התמלול המלא של Unique Individuality

I think just as an afterthought, I think people are slightly afraid of the idea too. 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:57.439 And as as we go through this discussion, uh perhaps that will that will become uh that will become clear. 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:00.000 But as far as I'm concerned, this is a new way of seeing. 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.959 This is uh the my my book is ambitious in this respect. 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:11.839 I'm trying to I'm trying to create a new way of seeing that I think uh all your test users will find uh I hope refreshing and and reinforcing. 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:18.160 Well, Nigel, the thanks for that uh for that background information and again thanks for joining us on the podcast. 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:19.439 Um I'll say a couple of things. 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:23.199 First of all, I'm really interested in hearing more about this fear, right? 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:24.639 Why why people might be afraid of it. 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.279 I have some thoughts of my own, but I'm sure we'll dig into that later. 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:35.439 But I also want to just let our audience know, uh, you know, Nigel has had an impressive career as a researcher, scholar, and academic. 00:05:35.600 --> 00:06:03.199 He's been cited more than 18,000 times, and he's published research around uh our human biology and how that affects our individual differences, published quite a bit of research on transitions and jobs and careers, published research on absenteeism and how personality is related to absenteeism in the workplace, and even published work on family businesses, which is of course a a major topic, and we're seeing more and more uh people doing consulting around family businesses these days as well. 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:07.839 So uh a whole variety of research topics that that Nigel's an expert on. 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:12.639 So we're super thrilled to have you here today, and of course, we're thrilled to talk about your book, Unique You. 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:13.839 So thanks again for joining us. 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:15.600 Can I just add one to that? 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:34.079 Uh one one of the most interesting periods of of my my research career was I I did I spent a few years uh leading a team on uh studying behavioral finance in uh in investment banks, um, where we did some work on risk and personality that was uh that is uh proved to be very widely cited. 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:40.399 So um personality plays a plays a major part in the finance industry, I can tell you that. 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:42.399 Oh, I can imagine. 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:51.759 Well, Nigel, you know, as I mentioned in the intro, you've been intrigued by individual differences for much of your life, which led to you writing this new book. 00:06:51.839 --> 00:07:09.360 And for our listeners, this book uh as we're recording is not quite released, but by the time we publish, it will have been released, and we'll be sure to include a note in the show description where you can go uh check out the book, buy the book, uh, and all of that. 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:19.040 But Nigel, before we get to the meat of this episode, would you mind giving our audience your broad definition of unique individuality? 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.800 Well, I guess that is the meat of the uh of the issue, Ryan. 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:37.680 But we're gonna I uh get straight into it, I guess, because um I start the book out with what I say there are here are four inescapable truths about you, which I call the four laws of unique individuality, and perhaps they they capture the idea. 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:44.560 The first is that no one like you has ever existed on this planet before, nor ever will again. 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:46.800 So you are unique, you are one of. 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:59.519 You're born unique, your brain is configured uniquely at your birth along with your DNA, um uh, and uh so so we uh uniqueness is is uh is a fact of all our lives. 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:04.639 As it is for actually in any other species, it just matters in a very different way for humans, I think. 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:19.920 The second thing is um the second law is that you are a stranger to yourself, to use um uh to to to uh quote another psychology, but uh the idea that we don't really know who we are because so much of our processing is unconscious. 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:29.040 And indeed, uh one of the functions of consciousness is to help us um make decisions that can't be made automatically, as other species do. 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:38.960 Uh so uh the the the this the this hidden processing is really important and it involves biases and feelings and things that affect our judgment. 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:46.559 So um uh we could be blindsided by ourselves very easily, and and we are inherently unpredictable in in many ways. 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:51.360 Uh the third law is that we don't really know anybody else and they don't really know us. 00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:01.519 Um we try to get very close to each other and try to imagine what it's like to have somebody else's experience, but you you you only have the idea, you you never have the experience itself. 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:08.080 And um so these first three laws would seem to mean l put you in a very lonely place. 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:13.919 Um but that's not necessarily the case because the fourth law is that we have to connect. 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:15.360 It's the reason for our existence. 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.000 We wouldn't be here if our ancestors hadn't connected. 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:29.679 Um so so connection is important and valuable, and not only that, it's actually the meat of all social all the most valuable social processes. 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:43.600 Because as a because although biologically we're we're actually a a very tightly defined genome as a species, much more than chimpanzees and others, because we went

through an evolutionary bottleneck a long time ago. 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:53.360 But within, you know, but but that but we magnify that the diversity of individuality because we cooperate in so many different ways. 00:09:53.440 --> 00:10:05.279 And the so the this fourth law is that co- we have lots of ways of cooperating for love and for productivity and uh for fun and all kinds of things, different ways of combining with each other. 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:23.679 So individuality is the stuff of life, and it's it's also the driver of cultural change and the arts and a lot so much more in life, and it's uh it's astonishing to me that people have not really supposed but written about this or talked about it in the uh uh in the modern era. 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:26.399 Well, Nigel, this is really fascinating. 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.399 Uh that these these four laws, I really find them all really interesting. 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.360 I just wanted to dig in a little bit on that very first one. 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.399 Um, you mentioned no one like you has ever existed. 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:47.919 And I have to say that when I talk with folks, people ask me frequently about the difference between, say, Hogan's assessments and other, I won't name them, but other popular uh assessments out there. 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:52.480 You know, some assessments might tell you that there are only 16 different people, for example. 00:10:52.799 --> 00:11:04.240 Whereas actually, we did some math some years ago where we found that with Hogan's assessments, uh, there are more possible combinations of scores than there are atoms in the universe or something like that. 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.080 Which is outrageous, right? 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:18.399 But but to me, the point of that is that it really does emphasize the new unique you, but I'm gonna guess that you think even beyond just scores on assessments when you're talking about unique you. 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:21.279 So are you just talking about combinations of personality scores? 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:25.120 Are you talking about even even more that makes us up as individuals than that? 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:34.879 Well, we have to add into the mix there uh uh uh uh two words that what you won't find feature in many psych departments, and you might wonder why. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:36.639 And those words are free will. 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:42.879 Now, um we don't really uh arguable whether how how free our will is. 00:11:43.039 --> 00:12:10.960 Uh uh we're constrained by these biological processes themselves, and we uh uh we we we have the feeling that we are free, but indeed, this is an extension of this consciousness point that we it enables us to stop the action whenever we want, do what we want, to to to change, and so you know, people people I know there's a lot of literature about faking tests, but of course, that's a deliberate choice that somebody may choose to make, is I'm gonna fake this fake this test, right? 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:22.320 So, I mean, even the decision to do that is is a is an interesting fact about themselves and about the person's ability to assert control over their own experience. 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:35.200 Um and indeed, you know, uh maybe later in our discussion, but certainly when we when you look in within families, uh any attempt you have to to shape your child's identity is uh is hopeless. 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:36.960 They're gonna reveal themselves to you. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:13:02.399 And the other thing is, of course, with I mean, I'm a huge fan of of uh of of psychometrics, uh, but they they are all frozen points in time, and for me, the only approach that really works is a biographical approach in conjunction with uh with those data that um uh that we can see uh what the significance of a profile is in the context of a unique life. 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:06.879 And of course, so the uniqueness spread spreads well beyond that. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:17.679 And and you know, just to underline the point, you only have to think of yourself in a different way to fundamentally change lots of aspects in your behavior. 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:25.600 For example, thinking of yourself as an attractive person or an unattractive person will set you on a completely different set of experiences. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:34.720 Um and these are uh of course, these things can be modified, and they can be modified through therapy or self-talk or whatever, you know. 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:43.440 So I individuality uh seems to me to be washing up on the shores of our existence in ever from every direction. 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:47.039 Well, Nigel, this is already so cool. 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.559 I'm I'm I'm I'm fascinated already by what we're getting into. 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:56.960 So uh for my next question, let's let's talk a little bit more about you know why individuality matters. 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:58.399 You know, can you can you tell us? 00:13:58.960 --> 00:13:59.200 Yes. 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:13.600 Well, in in the book I quote the uh the Victorian um Surgeon General of America, who's actually a Canadian, some Sir William William Osler, who said, What's the effect of don't ask what disease the patient has, ask what patient the disease has. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:28.720 Well, this is a very interesting idea, you know, is to say, and of course, we all know this, you know, if uh you you watch people, for example, taking alcohol as an example I use in the book, people's reactions to alcohol are purely them their own. 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:34.559 I mean, some people fall asleep, some people get excitable, some people, you know, uh behave badly. 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:46.480 Uh so uh uh anything you anything you ingest, and and by ingest I mean all lived experience, uh is qualified by you. 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:52.480 It's qualified by by who you are, by the template that's

