התמלול המלא של How to Scale a Remote Recruitment Agency to 35 People, with Stephen Borer and Shawna Wagner

well as with the founders that I work with, that specialists outperform generalists 90% of the time. 63 00:04:52.543 --> 00:04:56.885 It's definitely, I think, a better model. 64 00:04:57.225 --> 00:05:03.268 I'm curious, and I'm sure we'll get more into this, but what were some of those things that you felt like you said there was a... 65 00:05:04.188 --> 00:05:15.260 Philosophical difference, like in the way that you felt a recruitment business should be run that presumably you have implemented within DMC. 66 00:05:15.821 --> 00:05:22.649 What are those like, what's the thesis or what's the premise that you founded this business on? 67 00:05:23.362 --> 00:05:27.148 Well, it's not jokes, but we're pretty funny too. 68 00:05:28.470 --> 00:05:33.537 I'd say I think a lot of it was that sort of real consultant feel. 69 00:05:33.857 --> 00:05:38.384 So the less transactional recruiter and the more like, I'm going to take you from here. 70 00:05:39.265 --> 00:05:46.171 you know, walk you through the process, take you through details and really get that nice recruitment feeling. 71 00:05:46.191 --> 00:05:51.675 So less, I really believe that, you know, our consultants are called consultants for a reason. 72 00:05:51.735 --> 00:05:52.496 That's what we do. 73 00:05:52.556 --> 00:05:54.337 That's how we work. 74 00:05:54.537 --> 00:06:05.166 Rather than just, you know, a headhunter or a recruiter, we really try to be more of that executive, yeah, consultant through process, both on the client and the candidate side. 75 00:06:05.206 --> 00:06:07.748 So I think that was one thing for that feel. 76 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.082 And that's been demonstrated from the data, right? 77 00:06:11.102 --> 00:06:19.348 Like we historically, when we were working at that previous business, I think they were running at maybe 10% retained. 78 00:06:20.168 --> 00:06:24.692 You know, we're now running at about 50% retained, 50% contingent. 79 00:06:25.432 --> 00:06:29.035 And we also only ever work on exclusive work. 80 00:06:29.135 --> 00:06:34.839 So we will not take multi-agency work as a kind of blanket rule for our business. 81 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.581 So that was a kind of, you know, 82 00:06:37.961 --> 00:07:03.030 major change um in the business i think we um we also the previous business opened my eyes like i you know previous to this i was a you know big big firm i mean i don't mind telling you i'm quite happy to bash them on on here i was a michael page uh recruiter for 12 years i was director of the 83 00:07:06.212 --> 00:07:09.534 And I guess you're blinkered in that environment. 84 00:07:09.574 --> 00:07:13.017 You don't see out and you don't see what the opportunity is. 85 00:07:13.118 --> 00:07:33.035 And to be fair to the guy that we set up the previous business with, he did and he understood the technology really was ready to allow remote offerings and allow a much more nimble recruitment business from those big, you know, the big sausage factories. 86 00:07:33.735 --> 00:07:37.056 Um, and so that, you know, we kind of learned that. 87 00:07:37.556 --> 00:07:48.439 Um, but I think what, what we also learned through that experience was just because people are remote, it doesn't mean that you can't have a team and a culture. 88 00:07:49.039 --> 00:07:56.221 And I think that's probably what I'm most proud of in our business is that we've got a really, really tight culture. 89 00:07:56.582 --> 00:08:01.243 And yet we've got people literally coast to coast across Canada, um, um, 90 00:08:01.983 --> 00:08:13.671 We've got a small head office in Kelowna with maybe 12 of us here, but the rest of the 35 people are spread across the country working remotely. 91 00:08:14.431 --> 00:08:19.115 But, you know, I never want them to feel like they're sat in their bedroom room. 92 00:08:19.715 --> 00:08:22.159 working on their own, not connected to anyone. 93 00:08:22.179 --> 00:08:22.940 Do you know what I mean? 94 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:34.798 I want them to have the feeling, and I genuinely think we've got that right, where they're sharing work with each other, they're on the phones with each other, they know what they're doing at the weekend, they 95 00:08:35.198 --> 00:08:42.564 Like we have very close personal relationships with everyone across our team and they with each other as well. 96 00:08:43.284 --> 00:08:49.869 And so we, you know, we work on the kind of language of dispersed team rather than remote team. 97 00:08:50.129 --> 00:08:54.773 So, yeah, I think that's been quite important culturally for us as well. 98 00:08:55.233 --> 00:08:55.953 Okay. 99 00:08:56.053 --> 00:08:57.234 I'd love to dig into that. 100 00:08:57.254 --> 00:08:59.195 By the way, do you have anyone in Halifax? 101 00:08:59.235 --> 00:08:59.935 That's where I'm from. 102 00:09:00.295 --> 00:09:00.955 Halifax? 103 00:09:01.135 --> 00:09:04.577 No, we've got someone on, what's the island called? 104 00:09:04.717 --> 00:09:05.377 PEI? 105 00:09:05.737 --> 00:09:06.057 No. 106 00:09:06.877 --> 00:09:07.117 No. 107 00:09:07.218 --> 00:09:07.838 Oh, my God. 108 00:09:09.018 --> 00:09:12.319 Quebec Island off Halifax somewhere. 109 00:09:12.339 --> 00:09:15.381 Oh, I can't ever remember the name of it, but it's really small. 110 00:09:15.401 --> 00:09:17.401 She might be the only person there. 111 00:09:17.421 --> 00:09:18.142 I don't even know. 112 00:09:19.782 --> 00:09:22.145 In a lighthouse with seals. 113 00:09:23.546 --> 00:09:26.709 She's going to kill us if she hears this. 114 00:09:28.110 --> 00:09:28.770 That's funny. 115 00:09:28.871 --> 00:09:29.251 Okay. 116 00:09:29.271 --> 00:09:33.034 So, Dispersed team, you've got 30 people, right? 117 00:09:33.275 --> 00:09:34.656 35, yeah. 118 00:09:34.696 --> 00:09:35.316 35, sorry. 119 00:09:35.376 --> 00:09:39.961 And how many of those are billers versus support staff? 120 00:09:40.001 --> 00:09:42.783 We've got about six support staff, something like that. 121

00:09:43.163 --> 00:09:45.626 Yeah, I think it's 28 billers is what we have. 122 00:09:46.246 --> 00:09:47.067 Okay, fantastic. 123 00:09:47.127 --> 00:09:50.849 So this debate is never going to end. 124 00:09:50.929 --> 00:09:58.474 It's like, is it better to have a remote team or in office for building a recruitment agency? 125 00:10:00.095 --> 00:10:06.819 We actually have a lot of our clients who are very successful scaling remote teams, but it's not without its challenges. 126 00:10:07.560 --> 00:10:11.122 How have you guys created that such tight-knit platform 127 00:10:12.532 --> 00:10:19.297 team, collaborative, high-performing culture when everyone has sat in their own home office? 128 00:10:19.978 --> 00:10:21.139 I think there's a few things. 129 00:10:22.040 --> 00:10:22.300 Um... 130 00:10:23.538 --> 00:10:35.561 I think, A, again, that kind of consultant focus, so that expectation of giving really, really good service to candidates and clients, allows for people to need to interact with each other more. 131 00:10:35.601 --> 00:10:41.162 They'll have questions, they'll want to know things, they have to collaborate, or they will not be able to do their job properly. 132 00:10:41.242 --> 00:10:42.342 Like, really, truly. 133 00:10:43.303 --> 00:10:46.483 If you're more transactional, it's easier to just kind of work on your own. 134 00:10:46.503 --> 00:10:48.564 You're like, okay, feel this, feel that, or not. 135 00:10:48.764 --> 00:10:53.005 Oh, I have to, you know, it's a bit easier to just kind of run on your own beat. 136 00:10:53.865 --> 00:10:57.169 Um, and then I think there's non-negotiables for us. 137 00:10:57.209 --> 00:11:02.015 We have a team meeting that we have every Friday morning and we never, ever change it. 138 00:11:02.155 --> 00:11:08.022 It's always there, whether sometimes it's a coffees meeting, sometimes it's a numbers meeting. 139 00:11:08.363 --> 00:11:10.405 It depends on what it is, but it's always there. 140 00:11:10.505 --> 00:11:12.868 It's always available and everybody attends. 141 00:11:12.888 --> 00:11:13.489 Yeah. 142 00:11:14.410 --> 00:11:20.118 And then we have discipline meetings as well where our building materials and team meets all together. 143 00:11:20.138 --> 00:11:24.243 They talk about the market, what they're doing, and then our other teams meet together too. 144 00:11:24.343 --> 00:11:27.628 So there's a lot of like collaboration there. 145 00:11:28.011 --> 00:11:29.131 Yeah. 146 00:11:29.271 --> 00:11:45.497 Even the way that we work roles, so every one of our consultants is a 360 recruiter, but the natural transition of joining a business is that initially when you join, you don't have loads of clients to work on. 147 00:11:48.398 --> 00:11:57.460 But then, you know, I guess as you grow through, you get to a point where you've got so many clients to work on that you can't actually deliver because you've got too much. 148 00:11:57.820 --> 00:12:12.484 And so we've been super fortunate of kind of building a team that's got very experienced recruiters that are super high billers that are effectively rainmaking for the newbies that are coming through. 149 00:12:18.505 --> 00:12:26.989 experienced recruiters initially so that they've got work immediately, but they also learn from those experienced recruiters. 150 00:12:27.409 --> 00:12:36.573 The experienced recruiters have the benefit of being able to take on 25 jobs because they've got resources that can work some of those jobs. 151 00:12:37.754 --> 00:12:40.235 And so both sides are benefiting. 152 00:12:40.355 --> 00:12:44.397 And then we're constantly building through consultants that will then 153 00:12:45.257 --> 00:12:47.660 you know, start to do more work of their own. 154 00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:58.992 They go through a period where they're just picking up their own work and filling their own work until they get too busy that they need to start to bring those resources through. 155 00:12:59.092 --> 00:13:03.177 So, I mean, everyone starts as a recruitment, you know, senior recruitment consultant. 156 00:13:03.597 --> 00:13:06.260 Honestly, if they can click their fingers and 157 00:13:07.221 --> 00:13:09.803 bring on their own work instantly, then that's fine. 158 00:13:09.823 --> 00:13:10.964 There's no issues with that. 159 00:13:11.264 --> 00:13:13.566 But we just find the natural evolution. 160 00:13:13.626 --> 00:13:18.810 And in even our management structure, we have non-billing managers in the middle there. 161 00:13:20.951 --> 00:13:24.314 Initially, they work for a recruitment development manager. 162 00:13:24.334 --> 00:13:28.096 So they come in and they do a four-week onboarding program. 163 00:13:28.156 --> 00:13:28.597 And we have 164 00:13:29.077 --> 00:13:43.825 We have the DMC way, we call it, which is very much structured, kind of the best practice, best way to approach doing an interview, presenting candidates, etc. 165 00:13:44.505 --> 00:13:48.367 So four weeks of that run by the partners and the training manager. 166 00:13:48.927 --> 00:13:58.452 And then they kind of report directly to a recruitment development manager for the next 12 to 18 months who helps them build their patch. 167 00:13:58.832 --> 00:14:11.958 And then they go into working for a manager who's more used to working with experienced recruiters and helping them kind of maximize their performance rather than building their initial skills. 168 00:14:12.734 --> 00:14:14.455 It took us a while to get that right, though. 169 00:14:15.276 --> 00:14:23.220 We initially had recruitment consultants join and then have the opportunity to become a manager while also still billing. 170 00:14:23.501 --> 00:14:27.963 And that just, if you know recruitment, just doesn't work the right way. 171 00:14:28.143 --> 00:14:29.404 It's so hard. 172 00:14:30.705 --> 00:14:32.466 So we changed the structure. 173 00:14:32.486 --> 00:14:38.209 I think also on top of how we bring people on and get them

