התמלול המלא של Tom Milani

decided to try to write some PI novels. 03:07.106 --> 03:14.151 [SPEAKER_00]: I took a mystery class, mystery writing class at the Ryder Center in Bethesda, which is still there. 03:17.932 --> 03:34.064 [SPEAKER_00]: 93 took the class, I think, and wrote a first person PI story, PI novel, and submitted to agents the first one, so I know second one said yes, and I thought I was on my way. 03:35.022 --> 03:38.367 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I wasn't, I still had a ton to learn. 03:39.669 --> 03:43.855 [SPEAKER_00]: The thing that novel gave me was, I knew once that I could finish an novel. 03:44.436 --> 03:46.299 [SPEAKER_00]: And once I did, I knew I could write another. 03:47.281 --> 03:50.285 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was good for that, but the book, 03:51.670 --> 03:53.751 [SPEAKER_00]: has, needs a lot, wouldn't need a lot of work. 03:53.871 --> 04:09.799 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm going to look at the pack at it and can see that, but so I did three novels with her and she wasn't able to sell any, and then because I was stubborn and I wrote two more, and then I decided to do standalone fiction, and that kind of opened up things for me. 04:10.940 --> 04:13.801 [SPEAKER_00]: And then to, 04:15.133 --> 04:29.151 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably four or five years maybe longer than that on Stacey Woodson who you may know she's she's written on like 40 or 50 short stories when a lot of awards, but she arranged with for Michael back and to give her presentation. 04:30.853 --> 04:32.094 [SPEAKER_00]: on submitting to editors. 04:32.134 --> 04:37.416 [SPEAKER_00]: And to be honest with you, I didn't really know much of anything about the short crime fiction market. 04:37.557 --> 04:39.437 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I had no idea how this submit. 04:39.498 --> 04:39.998 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know. 04:40.798 --> 04:44.900 [SPEAKER_00]: So he gave his talk which was incredibly informative and then not long after that. 04:46.241 --> 04:49.342 [SPEAKER_00]: He had a call for his first 04:50.743 --> 05:03.836 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm serious, well, I had a serious call to a groovy, I'm sorry, an anthology called groovy gum shoes, privatized in the psychedelic 60s, and he's done one for every decade up to the 90s so far. 05:04.837 --> 05:15.347 [SPEAKER_00]: But that was an open call, so I wrote a story for it, submitted it, he took it, and then I was kind of on my way with short story writing, so from there. 05:17.127 --> 05:33.550 [SPEAKER_01]: So, I love the path and the short story, but also novels at the same time, and learning structure, which you did in college, but figuring out how to use it and how to do things. 05:34.471 --> 05:35.352 [SPEAKER_01]: and build on it. 05:35.452 --> 05:42.101 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's not a easy thing to stop what you just said about your first novel. 05:42.181 --> 05:46.546 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, at the time, you thought that's it and I'm amazing the shade. 05:46.887 --> 05:52.354 [SPEAKER_01]: And now you're like, oh, I know so much more now I could actually try and fix this. 05:52.534 --> 05:52.634 [SPEAKER_00]: But 05:52.794 --> 05:57.198 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think just writing, so I wrote five P.I. 05:57.238 --> 06:17.154 [SPEAKER_00]: novels and I've written three standalins and just like you get better, I get better with plot and I've had I've been in writer's groups forever and and I also have some friends who are really good readers and you know when you get feedback from people you trust and make 06:22.796 --> 06:48.272 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, at one point, my agent tried to say, you know, maybe, you know, what you're doing is really traditional, so you're not only competing with all the writers out there now, you're also competing without, with all the dead writers who are still in print because they're classics and you have to time, like I just couldn't see a way beyond it and, and that, you know, that wasn't a father hers, but, you know, like, 06:49.491 --> 06:54.736 [SPEAKER_00]: I was in my thirties or whatever, and it wasn't really quite sure where to go. 06:54.756 --> 07:10.409 [SPEAKER_00]: And when I finally decided I'd just stand alone, it was like, okay, I don't have the pressure of a series, I don't have the pressure of, you know, first person narrative, I can, I can have a different kind of a timeline, and that just opened up things for me. 07:11.310 --> 07:13.192 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that helped me. 07:14.172 --> 07:17.973 [SPEAKER_00]: Be a better writer and now I mean some of my short stories I'm back. 07:18.293 --> 07:26.135 [SPEAKER_00]: I've written some Well sign the time is the one that's going to be in the In the best PI stories of the year. 07:26.155 --> 07:35.638 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that's the first person female PI story So I have published four or five of those and I have a few Mail PI stories in fact the P the 07:37.002 --> 07:48.671 [SPEAKER_00]: Steve Kaler, the protagonist from the PI novels, I wasn't able to sell, I kept him alive in short stories, so I don't feel like, you know, that time was necessarily wasted. 07:48.731 --> 08:01.081 [SPEAKER_00]: I could have been more efficient, maybe, or more intentional, but, you know, I have these characters I created who live on, even if they aren't in novels, so that's gratifying in its own way. 08:02.933 --> 08:14.318 [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to ask you if the series character sits in the room with you to happen as fingers and saying, when's my time turned, but you bring them back out in short stories, which is great. 08:14.898 --> 08:25.443 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I really enjoyed it because my character has an office in Old Town and my female PI basically inherits his old office, so he's sort of a mentor to her. 08:32.413 --> 08:32.693 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 08:33.274 --> 08:34.555 [SPEAKER_01]: And are they current day? 08:35.817 --> 08:37.919 [SPEAKER_00]: The female PI stories are current day. 08:37.959 --> 08:44.766 [SPEAKER_00]: The ones I've done with the male PI, I have one set in the 80s and one