absorbing it. 00:14:52.639 --> 00:15:03.919 Uh like any like any any material, you know, the the there's a sort of an accretive process, it has to to some extent f fit in with what's already there or transform what's already there. 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:10.799 And it of course experience can do both, but how it does that is entirely individual. 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:20.240 Uh so uh before we uh you know, as we say, you know, psychology is largely interested in saying most people do this. 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:36.240 But if you think about training courses, in fact, I got a very nice message from John Cotter the other day who said that my the th my thinking on this upends a whole lot of leadership development uh presumption, which is the with which is the average manager. 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:38.240 But there is no average manager. 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:41.120 Um you have to deal with the raw material in front of you. 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:46.960 You have you have to understand what you're doing to people, uh uh what it means in the context of their lives. 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:59.039 And indeed, my book is very much centered around my teaching of a course of what should I call biography for um mid-career midlife uh Sloan fellow students. 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:04.879 And I tell lots of their stories in the book, uh, but but all of those stories illustrate this this point. 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:21.759 And uh of course, you one of the reasons for the fear of of the of in of the idea of individuality is people want to believe, a, they they can hide in a group and they can merge their identity and then become, as it were, invisible or protected. 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:33.919 Um and the other is uh they don't really want the responsibility of having to make themselves up, or having to of having to take that responsibility of being a unique individual and finding out who you are and living your life. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:46.320 Um and all this is being made infinitely worse by social media, where young people, especially, I think, are in a great states of confusion about about identity, needlessly, in my view. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:55.759 Uh they should stand on their own two feet and say, This is who I am, uh, and let me find way ways of being the way I I want to be authentically in the world. 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.279 And the world doesn't often make that very easy for people. 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:04.319 Nigel, yeah, a couple of interesting points there. 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:16.160 Well, but one question that I have sort of a follow-up centers around this idea of unique individuality, and is that really accessible, right? 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:21.039 Can can we actually uh assess the unique individual? 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:29.119 Certainly from Hogan's point of view, we can assess uh these sort of core personality dimensions and talk about how you vary on those kinds of things. 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:34.480 But you know, one of

the points you sort of made there, which struck me, is that there's sort of no average person. 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.480 And I think about medication, right? 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.640 Yeah, medication dosage is targeted for the average person. 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:46.400 This is the right, but there is no average person, so maybe for one person they need a little more, a little less. 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:48.400 And how would you figure that out? 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:55.039 And and I guess that's what I'm really getting down to is can we actually measure fully the individual? 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.200 Or I I mean, I know there's approaches. 00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:03.920 I don't know how familiar you are with like Dan McAdams and his sort of personal narrative, these life story kind of narrative kind of approaches. 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:06.960 In a quantitative way, but yeah, go ahead. 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:15.599 No, I love Dan McAdams' work, and I think he's I think he's I think he's on uh he's he's really uh on the money with with with his app his approach. 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:28.000 Um but your your medical example, in fact, I in the in the book I talk about you know, you take out the slip of paper with with a prescription medicine and it lists all these different things that could happen to you and the probabilities of them and so on. 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.279 And and you will at the end of it you realize nobody has a clue. 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.599 I mean, they don't know what symptoms you're gonna get. 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:37.680 You know, they give you the drug, and if you feel these things, stop stop taking the drugs. 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:45.119 Yeah, okay, yeah, so um so uh the approach is for me, the the approach is is biographical. 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:50.480 Uh I I think it goes beyond uh beyond narratives, but narratives play a very strong part in it. 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:57.359 And and so so my methodology for doing this is is what I call my 4D framework. 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:06.720 Uh and I think it encompasses uh um uh the the the work, the uh the really valuable work you can do through uh psychometrics uh testing. 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:15.599 Uh so uh the the the four D's are destiny, drama, deliberation, and development. 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:26.640 And using these four, you can tell the story of a of a human life and and uh how it's unfolded the way it has, and what kind of person this is. 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:36.319 Uh let's put this in the context, let's say, of a job interview, or you're interviewing somebody to be a prospective partner, could be even be a romantic partner. 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.960 What are the four things you'd really like to know most about them? 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:39.839 Well, here they are. 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:41.359 Number one, destiny. 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.079 What is it about this person that can't be fixed? 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.559 What is it about this person that is a given? 00:19:46.720 --> 00:20:02.799 And that would be uh their DNA and to some extent uh their personality, or certainly the uh the the underlying temperament, temperamental basis for personal adult personality, because as we know, uh childhood temperament predicts adult personality. 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:10.400 Um but of course you you know it unfolds in its own way uh for for that person. 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:18.559 So the uh so the uh and the other elements of destiny causes the place of birth and time of birth and the childhood milieu and so on. 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.319 So some people then spend the rest of their life trying to run away from their destiny. 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.079 But these are stuff that you carry with you. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:30.319 So you always want to know when the person is standing in front of you, so well, what's the what is this person carrying that I need to know about? 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:35.440 Uh and what effect is that gonna have in in the workplace or wherever you uh you may happen to be. 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:43.359 So that's so so that's where that's where I think the testing regime really uh uh uh has a huge amount to to contribute. 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:47.359 And I use I use uh test myself in in all of my work. 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.880 Um uh the second is the drama. 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:54.000 Now, life is continually unpredictable. 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:58.880 We like to pretend it's unpredicta i i it's it is predictable, but it is it it's not. 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:05.759 I mean, we live lives of punctuated equilibrium, so we have we have periods of stability and then drama upsets the apricot. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:17.200 But it even in the micro moments of every day, uh you you know, I mean, I'm I play tennis and uh you never know where the ball's gonna go and where and what the next thing is gonna be. 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:19.440 I mean, and it's it's the stuff of life. 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:22.079 We love that unpredictably, it makes life fun. 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.440 It also makes life dangerous and difficult for for us at times. 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:36.160 And of course, then big events happen, the big dramas that happen, somebody close to you dies, or you get fired, or you get a job, or you get something good happens to you win the win the lottery, you know. 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:41.359 Uh the these dramas then are things that you that you you adapt to. 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:46.720 And of course, that process of uh adaptation is one of often chasing the game. 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:48.640 But what are you chasing the game with? 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:59.759 What's the and it's the the this is where the destiny comes in is your personality, one of the reasons why personality tests are predictive, is because they're quite good at figuring out what kinds of reaction. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.000 You may have as an

