התמלול המלא של Summer session with Elise Robinson

I want to hear from you is like what are you researching and what are you teaching, and how do those things come together? So we'll start there, but before we do that, I have to get on record the thing I hate doing, which is welcoming you to the show. I always feel like It's fake. Elise Robinson: 3:28 It's like it's like theater, It's like it's fine, It's all good. Carole Chabries: 3:31 Okay. So how would you so give me a quick little theater lesson then? Because I always feel like a total fraud, like we're sitting here, we're chatting and then suddenly I have to like break and go. hey, Elise, i'm so glad you're joining us today. Welcome to the uplift. Elise Robinson: 3:44 I mean to me like the, as a theater person, like that, doesn't even feel like that's. Of course, that's the thing that you do. It's like you know, now we're now we're pausing from our personal conversation, we're entering the new space of the podcast, And so of course, we have to enter that with an introduction. So that's, it's all good. I love how you, i love how you just said that It was fine. Carole Chabries: 4:01 Um well, how about if I say it again, yeah, and then we pick up from there Okay, sounds good, all right, and I'm just, I, super, am excited. So I'm going to like, yes, okay, now I'm, now, i'm feel okay. So here's where I need the theater lesson, because now I feel totally self-conscious. Elise Robinson: 4:15 Let's just take a breath. Let's just take a pause, let's remind for that space. I know. Do you actually teach acting too? I have I'm not right now, but yes, i have done Okay. Carole Chabries: 4:28 Elise, I'm so glad you're joining us today on the uplift Welcome. Elise Robinson: 4:32 Thank you. I'm excited to be here and talk to you. Awesome. Carole Chabries: 4:37 So I um have loved following your escapades on social media as you moved from Minnesota back home to the South, which I don't understand, and so maybe some you can talk about that a little bit. But I'm really interested in what you're doing with your research and your teaching, and so I wonder if you can start by telling us a little bit about your dissertation question and the research you're conducting and what you're teaching and how those do or don't intersect. Elise Robinson: 5:07 Yes, absolutely can do So. Um, my dissertation topic is the British women's suffrage movement. So that's the the British women trying to get women the vote in, uh, the early 1900s in the UK. And more specifically, since I'm a theater person and I'm getting my PhD in theater and performance studies, I'm looking at the militant branch of that movement. So those are the ones who marched and chained themselves to the gates of parliament and did skits and put bombs and letter boxes and got up to all kinds of crazy stunts And I'm looking at their entire movement as performance and sort of arguing that you have to analyze what they're doing as performance,

with costumes and scripts and a specific audience in mind and set pieces and the whole shebang, if you really want to understand what they're doing and how it worked or it didn't work. And so, at a broader level, my interests specifically um for this situation, but also kind of in general and historically are feminist activism and how performance is used as a tool for activist ends, and specifically feminist activist ends, and the way that that sort of intersects with my teacher. It intersects like in all the ways really. Um, so I teach, I've taught for many, like for decades, and weirdly, because I'm old. That sounds weird to say but it's true. For decades I've taught in theater studies and communication, but then since I've been at UGA for the last four years, I've been teaching for the Institute for Women's Studies. That has been a surprisingly rich gift. I started teaching there just because I love I was getting a grad certificate in Women's Studies, because that seemed to mesh really well with my dissertation work and because I just wanted to take those classes and meet those people. I really ended up falling in love with it. Then I was offered a teaching position with them and it was like oh, oh, yeah, this is exactly the kind of teaching that I want to do. It's really been fabulous. I've gotten to teach intro classes in women's studies and in queer studies. I've gotten to teach feminist literature classes and multicultural classes and just all kinds of things In my classes. Since I'm the instructor record, i get to include things like performance and drama in that part of my background. But also we get to talk about identity politics and other kinds of politics and day-to-day relevant issues for the students that come into my classes. My background in feminism and activism and performance just fits right in with that area, because my students they come in. I mean, they're taking a women's studies class, so they're expecting a certain level of, i think, feminist approach and feminist stuff. Some of them are resistant to it, but most of them are really ready for it, and so it really allows me to kind of put my years and years and years of thinking about feminism and activism and political ideologies sort of into practice on the daily in the classroom. So that's what I do. Carole Chabries: 8:00 I love that. And it makes me super curious about your students. So one of the jokes in my family is that my sense of geography is terrible and because I where up out states are big and the lines are straight. So I don't know very much about southern states. What I do think I know is often stereotyped and wrong. I can't really imagine with any kind of accuracy who your students are. So tell us a little bit about who comes to UGA and of those students who make their way into your classes. Like what are they there for? What's their sense of their place in the world? Tell us all of that. Elise Robinson: 8:43 Yeah, yeah, so well, so, okay.

