התמלול המלא של Ep. 13 - Procrastination: Why It Makes Sense—and What Can Change (Part1)

like diffusion, procrastination. 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:29.360 It tends to there's tends to be like this when you aren't avoiding it, although internally it feels like a buildup of pressure because your subconscious is knowing that you're not doing what you actually should be or want to be. 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:33.279 And so there is like this low grade anxiety, which is pressure, right? 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:46.800 Um and uh so to me, a lack of or where procrastination isn't in um negatively impacting your life, it feels like there's diffusion there. 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.199 So that that's when we do procrastinate, is that right? 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:52.800 Is we feel diffusion? 00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:01.920 No, diffusion to me is like um if you take a pin and you prick a balloon, yeah, and all of a sudden that big pressure starts getting to be relieved. 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.519 Got it, got it. 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:04.480 Okay. 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:12.959 Um, so do you should we talk about um why we procrastinate? 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:17.519 Would that be a good flowy topic to flow to? 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:19.120 Let's flow there. 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.560 But first I wonder, because you talk about this quite a bit. 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:42.319 Procrastination, as we talked about at the beginning, you know, before we even hit record, it can be as something small as I have these Amazon packages that have been sitting there on the dining room table for three weeks, and for some reason I keep procrastinating, right? 00:06:44.240 --> 00:07:04.000 Or bigger, like I have I have I I write for a living, I write as a way to convey messaging that's important so that it's you know, so that people are aware of help that can be out there, and yet I'm finding myself blocked and putting it off and turning to something else, right? 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:32.639 And so to talk about like procrastination in terms of the experience that we have of ourselves as we live our lives, I think is kind of an important way to set this up because then we're gonna be talking about number one, how it has been impacting us, but also ways you're gonna we're both gonna offer ways to think about it differently so that it feels like an approachable thing where it doesn't have to be a permanent part of our lives. 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:38.720 And here um here's a quote that I thought that I might lean in, and then I definitely would like to turn it over to you. 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:54.800 It's from Stephen Pressfield, and I think it might give a little bit of um of a way to yeah, a way to to uh think of this ahead of time. 00:07:57.680 --> 00:07:58.800 Let's do it. 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.360 So the quote that I have from Stephen Pressfield is from his book, The War of Art. 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.120 You might be familiar with him. 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.360 He is basically the one who coined the term the resistance, right? 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:10.560 That many of us feel. 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:20.720 And I think the resistance or resistance could be that emotional component that you were you were mentioning at the beginning of the conversation that um often accompanies procrastination. 00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:27.920 His quote is this most of us have two lives, the life we live and the unlived life within us. 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.199 And between the two stands resistance. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:36.960 And I would also say aka procrastination. 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:54.000 Based on that, would you like to move into maybe a good working definition of procrastination so that we can look at it actually um really see what it is? 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:59.600 Because actually one of the examples that I gave actually may not be procrastination. 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:11.600 Yeah, I think uh procrastination is putting off what you intend to do until a later time. 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:18.240 So, in the model which we described in episode 10, uh it would be in the A-line. 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:31.279 Procrastination would be in action in terms of when you had set aside time to wash the dishes or write the assignment, procrastination would not would be not doing that. 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:36.639 And can you tell me which example do you think did was not a reflection of procrastination? 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.399 Because I think that it's very valuable. 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:39.279 Yes. 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.360 Um, I think I gave the example of the Amazon packages just now, off the cuff. 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.639 And even as I was saying it, I said, I'm not sure that it is. 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:58.240 Because procrastination, as you said, the act of delaying or postponing tasks, despite knowing that doing so is actually gonna create negative consequences. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:02.159 So the negative consequences part, I think, is missing from Amazon. 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:06.320 Unless you're like, okay, well, I'm not gonna get my, I need to get it returned within 30 days. 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:08.159 I'm not gonna get my refund, right? 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:09.840 Maybe that's the case. 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:33.519 So I think there could be something to be said for in the very beginning, helping people just actually draw a distinction from what is actually procrastinating, in which case it you're doing something else, you're avoiding the thing that you want to do, despite knowing that avoiding doing it or delaying it is going to create secondary or negative negative consequences down the line. 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.360 Wait, can you can you replay for me the actual Amazon example? 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:38.480 Let me just track it. 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:40.080 And then I like your definition. 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:47.519 I just want to explore that a little bit more because you added a little something to it that I didn't think about, what's the negative