engaged and... 174 00:14:39.130 --> 00:14:43.872 keep them kind of close to us, we still also allow for their own independence. 175 00:14:44.292 --> 00:14:47.634 They can work on their own jobs wherever they want. 176 00:14:47.734 --> 00:15:03.661 We give them sectors to kind of, you know, focus on, you know, you either work in architecture design where you're, you know, trying to call architects or you're working building materials and tile, but you can work, do those types of positions kind of all over Canada or the U.S. 177 00:15:03.961 --> 00:15:06.683 So that independent nature of building your own desk 178 00:15:07.603 --> 00:15:12.888 helps build a bit of that collaboration because you're asking people like, well, how did you do this and how did you build that? 179 00:15:13.529 --> 00:15:19.914 And so on top of the training, which, again, was a process, we figured that out. 180 00:15:20.315 --> 00:15:24.939 And now, you know, consultants can get out there and do their own work. 181 00:15:24.999 --> 00:15:25.700 So that's... 182 00:15:26.180 --> 00:15:28.001 That's kind of how I see the culture building too. 183 00:15:28.041 --> 00:15:36.203 Yeah, one of the things we did that was neat that helped towards that that Shauna's just describing is the origin story. 184 00:15:36.263 --> 00:15:53.308 So as Shauna already mentioned, we have this kind of mandatory Friday team meeting and we do a variety of things from reporting on the team numbers to a training session to, you know, kind of tips and tricks session in terms of how to use systems and how to find candidates and stuff. 185 00:15:53.768 --> 00:15:59.612 But, um, we also, the end of the month, one person does their origin story. 186 00:16:00.132 --> 00:16:04.114 Um, and so it's a little bit of where did you come from? 187 00:16:04.134 --> 00:16:05.395 How, where did you grow up? 188 00:16:05.435 --> 00:16:14.040 Just kind of getting to know your teammates better, but it is also quite an, um, uh, a focus on how did you build your desk? 189 00:16:14.341 --> 00:16:17.863 How did you grow that particular market? 190 00:16:17.923 --> 00:16:20.304 What, who are your, who is your market? 191 00:16:20.364 --> 00:16:21.525 How, how do you build? 192 00:16:21.965 --> 00:16:24.247 developed that big account that you've got? 193 00:16:24.507 --> 00:16:28.930 What was it, the tips and tricks that you've done that have made you successful? 194 00:16:28.970 --> 00:16:33.032 And the consultants have loved that because it's very real to them. 195 00:16:33.092 --> 00:16:39.597 They know X is doing super well, and they're all really interested to hear how that person has 196 00:16:40.157 --> 00:16:44.119 Because we all know we can do recruitment a thousand different ways, right? 197 00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:47.121 You've got to lean into your kind of superpowers. 198 00:16:47.221 --> 00:16:53.685 And so it's interesting listening to people describe that and educate the rest of the team. 199 00:16:54.446 --> 00:16:55.126 I love that. 200 00:16:55.246 --> 00:16:56.007 Okay, so... 201 00:16:57.305 --> 00:17:13.339 Let me set aside the overall question we started on, which was building culture in a remote or let's say dispersed environment, because you've raised some really interesting things I'd like to drill down on. 202 00:17:13.419 --> 00:17:15.741 So first of all, the team structure is, 203 00:17:17.468 --> 00:17:21.810 in some ways is familiar, but in other ways you've departed from the norm. 204 00:17:21.890 --> 00:17:31.854 So the idea of 360 degree consultants, that's, you know, I, I, that's a, that's a definitely a common model, but yeah, 205 00:17:33.034 --> 00:17:36.197 What is the exact structure in the business? 206 00:17:36.217 --> 00:17:45.263 Because you lost me a little bit when you said you have these recruitment development managers and they're different to the other managers and whether they're billing or not. 207 00:17:45.343 --> 00:17:49.607 So could you just explain that to me like I'm a sixth grader? 208 00:17:50.667 --> 00:17:53.750 So we basically have... 209 00:17:55.891 --> 00:18:02.817 The consultants divided up based on their experience, their DMC experience, so how long they have been with us. 210 00:18:02.877 --> 00:18:20.652 So the more senior consultants report to a manager, his role is helping them to manage their time more effectively, dig deeper into their patches, build relationships longer, you know, better. 211 00:18:21.012 --> 00:18:22.973 They're generally our top billers. 212 00:18:23.433 --> 00:18:28.334 And top billers, a lot of the time, they need mental health support. 213 00:18:28.394 --> 00:18:29.715 That's a thing, right? 214 00:18:29.755 --> 00:18:30.995 Let's just call it like it is. 215 00:18:31.035 --> 00:18:42.979 When you've got people working remotely, you need someone that cares deeply how your patch is going, what you're doing on a day-to-day basis, is interested in you, spends time with you. 216 00:18:43.019 --> 00:18:45.840 So that's kind of part of their role. 217 00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:49.261 The rest of the role is kind of recruitment management. 218 00:18:49.621 --> 00:18:57.111 expertise and maximization and a wall to throw things out like, oh, I don't know if this candidate's going to accept that job. 219 00:18:57.552 --> 00:19:00.736 You know, have you asked them if they're happy to relocate? 220 00:19:00.796 --> 00:19:02.779 Is their wife happy that they're relocating? 221 00:19:03.159 --> 00:19:07.505 All these like little bits and pieces that you just need to, yeah, double check. 222 00:19:07.865 --> 00:19:08.226 That's it. 223 00:19:08.526 --> 00:19:11.969 So we've got the experienced recruiters reporting to that person. 224 00:19:12.389 --> 00:19:32.366 And then we have the less experienced recruiters that are kind of zero to 18 months reporting to the recruitment development manager whose job is the same, but the needs of the recruiter are different because when you're a brand

new recruiter, your needs are, well, how should I manage my day? 225 00:19:32.486 --> 00:19:33.467 And how? 226 00:19:34.688 --> 00:19:37.430 I've got this issue and I've never seen it before. 227 00:19:37.530 --> 00:19:40.192 So what do you think I should do? 228 00:19:40.393 --> 00:19:42.414 Or how should I negotiate rates? 229 00:19:42.434 --> 00:19:53.003 So their job is a bit more training and development, whereas the manager's role is more about performance maximization. 230 00:19:53.103 --> 00:19:53.303 Yeah. 231 00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:55.481 How did you arrive at this model? 232 00:19:55.501 --> 00:20:00.804 Because I have not seen that exact way of structuring things before. 233 00:20:00.824 --> 00:20:06.427 Honestly, Mark, we damn near killed ourselves. 234 00:20:07.027 --> 00:20:08.168 Literally. 235 00:20:08.308 --> 00:20:10.950 That is the honest truth. 236 00:20:11.470 --> 00:20:17.113 The billing manager is an incredibly difficult role in recruitment. 237 00:20:17.133 --> 00:20:18.054 100%. 238 00:20:18.094 --> 00:20:18.314 And... 239 00:20:20.095 --> 00:20:29.500 Yeah, I mean, you know, I think we'll be transparent enough to say that we, you know, we've been to the well and back in terms of doing that ourselves. 240 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:32.921 We knew we needed to get managers in. 241 00:20:33.101 --> 00:20:42.506 We, you know, we tried and honestly pushed a couple of key people internally to the well and back as well, not just the partners. 242 00:20:43.186 --> 00:20:46.348 And, you know, we're super thankful for our team kind of – 243 00:20:46.968 --> 00:20:54.814 giving as hard as they physically could, but we, we basically over and over proved that the billing manager just, it just couldn't survive. 244 00:20:55.034 --> 00:21:00.818 So, um, yeah, that, that's where we decided we needed, you know, managers. 245 00:21:00.838 --> 00:21:01.138 Okay. 246 00:21:01.478 --> 00:21:08.624 So this is so interesting because everyone agrees the billing manager is the toughest job in recruitment. 247 00:21:08.644 --> 00:21:09.044 Yeah. 248 00:21:09.726 --> 00:21:11.687 But I've never heard anyone say, do you know what? 249 00:21:12.427 --> 00:21:17.810 We've tried that and it was, as you said, almost killed us. 250 00:21:18.330 --> 00:21:24.272 And so we're going to do something different to that. 251 00:21:24.292 --> 00:21:25.713 That's quite an innovative idea. 252 00:21:25.793 --> 00:21:31.295 So I guess the follow-up question to that is how do you compensate that person? 253 00:21:31.355 --> 00:21:36.518 Because typically, the billing manager is still... 254 00:21:37.558 --> 00:21:47.826 running a desk, making placements, earning commission, and then potentially they get some kind of an incentive linked to the team performing. 255 00:21:48.027 --> 00:21:49.708 That was actually the problem, right? 256 00:21:49.748 --> 00:21:54.192 Because it's way easier for a consultant to make a 257 00:22:00.664 --> 00:22:05.849 than us to give them