So Georgia, you know, is one of the original 13 colonies, so it's old and and it's a very interesting. So okay. So, having been born in Athens and grown up in Athens, I can remember very clearly I didn't think that I had an accent, which I totally did, and I used to think that, like Athens, which is in North Georgia, like that's not deep south. Right, deep south is like Florida and southern Georgia, that's like where my cousins live, is deep south. Not. So when people would say deep south, I wouldn't think of myself as having anything to do with that. But of course all of Georgia is the deep south And I think, especially with the political situation now, like when you hear you know, newscasters and stuff talk about the deep south, they're totally talking about Georgia. But Georgia is really interesting, I think even within the deep south, because of Atlanta's history with the Civil War and having to sort of be totally rebuilt and the the sort of politically interesting position of Georgia. So although it has lately been a red state, it also it also has really strong historical ties to Democratic candidates. I mean, you think, Jimmy Carter, right, John Lewis and a really really strong history of social justice of two. So you know, Martin Luther he's from Georgia and lots of sort of cultural you know culturally important. You know the music scene in Georgia is huge and has historically been huge. So it's a really interesting amalgamation and sort of I wouldn't say melting pot because it hasn't melted together, but there's a lot of people kind of rubbing up together with different perspectives. Now, having said that, of course you can go to, there are many sort of small rural towns in Georgia that are extremely white, extremely racist, extremely narrow-minded. I mean, that's also true too. We are in the Bible Belt, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Athens has always really been a blue dot in the reds, even when it was a red state. So Athens and Atlanta and Savannah are kind of like the big blue dots in Georgia, and so I remember when I decided to move back here from Minnesota, a lot of my friends were like, oh my God, you're moving to a red state. How are you going to survive in you know conservative land? And I was like, yeah, but I'm moving to Athens. And like, when we came down here house hunting, I literally didn't see which was in 2016. I didn't see a single Trump sticker or yard sign like it was all Democrat. So I was like, yeah, I think we're going to be okay, and also have always had the feeling that, you know, even when I was living in Minnesota, being a director and doing auditions and stuff that kind of tradition of people putting on a Southern accent if they want to communicate hick or ignorant or stupid, right. I've always wanted to push back against that, and so I think one of the things that's been exciting about living here since 2016, there's been a lot that's been depressing, but what's been exciting is really seeing with people like Rafael Warnock and Stacey Abrams and John Ossoff and these sort of national players, I think, hopefully rejiggering people's perceptions of what the South can look like. And that Georgia, I'm hoping, will be a model for demonstrating that the Southern accents don't equal ignorant, right. There are lots of people down here who are as progressive as you will find anywhere in the country. So that's just sort of background info In terms of the students that we get. So I'm teaching at UGA, University of Georgia, which is the kind of flagship land-grant you know, research one university in Georgia. It also touts itself as being the first public land-grant university in the country. I think some of that depends a little bit on how you interpret dates of when it started, but it certainly has a claim, can stake a claim to that. So it's been around for a long time, since the late 1700s, and it's also part of a system. So there's the University system of Georgia and that includes other like Georgia State College and other kind of state system universities And there's a Board of Regents that is in control of all of that system. UGA student body is very interesting and I was really surprised when I started teaching here at the caliber and level of students here. So Georgia has two programs, the Hope Scholarship and the Zell Miller Scholarship, that they've been cut sort of recently, just like everything in education, but they're still really robust And what they can offer is that any Georgia State student who has like a B average or above when they're in high school is eligible to get either a Hope Scholarship or a Zell Miller Scholarship and those pay for a considerable chunk of a state college education. So you can go to UGA, you can go to any of the USG system institutions and that money will go with you and will pay for, like I mean it used to be that it would pay for everything, and now it doesn't pay for everything but it still pays for a lot. And so what that has meant specifically for UGA is that in the last sort of 20, 25 years or so it's really become a much more academically robust student body than it was previously. So I know that, like within academia, as you know, a lot of times you know state the state school is like your backup school right, like you can definitely get in there, but like you want to maybe go somewhere more prestigious in Georgia, it's actually really hard to get into UGA. They get so many applicants and because of the price difference because it is a state school and if you're an in-state student you go there the tuition is a lot cheaper than going to someplace like I don't know, Vanderbilt or Brown or whatever. A lot of the students that have the GPA and the sort of resume to go to an Ivy League or an expensive you know out-of-state school end up going to UGA because they can afford that right, which so that has benefited UGA in terms of having pretty. I mean, we get like I don't even know what our current stats are,

