התמלול המלא של Leading When the Playbook No Longer Works with Danielle Clark

pushing yourself. And sometimes that felt that felt a lot, right? You know, that felt like a high standard to me. And I know I am the kind of person, both from an education, academic point of view and in the workforce, I do rise to a challenge and I I kind of sometimes my my best work comes out in that situation. Ty: Love that. I'm curious what are the some of the ways that you see that informing how you lead today? Danielle: I'm well, I definitely I have high standards. I think people who've worked for me will tell will tell you that. But but but not impossibly so. And I think there's a reality there, right? And I'm really the the word that springs to mind when I think of my mum and hopefully for me is pragmatism. And I tried to be a very pragmatic leader. So yes, I have high expectations of myself first and foremost, and of the of the the work and the level that I I want to be able to deliver and I want my team to be able to deliver, but also that has to be pragmatic. That has to be balanced with Just the fact we are humans, right? Things come up. Not everybody is able to perform at a certain level all the time. we need to make sure that yes, we we focus on performance, but we also have downtime and time to recover and reflect and and so I hope those things kind of come out as well. I mean, I certainly high standards without the human element of it is is a dictator, right? It's not somebody that you particularly want to work for, probably. but I think if you can combine, you know, having like a real sense of purpose, a real sense of wanting to achieve and that pragmatic kind of human element, I think that's a great combination to aim for. Ty: Yeah, I really hear in that this finding that which I often find as a unique balance of both support and challenge for for Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. That's Ty: for individuals and that that's not necessarily the same across the organization, right? That different people are going to need different levels of those things. Danielle: Absolutely. Absolutely. Ty: so in this podcast, of course, we're exploring the essence of leadership. What did I call true leadership? That's gonna mean different things to different people. What does true leadership mean to you? What makes a true leader in your eyes? Danielle: Well I think some of the things I just mentioned, right? That that blend of of different styles. And one of the things I you know, I grew up in consulting. at the beginning of my career I worked for a company called Haigroup, which then later became part of Corn Ferry. And there was a framework there that I was taught that really has has stood with me, which is around styles and climate. And it essentially it's around situational leadership ties. So it kind of varies different, I'm sure different companies and authors have given things these different labels, but it's about, yeah, choosing the right leadership style for the right situation. and trying to really have that what what that was if Illuminated for me is that it's not just you're just one kind of leader, right? And you're just like this particular mold. And I think many of us maybe who grew up in the 80s and 90s, like I did, like there was a kind of an image of what a senior leader looked like, and it was often, you know, a man, it was probably corporate America type of thing, like this real sort of stereotype leader. And so when I learned about this different, like more situational leadership, and yeah, you need to be able to pull on the different levers for the right situation, and that that situation is defined by human behavior. It's not just defined by, you know, a business meeting or a deadline or a you know a quarterly target. It's defined by the people that you are interacting with. And that really resonated with me to be able to think about okay, well, it's not just about first of all having one style and that's it for life, and you just that's stuck in stone. It is around that flexibility. And sometimes you do need to be more direct and to the point. Sometimes you need to be really anchoring on what you said earlier around like the support and really coaching people and that element of empathy and compassion. And I think increasingly, Ty, the last few years have shown us even more that it is that blend of leadership styles that will help you be successful, far more so than just trying to stick to one particular type, you know, you know, come hello high water and that's the only thing you're gonna do. So I think flexibility as a leader, I think integrity obviously, pragmatism and authenticity, I would hope, are hallmarks of my own. Leadership style. Ty: And I really hear so much in in your answer the the that flexibility. I also hear adaptability in that. I'm curious, you know, because it's one thing to like take on different styles of leadership, but what I hear you is really sensing what is appropriate when. I'm curious if you could say a little bit about, you know, what has helped you to determine, you know, what works when. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. I mean well some of it is just time, right? Which, you know, is is maybe not as helpful for people at the beginning of their career, like just spend fifteen, twenty years doing this and then you'll know. I do think it's about paying attention to people, quite honestly. And so that it it's some that's somewhat about yes, time and exposure, you know, in in a in a business environment. But I think even from a young age, I've been someone who really is interested in people, in human behavior, a very observant person. And that I think is really important, to kind of just pay attention to what's going on for people, right? And the things that they don't say as well as what they say, the the body language that they have, what they are getting frustrated by and why that might be might be the case. And so paying attention to what's happening around you, again, back to that situational leadership element. really helps you do that. And one of my

