15,430 --> 00:37:16,430 What the hell? 300 00:37:16,430 --> 00:37:20,230 A bank asking a religious freedom group for its donor list. 301 00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:23,630 Chase said that it would never exit a client over politics or religion. 302 00:37:23,630 --> 00:37:28,230 Well, on Wednesday, the office of the comptroller of the currency released a 45 page report 303 00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:31,570 on nine of the biggest banks of America. 304 00:37:31,570 --> 00:37:36,030 And Dylan Tocar reported in the Wall Street Journal that JP Morgan's own payment subsidiary, 305 00:37:36,030 --> 00:37:42,510 WePay kept a screening list that included MAGA, Make America Great, and America First. 306 00:37:42,510 --> 00:37:49,110 In September of 2021, WePay shut down a merchant selling conservative t-shirts and hats bogus. 307 00:37:49,110 --> 00:37:50,110 The red flags. 308 00:37:50,110 --> 00:37:53,790 A Trump won three by five foot flag with grommets. 309 00:37:53,790 --> 00:37:55,550 Stephanie, take it out of our store quick. 310 00:37:55,550 --> 00:37:59,670 A Biden illegitimate t-shirt and a sticker that said the big lie grommets. 311 00:37:59,670 --> 00:38:01,630 They flagged the grommets, people. 312 00:38:01,630 --> 00:38:05,510 The comptroller, Jonathan Gold, says this is irrefutable evidence that the nation's largest 313 00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:09,910 banks have denied, debanked, and discriminated against customers and lawful businesses. 314 00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:11,030 And that's not just happening here. 315 00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:13,390 It's happening overseas as well. 316 00:38:13,390 --> 00:38:14,870 Nick Anthony is my next guest. 317 00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:18,790 He's a research fellow at the Cato Institute's Center for Monetary and Financial Alternatives. 318 00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:21,510 He wrote Digital Currency or Digital Control. 319 00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:22,670 He's justified before Congress. 320 00:38:22,670 --> 00:38:27,030 And in January, he published one of the most detailed studies out there on debanking. 321 00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:29,670 You might disagree with me on some of this, which is why he's here. 322 00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:31,230 Nick, welcome to the Wake Up America show. 323 00:38:31,230 --> 00:38:32,390 Good to see you, sir. 324 00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:33,590 It's good to see you as well. 325 00:38:33,590 --> 00:38:34,950 Thank you for having me here. 326 00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:39,630 Are people being discriminated against because of their political views and because of their 327 00:38:39,630 --> 00:38:43,810 religious views by our banking system? 328 00:38:43,810 --> 00:38:45,250 I don't think so. 329 00:38:45,250 --> 00:38:50,950 All the stories that you mentioned make very concerning headlines, especially when we're 330 00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:53,790 looking at the state of politics today. 331 00:38:53,790 --> 00:38:58,090 But when I dug into them, I had concerns as well. 332 00:38:58,090 --> 00:38:59,950 And I can see how some of this comes up. 333 00:38:59,950 --> 00:39:05,870 So for example, with Indigenous Advanced Ministries, that seems gravely concerning that a religious 334 00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:11,670 group who is clearly doing good work, not just in this country, but around the world, 335 00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:13,410 had their accounts shut down. 336 00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:18,350 But then when I started to look into the story, I see that they actually opened a debt collection 337 00:39:18,350 --> 00:39:20,910 agency in Uganda. 338 00:39:20,910 --> 00:39:24,510 And that's very different from running a church. 339 00:39:24,510 --> 00:39:30,470 With the case of Sam Brownback, they were also engaging in political endorsements. 340 00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:36,330 And in that case, tax requirements mean that you have to get more information about how 341 00:39:36,330 --> 00:39:38,530 the organization is run. 342 00:39:38,530 --> 00:39:46,270 And then also with the people who are selling Donald Trump merch or MAGA merch, that was 343 00:39:46,270 --> 00:39:53,910 right at the time of January 6, when the FBI was ordering banks to hand over any information 344 00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:58,070 that they had that had any tie to Donald Trump. 345 00:39:58,070 --> 00:40:05,470 And that's my core concern with all of this, is that where the headlines have grabbed us, 346 00:40:05,470 --> 00:40:10,470 and especially have grabbed our hearts, we're missing the underlying cause of this. 347