consequences? 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:53.759 So replay the Amazon example so I can understand that there are no negative consequences, I guess, is what you're saying in that one. 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:56.080 Well, okay. 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:03.360 So technically, I mean, technically, I suppose there could be negative consequences, right? 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.279 You don't return the packages within 30 days like you're supposed to. 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:09.519 Therefore, you don't get your refund. 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:09.919 Yes. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.399 And so maybe, maybe you're maybe you're right. 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:16.000 Maybe it is procrastinating and doing that, and therefore you don't get your refund. 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:22.720 Um, I guess what I was thinking was that it is not some things are some tasks you're just delaying. 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:25.039 Maybe another example could be Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:25.360 Yeah. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.159 People might say, Oh, I've been procrastinating, cleaning up my garage for months now, right? 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:46.720 And then I suppose in that case, if it has a very negative consequence because winter is coming and you need to park your car inside the garage, and then winter comes and you didn't do it, and now all of a sudden it has negative consequences, not just for yourself or other people, that could be procrastinating. 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:56.240 But if that never happens, if it's just something that you said you'd do and there necessarily isn't that negative consequence, then um maybe that's not procrastination. 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.639 Maybe that's just you decided to use your time differently instead of the garage. 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:12.799 Now, if you're gonna spend that time beating yourself up for it and making it an identity thing, like here's another thing I said I was gonna do, and I'm not gonna do it, of course, then it has that negative consequence of continually providing using it as an example. 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:13.279 Yeah. 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:14.799 Okay, I got you. 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:15.679 I'm following you. 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.399 And this is this is interesting because you and I have not talked about this, um, which is good. 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:32.080 Um, I I gave the definition I did because it did not have the negative consequences attached, but I can understand why procrastination would could lead to negative consequences. 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:43.600 For example, I mentioned or, you know, I I have um when I was an undergraduate student, a tendency to put off my writing assignments until the last minute. 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:48.879 I just like writer's block, this is hard, there's a lot of material to cover, uh, whatever it is. 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.480 And so I went to the computer lab. 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:53.120 This is the days before you had your own computer. 00:12:53.679

--> 00:13:04.080 And then I remember uh writing the whole thing in the last minute, and then the negative consequence, Carrie, is I had forgotten to save that paper and I lost everything. 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:05.200 Oh my goodness. 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.360 So procrastination can lead to a negative consequence. 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:16.240 Whether you or not you want to include that as part of the definition, I think is I'm I'm I'm that's fair, that's a fair question to consider. 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.279 But certainly there can be negative consequences. 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:24.000 And I'm trying to point out and support your assertion there that there can definitely be negative consequences. 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:37.519 But you're I think what you're saying is that maybe in your definition, procrastination is recognizing that there could be, or is that that's part of your definition, is that there's negative consequences to procrastination. 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:42.080 Um yes, but also that's what Google said. 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:44.000 Google. 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:51.759 Well, and here's and here's the reason why here's the reason why I went there is for exactly this this reason that you and I are talking. 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:59.039 The words that we use um have a great impact on the way that we perceive ourselves. 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:05.200 And and sometimes then we turn those words that we use um into identity labels. 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:05.600 Yeah. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:11.840 So sometimes it's just really useful just to make sure that we're using words that actually mean what they mean. 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.279 And then we can say, okay, wait a second, actually, there's no negative delay. 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.519 I just decided I don't want to clean up my garage now. 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:20.159 Maybe it's not important, there's no negative consequences. 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:21.840 Was I really procrastinating? 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:30.480 Maybe I can take that off my carry procrastinates list and just say, no, I'm decided that I'll do it in the summer or I will revisit this next summer, right? 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:30.799 Yeah. 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:32.480 If that's something I want to do. 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:42.639 But if you're a procrastinating, it's usually you're like you said at the beginning of the conversation, it's there is um it invokes an emotion when you think of a thing. 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:49.759 And it it triggers an avoidance response. 00:14:50.960 --> 00:15:06.960 And that avoidance response, if carried over time, creates negative consequences, and you feel that negative, you feel that awareness of a negative consequence down the line in the present moment, yet you still avoid. 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:16.159 Yeah, it's probably now a good time to talk about why we're procrastinate, and then we can come back to your Google definition and assess if that's what we want to stick with, right? 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.480 Is the the consequences, you know. 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:30.720 We um Brooke Castillo says that procrastination is delaying what we intend to do, and most often it's because we want to avoid a negative emotion. 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:44.080 And uh I think that so that makes it a cognitive problem in her mind, because what we learned about in episode 10 with the model is that all emotions, all feelings come from thoughts. 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:47.519 That's why I say it's cognitive, because feelings come from thoughts. 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:53.360 I'll give an example here, and then I do want to go to another concept that she talks about, that's the motivational triad. 00:15:53.519 --> 00:16:13.360 But I've been having um when I used to write medium articles and my newsletter, it was very easy for me to just man, I I'm stuck and I go to YouTube, right? 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:17.360 So what's the emotion that's coming up for me? 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:24.320 Um and I think the emotion could be many things. 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:25.840 So one would be frustrated. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.320 I'm frustrated because I can't think of the next sentence. 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.399 This should be easier, right? 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:51.200 And so if my feeling of frustration is what I'm trying to avoid when I'm procrastinating, YouTube is the action I take, but the relief I'm trying to get from YouTube is is what I'm seeking here. 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.879 So um relief from the feeling of frustration. 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:55.519 That's right. 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:57.759 Based on the thought, this should be easier. 00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:58.879 I think so. 00:16:58.960 --> 00:16:59.360 Thank you. 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.799 Yes, thought like this, writing this should be easier. 