early jobs was in recruitment, right? In agency recruitment. And the thing I loved about that is that you got to interview people all the time. So similar to to obviously you would hear with this podcast, like you get to meet all these different types of people and quickly have to kind of make an assessment of them, not just in terms of capability, but really who they are, what drives them, what are they motivated by, where do they think they can be successful, where have they been successful in the past? And those elements I think all help you become increasingly more and more aware of then where you need to adapt and where you need to flex your style because you're paying attention to the person or the people that you're you're interacting with. Ty: Lots and lots and lots of paying attention. Yeah. can you share about a a time when you realize that your way of leading or living really no longer met the demands of work in life and, you know, a turning point in your life or career? Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. I I can give an early one and and I'll give a more recent one as well. I mean, an early one was in that same recruiting agency and I became a manager, you know, pretty early on. I was 25 when I became a a people manager. And some rude awakening of just like, my goodness, I can't just keep being the individual contributor I was and trying to do my management job, which is what I did try to do, Ty, for like the first sort of six to eight weeks. And ended up just working until ten ten o'clock at night every night. I was exhausted. I probably wasn't being a great manager to my my new small team. I wasn't being a great IC either because I, you know, wasn't able to balance it. And so it quickly became very apparent of like, okay, I need to really change how I'm working and what what Do I need to stop doing? which is to stop trying to be that like the individual contributors on my team and really carve out more time to focus on the people management and the coaching and the like kind of spending time with them as a team. So that was an early but important and very visceral lesson that I experienced. I think another thing, even more recently, you know, when I was joined eBay, the first year there, 2023, was just an Incredibly tough year. We had all kinds of things happened on the team. We had tragedies, we had real things that you just couldn't plan for. and it was just one after another. And the summer of 2023 was one of the worst I've experienced personally and and professionally. And so that was another element of kind of I joined a new company. I was eager to kind of get in there, you know, and make my mark and you know, bring some of the things that had made me be successful previously at companies like Adobe and Fastly. And it was like we're Whoa, well, time out. I think we got to maybe end of June or beginning of July. It's like, this is this is not working, right? We must spend, I've got to spend time really rebuilding, re like re engaging with my immediate team because we are struggling in all different kinds of ways. And that became, yeah, an important, again, sort of light bulb moment of yes, you might have a a playbook coming in as a senior leader. And I you know, I came into that role as a vice president. But you really need to be prepared to put that to one side and engage with what's happening in front of you and engage with the problems that are really there. And you can't make any progress really until you've tackled and addressed those. And we did as a team, you know, we lent in and really spent a lot of time on our own team development journey, which has reaped great rewards, but you know, we needed to take that time out in 2023 and and you know do that work. Ty: I'd really like to to hit on both of these a little bit more. First of all, it I just want to offer it's impressive to hear someone you said that you struggled with the, you know, the the acting as an IC going into a manager role for six to eight Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. Ty: weeks. In my experience, some people will struggle with that for much, much longer than that. I'm curious if you might speak to, you know, what you had to let go of in order to really shift into that different perspective and way of leading. Danielle: Yeah. And I probably didn't recognize it, Ty, at the time as much as I did later, right? As I beg, you know, I took on more and more managerial roles. But what you're letting go of with that, you know, I see to manager transition is what your value is. It's it's a different you it's it's a different kind of value. You're no longer the value is not anymore just about be in my case, like being a great recruiter, right? And just being really good at interviewing people and matching them up with great jobs and managing our clients well. Right, that that was the core of the job. Now my value is like, yes, some of that understanding that work and being able to advise other people and