00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:16,650 And a lot of it is the government stepping in, saying what banks are allowed to do, who 348 00:40:16,650 --> 00:40:20,470 they're allowed to serve, and when they're allowed to do it. 349 00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:25,270 And all of that is missing from this latest report from the Office of the Comptroller of 350 00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:26,570 the Currency. 351 00:40:26,570 --> 00:40:34,370 And if we set policies based on just the headline talk, we're still going to be in this mess. 352 00:40:34,370 --> 00:40:39,270 It happened with Operation Choke Point back in 2013, when the government was shutting 353 00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:41,750 down financial services. 354 00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:46,630 And now it's repeating again, and if we don't fix this problem at the core, at the root 355 00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:51,030 of it, we're going to see this again, probably not even in another 10 years. 356 00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:52,830 We'll probably see it in another five years. 357 00:40:52,830 --> 00:41:00,670 Now, WePay had a screening list that included MAGA and America First and Trump One flag 358 00:41:00,670 --> 00:41:02,730 that was considered to be a red flag. 359 00:41:02,730 --> 00:41:05,590 But no government regulator wrote that list. 360 00:41:05,590 --> 00:41:08,630 Isn't that just the bank's bias, pretty plain and simple? 361 00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:11,650 Well, that gets a little tough. 362 00:41:11,650 --> 00:41:14,950 That is part of the list, not all of it. 363 00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:21,330 As far as I know, the FBI was not flagging the flags and the grommets and all of that. 364 00:41:21,330 --> 00:41:29,990 But the FBI did write to banks saying we need anything that has a line item that says MAGA, 365 00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:36,070 Donald Trump, Nancy Pelosi, it even went so far as flagging, if I recall correctly, Bass 366 00:41:36,070 --> 00:41:38,790 Pro Shop and Dick's Sporting Goods. 367 00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:46,310 And so all of those were flagged by the government as sort of red flags, quote unquote. 368 00:41:46,310 --> 00:41:51,230 And that could have been part of what led them to make that decision. 369 00:41:51,230 --> 00:41:59,190 I think WePay and JP Morgan need to make a statement to say whether or not that was the 370 00:41:59,190 --> 00:42:00,190 case. 371 00:42:00,190 --> 00:42:06,350 And unfortunately, that's something that's missing from this report and isn't addressed in any way. 372 00:42:06,350 --> 00:42:13,790 Now the OCC found a JP Morgan employee at a supervisor's direction, scrubbed notes, calling 373 00:42:13,790 --> 00:42:19,950 a retailer, quote, right wing and its videos tasteless and gun centric. 374 00:42:19,950 --> 00:42:25,710 So what do you think that tells us when a bank's editing its own files in that manner? 375 00:42:25,710 --> 00:42:27,230 That's a tough one. 376 00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:30,350 I think at its face, it's concerning. 377 00:42:30,350 -->

