התמלול המלא של Unsafe Spaces | Let's Violate the World

hooking up with guys from 68 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:29.519 the bars, and he confirmed that after reaching out to friends, 69 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:32.360 no one in their friend group had seen nor heard 70 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:42.439 from Jason since he left the bar that night. The 71 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:45.560 second missing person's report that was filed with Tampa Pedee 72 00:05:45.560 --> 00:05:48.600 on the twenty second was for twenty six year old 73 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:54.759 Michael Wockles. Michael had recently moved to Tampa from Tarpin Springs, Florida, 74 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:59.120 about forty miles away northwest. He was working as a 75 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:04.240 waiter at Bahama Breeze. According to his former roommates, Michael 76 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.439 was a happy go lucky guy who'd recently reconnected with 77 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:11.600 his estranged mother and had begun dating again after a 78 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:15.720 breakup the previous year. They said that Michael had started 79 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.519 going out with men he'd met in internet chat rooms 80 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.920 and that it was something they worried about. But it 81 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:27.439 was Michael's new roommate, Fred van Denebel, who reported him 82 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.079 missing when he failed to return home from a night out. 83 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.800 According to reports, Michael was last seen in his red 84 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:40.160 nineteen ninety two Jeep Cherokee leaving his Bay Club apartment 85 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:44.279 in Tampa's Rocky Point neighborhood between eleven PM and midnight 86 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:49.519 on December twentieth, almost twenty four hours after Jason Galehouse 87 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:55.399 was last seen leaving twenty six oh six. It was 88 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:59.240 unclear where exactly Michael was headed that night. He spoke 89 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.120 with several friends on his cell phone after leaving his apartment, 90 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:05.079 but only said that he was going out for drinks. 91 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:09.959 Michael's cell phone and jeep disappeared with him, and there'd 92 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:13.000 be no signs of Michael nor any major leads in 93 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:25.000 his case for two weeks following his disappearance. Now, there 94 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.439 are a few different things at play in the production 95 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:32.279 of this podcast. For one, I am a gay man 96 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:35.560 around the same age Michael and Jason would be now, 97 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:39.720 so it's hard not to experience this investigation or see 98 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:45.879 the people involved through a personal lens. Second, and more critical, 99 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.480 the only way to discuss this case holistically is to 100 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:53.720 share as best I can the gay experience and gay 101 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:57.879 culture written large. It's a defining factor in both this 102 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:02.560 story and in the spaces we'll discussing, and despite how 103 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:08.279 media often portrays it, homosexuality is not a monolith. So 104 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:11.399 throughout the season, I'll be playing conversations I've had with 105 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:14.720 gay men across the country and of all ages about 106 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:19.879 their experiences and how those experiences have defined their relationship 107 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:25.199 with homosexuality, their relationships with other gay men, and their 108 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:29.079 identity as a whole. This is a part of a 109 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.840 conversation I had with an old friend, Eric Schmidt, about 110 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:39.240 drug and alcohol abuse amongst gay men. Drug and alcohol 111 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.320 abuse runs pretty rampant within the gay community, or at 112 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.120 least it did when you know, when we were. 113 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.840 I think it's I think it still does, and you know. 114 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.120 I for me, I can only imagine that that comes 115 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:58.080 from or I will speak for myself, like when I 116 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:05.840 have over in or putting myself in risky positions with substances. 117 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.480 It was because I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin, 118 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:18.080 or I had self loathing or lack of confidence and 119 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:23.120 was just afraid and needed something to take my head 120 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:27.519 away from my body. I guess yeah, And I wonder 121 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:29.720 if that has been your experience as well. 122 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:38.000 I absolutely, I would say absolutely. I think I think also, 123 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:43.840 you know, again going back to that, like we don't 124 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:46.279 we don't date as teenagers, we don't learn how to 125 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.159 form intimate relationships with people as teenagers, and then drugs 126 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:54.120 and alcohol sure do make that easier. I think a 127 00:09:54.159 --> 00:10:01.639 lot of my drug use was was very wrapped up 128 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:09.759 in the perceived intimacy of either getting high with somebody, 129 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:11.919 using with somebody. The sex that we were going to 130 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:20.440 have while we were while we were high absolutely went 131 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:25.159 hand in hand with me being able to move into 132 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.080 a sexual space that I you know, didn't get in 133 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.919 the shallow, into the poolong. That's always. 134 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:39.879 All growing up, you know, being gay was bad,