train them on how to do that work, but now my value is much more about how to bring the whole team together, right? And I I can't be successful. And this was a you this was very commercial business. I mean, this is the days of recruitment where you lived and died by the whiteboard, you know, this is pre-Linkedin. you know, we were as an agency, you know, you need to like fill the roles to make the money. That's how that business model works. So there was a lot of commercial pressure on you. And so it was I could there's no way that I could meet the target just as an individual. however great I was as a recruiter, I needed my whole team to be able to perform and to deliver and to meet the the expectations. So recognizing that you moved really to be that coach now, like that is the value you add. If you're just being the same role as your other team members, but you're you're paid more and you have a bigger title, I and then then you're just a more expensive cost to the business. quite you know to be quite brutal about

it you need to be operating like be that quarterback be that person that can like help bring the team together help guide them help coach them help train them help them be successful it's not just about you anymore Ty: Which can be quite a challenge to let go of because oftentimes that kind of value feels a bit more intangible. Right Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Ty: than the individual contributor role, like, look what I did, as opposed to the value is tied to something that's a little you know, so essential, but a bit harder to place your finger on. Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say, you know, if I look if I look back now and I try and do this with with people on my teams that I've worked for, when they move into that role, is to kind of explain that to them. I didn't have anyone explaining that to me. I just sort of figured it out at the time. And like I said, even then I wasn't as aware of what that transition was as I am now, looking back on it. of what that really represented. So I do think our responsibility as leaders is helping educate other leaders coming up behind us of like, hey, that is the difference now. It will be a pivot into value. It will be maybe a change of your identity. And frankly, it's not for everybody, right? There's also plenty of people who shouldn't be like they maybe they try that transition, they're like, you know what, this isn't for me. I don't like doing this. I do prefer being a software engineer, a recruiter, a whatever the job is, right? The individual. job. And that's great. And we should also be okay with that. I think trying to force somebody into leadership or a managerial role really has a good outcome. So I think we need to be able to give people that space to say, I'll try this, but if it doesn't work, that's okay as well. Ty: And I'd love to revisit this 2023 period as well. You said something that I I think is becoming increasing. I think to honestly, it's always been this way, that there really isn't a playbook for leadership. But now with my goodness, how fast things are moving, I think it's becoming even just more that appar, you know, that much more apparent that there is no playbook. I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about what what that's like for you, getting to that, you know, light bulb moment where you realize, I gotta, I gotta work a little bit on the fly here. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think it's again goes back to sort of noticing what's happening and paying attention to it. And I think sometimes when you I mean, I have a high achievement drive, I know that about myself. And you can get really hooked onto the achievement, right? Meaning you can get very hooked into, I've got to, you know, I've got to impress, you know, my new boss and my new team. I've got to make sure we, you know, I was at the time working on a a talent strategy like that's, you got to really make sure that's that's that's front and center. And not that I wasn't paying attention to the team and we'd I we'd we'd done a lot of work together and on. sites and really trying to bring that team together. But I think just being able to put sometimes the the actual the to-dos aside or the like here's the next big milestone and we're like, right. Again, it goes back to that thing of, are the team with you? Right? Are you looking over your shoulder? Are they following you? Or are they behind and and sort of struggling? And that was a situation we were in. And so it doesn't matter how many great like, you know, slide decks we put together about this the talent strategy and the rest of it. Like the reality was that team was not connected. They were struggling individually. We were struggling as a unit. We had, like I said, a lot of challenges that nothing to do with the team actually, but we're impacting the team in different ways. And so I think it's and maybe this has come just with age and experience, right? Is being willing to kind of put some of those things to the side and say, look, we'll get back to that. We will get whatever that project is or that timeline we're driving to, we'll get to it. But we cannot be successful with it if we don't pay attention to the the humans, right, that are that are going on there. So and I think even maybe I don't know, eight, nine years earlier Thai, I don't know if I would have been able to do that. I think I would have really tried to like slog on even more to to try and get the the strategic project delivered. and and