00:42:36,390 It seems like people are going back through to clean up the record. 378 00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:40,190 But at the same time, I think banks should have the freedom. 379 00:42:40,190 --> 00:42:44,290 So there is pieces of this that are rooted in government. 380 00:42:44,290 --> 00:42:48,870 But I also want to be clear, I think banks should have the freedom to say that they don't 381 00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:56,070 like the controversy that's around some political movement or political candidate and that this 382 00:42:56,070 --> 00:43:04,170 business has gone too far by saying like not just we support Donald Trump or we support 383 00:43:04,170 --> 00:43:10,150 Joe Biden, but we want everyone kicked out of the country and we think they are the devil 384 00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:11,390 and all of that. 385 00:43:11,390 --> 00:43:15,910 If they think that that's going too far, they should have the freedom to say, that's not 386 00:43:15,910 --> 00:43:17,110 our values. 387 00:43:17,110 --> 00:43:19,750 We want to see you go to another bank. 388 00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:24,790 And that's what some of the report did show is that some of these decisions were rooted 389 00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:31,550 in company-based values around things like oil, guns, and the like. 390 00:43:31,550 --> 00:43:39,270 I think Citi, for example, had a policy about firearms where they didn't like if, and this 391 00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:44,830 is if I recall it correctly, they didn't like that some retailers were selling to people 392 00:43:44,830 --> 00:43:48,550 below the age of 21 going beyond the law there. 393 00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:51,470 And that's because they decided that's their institutional policy. 394 00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:55,190 Well, but we were talking about what they were selling below the age of 21. 395 00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:56,750 Are we talking about firearms here? 396 00:43:56,750 --> 00:43:57,750 Yes. 397 00:43:57,750 --> 00:43:58,750 Yes, sorry. 398 00:43:58,750 --> 00:44:01,130 Which is perfectly legal. 399 00:44:01,130 --> 00:44:06,150 You can buy firearms at 18 years old in most states. 400 00:44:06,150 --> 00:44:11,190 So their problem was that their policy was that they shouldn't be, they won't support 401 00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:14,150 anyone who sells firearms to anyone under the age of 21. 402 00:44:14,150 --> 00:44:15,150 Yes, correct. 403 00:44:15,150 --> 00:44:16,150 Sure. 404 00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:17,150 In the way that I... 405 00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:18,150 Go ahead. 406 00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:19,150 Sorry, go on. 407 00:44:19,150 --> 00:44:24,670 Could the bank be able to discriminate against a citizen's ability to do business with them 408 00:44:24,670 --> 00:44:27,630 for exercising a fundamental individual right? 409 00:44:27,630 --> 00:44:29,510 Yeah, I think so. 410 00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:36,150 I mean, I know that's a hot take to have, but I really view it as simple as any business 411 00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:42,110 should be able to say if you can't come in here without at least shirt, pants, and shoes 412 00:44:42,110 --> 00:44:43,110 on. 413 00:44:43,110 --> 00:44:47,810 This goes beyond that and clearly gets into more controversial waters, but I think they 414 00:44:47,810 --> 00:44:52,390 should be able to have the freedom to make that decision about how they want to run their 415 00:44:52,390 --> 00:44:54,890 business and who they're going to serve. 416 00:44:54,890 --> 00:45:00,270 And at the same time though, I'll say they should suffer the social consequences for 417 00:45:00,270 --> 00:45:01,270 it. 418 00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:07,010 So if they make that hot take and say, "We don't want to do business with this," they 419 00:45:07,010 --> 00:45:12,590 should feel societal repercussions if people want to say, "That's not cool. 420 00:45:12,590 --> 00:45:14,070 We're not okay with it. 421 00:45:14,070 --> 00:45:17,910 We don't want your business if that's how you're going to run your business," and they 422 00:45:17,910 --> 00:45:20,030 should feel those pressures. 423 00:45:20,030 --> 00:45:26,330 And that's how we should solve this, not by coming in and saying, as many have proposed, 424 00:45:26,330 --> 00:45:32,070 that banks should effectively be able to or be unable to deny anything. 