individual to some of these dramas that may happen. 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:09.359 Now, that would leave us still something buffeted between these two forces. 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:18.240 But the third one, deliberation, is the free will point, is the point at which you can stop and say, wait a minute, I don't want this life. 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:30.079 I mean, a lot of my students, you know, they're mid-life, mid-career people, very successful lawyers and accountants, and people who they've they reached the the top of their profession. 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:40.559 And they've they've made some choice so to say, wait a minute, uh, I'm going to get off this bus and see where else I might go. 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:51.039 Um and they come into my into my class, uh, and that's that's the beginning of the conversation that we're having, is you know, is kind of why are you here and what are you looking to do. 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.920 And of course, what they're trying to do, the most important thing they're trying to do is to change the narrative. 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:02.079 And the deliberation is often around, as Dan McAdams would would uh would say, is around the narrative. 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.079 Uh the what's the story you're telling about yourself and your own future? 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.960 Uh, because that that will be quite determining. 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:15.200 And then, of course, there's the fourth point, is the development point, which is you you can't stop learning stuff. 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.359 You can't, or uh I mean, some of the learning is is bad learning. 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:24.160 People learn, for example, to be very mistrustful if they're if they've had bad experiences. 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:31.839 I spend a lot of time in my one-to-one's with uh with with people uh discussing trust issues and how to repair them. 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.880 Uh uh, because that seems to be be very critical. 00:23:35.039 --> 00:24:01.440 But but you you know, you you could you do eventually acquire wisdom and so on, and uh the stories that my uh that that I I get told in in the classroom amaze me in in in in the the the ways in which people have actually uh uh recovered their lives um after after things that you think uh would would would would would destroy less somebody uh uh uh uh would would could be could be destructive to a person. 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:02.640 But people don't actually. 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:04.720 People are very resilient and very adaptable. 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:11.279 So I've for me individuality is uh a story of creation and a story of adaptation uh mostly. 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:29.680 Well, Nigel, so I I was lucky enough to receive an advanced copy of of your book, and um of course I I didn't have enough time from whenever I received it to actually read the entire thing before we started this, but I did get through quite a bit of it. 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:39.279 And of course,

there's a lot of thought-provoking uh uh you know material in that book that people can can you know seek for themselves. 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:48.559 But there were two sentences in your book that particularly piqued my interest, and I quote You are an embodied mind. 00:24:48.720 --> 00:25:00.079 You could flip this over and say you are an in-minded body, a beast being that is stuck with a mind that is capricious and apt to get you into needless trouble. 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:04.559 That I I love that, but can you expand on that and what you mean by it? 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:05.279 Okay. 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:16.960 Um so so my uh analysis of of of of individuality says, okay, well, the so we we have I I take the the the concept of beast being. 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:34.079 Actually, the beast uh I was I uh uh Anil Seth, the neuroscientist, I read uh something uh he wrote a book which uh called Being You, which he talks about us as beast machines, uh which is what Descartes, the philosopher Descartes, the French philosopher Descartes said. 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:41.359 Uh Descartes' famous for uh dualism, he because Descartes said, Oh, we are beast machines, but then we have this divine spirit. 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:51.440 Well, uh now we can we can put the divine spirit into the into what Freud called the psyche, and put the psyche into the beast being, and that's what we carry around with us. 00:25:51.759 --> 00:26:02.000 We are this animal with our own uh carapace of of of flesh and blood and our own mental processing, uh a lot of which is mysterious to us. 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:04.960 And that is that is your your your beast being. 00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:14.400 Uh and it it will go its own way, it will, it has its primitive its uh appetites and it it has its own its own ways. 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:20.160 And and John Haight also made a similar point in his writing. 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:27.039 Uh now uh what we have in addition to that is something to help us uh uh to a control system. 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:38.559 So we have we have the conscious ego, uh which is the which Freud called a slave, but actually it's more than a slave because it it has its own wants and needs, and we can say more about that later. 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:46.799 Um uh and uh uh and the ego has to has to has to listen to to these the appetites of the beast and to some extent to feed them. 00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:51.359 But also uh it entertains the concept of self. 00:26:51.519 --> 00:27:06.960 And here uh following William James, uh who just who said, you know, the ego is the I, uh, you know, the me, and the uh and the self is the me, is, is the you know, the distinguishing the I and the me. 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:13.680 Uh and of course the self, as Dan McAdams says, is the bit that carries the narratives, and those narratives are very important. 00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:27.759 Now we need to balance uh the what what these the different forces that uh are coming from these, and if we don't, if we don't take if we if we're not aware of the ways in which we can fool ourselves, we'll end up in big trouble. 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:36.079 I mean, I've seen traders, for example, um getting swept away, financial traders, getting swept away with beliefs that they could control markets. 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:55.119 Um because they because of the positive feedback loops between what they do and what they see on their screens, and then they suddenly think they're masters of the universe until the universe uh uh comes and blindsides them and gives them a kick up the butt, you know, so uh w which can happen. 00:27:55.279 --> 00:28:00.880 Um so uh the the our our minds are not under our control. 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:07.200 We we we are we are we we're you know, like what we're doing now is is an interesting example. 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:08.559 And none of this is written down. 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:13.440 We're all making this up as we go along, but we're doing it, we're doing it in a kind of controlled way. 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:21.039 But at the same time, we're capable of being a little bit surprised by what we say and by what we hear, and then how how we act, react. 00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:23.119 That's that's the joy of life. 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:32.880 But yeah, but it it's it it that that it's also a process that needs to be that that needs to be managed, and that is a there's a kind of a struggle there, I think, for for people. 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:44.960 Um I mean within that I I mean I think um there are there are way all these different moving parts need to be taken care of. 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:52.319 Um uh the poor ego, for example, uh that has to do all of all that is processing all this data. 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:57.680 I mean, your ego is getting uh data from your body, telling you how you'll feel. 00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:22.000 You've maybe got a slight headache, you're feeling a bit tired, you know, uh, and your your and from yourself, your your idea about about where you are in the world and what's what's going on, um, and what you're trying to do and what you're trying to achieve, and has to, and then the ego has to get then get to work and make sure you you uh you do the right things to get the things you need and and want to survive and prosper. 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:39.039 Now, as we as we know uh from again from personality testing and from uh and from neurological research, uh that this this is kind of the dopamine uh circuit uh business, you know, where we are getting uh we we spend our lives striving for things. 00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:40.480 And we're programmed to do that. 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.640 That's part of our evolutionary heritage. 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:45.200 But some people do it far too much. 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:55.119 Some people spend their whole lives, you know, uh chasing, um chasing success, chasing stimuli, chasing uh friendship, chasing this and