but it's like the cream of the crop. We're getting the cream of the crop with the graduating classes. We're getting really smart, motivated students who have learned how to work the educational system to their advantage. That's the positive thing. The negative thing about that is that the student population of UGA is not reflective of the general demographics of Georgia population right? So our percentage of African-American students is considerably smaller than the state percentage of African-American residents. So when you look at the sort of demographic breakdown of UGA students, it does not match the demographic backgrounds of the state. And so you know, diversity and equity is like those. These are big buzzwords and all lackadum right now And UGA keeps touting that. You know it's one of these sort of diversity and equity and inclusion awards which is, i guess, great for their marketing, but it doesn't really reflect the reality on the ground here. And it definitely is the case that I think a lot of especially first generation college students and students from disadvantaged backgrounds or minoritized backgrounds struggle a little bit at UGA because they're not the majority and because it can be hard for them to find their systems of support right. So one of the things that I will often get from my students that kind of reflects that is that you know my classes will be the first class they've taken where the instructor knows their name all semester, or the first class they've taken where they feel comfortable asking the professor for a letter of recommendation or asking them to help them find resources or just sort of basic kind of extracurricular kinds of questions. And on the one hand, i am happy and grateful to be that person for them. But I am also constantly disappointed that I'll be talking to somebody who's a fourth year student who has never had an instructor that knew their name And I just think that's just a real failure on the part of the institution. So, in terms of the students that I get in my classes, so since I teach in theater and women's studies, I will say I do feel like, to a large extent, my students self- select, for being awesome is what I usually do. So a lot of the students that come into my classes they come in ready to sort of dig into the stuff that we are going to dig into. Right, many of them are taking the class either because they want to do a minor or certificate or a major and this is kind of their entry into that or because they're curious, or because they had an elective slot open in their schedule and this sounded like something that would be fun. Right, there are occasionally in the intro to women's studies or the multicultural women, which is the very, very entry level class that we teach, because those count for other gen ed kind of requirements. We do sometimes get kids in there that are really just there to check off that box, and so sometimes they can be the ones that are a little bit more resistant

or unsure or not super excited about the thing. Of course that happens in every discipline, but I've been sort of pleasantly surprised by how many of them end the semester being like this is pretty cool and I would recommend this class to other people and I'm going to keep thinking about this stuff. And one of the things that I think is so rewarding about teaching in the women's studies program is that it's not at all difficult to make every class period super relevant to their lives and to really draw those connections between the sort of critical theories we're talking about or the history that we're talking about and how that has a direct effect on what they're doing in their daily lives, and I think that really makes it easier for them to be engaged and excited about the stuff that we're doing, because they can really see a direct use for it. Carole Chabries: 17:47 Can we pursue that track for a minute of what's relevant to their lives? So here's kind of what I'm wondering. So you've got this group of students who are self-selected for being awesome, which is maybe the best thing I've ever heard anybody say. That's fantastic. And I'm thinking about your research and activism as performance, and I'm thinking also about what you said about students feeling seen and valued. You know my name. You can speak to my strengths. You'll write me a letter of recommendation. So I'm kind of thinking about all of that, and also thinking about that in the framework of what it means for students to go to college and learn the behaviors that will promote active citizenship. So part of that from your lens sounds to me like actual activism. And then maybe there's a way that your teaching is kind of a level of activism too right, where you're showing them what it can be like to have a voice, to be physically present, to use your mind, to speak up. So can you talk a little bit about how, for your students, those things might come together in terms of learning what it means to be an activist and what they do with that where you just ended, sort of what they do with that in their daily lives, because I think part of the question I'm trying to understand is, in addition to, but also beyond, traditional civic engagement and get out the vote activities, how are students learning to be in the world while they're at college in a way that promotes better citizenship? Yes, so I know it's a huge question but can you speak a little bit? Elise Robinson: 19:31 This is such perfect timing because every semester when I teach intro to women's studies, our final unit that we just started yesterday is called activism. It's a unit on activism, like that's literally what I call it, and so we talk a little bit, initially about what that means, right, and about how a lot of students come in and or even I mean not even just students, people in general they hear the word activist and they think of people who are yelling or shouting, who are kind of maybe aggressive or angry, who are carrying big signs, who are out in public sort of making a show of themselves. Right, we have this kind of view of that. That's what an activist is, right. One of my claims at the beginning of any of the classes that I teach is that feminism is essentially an activist position, and so we talk about how there's some opinions that you can hold that don't require you to really do anything about it. Right, like I can think that cilantro is demon weed and I do. But like I don't have to, like you know, try to convert other people to my belief system about that, i don't have to. Well, for whom cilantro tastes like soap Rancid soap, not just like rotten soap if that were a thing would taste like cilantro, yeah, but like so I can have that position and you don't have to be threatened by it And I don't have to feel like defensive. Like you know, that's just position I can have, I don't have to think about it. But if I am a feminist, if that's a position that I hold, that requires or implies and it's anyway, some action on my part, right, because if feminism is the recognition that there is gender and sex- based discrimination, and if we think that's not cool, then the implication is probably we should do something about it, right. By the time