425 00:45:32,070 --> 00:45:37,910 They should be sort of like a open network where it's mandated by the government that 426 00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:40,070 there is no saying no. 427 00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:45,630 Okay, well allow me to respectfully disagree with you and give you my reasoning for that 428 00:45:45,630 --> 00:45:50,670 and then you wrestle with it and tell me your thoughts to my response to this. 429 00:45:50,670 --> 00:45:54,070 The reason why I would disagree with you, why I don't believe that a bank should be 430 00:45:54,070 --> 00:46:00,950 able to de-bank someone for their own personal values is because in 2016 when I ran for president 431 00:46:00,950 --> 00:46:07,430 as a libertarian, I debated Gary Johnson on the question of the masterpiece cake issue, 432 00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:11,910 the question of whether or not a Christian baker should be required or forced to bake 433 00:46:11,910 --> 00:46:16,030 a cake for a homosexual couple if they disagree with it. 434 00:46:16,030 --> 00:46:23,990 And I warred with Gary and said that the private business should be allowed to defend their 435 00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:29,670 own social values and to tell the gay couple that they should go somewhere else to have 436 00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:31,070 their cake be made. 437 00:46:31,070 --> 00:46:35,710 And if it sounds like hypocrisy on my part for arguing that the private business should 438 00:46:35,710 --> 00:46:40,350 be allowed to discriminate, when I say that the bank should not be allowed to discriminate 439 00:46:40,350 --> 00:46:44,910 is because I think that there's an argument to be made,

Nick, that banks really are not 440 00:46:44,910 --> 00:46:52,670 private companies that are operating within the context of a libertarian free market. 441 00:46:52,670 --> 00:46:58,310 Banks are the most regulated and the most government controlled institution in the United 442 00:46:58,310 --> 00:47:03,430 States, far more than even I would say the second most regulated industry, which be farming. 443 00:47:03,430 --> 00:47:09,230 But when it comes to the question of the banks, the banks are to some extent a creation of 444 00:47:09,230 --> 00:47:10,230 government. 445 00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:17,150 They're FDIC insured, they're all regulated throughout the Federal Reserve System and 446 00:47:17,150 --> 00:47:23,430 all governed by the monetary rules that are created by Congress. 447 00:47:23,430 --> 00:47:29,090 So you can say that the banks should be able to have their own views on whether or not 448 00:47:29,090 --> 00:47:31,870 someone comes in without a shirt or shoes. 449 00:47:31,870 --> 00:47:34,610 I think those are reasonable expectations. 450 00:47:34,610 --> 00:47:39,190 But when you're talking about protecting an individual right, I think that the question 451 00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:45,430 about there's this concept of liberty and theory versus liberty and practice. 452 00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:48,850 And what you're talking about to me sounds like liberty and theory, but it's not liberty 453 00:47:48,850 --> 00:47:52,790 and practice because liberty and practice would mean if you're not able to actually—you 454 00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:55,910 can say, "Oh, you have a Second Amendment right all day long." 455 00:47:55,910 --> 00:47:59,550 But if you can't actually practice your Second Amendment right, then you don't have liberty 456 00:47:59,550 --> 00:48:00,550 in reality. 457 00:48:00,550 --> 00:48:03,430 It's just a concept of liberty of theory versus practicality. 458 00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:04,790 You agree, disagree? 459 00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:11,730 I disagree, and I caution you very much on a few points. 460 00:48:11,730 --> 00:48:18,210 The first, I definitely hear you and agree that banks are the most highly regulated or 461 00:48:18,210 --> 00:48:22,050 financial institutions writ large are the most highly regulated. 462 00:48:22,050 --> 00:48:26,570 And that's a problem, not a goal. 463 00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:33,910 And what you're describing is regulating them even more so, making them even more entwined 464 00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:39,490 with the government by having the government decide who can be their customers. 