set in the 90s. 08:45.847 --> 08:49.111 [SPEAKER_01]: So practically historical time. 08:50.192 --> 08:51.933 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, unfortunately it's my history. 08:52.775 --> 08:58.621 [SPEAKER_01]: I miss a lot of health here, so talk to me. 08:58.781 --> 09:06.169 [SPEAKER_01]: And your stand-alone, she's talked about sort of the freedom of being able to explore point of view and timeline to things like that. 09:06.229 --> 09:11.375 [SPEAKER_01]: Talk to me about those challenges you put in front of yourself when writing your stand-alone. 09:11.931 --> 09:22.778 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the novelized sold places that are gone, that has like five different points of view, and it's not linear. 09:23.498 --> 09:34.725 [SPEAKER_00]: So the first section is from two points of view, my protagonist spent a while there, and his hitchhiker, he picks up Liz Machina and the chapters alternate, but so, 09:37.278 --> 09:45.601 [SPEAKER_00]: they're kind of overlapping like he picks her up and then the next chapter talks about her experience hitchhiking when she gets picked up by him. 09:46.142 --> 09:59.407 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's sort of like forward back forward a little bit, not a true flashback, but and I did it that way because I wanted to give her perspective on what he was had. 09:59.587 --> 10:03.108 [SPEAKER_00]: What he thought he was experiencing and what she was doing 10:05.768 --> 10:15.755 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're in a conversation with somebody and you talk about it afterward and they see things completely different from the way you did, I kind of want to explore that dynamic. 10:16.896 --> 10:24.521 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, as I kept writing a novel, I decided, you know, I wanted to have other characters tell their story. 10:25.182 --> 10:33.707 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a mental while there's a, in a troubled marriage as life has had affairs and, um, 10:34.708 --> 10:46.276 [SPEAKER_00]: So I did a section from her point of view and her lover's point of view because I wanted to explore those dynamics as well. 10:47.357 --> 10:51.980 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was challenging that way, but it was also, 10:53.861 --> 10:59.463 [SPEAKER_00]: When characters talk to you or you hear their voices or you want to know what they think, then that's what I read. 10:59.683 --> 11:04.285 [SPEAKER_00]: So for me it was kind of a, it was fun. 11:04.545 --> 11:15.829 [SPEAKER_00]: It was hard, but it was fun, because I sort of felt like with that book, I kind of, I want to go dark, but I want to be honest too. 11:20.032 --> 11:24.894 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, have a little empathy for even the characters that aren't necessarily sympathetic? 11:25.734 --> 11:27.215 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 11:27.675 --> 11:33.017 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, that's what makes villains interesting, right? 11:33.077 --> 11:39.479 [SPEAKER_01]: Is when you actually see some humanity in them and you can empathize and realize that they're full characters. 11:39.519 --> 11:42.280 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a much richer experience for readers, I think. 11:42.641 --> 11:43.561 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree. 11:44.977 --> 11:49.819 [SPEAKER_01]: So you were set aside, said, you know, this novel is complicated. 11:49.859 --> 11:51.760 [SPEAKER_01]: Talk to me about your writing process. 11:51.840 --> 11:56.101 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you know that this was going to be how it went? 11:56.141 --> 12:00.123 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you, did you, you know, plot it in advance? 12:00.183 --> 12:03.804 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you know that the middle couple was going to talk? 12:03.824 --> 12:05.945 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how did you approach the novel? 12:06.397 --> 12:31.933 [SPEAKER_00]: okay this one it's the only one I've done like this but it's also the only one I've sold so for what it's where I started this during national novel writing month nanarima which used to be a thing um I really thought the idea was kind of crazy to write that much in that shorter time but my couple friends of mine were doing it and they encouraged me to do it and then I think on sisters in crime or local chapter they had two women 12:32.733 --> 12:39.581 [SPEAKER_00]: who talked about their process, one outline, the other one just wrote by the silver pants, which is how I write. 12:39.981 --> 12:42.224 [SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, fine. 12:42.244 --> 12:47.890 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I started like after midnight on the first night and wrote, you know, like two thousand words or something. 12:48.651 --> 12:49.111 [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, 12:49.912 --> 12:57.538 [SPEAKER_00]: But I wrote everything from Bennett's point of view, and I didn't hit 50,000, I hit like 42,000 at the end of the month. 12:58.278 --> 13:02.862 [SPEAKER_00]: And it sort of literally ended with him and Liz driving off into the sunset. 13:03.803 --> 13:07.946 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought about for a while I said, no, I can't end like that. 13:08.626 --> 13:10.828 [SPEAKER_00]: But I wanted to, that's what I mentioned earlier. 13:10.848 --> 13:15.472 [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to, so I filled in the chapters, but Bennett's chapters with Liz. 13:16.192 --> 13:28.640 [SPEAKER_00]: And that, so that gave me her motivation, it added some richness and complication to the plot, and then I kept going and then I wrote, I didn't write this 13:29.801 --> 13:31.102 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess I did right, literally. 13:31.562 --> 13:37.784 [SPEAKER_00]: Then I decided to give Shelley Bennett's wife give her perspective and her lovers perspective. 13:38.624 --> 13:45.367 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Bennett has her friend named Paul, who they have a kind of a complicated history going back a few years. 13:46.508 --> 13:48.668 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I wrote to I wrote his part. 13:49.069 --> 13:51.930 [SPEAKER_00]: So I had all these pieces coming together. 13:51.990 --> 13:54.251 [SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't outline, and I knew the end. 13:55.531 --> 14:01.994 [SPEAKER_00]: was probably going to be dark, but until I actually got to the last