we're having this discussion, we've had a good chunk of the class happening, so most of them are willing to sort of consider themselves feminists, and sometimes that's a hurdle we have to get over first. But so I sort of say look, if you consider yourself a feminist, that you're already an activist. That's already a position that demands a certain approach to the world, a certain lens through which you view things, a certain kind of form of action. And so we talk a little bit about how activism doesn't have to be this big, angry, loud, performative thing, that it can be as little as sort of daily choices you make, like daily choices to not laugh at sexist or racist jokes, right? Or daily choices to you know in terms of, like how you present yourself to the world, maybe what kinds of classes you're going to register for, who you're going to vote for. We definitely talk about voting as a form of activism or things like you know, being aware we were talking about. I was asking them for examples And one of my students said, when I was first here on campus, i was friends with a group of people and they were mostly really pretty well off, but there were a couple of us that were not so well off, and so when we were making plans to go out and do things, I would always try to make sure that the things we were planning to go out and do were accessible and affordable for everybody that was talking and not just you know that we weren't taking for granted these things, and that's a great example of a way to be active in your everyday life. So we try to kind of break it down that it doesn't have to be a big, scary thing, but it's things that you're already doing right, or things that you could already be doing small

sort of small daily life choices that have a bigger ripple effect, right? And so one of the ways in which I think I try to encourage So we talk about I don't know, do you know Glen and Melton? Yes, right, she's fantastic. So she coined this term Perspectacles in one of her videos, like years and years and years and years ago, and about how, you know, she was having a bad day thinking about how she wanted to remodel her kitchen. She just had to put on her Perspectacles and be like, oh my God, I have running water that is drinkable, that comes out of a faucet. And, you know, like a different way of conceiving things. So this is a term that I use in my classes all the time, because one of the big ways that I translate critical thinking which I think can be a difficult term to kind of parse for students is it's about getting a whole set of Perspectacles in your sort of toolbox, right, and so a lot of what we're doing in my class is learning. It's like not cosplaying, it's not like, you know, pretending you're blind or pretending you're black or it's not. That that's not good, that's not a good kind of perspective, but it's about being able to look through different lenses. And so it's about sort of you know, walking across campus wearing your Perspectacles for able-bodiedness, right? And what are the things that are really difficult about our campus if you are not able to walk? Say you're on crutches or in a wheelchair, like, how much harder would it be for you to get to your classes at all, not to speak up on time, and which buildings don't have elevators and which you know all this kind of stuff. And so the activist piece is another form of Perspectacles, right? So it's about activism and feminism as being really essentially optimistic, because if you didn't think things could change for the better, you wouldn't bother doing anything about it, right? And so the fact that you have this notion that things are unfair and that things could be different, that things could be better for women and minoritized people, means that you're already an optimist. You already can think about things being better. You are really willing to try to do that better. And so we talk about activism as a sort of a real-world, bodily manifestation of that fundamental optimism that the world can be better than it is and that you have both the privilege and, in some senses, the obligation to do what you can do, however small that might be, to manifest that better world. Carole Chabries: 24:34 It's such a nice pivot away from the angry activists stomping around screeching to thinking about being optimistic and having hope and seeking change, like that's just, that is a radically different perspective that I could see being really appealing to some students. Elise Robinson: 24:52 And for me that's so like if I can't find foundational joy in the activism that I practice, i would have been burned out like 20 years ago, you know. And so like when I talk about critical race theory or when I talk about feminism or all these sort of hot topics, sort of van-book kind of things for me that is genuinely coming from a place of joy. I say that teaching is my activism all the time, and that's true. And one of the reasons that it continues to be true is that I find it absolutely joyful and in some ways revelatory to really connect on this very fundamental level with these students who are, i mean, they're so hungry for it right, like they're so hungry to be seen and heard, and they have such optimism you know, hear the term youth optimism. Yeah, that's a thing, they really have it, and they aren't tired yet the way that a lot of seasoned activists are right, and so all they're looking for really is somebody to give them the tools to sort of use that and to channel that in a direction, or to make them feel empowered to channel it themselves. And so I can imagine a world in which I would be trying to do this stuff and I would just be getting pushed back and no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But that literally has never happened to me and I've been teaching. I've taught in private schools and big public schools and community colleges and I've taught all kinds of populations and my experience is that, especially with this sort of traditional college age group of people, they have things to say, they want people to hear them. They've been told that their voices don't count, and so if I can come and tell them, no, no, no, no, no, no, your voice is super, do count and you are huge and you have interesting things and meaningful things to say and communicate and hear lots of different ways that that might look and the things that you can do and maybe are already doing. So I think that that is validating for them but also sort of like spurs their imaginations, like, oh well, if that's activism, then here are the other things that I'm doing and