465 00:48:39,490 --> 00:48:42,670 And I think that is going in the wrong direction. 466 00:48:42,670 --> 00:48:48,330 That's basically taking them from having a government hand over them to just putting 467 00:48:48,330 --> 00:48:49,330 them into the government. 468 00:48:49,330 --> 00:48:53,530 I mean, it's basically a government-run bank at that point. 469 00:48:53,530 --> 00:48:57,290 And that's the wrong direction to be headed towards. 470 00:48:57,290 --> 00:49:01,970 And on the difference between theory and practice, I think it's really important to be clear 471 00:49:01,970 --> 00:49:06,150 that we have thousands of banks in this country. 472 00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:11,290 And cases where people for the Second Amendment specifically have had their accounts denied 473 00:49:11,290 --> 00:49:16,410 because they're running a gun manufacturer or retailer or what have you, they've been 474 00:49:16,410 --> 00:49:18,390 shut down for that. 475 00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:23,130 But what we see is that they were able to open an account with another bank within the 476 00:49:23,130 --> 00:49:25,190 month or a couple of months. 477 00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:26,730 And that's not an easy practice. 478 00:49:26,730 --> 00:49:29,730 I'm not trying to downplay that by any means. 479 00:49:29,730 --> 00:49:35,490 It's incredibly frustrating and just incredibly annoying because you have to patch all the 480 00:49:35,490 --> 00:49:40,650 different payments that you had set up along the way with bill pay and all of that. 481 00:49:40,650 --> 00:49:46,050 But it is still there and it's still the options that we have. 482 00:49:46,050 --> 00:49:50,590 We don't have a complete ban across the system. 483 00:49:50,590 --> 00:49:55,810 We see the government is able to step in and say everyone has to stop doing this. 484 00:49:55,810 --> 00:49:58,010 I can understand why you feel this way. 485 00:49:58,010 --> 00:50:00,690 And I think I used to feel the way that you do. 486 00:50:00,690 --> 00:50:05,330 But here is what has changed my mind to my current view of this is that I think that 487 00:50:05,330 --> 00:50:11,010 the problem with the libertarian theory on this is that it lacks a fundamental understanding 488 00:50:11,010 --> 00:50:13,450 of the nature of political power. 489 00:50:13,450 --> 00:50:20,470 And I could use an example and say that when we look at how social media under the Biden 490 00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:27,250 administration was being pressured to censor conservatives and libertarians, I myself many 491 00:50:27,250 --> 00:50:34,570 times was, and I use the word censor specifically because government officials asked for social 492 00:50:34,570 --> 00:50:40,530 media to ban certain individuals, which is the literal technical definition of censorship. 493 00:50:40,530 --> 00:50:44,170 We're not talking about it's a private company and it can do it at once. 494 00:50:44,170 --> 00:50:47,890 We're talking about the government leaning on these social media agencies. 495 00:50:47,890 --> 00:50:51,210 And when I talk about the question of the theory of power that I think libertarians 496 00:50:51,210 --> 00:50:59,050 misunderstand here or are missing the practice of liberty versus theory. 497 00:50:59,050 --> 00:51:03,930 I don't believe that in a world where Donald Trump had not been the president

of the United 498 00:51:03,930 --> 00:51:08,210 States, that there would have been another bank for them to go to. 499 00:51:08,210 --> 00:51:13,690 So what would have had in theory, what you say is right, but it sort of ignores the larger 500 00:51:13,690 --> 00:51:20,050 picture of the political power that was being enacted because people like, for example, 501 00:51:20,050 --> 00:51:23,930 Mark Zuckerberg and the social media agency, all of these social media companies and major 502 00:51:23,930 --> 00:51:30,210 tech companies like Jeff Bezos of Amazon and Mark Zuckerberg and I think Elon Musk is a 503 00:51:30,210 --> 00:51:31,950 true principled actor. 504 00:51:31,950 --> 00:51:36,850 But for the other tech companies that were standing at Donald Trump next to him in his 505 00:51:36,850 --> 00:51:41,130 inauguration, they're doing that for cynical purposes because they want to be close to 506 00:51:41,130 --> 00:51:44,650 power and whoever is in power is the person that gets to make the rules. 