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:27.039 Um now it's interesting because um sometimes, and this was when I was preparing for this podcast, and I was writing my notes for this podcast, and it wasn't necessarily about um this should be easier leading to frustration. 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.160 I think I was just sometimes I just get bored. 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:31.359 You know what I'm saying? 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:38.559 Like, yeah, and like I'm and and I think my thought was like there could be something more fun I'm doing, and it led to the same action. 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.519 The action you can call procrastination or YouTube, right? 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:47.599 Which is which is or YouTube, or you're gonna be synonymous with procrastination, exactly, right? 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:49.680 And meaning it's become a habit, right? 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:52.720 That brings in James Clear's things, and we could talk about that. 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:59.279 But what Brooks says, it's not a time management issue, procrastination. 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:02.400 We're trying to avoid certain feelings. 00:18:02.559 -->

00:18:05.839 I want to give one more example to just drive it home. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:21.200 I was uh coaching a client named Jane, and she was given an assignment to write, but the assignment had no deadline, so there's no external pressure for her to finish it. 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.960 She interviewed the people, and then she just sat on it. 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.880 And during the coaching call, she goes, I don't know why, I just can't write this thing. 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:37.440 And what we examined was she had a whole collection of thoughts that was preventing her from writing it. 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:44.400 For example, she had interviewed uh the patient and then felt guilty that she was taking so long. 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:52.880 She felt regret that the doctor had moved on and she could no longer like, like, oh, what's the point? 00:18:52.960 --> 00:19:04.319 I'm not even going to be able to, you know, write this story in such a way that the doctor is going to be able to see a finished product, but because that doctor's already left. 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:09.920 So there's a whole host of negative feelings, and that's exactly why she was procrastinating. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.160 She wanted to avoid those feelings of guilt and regret. 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:20.400 Now, I guess I'll just continue to the quote-unquote solution here. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:33.039 If the root cause is, you know, feelings, and we want to avoid feelings, and therefore we procrastinate, and the thought is like I feel I feel terrible about doing this. 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:38.640 She came up with a different thought, and the thought was I can do hard things. 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:44.640 And I can do hard things is there's a certain sense of pride in that. 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.559 And the next day she finished her project. 00:19:48.799 --> 00:20:01.839 So that's a clear example of the model at work, how procrastination can be solved at a cognitive level, understanding the feelings you feel and the thought. 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.599 But I I wanted to, I guess, if I can shift, Carrie, and you can shift. 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:06.640 Yeah, please do. 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:07.519 Yeah. 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:23.759 The idea of negative consequences, and and you know, I I don't know what our if our brain thinks that far in terms of negative consequences, meaning I just went to YouTube, right? 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.279 Because I was trying to find relief. 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:36.240 And I'm not sure I was conscious of negative consequences, but I do know another of Brooke's ideas here I think normalizes procrastination. 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:45.039 And I think it's important that we know that it's not like somebody's out there saying, ah, I don't procrastinate. 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.759 I think a lot of people are familiar with this idea of procrastination. 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:54.240 I looked up some statistics and uh

it was done uh on a group of students in 2014. 00:20:54.319 --> 00:21:00.079 I get a sense that students in 2026 care are very similar to students in 2014, undergraduate students. 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:04.960 So I think this study still applies, but 87% said they procrastinate. 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:10.799 Now, I don't know the superhero who are the 13% who don't procrastinate. 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:12.079 I was not one of them. 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:20.960 Um, but also another study by a um psychologist showed that 20% are chronic procrastinators. 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.240 So this suggests that this is just a normal behavior. 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:32.160 And Brooke tries to explain this framework of why it's normal using something called the motivational triad, which is what I want to bring in here. 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.759 Um, number one, we seek pleasure. 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:41.279 Uh in that case, for me, I guess it would be YouTube, right, instead of writing. 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.039 Two is we avoid pain. 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.799 Like it's hard, frustrating, right? 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:50.799 The pain of the feelings is something you want to avoid. 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:55.200 So you avoid that pain and you you lower your energy. 00:21:55.359 --> 00:22:02.240 So it's much easier, it's very frictionless to do YouTube instead of writing and Really thinking hard about the next sentence. 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:08.000 So I think that is a great framework. 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:27.119 And a framework, if you can understand why our human brains procrastinate because it's normal, then we can eventually understand that we're going to need to reverse the motivational triad in order to not procrastinate. 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.880 So we can get to that later. 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.240 But is there anything else you want to talk about related to the motivational triad? 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:43.839 Because I just think that is a nice, maybe just makes me feel a little bit that people can understand themselves, that kind of we were built to do that, to survive. 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.240 We couldn't expend much energy. 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:58.079 Um and pain could be death, it could be lots of other things that lead to death, but and and pleasure is how we reproduce, how we survive as a species. 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:14.799 So prehistorically, it made sense for us to do these things, but we know in order to evolve and to do the things which would not endanger us in terms of these consequences you're talking about, we would have to start thinking differently in terms of the motivational triad. 