Gay 135 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:41.919 intimacy was bad, Gay sex is bad. 136 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.360 If you yeah, it's going to kill you. It'll kill you, or. 137 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:48.159 You'll get gay bashed. It's God will hate you. Your 138 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:52.159 parents will leave you. Like, at least in the eighties 139 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.559 and nineties, like everything that was hammered into by everyone 140 00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:59.519 around you for the most part was that being gay 141 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:03.440 and having gay sex and having gay relationships was only 142 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:09.320 going to lead to heartbreak, death, trouble, and so yeah, 143 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:14.159 like being intimate in any way or vulnerable with other 144 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:16.639 gay men was terrifying. And I think for me that 145 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.080 was like I need to be drunk to be in 146 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.000 this space because I can't acknowledge what this space represents. 147 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:31.039 Yeah, and unfortunately, I you know, that got me in 148 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.600 trouble when I when I got to San Francisco, my 149 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.480 my drug use absolutely got me in trouble, and it 150 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:46.159 slid out of control very very quickly, and was tied 151 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:50.080 to the first time in my life that I felt attractive, 152 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.320 the first time in my life that I was starting 153 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:56.960 to understand myself and my body sexually. It was just 154 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:03.720 unfortunate that so much that was tied up in drug use. 155 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:09.639 But it was the drug use that made me comfortable 156 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:14.440 enough to figure myself out. Unfortunately, then I had to 157 00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:16.639 figure out how to get out of the the drug use. 158 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.159 It's interesting you saying, you know, the first time you 159 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:26.960 felt attractive. Like I remember moving to San Francisco very young, 160 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:30.720 I think it was eighteen, and thinking I'm going to 161 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:34.279 finally have my gay community, Like this is a space 162 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:38.440 where I can be safe and have like a brotherhood 163 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:42.320 and share experiences and everyone knows what I've been through, 164 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.080 and so we're going to look out for each other, 165 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.639 and like you can find that, or I was able 166 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:51.120 to find that, But mostly what I felt was a 167 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:55.279 lot of the things we're talking about, like predation, bitchiness, 168 00:12:55.440 --> 00:13:01.360 people like sub categorizing or subculture ring and other ring 169 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:03.440 every gay person they could. You know, gay people like 170 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.519 to put people in boxes. And it was just like 171 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:12.000 the predation in particular was like I had never felt 172 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:15.360 sexy or attractive because you know, whether girls knew I 173 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:17.639 was gay or not, I think their spidy senses were 174 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:22.000 always up. And so it was like, you know, I 175 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.519 had never felt wanted or attractive until I was around 176 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:32.200 gay men. But a lot of that was applied through 177 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.200 what felt predatory or you know, I'm going to hurt 178 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:40.279 you so you can't hurt me, and so then like 179 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:45.440 you know, you internalize that as like the only way 180 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:49.360 I can be attractive is if someone's like taking my 181 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:51.840 control away from me, or taking my power away from me, 182 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:52.960 or treating me like shit. 183 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:59.639 Yeah, the things that I think the things that like 184 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:02.120 the pop teenage girls go through in middle school and 185 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:10.000 hopefully figure it out. But yeah, and I don't mean 186 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:14.799 to laugh about it. It's just what you describe is 187 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.200 is what I think is taken away from so so 188 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:24.240 many queer people is that you don't have the formative years. 