$20,000 for the time managing people, right? 258 00:22:06.249 --> 00:22:08.271 It's tight margins in recruitment. 259 00:22:08.291 --> 00:22:10.193 Let's not kid ourselves here. 260 00:22:10.313 --> 00:22:13.736 And so, yeah, that was difficult. 261 00:22:13.776 --> 00:22:16.198 So the managers are on – 262 00:22:18.188 --> 00:22:38.180 pretty good base salaries with um uh a reasonably good bonus tied to the uh end of year performance the the performance of the business i would say we're still we're still tweaking that to to to make sure that they feel like rewarded like a 263 00:22:39.338 --> 00:22:40.959 a job well done. 264 00:22:41.419 --> 00:22:52.225 But we've got two guys that are very experienced recruiters, but I think they both know that their calling is not transacting on jobs day to day. 265 00:22:52.285 --> 00:22:56.788 They actually prefer the people side, the management side of things. 266 00:22:56.888 --> 00:23:00.370 They get more reward seeing someone else do well. 267 00:23:00.550 --> 00:23:05.853 And, you know, when we're hiring them, they need to know that, you know, they're not going to be earning profit 268 00:23:06.053 --> 00:23:15.820 $400,000 like our top billers are doing or more, they're just not going to be earning that, right? 269 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:19.702 So they need to get their head around that before they come into the role. 270 00:23:19.722 --> 00:23:25.446 And the two guys that we've got are super cool with that so far. 271 00:23:25.466 --> 00:23:26.847 And I think figuring out... 272 00:23:27.247 --> 00:23:31.429 their long-term growth and their runway is probably like, that'll be the next hurdle. 273 00:23:32.810 --> 00:23:44.557 But there's opportunity for us to, because we're niche too, there's opportunity for them to get into different markets and understand like, you know, are we going to, do you want to come to events or is there more branding things you can do? 274 00:23:44.577 --> 00:23:49.019 So there's, I think, you know, in any company, whether it's recruitment or business, 275 00:23:50.540 --> 00:23:51.500 I just thought of dentists. 276 00:23:51.520 --> 00:23:52.461 I don't know why I thought about that. 277 00:23:52.541 --> 00:23:53.861 Probably because I was just at the dentist. 278 00:23:54.081 --> 00:23:56.802 Architects would be more, yes. 279 00:23:57.622 --> 00:23:59.442 You need to know that there's progression. 280 00:23:59.702 --> 00:24:02.043 People need to know that there's somewhere else they can go. 281 00:24:02.583 --> 00:24:13.706 And so for us, getting this position right was, you know, is there a long-term strategy there for both the director of recruitment development and for the manager? 282 00:24:15.186 --> 00:24:18.407 So, yeah, I mean, we'll see how that kind of works. 283 00:24:18.447 --> 00:24:19.607 But, yeah, that's the piece. 284 00:24:20.087 --> 00:24:26.341 It's super interesting because we all know that the top biller is not necessarily, in fact, is 285 00:24:27.274 --> 00:24:30.835 very often not a great manager. 286 00:24:32.056 --> 00:24:45.060 And for someone to be a truly excellent leader and manager, they can't be that selfish kind of lone wolf sort of person who's like really focused on their own. 287 00:24:45.280 --> 00:24:52.262 I want to make as much as I possibly can because the team is always going to suffer if it's that 288 00:24:52.782 --> 00:25:01.217 Like, as you said, they're weighing, do I spend the time on my own clients or do I spend the time helping, you know, Bob or Jill over here? 289 00:25:02.099 --> 00:25:04.383 So, that's very interesting. 290 00:25:07.335 --> 00:25:07.615 Okay. 291 00:25:07.855 --> 00:25:08.235 Do you know what? 292 00:25:08.255 --> 00:25:12.217 I don't want to get fixated on that because we have so many other things I want to learn about. 293 00:25:12.297 --> 00:25:27.041 Like your training program, the DMC Way, all companies that are successful in scaling figure out how to, first of all, identify and bring on board the right people. 294 00:25:27.181 --> 00:25:29.802 And secondly, how to train and develop them. 295 00:25:29.962 --> 00:25:34.823 And thirdly, how to retain and hold on to those people. 296 00:25:36.724 --> 00:25:37.684 It sounds simple. 297 00:25:37.744 --> 00:25:39.425 It's a lot harder to actually do. 298 00:25:39.565 --> 00:25:44.687 But the training piece, how does that work? 299 00:25:44.807 --> 00:25:46.528 You mentioned a four week onboarding. 300 00:25:47.088 --> 00:25:50.969 And then there's this 12 to 18 month sort of development process. 301 00:25:51.349 --> 00:25:52.510 What does that actually look like? 302 00:25:53.091 --> 00:25:55.852 Can I tell a little story of how it started? 303 00:25:56.332 --> 00:25:56.932 Yeah, please. 304 00:25:57.073 --> 00:26:00.414 Because it's kind of, well, kind of how it started. 305 00:26:00.434 --> 00:26:05.036 So the DMC way really started. 306 00:26:05.216 --> 00:26:05.656 There it is. 307 00:26:05.916 --> 00:26:06.596 Oh, you've got a book. 308 00:26:06.636 --> 00:26:08.757 Wait, can you hold that up against him? 309 00:26:08.837 --> 00:26:09.157 Cool. 310 00:26:09.437 --> 00:26:14.299 Yeah, we did create a handbook, but really, truly, we were in Toronto. 311 00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:17.900 Alex, Steve, and I were like, okay, what do we do? 312 00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:20.181 And to be fair, we were all Michael Page recruiters. 313 00:26:20.641 --> 00:26:21.822 Steve was there the longest. 314 00:26:22.642 --> 00:26:26.744 Um, and him and Alex worked together and then I worked at Michael Page in Calgary. 315 00:26:27.104 --> 00:26:28.144 They shut down their office. 316 00:26:28.785 --> 00:26:31.165 Steve called me and was like, well, you sort of know what you're doing. 317 00:26:31.206 --> 00:26:32.146 So why don't you do this? 318 00:26:32.666 --> 00:26:34.327 Anyways, I was the best hire he ever had. 319 00:26:34.387 --> 00:26:34.847 I know that. 320 00:26:35.487 --> 00:26:42.470 Um, so

we were in Ontario and, uh, we were, we had a board meeting and we were like, okay, what do we do the best? 321 00:26:42.990 --> 00:26:47.132 And we just like wrote it all down on like a bunch of sheets of paper. 322 00:26:47.152 --> 00:26:47.212 Um. 323 00:26:47.792 --> 00:26:56.082 And then we took that and we put that into, I think it was an Excel document, and we kind of tailored it down to what Steve just held up, the DMC way. 324 00:26:56.422 --> 00:27:01.768 But with that, we were able to take those components, and a lot of it, to be fair, came from Michael Page. 325 00:27:02.329 --> 00:27:04.371 Like, there's a little funnel in there. 326 00:27:04.832 --> 00:27:07.194 It's a great training system, the Michael Page. 327 00:27:07.234 --> 00:27:07.735 It's amazing. 328 00:27:07.995 --> 00:27:08.476 It's good. 329 00:27:09.176 --> 00:27:10.698 And we tailored it to our way. 330 00:27:10.818 --> 00:27:15.163 And so that really helped us figure out, okay, so what does onboarding look like? 331 00:27:15.183 --> 00:27:17.907 If this is what we want to teach, what is the curriculum? 332 00:27:18.147 --> 00:27:18.908 How do we teach it? 333 00:27:19.188 --> 00:27:21.991 What do people go through when they're, what does day one look like? 334 00:27:22.031 --> 00:27:23.193 What does day two look like? 335 00:27:23.253 --> 00:27:26.557 Like, how do we get them their tech and how do all these things tie together? 336 00:27:26.577 --> 00:27:26.677 Yeah. 337 00:27:28.699 --> 00:27:35.522 And at first it was like we were mashing it all into, I think, two weeks, which was so short and exhausting. 338 00:27:36.022 --> 00:27:42.184 And so we spaced it out to have the first two weeks of our training program is about the first week is about welcome to DMC. 339 00:27:42.624 --> 00:27:44.225 Here's how you interview candidates. 340 00:27:44.265 --> 00:27:45.446 Here's how you work with candidates. 341 00:27:46.066 --> 00:27:47.946 Second week is take that into practice. 342 00:27:49.127 --> 00:27:53.729 We have a process where we want our new consultants to call have 100 cups of coffee. 343 00:27:54.169 --> 00:27:56.330 So they call 100 candidates. 344 00:27:57.390 --> 00:28:01.232 Ideally, to get knowledge, understand the market, whatever. 345 00:28:01.973 --> 00:28:05.235 The second week or the third week of training is clients. 346 00:28:05.635 --> 00:28:06.776 So how do you work with clients? 347 00:28:06.796 --> 00:28:07.876 How do you do business development? 348 00:28:07.956 --> 00:28:09.978 And then the fourth week is put that into practice. 349 00:28:10.498 --> 00:28:14.480 And then kind of after that, they're thrown in the deep end. 350 00:28:14.860 --> 00:28:15.101 Yeah. 351 00:28:15.121 --> 00:28:15.981 Well, I shouldn't say thrown. 352 00:28:16.001 --> 00:28:17.222 But that's the point of the recruiting. 353 00:28:17.242 --> 00:28:19.203 Place gently into the deep end. 354 00:28:19.623 --> 00:28:27.587 But during this four weeks, they are always given a role or two to work on with one of the senior recruiters. 355 00:28:27.747 --> 00:28:30.328 So the senior recruiters understand the deal as well. 356 00:28:30.428 --> 00:28:31.669 So they've all been through it. 357 00:28:32.129 --> 00:28:39.693 So they manage the resourcer to deliver for them and they teach them urgency. 358 00:28:39.753 --> 00:28:41.153 They teach them quality. 359 00:28:41.213 --> 00:28:47.516 They teach them the rookie is in the meetings to pick up the job. 360 00:28:49.517 --> 00:28:53.038 selling our services and closing the deal and all of that. 361 00:28:53.078 --> 00:28:56.279 So they're involved in the processes through that. 362 00:28:56.299 --> 00:29:03.962 They then absorb the recruiter development manager and their job is week to week management, right? 363 00:29:04.022 --> 00:29:11.625 It's some of the traditional stuff that every recruitment agency will be doing is sitting down and going through their pipelines and, you know, 364 00:29:12.205 --> 00:29:14.286 dealing with issues and that sort of stuff. 365 00:29:14.726 --> 00:29:39.138 But they're also held, you know, the recruiter development manager is kind of held accountable on a quarterly basis to be demonstrating growth in all of the different competencies for that recruiter to a point where he will sign off on, yes, this person is now, in my opinion, an excellent interviewer. 366 00:29:40.735 --> 00:29:44.617 ditto on every single other part of a recruitment consultant's job. 367 00:29:45.017 --> 00:29:48.679 And so his job is really to take them through that process. 368 00:29:48.719 --> 00:29:50.860 And he'll listen in on their calls. 369 00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:56.242 He'll lead calls with them when they need that, that he'll help them close deals. 370 00:29:56.302 --> 00:30:00.825 So our managers are very much in the market working 371 00:30:01.685 --> 00:30:07.527 with clients and candidates, but they don't take the revenue on it, right? 372 00:30:07.547 --> 00:30:09.948 The consultant gets that. 373 00:30:10.288 --> 00:30:12.388 The manager is just there to kind of support that. 374 00:30:13.189 --> 00:30:25.532 That's a phenomenal value add that you're giving to your team members, your recruitment consultants to get that level of support and development. 375 00:30:25.912 --> 00:30:27.593 Shauna, did you have something to add to that? 376 00:30:27.900 --> 00:30:34.888 When you think of a typical model, and I think this is generally the debate in recruitment, you're in office, you're on the phones. 377 00:30:35.188 --> 00:30:43.938 I mean, Steve has this story every time he does training where he tells everyone, when I started at Michael Page, I taped my phone to my hand and I had to... 378 00:30:44.298 --> 00:30:45.459 Pick it up every two. 379 00:30:45.499 --> 00:30:47.040 So I've heard that so many times. 380 00:30:47.360 --> 00:30:48.261 It's a great story. 381 00:30:48.581 --> 00:30:51.603 But we don't have that function. 382 00:30:51.824