chapter, I didn't know how I was in, until I wrote it. 14:02.694 --> 14:05.475 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was the one chapter that didn't get very much revision. 14:07.856 --> 14:16.480 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the idea I rewriting after I finished the draft and I got some great feedback from people, but that was the process for that book. 14:18.123 --> 14:32.574 [SPEAKER_00]: But normally, when I write a chapter or a scene, I write a long hand, and then I'll type it up, edit it online, print it out, edit it, and then go on to the next scene for the next chapter, and so. 14:37.530 --> 14:38.691 [SPEAKER_01]: your cancer. 14:38.811 --> 14:41.533 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I'm, I'm a nerd about this. 14:41.674 --> 14:45.577 [SPEAKER_01]: I love talking about process with people because nobody does it the same way. 14:45.957 --> 14:54.124 [SPEAKER_01]: And if, if, if there's any message from listening to this podcast for writers who are trying to figure it out, it's, you got to figure out what works for you. 14:54.585 --> 14:58.708 [SPEAKER_01]: And it may not work for you the next time to try, but, you know, have tools. 15:03.690 --> 15:12.276 [SPEAKER_01]: you type it in, you print it out, you edit it again, you go back to the computer, you polish it, and then you write the next scene. 15:12.797 --> 15:13.037 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 15:13.552 --> 15:36.203 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, in your, are you taking notes, are you writing ahead on your legal, your pad of paper saying, oh, I got at some point they've got to eat pastrami and over here, they've got to ride the roller coaster, I mean, you know, is your is your imagination going or are you focused and then your imagination has permission to start with the next scene. 15:36.620 --> 15:37.940 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's turned on the case. 15:38.040 --> 15:42.401 [SPEAKER_00]: Once in a while, I'll make a note or two about what I want to have happen. 15:42.441 --> 15:44.441 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say, you know, he does this, he does this, he does that. 15:45.242 --> 15:48.902 [SPEAKER_00]: But by and large, I kind of let my imagination go. 15:49.002 --> 16:02.805 [SPEAKER_00]: What I will do is I got this big fat notebook, and when I get stuck, and I know you talked about writer's plaque, but I'll get stuck on plots sometimes, and it's happened with short stories when novels, and then I just start brainstorming. 16:04.505 --> 16:10.431 [SPEAKER_00]: I do it by myself, but it's like, it's almost free writing, this happens, this happens, this happens, okay, that won't work. 16:11.111 --> 16:15.295 [SPEAKER_00]: And just give my permission to do whatever, you know, no judgment. 16:15.836 --> 16:25.865 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like having the ideal brainstorming partner, but I'll do that for a while, like three or four pages of that until something rises to the surface, and then I'll go forward. 16:26.565 --> 16:28.147 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I do it if I get stuck. 16:29.617 --> 16:36.519 [SPEAKER_01]: And you ever, when you're working so stay your work in a novel, do you ever have ideas that aren't going to work in the novel? 16:36.559 --> 16:45.302 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, ah, that's a great idea for short story or, oh, this character would be good for another novel or are you disciplined and you're just focusing on the project. 16:45.470 --> 16:48.792 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm usually focused on the project, yeah. 16:49.712 --> 17:06.781 [SPEAKER_00]: When I, the last novel I wrote, which I'm pitching, that took me a couple of years because I got invited to write it in a palace so I put the novel side and did that, but generally when I'm working on the novel, I don't. 17:07.782 --> 17:09.503 [SPEAKER_00]: I try not to get, I have, 17:11.338 --> 17:32.430 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, some difficulty focusing, I just, I always have, and I think, you know, it's, it's, it's got worse as I got older, but, um, so I don't, I don't try to bounce around projects very often, I try to just stay on whatever I'm working on, because, um, 17:33.658 --> 17:40.159 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the frustration writing is when you get stuck, but I've always liked problem solving. 17:40.579 --> 17:45.000 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this as faction is finding a way through. 17:45.980 --> 17:52.982 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, there's nothing better when, if you're on the scene and you don't know how to get out of it, or you feel like you've written yourself in the corner and then you find a way out. 17:53.602 --> 17:57.003 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, aha, you know, that's really great. 17:57.043 --> 17:59.583 [SPEAKER_00]: Or sometimes I'll get, like, a short story, 18:04.422 --> 18:21.292 [SPEAKER_00]: pulling out plot problems, and then I have a friend who reads him, and he'll say, you know, like, suggest other ways of doing things, or, you know, say, well, they're beginning to really not strong, so it could be your things like that. 18:21.392 --> 18:26.555 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I can really, like, on the revision, kind of get it, get it right. 18:27.513 --> 18:31.174 [SPEAKER_00]: But I do like solving problems. 18:31.194 --> 18:36.475 [SPEAKER_00]: I was one of the things when I worked, you know, just, I never, it wasn't too late in my career. 18:36.495 --> 18:37.415 [SPEAKER_00]: I really thought about it. 18:37.495 --> 18:40.776 [SPEAKER_00]: But like the things I always enjoyed about work were helping people. 18:41.216 --> 18:42.537 [SPEAKER_00]: I was an editor for a long time. 18:42.917 --> 18:44.157 [SPEAKER_00]: And then solving problems. 18:44.257 --> 18:47.698 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a lot of editing is a solving problem. 18:48.995 --> 19:02.859 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so you have an editor's brain as well so that that's absolutely part of what's what gives you that I'm going to fix I'm going to edit and I'm going to polish so that my brain is able to 19:10.101 --> 19:31.518 [SPEAKER_00]: you know when you have a paragraph you kind of want to vary the sentence like and you don't