189 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.600 This stuff just isn't there. And then by the time 190 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.360 it happens, you're old enough that you have access to money, 191 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.000 and you have access to alcohol, and you have access 192 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:39.679 to drugs, and and just it all gets I think 193 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.559 for so many gay, gay men or queer people, it 194 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.720 gets really jumbled up. And I think for a lot 195 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:48.440 of us it takes a long time to come out 196 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:54.399 the other side of them and see ourselves as like 197 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.039 who we really are. We see ourselves as the attractive 198 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.240 person that we are, the giving, the generous, the sexual, 199 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.919 the you know, all of all of the things that 200 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.840 we can be. And you know, it's unfortunate that sometimes 201 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:13.720 these realizations come really late in the game. I mean, 202 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.279 I look at pictures of myself in my New York years, 203 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:18.519 in my twenties, in my early twenties, my late teens, 204 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:20.639 in my early twenties, and I'm like, who is an 205

00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:23.919 adorable little boy? Why was he not dating? Why was 206 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:24.799 he not out there? 207 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:24.960 Like? 208 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:32.200 How did I not? How did I not know how 209 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.720 valuable I really was? And at forty eight years old, 210 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:40.840 I could look back as as somebody that is mostly sober, 211 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.879 that you know, is in a stable relationship. I look 212 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.200 back and I'm like, oh, that poor kid, Like I 213 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.519 wish I wish you didn't have to travel through all 214 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.600 the bullshit you were going to go through before you 215 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.000 got to this point. Well, and how could you know 216 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.759 your value if you know all of society was telling 217 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.360 you you had none? Right. 218 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:14.080 The first significant lead in either case occurred on January 219 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.919 sixth of two thousand four, just several weeks after Michael 220 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:22.200 and Jason were both reported missing. On December twenty second, 221 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.720 Michael Wocholtz's red Jeep Cherokee was discovered parked at the 222 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.679 Camden Bay Point Apartment Complex, a Memorial highway on the 223 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.840 outskirts of Tampa between Old Tampa Bay and the Tampa 224 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:38.600 International Airport. A passer by had noticed that the jeep 225 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:41.440 had been parked near the leasing office for quite some time, 226 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.720 and upon further investigation, they saw what appeared to be 227 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:51.519 a body in the trunk, and sure enough, when Tampa 228 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:55.960 police investigators arrived, they found the decomposing body of a 229 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.399 man wrapped in a sheet in the trunk of the jeep. 230 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.839 It took several days to confirm that the body was 231 00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:12.480 in fact, Michael Wachold's. An autopsy was conducted on January seventh, 232 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:17.200 but due to the state of decomposition, the medical examiner 233 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.480 could not determine a cause of death. People feared that 234 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:29.799 they may never know what happened to Michael. Investigators were 235 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:33.920 fairly conservative about not jumping to any conclusions regarding whether 236 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:39.000 this proved that Michael's death was a homicide, but what 237 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.960 they were certain of was that someone else had to 238 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:46.480 be involved. Someone had to have dropped Michael's car off 239 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:51.759 at that apartment complex. Two theories emerged amongst the general 240 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:57.000 public and media, one that Michael had been murdered, and 241 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:02.200 two that Michael had overdosed on drugs and that someone, 242 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:05.759 out of fear and hoping to remain anonymous, drove his 243 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:11.279 jeep and body to the parking lot. Tampa police were 244 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.920 also careful not to jump to any conclusions connecting Michael's 245 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:19.640 death and Jason Gailhouse's disappearance. The lead detectives in each 246 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.599 case continued to share information with one another, but had 247 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:28.119 no strong evidence connecting the two cases. Lastra and to 248 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:32.319 block the two lead detectives in Jason's case continued canvassing 249 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.359 the gay areas of Tampa, interviewing Jason's friends and family, 250 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:42.079 and eventually looking into other Tampa crimes that could be connected. 251 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.559 And soon those three tactics would align in a way 252 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:51.200 that changed the investigations into both Gaelhouse and Wokle's dramatically. 253 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:01.599 On January twenty eighth of two thousand four, Tampa Peedee 254 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:05.160 pulled missing persons reports for two other local cases of 255 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:10.519 missing gay men, James Mark Shoemaker and Bradley Lee Williams. 