--> 00:30:58.609 Like people aren't sitting beside each other, listening to calls, hearing their, you know, other consultants compete against each other. 383 00:30:58.629 --> 00:30:59.649 They don't know what they're doing. 384 00:31:00.010 --> 00:31:06.514 So we needed to figure out a way that had really strong building blocks to get people to move to the next step on their own. 385 00:31:06.975 --> 00:31:09.517 That's another thing when you mentioned... 386 00:31:10.277 --> 00:31:13.960 It sounds like you've got hiring the right people in place. 387 00:31:14.361 --> 00:31:22.827 That has been such a big thing for us, trying to figure out independence, motivation, but also like, don't forget to raise your hand to ask questions. 388 00:31:23.448 --> 00:31:25.930 And can you sit in a four-week training program? 389 00:31:26.490 --> 00:31:27.711 And can you work commission? 390 00:31:27.852 --> 00:31:34.317 It's really, that is the hardest thing to do, is to hire right for this type of an environment. 391 00:31:34.337 --> 00:31:34.537 Yeah. 392 00:31:35.008 --> 00:31:35.469 I agree. 393 00:31:36.249 --> 00:31:37.010 Let's dive into that. 394 00:31:37.030 --> 00:31:40.553 But just before we do, Stephen, you mentioned competencies. 395 00:31:40.873 --> 00:31:45.658 What are the core competencies for recruitment consultant at DMC? 396 00:31:47.635 --> 00:31:54.717 Uh, I, when I said it, I was referring to kind of competency in terms of like tactical implementation. 397 00:31:54.737 --> 00:31:58.577 So interviewing, calling, ad chasing, whatever. 398 00:31:58.597 --> 00:32:08.399 Um, what makes someone like, if you mean the bigger question of what makes someone successful within DMC? 399 00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:11.180 I mean, that's kind of where Sean is going, isn't it? 400 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:12.080 It's the, the, 401 00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:15.483 What's the magic sauce there? 402 00:32:16.904 --> 00:32:17.365 I don't know. 403 00:32:17.425 --> 00:32:33.018 Like, I've listened to loads of your pods on this, and, you know, everyone's kind of resilience, you know, kind of hustle, urgency, customer service, you know, influencing skills. 404 00:32:33.058 --> 00:32:34.699 I mean, you know, there's a whole... 405 00:32:35.520 --> 00:32:48.215 World teamwork, you know, we are a collaborative environment, so we just do not like the out-and-out hunter that, you know, the pure hunter that doesn't like to play in the sandbox with anyone else. 406 00:32:48.575 --> 00:32:50.638 That does not work in our environment. 407 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.062 But I think probably... 408 00:32:56.177 --> 00:33:03.341 A lot of the same things as you've seen, you know, you've talked to some of your other guests about, I would say. 409 00:33:03.402 --> 00:33:04.942 I mean, it's a difficult thing. 410 00:33:05.062 --> 00:33:11.706 We hire a little bit from recruitment, but we often don't like the recruiters that come in. 411 00:33:11.746 --> 00:33:18.050 We're far more successful building our own than we have been with recruiters. 412 00:33:18.435 --> 00:33:19.776 Shauna, can you talk about that? 413 00:33:19.836 --> 00:33:27.342 Because that's another debate is do you hire, do you train people from scratch or do you hire people from other agencies? 414 00:33:27.782 --> 00:33:35.528 And what's the sort of profile of the people that you have had the best success with? 415 00:33:36.048 --> 00:33:40.372 Like our top three things I would say that are really important to us when we're hiring is... 416 00:33:42.158 --> 00:33:44.999 you know, someone who's very genuine, that's huge for us. 417 00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:53.162 And authentic, like that, like, if you are authentically, if you're not, even if you're a little bit not authentic, we just know right away. 418 00:33:53.203 --> 00:33:55.984 We're like, that's not going to work, you know? 419 00:33:58.164 --> 00:34:01.826 And that motivation independence, I think is a big thing. 420 00:34:02.886 --> 00:34:04.947 And I'd say the other piece is integrity. 421 00:34:05.127 --> 00:34:07.988 Like, can you, are you doing the right thing all the time? 422 00:34:08.254 --> 00:34:10.661 Like for your candidates, for your clients, for yourself. 423 00:34:10.902 --> 00:34:15.053 So I'd say those three things are really important when we're looking at who we hire and 424 00:34:15.395 --> 00:34:23.162 That gives me the values or the behaviors that you're looking for. 425 00:34:23.943 --> 00:34:38.757 And then background, like are there certain backgrounds that you find are good veins to mine when you're searching for team members, when you're recruiting internally? 426 00:34:38.777 --> 00:34:39.978 When we're finding people, yeah. 427 00:34:40.558 --> 00:34:50.644 So generally speaking, the experience that comes that we've found really great success with is anyone who's in, I mean, a hospitality background works really well. 428 00:34:51.124 --> 00:34:58.489 So anyone who's coming from, you know, restaurants or concierge or like where they're taking care of their customers, that's a big one. 429 00:34:58.809 --> 00:35:01.110 That seems to work really well in the environment. 430 00:35:02.971 --> 00:35:08.154 Recruitment can work, but it depends on where they're coming from and the type of training they've had. 431 00:35:08.595 --> 00:35:08.955 So... 432 00:35:09.455 --> 00:35:15.639 You know, some temp recruiter usually really struggles in our environment. 433 00:35:15.859 --> 00:35:18.721 A, for the perm aspect, we're permanent recruitment only. 434 00:35:20.002 --> 00:35:24.645 But B, the transaction and the type of work that they're doing is just so different. 435 00:35:24.665 --> 00:35:26.046 So that tends to not work. 436 00:35:27.487 --> 00:35:29.489 So we will look at recruitment as a background. 437 00:35:30.710 --> 00:35:32.091 And then also sales professionals. 438 00:35:32.171 --> 00:35:33.772 So if we're getting somebody coming from... 439 00:35:34.352 -->

00:35:44.248 You know, an A&D spec rep from a building materials company or, you know, somebody with a good hustle and a sales kind of push that works with us as well. 440 00:35:44.661 --> 00:35:49.625 We do have that technical side of our business, the one that Shauna runs. 441 00:35:49.665 --> 00:35:55.570 She's got a master's in urban planning or something like that already. 442 00:35:56.311 --> 00:36:04.078 And a number of the people that we have in the team and are hiring into the team are coming from a technical perspective. 443 00:36:04.718 --> 00:36:05.418 background. 444 00:36:06.498 --> 00:36:16.681 And, you know, the difficulty is getting the technical understanding, but the soft skills and the motivation and drive to chase commission. 445 00:36:16.741 --> 00:36:28.683 But, you know, it is a harder market to recruit into than maybe the sales roles that we work, you know, which is predominantly our building material side of our businesses. 446 00:36:29.443 --> 00:36:31.724 And more straightforward, I think you'd, you'd, 447 00:36:32.784 --> 00:36:38.372 you know, the more stereotyped recruiter can step into that without that technical knowledge. 448 00:36:38.452 --> 00:36:44.080 Whereas, you know, with the architecture, design, engineering, yeah, it's quite niche. 449 00:36:44.816 --> 00:36:45.636 That makes sense. 450 00:36:46.297 --> 00:36:50.979 So let's zoom out then to culture again. 451 00:36:50.999 --> 00:36:53.040 You mentioned non-negotiables. 452 00:36:53.720 --> 00:36:55.501 One of those was the Friday meeting. 453 00:36:55.561 --> 00:36:57.722 So that creates the cohesion of the team. 454 00:36:57.963 --> 00:36:59.643 People learn each other's origin stories. 455 00:36:59.663 --> 00:37:04.666 They exchange knowledge, best practices, tips and tricks, you said. 456 00:37:06.527 --> 00:37:08.248 What are the other non-negotiables? 457 00:37:09.088 --> 00:37:10.890 So there's a few things. 458 00:37:11.250 --> 00:37:16.074 Um, we're not a bums on seat agency by any stretch of the imagination. 459 00:37:16.094 --> 00:37:18.497 Um, you know, I, I, 460 00:37:19.488 --> 00:37:38.115 we've mentioned where we come from, that big global organization that would lean heavily into it terms and conditions and never move one inch from what was signed on a document is quite different from the culture that we have and relationship with our clients. 461 00:37:38.195 --> 00:37:39.036 Like, you know, 462 00:37:40.557 --> 00:37:53.145 If the situation is that we've made a big placement, they've paid us 40 grand to find someone and that person hasn't worked out and it's a day after their guarantee. 463 00:37:54.655 --> 00:37:55.416 what are you going to do? 464 00:37:55.696 --> 00:38:04.921 You're either going to stick to your terms and conditions like the big global and just not care, or you're going to care, talk to them about the situation. 465 00:38:05.161 --> 00:38:06.842 They may be a day over. 466 00:38:06.883 --> 00:38:09.784 You're probably, well, we are giving them that. 467 00:38:09.824 --> 00:38:11.705 We're saying, no, look, we'll look after you. 468 00:38:12.086 --> 00:38:12.926 Don't worry about it. 469 00:38:13.186 --> 00:38:15.408 But if it's two months after 470 00:38:16.268 --> 00:38:25.114 Maybe you have a conversation and say, listen, this is beyond terms, but you're 40 grand into this and you've got no one sat on that seat. 471 00:38:25.214 --> 00:38:26.855 So let's talk about that. 472 00:38:26.895 --> 00:38:27.995 Maybe we split a fee. 473 00:38:28.035 --> 00:38:30.017 Maybe we talk about future business. 474 00:38:30.417 --> 00:38:34.519 There's always a negotiation, but the important thing is looking after the relationship. 475 00:38:35.040 --> 00:38:40.103 And we can't ever have a bums on seat recruiter because we actually – 476 00:38:40.803 --> 00:38:45.487 you know, it's massive on niche, but actually it's tiny as well. 477 00:38:45.507 --> 00:38:47.449 Like they all know each other. 478 00:38:47.469 --> 00:38:49.831 Like they all go to the same trade shows. 479 00:38:49.891 --> 00:38:55.816 There's kind of a, you know, a route that they all follow around and see each other all the time. 480 00:38:56.156 --> 00:38:57.017 So you do wonderful, 481 00:38:57.657 --> 00:39:02.241 one thing bad to one person, you're dead in the industry, like literally. 482 00:39:02.421 --> 00:39:10.408 And so, you know, we've built a business based on longevity of relationship and doing what we promise and delivering on that. 483 00:39:11.249 --> 00:39:23.400 And so culturally, we just can't abide by a consultant making bad decisions, like pushing a candidate that, you know, you can push a candidate into a job and they can get that job. 484 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:23.580 But 485 00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:26.423 The candidate won't be happy and the client won't be happy. 486 00:39:26.884 --> 00:39:30.268 And ultimately, it's going to fall down like a pack of cards, right? 487 00:39:30.288 --> 00:39:34.273 Like, so you've got to have that mentality. 488 00:39:34.353 --> 00:39:37.897 So yeah, that's a non- That's where the integrity piece is so huge for us to be hiring. 489 00:39:37.917 --> 00:39:38.758 Right, yeah. 490 00:39:39.018 --> 00:39:39.598 Interesting. 491 00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:40.019 Okay. 492 00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:41.219 So this is all making sense. 493 00:39:41.700 --> 00:39:55.808 What, is there anything else that you guys are doing that you think is different or special regarding building that culture where people are performing, but they're, you know, in working independently? 494 00:39:57.449 --> 00:40:00.291 I would like to talk about this on your podcast because... 495 00:40:02.452 --> 00:40:04.753 I will say thank you for your podcast. 496 00:40:05.434 --> 00:40:08.075 I reckon I've listened to nearly everyone. 497 00:40:08.095 --> 00:40:12.258 Shauna will tell you they think I'm a freak. 498 00:40:12.358 --> 00:40:20.142 But the one thing that I've loved about