that. 00:29:55.279 --> 00:30:03.359 Um and I call that Telic after the the Greek, you know, for for for uh going towards uh uh um something. 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.279 And we need to step out of that, and of course, we we do. 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:23.519 We have the paratelic states, which is um uh often the di in neurological terms is called the default mode network, which is when the brain is at re apparently at rest, when you're relaxing, enjoying life, and so on, of course, and it's a completely different set of circuitries. 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:33.200 And that that is you need that, but of course, too much of that's a bad thing, too, because people get depressed sitting around thinking about themselves and they need to get out and do something. 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:42.400 So, you know, those are the kinds of things that we need to do in this, you know, um embody we we you know the the mind only exists for the sake of the body. 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:54.880 That that's the put the when I say uh an and in uh uh an in-minded body, what I'm saying is the body has got this mind for to to look after itself. 00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.359 Let's g uh um and we tend to we tend to often think about it the other way around. 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:10.799 We reverse put the guart before the horse almost and say, oh, you know, the body is just a is just a useless piece of flesh that we have to drag around uh whilst we uh and it gets in the way of you enjoying life. 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:14.799 I'm afraid it's uh I'm afraid that is the wrong way around. 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:26.400 Yeah, Nigel, it it occurs to me in this discussion, one of the topics that comes up to us a lot concerns this notion of the true self or the sort of authentic self. 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:36.160 And it seems like, based on your discussion, that you have this point of view that um you know maybe that there's some true self that exists but it's sort of unknowable. 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:55.519 A lot of the time that we spend in our lives interacting with other people to your to your fourth pointer or the sort of connection that we're having to other people is spent managing our impression and not really being some true self, whatever that might be, or that's if that's an id or or whatever that that uh sort of true self might be. 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:56.559 Would you agree with that? 00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:59.519 Or do you what's your take on this notion of a true self? 00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:08.079 Well, uh I I I think it's very dangerous actually to talk to assume there is a single true self that is unvarying. 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:18.000 I mean, I think uh you you certainly have you have a mental architecture and you have mental processing, uh uh and it it is it's fluid. 00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:22.400 Uh it's not it doesn't stand still, but it does operate within parameters. 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:26.960 You can't suddenly flip and become something completely different, and you don't flip and become seafood. 00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:32.720 So you get to know yourself imperfectly, and you get to know your foibles and flaws imperfectly. 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:36.480 Um, and uh I'm very fond of the word Zemblanity. 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:47.440 Zemblanity is invented by an uh uh a novelist, um William Boyd, uh and he used the word to be the opposite of serendipity. 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.400 Serendipity is good stuff that happens to you by accident. 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:55.519 Uh Zemblanity is bad stuff that happens to you because you made it happen. 00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.799 Okay, because this is you being you again. 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:03.279 I think, you know, oh my when I've lost my keys or I've lost my something, it's me again. 00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:04.880 I know, you know, this is what I do. 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:13.440 Uh this is one of my zemblarities, is to is to is to is to let my mind wander and not and get and lose the losing things. 00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:17.039 Um and you we we learn to we learn to live with them. 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:27.119 And and being authentic to some extent is generally construed as meaning you can tell people about that that you uh that you have these these foibles. 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:38.079 But I in the in the book I I talk about my experience is going to uh uh to see to talk to children and teachers in a in a school for autistic kids. 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.359 Um and neurodivergence is is very interesting. 00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:52.400 We're all a bit neurodivergent, I certainly know I am, um you know, uh but in the sense that um uh it's it's much easier for some people to be authentic than others. 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:58.720 I mean, some people can give a nice straightforward account of themselves and be broadly trusted to do so. 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:11.519 But for other people, and we all know the profiles, anybody listening who looks at personality profiles will know there are people who are more consistent within s within the dimensions than others. 00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:17.679 And they're and they're they're people who are fairly easy to read for themselves and for other people. 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:23.920 But there are other people who within any given dimension, they've got peak scores going in opposite directions and so on. 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:30.880 And these are these are apparent contradictions that are reconciled within the compass of the personality. 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:32.639 That's how personality operates. 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:37.760 Personality is actually, as Jung said, is the integration of these opposites. 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:45.599 But these but these but unlike Jung, I'm saying these are very specific to you. 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:54.480 Uh and so what authenticity means to you is not the same as it means to the person standing next to you, and don't presume it is. 00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:59.360 It's

much, much easier for some people to tell their stories than for others. 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.880 Well, Nigel, you just taught me a new word. 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:09.119 Um, I'm gonna use Zimblanity every time my wife loses her keys. 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.599 And that will probably happen later today. 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.880 Um But I digress. 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:21.519 So uh in one chapter of your book, you talk about uh the UI2 of relationships. 00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:23.280 Or I don't know if that's UI squared. 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:26.159 Yeah, okay, there you go. 00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:31.519 Uh, and how human beings are biologically wired to connect with each other. 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:35.840 Uh can can you explain a little bit more why that's the case? 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.159 I think this is the fourth law you mentioned earlier. 00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:39.920 It is, it is. 00:35:40.159 --> 00:36:01.920 Uh well, um uh as uh uh Joe Henry uh uh pointed out in his wonderful book, The Secret of Our Success, um human culture has been some such a miraculous story of development because of our status as animals who learn from each other. 00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:15.599 Um you just watch a baby in a room uh w with uh you know, you put a chimpanzee in a baby in the same room with uh chimpanzees or humans or whatever, uh, the chimpanzee will do its own thing. 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:34.559 But the baby will always, if somebody knew what walks into the room, the baby will immediately look at the person, study the person, will always you look at the look what what what young children are doing, they're continually looking at other other members of their own species and trying to figure out what's going on. 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:40.559 Uh and this this is the uh he calls us self-domesticating animals, which I think is rather nice. 00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:59.119 Um, but this uh so so this this connection with others, I mean it also comes up in economics in Ricardo and Adam Smith, you know, the that the different we find people who have complementary assets to our own so we can combine and do something completely new. 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:08.880 So UI squared means that your love and my love are completely different things, or your partnership and my partnership are different things. 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:15.119 They they are uh and they stand on their own four feet um in their in their own way. 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:27.920 Um so uh and of course, friendships and relationships, I mean, uh we could talk about families separately because I've done a lot of work with families and family business, as as you mentioned. 00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:41.920 But um uh of course, you know, in um what friendship does, one one of the most I think friendship's very interesting as a phenomenon, uh because friends enlarge your world. 00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:53.360 I use the concept of umwelt, which I borrowed from uh uh uh uh ecology where they use

it to talk about how different species live in their own worlds to some extent, constructive worlds. 00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:01.039 Well, each of us had lives our own constructed worlds as well, so I could talk about our umwelt, our own world in from the German. 00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:07.360 Um, and um when you when you form a friendship, your world expands, enlarges. 00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:16.880 And of course, the breakup of friendships, the breakup of relationships is is so painful because a part of your world has been taken away from you. 00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:29.599 Um but there's also an animal level, there's the beast level, and again in the book I talk about beast-to-beast connections, and I think none is more powerful for a lot of people than the relationship with a dog. 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:36.800 I mean, dog the dog-human relationship is one of the most interesting, long-standing relationships we have with any other species. 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:43.280 18,000 years, I believe, we've been uh domesticating dogs or longer, probably. 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.440 Um, but uh uh you feel that. 00:38:47.519 --> 00:39:08.000 Oh, and I and I I talk in the book about how when my dog died, and I had this very strange feeling about something had been taken away from me, and I couldn't figure out what it was because it wasn't like a person dying where I could say, Oh, I'd lost this this this part of my umwelt, you know, but I had lost something and this this bond, this connection. 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:10.480 So I I and I call this resonance. 00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:12.880 I think we resonate, we resonate with each other. 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:17.840 You know, uh the concept of resonance from physics and even music is is an interesting one. 00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:20.880 Every material has its own pitch of resonance. 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:31.519 Um you have you know, there are you have your own unique resonances, people and places, and things that were that that you respond to actively. 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:35.360 Um and inspire and and it could be negatively as well. 00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:40.159 You can have you can realize when something really isn't isn't your isn't your flavour. 00:39:40.480 --> 00:40:07.599 So I think uh of course the other thing is uh as again as uh sociologists pointed out uh a hundred years ago, nearly cooley and people like this, we also learn about ourselves in relationships, but it's part of the exploration of the of the parts of ourselves that we don't know, or the unknowable, the unconscious, uh are discovered through relationships when we see how other people react to us and when they tell us about what what they think we're doing. 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:13.760 I mean, that that's that's s so hugely important, I think, in human affairs. 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.119 Nigel, I'm kind of curious on this. 00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:25.119 You know, I mean, I think you and I are totally aligned here in thinking about,