want to repeat words and all that and I know for some of your writers it's a draft just keep pushing through and then go back but I can't I can't I can't really do that and that's not judgment attached it's just how my you know how I'm wired I guess 19:32.931 --> 19:37.833 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so your draft, your first draft is very polished. 19:37.873 --> 19:43.135 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, you tell me about that next revision. 19:43.175 --> 19:51.459 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, is it just cleaning up or is it as you talked about with your first novel going and saying, I'm missing a section here? 19:51.499 --> 20:00.963 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like the writing is pretty solid, you know, my first draft or when I'm ready to show to people, but sometimes a plot, a plot needs work. 20:01.583 --> 20:15.755 [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I know that that's probably the one weakness in my writing is that my plots first drafts through maybe they're not as strong as they could be or they're not as tight as they could be or they're might or the order of events might not not work. 20:16.656 --> 20:28.125 [SPEAKER_00]: So I do a lot of like rearranging even, or especially with short stories, sometimes I'll move I'll move scenes around or change the way characters meet other characters. 20:29.426 --> 20:37.890 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's plot stuff, but I feel like the dialogue usually pretty tight and the word choice is usually pretty good. 20:38.250 --> 20:45.193 [SPEAKER_00]: So the plot, the part that is kind of the hardest for me to get, right? 20:46.693 --> 20:51.696 [SPEAKER_01]: So when we started this conversation, talked about as an undergrad, being an English major, 20:53.155 --> 21:02.521 [SPEAKER_01]: went to do literary fiction and now you moved into genre, you know, I mean, amazing influences in that area. 21:02.621 --> 21:16.170 [SPEAKER_01]: Kane is not read as much as he should be now or appreciate as much, but, you know, you chose a genre that requires plot, I mean, just solid plot. 21:16.250 --> 21:18.071 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting that you gave 21:19.914 --> 21:22.357 [SPEAKER_01]: something a continual challenge. 21:22.458 --> 21:24.280 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just an observation, right? 21:24.320 --> 21:24.781 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 21:25.101 --> 21:30.769 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, I've read, you know, I like biography, Raymond Chandler, and about heaven. 21:31.630 --> 21:32.832 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, 21:33.925 --> 21:39.489 [SPEAKER_00]: What drew me to crime, action was the way he was so atmospheric with his writing and his characters are so rich. 21:39.809 --> 21:42.451 [SPEAKER_00]: But I couldn't tell you the plot, so that he had his books really. 21:43.231 --> 21:53.098 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, or there's, I think there's probably even some, it should be a greater people of red and more closely than I, you know, but you're right. 21:53.138 --> 21:54.639 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it is sort of a disconnect. 21:55.379 --> 22:01.584 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I like crime writers who are more literary and in general, you know, I think there's, 22:02.664 --> 22:20.877 [SPEAKER_00]: those lines are blurred too in a lot of ways and I a lot of times like I don't like how everything is sort of pitch and hold well this is a genre this is a sub genre and you know I know it's about like where booksellers want to put their books and where agents want to 22:22.278 --> 22:24.479 [SPEAKER_00]: market their books, but I don't know. 22:24.499 --> 22:28.040 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, like the Nicobois just the pickings app, I mean, that's a great book. 22:28.500 --> 22:31.141 [SPEAKER_00]: It's literature, but it's also a crime novel. 22:31.201 --> 22:35.503 [SPEAKER_00]: And it takes place in a, a prison for children. 22:35.583 --> 22:41.485 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's just, and it's so, I agree. 22:42.165 --> 22:42.866 [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, 22:47.333 --> 22:52.956 [SPEAKER_01]: one of the founders of Sisters in Crime was one of the early presidents, but she says that literary is just another genre. 22:53.276 --> 23:03.962 [SPEAKER_01]: Like if we're going to pigeonhole and these days it's kind of exciting because a lot of different genres are mashing up and looking at each other differently and I think that's exciting. 23:04.462 --> 23:05.703 [SPEAKER_00]: I agree completely. 23:05.743 --> 23:14.048 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think I think it's good when people do things like that because that shows experimentation and you know, think about why it goes 23:15.208 --> 23:30.422 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I thought like Kurt Vonnegut, he was one of my literary heroes growing up, because I, and he would have little drawings in his, his books, and, you know, he would kind of break the fourth wall with the writing and all that thought, that's the most original thing in the world. 23:30.582 --> 23:31.623 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just so mind-blowing. 23:31.643 --> 23:37.628 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I had a class in 18th century literature, and I think we had to read a recording of the writer. 23:37.648 --> 23:41.491 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's like one of the pages was all black, and then there are pages of squiggles on it. 23:43.480 --> 23:46.503 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's 18 century guys were doing some weird stuff too. 23:46.563 --> 23:50.306 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, yeah, it's, that's good. 23:52.167 --> 23:58.012 [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things that I love talking to people about when they are both. 23:58.855 --> 24:08.342 [SPEAKER_01]: The novel and short story is the difference between the different forms, because not everyone can write in both forms. 24:08.422 --> 24:14.406 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just because you can write a novel doesn't mean you're going to be good at the short fiction and vice versa. 24:14.886 --> 24:21.490 [SPEAKER_01]: Although, you know, short fiction requires the same structure, you know, story structure and you got to tell a story. 24:21.791 --> 24:26.414 [SPEAKER_01]: But can you