being an entrepreneur, I've always been a reluctant entrepreneur. 499 00:40:20.162 --> 00:40:23.164 I wasn't born to build a business. 500 00:40:23.244 --> 00:40:27.626 I was never really particularly excited about that idea and kind of fell into this. 501 00:40:27.726 --> 00:40:30.127 But that's another story. 502 00:40:30.468 --> 00:40:30.828 But... 503 00:40:31.188 --> 00:40:37.371 The thing I've taken away is the crazy learning cycle you go on to, right? 504 00:40:37.411 --> 00:40:42.154 At the minute that you decide you're going to do it on your own, there's no other option. 505 00:40:42.174 --> 00:40:44.455 You haven't got someone to teach you everything. 506 00:40:44.755 --> 00:40:51.479 And so you have to go out and hunt for information and your podcast and there's a number of other categories. 507 00:40:51.579 --> 00:40:59.442 kind of similar ones out there of other people giving time from the industry and sitting on and giving advice. 508 00:40:59.522 --> 00:41:07.644 And even if you take away a little smidge of information from one of these podcasts, it's so worthwhile. 509 00:41:08.365 --> 00:41:09.385 So I've loved that. 510 00:41:09.405 --> 00:41:12.966 I've loved getting back into reading and learning. 511 00:41:13.026 --> 00:41:17.788 And I've devoured books in the last five years because I've just had to. 512 00:41:18.488 --> 00:41:22.010 Um, so that, that's been, um, amazing. 513 00:41:22.050 --> 00:41:29.215 But the one thing that I find that is not talked about on any of these podcasts, I've never heard anyone really talk about it. 514 00:41:29.755 --> 00:41:34.318 Um, but we got to a growing pain, um, about, um, 515 00:41:35.863 --> 00:41:38.605 what, 18 months ago, maybe two years ago? 516 00:41:38.625 --> 00:41:39.686 I was going to say like two years. 517 00:41:39.706 --> 00:41:40.506 Yeah. 518 00:41:41.187 --> 00:41:46.030 Where, I don't know what we were at that time, maybe 20 people, something like that. 519 00:41:46.590 --> 00:41:50.913 And we were people managing ourselves. 520 00:41:51.033 --> 00:41:53.315 We were billing ourselves. 521 00:41:53.535 --> 00:42:03.762 We were kind of doing everything and we'd become that bottleneck very much in terms of everything was going through us and it was breaking down. 522 00:42:06.043 --> 00:42:09.064 we were breaking down like very seriously. 523 00:42:10.625 --> 00:42:16.188 So, you know, the route that we went was the EOS route. 524 00:42:16.248 --> 00:42:19.689 I'm not, I'm sure you've, I have heard you talk about it a couple of times. 525 00:42:19.709 --> 00:42:34.016 So it's not like it's a big secret, but I just feel like it isn't talked about enough that, you know, you can put tech systems in, you can put business flow in, but you have to get people systems in. 526 00:42:34.877 --> 00:42:35.177 right. 527 00:42:36.157 --> 00:42:40.298 And, you know, we've learned a lot from that. 528 00:42:40.358 --> 00:42:42.579 It's worked really well for us. 529 00:42:42.659 --> 00:42:45.199 It's positioned us for further growth. 530 00:42:45.619 --> 00:42:50.761 And I think, you know, there aren't that many books on it. 531 00:42:50.901 --> 00:42:57.042 Like, you know, there's the EOS kind of group of books, I would describe them as the e-myth 532 00:42:57.742 --> 00:43:03.986 revisited is a kind of good old school approach to that, but there's not loads of them. 533 00:43:05.768 --> 00:43:23.520 But, and I think until I'd gone through that 20 person bump, I might not have understood, but there is a growing pain that you will have if you're a 10, 15 person business and you're growing that, 534 00:43:24.558 --> 00:43:27.020 Believe me, it's coming and it will hurt. 535 00:43:27.040 --> 00:43:30.022 And it challenges you differently too. 536 00:43:30.302 --> 00:43:33.164 You have to reposition the way you work. 537 00:43:33.925 --> 00:43:41.250 And we changed Steve's role from partner, manager, biller to CEO. 538 00:43:41.650 --> 00:43:46.794 And it's changed a full structure of our company like so, so significantly. 539 00:43:47.314 --> 00:43:49.096 It's made, it's allowed us to breathe. 540 00:43:49.136 --> 00:43:52.218 We've hired other people into the business because he was moved. 541 00:43:52.238 --> 00:43:53.579 And that was a big change for Steve. 542 00:43:54.279 --> 00:43:57.685 Um, because he's a recruiter, really, true and true. 543 00:43:57.845 --> 00:44:02.912 Like, you know, there's still clients that are like, Hey, Steve, can you work on this crazy job for me? 544 00:44:02.992 --> 00:44:06.758 And he's like, well, yeah, but also like, I'm not supposed to. 545 00:44:06.858 --> 00:44:08.641 So it's, it's a big transition. 546 00:44:08.661 --> 00:44:08.761 Yeah. 547 00:44:09.402 --> 00:44:16.868 But it is something to pay attention to as your company is growing because you will get to a point where like you don't have time to do everything. 548 00:44:17.068 --> 00:44:18.069 Something's got to give. 549 00:44:18.129 --> 00:44:25.415 And I think the hardest part of that was like, okay, the job that I've known my whole life is now going to shift to not what it is. 550 00:44:25.816 --> 00:44:29.919 And it's got to be something that maybe I don't love, but I'm going to have to embrace it. 551 00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:32.061 And that was a big shift for us. 552 00:44:32.463 --> 00:44:38.965 And we tried with a consultant first before we kind of found a people operating system. 553 00:44:38.985 --> 00:44:40.725 It doesn't have to be EOS, right? 554 00:44:41.085 --> 00:44:42.465 But it has to be something. 555 00:44:42.485 --> 00:44:55.748 Whereas we had a consultant that was, I would describe it as was putting band-aids on things and was kind of helping one problem at a time, but wasn't like wrapping everything up and going, okay, what is the problem? 556 00:44:55.828 --> 00:44:57.689 Like, why have we got these problems? 557 00:44:57.749 --> 00:45:02.010 And it's the bottlenecking of the partners that everything