you know, the huge portion of our lives is spent connecting with other people. 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.880 Social interaction is where the interaction is, to quote Bob Hogan. 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:33.840 But uh I I wonder to what extent people can live. 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:45.760 I mean, your book is titled Unique You, so and we're talking about connections and these sorts of relationships that people have, but what to what extent can people sort of live uh independent, solitary, disconnected lives? 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.440 And to what extent is that psychologically healthy or unhealthy? 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.119 And what are the sort of ramifications of, say, uh, a modern world? 00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:59.440 You touched on this a little bit earlier, where maybe people feeling are feeling less connected than than before. 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.400 Well, I do yes, uh there's a you made a couple of points there. 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:25.039 Uh um in the previous book, I I quoted Admiral Stockdale, who spent seven years in solitary confinement under the Viet Cong, um and survived by keep by the uh by by thinking about the uh the the stoic philosophers, the Roman uh Seneca and people like that, which he he'd read, and keeping himself separate. 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:32.639 So to some extent, you're never alone, in a sense, you because you've always got the world in your head and you've got people in your head, you've got relationships. 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:35.840 I mean, people have relationships with books and TV. 00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:49.920 I mean, people imagine, I think people like soap operas because to some extent they are a kind of a they give people the simulation of relationships that are that that are not theirs, but they could feel they're part of. 00:41:50.400 --> 00:42:00.800 Um so uh and and but again, as we know, it's part of the law of you are of unique individuality, is that we're all vastly different in this. 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:06.079 Some people uh can't exist without uh without being online and communicating with other people. 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:11.679 Other people, uh nothing better than to be left on their own projects. 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:18.400 Um it's it's I think I think being an only child, for example, may may influence something like that. 00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:32.320 But it's also it it's it's also part of uh is one of the the base the basic uh elements of of personality uh uh uh and and temperament is is is people's desire to to be with others. 00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:54.079 But I think, as you say, uh uh a lot of these interactions are very fleeting and very insubstantial, and now we've got these sort of catfishing issues and people out there who who aren't what they seem to be, and people are desperate to connect, and it's the easier it is to connect, the more risky it is, and the more fallible the connections are. 00:42:54.320 --> 00:43:02.880 Um and I always say no matter how many virtual meetings you have, you m get get together personally and get to know each other. 00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:12.239 Uh, I mean I like using Zoom and Teams and so on, it works quite well for me, but only but it works when you when you've already met them much better than if you haven't met them in my ex in my experience. 00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:34.480 Um I sort of a little reflection on groups though here, because I think that one of the things that happens in in in and is part of it's this is psychology 101, is that you put somebody in a group and there is immediately a a norming tendency of people wanting to conform and wanting to belong and wanting to fit in. 00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:45.760 Of course, again, UI rules, some people don't want to fit in, but most people, generally speaking, are prepared to submerge their individuality uh uh for the sake of the group. 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:52.079 And indeed, that's one of the stories part of the human success story is people being able to do being able to do that. 00:43:52.320 --> 00:44:07.360 Um, but that's not always, as we know, that's not always good for the outcomes because we know that oh uh uh Overnormed groups make bad decisions and sometimes highly risky decisions and sometimes disastrously conservative ones. 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:12.880 My love for family business is partly because they kind of aren't like that. 00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:20.880 They go, you know, they've they've learned to disrespect each other enough to speak the truth to each other and to assert themselves and so on. 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:26.639 And uh, you know, my approach to family is business has always been the unique family. 00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:46.159 You've got unique people who are uh tethered together into in this enterprise, and then uh, you know, you could say it's it's a it's a there's a lottery, a genetic lottery, as to whether any given family is capable of running a business and not and not tearing the business apart or not tearing the family apart. 00:44:48.000 --> 00:45:05.039 You know, Nigel, you know, one thing I noticed in the book while I was I was reading through it, you know, is that these people seem to have an internal conflict between their pre-wired unique individuality and the cultural influences imprinted on them by external forces. 00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:06.800 How does that battle play out? 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.800 And is one stronger than the other? 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:23.519 Yes, but again, you see, you have to take you have to take a uniqueness uh perspective uh uh to to to to get at that point because uh people's relationship with we're all culture carriers. 00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:30.719 From the moment of our birth, uh uh uh culture is is all around us. 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:34.719 Um and you take it and it's very much taken for granted. 00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:49.440 Um and uh we we you know there's a there's an old joke, uh an Australian joke, I think, about two young

fish swimming through the water and they meet an old fish, and the old fish says says to the young fish, uh, hey boys, how's the water? 00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:56.320 And they they say okay, and then one of the young fish, one of these past says, What's water? 00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:59.920 You know, because you don't realize you're swimming in it. 00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:05.840 Um we are so uh uh ingested with with culture that that we take it for granted. 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:15.199 Um but the relationship with culture is is high as you grow, then you then you you may start to rebel and say, wait a minute, I I don't really take this for granted. 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.039 Why did why does it say I have to do this? 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:18.960 And why why do these norms exist? 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:20.559 And that starts in the family. 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:27.920 Of course, teenage rebellion is all is is about is uh exactly about this this this uh cultural conflict. 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.920 For some people, culture is a refuge. 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:35.840 Uh and uh uh others it's a toolkit, it's really helpful. 00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.280 It may be a springboard to take you somewhere else. 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:45.519 Yet for some people it's a prison or uh you're being brainwashed, um, or even an illusion. 00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:51.360 And the only way you know is is when you step outside the culture the first time you go abroad, maybe. 00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:58.159 Um or you meet somebody from another culture who then sh shakes your presumptions, or you read something. 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:08.159 So uh uh I'm not sure it is a battle, because uh, in a sense, it's it's if it is a battle, it's a battle within within the self. 00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:10.000 It's not a battle with the culture. 00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:25.360 This is a battle within the self about how much am I going to surrender to what I s to what I've been taught or what uh and what I believe or what I've been taught to believe, uh and how and and how I feel about about th about what is happening to me. 00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:36.400 I think it's a very dynamic and interesting relationship, and I'm I've I didn't spend a lot of time in previous years uh my work on transitions studying uh expats and and how they adapt. 00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:40.800 And of course, what you see is people adapt in very different ways. 00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:49.199 Some people find it very take it like a like a fish to water, and they they they they jump in and they they feel very at home in these new cultures. 00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:52.320 For other people, it's much, much more more difficult. 00:47:52.639 --> 00:48:00.079 And then of course the big shock is when you go home again, that's the biggest shock often, because you see your own culture through new eyes now. 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:09.519 Your umwelt has been has been transformed by by your experience of being in another culture,