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:48.720 Yeah, no, I'm so glad that that was on your list that you really wanted to bring up because when I first heard that on Brooke Castillo's podcast several years ago, it really helped me to number one, reduce the shame from my procrastination tendencies in certain areas because it allowed me to see what was actually happening at, like you said, both the nervous system level and the the cognitive level, it wasn't just Carrie is lazy or Carrie just is incapable. 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.279 There were very real things going on. 00:23:51.519 --> 00:24:26.240 And when you said that, for example, with the motivational triad, if our brain's fundamental purpose or function is to keep us alive, and the way that it has um, the way that it does that is by filtering out all of the inputs that we get for things that help us seek pleasure, avoid pain, and conserve energy, we can look at our present areas where we're procrastinating and kind of check things off. 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.799 Where where is this painful? 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.480 Where does this um feel like it's not pleasurable, right? 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.160 Or um where is this asking more energy than maybe I think that I have? 00:24:38.400 --> 00:25:02.400 So if you talk about the survival benefit of conserving energy, or why our brain would want to try to seek the most efficient thing, which would be I can pick up my phone, turn on YouTube, versus I have um an article that I want to write, and it's going to require cognitive energy to put it into structure and make some salient points and think of the reader. 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:07.039 That's a lot of stuff that your your brain is being asked to do. 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.720 Whereas if you have a phone right next to you, it's much easier to literally tap the YouTube icon. 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:14.880 But what is the survival benefit? 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:33.599 Is that we want the our brain wants us to do or directs us to do the most efficient things because in the most dangerous moments, should we need to flee or should we need to fight, that we have the energy within us to be able to do that. 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:40.720 I think that part is really important, not just that we're trying to just conserve energy, our brain tries to conserve energy. 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:49.759 There is a there is a survival component to it, that when the chips are down and your danger is right there, there is energy stored. 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.039 You haven't used up all your energy. 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.440 There's energy stored within you to be able to use it. 00:25:53.839 --> 00:26:04.720 And I love what you said that nowadays, in modern times, we don't need to be worried that to conserve that energy in case a woolly mammoth comes, right? 00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:05.920 It's a woolly mammoth. 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.519 Or or even in the pioneer days, right? 00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.400 So much that you had to be prepared for. 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:19.920 You had to make sure you had some energy available to, you know, protect yourself and your family from the wild or et cetera. 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:28.400 But in modern times, we don't, well, for some of us, we shouldn't, we shouldn't assume. 00:26:28.480

--> 00:26:39.440 I mean, this is a privileged point of view, we don't have that need to conserve that energy for our everyday physical survival. 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:49.119 And so to reverse the motivational triad would be to tell our brains, I have an energy, I have this energy within me, and I actually want to use it. 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.119 So I can do hard things. 00:26:51.279 --> 00:27:06.079 I want to actually, instead of turning to YouTube, I actually want to focus on this article because I would like to be able to get, you know, the opening paragraph because I know it will lead to the next paragraph and eventually it will lead to completion, which is actually what I deeply desire. 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:11.519 I do not deeply desire to turn to my YouTube app because it's easiest right now. 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:19.279 I want to use the energy, not for, you know, that that was going to be for survival purposes to do this thing. 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:29.759 I guess that's one of the things I really wanted to point out that there is um a reasoning, especially with the energy component, especially when nowadays so many people feel really tired. 00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:31.759 Yeah. 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:42.480 And as we talk about these reasons why we procrastinate, um, I guess number one, to avoid an emotion. 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:58.880 Number two, because our primitive brains were built along the primitive triad motivational triad, because procrastination fills that need to uh seek pleasure, avoid pain, and reduce energy in the ways that you said it. 00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:03.200 That doesn't explain all the different reasons why we procrastinate. 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:11.440 And I think as we were preparing for this call, you came up with some ideas that I wanted to hear more about from you, if you don't mind. 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:13.440 You know, what actually is the problem? 00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:17.039 I think was one of them, um, if I'm saying that correctly. 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:26.240 So if you're tracking with me, and then also uh related to um, I don't know if it's the same or different, the David Allen, the three types of work. 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:28.799 So is is that somewhere you can tell me? 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:39.920 Because there's, you know, we serve a diverse audience, and I just want to be able to kind of tackle all the aspects of what might be behind procrastination. 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:51.599 Um, no, I appreciate that because this is something that I was butting up against as I continued to become skilled with the model and using it, and it was very exciting. 00:28:51.839 --> 00:29:02.160 So if I thought about, let's say, as you mentioned, procrastination in the self-coaching model, if you put that in the A-line as something that I'm doing, I'm procrastinating, or action that I'm not doing. 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:03.519 So it's inaction, right? 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:19.839 Right in the A line,

then you go backwards up it and you say, okay, well, what were you feeling that that led to, that generated, or that created um the inaction or that drove you to procrastinate, right? 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:31.920 Um, and then it might be whatever that emotion is that would lead you to procrastinate versus doing the task that you decided you wanted to do is very informative. 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.359 And then you say, well, what thought created that feeling, right? 00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:38.240 And so I could get actually very good at that. 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:43.920 I could get very good at, for example, um, let's just say procrastinating on my website. 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:49.759 And this will segue into the topics that you just discussed or you asked of me, okay? 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:57.200 So procrastinating on my website, I would constantly write on my timesheet, work on the rebs website from this block, nine to eleven. 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:04.240 And then nine to eleven would pass, and I would say, I would be frustrated because I'm like looking at there's so many decisions to make. 