talk about that, you know, when do you have the idea? 24:27.649 --> 24:33.877 [SPEAKER_01]: That you know it's going to be short-serve versus when do you have idea that that's hanging together to be a novel? 24:35.299 --> 24:37.241 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think because 24:38.955 --> 24:58.866 [SPEAKER_00]: Right now, the short story market's more accessible than the novel market, even if I have novel ideas, I kind of have sort of put them on the back burner because it's so hard to get published, but I think I've been well, one thing that's happened is I've been invited to submit to some anthology. 25:07.099 --> 25:13.762 [SPEAKER_00]: Since I've started doing these female PI stories, I mean, that's always around one case. 25:15.083 --> 25:21.446 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think I go into it with the idea, okay, this is, we're gonna have one problem to be solved. 25:22.027 --> 25:28.670 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it's gonna be what my character thinks it is, but it's gonna be presented as something like that. 25:28.730 --> 25:30.491 [SPEAKER_00]: So I sort of go into it with that approach. 25:33.117 --> 25:46.842 [SPEAKER_00]: I've done some flash and that's where you just try to capture kind of a moment, a scene in a moment and I really enjoy the challenge of that, trying to tell a complete story and you know, a thousand words or something. 25:47.663 --> 25:54.746 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think my mindset's been geared toward toward those markets and that's informed, you know what I'm writing, but 25:58.847 --> 26:15.215 [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I've purposely haven't thought about like what we make a good novel, what we make a, you know, a big, a big story because I'm kind of reluctant to go through that again until until I can get an agent or so or so another, you know, so another novel. 26:17.156 --> 26:23.019 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, a few people I know have taken short stories with the same character. 26:24.701 --> 26:33.446 [SPEAKER_01]: And woven them together eventually, you know, edited, added and done them so that they're sort of a woven, the short series of woven into novel length. 26:33.766 --> 26:37.228 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's another interesting trend that I'm seeing. 26:37.408 --> 26:38.328 [SPEAKER_00]: I like that a lot. 26:38.749 --> 26:40.230 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a Irish writer. 26:40.250 --> 26:42.151 [SPEAKER_00]: I think his name is Donald Patrick who. 26:43.523 --> 26:49.247 [SPEAKER_00]: has, I think it's called the Spinning Heart and then I did a sequel to the about five years later. 26:49.847 --> 26:52.309 [SPEAKER_00]: And every chapter is from a different point of view. 26:52.789 --> 26:54.050 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like 20 characters. 26:54.750 --> 26:57.792 [SPEAKER_00]: The one character sort of the throughline was a story. 26:58.993 --> 27:05.037 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I'd like to do a collection of short stories featuring my female PI, my get enough. 27:05.457 --> 27:09.820 [SPEAKER_00]: And there'll be an arc there about her non-PI life. 27:11.754 --> 27:13.655 [SPEAKER_00]: That's already sort of seated into it. 27:17.496 --> 27:20.977 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I like that idea, I like the novel and stories. 27:21.077 --> 27:26.179 [SPEAKER_00]: I do our Taylor gave a wonderful class on that at this year's short count. 27:27.299 --> 27:30.420 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I've read a couple like that. 27:30.960 --> 27:32.861 [SPEAKER_00]: And I do like the approach. 27:34.668 --> 27:51.200 [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I'd for folks who are writing short fiction, but using the same characters or something, it's an interesting way to explore more without, you know, necessarily focusing on a novel. 27:51.220 --> 27:53.702 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, all of a sudden, no, no, no, they need to have a different adventure. 27:53.722 --> 27:57.645 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, these can be the adventure, and then we're just gonna add to it. 27:58.225 --> 27:58.885 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree. 27:59.006 --> 28:03.749 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, especially once you start living with characters for a while, I mean, they're kind of rattling around in your head. 28:04.856 --> 28:21.286 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, they talked to you or you know what they're going to say, or, you know, I'm sure you've experienced this where a character who you thought was going to be a minor character, just keeps popping up, you know, it's like Jesse from breaking bad. 28:21.306 --> 28:28.810 [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to write him all for a way, but it was so compelling a character that they kept them and he ends up being their last man standing. 28:29.811 --> 28:31.572 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think you have to, 28:33.372 --> 28:49.902 [SPEAKER_00]: um, trust your instincts and, you know, if a character keeps appearing or a character, you keep wanting to write about that character, then I think you should honor that and trust that feeling because it's probably going to lead you to the right place. 28:52.324 --> 28:59.128 [SPEAKER_01]: I think what I know, if you're folks who write series, um, often have secondary characters that 29:00.202 --> 29:12.890 [SPEAKER_01]: show up more and more and later books in the series help keep it fresh by taking a hope for the narrative at certain points because, you know, you need the secondary characters. 29:13.710 --> 29:14.991 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 29:15.171 --> 29:24.337 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think those dynamics are good because they can function one confunction is like a straight man to the other or one can be the the other one. 29:25.708 --> 29:42.335 [SPEAKER_00]: Can be, if they're good friends, you know, you can joke with your friends in a way that like a stranger couldn't, but, you know, if you, if you know them as well as family, but your friends, you know their foibles, you can kind of exploit that and I think time for the reader that's, that's kind of gratifying. 29:44.055 --> 29:49.998 [SPEAKER_00]: To hear, you know, one person sort of person the others bubble a

little bit and yeah. 29:52.290 --> 30:01.016 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that strikes me about short stories is that there's, you know, it's tight. 30:01.137 --> 30:02.878 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there aren't a lot of characters. 30:02.978 --> 30:07.121 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a complete story, but, you know, or there can be a lot of characters, but you focus. 30:07.381 --> 30:07.941 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't get it. 30:08.382 --> 30:14.706 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, short story writers trust the reader to make jumps. 30:15.007 --> 30:17.969 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have to explain everything like this is, 30:18.529 --> 30:28.794 [SPEAKER_01]: she's like this because her first husband did this or night, no, you can just put a sentence in that sort of helped position her for the reader and then you keep moving on. 30:28.874 --> 30:38.778 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not, there's a lot of trust with the reader that they're going to follow you for 5,000 words and they're going to trust that you're going to tell them the complete story. 