507 00:51:44,650 --> 00:51:48,570 This isn't a world that I want to live in, Nick, I'd rather live in the libertarian theory 508 00:51:48,570 --> 00:51:53,450 world where a bank is a private company and the federal reserve doesn't exist. 509 00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:58,330 But if Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden were the president of the United States, I don't believe 510 00:51:58,330 --> 00:52:04,170 that there would have been another bank for them to go to because all of those big companies 511 00:52:04,170 --> 00:52:08,570 would have cozied up to whoever was in power and done whatever it was that they told him. 512 00:52:08,570 --> 00:52:13,690 And what we saw, not in theory, but in practice, was that the government, a left wing government 513 00:52:13,690 --> 00:52:19,570 stepped in and asked for censorship of libertarian and conservative voices. 514 00:52:19,570 --> 00:52:26,170 So I guess what I'm asking you to is to consider that the libertarian theory and practice still 515 00:52:26,170 --> 00:52:32,330 exist within a larger bubble of the question of who has political power at that moment. 516 00:52:32,330 --> 00:52:35,850 And those are important questions when we're talking about this, right? 517 00:52:35,850 --> 00:52:42,650 Well, I think I'm a little confused because what you said only really supports my stance 518 00:52:42,650 --> 00:52:48,010 in that I don't want more government control of the banks. 519 00:52:48,010 --> 00:52:53,290 I don't want the government to be mandating who banks allow to be customers. 520 00:52:53,290 --> 00:53:01,450 And that's what I'm against in this conversation of saying that the government needs to establish 521 00:53:01,450 --> 00:53:04,090 the criteria for allowing customers. 522 00:53:04,090 --> 00:53:08,730 I think it should be only the banks are deciding that we should not be adding more regulations 523 00:53:08,730 --> 00:53:09,730 on the banks. 524 00:53:09,730 --> 00:53:12,330 Instead, we should be scaling them back. 525 00:53:12,330 --> 00:53:17,690 And on the social media issue, I fully agree that that was absolutely a problem. 526 00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:23,010 We saw the same thing with banks when Operation Choke Point was happening, both the official 527 00:53:23,010 --> 00:53:30,090 version in 2012 to 2015 and the unofficial version in the 2020s, where the government 528 00:53:30,090 --> 00:53:34,130 was stepping in and saying, "You need to stop serving these people." 529 00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:36,290 And I think that's wholly wrong. 530 00:53:36,290 --> 00:53:39,290 That should not be the deciding factor here. 531 00:53:39,290 --> 00:53:44,170 I will say, though, on the practice under Joe Biden, when this was happening, people 532 00:53:44,170 --> 00:53:48,250 were able to get accounts with other financial institutions. 533 00:53:48,250 --> 00:53:53,690 And even on social media, people were able to turn to things like Noster and alternative 534 00:53:53,690 --> 00:53:55,570 social media to escape that. 535 00:53:55,570 --> 00:54:00,090 So I think there still are bastions of freedom available. 536 00:54:00,090 --> 00:54:03,330 They're not the ideal by any means. 537 00:54:03,330 --> 00:54:07,530 But I think we have to keep that in mind when we're thinking about the practical reality 538 00:54:07,530 --> 00:54:08,530 of it. 539 00:54:08,530 --> 00:54:12,090 Well, but I mean, what we're really looking at here is the boiling frog. 540 00:54:12,090 --> 00:54:16,170 Just because it's not happening this moment, just because you're not dead in this moment, 541 00:54:16,170 --> 00:54:18,130 doesn't mean that the frog isn't being boiled. 542 00:54:18,130 --> 00:54:23,730 I mean, you have to look at what the left and the Democrats have done in the past to 543 00:54:23,730 --> 00:54:26,090 get a good idea for what they're going to do in the future. 544 00:54:26,090 --> 00:54:31,990 So if Joe Biden had won his next term, what's to say that he wouldn't have stepped in and 545 00:54:31,990 --> 00:54:37,010 done something to make it so that conservatives and libertarians would not be able to find 546 00:54:37,010 --> 00:54:39,010 a banking institution? 