and then you go back and you say, I can't, I can't accept that anymore. 00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:13.840 The things that I used to accept in my home country, I can't I can't take them anymore. 00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:23.599 Or you may have the opposite, you may say, Oh, I love my culture, I love you know coming back to America after being in Europe and you know the all the you see all the good things. 00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:32.079 Um so again, I'm afraid, you know, you have to you have to say that the UI principle uh is is very important. 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:39.679 Um and that you know, because some people are uh socialized much more intensely than others. 00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:43.440 Some people are brought up in very strict households, but it doesn't last. 00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:44.880 It often doesn't last. 00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:49.039 Very few people are are are very uh are the disciples of their parents. 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:52.559 That doesn't seem to happen very much in my experience. 00:48:54.400 --> 00:49:07.199 Well well, Nigel, I think again this points to this sort of uh you know tension that comes up quite a bit, which is this notion of you know, when doing a personality assessment, there's this concern. 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.280 You you brought up the topic of faking earlier, there's this concern that somebody might be faking. 00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:31.360 And I and I think one of the things that you're you've observed here is that despite our sort of pre-wiring, whatever pre-wire we might be genetically disposed with, from the moment we're born, there are cultural influences impacting us, shaping our behavior, shaping the way that we think, uh, shaping the way we approach the world. 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.760 And these external forces are just as much a part of us. 00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:45.679 Uh now one could argue that you know you're you're faking, you're not being your true self, you're not being uh you know who you were pre-wired to be. 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:52.320 Um and it but but I I think for me, uh my my perspective is that that's happening to all of us all the time. 00:49:52.480 --> 00:50:12.239 And so, you know, who we are, the sort of reputation that we make, I I I don't know how that ties in with your concept here of unique you, um is is the combination of not just your pre-wiring, but also uh the the the choices that you've made, the the sort of uh impact that you've tried to have through those social connections. 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:25.360 I I I don't know uh again how how you feel about that that sort of uh that that that that topic of uh you know uh pre-wire, you know, the sort of the combination of pre-wiring versus the cultural connections. 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:26.800 You've made a very good point. 00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:31.519 And uh I of course the the the pre-wiring is just a starter pack, right? 00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:44.320 It's it's just it's just a starter pack because uh because immediately the the culture starts to work and you and you absorb the culture, you assimilate the uh the culture um in your own way. 00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:55.599 I mean, as uh Piaget distinguished between assimilation and accommodation, and he said accommodation is when you what you assimilate changes who you are, in a sense, changes your perspective. 00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:01.440 And that's and and much of that early learning is about accommodation, how the culture changes you. 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:06.400 But of course, you are you are as you ingest it, you are changing it yourself. 00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:15.280 It's like the pill you take or the alcohol we were discussing earlier, you know, you you you absorb culture, you ingest culture, and you make it your own. 00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:28.880 Um so uh uh you come back to the point that that the c it is a conversation with the most important conversations you ever have are conversations with yourself. 00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:50.239 So the way we resolve these things is by saying, you know, okay, so maybe that's maybe I don't maybe maybe what I believed there wasn't quite true, and maybe I should I should go in a new direction now, or I should try something different, or maybe I should go and see what it's like on the other side of the hill, you know? 00:51:50.559 --> 00:52:03.199 Um so I think this this is this is what makes life such such an adventure, is that is that in a sense it is a toolkit, we've got it with us, uh, and um we shouldn't let it imprison us. 00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:18.880 Uh uh because I think part of the the discovery of your uh I'd I prefer rather than saying, you know, returning to, as it were, to the to sort to some base condition that you were born with, I'd rather go in the direction of Maslow and talk about self-actualization. 00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:43.039 Although Maslow uh got slightly confused about self-actualization, and he and he didn't really, I think, fully uh say enough about how uh different that process is for everybody, and uh uh to to uh to find to to to find the way your own potential, the things that are right for you, is a lifelong process, and you do you're doing it all the time. 00:52:43.360 --> 00:53:06.320 Um so I I and culture play plays uh an important part of that because it's a it it provides a a set of mirrors and a set of benchmarks and things that you can that you can say that you can say this this fits me or it doesn't fit me, this suits me, or this doesn't suit me. 00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:14.960 Um and for some people that it's it's a really tough, it's a really, really tough process. 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:30.239 Um but in my um certainly in my classroom, the the executives and and uh who I have uh who I've worked with, the leaders I've worked with, you know, transitions are so important in this process, and you can't stop transitions. 00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:49.039 Transitions are gonna happen to you, transitions in your biology,

transitions in your relationships, transitions in your work, and each transition uh uh has the potential to be transformational by by taking your life in a new direction. 00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:55.920 You know, Nigel at Hogan we talk a lot about the dark side of personality. 00:53:56.480 --> 00:54:02.719 So when I saw one of the chapters is titled uh the UI Dark Side, Dealing with Our Demons. 00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:08.960 I I I had to dive into this, uh it's kind of a three-part question here. 00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:12.159 So, one, where does our dark side come from? 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:16.079 How does it differ from person to person, and how can we suppress it? 00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:17.119 Yep. 00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:20.960 Uh well, I I I don't advise you suppress it. 00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:36.320 I'm with Jung on this one, who uh Jung said uh we have to we have to face the the the dark side and um and uh uh and try to integrate it into our lives because otherwise we'll be blindsided about it, you know. 00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:38.960 So uh you have to let the light in, I think. 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:42.480 Um that is that is much more challenging for some people than others. 00:54:42.559 --> 00:55:00.079 And again, uh we have the the UI principle, uh the uniqueness perspective uh comes in here that everybody has a dark side, but the dark side for each person is a different shade of dark and and uh also uh diff uh different sizes. 00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:04.239 For some people, they have much more difficult demons than others. 00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:15.440 Um and we should we should never presume uh that that that people are are what what they what they seem on the on the surface. 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:20.079 Um I mean they come, you say where does it come from? 00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:46.159 Well, part of it comes from your beast inheritance, and if you think about the way the brain functions, uh we we have some very primitive uh uh appetites uh for sex for acquisition, for uh dominance and all sorts of things that sometimes can be can be very ugly, and they're part of your evolutionary heritage and that that you share with a lot of other species, and certainly with uh with with with your other kind. 00:55:46.559 --> 00:56:09.840 And then we have the we have the rational, the higher, the uh the the more considered, and we so uh uh as there is there are contradictions and conflicts going on between the different parts of of our own brains and our own identity continually, even between the left and the right hemisphere of the brain. 00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:13.599 Um they're doing different things, paying attention to different things. 00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:18.400 And you know, um Daniel Carnegie wrote his book uh thinking fast and slow. 00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:29.519 You know, that we have these different circuitries that are trying to do different things that are useful to us, and occasionally they come and uh uh interfere with each other. 00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:36.639 Um and we also, as as other people have pointed out, we also kind of we are designed to be hypocrites. 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:46.400 We're designed to blind to to to to have uh you know uh what's the the phrase deniability uh that they use in politics. 00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:53.840 Um to have you know, so so you could say, oh I didn't know, you know, I didn't realize I was doing something bad. 00:56:54.079 --> 00:57:04.159 Um uh because we can act selfishly and then pretend and uh but not realize we're acting selfishly, and then we've dressed it up as being rather high-minded. 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:20.559 So uh under so I think it's beholden upon us to understand that, because if we don't understand it, then uh other people may understand it before you do, uh, and may then uh label you or deal with you in a way that you you don't want. 00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:34.000 So you're you're better off uh managing your own uh uh uh dark side than than uh than letting it trip you up and and so suppressing it it is is not is not the answer. 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:46.079 The answer is to say identify it, figure out what it is, and turn it into something more harmless, like a Zemblanity, to turn it into something you can say, well, you know, this is this is me and fine. 00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:50.079 And and hopefully people who love you will tolerate you and help you. 00:57:50.320 --> 00:58:05.599 Um it always seems to me uh astonishing and and very human to see how uh people are forgiven for for things that are um often uh very very very challenging. 00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:28.480 Nigel, that reminds me of a comment you made at the outset, which was I think your point number two, which is that uh people are strangers to themselves, and it seems like part of one of the goals perhaps of life is to become less of a stranger to yourself, and maybe part of that is by getting some understanding of these potential dark sides. 00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:29.360 Would you agree with that? 00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:30.159 Or what do you think? 00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:38.159 No, I completely agree with that, and I think you know, and the Hogan Dark Dark Triad uh work I think is is terrific in this regard. 00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:51.840 I think it's very helpful to know this, um, not in a sense to kind of label yourself or to beat yourself up or to marginalize yourself, but to say, look, these these are things that that that that we have to live with. 00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:56.960 Um I was at a conference and I met a woman who said to me, Oh, I'm ADHD. 00:58:57.039 --> 00:58:59.599 So I said, I really want to, and what's that involve? 00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.440 And she started reeling off the symptoms. 00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:03.679 So I said, Oh, I have most of those. 00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:08.079 So I've come to the conclusion I'm mildly ADHD myself. 00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:09.679 Um, and learning to live with it. 00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:18.719 And