hey, maybe I could also do this other thing. And so I think hopefully it's a cumulative kind of building on process too, that I hear from them after they graduate and they sort of say, hey, this is what I'm up to, and I thought you might want to know about this thing that I did, and so I feel like they are kind of continuing that out into the world, which is that's the goal. Carole Chabries: 26:57 This is. It's a rough memory, but I think back to the school shooting in Florida and particularly Emma Gonzalez, and I remember watching her and thinking, oh my God, this generation of students is really different. They are passionate. Like, I don't think I would have said that about people I went to college with. Like, generationally, not in particularities, but I think we've got a group of students now we're in this period where and we were talking about this with our own kids right where there is passion and fire and investment, and I think that's really different and it makes teaching like your, it gives it a space I think maybe hasn't always existed. Tell me, if you can, some

stories about your students. I'd love to know, beyond the particularities of the perspectives, what are they out there doing? Or what have you, what have you done with them, what have you seen them do? Or what do they write to you later and tell you that they're doing? What is the option that I do? Elise Robinson: 27:57 It's interesting that you mentioned Parkland because you know of course we're not that far from Florida here and I had a Parkland student and take two of my classes, actually Delaney Tarr. You can find video of her speaking to Washington DC and stuff like that. So connecting with her was really interesting. You know, i didn't realize that she was one of those students until she asked. She told me she was gonna have to miss class on Valentine's Day because she needed to go back home for a memorial and I was like oh sad. And then I was like wait a minute, and made the connection that that's who she was, and so and she took several classes for me and we got to sort of know each other And so she I asked her if she was comfortable to talk about her activism and how what it was like to sort of be in that moment and have all that national attention and then translate that into doing something. And she's an extraordinary articulate young person. And so she was able to talk to some of my classes about that work and about those people and about the response and about the difficulties of sort of maintaining that activism once it's sort of been gone from the public spotlight, you know, once people have sort of moved beyond it, and so she's somebody that's been really I don't know iconic for me in terms of the student activism. But I also I wanted to tell you a story about another student that I had, and this is just the sweetest story, i think, for me. So one of the things that I teach in my Intro to Women Studies class is Sojourner Truths speech, which is typically referred to as the anti-Iowlmans speech, and one of the things that I do when I teach it is I teach them about how there were two different versions of that speech published, and the anti-Iowlmans version was the one that was written by a white woman and was not published until 12 years after the speech happened. The white woman was at the speech when it was originally given and knew Sojourner Truth. Sojourner Truth, of course, was a literate, so she couldn't write her own version, But there was a version that was published within weeks after the speech by a black, the editor of a black newspaper, who was very close with Sojourner Truth and with whom Sojourner Truth worked on the transcription or the rewriting of her speech, and so it's almost certainly much more accurate to how she actually gave the speech And in the speech that she actually gave. She never says the phrase anti-owlmans Like. That's just not in the speech And the published version of the speech that is what every kid in high school that learns about Sojourner Truth reads and what most college classes that

teach it is. That version is written to sound like a white person's idea of what a southern enslaved person would sound like, And so it's written in a very specific dialect with sort of very specific misspellings. Frances Harper Gage, who's the woman who wrote that version, added in all kinds of spurious details about how, like, sojourner Truth had 13 children and saw them enslaved. She didn't have 13 children, she had five. So she adds a bunch of details, she adds a bunch of emotion. When you see like written up versions of the speech, it's very much like. Then the audience gasp and somebody yelled out no stop And Sojourner said I can't Like. It's very kind of soap opera, 19th century sort of goth dramatic. And in fact Sojourner Truth was born in New York and spoke Dutch until she was nine years old, because she was born into a new Amsterdam Dutch family and didn't learn English until she was in her middle years and was widely reported as being absolutely as articulate as any white speaker of the day. Right, so it's weird to me, right, like so, it's weird to me that in this day and age and the year of our Lord 2022, this is still the most common version of the speech. And so we talk about this. My students read both versions, we hear recordings, we go into the backgrounds of the two different people that transcribed it and what their motives might have been and who their audiences were. We talk about how the white woman that did the most widely read version wasn't just evil and racist. She actually was an abolitionist and was probably writing with a view towards what would get her white, female, largely audience to be most galvanized to work against slavery and towards suffrage. Right, like so. It's complicated, so we let it be complicated. But we also talk about how this reflects on on education, right, and on why it is that, even though it has been known for low these 150 years, that that is the most accurate version of her speech. It's the one that still gets taught, and so we talk about how teachers teach what they've been taught, and if you don't have any reason to think that you might need to do some extra research on it, you just don't And you just assume that you've been. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we do this and every and every year my students are like what? This isn't the right version And how did I not know this? And some of them get mad about having been taught the wrong version. But one semester I had a student who got so mad that she actually wrote a letter to her high school civics teacher And she really loved this teacher. It wasn't that this was a bad teacher, but she was so upset about this kind of thing And she was like, well, i need to let them know. And so she she wrote a letter to our high school civics teacher, sort of saying I'm taking this class and we did this unit and I read about this and here are the versions And I'm just wondering, like you know, did you know this and does this all changed? you know