30:39.279 --> 30:40.279 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 30:40.299 --> 30:41.540 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you have 30:46.995 --> 31:04.598 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what we owe the readers like I don't know really what readers expectations are and I'm not as interested in those as I want them I want to write something good enough that they're willing to come along for the ride and I think by keeping the pros tight but revealing 31:07.287 --> 31:16.213 [SPEAKER_00]: to allow the readers to make those gaps or to say, I know exactly how that character feels because of the way you, you know, you blank through their actions. 31:17.374 --> 31:20.396 [SPEAKER_00]: It, I completely believe that, believe the character. 31:20.416 --> 31:21.857 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right. 31:22.597 --> 31:28.501 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't, yes, you're showing how the characters react into the world so you don't have the tail over. 31:28.561 --> 31:28.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 31:29.602 --> 31:37.189 [SPEAKER_01]: Boy, that's one of the hardest things to really trust yourself as a writer, to do, to, you know, I mean, to, okay, I've done this. 31:37.249 --> 31:38.550 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm over explaining here. 31:38.570 --> 31:41.052 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me get rid of all that, right? 31:41.513 --> 31:43.315 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think I don't know. 31:44.468 --> 32:03.015 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember my writing classes, but if I had that pounded into me when I was younger or what, but I think the idea of letting the character's actions reveal character and motivation and all that rather than giving a really long explanation, I was just sort of taught those 32:08.208 --> 32:18.976 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure, no, tell, you know, but not really explaining what that means, you know, you have to write a bit until so that you can finally, oh, okay, I get it. 32:19.736 --> 32:20.697 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, right. 32:20.857 --> 32:24.099 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, right, I mean, the simple, you know, someone feels sad. 32:24.119 --> 32:34.867 [SPEAKER_00]: You can say, oh, she felt sad, but if you say, you know, she was dabbing her cheeks or her eyes with a tissue, it's what tells you that she's sad and, and like a more economical way, 32:36.126 --> 32:37.007 [SPEAKER_01]: and more impactful. 32:37.227 --> 32:39.489 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 32:41.111 --> 32:51.179 [SPEAKER_01]: So you are, you could, I mean, wonderful announcements for short stories and you've got the short stories coming out, your work count and novel. 32:51.660 --> 32:52.721 [SPEAKER_01]: What are you working on now? 32:53.257 --> 33:09.008 [SPEAKER_00]: Working on a revising short story, I read a 16-hundred-word story about a guy who gets caught up in a middle of a protest, submitted it to a bunch of places, no one took it, so I gave it to my writer's group, and they were really helpful. 33:09.228 --> 33:28.757 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they pointed out that we have a couple of guys who are kind of firearms experts in my group, so they pointed out like, well, this kind of around would not be a through and through around, so you can't do, you know, which is great, you know, it's said, no, it would leave a hole like this big when it left the person's body, so, okay, that's good. 33:29.278 --> 33:33.980 [SPEAKER_00]: The other people said, you know, the blocking isn't, we're not sure where everybody is and 33:38.742 --> 33:39.922 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was things like that. 33:40.062 --> 33:49.624 [SPEAKER_00]: So I've been in writers' group so long and I felt like I pretty good at taking criticism and editing, you know, comments. 33:50.324 --> 33:56.185 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's all Mark and I'm rewriting that story basically and response to all the comments I got. 33:56.605 --> 34:00.346 [SPEAKER_00]: And now I don't have a marker for that yet, but I'll find one, I hope. 34:01.506 --> 34:06.047 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, you can, you know, save short stories 34:08.672 --> 34:19.040 [SPEAKER_01]: You do, you can find a home calls for anthologies or, you know, tweaking or, I mean, it's not a waste of effort to make sure it's in keep them on in a file. 34:19.400 --> 34:20.321 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 34:20.901 --> 34:25.305 [SPEAKER_01]: What you wish you didn't know early on that you know now. 34:26.097 --> 34:29.479 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, I wish I'd known there was a short-fiction market for crime fiction. 34:29.579 --> 34:30.900 [SPEAKER_00]: I wish I'd known more about that. 34:32.841 --> 34:47.368 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I, and like the value writers' conferences, I'm not the most, I'm more, I'm sort of on the introvert side and not super social, but the writing conferences are good because you meet other people who are doing the same things you're doing. 34:47.388 --> 34:53.532 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, when you leave college, unless you're in a writer's group, you don't really have anyone 34:54.332 --> 35:03.575 [SPEAKER_00]: knows what

you're understanding, what you're doing, and here you can find a whole bunch of people who are, who can meet editors and things like that, just kind of the importance of community. 35:04.836 --> 35:05.756 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I wish I learned. 35:05.776 --> 35:19.041 [SPEAKER_00]: I wish I hadn't been so stubborn when I was writing my PI novels and maybe I tried to find a way to make it different rather than have the divorce PI with the bottle and the destroyer, you know, and the drinking problem. 35:19.881 --> 35:32.152 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's a time, it felt good to me, but like I realized, I wasn't original and I wasn't, I mean, the setting might have been okay, but I wasn't doing enough to really make it stand out. 35:32.472 --> 35:36.776 [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, well, I have tons of regrets, but there's nothing you can do about it. 35:36.816 --> 35:38.978 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, so I'm just trying to be better now. 35:39.433 --> 35:49.456 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and also those first novels tell you how to write a novel, I mean, so it's, and again, maybe, you know, go to the third one and see if that's the publisher. 