I know in my case, I know it means my being impulsive or being irritated and interrupting people or talking too much and the things that I'm possibly doing now. 00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:25.119 But you know, um uh uh but you learn to deal with it and you learn you learn to manage yourself. 00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:40.000 And if if if you don't, then uh uh then I think you you you can you can become open to uh the kinds of categorizations that I think are very damaging and uh uh unnecessary. 00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:58.159 Um I I I'm waging a war in my book against categorization, really, and I think the purpose of of measuring people by any psychometrics test is not to label people, um, but to help them manage a dynamic process of being who they are. 00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:00.320 Oh, I love that. 01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:02.400 That's that's a great way to put it. 01:00:02.800 --> 01:00:14.880 And you know, Nigel, I think the the the elephant in the room for a lot of people right now, or at least one of the hot topics in the world, is is AI. 01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.000 Uh it's arguably the hottest topic in today's world. 01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:18.480 That's right. 01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:23.440 And that's that's definitely saying something based on current global affairs. 01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:29.199 Um I'm curious, how do you see AI affecting our UI? 01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:35.280 And uh, what are some of the positives and negatives of this new technology and what it has in store for us? 01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:36.239 Yes. 01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:54.000 Um, well, I in the book I say uh uh UI is our last line of defense against AI, uh, in the sense that what what what artificial intelligence does is brilliant mimicry and uh simulation, so it can make you think there's a real person. 01:00:54.079 --> 01:01:07.360 And in fact, in that chapter, I reproduce a conversation, a very realistic conversation I had with uh with an American woman who was uh uh a bot um in the company of a futurist Patrick Dixon. 01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:29.199 And um we had this very interesting conversation, and um but of course, you know what what when you when you stop and think, there are uh the interesting thing is that that computers and AI can't even begin to simulate a single element of human thought processes. 01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:39.599 Uh I mean all our perception i i is is a controlled hallucination, I think, as as has been said by um neuroscientists. 01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:52.719 You know, we we construct the the uh what we see of the world is a mental construction uh where we're actually predicting what what the stimuli that we that we see uh in in the moment. 01:01:52.960 --> 01:02:11.039 Um and our thought processes are full of randomness and chaos and things that come from from left field and uh the the way the way we improvise in our speech and so these are things that that uh AI uh uh can't can't come come close to. 01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:22.719 So we have we have supreme gifts of um quixotic uh uh strangeness and creativity and um relatability. 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:27.440 I've got a whole list of the things that that that they that machines can't do. 01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:32.480 However, they still represent uh both a threat and an opportunity. 01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:40.079 And uh I would say that the the threats are probably there are three major threats, I think, psychologically anyway. 01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:42.800 Uh I don't I'm not talking about losing jobs or things like that. 01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:43.840 I'm talking about the psycho. 01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:54.800 Number one is laziness, uh, and I think that there is a real risk that we allow machines to make decisions that we should be making. 01:02:55.199 --> 01:03:06.559 Uh the second is gullibility, is of of we we like to believe things that are nice, and we like to believe uh when people massage us with the positive, you know. 01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:18.079 I notice any interaction I have with with um with this with an AI engine always starts off by saying, Oh, what a nice idea that was, Nigel, or something, what an interesting thought that was. 01:03:18.159 --> 01:03:25.360 I mean, of course it did, doesn't think my thoughts are interesting at all, doesn't have any thoughts about my thoughts, but it says those things. 01:03:25.519 --> 01:03:31.760 But w we are very easily seduced by that by those things, and that's that's also part of our nature. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:49.920 And the third threat, I think, is powerlessness, is that we become fatalistic because we say, I mean, if a machine can predict that you're not going to win a race, and indeed uh one of my uh informants, uh Toby Velt in the in my book is doing research just on this. 01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:55.039 I mean, he has data that can show you what uh the limits to an athlete's performance. 01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:59.519 Well, you can see the feedback loop there could be very could be very damaging. 01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:03.679 They say, well, I'm what's the point of competing, you know, if I can't win. 01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:04.960 What's the point? 01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:10.800 Um, and uh you can see how people may may surrender. 01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:16.880 Uh but on the positive side, um uh uh we have we have the opportunities. 01:04:16.960 --> 01:04:21.599 I I mean I think we are now I think we're living in an age of UI as well as an age of AI. 01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:41.840 I I really believe my I hope my book is is is part of part of a process ushering an uh a new world of of uh respect uh of a new new new way of thinking about uh the individual because uh we can now personalize in so many different ways using intelligent uh um uh technology. 01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:49.119 Uh there's huge opportunities for learning and uh and to way uh to improve the way we m we make decisions. 01:04:49.280 --> 01:05:04.880 I mean I found it very helpful uh in my in my writing my book to use