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:08.720 Which ones should I, you know, which ones do I start with? 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:14.319 You think working on website just means you go to your WordPress and you just start working on your website, right? 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:24.480 But as I noticed that I was constantly getting blocked and words were not appearing on the website the way that I wanted, I started doing the model and thinking, okay, what am I feeling? 00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:31.920 I'm feeling um it would be like almost like overwhelmed, paralyzed. 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.400 What is creating that feeling? 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:50.799 And it would be multiple different thoughts, but the first thought to create paralyzed would be I don't even know who I'm actually going to be writing to on the website. 00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:58.079 You and I both know that you can put any kind of website up, and if if if that's a block, then you can definitely start with putting any kind of website up. 00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:59.440 But I already had a website. 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:08.319 The purpose of this revamped website was to create new messaging to more specifically speak to a problem that I saw, right? 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:13.759 And to offer different solutions for that growing problem that I saw. 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.400 But it required multiple decisions. 00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:23.759 So simply writing um work on website wasn't, and then the action wasn't happening. 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:28.880 The question became it's not necessarily like a thinking problem anymore, or what's my thought? 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:40.160 It more becomes if you want to do this action of getting the website done, do you even know what that would look like? 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.319 What would done look like for you? 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:44.640 And you think it's the

website would be complete. 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:51.119 In order to have the website complete, though, what actually what decisions need to be made? 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:52.640 What things are blocking you? 00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:00.720 And so I started writing a list of of have I given myself permission to actually decide I'm gonna move this a certain way? 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:10.319 The other thing was um which I was going to use Wix or WordPress, and I thought Wix would be much easier, but I was just struggling, but I knew WordPress better. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:19.200 And so it became but like, but I I bought the domain on on Wix, but I know WordPress, and this other one's supposed to be more intuitive, but there's a learning curve and I don't have time. 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:27.279 And I would just stay frozen and I would procrastinate because there were decisions that needed to be made and I wasn't making them. 00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:36.799 The other thing would be um, do you know how to do the thing that you say that you're procrastinating on? 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:49.039 And so sometimes the question was um, for example, with the Wix versus WordPress, I was trying to work on the website on Wix, I just didn't know how to do it. 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:56.400 And so I could make part of what to do that day in that block, learn how to build website on Wix. 00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:01.440 But what I really wanted was to be able to have it completed, period. 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.279 The fastest way to completion. 00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:05.759 And that to me, the decision had to be made. 00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:10.960 We're gonna ditch Wix for now, and we're going to just rebuild on the present website. 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:15.839 Now that I have one decision made, it makes it easier when I say work on the website. 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.160 At least I know which where I'm gonna be working on. 00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:37.200 And it was just a series of those decisions that made you realize that it wasn't necessarily just um, it wasn't just necessarily I knew what was paralyzing me, but yet I had to keep I had to keep distilling it down. 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:49.519 That reminds me of um a concept in the book Essentialism on how to break through procrastination or when you get stuck. 00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.680 He calls it the WIN uh acronym, what's important now. 00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:00.400 And it kind of you kind of went through that decision-making process with me right now in terms of what's important now. 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.759 Well, the first thing that's important is what platform am I gonna use. 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:08.159 Uh, I want to get it done now, so I'm gonna use WordPress, right? 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:09.280 Because I'm familiar with it. 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:11.920 And you just tackled it like that. 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:17.760 Um, that helps me too, in terms of getting moving through things. 00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:28.800 I think also, I wonder if we could apply um the four laws of behavior change from atomic habits, because I want to test it with you. 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:56.400 What it sounds like to me is the difference between work on websites and perhaps getting more specific, deciding between Wix and WordPress is for me number three, um, which is make it make it simpler or make it simple. 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:03.119 Work on website is a is hard, it's vague, it's nebulous. 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:12.159 But to simplify things, we ask a better question, and that is at the response level, like this is what I'm gonna do. 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:21.679 I didn't know what you thought about that, but it sounded felt to me like uh rule number three, you you simplify the decision-making process by asking a better question. 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:26.719 Yeah, I think that it's a really powerful way to look at that. 00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:38.639 What I think about when I think of the Q craving response reward, which is the four-part habit loop from atomic habits by James Clare, that we've talked about in multiple episodes before. 00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:52.239 But I love that we're talking about procrastination, not only from the Brook Castillo's self-coaching model perspective, which gives you a lot of awareness to the thinking process and the causal relationship between your thinking and then your feelings and actions and what it ultimately produces. 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.800 So you can see, oh, this is how I create procrastination. 00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.199 Then you have five different components you can work with. 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:07.039 With James Clare's atomic habits, four-part um habit formation loop, it's actually um almost just as interesting and fluid. 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:16.079 The very first thing that I think is probably the most interesting and maybe important part of that framework is actually not the response, it's actually the cue. 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:25.119 So the cue isn't just make it obvious or visible, unless you're talking about what is the immediate association that your mind has when you think of the thing. 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.239 So if you think of the medium article, that's the cue. 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:29.440 Think of the article. 00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:33.199 It's very useful to say when you're word blocked, right? 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:38.400 When I think of the article, what am I, what is what's immediately associated with it? 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:43.280 And your brain might say, like frustration, dread, whatever. 00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:48.000 And then you notice that association leads you to either paralysis or YouTube. 00:36:49.679 --> 00:37:00.639 Some of the very the easiest ways to really get excited about working through procrastination in a different way is to be able to see immediately how you can change the association. 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.159 What association