547 00:54:39,010 --> 00:54:41,890 They're slowly putting the vice around our neck. 548 00:54:41,890 --> 00:54:46,590 And so the question is, is like, at what point can we stop them before they do something 549 00:54:46,590 --> 00:54:47,590 like that? 550 00:54:47,590 --> 00:54:56,090 We need some reasonable requests like the $10,000 reporting threshold, for example, should 551 00:54:56,090 --> 00:55:01,170 be indexed to inflation, which would put it, I think, around $86,000, or repealed outright, 552 00:55:01,170 --> 00:55:03,410 which is the ideal scenario. 553 00:55:03,410 --> 00:55:06,430 So we have to take reasonable steps to try and protect our liberty. 554 00:55:06,430 --> 00:55:08,670 We can't get everything that we want. 555 00:55:08,670 -->

00:55:12,870 We can't live in a perfect libertarian world, again, without a Federal Reserve. 556 00:55:12,870 --> 00:55:18,730 But what I'm saying is that the question comes down to the idea of whether or not you can 557 00:55:18,730 --> 00:55:20,690 actually practice or write. 558 00:55:20,690 --> 00:55:26,570 So there's the concept of no one stopping you from exercising it, but if there's no 559 00:55:26,570 --> 00:55:31,650 ability for you to get a platform to exercise your free speech, then you don't have free 560 00:55:31,650 --> 00:55:33,470 speech in practice. 561 00:55:33,470 --> 00:55:42,330 So what I'm hoping that you might consider is that there are certain activities of human 562 00:55:42,330 --> 00:55:50,090 behavior which are constitutionally protected rights that even corporations and businesses 563 00:55:50,090 --> 00:55:55,330 should not be able to limit or restrict, provided that they aren't criminal activity. 564 00:55:55,330 --> 00:56:03,290 So for example, if a gun company is selling to an 18-year-old, engaging in perfectly lawful 565 00:56:03,290 --> 00:56:09,210 activity under state law, that a bank, which is extremely highly regulated and basically 566 00:56:09,210 --> 00:56:14,130 a creature of the government, should not be able to abrogate a constitutionally protected 567 00:56:14,130 --> 00:56:18,010 legal, civil, individual right. 568 00:56:18,010 --> 00:56:19,410 You still disagree? 569 00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:22,770 No, no. 570 00:56:22,770 --> 00:56:29,930 I guess where I'm lost in your argument is that you've presented a very strong case that 571 00:56:29,930 --> 00:56:35,090 the government has abused its powers, but it sounds like you want the government to 572 00:56:35,090 --> 00:56:36,970 have more power. 573 00:56:36,970 --> 00:56:41,610 Well, I'm not an anarchist, so I'm not opposed to government power. 574 00:56:41,610 --> 00:56:46,050 So if government power is being used to expand liberty, I'm for it. 575 00:56:46,050 --> 00:56:51,290 If government power is being used to restrict liberty, then I'm against it. 576 00:56:51,290 --> 00:56:57,970 If all of the corporations in the world banned the ability of anyone to make a transaction, 577 00:56:57,970 --> 00:57:04,690 if all of the banks made it illegal to purchase firearms using electronic transactions and 578 00:57:04,690 --> 00:57:08,850 the government stepped in and stopped the banks from doing that, I would support that 579 00:57:08,850 --> 00:57:16,130 use of government power because I think this is really what this debate is about. 580 00:57:16,130 --> 00:57:22,250 It's about libertarian ends versus libertarian means, and I guess what I have changed my 581 00:57:22,250 --> 00:57:28,290 views on is that I'm okay with non-libertarian means, meaning using government power, as 582 00:57:28,290 --> 00:57:32,530 long as the libertarian ends, as long as there are libertarian ends. 583 00:57:32,530 --> 00:57:39,050 And it seems that,

and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you think that you should never use 584 00:57:39,050 --> 00:57:43,530 non-libertarian means to achieve libertarian ends, is that correct? 585 00:57:43,530 --> 00:57:51,270 Yes, and I think the biggest problem is rooting that in reality though, because the powers 586 00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:54,370 that be are always changing. 587 00:57:54,370 --> 00:58:02,330 I mean, we've talked a lot about how the left and Joe Biden have used these powers, but Donald 588 00:58:02,330 --> 00:58:08,890 Trump is using the same powers right now to go after immigrants and small businesses at 589 00:58:08,890 --> 00:58:14,850 the southern border, expanding financial surveillance, cutting them off from the financial system, 590 00:58:14,850 --> 00:58:17,570 and it's all the same tools. 