how you might teach this thing, and then ended up having this sort of conversation with this teacher, with the result that the teacher, as far as I'm aware, did change their lesson plan and now teaches the more accurate version And hopefully it talks about why that has changed too, and it was so like awesome to hear that from the student and to really see this sort of direct impact that me just giving them knowledge right, like I'm just sort of presenting like here's, here's how this is like, here are these two versions. What do you think about this? That this student sort of took that and was like, yeah, like my teacher is a good teacher And I'm sure if they knew what was right they would change it And and like they did. And I don't remember where the student was from And if it was, if they were from Georgia, if they were from somewhere else And I don't know. You know it's entirely we talk about this too. It's entirely possible that the state standards might require a certain version of this. You know, like there's all kinds of institutional garbage that can get away with that, but but that this, that this single student sort of took that and put it into action, i was like, oh God, that's on that. You know it's this ripple effect. So like generations of students now going to that school are going to get the right version of the speech, and that's that blows my mind And that's amazing and gratifying And I love that. Carole Chabries: 33:49 So I love it too, and you know, as you were telling the story I was. The notes I was taking are about the student caring about things like the truth and caring about having a relationship with a teacher that extends beyond the time frame of the class. Right, and I see that now with my kids like my kids have such radically different relationships with their high school teachers, than I would have even wanted. But so here you've got this student who has that relationship. She cares enough about the future and that teacher and that work the teacher is doing and the truth to actually take what is, I think, a very small and probably, in the scheme of things, not super scary step of intervening. Yeah right, she's just intervened in potentially hundreds, maybe thousands, of people's lives. Elise Robinson: 34:42 Yeah, yeah, and it's a little, but it's also so big, right, it's so big, yeah, it's so that I mean, you know, yeah, that's kind of one of my favorite impact stories that I have. Carole Chabries: 34:54 So there are two more things I want to give you a chance to talk about. So one thing I'd like to hear from you in particular and also in particular because Georgia, like your most recent Senate race, was so freaking crucial for the country. So I would love to hear anything you can tell us about preparing students to vote right. I mean, this episode is going to drop on Halloween. There will be a week. There's a little bit we can do in a week, but so what do people do to think about supporting

students, voting and participating in the midterms and then also maybe a little bit longer term? if you've got ideas for curricular or co-curricular things, folks can do that really get to the heart of this kind of activism and civic engagement. And so that's one question. And then, as you were speaking earlier, i thought of another question. I haven't asked anybody else this question, so you'll be the first. When you were talking about feminism requiring activism, it made me wonder what your personal position is on whether women leading colleges at any level, not just presidents, women who have leadership roles on college campuses should be feminist. But I'm gonna let you sit with that and maybe talk a little bit about voting and students, and then we can circle back to whether you want to answer that question on the record. Elise Robinson: 36:13 Well, i have thoughts. I have thoughts about it. I do. So with regards to the voting thing. For the immediate future, for the midterm elections, my plea or call to other educators would be twofold, which is one please talk about voting in your classes, and there's a way to do that without being partisan, without being you know, I mean there's a way to do that that's appropriate in an educational setting. And so, for example, I do things like you know, make my students aware of when the cutoff deadline is to register to vote beforehand and like make sure that they know that and make sure that they know when early voting starts. So, if early voting is a thing in your state, make sure that your students know that that's the thing and where that can happen, and talk about it like every class now, from now on, now until the election, i'm gonna be like go, go, please, and I don't take it any farther than that. I don't encourage certain candidates, although I'm fairly certain my students know, kind of what my political views are, but like it's not, it's really just vote Like I don't know, just do it. More specifically, i really really, really encourage, if it is in any way possible, give your students the voting Tuesday off like cancel class. That day You can have assignments, things can be due, they can still have to do work, but give them at least the space. If you teach on that Tuesday, give them at least the space of your class period and tell them that that's why you're doing it is because it's voting Tuesday and they need to go vote And so they have this time to go stand in line and vote. If you don't teach on Tuesdays, give them time off the Monday that you teach to go vote early or some other time. Give them some time, Because to me that's a really clear way to model how important it is to do that, to sort of say I'm gonna put my class time that I should be spending with you. That's how important this is. So that's my kind of immediate reaction. In terms of a longer term approach I'm thinking towards the next presidential election I honestly think that the best, most meaningful thing that we as