35:49.676 --> 35:54.138 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's absolutely right, and I think I will do that, you know. 35:54.654 --> 35:59.497 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, but but you this is the challenge for writers. 35:59.537 --> 36:01.399 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I I'm on social media. 36:01.439 --> 36:05.621 [SPEAKER_01]: I talk to people and people just think it's it's going to be easier. 36:05.641 --> 36:11.325 [SPEAKER_01]: They look for shortcuts and they don't realize that every time you do it, it's it's hard again. 36:11.365 --> 36:18.250 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not like, oh, I figured and also because as you are doing, you make it more difficult on yourself. 36:18.790 --> 36:22.635 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you don't say, oh, look, I wrote these five behind novels. 36:22.655 --> 36:23.496 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know how to do that. 36:23.516 --> 36:25.458 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to write a different series. 36:25.558 --> 36:27.841 [SPEAKER_01]: No, you said, I'm going to write from different points of view. 36:27.901 --> 36:29.723 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to mess around the timelines. 36:30.284 --> 36:31.985 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to weave things in. 36:32.046 --> 36:33.307 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's going to be the novel. 36:33.607 --> 36:35.129 [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't make it easy on yourself. 36:35.169 --> 36:37.332 [SPEAKER_01]: Writers don't make it easy on themselves. 36:38.431 --> 36:41.413 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I think that's why, you know, you're right and gets better. 36:41.834 --> 36:44.416 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, don't get easier, but you get better, so. 36:45.396 --> 36:49.880 [SPEAKER_01]: And you've talked about Nano Rimeau, which doesn't exist anymore. 36:49.900 --> 37:03.450 [SPEAKER_01]: Sisters and crime, just gonna put it up, we do three sprints a year, a month long, lots of

writings every day, ways to measure whatever you're doing, and we do do one in November, which is a tough time of year for most people. 37:03.830 --> 37:09.883 [SPEAKER_01]: the tall days and it's, you know, just stuff going on and gear, it starts into the year, but 37:11.152 --> 37:18.615 [SPEAKER_01]: Just setting a goal for yourself on, for 30 days, I'm gonna really work on this thing. 37:18.635 --> 37:20.635 [SPEAKER_01]: And whatever your goals are, are great. 37:20.836 --> 37:25.217 [SPEAKER_01]: And Nana was always 50,000 words, but that's very hard for most people. 37:26.538 --> 37:35.281 [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, seeing I'm gonna spend 30 days thinking about my writing, give yourself that gift so that you can get it done. 37:35.341 --> 37:38.422 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't let writing be something you regret, not doing. 37:39.224 --> 37:39.825 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely. 37:40.485 --> 37:41.046 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 37:41.086 --> 37:47.531 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've never, I've never regretted the time I put in writing, even the failed novels, the failed literary short stories, all that stuff. 37:47.571 --> 37:58.680 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've never, because it's all practice, it's all, you know, it's like, it makes, it all, it all enters your subconscious and your consciousness and makes you better writers. 37:58.800 --> 38:00.901 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I don't, I think, 38:01.982 --> 38:05.885 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, part of writing is doing the work as it's on reward. 38:06.465 --> 38:16.792 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, publications the goal, but if you don't like writing and your focus on publication, I don't think you're going to be really happy or successful. 38:17.172 --> 38:21.715 [SPEAKER_00]: If you like the writing and you do a long enough, the publications come to come. 38:21.735 --> 38:23.797 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think as long as you, 38:25.973 --> 38:33.329 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're able to acknowledge where you need to get better and can take criticism and act on it. 38:33.349 --> 38:35.634 [SPEAKER_00]: I think you will get published. 38:36.297 --> 38:39.720 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and you, it's a roller coaster, you know? 38:39.840 --> 38:46.345 [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I used to teach arts administration to actors and to performers. 38:46.586 --> 38:53.631 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, if your goal is to be on Broadway as an actor, that's an interesting goal and could be achievable. 38:53.691 --> 38:58.796 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's a moment in a 50-year career, you know? 38:59.196 --> 39:01.017 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, okay, I did it then what? 39:01.057 --> 39:02.779 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's in writing the same way. 39:04.659 --> 39:05.259 [SPEAKER_01]: And then what? 39:05.299 --> 39:15.566 [SPEAKER_01]: You got to figure it back on the ride and, you know, deal with the next hurdle or you know, learn how to navigate that turn better or whatever it is. 39:15.766 --> 39:19.849 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the joy and the challenge of being

a creative person. 39:20.829 --> 39:21.229 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 39:21.610 --> 39:21.730 [SPEAKER_00]: I. 39:23.019 --> 39:23.740 [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that. 39:23.880 --> 39:30.507 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, for me, like when I finish this short story and start sending it out, then I start on a new one. 39:30.527 --> 39:33.270 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't wait to see what happens with that one. 39:34.131 --> 39:35.011 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's 39:36.487 --> 39:46.594 [SPEAKER_00]: because the way it can be a long time, and when novels that's even worse, I don't know how, you know, that's just such a tough path to navigate. 39:46.654 --> 39:58.223 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think if you're always working on something, then when something hits, you'll have a successor to it, and the works. 39:59.324 --> 40:02.126 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think you have to just, 40:03.162 --> 40:07.186 [SPEAKER_00]: keep doing the work and hopefully you know enjoy the process. 