maybe that, you know, would have probably been more negative for the team. So I'm glad I had more of that awareness. Ty: No, I think that that discernment of you know when and and to what degree we're talking about the you know the distinction between support and challenge, but also like working on versus working in the team and and when to pull the vehicle over to the side of the road, right? And and refuel rather than just continue chugging along down the road as you know an essential wisdom to have as as a leader. Danielle: Yeah, yeah. And and it's and I wouldn't say by the way I'm completely cured of my achievement hook. I mean, even last year as well, I would say there's other instances the project we were working on that I'm still working on, you know, just ended up being all consuming. You know, when we we burned out. We unfortunately we we, you know, we really had some burnout on the team. Our programme manager was totally burned out and again it was a bit of a timeout moment just to say, wait a minute, this is we're just we're running from one meeting to a next. Like the we're not the the meetings are driving the work. We've like we've lost track of kind of what we're trying to do. And so again, it was a moment that right stop, let's just pause and and reset. And I I think we just are gonna have to keep doing that type, right? As the work around us continues to change so rapidly, that ability to like, yeah, as you said, pull the car over to the side of the road or just take that

time out is really, really important. Ty: I mean, in in my experience, that is what awareness work looks like over time. We just continue catching it, right? We've got particular patterns of behavior, whether it's individual or collective, and we do our best to catch it. And maybe we catch it a little earlier next time, right? Pullover a little bit sooner. but that sounds like the the way to go. What's what's your vision, Danielle, for your own leadership, your legacy, or the impact that you'd like to have in the years ahead? Danielle: Yeah, I mean I I've for several years I've always said, you know, I love to help people fulfill their potential and that really is one of the things that drives me. And I'm lucky in the work that I do because I in lead talent teams, that that gets to be not just potential on my own team, right? In the people that work for me, but the you know, I have huge impact of that across organizations. So in the people that we hire, and the people that come through development programs or you know, talent management programming that that I'm responsible for and I take that. responsibility very seriously as well that I think people's career is a huge part of their identity, their self-worth, their value. So it's really important to make sure that we do help them do that. And I think if I go back to the earlier part of our conversation around having high standards and what my mum, right, kind of did for me was similar, kind of is is a telling people you have potential, you have high potential, like how and how can we help get, you know, get you there. And I think the other thing I would love, aside from the helping people reach their potential, is helping individuals and and organizations navigate change successfully. I think that's been something that I've been actively involved in. Certainly the last, you know, well, probably my whole career, quite honestly. Like in consulting, that was part of it with our clients, with working in tech organizations the last 10 years have been part of huge change, growth, mostly positive change, sometimes not positive change, but helping kind of be that navigator role I think is another key thing that I've tried to to do as a as a leader. Ty: Well, obviously change management is a is a massive you know, massive, massive concept on it. So we could probably dedicate, you know, an entire time to hear, you know, to discuss it. you know, what's a what's a nugget though, that you feel like something that has helped you that may help others in terms of navigating change as Danielle: Yeah. Ty: a Danielle: I mean, I think one of the the most important things you can do is be honest about what you know and what you don't know. And I think often, you know, we le people are looking to you as the leader to have all the answers. And what has worked well for me in several situations across the years, whether it's been, you know, navigating through layoffs, whether it's been, you know, doing a full kind of team transformation and and and reset is saying that this is what I do know and this is what I don't know yet. And we are gonna figure some of those things out. But People will only follow you in that situation, Ty, if they have trust. And so the trust has to be built repeatedly. You can't get to those moments of change or crisis and suddenly be like, great, everybody follow me. You know, you have to trust me just because I'm, you know, the leader and I have this job title. That's never gonna work. And so I I also am very strong about building that trust repeatedly. So even small things, right? Every week, you know, I do a weekly note to the entire organization on Slack. I make sure that we have our team meetings. I make sure that we show up in certain ways because those small things are what builds trust, right? People can depend on you. They know that they that you will do what you say you're going to do. They know that you will send the note. They know that you will engage with them in a certain way. And it takes time, you know, for people to believe