would you like with your medium article writing? 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:13.440 It would like, I would like it to be um I sit down for an hour and I no matter what, I don't get up because I'm working through the process. 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:21.599 I want that hour to be related to medium period because I don't want to keep reinforcing sit down to write medium article. 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:24.719 And then actually, what is associated with is YouTube. 00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:33.360 So medium article is associated with YouTube versus medium article is associated with laptop up and I do the wrangling, whatever is required. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:38.960 And then you can use different things to figure out do you know what you're you want to write? 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.599 What thing is making it hard for you to write, right? 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:53.039 And you're actually still actually engaged in the task versus avoiding the task and coping with that uncomfortable emotion with something that's um that's your avoidant or coping mechanism, right? 00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:01.679 So I think that's one of the most useful things for anything someone's procrastinating, it's procrastinating on, like a student who has a term paper. 00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.199 When you think of term paper, what's your immediate association? 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.679 And it could be like panic, right? 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:16.079 Which causes you to go to the cafeteria, get some coffee, get some snacks, and then maybe go on Instagram instead of necessarily writing your paper right away. 00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:19.519 What association would you prefer when you think of term paper? 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:27.519 It's like, okay, I actually want to give myself the experience of saying this term paper is due either tomorrow or three weeks from now. 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:50.400 I want to give myself the experience of breaking that down and then showing up in my laptop and doing the specific things that I said, or at least if I'm not, um if I am struggling, I'm staying actually engaged with it on the laptop versus where it's presently associated with um, think of the term paper, go to the cafeteria to get snacks and go to Instagram. 00:38:50.639 --> 00:39:10.079 It immediately starts to like give you this felt sense, like with the exercise we did at the beginning, the call, of the experience you want to have that you want to give yourself, because that's actually starting to really heighten your craving and reward components, which are the second and fourth steps of the habit formation loop. 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:11.840 So the cue is very telling. 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.400 You get to know, oh, no wonder why I keep avoiding it. 00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:15.840 It's associated with YouTube. 00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:23.519 You know, to give a concrete example, there was a time before I made decisions about who I want to serve, how I want to serve them. 00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:28.079 And part of the question was like, will I be teaching habit formation and the self-coaching model? 00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:30.880 Whereas my previous five years, I didn't. 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:34.480 I kind of felt like, well, I can't have people say this is how we're gonna work together. 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.039 We're gonna you know, develop mastering these things. 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:40.000 But this time I decided to say, yes, I'm seeing the gap. 00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:41.360 These tools will help you. 00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:42.960 This will be part of our process. 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:49.760 I am going to say this is what we're going to be gaining mastery in while we talk about your struggles so that you have these skill sets. 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:51.679 And I had to just sit say that. 00:39:51.920 --> 00:40:04.719 But before I even let myself give myself permission to do any of that, I would sit down at the dining room table, calling this my business building block from let's say nine to 11, and I would feel immediate fatigue. 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:07.119 I would sit down and I would feel exhausted. 00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.280 And I would say, oh my gosh, I need to take a nap. 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:15.679 And after a while, it became sit down, feel extremely tired, have to go take a nap. 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:24.480 And I started writing, I said, I don't want sitting down at the at the table to work on my website to be associated with having to take a nap. 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.639 So then that's when I really started thinking, oh, there is an association. 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:43.280 Now when I sit down at my website, my um the dining room table to work on business stuff, there's no fatigue, which is so well, usual life fatigue, but it's so interesting how those why was there fatigue before, if you really think about the motivational triad? 00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:57.360 Why would you expend energy to work on your website when historically nothing happens after the business building block is over? 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:01.360 You haven't made any decisions that would help you move things along. 00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:08.880 So if your brain notices that if you sit here and nothing is no progress is going to be made, why would you sit there? 00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:09.679 That's not efficient. 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.320 We're just gonna make you tired, you're gonna take a nap. 00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:13.679 That's much more efficient. 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:20.719 Does that explain any of the yeah, yeah. 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:38.480 I I can clearly see how um I think I was asking about behavior, and did we simplify the decision-making process which would make it easier than to work on the website? 00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:53.119 And you kind of went through each of the parts of the laws of behavior, and I think you've explained how you can have the same cue but change that association. 00:41:53.280 -->