can't just go through. 558 00:45:03.070 --> 00:45:04.711 three people because you will break down. 559 00:45:04.751 --> 00:45:09.613 I mean, God only knows what this feels like if you're one person building a business. 560 00:45:09.673 --> 00:45:10.733 I don't know how you could do that. 561 00:45:11.214 --> 00:45:12.774 So I love that you brought this up. 562 00:45:13.074 --> 00:45:13.835 And a lot of... 563 00:45:15.194 --> 00:45:18.275 I'd say quite a few of our clients are on EOS. 564 00:45:18.515 --> 00:45:20.776 And so we've got two different groups. 565 00:45:20.816 --> 00:45:25.898 We've got our solo recruiters and sort of very small business owners. 566 00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:33.942 And then we have our entrepreneurs who are scaling and building like a scalable business that runs without them. 567 00:45:34.542 --> 00:45:36.002 And quite a few of those are... 568 00:45:38.224 --> 00:45:40.085 on EOS as well. 569 00:45:40.646 --> 00:45:53.814 But the part that I'm really interested in is you, you alluded to that, you know, billing and being the partners almost broke you. 570 00:45:53.874 --> 00:45:59.158 And could you elaborate like what, what actually happens? 571 00:46:00.338 --> 00:46:02.120 I think that, 572 00:46:03.098 --> 00:46:13.325 We really, we were servicing our clients and trying to grow the business, trying to hire people at the same time. 573 00:46:13.825 --> 00:46:20.310 And then also, you know, IT, operations, finance. 574 00:46:21.551 --> 00:46:28.516 Thank goodness we hired a VP of finance early on because we were just like, what the heck? 575 00:46:28.536 --> 00:46:31.838 Yeah, we hired a CPA really early because we knew we couldn't do that stuff. 576 00:46:32.258 --> 00:46:34.040 But everything else was going through us. 577 00:46:34.100 --> 00:46:36.282 Everything else was kind of like marketing was like... 578 00:46:36.522 --> 00:46:44.249 So we knew that everything was getting sort of halfway done, and we wanted it to get full, like completely finished. 579 00:46:44.689 --> 00:46:46.831 So it was just... 580 00:46:47.712 --> 00:46:49.073 We were working too many hours. 581 00:46:49.173 --> 00:46:56.718 And I think in the beginning of starting the business, when we were first, you know, figuring out like what we were going to call the business and looking at business names. 582 00:46:56.778 --> 00:47:00.821 And Steve came to the table and he's like, I think we should call it Bamboo. 583 00:47:00.841 --> 00:47:01.961 And he had a little panda logo. 584 00:47:01.981 --> 00:47:03.062 And I was like, heck no. 585 00:47:03.502 --> 00:47:06.624 And then we changed and we looked at some other names. 586 00:47:06.985 --> 00:47:07.825 That was all fun. 587 00:47:07.945 --> 00:47:11.508 We were working so many hours, but it was like exciting. 588 00:47:11.548 --> 00:47:14.590 And then after the second or third year, like, okay. 589 00:47:15.370 --> 00:47:16.791 this isn't exciting anymore. 590 00:47:16.831 --> 00:47:19.312 We

need to switch and have some support. 591 00:47:19.612 --> 00:47:22.013 And you just, you feel it. 592 00:47:22.133 --> 00:47:22.853 You just know. 593 00:47:23.153 --> 00:47:26.115 And then, but we didn't really know what to do at first. 594 00:47:26.195 --> 00:47:28.736 We talked about hiring a COO. 595 00:47:28.796 --> 00:47:36.940 We talked about bringing on, you know, paying 300 grand to somebody to do, we didn't even know what, like we had all these different ideas. 596 00:47:37.100 --> 00:47:41.902 And then Steve was like, everybody needs to read the traction book. 597 00:47:42.622 --> 00:47:43.043 We did. 598 00:47:43.363 --> 00:47:45.325 And then we're like, oh, this is what we do. 599 00:47:45.965 --> 00:47:49.108 And to be fair, we then tried to do it ourselves. 600 00:47:49.806 --> 00:47:50.747 Yeah, right. 601 00:47:51.307 --> 00:47:52.848 Which didn't work. 602 00:47:53.348 --> 00:47:54.789 It was a good learning, actually. 603 00:47:55.129 --> 00:48:02.092 I would actually suggest most people try to do it themselves first on the basis, knowing almost that it probably won't work. 604 00:48:02.713 --> 00:48:10.076 But you kind of need to learn some of the very basics before you start paying someone to teach you those basics properly. 605 00:48:10.096 --> 00:48:14.499 You're probably not sleeping and crying on the weekends because you can't get everything done anyways. 606 00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.080 So you might as well just try and do it on your own and see that. 607 00:48:17.260 --> 00:48:19.683 So it sounds like you guys were pretty stretched. 608 00:48:19.743 --> 00:48:22.567 You were, you know, risk of burnout. 609 00:48:22.968 --> 00:48:25.491 And what was the... 610 00:48:25.751 --> 00:48:31.979 So when did you officially come off a desk, Steve, and step fully into that CEO role? 611 00:48:32.940 --> 00:48:34.042 I'm going to say it was about... 612 00:48:35.732 --> 00:48:40.455 I don't know if it was an official, it was certainly longer than 12 months ago, wasn't it? 613 00:48:40.475 --> 00:48:42.457 About 14 months ago, something like that. 614 00:48:42.977 --> 00:48:48.260 Okay, so here's the question I get asked a lot and I don't know the answer, so I'm gonna ask you guys what you think. 615 00:48:48.780 --> 00:48:51.062 Is when can you come off a desk? 616 00:48:51.442 --> 00:48:55.968 Is it a financial point? 617 00:48:56.810 --> 00:49:07.644 What's the trigger that says, okay, we're now at that tipping point where I need to become the full-time CEO and the billings will come from the rest of the team? 618 00:49:08.365 --> 00:49:10.706 I think it comes down to your profit line, doesn't it? 619 00:49:11.066 --> 00:49:13.267 I think that's the reality. 620 00:49:13.287 --> 00:49:25.331 You've got to be comfortable with a profit line that you can live on and understand that you're investing into your business over that next period of time. 621 00:49:25.351 --> 00:49:30.733 But you can't be worried about your personal income and do this. 622 00:49:31.013 --> 00:49:31.653 You can't do it. 623 00:49:31.713 --> 00:49:32.754 It's the same as the... 624 00:49:34.118 --> 00:49:41.581 the billing manager that, you know, always prioritizes making money for themselves over looking after the consultant. 625 00:49:41.601 --> 00:49:45.123 It's just a, it's a bigger level of the same thing, right? 626 00:49:45.183 --> 00:49:51.086 You've gotta be in a financially secure place in order to afford it. 627 00:49:51.186 --> 00:49:54.127 So I think it's as simple as looking at UP&L. 628 00:49:54.367 --> 00:49:56.848 Yeah, like we pay Steve, just so. 629 00:49:56.888 --> 00:49:58.269 Oh yeah, I just paid, that's it. 630 00:49:58.309 --> 00:49:59.569 No, I don't do it for charity. 631 00:50:02.207 --> 00:50:03.669 We do give him, sorry. 632 00:50:03.769 --> 00:50:06.351 But I will, I just want to note on that too. 633 00:50:06.591 --> 00:50:12.536 I think mentally you have to be ready to get away from that desk because it doesn't happen immediately. 634 00:50:12.876 --> 00:50:16.259 It still takes a few months to be like, okay, this guy called me. 635 00:50:16.279 --> 00:50:17.560 I've got to send him over here. 636 00:50:17.600 --> 00:50:18.801 This client is here. 637 00:50:19.242 --> 00:50:20.363 Mentally just do it. 638 00:50:20.683 --> 00:50:23.045 Take on the challenge and say, okay, desk is done. 639 00:50:23.245 --> 00:50:24.847 I'm moving into a new position now. 640 00:50:26.748 --> 00:50:29.691 And that takes a little bit of time, I think, to get to. 641 00:50:30.071 --> 00:50:34.695 I mean, I think sooner or later it has to happen if you want to scale something, right? 642 00:50:34.715 --> 00:50:36.376 Because you're always going to be the bottleneck. 643 00:50:36.857 --> 00:50:39.919 And I think there is a ceiling. 644 00:50:39.979 --> 00:50:45.444 And it's probably – I think it is probably about 20 people actually. 645 00:50:45.524 --> 00:50:47.646 Like it might be less than that. 646 00:50:47.706 --> 00:50:50.028 But would you guys have three partners? 647 00:50:50.088 --> 00:50:50.648 Three partners. 648 00:50:50.688 --> 00:50:50.989 Yes. 649 00:50:51.029 --> 00:50:51.589 Three founders. 650 00:50:51.649 --> 00:50:55.532 So I think for a one person, the number is probably less than that. 651 00:50:55.592 --> 00:50:56.613 But for three of you – 652 00:50:57.652 --> 00:51:10.441 You get to that point where in order to really grow and somebody needs to be the CEO and not be the biller. 653 00:51:10.581 --> 00:51:14.464 So the financial, the number is a good point. 654 00:51:14.544 --> 00:51:19.287 Have you guys read Greg Crabtree, Simple Numbers, Straight Talk, Big Profits? 655 00:51:19.628 --> 00:51:19.808 No. 656 00:51:19.828 --> 00:51:19.928 No. 657 00:51:20.268 --> 00:51:20.988 But I'm writing it down. 658 00:51:21.028 --> 00:51:21.929 Oh, put it on your list. 659 00:51:22.469 --> 00:51:25.951 So this – shout out to Lauren Wu, one of our clients who recommended