256 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.240 James Shoemaker was last seen at a Tampa gay bar, 257 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:20.119 the Parthenon, on October twentieth of nineteen ninety five. James 258 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.960 was thirty years old at the time, and much like 259 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.759 Jason Galehouse. On the night that James disappeared, he had 260 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.720 been driven to the Parthenon, so he didn't have his 261 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:35.519 car with him. Unfortunately, no one recalled seeing him leave 262 00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.480 the bar that night, and he's never been seen nor 263 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:42.519 heard from since. James was reported missing several days after 264 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:47.119 he was last seen. Extensive air service and K nine 265 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:52.039 searches were conducted in the investigation into James's disappearance, and 266 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.440 numerous potential witnesses were interviewed, but there were no signs 267 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:01.279 of James, nor was there any solid information reguarding his whereabouts. 268 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.920 Bradley Lee Williams was last seen on June eighth of 269 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.039 two thousand and one near the sixty three hundred block 270 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:16.319 of Southwest Shore Boulevard in Tampa. The

following day, he 271 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:20.440 missed a shift at his job at the local post office. However, 272 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:24.400 according to the Charlie Project, Bradley wasn't reported missing for 273 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:26.960 over a week and a half after he was last seen, 274 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.000 due largely in part to his friends and coworkers assuming 275 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.480 he'd just quit his job. But when his family didn't 276 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:38.640 hear from him on Father's Day June seventeenth, nine days 277 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.920 after he was last seen, they knew something was wrong. 278 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.640 After several attempts to get a hold of him, they 279 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:51.720 reported him missing to Tampa PDE. When police arrived at 280 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.680 Bradley's house, it was clear that he hadn't been there 281 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:58.279 in quite some time. His two cats and pet parakeet 282 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.640 were on the brink of starvation. In the search of 283 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.680 his house, police found Bradley's wallet and cell phone and 284 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:12.079 determined that his car had disappeared with him. Tampa PEDI 285 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.640 eventually recovered his car, which had been abandoned in a 286 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.759 strip mall parking lot on Kennedy Boulevard and Tampa, about 287 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.599 a block down the street from the Metropolis Gay Club. 288 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:27.400 Bradley was thirty years old, six foot two, and weighed 289 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:31.000 approximately one hundred seventy pounds at the time of his disappearance. 290 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:35.680 Both Bradley Lee Williams and James Mark Schumacher's cases remain 291 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:43.319 unsolved and have gone cold. In going through those records 292 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:47.400 and several other police reports involving Tampa's gay community, Tampa 293 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:51.680 PEEDI compiled a list of ten individuals and requested driver 294 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:56.279 and vehicle information and criminal histories for all ten. Three 295 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.079 of those names were redacted from the files sent to us, 296 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.799 including one which was marked deceased with a notation that 297 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:10.039 his death was under investigation by Tampa Homicide. Two were 298 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:15.240 Bradley Williams, and James Shoemaker four were Tampa area gay 299 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.599 men with a history of drug and alcohol related charges, 300 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:30.519 and the tenth was Mark Allen Thompson. Mark Alan Thompson 301 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:34.039 was thirty years old when he disappeared from Clearwater, Florida, 302 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:38.119 a coastal city just twenty five miles west across Tampa 303 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:43.000 Bay from Tampa. Mark was last seen just after midnight 304 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.359 on November one of two thousand and one. He was 305 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:49.880 leaving the Pro Shop Pub, a gay bar on Cleveland 306 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:55.359 Street in downtown Clearwater, after celebrating Halloween there with friends. 307 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.880 Mark's mother, who he was living with at the time, 308 00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:00.680 reported that he'd never made it home home that night. 309 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:05.759 The following evening, the night of November one, she reported 310 00:23:05.799 --> 00:23:08.000 him missing after he failed to show up to work 311 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:13.279 that day. Four days later, Mark's nineteen ninety eight Ford 312 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:17.000 Ranger pickup truck was found abandoned at an undisclosed location 313 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:21.440 in Tampa. Mark was never found, and his case remains open. 314 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:28.880 Between nineteen ninety five and December of two thousand three, 315 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:33.160 police determined that there were at least five unsolved missing 316 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.039 persons cases involving gay men who were last seen in 317 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.279 or near Tampa area gay bars, and in the midst 318 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.799 of their investigations into the disappearances of Jason Galehouse and 319 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.559 Michael Walkole's Tampa peade, were starting to wonder if these 320 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:54.839 disappearances could all be connected and it wasn't just these 321 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:59.839 missing persons cases. There was talk amongst Tampa's gay hustlers 322 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.640 of horrendous assaults and sex work gone terribly wrong. 