teachers can do is encourage students to not only think and discuss hot button issues that are coming up in elections and representation and things about like what representation means and what civic responsibility means, but also to empower them to feel like they have a voice that matters. In my classes we talk an awful lot about the difference between a civil rights perspective and a human rights perspective, so that a civil rights perspective is gonna be emphasizing sort of working within the system, having representation legally and in the justice world, trying to use the existing frameworks to make lives better for citizens. Where a human rights framework is gonna really emphasize like you should just get to have things because you're human, like as you exist in the world, then it shouldn't matter And nothing else should matter. It should just matter that you're human. And we talk a lot about the way those two things have to kind of go together, because obviously in order for us to get better human rights we have to do things on the civic perspective. And so I think for sure there are gonna be classes where it's harder to connect to that, but I literally can't think of a topic that's taught at the university level that you couldn't draw stem cell research, easy connection like medical availability, insurance issues, sociological, anthropological I mean it's all part of it, right, it's all part of the human experience. So I think, to the extent that we can bring in current events or bring in current debates that are happening, that are somehow relevant to our disciplines, and then really allow students to like have opinions and prompt them to have those opinions be supported and not just sort of spewing out what they've heard from other people to make them articulate them in a meaningful way, but to also let them articulate them like hear what they have to say and hear the experiences and the knowledges that they are bringing into the classroom that you as an instructor may not have and that their other classmates may not have, and so sort of. I mean I talk about decolonizing the classroom all the time, and that's a little bit what I mean that there needs to be a respect for students' voices and experiences at the same time that there's awareness that they can be encouraged to sort of get more complicated in their thinking or more sophisticated in their approach to things. So that's kind of how I think about that stuff. Carole Chabries: 40:06 I love that. It's a way of being as a teacher right, it's kind of a mindset and it's also got a series of practices where you're regularly seeking those opportunities for students to exercise their voices and their opinions about whatever is real in the moment And you can make that. I could think of lots of ways where you could make that easy and easy habit. You could have a five minute quick response once a week. You could do all sorts of easy little things. Elise Robinson: 40:34 And I think a lot of it from the instructor's perspective is you know, it's happening when you're designing that syllabus, right, when you're designing that curriculum, like what can I do in the framework of the content that I need to get across for this class, that also allows for these other things to happen And I think it's easier than you might think right, like it's. when you actually sit down to do it, it's like oh, yeah, well, i can, we can do a free write at the beginning of every class, so, or we can do an online discussion weekly where they reflect on things. I mean, like it's, you know, there's, there's lots of ways to do it. So, yeah, yeah. Carole Chabries: 41:01 And you're right. If you pull current events, then there isn't a field that isn't touched. Nope, yeah, nope, okay. So that's helpful and interesting. Let me give you the floor for this question of whether women leading on college campuses should be feminist and what that means and what that would look like. Elise Robinson: 41:21 Yeah. So the quick and dirty answer to that question is yes. Yes, they should be feminist, and I will say that, in general, where we are in the world right now, i tend to take the perspective that that we're in a more as better kind of a place. So more women, more people of color, more underrepresented communities, the better, no matter what their kind of political perspective is, and I do think that that's true. I think we're in a place where more is better and just having more is better. Having said that, i think if we're going to talk about women as a monolith which of course, we aren't really doing, but to the extent to which women are being now able to be in charge of campuses at any level, it's mostly white women, and white women have this problem typically with not being as aware of or committed to social justice issues as I think they probably should be. To my mind, if you are a woman leading an educational institution and you don't recognize that gender discrimination exists in the world, i'm not really sure where you've been or what you're doing, and I for sure think that would disqualify you from leading anything, frankly, but particularly leading an educational institution, and again, there can be different ways of being feminist. There can be different definitions of feminism, but at its base level, that's what it is. It's sort of recognizing that this inequality exists. And I'm not sure how you would get to be a president of anything without recognizing that, especially if you are a woman, especially in the same age, especially, especially, especially. So yeah, I kind of do think that, because I think that, again, it's about perspectives, and if you can't look through the world with that feminist lens as a university or college president or leader, there's just so much that you are going to be missing and so many problems that you're not going to be able to understand fully or understand the causes of fully if you don't get