that. But once they do believe that and you demonstrate that enough times, then in those moments of change or crisis, they're willing to follow you. Everybody, but most people will be. Ty: I think you're really touching on something really important here, which is that it's it's easier to take for granted, maybe in times when things are a little bit more stable or a little bit more easy. And when I really hear you saying, the way I've sort of put it is like, you know, build it when it's easy so that it's easier when it's hard. Danielle: my goodness, yes, that's the perfect way to to sum it up. And I think that's why leadership, you're never off, right? You can't be just kind of like, cool, like the team's doing well, so I can just like kind of kick back a little bit and and don't worry about some of those things. There's always something, you know, you should always be checking in with people. If you happen to have more more time available, then use that time, right? Use that to to kind of do skip levels, use that to you know, to do focus groups on the team or kind of get them involved in in idea generation. there's no, you know, you don't want to be in full change management, crisis management all the time. that's exhausting, but I I think you're right. It's not just about sitting on your laurels when you think things are just going fine. There's still investment you need to make. Ty: How about you, Danielle? Where are you feeling most tested yourself right now? What challenges are stretching you the most in leadership and life currently? Danielle: my goodness. I mean, what an honor it is to be a leader right now and what a challenge it is to be a leader right now. I mean, I think we are going through the most disruptive period of work right broadly that we've seen in multiple generations. So again, I feel a great responsibility in that, especially with the the role that I have of not just

impacting my own team, but how we think about what the future of work looks like for thousands of employees. But but more broadly than that time and I think I'm part of a community that we're trying to figure this out like what does this look like at a societal level, right? How is AI going to change things? How are the different you know all the geopolitical challenges Is going on. Like ever since the COVID pandemic, I think people working in the HR space, it's been a very challenging area. And the biggest thing is at the moment, I think, is just the pace of things, the pace of that change, and trying to balance. How we kind of make sure we are bringing people along with us on that journey while trying to just work at such a ridiculous pace. And what is getting confused right now is that the the speed of the technology that's available does not match up with the speed of human ability, right? Human behavior and the ab the ability to absorb change. And so I think that's where I find myself. caught in the middle a little bit of like trying to absolutely make sure that as organizations and teams we are evolving and we're changing and we're adopting new technology and we're doing all those things. And I'm very committed to doing those things and leading a lot of that work, but also recognizing the human element of this and giving people some of the space and time to do that. And I think in that, you know, is is for me as well as as anybody else, Ty. I I think the the whole aeroplane adage of you know put your own oxygen mask on first is absolutely true right now for all leaders and I cannot help my team or this organization if I am not able to to take care of myself and just give myself some some space. So that's been something I've been actively working on over the last few months is really trying to think how do I need to work in a different way. And yes, for me that has involved how how I'm using AI personally to work in different ways. but also you know how I'm managing my time, how I'm making sure I've got enough space to do the thinking and space to have the conversations that need to be had. and you know, because if I'm not able to be a good leader, then that impacts, you know, everybody around me. Ty: I'm curious if if you'd be if you'd be willing to share maybe what's what's something that you are doing, 'cause I'm I almost guarantee this will be relevant for for for most people. It just what's an example right now for you? Danielle: Yeah, so there's there's two things. One is sort of physical and one is one is more on the academic side. So Physically during COVID, I mean I had never really had a regular exercise practice, but during COVID I I did and I kinda did like online exercise. And one of the things I really fallen in love with is yoga, which frankly I used to think was super boring and just for hippies and not interested at all. And I apologize to anybody that I've said that to previously. I think for me it is an incredible way to really like calm my mind down and just focus. And so I try and do that three or four times a week. And even if it's just fifty 15 minutes at time, 10 minutes at a time sometimes. it's just a moment to sort of re-reset and kind of get mind, body, and soul sort of in a in a good spot. So that's been really important for me. The other thing on the more academic or kind of how I work side is using AI. So I'm using Chat GPT as my chief of staff. I've kind of trained it with how I think about things. This is within our enterprise model, so we're not sharing things in the broader Chat GPT ecosystem, but That has been honestly a game changer for me. And