323 00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.920 These chats give a glimpse into the minds of Scott 324 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.799 Schweipert and Stephen Lorenzo. The chats lay out their ideas 325 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.880 and their plans, and their desire too, as they said, 326 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:29.279 quote pray on the vulnerability of their victims. Most importantly, 327 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:34.440 your honor will hear from Master Scott himself, Scott Schweibert. 328 00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.920 He'll tell the court how he and mister Lorenzo were 329 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:43.599 linked together by Limit Expander, that is the screen name 330 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.759 of an individual who linked these two gentlemen together. You 331 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.480 will learn how their friendship, if you call it that, progressed. 332 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.680 You'll learn that mister Lorenzo considers himself to be the 333 00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:03.680 experienced bondage master, and that mister was a novice. Both men, 334 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.519 through the course of their we'll call it

relationship from 335 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.880 October to December of two thousand and three. Ultimately had 336 00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:15.200 the same goal. They wanted to find unsuspecting young men 337 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:20.519 who were alone in bars. They befriended them and then 338 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:23.960 invited them back to Stephen Lorenzo's house, which was on 339 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:28.000 Powhattan Avenue within the city of Tampa, for some drinks 340 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:35.359 and a conceptual bondage session. However, mister Schweikert and mister 341 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:39.319 Lorenzo had different plans. Once the young men were to 342 00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.480 get back to mister Lorenzo's house, they were going to 343 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.839 and I quote from the chats, use and abuse them 344 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:50.400 to see how far mister schweiker and mister Lorenzo would 345 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:54.480 go and to see how well they would work together. 346 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.240 On January twenty seventh of two thousand four, Tampa Pedee 347 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.680 detective John Columbia made his way to a local church 348 00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:19.000 on Kennedy Boulevard, several blocks from Metropolis, the gay club 349 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:24.640 where Bradley William's car was found after he disappeared. Columbia 350 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:28.359 was looking for a gay man who went by Cubo, 351 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:33.279 a man who frequented the church for free lunches. There 352 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.000 had been talk around the gay hustler scene that Cubo 353 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.000 and a friend of his had been attacked by a 354 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:41.920 man that they'd each gone home with to have sex 355 00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:49.200 in exchange for drugs. According to a bartender at the 356 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.480 gay bar Kikiki, Cubo and one of his friends were 357 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:57.240 gay street hustlers, and each of them had a separate 358 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:01.680 encounter with this man who picked them up, offered them drugs, 359 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:07.160 took them home, and then assaulted them. He beat them, 360 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:15.880 raped them, and covered their faces with saran rap. The 361 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:19.359 bartender told Cubo and his friend to report the incident, 362 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:23.920 but they refused, citing their own criminal histories and a 363 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:30.599 general fear of the police. When Columbia discovered that Cubo 364 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:34.079 had left town for the day, he continued returning to 365 00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:37.279 that church daily and hopes to track him down and 366 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.440 get the full story. On the twenty ninth, while he 367 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:43.240 was at the church for the third day in a 368 00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:46.119 row looking for Cubo, he got a call from an 369 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:50.039 unknown man. The man told him that he met an 370 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.000 Italian man at Club twenty six O six on a 371 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.839 Saturday night in May of two thousand three. After talking 372 00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.279 for a while, the man agreed to go home with 373 00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:04.000 this Italian man. They drove in separate cars to his house, 374 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:06.720 which was near the save a lot on West Hillsborough 375 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:12.960 A in the Seminole Heights neighborhood of Tampa. The caller 376 00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:16.440 told Columbia that upon arriving at the Italian man's house, 377 00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.440 he was poured a glass of wine and they talked 378 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:24.000 about their lives while sipping that wine, and then he 379 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:29.000 blacked out. The next thing he remembered was waking up 380 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:32.599 at six