it. 660 00:51:26.312 --> 00:51:38.939 And with our Apex Entrepreneurs Mastermind, we have studied it and we've – I've written a whole – I've created a whole fractional CFO in Claude based on that book. 661 00:51:39.419 --> 00:51:42.381 But it looks at things like what is your – 662 00:51:44.102 --> 00:51:45.943 labor efficiency ratio, right? 663 00:51:45.983 --> 00:51:50.486 Which is your, uh, you know, GP per employee. 664 00:51:50.506 --> 00:52:02.394 Uh, and he has recommendations for like what that should be and then how you make decisions based on, you know, those numbers. 665 00:52:02.494 --> 00:52:11.920 So it's quite interesting, uh, looking at it, having something a little bit more than gut feel, having real kind of numbers that you can base these decisions on. 666 00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:12.680 But, um, yeah. 667 00:52:14.081 --> 00:52:23.349 Stephen, how then is, Sean has alluded to the fact this was a transition and it was, you know, took some time to make that adjustment. 668 00:52:24.170 --> 00:52:25.751 What does your role look like now? 669 00:52:26.232 --> 00:52:36.821 And what advice do you have for other owners who are contemplating, you know, whether or not they should make that transition? 670 00:52:39.095 --> 00:52:43.997 I'm a year in, so I'm not going to be sat here loading it up, telling people how to do this. 671 00:52:44.697 --> 00:52:45.397 I'm learning. 672 00:52:46.118 --> 00:52:46.798 I'm learning. 673 00:52:47.938 --> 00:52:54.740 The big advantage to it is that I've had a finger in every single one of these pies. 674 00:52:54.860 --> 00:52:59.362 So I know quite a lot about our finance, our marketing, our business. 675 00:52:59.842 --> 00:53:01.646 recruiter and how they operate. 676 00:53:01.666 --> 00:53:08.238 Like, so I am in a good position to really understand and pull together that information. 677 00:53:08.339 --> 00:53:11.144 So, um, I think, um, 678 00:53:11.967 --> 00:53:16.950 you have to be prepared that there are parts of the role that you don't particularly enjoy. 679 00:53:17.971 --> 00:53:34.702 I don't think it is impossible that the next kind of evolution of our growth, we will have the more implementer role, the very organized project manager kind of structure, follow-through type person. 680 00:53:35.162 --> 00:53:39.225 I sit more comfortably in the role that's kind of the role 681 00:53:39.965 --> 00:54:05.486 the visionary yes i'm uncomfortable with the title but uh other than that yeah it that works so um yeah that's probably the whole but i think you know you have to build each role as you go and um so right now i'm in i guess two seats um if you're following strictly the eos process um and uh i think you need to be prepared for that because there's stuff that's kind of 682 00:54:06.379 --> 00:54:14.821 boring and grindy and just needs doing and hasn't been done because no one's had any time to do it up until now. 683 00:54:15.581 --> 00:54:17.461 But it's part of the growth. 684 00:54:17.921 --> 00:54:21.602 I don't know, like refreshing all of our training slides. 685 00:54:22.002 --> 00:54:24.843 Like we just don't have someone to do it. 686 00:54:25.363 --> 00:54:29.124 Looking at the tech stack and reworking it and looking at how we 687 00:54:31.104 --> 00:54:32.565 you know, rebuild it. 688 00:54:32.605 --> 00:54:36.447 You know, it's exciting when you build it the first time because it's all new and shiny. 689 00:54:36.887 --> 00:54:43.711 It's kind of less sexy when you rebuild it the second time because you've got to think, well, what replaces that? 690 00:54:43.751 --> 00:54:46.092 And what's the workflow that we've got here? 691 00:54:46.152 --> 00:54:50.054 And how do we, you know, do that with the least kind of interference? 692 00:54:50.114 --> 00:54:50.835 It's messy. 693 00:54:50.975 --> 00:54:52.936 Yeah, it's hard to grind. 694 00:54:53.016 --> 00:54:54.176 Meetings, I think that's another thing. 695 00:54:55.097 --> 00:54:56.598 More meetings, right. 696 00:54:56.958 --> 00:54:57.298 Yeah, yeah. 697 00:54:57.378 --> 00:55:00.301 Well, technically, we're supposed to have less, which we kind of do. 698 00:55:00.341 --> 00:55:02.182 That's the EOS thing. 699 00:55:02.963 --> 00:55:14.093 I will say one thing in EOS, for anyone who is going through that process now, a big transition piece that we tell Steve a lot is to let go of the vine. 700 00:55:14.113 --> 00:55:16.856 Okay, what does that mean? 701 00:55:17.156 --> 00:55:17.737 Meaning... 702 00:55:19.772 --> 00:55:23.538 Whether you want to or you don't, letting go of the things that you know. 703 00:55:23.658 --> 00:55:32.052 So again, moving into a different position is hard, but the hardest part about moving into a new position from an old one is letting go of the old things. 704 00:55:34.896 --> 00:55:36.858 So like, is this Tarzan swinging Steve? 705 00:55:36.898 --> 00:55:38.620 I'm picturing Steven in the loincloth. 706 00:55:39.020 --> 00:55:41.623 Oh, no one wants that. 707 00:55:41.903 --> 00:55:42.183 No. 708 00:55:42.303 --> 00:55:43.305 He's trying to. 709 00:55:43.565 --> 00:55:46.628 So he's grabbed the other vine, but he hasn't let go of the other one. 710 00:55:46.648 --> 00:55:50.853 Yeah, so he's just stuck like kind of like a starfish in the middle of the vines. 711 00:55:50.873 --> 00:55:51.713 Like he's stuck there. 712 00:55:51.733 --> 00:55:52.114 Got it. 713 00:55:52.334 --> 00:55:52.835 I get it. 714 00:55:53.776 --> 00:55:59.304 That is one thing that I think is really important to know when you're moving into something new like that. 715 00:55:59.424 --> 00:56:02.749 Like, even for us, our job, Alex and I still bill. 716 00:56:03.370 --> 00:56:07.496 So that's another big support, too, for having Steve move into this position. 717 00:56:08.197 --> 00:56:10.759 We are two of the top billers in the company. 718 00:56:11.059 --> 00:56:12.359 That's how we started it. 719 00:56:12.419 --> 00:56:18.903 So we're able to still bill

and work with our clients and manage our disciplines and help influence the teams that way. 720 00:56:19.264 --> 00:56:21.125 But we have the managers to manage our team. 721 00:56:21.145 --> 00:56:23.586 So we can be big engines still for the company. 722 00:56:24.126 --> 00:56:30.070 So Steve can do what he needs to do, which is tech stack and having more meetings than he wants to. 723 00:56:30.230 --> 00:56:33.532 Like, I think you had to meet with a payroll software manager. 724 00:56:34.738 --> 00:56:36.939 company last week and he was like, Yahoo. 725 00:56:36.959 --> 00:56:40.020 So I'm like, well, see, I'll go work with my client. 726 00:56:40.721 --> 00:56:46.283 But that part of letting things go is a really hard thing for any person moving into this role. 727 00:56:46.303 --> 00:56:50.485 When you've started something from scratch, it's just a hard thing. 728 00:56:50.845 --> 00:57:03.732 And if we're honest, you know, the evolution again is once we can refill or fill that implementer role, my role should be more client facing and getting out in the market. 729 00:57:03.752 --> 00:57:06.173 I mean, it's what I've done for a living my whole life, right? 730 00:57:06.193 --> 00:57:06.854 I'm good at it. 731 00:57:06.894 --> 00:57:08.215 I can represent our business. 732 00:57:08.695 --> 00:57:12.157 And honestly, I'm probably not doing that right now. 733 00:57:12.237 --> 00:57:14.318 Like that's the next step. 734 00:57:14.838 --> 00:57:39.776 stage you know businesses very much have steps to growth right and uh we're definitely in one whereas you know steve building this role the two girls are building their you know discipline lead roles the managers are in the middle they're really defining in those those roles and we're growing extra managers around them um to allow us to to grow the consultant population and uh 735 00:57:40.316 --> 00:57:40.516 Yeah. 736 00:57:40.916 --> 00:57:42.738 I mean, look, it's fun. 737 00:57:42.978 --> 00:57:51.543 It's interesting to learn so much about scaling a business because no one teaches you this stuff, right? 738 00:57:51.563 --> 00:57:54.345 Yeah, it's so much about what you don't know. 739 00:57:54.365 --> 00:57:56.226 That's the part that's so cool. 740 00:57:56.506 --> 00:57:57.167 You're learning. 741 00:57:57.187 --> 00:57:59.248 Every day. 742 00:57:59.308 --> 00:58:02.150 It's like, yeah, it's a huge... Yeah, sometimes it's annoying. 743 00:58:03.779 --> 00:58:04.439 I love that. 744 00:58:04.700 --> 00:58:06.440 I love, well, I love learning. 745 00:58:06.500 --> 00:58:13.603 And so I'm constantly doing stuff I'm terrible at because I get bored of the stuff that I'm good at already. 746 00:58:14.344 --> 00:58:20.446 Shauna, I'm curious for you, like a lot of founders say that building a business can be isolating. 747 00:58:20.686 --> 00:58:29.390 And so even though you guys have three co-founders, what's been your experience with being the leader? 748 00:58:30.091 --> 00:58:38.443 I found

this to be really important for anyone building a business because it, again, kind of what Steve alluded to, you don't really know who to ask for what. 749 00:58:38.704 --> 00:58:43.751 You don't know, there's no library of like, here's how you start a recruitment business, you know, or a school. 750 00:58:43.791 --> 00:58:45.073 Like you kind of need to... 751 00:58:45.814 --> 00:58:47.075 figure out things on your own. 752 00:58:47.095 --> 00:59:03.011 And when you're leading a team, working with clients, building a business, trying to figure out systems, marketing, and you don't, like, you don't really know what you're doing, trying to find a mentor to kind of help you guide through that is so beneficial. 753 00:59:03.632 --> 00:59:04.733 I have not found one yet. 754 00:59:04.933 --> 00:59:09.398 I don't, we've talked about this, I don't know how many times Steve's, like, we're all trying to look for that. 755 00:59:09.938 --> 00:59:17.643 But the isolation piece is a lot of what you do in your day-to-day for your job, you want to relate with other people. 756 00:59:18.123 --> 00:59:23.466 And when you're in this position, it's so hard to find other people that have been in that spot. 757 00:59:24.387 --> 00:59:26.928 We live in Kelowna, which is kind of a small town. 758 00:59:27.068 --> 00:59:31.111 So it's harder to find those like-minded individuals. 759 00:59:31.671 --> 00:59:35.113 So, you know, we have to look online for people that can kind of 760 00:59:35.613 --> 00:59:42.400 You know, like Steve said, he listens to podcasts or, you know, he has different WhatsApp chats that he's involved in and everything. 761 00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:43.301 I think that helps. 762 00:59:43.881 --> 00:59:45.803 But it is, it's a lonely road. 763 00:59:45.983 --> 00:59:50.668 Like, you're grinding harder than you've ever grinded. 764 00:59:51.008 --> 00:59:55.653 And it's, there's not, you don't know who to kind of talk to about it. 765 00:59:55.733 --> 00:59:55.993 So, yeah. 766 00:59:56.548 --> 01:00:02.791 Well, so many industries have, you know, where owners of businesses get together. 767 01:00:03.191 --> 01:00:11.934 But recruitment's kind of got this really funny, we're competitors, no matter, you know, we don't touch healthcare in a month of Sundays. 768 01:00:11.974 --> 01:00:12.915 We never will. 769 01:00:12.935 --> 01:00:13.615 We never would. 770 01:00:13.635 --> 01:00:13.755 Right. 771 01:00:14.652 --> 01:00:22.294 So the guys running a healthcare recruitment firm, the two of us could get on perfectly well without having this kind of friction. 772 01:00:22.334 --> 01:00:23.655 Whereas- Competition. 773 01:00:23.875 --> 01:00:24.295 I don't know. 774 01:00:24.355 --> 01:00:28.896 Recruitment, I mean, we still get on well with the guy that we used to work with. 775 01:00:29.076 --> 01:00:32.957 And, you know, to some degree, I use that as a relationship. 776 01:00:32.977 --> 01:00:34.838 We've got a couple of other guys we know that, 777 01:00:35.178 --> 01:00:37.781 historically have worked with and have set up their own firm. 778 01:00:37.841 --> 01:00:40.665 So we've got our own kind of personal network on that. 779 01:00:40.765 --> 01:00:46.331 But yeah, I think that that's a missing link in recruitment. 780 01:00:46.452 --> 01:00:51.257 And I'm not going to pitch my program, even though you've set it up very nicely here for me, but yeah, 781 01:00:52.098 --> 01:01:03.689 What I will say is community and having a peer network is so valuable, but they have to be of the right mindset. 782 01:01:03.869 --> 01:01:12.637 And you alluded to the fact recruiters tend to be highly competitive and therefore a bit guarded. 783 01:01:12.797 --> 01:01:12.977 Yeah. 784 01:01:14.679 --> 01:01:19.883 The stereotype is you meet someone you used to work with at another agency and you're like, oh, how's business? 785 01:01:19.963 --> 01:01:21.524 Oh, business is fantastic. 786 01:01:21.584 --> 01:01:26.268 It's always you've got a facade that you don't let the other person in. 787 01:01:26.849 --> 01:01:31.593 And so I'm really proud that we've built a community where people are... 788 01:01:32.213 --> 01:01:40.520 very open, sharing ideas, best practices, challenges, trying to support and help each other. 789 01:01:40.940 --> 01:01:44.743 And that's quite rare, I think. 790 01:01:44.964 --> 01:01:56.113 And so however you find that, whether it's with our group or whether it's with some other peer group, I think that makes a huge, huge difference. 791 01:01:56.373 --> 01:01:56.673 Mm-hmm. 792 01:01:56.833 --> 01:02:10.884 So, Sean, hey, Stephen, before you were online here, Sean and I were chatting, and I understand you guys are like bonkers busy at the moment, sounding like it's going to be a fantastic quarter for you. 793 01:02:12.405 --> 01:02:13.666 What's the vision going forward? 794 01:02:14.367 --> 01:02:15.648 I think... 795 01:02:17.620 --> 01:02:24.550 He hesitates on this because I think we're getting to our goals quicker than we potentially realized we were going to. 796 01:02:26.212 --> 01:02:32.641 We had 600 grand written down for our first year and we did 1.9 million in our first year. 797 01:02:32.761 --> 01:02:33.602 So it's like... 798 01:02:34.504 --> 01:02:36.646 And it's kind of that all the way along. 799 01:02:36.786 --> 01:02:46.517 So in all honesty, the three partners, we're getting together and defining tenure. 800 01:02:46.957 --> 01:02:51.622 At the moment, I will say there are two different things here, you know. 801 01:02:52.183 --> 01:02:55.645 planning the best for the business is really, really important. 802 01:02:56.025 --> 01:02:57.146 We've always stuck to that. 803 01:02:57.246 --> 01:02:59.127 No matter what, it's not about us. 804 01:02:59.207 --> 01:03:02.149 It's about what is the best decision for the business. 805 01:03:02.249 --> 01:03:10.714 Because yes, currently our goal is to get to a point where the business is running and operating without