00:42:06.400 Uh, and I wanted to chime in there because you know, you use the medium article, uh, the the cue might be I'm I'm stuck at this certain point, and then I typically associate that with YouTube. 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:14.320 Um, and I was thinking, yeah, same cue, but what I could do is borrow a page from my client Jane. 00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:22.880 Um, and and for me, the key is to interrupt right here at the queue and write it down and just write out my thought. 00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:24.400 I'm stuck. 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:27.119 This is hard, this could even be boring. 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:29.679 That comes up in my, for some reason, my mind a lot. 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.239 And I wondered this is just a general aside. 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:38.719 Are people not dealing well with boredom in life? 00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:46.239 And that's why we're seeking relief or dopamine from things like YouTube and social media, just an aside there. 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.119 I don't think I'm the only one who's doing this. 00:42:49.440 --> 00:43:07.760 Um, but so at the queue, my craving when I seek relief is typically YouTube, but instead, if I take a beat and write down, I'm feeling stuck, I might be able to be bored. 00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:09.119 This is hard. 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:11.599 This is the key here, this phrase, this is hard. 00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:13.519 Because I think it all comes down to this is hard. 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:19.119 And then to borrow from Jane's words, I can do hard things, and that gives me a sense of pride. 00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:39.599 And I think that is a different type of reward that would allow me to create a new type of association that would allow me not to go to YouTube anymore, but to continue on the project is that association with I can do hard things. 00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:43.199 So I appreciate you letting me work through that. 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:48.960 May I offer what you just said also that I think is really interesting, just to kind of really connect dots for people. 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:49.840 Yeah. 00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:55.440 So if you think about procrastination as a lack of um action towards the thing, yeah. 00:43:55.920 --> 00:45:30.159 And you think about these emotions or feelings, if you have a really strong craving the craving is kind of an unusual name but craving is like it has is associated with the cue the cue is like let's say for the writing right but but the craving is like what do you want it to be associated what do you want the internal state change when you think of the writing right and so the emotion of pride for for me or that I'm getting from you or for Jane the sentence I can do hard things feeling let's say gives you that energy of pride it is an energizing emotion it is an energizing emotion and energy is what drives you to take action if you have an um um emotion like heart if it feels hard um well this is hard might not lead to boredom this is

hard might lead to a different feeling when you think about the feeling is it energizing or actually does it feel heavy and does it actually keep you not moving does it create more inertia right that's just another way for people to really think about that that that so much of procrastination really is has that energetic component procrastination often in includes like you don't you're not using that energy to actually do the action but how can you create an emotion you know that actually does move you toward that action and for you pride seems to be one of those things. 00:45:30.559 --> 00:46:29.679 Yeah and I realize that I've been kind of mixing my models I asked you about the four laws of behavior and then I ended up in the model but but but you know because I kind of went Q and then to thought and feeling but um you know the cue of getting stuck and then the um craving of desiring some sort of relief typically leading to a response of doing YouTube uh if I change that wait wait wait wait let's finish that really quickly I think it's really important so you went to the first three reward would be I guess some sort of I would say dopamine perhaps well it would the reward would be it would whatever the reward is from YouTube to get relief from the feeling that's created because you thought this is hard the reward actually has to satisfy the craving so the if the craving is you want relief from that thing. 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:57.840 Yeah it is relief it is relief then is the reward and yeah what we what don't the reason why it's so important is because that is going to be that is the thing that is going to keep reinforcing and so when you talk about the pattern interrupt it's really good to see the whole pattern of Q craving response reward play out and then for us to know that anything that's changing is if we want anything to change then we have to have a different reward something that feels more rewarding than that. 00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:25.599 So you'll have a different craving reward combination to to so the can the craving be the same because I'm seeking relief from the uh being stuck having writer's block and so the you're seeking relief from the discomfort what what is that discomfort that you're feeling for writer's block right that this is frustrating. 00:47:26.320 --> 00:48:32.559 So the feeling of frustration so you're seeking relief from the feeling of that frustration inside your body okay got it right and so I'm trying to understand in the new pattern the new habit pattern that I'm trying to create the cue is the same I face writer's block and then I'm trying to create a different craving well what I'm trying to understand am I trying to create a different craving am I still seeking relief when I say I can do hard things do you see what I'm following I'm trying to understand I do and this is yeah I do and this is so fascinating um and I feel like this might be several conversations long but the first thing I might say is um you can absolutely have a craving of relief yeah or even absence for me what I deeply desired was the absence or relief from procrastinating or the absence of all of the energy that I spend procrastinating I wanted to actually do the thing I wanted to give myself the experience. 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:56.320 That was the deep craving so when I talked to my daughter about like how this played I was like do you think it was an emotion that you wanted to do this thing or do you feel like it was a deep deep desire to have the absence of the usual emotions that created it and she said oh definitely the absence that can be like that could be a deep craving the relief is like a relief from the same usual pattern that you always follow. 00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:57.360 Do you see what I'm saying? 00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:20.159 I see okay yeah and I and I see how that works for you and I'm trying to apply it to me I wonder if the craving is if the outcome the re the the behavior is actually writing the thing right we know that it's not progress then the craving uh which we understand is the motivation or desire is I can do hard things. 00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:22.559 It's well it's an internal state change. 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:22.960 Right. 00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:36.719 This is the emotional component remember that um before James Clear um he borrowed Charles Duhig's model which was only three steps right and it was it was the the the cue and then the routine what you do and then the reward and James Clear said there is definitely an emotional component. 00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:47.840 So the craving is like this deep desire to have that emotional inner whatever the internal state change is and I think it's I can do the hard thing like that that to me is emotional state change. 