am, naked and tied to the man's bed. 381 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:37.119 When he asked to be untied, the man told him 382 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:42.000 that he wasn't free to leave, and then he said 383 00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:45.839 that he was going to take his car park it 384 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:49.400 in a random parking lot and that no one would 385 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:55.359 ever find him. The man kept him there tied to 386 00:28:55.400 --> 00:29:01.000 the bed for eleven hours, and then, without any theatrics, 387 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:07.799 he simply untied him and let him go at five pm. 388 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:11.039 The caller described the man as short, with a white 389 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.359 car and an Italian sounding name. He said the man 390 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:22.160 told him he'd previously been self employed as a handyman. Fortunately, 391 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.559 the caller had the wherewithal to write down the address 392 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:28.599 of the house as he was leaving that night. He 393 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:32.799 told Columbia that the man lived at two thirteen West 394 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:37.079 Powaton Avenue and that he could certainly pick him out 395 00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:42.599 of any lineup. He also told Columbia that he'd previously 396 00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:46.200 reported the incident to detective to Bloc that he wanted 397 00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:52.480 the man prosecuted, but nothing ever came of it. After 398 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:55.400 the phone call and the stories about Cubo and his friend, 399 00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:59.839 Columbia began going through old police reports involving assaults in 400 00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:05.319 the Tampa gay community, and he found drug facilitated sexual 401 00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:08.839 assaults of at least four men reported in the Tampa area. 402 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:13.599 Police had several

different suspects that they were looking at 403 00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.680 for these assaults, one of whom was a man well 404 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:21.880 known in Tampa's gay BDSM scene, a man named Stephen Lorenzo. 405 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:29.000 And it turned out that Stephen Lorenzo lived at two 406 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:36.359 thirteen West Powaton Ave And then the other thing, which 407 00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:39.839 maybe you could help me with it, because I'm I can't, 408 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.440 you know, it's hard not to project while I'm doing 409 00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:45.559 this just as a gay man. 410 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:46.240 Oh so. 411 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:50.319 You know, I wonder and it comes up with keys too, 412 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:58.599 like is there an anti LGBTQ culture at play here? 413 00:30:58.799 --> 00:30:58.880 Like? 414 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:05.960 Is there a self loathing internalized homophobia at play the 415 00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.720 idea of gay men targeting other gay men, Like there's 416 00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:12.359 two obvious buckets. One is that's because who they're sexually 417 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.480 attracted to. The other is it's some sort of internalized homophobia. 418 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:20.039 Well, you know, you and I have a bit of 419 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:25.039 a generational difference in our ages, and it's you know, 420 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.039 a question like that requires me to do some discernment 421 00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:34.960 while also respecting the intersection of identities. 422 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:39.799 This is doctor Scott from the La Not So Confidential podcast. 423 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.920 He's a licensed clinical psychologist who works in forensics with 424 00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:48.640 law enforcement in Los Angeles. He specializes in identity development 425 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.839 and specialized populations. You'll be hearing more from him throughout 426 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.400 the season, But this is a conversation we had in 427 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:59.319 our pre interview about how to communicate about gay culture 428 00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:00.759 and BDSM. 429 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:07.680 I only think that the generation that's maybe post twenty 430 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:11.119 five years, what would that make them sillennials, those are 431 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:15.000 probably the ones that have more of a tendency to 432 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:20.759 be free of internalized homophobia. My generation nobody got away 433 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.079 from it. You know, even even my friends and colleagues 434 00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:27.359 that are like have been like. Even those that are 435 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:33.200 driven by activism and driven by you know, reclaiming the 436 00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:34.759 word queer. 