591 00:58:17,570 --> 00:58:25,650 And so I do not trust giving the government more power because when it shifts, it can 592 00:58:25,650 --> 00:58:33,090 go against the ideas that I like, I'd rather reduce those powers, reduce the regulations 593 00:58:33,090 --> 00:58:39,210 that are steering decisions away from core business ideas. 594 00:58:39,210 --> 00:58:45,770 Take that out of the equation, and then we have a freer system where everyone can benefit, 595 00:58:45,770 --> 00:58:53,350 and we can have a diverse system that's serving each part of the community, not just libertarians, 596 00:58:53,350 --> 00:58:58,370 not just Democrats, not just Republicans, but all of us. 597 00:58:58,370 --> 00:59:06,690 Instead, what we're getting is just who's in power serves their base, shifts in 48 years, 598 00:59:06,690 --> 00:59:07,690 serves their base. 599 00:59:07,690 --> 00:59:15,130 Yeah, I see that as a fact of reality, and that is going to be how it is. 600 00:59:15,130 --> 00:59:17,090 There's nothing that we libertarians can change about that. 601 00:59:17,090 --> 00:59:20,210 That is our system, and that's the one we're locked into. 602 00:59:20,210 --> 00:59:22,810 That's why I think your idea won't work though. 603 00:59:22,810 --> 00:59:26,050 Well, it'll work for us when we're in power, which is why it's important for us to be in 604 00:59:26,050 --> 00:59:27,050 power. 605 00:59:27,050 --> 00:59:28,050 Which doesn't last. 606 00:59:28,050 --> 00:59:33,010 Well, it doesn't last, but you have to deal with in the confines of the world that we 607 00:59:33,010 --> 00:59:34,010 live in. 608 00:59:34,010 --> 00:59:38,810 So in those years, when we have power, that is when we should use that power in order 609 00:59:38,810 --> 00:59:40,850 to advance our libertarian ends. 610 00:59:40,850 --> 00:59:46,970 And if that means non-libertarian means, I'm for it as long as the ends themselves are 611 00:59:46,970 --> 00:59:47,970 libertarian. 612 00:59:47,970 --> 00:59:53,450 And that is just that this is why I think conservatives and libertarians have been slowly 613 00:59:53,450 --> 00:59:58,730 losing over decades, is because the left has no problem or compunction using political 614 00:59:58,730 --> 01:00:04,370 power to achieve leftist, communist, socialist, big government, statist ends. 615 01:00:04,370 --> 01:00:09,190 But that conservatives and libertarians have allowed ourselves to have our hands tied behind 616 01:00:09,190 --> 01:00:14,090 our back and say, "Well, we can't do anything because it would compromise our principles 617 01:00:14,090 --> 01:00:18,970 to use this power in order to reduce or limit the power of government." 618 01:00:18,970 --> 01:00:20,210 And this is a great conversation. 619 01:00:20,210 --> 01:00:26,370 I actually think that this is at the center of the libertarian issues or challenges or 620 01:00:26,370 --> 01:00:30,330 problems that we're facing right now, but we just don't have time to get into all of 621 01:00:30,330 --> 01:00:31,330 it. 622 01:00:31,330 --> 01:00:33,410 It was a great conversation, Nick, and you represented yourself well. 623 01:00:33,410 --> 01:00:34,650 I want to give you the last word. 624 01:00:34,650 --> 01:00:38,650 If there's anything you want to share, applaud before we let you go. 625 01:00:38,650 --> 01:00:44,930 Next word, I'll just say folks can find all of my work at keto.org or on social media 626 01:00:44,930 --> 01:00:46,970 as econ with Nick. 627 01:00:46,970 --> 01:00:48,650 Reach out to me anytime. 628 01:00:48,650 --> 01:00:49,850 Always happy to chat. 629 01:00:49,850 --> 01:00:51,090 Always happy to get in the weeds. 630 01:00:51,090 --> 01:00:52,090 This was great fun. 631 01:00:52,090 --> 01:00:53,090 Thank you. 632 01:00:53,090 --> 01:00:54,090 Thank you very much for your time, Nick. 633 01:00:54,090 --> 01:00:55,650 Have a wonderful day and keep up the good work at keto. 634 01:00:55,650 --> 01:00:56,480 Take care. 635 01:00:56,730 --> 01:00:58,290 That's today's Wake Up America Show. 636 01:00:58,290 --> 01:00:59,330 Thanks so much for tuning in. 637 01:00:59,330 --> 01:01:00,410 Follow the podcast. 638 01:01:00,410 --> 01:01:04,310 So tomorrow's edition is waiting for you, and watch the full show anytime 639 01:01:04,310 --> 01:01:06,650 at 4LibertyNetwork.com.