to use these these technologies to help me find things and help me out uh to to to to uh delve into s into certain kind of questions. 01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:09.599 But most uh but I would never let it let it write a word for me, I may say. 01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:12.880 And for that extent, then it extends your capability. 01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:21.199 And I think uh again, that's the great the great promise of of uh well-managed uh uh AI is to is to extend your capability. 01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:32.880 But in terms of material threats, the real biggest threat is some crazy people getting uh using AI to to destroy uh the fabric of our of our lives and societies. 01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:36.000 And that that is a real that's a real threat. 01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:43.840 Um so uh but I'm I'm I'm no soothsayer, so don't ask me what's gonna happen in the future. 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:58.320 But I do believe, I I think that the the the recognition of UI as being something really to be reckoned with in the in the in the context of of the of the tech revolution is is is absolutely central. 01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:15.599 Well Uh Nigel, I don't want to ask you to predict the future here, but I do have a sort of a question that's related uh to that concept, which is you know, particularly thinking about AI and this concept of you know human individual uniqueness. 01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:16.400 Yeah. 01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:22.079 There's been for a long time, there has been attempts and discussions about cloning. 01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:27.280 I remember when uh cloned a sheep, and is that sheep exactly the same? 01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:30.559 And is this exactly the same person if they were clones? 01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:41.119 What about this notion that an you know I've seen some people say, well, I've created an AI agent who who just does my task, does work for me, attends meetings for me, does right? 01:06:41.519 --> 01:06:50.000 This notion that we could create an AI agent that replicates perfectly the uniqueness that makes up us. 01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:54.639 Do you think that's even in the realm of possibility, or is that absolutely not. 01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:56.079 Absolutely not. 01:06:56.239 --> 01:07:11.199 Because for the reasons I've just uh I've we spent this time talking about, I guess, is is is the level of complexity and development and and and you know let's just take the simple example of the self-concept. 01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:23.519 Um just thinking about yourself in a different way changes everything in a way that you you can't imagine uh an artificial uh intelligent system doing. 01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:25.920 It's not capable of thinking about itself in a different way. 01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:30.400 It doesn't, it doesn't have a concept of itself, it just it just does, you know. 01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:50.159 Um and um uh and I so so I think this is really uh uh you know, I mean I I in I I've talked to identical twins um who who to some extent have the same starter pact in terms of DNA, but they they diverge from the very beginning. 01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:54.000 Uh and they diverge because their experience is not identical. 01:07:54.400 --> 01:08:04.960 Uh uh they might be identical twins, but their experience is not identical, then they may become very close, but they'll never they'll but they they never become replicants of each other. 01:08:05.039 --> 01:08:12.480 And you know, a a clone of you or a clone of me would very quickly diverge because it would have different experiences. 01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:18.239 So that that's the you know, that that's the philosophical or that's the theoretical point, if you like. 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:30.319 I mean, having somebody who does who uh having a gopher uh who who kind of functions for you uh as an AI assistant, well, yes, I'm sure we're gonna get those so robotics later. 01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:35.600 I I'm I uh and uh I and I'm sure they'll be used and misused. 01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:42.239 Um I think there is a more troubling aspect is is is about tinkering with the human genome. 01:08:42.560 --> 01:09:03.119 And uh I don't know what I think this is where governments and regulation uh are gonna try to control, but at some point uh they the things will evade the controls and people will there will be Frankenstein experiments that go on and will have probably um some some nasty consequences. 01:09:03.359 --> 01:09:08.319 But it it kind of it it doesn't really work in the same way as eugenics never really worked. 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:17.439 I mean they people thought you know you could breed a master race, the Nazis thought that, um, and it was practiced in other in other places as well. 01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:22.000 But of course, that was based upon a faulty reading about stock breeding. 01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:38.319 They're totally ignorant about what really happens in in genetic reproduction and things and things like epigenetics and so on, which which are all kinds of uh uh subtle and unknowable effects. 01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:51.680 So um I don't I don't think that I don't think those uh that the uh I think those those kinds of experiments are gonna be are gonna be fraught with difficulty and will become probably a a legal and a and a moral battleground. 01:09:52.000 --> 01:10:10.319 And and and by the way, I just want to conclude on on a note because I want I I don't want people to think at the end of this uh podcast, or indeed at the end of reading my book, if you do read the book, um this is not uh I'm not here as an advocate of selfish individualism. 01:10:10.479 --> 01:10:19.680 This is absolutely not the thrust of of of of the idea of UI, of a unique individuality. 01:10:20.079 --> 01:10:28.800 Um in fact, quite the contrary, if you think about my four laws, each of those four laws of of UI has a moral imperative. 01:10:28.960 --> 01:10:32.720 The first one is to be yourself, the second one is be humble and be

forgiving. 01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:40.159 Um the third one is reach out to other people and resonate with them, the fourth one is find the find the find the best way of connecting with people. 01:10:40.319 --> 01:10:42.720 All of those things are very pro-social. 01:10:43.279 --> 01:10:54.880 So I'm my hope is that this uh takes us in the direction more of genuine community, genuine communality, of people with diversity. 01:10:55.199 --> 01:10:57.600 Diversity is is is is the key. 01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:01.520 And this is the real I'm talking here about the real metadiversity. 01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:08.319 Instead of the tokenism of race and gender and so on, you know, those are very crude categories. 01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:19.439 The real diversity is is the diversity that exists between any any two people in uh in the in their makeup and uh and their orientation to the world. 01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:23.920 Well, Nigel, this has been such a great conversation. 01:11:24.079 --> 01:11:25.760 I think our audience is gonna love it. 01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:29.279 But I do have one last question, and it does involve you predicting the future. 01:11:29.359 --> 01:11:39.359 So are you uh and that is how do you think the study and our understanding of UI will evolve in the years and centuries to come? 01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:48.960 Well, um I I in terms of uh I I find I I find it's a difficult question, Dotter. 01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:55.920 I I I'm very interested in the concept of meta traits, which I don't think has been properly has been properly uh tackled. 01:11:56.079 --> 01:12:02.880 I think we could get a greater level of complexity in the psychometrics by thinking about meta traits. 01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:14.319 Um I'm specifically, it's always intrigued me when I because I I test myself re uh uh uh once a year pretty well just to see what's going on, you know. 01:12:14.399 --> 01:12:18.079 Um and it always intrigues me the things that move and the things that don't move. 01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:23.279 And um, and I always say this to people, you know, some of these some of your scores will change and some of them won't. 01:12:23.439 --> 01:12:26.800 And I can't tell you which will and which will which won't. 01:12:27.039 --> 01:12:36.960 Um and uh so so uh so I think there is uh there are other levels of of analysis that we we could draw out from this. 01:12:37.199 --> 01:13:05.039 My hope is also that it becomes that does become tied to something that accomp that also uh encompasses uh people's lived experience uh in a biographical sense because the the now and the narratives and some integration between between these concepts and and uh what Dan McAdams talks about, between psychometrics and and uh and and the analysis of of the narratives that be that people carry. 01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:19.439 Um and uh uh so so um uh but my but but I think for me that the real the real uh prize is that people will read my book and say, oh, this is a new way of seeing the world. 01:13:19.520 --> 01:13:27.039 I'm I'm I'm gonna stop thinking about people in simplistic categorical terms and try to understand who they really are. 01:13:28.079 --> 01:13:32.399 Well, Nigel, I just want to say thanks so much for joining us for this episode. 01:13:32.560 --> 01:13:37.039 Uh this is a fantastic topic, uh, one that we've not dug into. 01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:49.439 I mean, you you at the outset you mentioned Gordon Alport, and um, you know, I I it's a topic that, again, I don't think anybody's mentioned his name in in all the years that we've been doing this podcast. 01:13:49.600 --> 01:14:05.039 So I I really appreciate the perspective on uniqueness and talking about how that is so important in our lives, particularly, you know, again, on this this podcast about personality, it's sort of amazing, you know, the point that you made at the outset that we've really avoided this topic. 01:14:05.199 --> 01:14:09.600 But I also want read uh our listeners to to know where they can get a copy of your book. 01:14:09.680 --> 01:14:18.800 And I believe by the time this episode comes out, it should be available in pretty much all the places where you can commonly get a book, uh, published by Hogan Press. 01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:24.960 And I believe if some of our listeners want to get in touch with you, you're available on LinkedIn. 01:14:25.039 --> 01:14:25.680 Is that true? 01:14:25.920 --> 01:14:26.479 Absolutely. 01:14:26.560 --> 01:14:32.880 Yeah, uh I'm very pleased to uh to support anybody's uh interest in this field. 01:14:34.399 --> 01:14:37.600 Well, Nigel, I really appreciate you coming on. 01:14:37.760 --> 01:14:41.119 I know Ryan does as well, and our audience is gonna love this one. 01:14:41.279 --> 01:14:43.039 So thank you so much for joining us for us. 01:14:43.119 --> 01:14:46.640 Well, thank you, Blake, and thank you, Ryan, for a wonderful discussion. 01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:47.840 I really appreciated it. 01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:51.199 And I hope your audience did too. 01:14:53.039 --> 01:14:57.119 And that does it for the Science of Personality Podcast, episode 144. 01:14:57.359 --> 01:15:01.039 Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun and informative episode. 01:15:01.279 --> 01:15:02.880 Cheers, everybody. 01:15:03.439 --> 01:15:08.079 This has been the Science of Personality Podcast, brought to you by Hogan Assessments. 01:15:08.239 --> 01:15:15.359 You can access all episodes on our website, the science of personality.com, or on the streaming service of your choice. 01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:17.039 See you next time.