437 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:34.640 And. 438 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.000 That doesn't just because you inhabit that space doesn't mean 439 00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:42.640 that you're free of internalized homophobia. In fact, you may 440 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:47.920 be running away from it in that way versus running 441 00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:51.920 to it. But that being said, I don't know if 442 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.480 that's the driver here, and that falls a little bit 443 00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:00.359 into it leans a little bit more towards And this 444 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:02.839 is no reflection on what your question is, but like 445 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:06.039 sort of the junk science we had about the schizophrenogenic 446 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:08.759 mother when we used to say, well, if the male 447 00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:11.559 child did something, or if the male child is mentally ill, 448 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:15.680 it's mom's fault, right, Yeah, So there may be something 449 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:19.359 that plays at it, but I would tend more especially 450 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:26.079 you know, psychopathy trumps everything, you know it just like 451 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:28.960 when psychopathy like there is in Lorenzo, when it's that 452 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:33.680 high a level, there's no room for internalized homophobia because 453 00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:37.519 he doesn't have a functioning amygdala or a functioning medulla 454 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:42.200 that processes the Lindix system messages about empathy and compassion. 455 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.680 He's like give a shit, yeah, so he's not going 456 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:47.119 to be hampered by it. So if that's something that 457 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:48.960 you'd like if that's a kind of a response, then 458 00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:51.880 I can offer. I'm happy to do that. 459 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:54.640 Yeah, I think for me, like I've been spending a 460 00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:57.279 little bit of time trying to paint a picture of 461 00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.400 gay culture and how it in many ways is a 462 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:06.640 product of societal perspectives. I just don't know if that's 463 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.440 a feudal device or not in this Well. 464 00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.039 It could be for the victims, yeah, I mean I 465 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:16.599 think that that'd be because it is a rarefied environment 466 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:22.760 which those victims were found, right, Yeah, and that you 467 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.719 know part of I mean I would say this, I like, 468 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.800 with these crimes only being a couple of decades old 469 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.239 rather than fifty or sixty years old in the gay 470 00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:35.320 community that existed at that time, which was very very 471 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.320 drug driven. Now there's a lot less drugs involved or 472 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:45.639 chem sects in the BDS now. But look there, and

473 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:50.400 this may be this may be too much for your audience, 474 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:54.119 but a lot of what drives this I think, I mean, 475 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:58.039 I won't speak for the women and the lesbians that 476 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:02.480 have their own version the BDSM community, but there's so 477 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:04.800 much of this that has to do with daddy issues, 478 00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:09.000 so much of a josh you know, like that idea 479 00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:15.440 you know, even kids today. I say when I say kids, 480 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:20.760 when younger generations today have more freedom and efficacy in 481 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.840 exploring their sexuality, they don't have the baggage that I have. 482 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:28.360 There's still something that's about a child in that developmental 483 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.679 period knows that they are different, and they know that 484 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:36.320 they're different because it's just because kids are smart. Toddlers 485 00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:38.880 are smart, and they pick up if there's something that's 486 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.199 not quite the same about them and the way their 487 00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:48.280 gaze looks at other individuals around them, and parents consciously 488 00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:51.840 or unconsciously pick up on that and then they replay 489 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:55.960 consciously or unconsciously all that back to their kids. So 490 00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:59.360 my experience as a clinician is that so many of 491 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:03.840 these people are are working out. Look, every relationship we 492 00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:07.199 have is working out family. It's working out family baggage. 493 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:10.480 There's no escaping it. Right. But within the leather community, 494 00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:14.559 you know, you'll hear this among guys, it's like, well, yeah, 495 00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:16.920 I'm the daddy, but you know, even daddies need daddies, 496 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.159 And you know, it just goes on. There's this like hierarchy, 497 00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:26.159 not hierarchy, but there's a chain of attempts at reparenting 498 00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:31.559 by using these tools of bondage and discipline that you know. 499 00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:35.800 I think it ends up being a version of sexual 500 00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.480 alchemy for the people that participate in it, whether they 501 00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:40.159 realize that's what they're doing or not. 502 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:48.719 Now, it's important to paint a picture of Tampa in 503 00:36:48.760 --> 00:36:53.239 the late nineties and early odds, and an even broader 504 00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:58.039 picture of gay culture at the time. Throughout the nineties, 505 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.679 Tampa peed was under fire or what the ACLU called 506 00:37:01.800