that. So I also think that women members of government should be feminists. I mean, i pretty much think all women should be feminists and I sort of don't get the ones that aren't. But for me, as an educator, education is especially near and dear to my heart, and that to me is yeah, you just got to do it. Carole Chabries: 43:26 Well, okay, 100% agree. I think everyone who knows me knows that about me. Elise Robinson: 43:31 It's sad to me that that can be a controversial position to take and I recognize that it is, but I just it's like, well, i guess now that I've crossed the border of 50 years old, i'm sort of in my eff- it mode, where it's like I'm no longer going to apologize for that. Like, yeah, I get that this may be controversial for some people, but that's their problem, that's not my problem. Carole Chabries: 43:50 The couple of things that strike me that I think are true. So one thing that I've actually heard women leaders say is a version of the fact that I have achieved this level means there is no longer gender discrimination. I hear women say that. I'm also thinking back to what Nicola Pitchford said, the president of Dominican, when I talked with her a few weeks ago, and she was talking about how white women who vote for Trump are tending to do so out of racial identification, and so when I put all those things together with your point, i think, like the key thing for a woman in a leadership position is to understand especially for a white woman, is to understand intersectionality and to take the time to understand intersectionality. I think women who aren't white, who are in positions of power, are already operating from like they're swimming in intersectionality and they're navigating it with awareness all the time in a way that white women don't Like, if I could make Peggy McIntosh's privilege knapsack article like a required reading for literally every person in the universe. Elise Robinson: 44:53 I would, but I think in particular for women, white women in positions of power. It's like the baseline is you have to understand white privilege and how that works, because most of the sort of problematic things that I see white women as a group doing in political worlds are it's all about yeah, i may be discriminated against because I'm female, if they're even willing to go that far. But if I vote this way or if I act this way, it's like thinking that you're going to get a share of that white privilege pie or that gender pie. If I act in the way that the cis-white privilege men in power act, then I'll kind of get in on some of that power. And I absolutely think that these women who say, yeah, i'm in a position of leadership, therefore gender discrimination It's like saying Obama got elected, so racial discrimination doesn't exist. It's like what are you? people also say right, which people also say, but I just think privilege anybody who's in a position of power needs to have a rigorous understanding of

how privilege works and how oppression works. Because you're in a position of power, it means things, and it especially means things for the people who are under you, and you can't be an effective leader if you don't understand how that works. Carole Chabries: 45:58 I think, i think, No, i'm sitting here thinking that I think what I want for women in leadership positions at any sort, in any industry, is for them to model the behaviors that then, if those behaviors are permeated out into the world, lead to a better world, and so it's coincidental that those are also democratic behaviors. But what you're saying I mean, i think, much less profoundly those are things like conversation and collaboration and listening, but much more profoundly to your point, it's an understanding of power relationships and power differentials and inserting yourself, seeing where you sit in that spectrum and then doing something about it in the cabinet that you build or in the voices that you listen to Yes. And worked on. Elise Robinson: 46:49 And to note right like that, if you're in a position of power, that power can be used to lift up other underheard, underserved voices, Please, And that's like such a privilege that you have to do that right, And that should be the response, not like oh well, I made it so. Screw you guys, right? Carole Chabries: 47:05 Like our privilege and a responsibility. Yeah, like I know that that's not everybody thinks that's their responsibility, but I truly believe it is. So, as I'm thinking about what a woman leaders responsibility is, i think, yes, it is modeling this way of being so that students are not only having this experience, like they have in your class, where you're you're doing that on a very daily basis, but students see a structure. They see a structure and a system of power where that is the behavior, where it's not tyrannical, it's not narcissistic. Right, Yeah, Okay. So, Elise, when you rule the world. I don't even know how to end that sentence. How about I play it differently? Would you please rule the world? Elise Robinson: 47:54 I mean, I feel uncomfortable with that level of power, although this would be a better place if I weren't charged. I'm not going to lie, yeah. Carole Chabries: 48:02 So, just by way of closing, I'll ask is there anything that you really wish you could have talked about from, about your students, or Georgia, or the upcoming election? Is there anything you want to say that I didn't give you a chance to say? Elise Robinson: 48:16 Gosh. no, i think we covered it all pretty thoroughly. I mean, i guess I would just say those of you who are listening to this who are not in Georgia, please hold us in your thoughts and prayers if you are so inclined. If we end up electing Herschel Walker over Raphael Warnock, I may actually explode, in which case I will try to film it on camera and let that be my protest as I leave this world. No, I mean, I think no. Thank you for letting me have this conversation. I guess I would like to circle back around to joyfulness and leave people with this idea that activism and civic participation and teaching and learning can and should be joyful things to do, And that joy can kind of keep us afloat and motivate us to sort of keep going, even when the world around us is awful as it sometimes is. Carole Chabries: 49:05 That's a perfect ending. Thank you, Yeah, I'm so glad you, you, uh, how do I do this? Elise, I'm so glad you came to the show Like give me a sentence. Elise Robinson: 49:14 I think you just ended it. That's a perfect ending. Thank you, cut baby, that's what you did right there. Carole Chabries: 49:29 Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Uplift Summer Session. I am picturing you listening while swinging in a hammock in the shade with your favorite book nearby, and speaking of books, can I buy you one? Here's the deal I'll make you I'll enter you in a monthly drawing for a $20 gift certificate at bookshoporg If you will head over to your podcast platform and leave me a review Once a month, i'll choose a winner at random And if your name is chosen, i'll thank you on air and send you your gift certificate. This way, you get some great summer reading and I get to help you build your library. After all, i'm the granddaughter of a librarian, so sharing books with people is one of my great joys. So head on over to your podcast platform, or even Apple Podcasts, where it might be easier Scroll to the bottom of the page for the Uplift and leave your review.