40:07.486 --> 40:19.318 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah well and as you've mentioned a couple of times you control the process the publishing part you need to show up but beyond that it's really it's so beast 40:20.175 --> 40:31.558 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that is out of your control and even because if it's a short story, you're going to you have to submit it and wait to hear so that you have no control over the way. 40:31.658 --> 40:36.200 [SPEAKER_00]: And once it's accepted, you have to go through edits and you have to deal with that. 40:36.220 --> 40:37.700 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have to wait till it's published. 40:38.060 --> 40:44.002 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of time involved in some, you know, it's necessary time because there's 40:47.523 --> 40:55.247 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the idea to me is like, okay, you're a historian and it sells in March, it's going to come out in November. 40:55.867 --> 41:00.089 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, don't wait till that comes out to start writing your next story, you know, because. 41:02.230 --> 41:06.752 [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, and if you like characters from that story, you can revisit them. 41:06.792 --> 41:09.173 [SPEAKER_01]: You can, from a different, like you're not. 41:10.013 --> 41:12.974 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not one and done with a character if you like exploring them. 41:13.495 --> 41:14.415 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 41:16.244 --> 41:16.564 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 41:16.985 --> 41:38.262 [SPEAKER_01]: So you mentioned community and as we're wrapping up, I, you know, most writers are, well, not most, but a lot of writers are to disagree introverts or, you know, getting meeting people is not, but it is really important to find that group of people who when you ask about bullet wound. 41:39.263 --> 41:53.417 [SPEAKER_01]: don't blink and look at you as scans there if they will give you advice and it is a select group of people who can sit around a table and talk about that, you know, and that's community. 41:53.698 --> 42:00.485 [SPEAKER_01]: It's for all of it, but finding the people who understand what you're doing is critical. 42:01.358 --> 42:15.212 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and don't be afraid to ask questions or, you know, I mean, because you can look up stuff online and that's great and you can go to the threads and that's great, but you know, if you talk to guy who's been a cop who's actually fired a gun. 42:16.977 --> 42:19.720 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's sort of, that's closer to the source. 42:19.760 --> 42:31.130 [SPEAKER_00]: That's not you doing it, but it's much closer to the source and reading a reddit thread, but you know, by somebody who was in law enforcement, and nothing against reddit or any of that. 42:31.170 --> 42:32.492 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think, 42:33.052 --> 42:51.519 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I have a story that just came out and blackhead weekly and with my female PI and I wanted her to have a hobby to start doing photography because you need that if you're PI anyway you need it, but I want to give her an interest in daytime photography on my photographer. 42:53.140 --> 42:54.901 [SPEAKER_00]: The only camera I have is in my phone. 42:55.221 --> 43:02.583 [SPEAKER_00]: By my friend who's a really good night time photography, she's, you know, does Milky Way photos and the desert, she's done urban night stuff. 43:03.363 --> 43:09.845 [SPEAKER_00]: So I talked to her and it's like people like being asked for their advice and their expertise. 43:10.305 --> 43:16.987 [SPEAKER_00]: And she just gave me a ton of information and it was great and I used it in the story. 43:17.047 --> 43:17.787 [SPEAKER_00]: So I felt like 43:19.185 --> 43:27.087 [SPEAKER_00]: It was, you know, more accurate than what it would have been, no matter, I could have done a a ton of research and it wouldn't have been as good, you know. 43:27.807 --> 43:47.252 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because you can follow up, you know, in both of those examples, you can say, and tell me why or how did that feel or other things that come to mind, it's a conversation and so talking, and you're right, people are so generous with their expertise, if you ask them, I mean, they'd be, you know, most people are willing to talk to you. 43:47.984 --> 43:58.891 [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things I said, you know, is like, I wanted to do some long distance photography, but one of the considerations I never had is I, like I mentioned a telephoto lens or something, she talked about too. 43:58.911 --> 44:03.294 [SPEAKER_00]: And she said, well, she'd probably use this one, because this one weighs like seven pounds, or whatever it was. 44:03.314 --> 44:05.416 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, yeah, I mean, I didn't know that. 44:06.136 --> 44:10.038 [SPEAKER_00]: Could you see people at sporting events or whatever with telephoto lenses? 44:10.098 --> 44:17.180 [SPEAKER_00]: But you never think about the logistics of handling something that heavy, which could make a difference. 44:17.280 --> 44:19.761 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, okay, that's really cool. 44:19.781 --> 44:21.542 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's great. 44:21.842 --> 44:22.322 [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. 44:24.212 --> 44:35.495 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this has been an interesting conversation, hopefully inspiring some folks to start thinking and writing in different forms and to challenge themselves. 44:35.935 --> 44:38.355 [SPEAKER_01]: But thank you so much for being on the podcast. 44:38.495 --> 44:39.935 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you so much for having me. 44:39.956 --> 44:43.936 [SPEAKER_00]: It was really, really nice to meet you and to talk with you and enjoy it. 44:50.753 --> 44:52.134 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being with us today. 44:52.814 --> 44:55.416 [SPEAKER_01]: Sisters in crime is about community. 44:56.037 --> 45:03.342 [SPEAKER_01]: We were founded to advocate for women crime writers and we continue that mission by fighting for equity and the crime writing community. 45:04.002 --> 45:12.288 [SPEAKER_01]: Sisters in crime is an international inclusive organization for all who write and love crime fiction, mystery, thrillers, and suspense. 45:12.808 --> 45:17.752 [SPEAKER_01]: Join us at sistersincrime.org and make sure you subscribe to this podcast. 45:23.344 --> 45:24.150 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you.