--> 00:37:08.400 discriminatory police stings which targeted gay men. They accused the 507 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:12.599 police force of using entrapment tactics to arrest gay men 508 00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:17.440 and then use those arrests for publicity. And that is 509 00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:20.639 just a microcosm of how gay men were treated by 510 00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:26.039 law enforcement and society writ large. At the time. Police 511 00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.480 and cities across the country seemed to quietly adopt a 512 00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:34.679 tough on gaye policy, and assaults on gay men weren't 513 00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:41.079 generally taken seriously, if they were even reported. The relationship 514 00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:45.360 between the gay community and law enforcement was fraught at best. 515 00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:51.079 Gay men rarely felt safe reporting any gay related crimes 516 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:57.480 to the police, and while society's views on homosexuality were 517 00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:02.039 very slowly changing, much of the trust had been completely 518 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.400 eroded by the gay bar raids of the sixties and seventies, 519 00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:09.760 the complete dismissal of the AIDS crisis in the eighties, 520 00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:14.599 the denial of basic human equality from both the church 521 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:23.079 and the state in the nineties and onward. So Stephen 522 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:26.039 Lorenzo felt he could operate in the open and with 523 00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:33.519 impunity because he'd essentially been told by society that he could. 524 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:38.159 But the gay community always rises up. 525 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.960 We thought we knew what it all looked like. We 526 00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:49.440 were looking out on the greatest view. We were raised 527 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.440 to take a stemp. We were always to keep a 528 00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:57.719 note them mind. We believed we just say alone through 529 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:03.480 I'm one hundred miles an hour, sitting in my palace 530 00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:08.119 without any power, alone in the dark. We're known in 531 00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:12.800 the dark. I thought we could always try a bit harder. 532 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.400 But if the dice don't want a roll in your favor, 533 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:21.719 it falls apart. The fantasy falls apart, And this is 534 00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:27.280 oh fantasies, And time is up, down, dully and on down. 535 00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:34.559 It's very a trivy road. Hoppen save bres from on 536 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.639 the doors a million it. I heard you better on 537 00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:43.800 your own, But I ain't gonna face this i'n't need you. 538 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.760 This episode was written, researched, edited and produced by Me 539 00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:53.800 Your Host Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Kaz Resources. 540 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:58.800 Included the Charlie Project, Nameless uncovered, the clear Water Police Department, 541 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.920 the Tampa Bay t and the Tampa Police Department. This 542 00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:07.039 episode featured Eric Schmidt and Doctor Scott from La Not 543 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:11.639 So Confidential. To support this investigation, go to Patreon dot com, 544 00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:16.639 slash Studio both and. This episode included music by color 545 00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:22.440 book Y has Calrez, Ronite yourtomagm and Rasberg with featured 546 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:24.480 music by Joseph Salvat. 547 00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:30.480 Voices were forgotten. All the tracks were given up only 548 00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:35.159 for moment. No, it was no near enough but a 549 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:38.920 take it as it comes, that take it as up 550 00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:44.400 only can. Let's take it all and run worth it goes, 551 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:53.239 because this is a fantasisons duntuli and on downs very 552 00:40:53.360 --> 00:41:01.400 of a turvy road. Open sabreds from the oh a millionaire. 553 00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.960 I'll put you better off on your own? But am 554 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:09.840 I gonna face this? So I've been needing you. I 555 00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:15.239 don't know we with them putting the skin together, putting 556 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:18.760 the skin together, I have been eating you. 557 00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:21.840 And I don't know you will eat me? 558 00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:24.440 Where did the stains together? 559 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:26.920 Put the skin together? 560 00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:50.719 So we need you? So I've been needing it. 561 00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:53.599 I don't know that the. 562 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.239 Putting the skins together, putting. 563 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.360 The stain together. I believe you. 564 00:42:03.159 --> 00:42:06.400 I don't know you believe images? What are the stime 565 00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:07.400 to get others? 566 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:09.440 What the stage? 567 00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:10.960 So? 568 00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:15.440 I mean, I don't know about the images. 569 00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:20.719 But it's staring together, but it's shame together. 570 00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:22.760 Now believe. 571 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.719 I don't know it willie images. What is it sign 572 00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:33.360 to get the others? What is said together? So he's 573 00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:33.519 you