not just because it's helped be a thought partner, but feeding it so much context. And asking it questions, but also asking it to coach me on certain situations and give me feedback. And it's been a really helpful sort of voice on my shoulder on like, wait, wait a minute, like, are you gonna jump in and solve that problem? Or is this for somebody else to solve? are you helping to just surface the problem or are you helping to identify the system, right, and the operating model that is that is happening here? and it's been incredible. And for somebody that has obviously worked in the coaching and development space for a long time, I am impressed. and humbled by how good it it is at kind of pointing some of these things out. I don't think it's a replacement for a full human code. I don't think you can rely on those things alone, but it has helped me dramatically shift how I work, how I spend my time in the last few months, and I'm very grateful for that. Ty: Amazing. You know, we're talking so much, of course, right now about the uniqueness of this point in history, the rapid pace of change. What's your take on what's really separating the leaders who are excelling right now from those who are really struggling? Danielle: I think so much of, and maybe it's a theme of our conversation, right, is is letting go of your old identity through this. I think if you're still trying to cling on to kind of an old fashioned like command and control, or like I am the expert, you know, I am the I'm the boss, you know, type of method, it's just so hard. There's so much that we just don't know right now. And so being willing to say, I don't know, I'm not sure, but I'm gonna help figure it out, or you know, we are going to figure it out, I think is just very reassuring for people and human. For people. So being willing to say, like, look, my role is changing, like how I'm spending my time is changing, and this is why. opens that up for other people, right? To feel to know that they can also be be shifting. I think the other thing is just an oldie but a goodie, right? Is is growth mindset, right? Being willing to ask questions, learn, get things wrong, right? Embarrass yourself sometimes in front of in front of people because you've asked something that is maybe an obvious question or you've been trying out a new AI tool and

you kind of screwed it up, you didn't know what to do and probably your twelve, thirteen year old child is is better at navigating it than you are. all those things I think are are helpful, right? Being having that like just openness to kind of do things in a different way. The other thing I think is recognizing the enormity of this of this change and treating it in that way, right? I don't think we can just sort of wing it and and like we'll just figure it all out as we go. I think we have to also lean into some of the things that we know work through significant change, right? And change management, right? Making sure there's like regular communication, you're being vulnerable, you're building trust. you're helping to engage and give people a safe space to share, those things of all kinds of change across across the past few decades are things that work. And I think we need to make sure we are using those tools and those techniques in this change as well. Ty: So this last question here is more of an invitation. you have the time and the space here to offer up to our listeners whatever it is that's most in your mind and heart to share right now. Anything at all. Take your time. The floor is yours. Danielle: Thank you. Yeah, I mean I was just so honored to be invited to this podcast, Ty, because I do feel like leadership. is a huge part of who I am and and what I love to do. And I also feel there's extra pressure right when you're in roles around talent and HR and leadership. It's like, you've got to be this perfect leader. And I felt that honestly for many years because you're like, well I I must be perfect at this because I'm I'm helping teach other people how to do it. And so I think that's been one of the big layout you know learnings as well of like I can't be perfect. Nobody can be perfect. And so giving myself some grace in that in that time and I would offer that to other leaders as well. Is is probably gonna buy you more credibility and trust and loyalty from your team than trying to be this sort of perfect you know robotic leader. Like that that's not going to be what what kind of gets you there in the end. And and I think I've also learned, I've learned probably more about leadership in the difficult times than in the times that have been going great, right? In the times, you know, where I've had to have really hard conversations with individuals and and you know do layoffs and and deal with tragedies you know on on on the team that's taught me more because those are human experiences and leadership is at its core it's a it's a human act and so I think remembering that helps keep you grounded in the midst of all the corporate noise all the deadlines all the initiatives all the quarterly goals that we often find ourselves surrounded by getting down to kind of like leadership is really just helping other people. and it's a great privilege to be in that in that role. Ty: Well, Danielle, I so appreciate the wisdom that you've shared here with me today. I've really gotten so much out of it, and I'm sure that whoever listens is equally gonna benefit from what you've shared. Thank you so much for being my guest on the True Leadership Podcast. Danielle: Thanks having me.