00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:58.400 Got it okay so that creates that that's the crave that's the desire right because that's also the that's also the T line right I think those I've always come I've always thought craving was the TF in the model. 00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:04.000 I think you I think you might be right it's like the energy because it is that emotional state change got it got it that makes sense. 00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:15.599 Yeah that makes sense right because the C is the Q is C circumstance in the model and then the craving to me is the motivation desire which comes from the thought feeling in the model. 00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:16.079 Okay. 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:39.920 And then everything else mirrors right because the reward the response is the A line in the model right and then the reward is the result in the model yes well no I don't think I I don't I don't necessarily I don't I see what you're saying and also it's a um they track and they they to me they're a little bit different but I see what you're saying. 00:50:41.199 --> 00:51:11.280 Because the reward reinforces I guess the so the reward becomes associated with the Q and I remember once some time ago I said when you

design a habit really well the Q becomes the reward yeah and so when you talk about like the for you what I might say is if you have writer's block and I and again we can always question if that actually is a true C, right? 00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:58.639 If you're talking about the model but if you have writer's block then the response in the the four the four the four um part of the habit loop yeah yeah well I was just thinking is it confusing that we're I'm kind of mixing but the response wouldn't just be I'm writing it still takes cognitive energy what are you writing what you know do you have it maybe that's part of what you do is if you don't part of the response might be if I don't know what to write I'm going to um decide on the actual topic or if I don't know what I'm going to write I'm going to spend this is part of your response line I'm going to open a blank Google Doc and just brain dump everything that I think think this article should be about. 00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:10.800 So then you have something so instead of just like the word writing you would have very specific things that require zero cognitive energy um to do when you're faced with the R line. 00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:36.079 The reason then the reward would be that I can do hard things look I stay engaged with the task I'm not jumping away from it and then the reward becomes yes I can do hard things your your behavior of staying with it because you've broken down the response because it's actual things that you can do without thinking I can do hard things I did stay with it. 00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:50.000 And then the the cue which is your article becomes associated with um the reward or the reward becomes associated with the cue which basically makes it next time you get excited to do your medium article. 00:52:50.079 --> 00:53:02.960 It doesn't mean that you're not going to have difficulties but at least this time when you have difficulties you've made the response so specific and doesn't require brain power to think of what does that mean when I'm here that you will want to keep doing it and you stay instead of going to YouTube. 00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:07.440 It becomes actually a sequence that you do like Pavlov's dogs. 00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:30.800 This is very this is this can be more challenging than I'm saying it but actually if you look at it that way if you're going to train this new habit you're not gonna say Q, think of my medium article, but then have the thought I this is really hard um and then go to YouTube you're going to do Q, my medium article have the thought this might be really hard. 00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:52.400 But then the the thought that you think right next to it which might be the response part of your response is I can do hard things and it has an energy of pride and then you open you have this all written now you open your laptop you stay on your Google Doc and if you don't know what to write you have this list of things that you're going to do so

that you start knowing what to write and then that's the sequence that you follow and then you say this is the reward. 00:53:53.519 --> 00:54:03.280 I'm going to make an statement that you might not agree with but then I realize you can't disagree with it because I the statement starts off with my favorite. 00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:04.960 Yes. 00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:41.920 And you've kind of mentioned this a couple of times so I'm gonna tell you what I heard very specifically because my favorite law is number three which is make it simpler and in the two examples you gave me both in your website when you broke things down from website you know I'm waving my hands in the air to very specific questions in which you could solve you are at least what I believe is that third law making it simpler for yourself to carry out the A line and the model right the actions and then in my example you just gave me you said open up a Google Doc, have all these ideas right you're again simplifying things. 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:47.199 So it's very frictionless it's very it's much easier to perform the A line. 00:54:47.360 --> 00:55:00.559 Yes and and and so that's the five minute rule in procrastination right just try for you know a minute to make and then I think another thing is just find whatever is the easiest part of what you're gonna do and just do that first. 00:55:00.960 --> 00:56:12.880 So you cannot dispute that my favorite my favorite law is is is make it make it simpler law three which is how I started this conversation but we went into a really really good really good conversation and I wanted to kind of close loose ends at this point because I think um we did a I enjoyed the conversation with um the model the habits I do do hope it's clear for the audience I did mention beforehand maybe showing uh frameworks of how the motivational triad works with the four habits or the uh the uh laws of behavioral change from atomic habits and the model I think you did a great job of helping me understand a lot of different things the nuances here right we didn't go into why a reward is different than than the result but I love that idea that eventually the reward becomes the cue that inspires me because how am I going to get better at writing is when I have that association developed where I'm gonna therefore be excited to write this article because the reward is I can do hard things, right? 00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:15.760 So that is very very exciting for me. 00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:23.440 Is there any you told me not to ask this question is there any last things you want to ask because I probably do need to take off at this point. 00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:35.679 Yes but I'll let you know um that I I do feel it's energizing uh to you and that's the main thing procrastination doesn't have to be this big heavy thing we don't need to spend a lot of time in shame or anything like that. 00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:49.920 It's just really the idea is where do we want to experience our life differently and how can we use um various principles to really help ourselves understand our behavior and then turn that into making those areas moving and flowing again. 00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:51.039 So I love what you said. 00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:55.039 And we ended up with flowy perfectly flowing it is life flow. 00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:58.320 All right until next time Carrie thank you. 00:56:58.639 --> 00:56:59.280 Thank you so much. 00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:01.360 Have a great day thank you very much for tuning in. 00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:03.119 Okay take care bye bye bye