us. 806 01:03:11.514 --> 01:03:12.955 That's not anytime soon. 807 01:03:13.335 --> 01:03:16.897 Yeah, so in terms of the 10-year plan, there's two things. 808 01:03:16.917 --> 01:03:26.061 So number one, we've got to focus on the business, and we've always been really good at prioritizing the business over our own requirements. 809 01:03:27.022 --> 01:03:37.006 And so in terms of the business, the opportunity is just ginormous, and it's a robbery not to take advantage of the opportunity we have. 810 01:03:37.427 --> 01:03:40.648 We have the opportunity to get into the U.S. 811 01:03:40.748 --> 01:03:41.829 It's really a tax bill. 812 01:03:42.349 --> 01:03:43.390 challenge at the moment. 813 01:03:43.430 --> 01:03:49.176 As soon as we get the tax set up, we're going to have boots on the ground in the US and get off to that market. 814 01:03:49.216 --> 01:03:55.983 We already take a big chunk out of that market, but we know we can get in there and grow. 815 01:03:56.003 --> 01:03:56.724 The 816 01:03:58.285 --> 01:04:07.933 obviously continuing to scale, there is a benefit to all of us to become the household name in each of our industry verticals. 817 01:04:08.013 --> 01:04:16.059 And so people kind of go to you and we've got that to some degree, but we really want to bed into that. 818 01:04:16.119 --> 01:04:16.280 So, 819 01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:19.562 business-wise is almost really quite easy. 820 01:04:19.642 --> 01:04:23.505 Continue scaling, get after US, probably Mexico as well. 821 01:04:24.787 --> 01:04:30.511 In terms of personal, we do need to get to a point where the business is running without us. 822 01:04:31.552 --> 01:04:40.920 And so, you know, that's a case of slowly building the right structures in a business so that we can exit, so that we've got succession plan coming through, so that 823 01:04:41.480 --> 01:04:47.246 you know, testing it, allowing it to show that it can do those things before we get there. 824 01:04:47.987 --> 01:04:50.449 So, you know, that's a relatively long term. 825 01:04:50.489 --> 01:04:55.114 But as I say, we've kind of been always ahead of the curve in terms of our goals. 826 01:04:55.274 --> 01:04:57.777 So we do need to be thinking about those. 827 01:04:57.857 --> 01:05:03.563 And honestly, in between there, there's a bit of a speed bump of technology that we need to 828 01:05:04.203 --> 01:05:08.504 get the tech stack redefined and rebuilt. 829 01:05:08.624 --> 01:05:14.146 So I'm probably going to get smashed by all the salespeople and tech. 830 01:05:14.266 --> 01:05:15.407 Oh, you need new tech. 831 01:05:18.127 --> 01:05:18.988 Cut that bit out. 832 01:05:21.500 --> 01:05:21.840 All right. 833 01:05:22.300 --> 01:05:33.365 One final question before you go, because I know Steve mentioned earlier that he's reading voraciously and, you know, the learning curve when you're an entrepreneur is huge. 834 01:05:33.525 --> 01:05:36.246 And I know a lot of our listeners are big readers as well. 835 01:05:36.946 --> 01:05:38.647 I gave you guys Greg Crabtree. 836 01:05:39.608 --> 01:05:42.329 What book can you recommend to me in return? 837 01:05:42.649 --> 01:05:43.009 Shauna? 838 01:05:43.532 --> 01:05:51.099 One of my favorite authors, her name is Vanessa Van Edwards. 839 01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:55.963 She does a lot on conversation and how to have conversation in cues. 840 01:05:56.043 --> 01:05:57.144 She actually is coming out. 841 01:05:57.204 --> 01:05:59.606 She just released her book called Conversation. 842 01:05:59.966 --> 01:06:01.608 So I haven't read it, but I'm going to. 843 01:06:01.968 --> 01:06:09.294 But her book called Cues, it's the master of science and how to interact with people. 844 01:06:10.195 --> 01:06:10.916 It's amazing. 845 01:06:10.956 --> 01:06:11.416 It's soup. 846 01:06:11.457 --> 01:06:16.902 We've used it, a couple of those little snippets of her videos in training. 847 01:06:17.963 --> 01:06:21.206 But she does a lot of like how to interview and how to interact with people. 848 01:06:21.306 --> 01:06:32.236 And so it's not, I really enjoy it because it helped me when I was managing my team on how to help people interview and talk to clients and be confident in the way that they speak. 849 01:06:32.997 --> 01:06:33.157 Yeah. 850 01:06:34.098 --> 01:06:36.701 I haven't read one on, I don't really have one on leadership. 851 01:06:36.741 --> 01:06:38.462 That was my favorite one for that. 852 01:06:38.542 --> 01:06:40.304 And the one that I wanted to mention. 853 01:06:40.324 --> 01:06:41.245 Yeah, no, that's great. 854 01:06:41.345 --> 01:06:43.407 I don't, I've not heard of that one. 855 01:06:43.447 --> 01:06:44.788 So I'm definitely going to check that out. 856 01:06:44.948 --> 01:06:45.429 She's great. 857 01:06:45.449 --> 01:06:46.870 Vanessa Van Edwards. 858 01:06:46.990 --> 01:06:47.270 Yes. 859 01:06:47.791 --> 01:06:48.531 Fantastic. 860 01:06:49.252 --> 01:06:50.472 Steve, what about for you? 861 01:06:50.492 --> 01:06:57.735 So my favorite most recently would be Gilbert Anoka's book. 862 01:06:59.115 --> 01:07:02.276 I'm a rugby player, so I'm kind of biased on this. 863 01:07:02.996 --> 01:07:12.879 But it's called Become Unstoppable, and he is the culture coach for the New Zealand All Blacks. 864 01:07:13.680 --> 01:07:14.400 And it's... 865 01:07:15.560 --> 01:07:31.946 incredible advice in terms of driving a high-performance team and building culture and behaviors and kind of nurturing improved performance through culture. 866 01:07:32.566 --> 01:07:38.529 And we run a business that's a whole other conversation, but we are – 867 01:07:40.110 --> 01:07:41.533 anti-KPI. 868 01:07:41.553 --> 01:07:43.155 We don't run KPIs. 869 01:07:43.195 --> 01:07:46.000 We don't push KPIs on our consultants. 870 01:07:47.022 --> 01:07:49.706 And so culture is what we lead with. 871 01:07:50.347 --> 01:07:52.931 And so that has been amazing. 872 01:07:52.951 --> 01:07:53.893 It's an amazing book. 873 01:07:54.377 --> 01:07:56.198 I would love to discuss further. 874 01:07:56.318 --> 01:08:01.262 I could go on for days to learn from you guys and what you've built is really awesome. 875 01:08:02.343 --> 01:08:06.686 So thank you both for sharing your journey so far. 876 01:08:06.786 --> 01:08:11.710 And let's do it again and see what you've learned from the next chapter. 877 01:08:11.750 --> 01:08:12.690 I would love to. 878 01:08:12.970 --> 01:08:13.371 Love to. 879 01:08:13.411 --> 01:08:14.011 Appreciate it. 880 01:08:14.031 --> 01:08:15.012 And thank you for having us. 881 01:08:15.813 --> 01:08:16.153 All right. 882 01:08:16.193 --> 01:08:16.913 Thank you both. 883 01:08:16.953 --> 01:08:18.114 And I'll talk again. 884 01:08:18.134 --> 01:08:18.735 Take care. 885 01:08:18.795 --> 01:08:18.975 Thanks. 886 01:08:21.115 --> 01:08:23.016 What stood out the most for you in this one? 887 01:08:23.456 --> 01:08:27.477 Let me know your biggest takeaway on LinkedIn or in the YouTube comments. 888 01:08:28.117 --> 01:08:33.879 And more importantly, what are the one or two things that you're going to put in practice this week? 889 01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:38.761 If you're getting value from these conversations, do me a favor and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. 890 01:08:39.001 --> 01:08:40.361 I really appreciate you listening. 891 01:08:40.421 --> 01:08:42.362 Make it a great day and I'll see you next time.